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Yoi
03-24-2007, 07:36 AM
I was wondering if anyone had any info on the Part of Fortune and what its aspects and house position and sign mean? I am interested as my Sun and PoF are closely conjunct (1 degree) in the 7th house, Sag. It is also very closely (20 minutes) Jupiter and more loosely (3 degrees) squaring Mars. It is the close aspect to the Sun that interests me most. I figured that since it is conjunct the Sun, it must have some significant influence in my chart.

Bob
03-24-2007, 09:24 PM
Hi Yoi,

Aspects to the Lot of Fortune are not really read the same as planetary aspects, for example a dexter square to Jupiter is far better than a trine to Mars. The Lot of Fortune is the ascendant of an equal house Fortuna system; if your LoF is 10 degrees in Sagittarius then the Fortuna 2nd house is 10 degrees Capricorn and so on. Some of the most important factors with the LoF are the type of sign it is in, the closeness of it to an angle using whole sign houses, and the condition of its lord (ruling planet). It is preferable to have ones LoF angular, in the sign of a benefic and aspected by its lord from a favourable position. Conjunctions (especially to the Sun) can be very favourable, but they can also be the most malefic of aspects too; all depending upon the natal condition of the planet or light involved. If your LoF is angular it will be very active and it states that beneficial opportunities will be mostly seen when transiting planets and/or time lords are moving through the angles in your natal chart. The same applies to succeedent houses, favourable times are more active during all succeedent transits etc, and the same applies to mutable houses. It is very hard to read the LoF out of context as the lord conditions are the defining conditions of the Lots activity.


Regards


Bob

Yoi
03-25-2007, 05:09 AM
Thanks Bob,

Can you point me to any info about how to work out what's going on with the PoF? I'm worried about the fact that the Lord of the sign it is in (Sag) is almost exactly square the PoF. But you say that a square from Jupiter is better than a trine from Mars. That seems very strange, why do you read the Fortuna aspects different from normal aspects?

I'm also confused when you talk about the houses and angles. Do you mean the normal houses and angles or do you mean the Fortuna houses and angles? Working from the Fortuna houses, the Sun (Sag 11 deg 37') I guess would be in the 1st Fortuna house conjunct the Fortuna Ascendant (PoF Sag 9 deg 47') and Jupiter (Virgo 9 degree 28') would be in the 9th Fortuna house conjunct the Fortuna Midheaven. In the normal chart, Jupiter is in Virgo and the 4th house. The PoF and Sun are in the 7th house though not aspecting the normal DC. Are the Fortuna or normal houses more important?

Moonshine
03-25-2007, 10:01 AM
Hi everyone

I have been reading these posts and am interested in the P o F in my chart - it is in Pisces conjunct Jupiter in the 10th house can anyone tell me what this means.

Moonshine

Bob
03-25-2007, 10:19 PM
Hi Yoi & all,

Unfortunately most of the information about the LoF on the internet is misunderstood, that is according to the reasons for its original use. It most certainly is not the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow that most people think it is, neither is it specifically lucky or fortunate. In my earlier posts I have made other relevant remarks about it you may want to check. I will give a brief account of what it represents and how it works, but first a note.

Note:

The Lot of Fortune is measured from the Sun to the Moon in a diurnal chart, and the Moon to the Sun in a nocturnal chart. The Fortuna house system should be used with ‘whole sign’ houses.

To set up a Fortuna chart first one has to find the LoF ascendant, this is the degree of what people commonly refer to as ‘the part of fortune’. You say your LoF is 9 SAG 47 and you are correct in saying that this is your Fortuna ascendant or first house cusp. The LoF by sign indicates a special interest to us personally, and as yours is in Sagittarius it indicates that broadening your horizons will be of special interest to you. You may do this though drink, drugs, travel to places of splendor, higher education that may concern philosophy, culture, language, law or religion (many other things too) etc.

I am assuming your LoF was arrived at by the diurnal/nocturnal method as mentioned above. If not, this information will be applicable to a completely different lot.

If your LoF is in the 7th house natal house you interests would like be attained in social situations such as colleges, universities. It might also give more weight to the social sciences as a particular interest to you personally. If your LoF has any connection to your love life you will most likely find a partner and/or very good friends that could help you achieve the things you are after at study centers or other social advancement institutions. It would certainly give a liking for social gatherings in general.

To construct a Fortuna chart what you need is your natal chart with all the major planets entered, but no house cusps. With your 9 SAG 47 Fortuna ascendant you can begin to mark off equal houses at 9 SAG 47 in each sign. For example, your second house would be 9 CAP 47, your third house would be 9 AQU 47 and so on around the wheel.

[Note]
In doing the above we now come to a slight debate area; some astrologers say the house cusps are defined as the borders of the houses, and others (myself included) believe the cusps to be pointers to the sign of that particular house.

As your LoF is in Sagittarius, any planet in Sagittarius is in your first Fortuna house (which is an angular house). Any planet in Capricorn would be in your second Fortuna house (succeedent). Any planet in Aquarius would be in your third Fortuna house (cadent), and so on around the twelve houses. After completing this you need to look at what planets are angular for they are the strongest planets in the Fortuna system, succeedent planets are fairly good but cadent planets are weak in respect to general fortune. The reason for my saying that a square to Jupiter is far better than a trine to Mars is as follows: The Fortuna chart strength lies in its angles, if the malefics are angular then ones fortunes are tied up with ones disappointments and good fortune in general will require much work. If on the other hand the benefics are angular, ones opportunities come more frequently, and are much more noticeable. Therefore, if Mars makes a trine to the LoF he must be in a succeedent house, and not as strong as an angular Jupiter. Strictly speaking aspects per se are/were not used in delineating ones LoF, the most important factors are angular, succeedent or cadency.

I should mention that malefic planets can be made totally benefic by their overall natal condition, in much the same way benefics can be made malefic by their natal conditions too.

