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zona967
12-03-2012, 05:04 PM
My Sun conjunct Saturn with an orb of almost 10 degrees. The conjunction is applying and takes place in my 8th house in Placidus, equal houses and Regiomontanus. The question is which planet is stronger.

Arguments in favour of the Sun:

1) Saturn is under the Sun's beams. Does that mean the Sun annihilates it altogether? If it does, is that good or bad bearing in mind Saturn is a malefic?
2) The Sun rules the fire triplicity.

Arguments in favour of Saturn:

1) Saturn traditionally rules the 8th house.
2) Saturn is the participating ruler of the fire triplicity.
3) The South Node is considered by Ptolemy to be the exaltation ruler of Sagittarius. My South Node is in Libra (Saturn's exaltation). If the South Node is taken as the exaltation ruler of Sagittarius, that further weakens the Sun as Libra is the Sun's fall.

Which planet would be considered stronger bearing in mind the above?

The placements are as per Western astrology.

Thank you.

tsmall
12-14-2012, 01:51 AM
My Sun conjunct Saturn with an orb of almost 10 degrees. The conjunction is applying and takes place in my 8th house in Placidus, equal houses and Regiomontanus. The question is which planet is stronger.

Arguments in favour of the Sun:

1) Saturn is under the Sun's beams. Does that mean the Sun annihilates it altogether? If it does, is that good or bad bearing in mind Saturn is a malefic?
2) The Sun rules the fire triplicity.

Arguments in favour of Saturn:

1) Saturn traditionally rules the 8th house.
2) Saturn is the participating ruler of the fire triplicity.
3) The South Node is considered by Ptolemy to be the exaltation ruler of Sagittarius. My South Node is in Libra (Saturn's exaltation). If the South Node is taken as the exaltation ruler of Sagittarius, that further weakens the Sun as Libra is the Sun's fall.

Which planet would be considered stronger bearing in mind the above?

The placements are as per Western astrology.

Thank you.

Stronger with regard to what exactly? Are you trying to determine if Saturn or the Sun are somehow malefic in your chart? Or are you trying to see if being under the beams will affect the houses the two rule?

Would you mind posting the chart? It could make answering the question easier.

zona967
12-14-2012, 06:09 PM
Hi, I want to see which planet is stronger than the other in the conjunction and what that would lead to.

I wonder if Saturn being under the Sun's beams debilitates it significantly indeed (and hence weakens the houses it rules and produces a somewhat malefic influence over the planets Saturn forms an aspect with such as Jupiter).

At the same time, it is said that Saturn rules the 8th house. Could that lend him some protection from the Sun's beams? The Sun is stronger in Sagittarius than Saturn is, however, the 8th house is the domain of Saturn much more than it is the domain of the Sun.

It's like a mirky swamp (the 8th house) with a not-so-strong swamp witch (Saturn as participating ruler of fire but having no other essential dignity) ruling over it but at least being home while the Sun being a somewhat strong king ruling the fire triplicity has no business in the domain of the swamp witch.

So can the somewhat strong king annihilate the swamp witch on her own territory and what would that lead to? Or if not, how badly can the swamp witch hurt the king and therefore the house it rules?

Thank you.

tsmall
12-15-2012, 10:44 PM
Hi, I want to see which planet is stronger than the other in the conjunction and what that would lead to.

I wonder if Saturn being under the Sun's beams debilitates it significantly indeed (and hence weakens the houses it rules and produces a somewhat malefic influence over the planets Saturn forms an aspect with such as Jupiter).

At the same time, it is said that Saturn rules the 8th house. Could that lend him some protection from the Sun's beams? The Sun is stronger in Sagittarius than Saturn is, however, the 8th house is the domain of Saturn much more than it is the domain of the Sun.

It's like a mirky swamp (the 8th house) with a not-so-strong swamp witch (Saturn as participating ruler of fire but having no other essential dignity) ruling over it but at least being home while the Sun being a somewhat strong king ruling the fire triplicity has no business in the domain of the swamp witch.

So can the somewhat strong king annihilate the swamp witch on her own territory and what would that lead to? Or if not, how badly can the swamp witch hurt the king and therefore the house it rules?

Thank you.

It's an interesting question you have here. The short answer is that the Sun is stronger in the conjuntion. The real problem lies in that Saturn, who is in hayz, should be working for the native. Unfortunately, he is under the beams and with no dignity. Abu Ma'shar says that Saturn under the beams "is like a lion which throws itself out of its den and kills whomever it meets." And Ibn Ezra says "a planet under the light of the sun is like a person in prison" and "has no strength." Notice that with whole signs Sagittarius is the 9th house, placing the Sun in its joy.

Looking at the square from Jupiter to Saturn, Jupiter is separating from Saturn. I am by no means an expert (and if there is one reading comments would be appreciated. :smile:) but this says to me that even though Jupiter rules Saturn he isn't able to help much due the nature of a square aspect and because Jupiter is not pushing his nature to Saturn. At the same time, Jupiter is still beeing fairly well struck by a functionally malefic Saturn. Because Jupiter is in the 12th (a not so great place to be) this being struck could have some negative implications for the houses he (Jupiter rules.)