Once you have set up your Fortuna chart, the next step is to see where it fits into your natal chart. What you are looking for here is to see how active it is and what signs are being signified by your LoF. To make it easy, all you really need to do is use your LoF ascendant. Again, I would use ‘whole sign houses’ for the natal chart but feel free to use whatever system you choose. Is your LoF in your first house, second house, third house and so on? If your LoF is in an angular house it will have quite a high significance in your life. Yoi, your LoF is in the 7th which is an angular sign and therefore there will be a lot of significance between its condition and your life when its ruler is a chronocrator of the general times. In your chart it is in a mutable sign so it is generally more active in directions and time lord transits when any of the planets are moving through the mutable signs.

Now we have a basic sketch of the strength of the LoF and the signs where fortune will be active in your chart. It is now time to see how these times can be mapped out according to your life. Your LoF is in Jupiter’s sign, and Jupiter has a cycle of twelve years. This makes Jupiter the LoF significator for the first twelve years of your life. If you check back into your chart you should see between the ages of 1-12 where Jupiter’s ingress/direction/transit/station through the cadent signs has links to events in your life during his time lord period. After twelve years Jupiter hands over the reigns to the ruler of the next zodiac sign, this in your case is Capricorn.

Here is another area where there is some controversy; Saturn’s great period is 57 years of which 27 years are given to Capricorn and 30 years to Aquarius. Some astrologers would suggest that the years should be reversed, or Capricorn and Aquarius should receive the same time period by dividing the major period in two giving 28.5 years to each. I personally favour the former giving 27 years to Capricorn and 30 to Aquarius.

From the age of twelve Saturn has taken over as chronocrator for the distribution of fortune for 57 years although in its general periods you have a Capricorn Saturn first and an Aquarius Saturn after. The difference between these two Saturn periods are; one is nocturnal and the other diurnal and this relates specifically to the condition and sect of Saturn in your personal chart.

Aspects:
When it comes to aspects to the LoF, there is far more to them than the geometric angles. To a certain extent the Fortuna chart can be read just like a natal chart as long as the sect, phase, topical house and general condition of the aspecting planet are taken into account. A Jupiter in trine to the LoF ascendant could be significating a lottery win or a very fortunate life, but it could also be suggesting a disposition to cancer. One has to be very careful about the condition of the aspecting planet because ones fortune can be good or bad, this is something people often forget when delineating the LoF. There is no fatalism here, just openness to the fact that fortune is a double edged sword.

You say your LoF ascendant is conjunct your Sun, and in a general sense the Sun represents fame, honour and rank as well as children and a family. The Sun sets his goals then goes for them, he wants recognition and to be seen in places where high society might notice him and give him a helping hand. He sets his own rules which make him suitable for leadership. These things are for the most part stated by the house and sign the LoF ascendant occupied at birth in the natal chart. My aim here is to demonstrate a method in assessing the LoF as one cannot make deductions without taking into account his entire condition within your chart. Hopefully this will give some pointers on how to examine the LoF.

One final note is if the LoF ascendant falls in Taurus, Libra, Sagittarius or Pisces it is ruled by a benefic planet, and because of this a certain amount of luck, help or opportunities will come their way. Another thing that some of you may want to investigate is the tenth house from the LoF ascendant, this is because it represents the height of ones fortune in the same way the tenth natal house reflects our reputation based upon the actions we have taken.

Finally, there are sub-lords of the Fortuna system which are divisions of the times allotted to the general time lords, these show the unfoldment of what is going on during the general time lord periods. It cannot be explained very easily without going into a lot of detail and a great deal more time. If this article has wet your appetite for further investigation into these detailed times I would suggest visiting projecthidsight.com.


Best regards


Bob

Yoi
03-27-2007, 03:05 PM
Thanks a lot Bob! Looking at my 10th Fortuna House I have Jupiter right on the MC but I also have Mars and Saturn. So it looks like I have a benefic and both malefics in the same angular house.

hvnlystarz
03-30-2007, 08:58 PM
this post hasn't been active for a while- but i was wondering about part of fortune aspects in synastry. specifically one's north node conjunct one's part of fortune...?

astro.teacher
03-30-2007, 10:51 PM
this post hasn't been active for a while- but i was wondering about part of fortune aspects in synastry. specifically one's north node conjunct one's part of fortune...?

All conjunctions to the North node are similar to a conjunction with Jupiter, except of course the Moon. Now where you are most fortunate in this relationship with this person is defined by the House placement.

Pisceanfool
03-30-2007, 11:14 PM
What does it mean when it's square MC, quintile Saturn and 4 deg. conj Mercury? (among other loose aspects, see chart in sig) In pisces, 1st house and Neptune is relativly unafflicted compared to everything else, Jupiter has some not so good aspects but is angular (Sag. Midheaven). Sorry to use ur thread, but there really is a lack of info on the PoF.

Bob
03-30-2007, 11:19 PM
Hi all,


Libra20
Could you comment on my PoF? I've been told that I don't get much benefit from it because most of my aspects are oppositions.


It is very hard to say anything other than the basics without seeing it within the context of your natal chart.

I've been told that I don't get much benefit from it because most of my aspects are oppositions.

That it not strictly true because, oppositions are angular in relation to the Lots own position.

Mine is in H12 in Pisces. It opposes my Venus, the Moon and South Node.

Before I can say anything I need to be sure the method you used to create your LoF is compatible with my remarks about it. This is not just because you may have calculated differently, but more because I do not want to mislead you by anything I say.

The LoF and the LoS are partners and the rule goes that if ones LoF falls in a cadent natal house then the LoS should be in a succeedent house because of their equal distance from the ascendant. As a cadent house is weaker than a succeedent house the LoS would be used as a guide for events happen in ones life in relation to opportunities, this is because we use our strengths over our weaknesses. This rule applies to all cadent houses except LoF in 9th very close to the end of the 9th natal sign, or in the 3rd very close to the end of the 3rd natal sign.

When you say yours is in house 12, is your twelfth house sign the same as your ascending sign, the sign before or the sign after it?

When you say yours is opposite Venus and the Moon, because neither Venus nor the Moon are inherently malefic in nature the worst they normally bring would be overindulgence on your part. Venus and the Moon in opposition to your LoF mean they are angular (7th LoF house) in relation to your LoF which for these two planets can be quite good for you. There is a certain amount of guess work here because I cannot see where and how they fit in to your natal chart. Sign, house and aspect are about 1% of the Lots significance.