JUPITERASC
12-15-2012, 11:17 PM
....Saturn he isn't able to help much due the nature of a square aspect and because Jupiter is not pushing his nature to Saturn. At the same time, Jupiter is still beeing fairly well struck by a functionally malefic Saturn. Because Jupiter is in the 12th (a not so great place to be) this being struck could have some negative implications for the houses he (Jupiter rules.)
Saturn has not dignity and is therefore peregrine

Expert Deborah Houlding has this to say, based on ancient sources http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig4.html : '...A planet with no essential dignity is called Peregrine, a Latin word meaning 'alien' or 'foreigner' (pereger = beyond the borders, ager = land, i.e., 'beyond one's own land'). In old English, to 'peregrinate' means to wander far from home. In symbolic terms, a peregrine planet describes a drifter - someone with no title or stake in his or her environment. Property owners tend to view drifters with suspicion, and distrust their lack of stability. Peregrine planets share this dubious reputation. Under normal circumstances a peregrine planet lacks the necessary strength to convey lasting benefit...'

Saturn therefore is not only weakened by being 'under the beams' of the sun but is also additionally weak due to having no dignity.

Jupiter is therefore being challenged by a weak Saturn :smile:

Of the two, Jupiter is the more dignified because Jupiter is in own sign of Pisces. However, due to being located in 12th, Jupiter is unable to act much. Therefore the matters of houses ruled by either Jupiter or Saturn are likely to experience challenges as a consequence

zona967
12-15-2012, 11:52 PM
It's an interesting question you have here. The short answer is that the Sun is stronger in the conjuntion. The real problem lies in that Saturn, who is in hayz, should be working for the native. Unfortunately, he is under the beams and with no dignity. Abu Ma'shar says that Saturn under the beams "is like a lion which throws itself out of its den and kills whomever it meets." And Ibn Ezra says "a planet under the light of the sun is like a person in prison" and "has no strength." Notice that with whole signs Sagittarius is the 9th house, placing the Sun in its joy.

Looking at the square from Jupiter to Saturn, Jupiter is separating from Saturn. I am by no means an expert (and if there is one reading comments would be appreciated. :smile:) but this says to me that even though Jupiter rules Saturn he isn't able to help much due the nature of a square aspect and because Jupiter is not pushing his nature to Saturn. At the same time, Jupiter is still beeing fairly well struck by a functionally malefic Saturn. Because Jupiter is in the 12th (a not so great place to be) this being struck could have some negative implications for the houses he (Jupiter rules.)

I find it very hard to be objective when looking at my own chart (Mercury square Moon?) I suppose if it was somebody else's chart I would reach the same conclusion that that Saturn is a bad guy and causing problems but since it's my own chart it's nooo, nooooo, don't take Saturn away pleeease!

But yes, it's under the beams, and according to some sources combust, in the Moon's face in the sign of Saturn's detriment, peregrine and yeah, that's a bad guy. He's the participating ruler of fire but don't know how much strength can be given to that. So I see that a bad guy in a square to Jupiter can harm him.

The fact that Jupiter rules him, however (and in a square the two planets see each other very well), suggests to me Jupiter has granted Saturn the authority to keep Jupiter in the 12th house. That sounds weird but it's just what comes to mind. It's the only dexter aspect in the chart so effective but at the same time separating.

It's like a hidden Saturn (combust) whipping Jupiter every now and then, like an ungrateful student whipping his master. Jupiter would be forced to take it though, as you say, having little way out of the 12th house. It's like a good guy in a bad place ruling over a crooked servant and requesting to be kept locked for some reason.

The way out may be Venus as an exaltation ruler of Jupiter (and depending on the rulership scheme also triplicity ruler), but oh my, what a Venus that one is? She's basically more evil than Saturn being in detriment, retrograde and peregrine, but quite active as being in the 7th house. In any case, Jupiter will decide on his own being is his own domicile, term and face, but that over-crooked Venus does seem a way out of the isolation. However, no mutual reception here either, Venus might remain oblivious to her effect on Jupiter (or is it the other way around?)

Back to Saturn, I do have problems with authority figures as a weak placement would suggest. And a person once told me that I search for authority figures to explain to them why they are no good, haha. So yes, problems in the 10th and 11th houses and also the 7th as Saturn is the exaltation ruler there. The main ruler is in detriment, retrograde and peregrine, the South Node is also there and it's getting too much.

Thanks for the analysis, more ideas come to mind so it's good food for thought. :)

Edit: I just read a planet on the right generally dominates a planet on the left, argh. No hope for that Jupiter it seems.

tsmall
12-16-2012, 01:01 AM
Thanks for the analysis, more ideas come to mind so it's good food for thought. :)

Edit: I just read a planet on the right generally dominates a planet on the left, argh. No hope for that Jupiter it seems.

You're welcome, for what it was worth.

I would hesitate to say there is no hope for Jupiter. I didn't spend a lot of time with your chart, but keep in mind that there are other things to consider. Cadent (in 12th) doesn't mean Jupiter has no power. It means he has no energy--oomph to get going. So he needs to get a push from something. That could come through profections, as an example, when he is angular for the year.

Since I see Sun/Saturn as being in the 9th, with Jupiter in 12, I have a question...have you struggled not just with authority figures, but also with spirituality or religion? Venus may not be the only "way out" for Jupiter.

zona967
12-16-2012, 12:27 PM
I am by no means an expert

'Competence, like truth, beauty and contact lenses, is in the eye of the beholder.' - Laurence J. Peter

have you struggled not just with authority figures, but also with spirituality or religion?

That's a complicated issue for me. I usually gather information from various sources and work on compiling a belief system from there. I don't go with any one standard religion but I believe there's a lot of wisdom in all of them if one is willing to think, compare and contrast the sources, rather than just parrot what they've read. Overall, what I've read has helped me make better decisions in life I believe.