If I am understanding your description of the Fortuna house system correctly, then my Venus, Moon and S. Node oppositions to the PoF fall in the 7th fortuna house and the N. Node in the 1st fortuna house. Although, I am a bit confused in your example to Yoi when you say that any planet in Sag would be fortuna H1. Wouldn't it have to be after the fortuna ascendant.

You are quite correct in your first sentence but I think you may have misunderstood my answer to Yoi by your final sentence above. To answer your last sentence; no, the whole sign is considered the first house, not above or below the ascendant like a planet rising. Because Yoi calculated the LoF to be in Sagittarius ‘any’ planet in Sagittarius would be in the LoF first house.

My transitting North Node is in an applying conjunction to my PoF. It will be exact on May 3rd. My progressed PoF is also conjunct my natal PoF.

People often say ‘progressed or progressions’ when they are in fact referring to Secondary Progressions, this can cause confusion because when the ancients referred to ‘progressed’ they were actually referring to varying methods of directions. The reason this is important is because secondary progressions were exactly that (secondary); meaning they came ‘second’ to various directions. Trying to define ones future by relying upon secondary progressions, solar arcs and transits is a somewhat crude modern invention when compared to the finer astrological techniques.

I also read this description of the H7 PoF on Arlene Kramer's website:
The person with his Part of Fortune in the twelfth house has a unique opportunity to transform or dissolve his own Karma.

In relation to the first sentence, if someone could dissolve their karma in this lifetime they would have reached karmic perfection (not possible) and therefore no need to live another life; all life has karma.

This is a person who has mediumistic talents and the gift of prophecy. His dreams often give him answers. His flair for spirituality, mysticism, illusion, and fantasy can be productive in film, television, and works of fiction.

This is usually shown by a strong water element and the appropriate natal positioning. The rest is nonsense because they are referring to the LoF and trying to connect it with things it has no signification over. The last four words of the above paragraph are very apt.

Though he may not know it when it happens, his enemies will frequently change their attitude from hostility to neutrality, and sometimes even to benevolence.

I would love to see the proof of this because there just cannot be any. Benevolence is primarily a matter of sect conditions and as I stated earlier; if the LoF falls in a cadent house, the LoS is used instead. Kramer is clearly referring to the LoF as the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, it is not.

He is generally unaware of his good fortune. The person with his Part of Fortune in the twelfth house is treated well by health-care professionals.

I could show you many charts of individuals who have the LoF in 12th and were treated badly, or even died through negligence of the health service? Again, Kramer is seeing the LoF as ‘good fortune’ changing anything it touches into something beneficial… Totally untrue, one of the reasons it was given the name ‘fortune’ was that it describes ones wealth and happiness, not a ‘magic part’ that made all life’s woes better.

btw - in the link you mention, you forgot the "n" in projecthindsight.com.

Sorry about that, it is time for me to service the laptop because it keeps doing it lately.

I went to the website. So, Hellenistic astrology is Hermetic?

I will answer this question with the link to Robert Schmidt’s description on the PH website; he does it far better than me.

http://www.projecthindsight.com/articles/hellenistic.html


Yoi,
Thanks a lot Bob! Looking at my 10th Fortuna House I have Jupiter right on the MC but I also have Mars and Saturn.


You’re welcome. Jupiter in the 10th Fortuna house is generally very favourable with regards to fortune, depending upon its condition and rulership it could have the capability to bring much happiness, good health any many favourable opportunities your way. If you do have a combination of the benefics and malefics angular in the Fortuna chart, it would show that you have a few open manhole covers to step around along with the bouts of good fortune. Are Jupiter, Mars and Saturn all in the same sign?

If either of you want to post or pm me your natal data I could be a little more specific.


hvnlystarz,
i was wondering about part of fortune aspects in synastry.


The Lots can be used in synastry but they would need to be delineated natally first. As a general rule you can consider the LoF as a kind of lunar connection, not like the Moon but like a kind of possible good ‘we click’ point.


Good Wishes


Bob

Mikey279x
03-30-2007, 11:40 PM
what would you say about the Part of Fortune in the fifth house along with sun,mercury,venus and mars..

I have

Lof square pluto and
Lof square Moon??

Sag Moon
03-31-2007, 12:25 AM
There is an Arabian part for just about everything. Aniother Part that is important os the Part of Spirit that most do not include or even look at.

Mine iis in the 8th and is peregrin which I do not consider much.

Robert Hand did a cpmplete aaysis of them.

I consider the Moons Node alot more important to look at.

The PoF is considrered where you might get lucky and I do not consider anthing to be luck.If you have read the bible it was shown to me long ago that there is no such thing as luck so i consider it a point where we might experience the flow of energy or lifes experiences to be the most beneficial.

So if it falls in the 5th then your creative side might come most natural or if afflicted find that rewards come through hard workbut they come just the same.
Another way to put it talent through creative endevors.

I have mine in the 8th so it could denote benefit through regenenrative energies. To transformative ability.

The Parts are some of the hardest points to get something out of IMO as they were hels in high esteem by ancient astrologers,but are lesser used in modern astrology.

Like I said Rob Hand has done alot of research into them and it may be worth doing a search into what he has writte about them.

Yoi
03-31-2007, 05:30 AM
[COLOR=blue][FONT=Verdana]You’re welcome. Jupiter in the 10th Fortuna house is generally very favourable with regards to fortune, depending upon its condition and rulership it could have the capability to bring much happiness, good health any many favourable opportunities your way. If you do have a combination of the benefics and malefics angular in the Fortuna chart, it would show that you have a few open manhole covers to step around along with the bouts of good fortune. Are Jupiter, Mars and Saturn all in the same sign?


Hi Bob,

Yes, Jupiter, Mars and Saturn are all in the same sign (Virgo). I'm assuming that the position of the house cusps act as a house marker and then the whole sign that cusp is in is in the same house? So the 10th Fortuna House cusp is at around 10 degree Virgo, so all planets in Virgo are in the 10th house. Is that correct? The N. Node is also in Virgo, though I'm not sure that matters when talking about the PoF.

Virgo is not a good sign for Jupiter. I think it is in detriment there. And it's stuck with the two malefics, Mars and Saturn as well so I guess that fortune will not be so great. Oh well, I guess I'll just have to try harder :) Anyway I will PM you my birth data.

Thanks very much for your help on this issue Bob. It is very difficult to find any good info on the web about the PoF. The site you point to looks interesting though...

Bob
04-02-2007, 10:09 PM
Hi everyone, (Yoi & pisceanfool)


Yoi:
Yes, Jupiter, Mars and Saturn are all in the same sign (Virgo). I'm assuming that the position of the house cusps act as a house marker and then the whole sign that cusp is in is in the same house?


Absolutely, in topical hellenistic astrology the cusps are merely pointers to the sign, the houses are the signs themselves.


So the 10th Fortuna House cusp is at around 10 degree Virgo, so all planets in Virgo are in the 10th house. Is that correct?


Yes, spot on. 10th Fortuna house.


The N. Node is also in Virgo, though I'm not sure that matters when talking about the PoF.


Because the nodes have many different meanings to different astrologers it can be an area of much debate, for this reason I do not delineate them publicly. However, to the best of my knowledge I have not heard that they cannot be used, and in fact I am pretty sure they were.


Virgo is not a good sign for Jupiter. I think it is in detriment there. And it's stuck with the two malefics, Mars and Saturn as well so I guess that fortune will not be so great.


This is a little tricky to explain because so many conditions interact with the planets and angles, malefics can have their effect reversed (please see answer to pisceanfool below this answer to you).


Anyway I will PM you my birth data.


I have not had time to collect my pm's yet but I will collect them as soon as I can. Also, I will pm my insights back to you unless you tell me you are happy for me to post them on the forum.

The same applies to anyone where personal requests are concerned.


Pisceanfool,

As you have your chart/natal data posted I am able to demonstrate how the Lot of Fortune is basically read within the context of your chart. This will help you start to understand how it works in your own chart and help others to understand how it can be read in their own charts.

First a note about what you think is your LoF based upon the calculations at astro.com. It seems they may be using the diurnal formula for both day and night births which is wrong, alternatively there may be a setting to reverse the formula; I do not use the online services so I have no idea. Your LoF is 23Cap44 in your 12th natal house. As I stated in an earlier post, when the LoF falls in a cadent house (relatively weak) its partner the LoS is used to find favourable times because it is usually more favourably placed by natal house. This does not mean that the LoF is ignored completely, just that the Lot of Spirit is usually the more fortunate of the two and is placed in a stronger (more prosperous) place.

In a diurnal chart the LoF is measured in longitude from the Sun to the Moon, the longitude degrees between them are added to the ascendant. For example; if one has a 10 degree Aries Asc, the Sun at 10 degrees Taurus and the Moon at 10 degrees Gemini, the distance from the Sun to the Moon is 30 degrees. This 30 degrees is added to the ascendant of 10 degrees Aries + 30 degrees = 10 degrees Taurus. The LoF in this situation is therefore at 10 degrees of Taurus.

The difference in a nocturnal (night time) chart is that the degrees are measured from the Moon to the Sun, instead of the Sun to the Moon.

I do not want to confuse anyone but generally speaking the Lot of Fortune in a diurnal chart becomes the Lot of Spirit in a nocturnal chart, and vice-versa.

Pisceanfool,

Because your LoF is placed in an unfortunate house, a releasing of its times would show particular periods to be on your guard because luck and help would not be on your side during these times. Your LoS is at 2Pis46 in your 2nd house. One of the main uses of the Lots is for timing events as promised by the natal chart. Because a complete delineation is necessary to accurately predict what non changeable fates are waiting for you, where and when, I can only show you how to integrate it within the context of your natal chart; it will be up to you to do the work. What I can do is give you one or two significations and an appropriate method for you to do it yourself, I do not like to tell fortunes because I believe it is possible to adapt or change the way we react to a certain situations which means we are continuously remoulding our ‘changeable’ moira (fate).

The first condition is if a Lot is natally angular it is strong, if it is succeedent it can eventually bring rewards but is not nearly as strong as being angular; if it is cadent it may have too little strength to produce any major beneficial events, except in very rare circumstances. Your LoS is in your 2nd house in Pisces; this suggests that when directions and transits that are current time lords are occupying the mutable signs (your natal succeedent houses) these times will be generally favourable to you in that they will be providing opportunities which could be beneficial to you. Whether you take advantage of these opportunities is another matter, but knowing when they are working for you is half the battle.

Your LoS being in the 2nd (natal) house is not the best place for it though it can eventually be profitable for you. Materially, it gives a strong inclination to achieve some financial security; you will often notice that when you have your pockets full it will give you a kind of emotional happiness. However, it also suggests that money will go through your hands like water, you need to be careful about any investments you make, and you need to put a little money aside when possible. Spiritually it shows a duality in your nature where you can be unsure about when to make your move, you are probably also aware that on occasion you may feel like you are two people trapped in one body. This is partly where you get some social hesitancy from (inherited).

Jupiter is the ruler of your LoS and is placed in his own sign, this brings in some good fortune and it will be responsible for providing you with your share of positive opportunities to increase your income, and general well being. Jupiter in your chart is out of sect which means he finds it difficult to produce or attract benefits that directly come back to you personally. You may find that you can bring a little luck to the people you associate with but have a hard time making it for yourself. Jupiter has a nice dexter sextile to Venus (conjunct LoF) and so offers the prospect of a financially secure future and a long term partner but the square to Saturn will demand that you work hard for it. If you keep spending your money on luxuries and other overindulgences you may find it running out before the next payday quite often. As Saturn is your ascendant ruler, the LoF dispositor and in superior position to all of your 2nd house planets he will have a lot to say about how easy or hard these things are to acquire. He is also contrary to his sect, we can therefore see that he is imposing many limitations upon your financial successes, relationships with friends and feeling comfortable about your own spirituality.

When the Lots of fortune and spirit and their respective rulers are unfavourably placed they can be explored in depth to see where one may be going wrong, and then making necessary adjustments to life in order to give them a helping hand. Alternatively, we can look to the triplicity rulers of; 1) sect light triplicity ruler; 2) triplicity rulers of the two Lots. There are others but these are the main ones to start with.

Your nativity is nocturnal with the Moon in Pisces and the triplicity ruler is therefore Mars. He shows a slightly confrontational nature that can overpower and frighten away some of the people that might be good for you. You need to be aware of your motives and make them very clear or others will misunderstand your intentions and think you are trying to control them, even when you are not. Another thing that is likely to backfire on you is any playing of mind games at times when just straight forward actions would be more beneficial. This is especially important because Mars is the triplicity ruler of the sect light, your LoS and the exaltation planet of your LoF and Venus.

Lot of Fortune at 23Cap44:
Two of the LoF significations are good fortune and acquisition. As stated earlier, when the LoF is in a natal decline (cadent) its power to produce benefits directly to you are for the most part deflected away. However, the LoF is not totally without power to produce some good but we need to determine this from the lord of fortune and the position and condition of the benefic/malefic planets.

Firstly, your LoF ruler is the malefic Saturn and the first condition is his fitness or ability within your cosmic fingerprint. He is post ascending (succeedent) which means it has the potential to bring the fruits of your actions back to you, though it may not be immediate and may take a lot of work. He is rising and direct in motion which increase his overall fitness and masculinity which is important for a masculine planet. Saturn, in order to be cosmically permitted to pursue his own agenda must be able to be seen in the sky (rising) and direct in motion. As Saturn is in Sagittarius he is visible and in the place of a sect-mate, namely Jupiter. What this means is he loses some power to directly affect the things he signifies, but he can affect them and find outlet through his other sect-mates the Sun & Jupiter, if they are suitably placed. In plain English Saturn can affect the sign he is in, and the signs containing the Sun and Jupiter. This gives discipline to studies involving higher education and the higher mind (some foresight), creativity and some care in financial planning. It may be important to remember here that Saturn signifies old age; so much of this is describing what you may have achieved by then. As you are only young, you have your whole life in front of you, you will have many opportunities to grow, learn and adapt where by strengthening your cosmic weaknesses you can build a brighter future.

The second condition looks at the energy of Saturn, while he may have ability to affect matters one needs to know how energetic he is in pursuing these things. First on the list here is whether he has any connection to the natal ascendant, which in your case is yes by dexter sextile. Second is whether or not he is making a phasis. Because phasis has many considerations I cannot go into them here. Suffice to say in your chart Saturn does not make a phasis in the allotted time. The third consideration is the trigon inhabited by Saturn. Schmidt says the trigons act like a wind helping one towards his destiny. In his own trigon the wind would be behind pushing one forward and assisting us, in a cooperating trigon is like a neutral (slightly favourable) wind. A foreign wind is not necessarily bad for it just shows that one will visit many unknown destinations (unpredictable). Saturn in your chart has a cooperating wind, this means that the energy behind Saturn is blowing you in a favourable direction, maybe not at light speed but he is getting to his destination in a slow but steady way.

Next comes 3 ways of assessing whether that planet completes or breaks off the energy he has put into his actions. This first consideration is the planets relationship to the LoF houses. Saturn in your chart is in the 12th Fortuna house which is slightly unfavourable because it deflects away any positive actions from returning to you. This signifies that while Saturn in your chart has the ability to act and an appropriate energy level to perform, you may not hang around long enough to get the rewards you sometimes deserve. Alternatively, some other event may come up just when Saturn was about to give you his rewards, a bit like having the rug pulled from under your feet.
The second of these three conditions is lunar application which has to do with how long the effects of a particular action may last; applying would be long lasting, separating would mean moderately lasting or separated meaning of even shorter duration. In your case the lunar application is separating.
The third of these considerations is what quadruplicity Saturn is in. This consideration defines what happens to the significations initiated by Saturn; fixed is stable and long lasting, mutable indicates the actions would not be followed through to a completion, and cardinal indicate that what is started is later broken off.
Suffice to say, your Saturn occupies a mutable sign.

There are other conditions which determine whether the action initiated is good or bad for the native, or whether the malefics have been changed to benefics, or whether the planet has any joy by natal house. Heliacal rising, sect and aspects complete the investigation but I am pressed for time; I may add the other conditions at a later date.

Well, pisceanfool, I think it is reasonably fair to say Saturn suggests he has given you quite a hard time so far with some pretty tough lessons learned. The good news is that he is not in a hopeless condition; you are young enough to be able to reinforce his positive attributes and make a brighter future. Also, it would be wise to remember that this is only a little peek at what Saturn is up to in your chart. He is notorious for the stress he signifies, and this is partly why this investigation sounds a little harsh. There are quite a few other considerations as well as the other planets that have many beneficial significations; you might want to use this illustration to apply the same conditions to them. If you do, you will find how a chart integrates using this ancient system and learn a great deal about how the planets interact with one another generally.

These considerations are part of what Project Hindsight are calling ‘the System of Hermes’. It is an extremely intricate system for those who like to get their teeth into the finer points of astrology which I can highly recommend. Only a full and frank delineation is capable of showing what is truly important to a native and how well he/she might do in the important areas. The timing of events is done by adding up the ascensional times of the planets concerned, and the appropriate directions.


Good wishes


Bob

Pisceanfool
04-02-2007, 11:10 PM
Bob,

Wow thanks alot, alot of info and to be honest i will have to read it all again to really understand it all. I was wondering though how you got my 2 degrees Pisces as the 2nd house because even with the equal house systems it's in the 1st?? You seem to use some other system i am not familiar with. Still I definitly somtimes feel a duality... (although i used to be schizophrenic just not in the split personality sense untill lately) I have many conflicted desires(could be Mars oppos. Pluto as my bowl rim) on just about anything, and maybe it's just the strong neptune influence but i feel like a chameleon at times.

And yes i do feel like i don't recieve much "luck" in same cases personally, but overall i am pretty **** lucky (Jupiter in 1st i suppose). Although i have had some hard lessons compared to people i know in my subjective experience. And it sounds like i will have to work pretty hard for much benefit. I really don't care alot about money, i would rather have respect and recognition for my selfish desires at least... while bringing something of value to the world. Alot of numerology/astrology says i am here to be of service and i have always felt that way. Anyway, your interpretive style is very interesting and i would be grateful for any further info you would be willing to offer. You can PM or post it whatever you wish, i suppose people could benefit from reading about your interpretations.

Thank you again, and by the way you can change the POF based on AM/PM on astro.com. I thought since i was an AM baby i use the day formula and it made it at 2 Pisces.

Bob
04-03-2007, 12:11 AM
Hi pisceanfool,

Thankyou for your reply.


I was wondering though how you got my 2 degrees Pisces as the 2nd house because even with the equal house systems it's in the 1st?? You seem to use some other system i am not familiar with.


The house system I use is whole sign. As you have Aquarius on the ascendant, any planet or Lot/Part in Pisces is in the second house. The reason why you are not too worried about money is Jupiter is in and ruling the 2nd so I would not say you came from a poor background as Jupiter is conjunct the Moon in the 2nd indicates money in the family.


(although i used to be schizophrenic just not in the split personality sense untill lately)


Good sense of humour (strong Jupiter connected to both lights).


Although i have had some hard lessons compared to people i know in my subjective experience. And it sounds like i will have to work pretty hard for much benefit.


If you look at the position of Saturn he is in your 11th and squaring your 2nd. These seem to be the lesson areas, though I'm sure you are nobody's fool, I would lay money on you being a soft touch on ocassion.


I really don't care alot about money, i would rather have respect and recognition for my selfish desires at least... while bringing something of value to the world. Alot of numerology/astrology says i am here to be of service and i have always felt that way.


With half the solar system in Pisces (plus Pisces ruler Jupiter) you are quite spiritually evolved, and like I said, you are nobody's fool (well maybe your own, lol). Although I have not looked closely at your rx combust Mercury it would suggest that more often than not you know the answers to some things without knowing how or why (evolved).


I thought since i was an AM baby i use the day formula and it made it at 2 Pisces.


The manner of calculating the LoF is based upon the horizon. From sunrise to sunset is a day or diurnal chart because the Sun is visible. Because your LoF is in the 12th the LoS acts as opportunity bringer.

In your life the first 12 years are given to Jupiter, then the next 15 are given to Mars. Because you are in your Mars general period it is likely you will change home and job during this period. When you are 27 you will enter a Venus period for 8 years. Look out for positive transits from Mars for opportunities to come your way out of the blue.


Good wishes


Bob

SameeSadiq
04-03-2007, 01:09 AM
Hello Bob,
Very informative article by you. Thank you. I am always confused about my POF. Some sites say that it is in Scorpio at 05°15'28 in natal house 07 some say it is at Capricorn 00°33'00 in natal house 8. Probably it is due to morning/evening time of birth difference in calculations. If it is not inconvenient, can you confirm my POF for me. My dob is 6th feb 1963, at 12:10 local time in Rawalpindi (73e04, 33n36).
Thanks
Samee

Yoi
04-03-2007, 12:21 PM
Hi Bob,

Of course you can post the details of your analysis here. Sorry, I should have thought of that before PMing you.

Anyway I loved reading your analysis of PisceanFool's PoF. Wow it's rare to see such a detailed study! The astrology you are using seems quite different from "modern" astrology though. For example it seems you are only using the traditional rulers? How do the outer planets like Uranus, Neptune and Pluto factor in to the PoF?

Bob
04-03-2007, 05:59 PM
Hi all,


Pixiequix,
So what does it mean to have the Part of Fortune conjunct to the MC? In my Placidus house system chart the Part of Fortune is conjunct to my Midheaven at 11Aquarius.


I think Mr Zoller used the placidus house system in his book ‘Arabic Parts, the Lost Key’ though I am not sure he still would given the discoveries since that book was published. Personally, I only use the whole sign house divisions as laid down by the Hellenistic period astrologers, Valens, Dorotheus, Maternus, Ptolemy etc… However, Robert Schmidt has stated that for topics (areas of life) the Hellenistic period astrologers used the whole sign system but for strength of planets as related to the angles they used the Porphyry house system which Schmidt claims was probably invented by Valens. However, I am not convinced that any of the quadrant house systems are truly valid; though I am currently investigating the Mc alongside the natural 10th house in a number of charts to see whether there are any grounds for using such a system to define planetary strength. It therefore remains entire possible that your Lot of Fortune conjunct the Mc is strongly placed by angle. One of the main problems is that most if not all natal chart house systems can be made to fit a person’s life with a little imagination. Because of this problem I only use what I consider to be the original methods as laid down by the Greeks.

You are quite correct with the calculations of your LoF as being at 11Aqu59 which in the whole sign house system is in the 9th. This is not a particularly unfavourable place though it is cadent which would somewhat lessen its strength to produce opportunities in your life in general. In your chart its partner the LoS is in the house of good fortune which is more favourably placed if using the whole sign system. There is one very good point about both of them in your chart, and that is they are both connected to your ascendant which means they can both bring about favourable conditions and opportunities in your life. Like pisceanfool your LoF being cadent means your LoS will probably take over as fortune bringer, let’s take a look more closely.

Note: Because the LoF or any lot should be delineated within the context of the chart it is in, it is necessary to first understand the rulers of the sect (diurnal/nocturnal).

Because your Sun is above the horizon your chart is diurnal, the diurnal light is the Sun, and his triplicity rulers are Venus, Mars and the Moon. In your chart Venus is very dignified but she is out of sect and in the cadent 12th house suggesting a bit of a struggle in the first half of your life. However, because of her dignity she is able to rise above it and bring some fortune to your 4th and 5th house activities.

Now to your LoF in the 9th in Aquarius. This suggests that you have humanitarian concerns, and being part of a group is also important to you. Your friends are probably selected by what they can do for you or because they benefit you personally in some way. The LoF in Aquarius suggests a kind if inner emotional detachment where you can sometimes react to people in a cold and unsympathetic manner; likewise the same would be received from others at times. You may find this manner hard to comprehend because of your three personal planets in water signs, but it is the path of your fortune connected to houses 1, 5 & 9 (air houses in your chart) to learn to understand life through the mind. Inquisitiveness is part of your very soul for your entire lifetime, if you can learn to balance logic with your depth of feelings you will benefit greatly from a cosmic viewpoint. Saturn is the ruling planet of your LoF and he is in your 4th house and retrograde. From a health perspective, this can suggest an inherited health condition or someone in your family that requires health treatment. The physical stress is shown by your LoF ruler Saturn being in aversion (inconjunct) to the lot itself. Furthermore, Saturn is opposite to your Sun/Mercury combustion in your 10th house. This suggests a stressful relationship with your father and a slightly confrontational nature in regard to the men in your life in general.

Again, like pisceanfool, your LoF is not as well connected as one might like it to be, neither is its lord (ruler) favourably situated. For this reason the ancients defaulted to the LoS for fortunate or favourable times as is clearly demonstrated in pisceanfool’s chart above. Your LoS is at 5Lib30 and its ruler Venus is in a much better condition, as well as being a natural benefic. Had she been in your 1st or 10th house you would have probably had a very charmed life. It is slightly unfortunate for her to be in the 12th house and out of sect because these conditions place restrictions on her ability to create happiness and luxury for you in some areas of your life. What this might suggest personally is that while you were growing up you had many rules placed upon your social conditions which might cause some stress in your future relationships by having rules imposed on you which you would rather not have, or by you imposing rules on others that might rebel against you.

Both the LoF and the LoS are in fixed signs, so directions, time lord ingresses and time lord transits to the fixed signs will be most active in your life in regard to fate and fortune. The timing of your LoF is that Saturn gets rulership for the first 30 years, after which he hands the reigns over to Jupiter for twelve years. Because Saturn is your current lord of fortune his movement through the fixed signs will highlight his activity and relationship to your chart. A similar thing can be said about your LoS, though the timings and house activities would be different. From your LoS the first 8 years are handled by Venus followed by a 20 year period handled by Mercury. After Mercury’s period comes a period of 25 years handled by the Moon. So in regard to your LoS the time lord changes when you are 28, this is very likely to coincide with some event in your life, this is especially so because this change-over happens during your first Saturn return.


Good wishes


Bob

Bob
04-03-2007, 06:03 PM
Hi all,


SameeSadiq,

I have checked on the positions of the ‘lots’ based upon a 12.30pm time, you did not say whether your birth was am/pm or whether you were using a 24 hour clock.

If the time I used is correct your Lot of Fortune is at 5Sco15 in your 6th house. Your Sun is approximately 153 degrees away from your Moon, in order for your LoF to be in the 7th house the Moon would have to be over 180 degrees apart from your Sun so it cannot physically be in your 7th house until after a full Moon.

Like the previous posts I made about the LoF yours is also in a cadent house, because of this you have to default to the Lot of Spirit. Your LoS is at 0Cap32 in partile conjunction to your Venus in your 8th house. The most active times for opportunities in your life are directions, ingresses and time lord transits into and through the cardinal signs.

Because your LoF is in the 6th it will have something to say about your health through the significations of Mars. Mars handles the first 15 years of your life in this respect, then comes a 12 year period of Jupiter, and this is followed by a 27 year period handled by Saturn.

Your LoS is in Capricorn in the 8th where two of the obvious significations are about your position and reputation through work, and the management of other people’s money and/or possessions. These are obvious areas where opportunities might spring from and the timing is as follows: (nocturnal) Saturn handled the first 27 years of your life, (diurnal) Saturn will handle the next 30 years; after these periods comes a ‘very’ nice 12 year Jupiter phase.

If you check these things up with your life you should find some changes at or around the hand-over periods.


Good wishes


Bob

Bob
04-03-2007, 06:07 PM
Hi all,


Yoi:
The astrology you are using seems quite different from "modern" astrology though. For example it seems you are only using the traditional rulers? How do the outer planets like Uranus, Neptune and Pluto factor in to the PoF?


Thankyou for the compliment. I did ask your permission about posting the reply on the forum because I respect everyone’s privacy, and would not want to offend yourself or anybody else. I will only give general guides on the forum for; 1) respecting the privacy of everyone and; 2) by showing a method everyone can learn to investigate it for themselves which is much more fun, and a great in-depth voyage of discovery.


I did start off with all the traditional meanings and rulership’s that are used today but I just got so fed up with the results being so hit n miss this caused me to abandon astrology for what turned out to be about a year. With a renewed thirst I decided to trace back all the systems to their original discoverer or to the first known records. During this time I noticed many mistakes or misunderstandings have been passed on without question in many of the systems we use today. It was then a matter (not simple by any means) of sorting the wheat from the chaff, so to speak. It was absolutely ‘not’ a sorting out on the premise of ‘it works for me’ because the sort of astrology I want to practice is ‘what works for everyone’ regardless of ones place of birth, as long as it was planet earth it should stand up to working for all.

With renewed vigour I went to work reading and cross referencing any ancient astrological literature I could get my hands on. While I was doing this many great astrological authors were doing similar things and publishing their work. Then along came Project Hindsight who started out by translating one or two classics into English. There was quite an interest from the serious astrological community so they became quite popular and decided to translate as much ancient astrological literature as they could via subscription help. With people like Robert Hand, Robert Schmidt, Robert Zoller and a host of other top quality astrologers on their team they were able to translate Greek, Latin and Arabic works while cross referencing with each other which subsequently led to some amazing discoveries.

The system I was using with the LoF etc above is called the System of Hermes; this was part of an ancient and complex system that just did not get handed down. Bob Schmidt and the team at PH have reconstructed this system as a result of about 15 years translating. It is very detailed, very deep and very informative; I do expect to be fully fluent with it in about one to three years of study at the rate of over 40 hours per week.

How do the outer planets like Uranus, Neptune and Pluto factor in to the PoF?

Within the framework of Hellenistic astrology there is no room for the outer planets where rulership and exaltation are concerned. The whole system was designed around the framework of the ‘visible’ planets, with Saturn marking the boundary. The modern concept of rulership is massively flawed but it would take far too long to even scratch the surface of it here. Deb Houlding has been making a few noises about highlighting why the modern rulership’s cannot possibly work for a possible forthcoming book. As much of her practice has a grounding in classical/medieval techniques I would probably be in agreement with most of what she might copy/paste as a rulership investigation.

I personally do use the outer planets in natal work, but only if they are strongly emphasised in a nativity. In Zollers ‘a lost key’ he uses the outer planets for delineation and rulership, though he did decline to answer why in an email I sent him some time ago. Like I said above, since the writing of that book some thirty odd years ago he may not delineate them anymore the way he did in the book.


I hope to collect my pm’s later today Yoi, it may take me a few days to catch up with my daily work before I can answer them.


Good wishes


Bob

Lissa
04-03-2007, 06:31 PM
For those who might be interested,this site (http://www.noendpress.com/pvachier/arabicparts/index.php) calculates the Arabian parts(and lots of them,although most of them are unknown to me:p )and it makes the distinction between nocturnal and diurnal charts.

Have fun:) .
Lissa

Sag Moon
04-03-2007, 06:32 PM
I often wondered what the parts mean as I have mine in the 8th which makes only one aspect to Mars and that is it.

Seeing that it's in Aquarius I imagine that it's ruler is Uranus in the 3rd which makes aspects to many planets in mmy chart.

So does PoF in 8th mean more if looked at as having it's ruler in the 3rd in Leo?

I know Robert Hand has done alot of research into the PoF and how it works within the chart.

When it's conjunct planets or placed in certain houses it has a bigger effect upon the subject. That's about all I know.The ancients placed much more value on it and there is also the Part Of Spirit that is suppose to hold as much influence ,but is overlooked by many now. There is a Part for almost everything also.

Lissa
04-03-2007, 07:18 PM
What about it when the ruler of the Part of Fortune is opposite the ruler of the Part of Spirit?

I was trying to look at the PoF in my chart,and since it was in a cadent house(12th),I did the same as Bob and calculated the PoS,which is in the1st house in Capricorn.But,the ruler of the PoS is opposite the ruler of the PoF with a0º08'orb:eek: (Jupiter Retrograde at3º50'Leo,Saturn at3º58'Aquarius)!What could this mean?(PoF at24º30'Sagitarius,PoS at13º54'Capricorn in the1st house,sandwiched between Uranus and Neptune-I guess this two conjunctions make my PoS quite spiritual.My chart is in the signature,carefully hidden in the word Fire:p).

Thanks in advance:) .

Lissa

Yoi
04-04-2007, 12:04 PM
Here's something I just noticed about the PoF. According to Bob, the PoF is strongest when it is in an angular house, that is House 1, 4, 7 or 10. However when you look at the formula for the PoF and this is BOTH the day and night formula which means the PoS obeys this observation too, to obtain the PoF in an angular house means that you are likely to have either Sun conjunct Moon (the PoF ends up in House 1), Sun square Moon (the PoF ends up in House 4 or 10) or Sun Opposition Moon (the PoF ends up in House 7). This is also true for the PoS.

What this means is that a strong PoF or PoS means that you are looking at a person with a strong aspect between the Sun or Moon, to be more exact a strong *hard* aspect or a conjunction.

Even the angular houses the PoF/PoS ends up in makes sense. A sun conjunct moon or New Moon person ends up with the PoF in the 1st house. New Moon people tend to be self-centred and extremely sure of themselves. They don't tend to have too much self-doubt. Hence they have a strong fortune that is centred around their own actions (1st House).

Full Moon people (which includes me) tend to be full of self-doubt. However they are good at being objective and seeing both sides of things and are good at latching onto other people. In fact they feel an emotional need to do so. As Sue Thompson puts it, "Relationship is the raise d'etre for the opposition person and the type has the skill and understanding to know how to use the one-to-one encounter to further its own need for self-definition and clarification of goals." Hence the Full Moon type ends up with the PoF in House 7, that is your fortune comes from your close relationships with others.

The Moon-Sun square type ends up with the PoF in House 4 or House 10. According to Sue Thompson, Moon-Sun square types, "often have a very real need to achieve something in life, something they and their family can be proud of. Often as children those with the square didn't feel that their parents were proud of their accomplishments and this feeling of lack can be a spur towards them pushing themselves forward in life, or the reason for them not being able to do so."

Yoi
04-04-2007, 10:07 PM
Yoi,

Interesting post. How can it apply, though, to both the PoF and the PoS? My PoF is in H12, which fits with your description as I was born during the waning Moon, but not yet New (so no Sun/Moon conjunction). However, my PoS is in the first house, 10Taurus42. So, this is an angular placement, but no Sun/Moon conj.

It depends on the exact number for Sun-Moon (or Moon-Sun), the size of the houses, where exactly the IC, and MC occur (because using the Placidus house system it isn't likely to be ASC+90 degree or ASC+270 degree). But in a "perfect" system if the PoF is at ASC+90 degree then the PoS must be at ASC+270 degree because if the difference between the Sun and Moon is X then the difference between the Moon and Sun must be 360 degree-X. If the PoF is at ASC+180 degree, the PoS must be at ASC+180 degree and if the PoF is at ASC+270 degree then the PoS must be at ASC+90 degree. If the PoF is at ASC+0 then so is the PoS (as ASC+360 degree=ASC+0 degree). Things do not always work out perfectly how you would note in your case even though the PoS and PoF end up in two different houses, they are still probably fairly close.

EDIT: Actually now that I think about it, I might be wrong about the PoS and PoF being angular together. Let's say the PoF is in the 7th house. It means it is likely to be 180 degree + X where X is less than 30 degrees. But if the (Sun-Moon) is 180 degree + X then (Moon-Sun)=180 degree - X so the PoS would end up in the 6th house. OK, it does look as if the PoF and PoS do not end up angular together afterall, unless you are talking about perfect 90 degrees, 180 degrees and 270 degrees which is what I was thinking of originally. However perfect angles do not happen normally unless the opposition, conjunction or square is practically perfect. Another thing is the orb for aspects is less than 30 degree so even if the orb is normally too wide for a Moon-Sun aspect it may still be possible to have the PoF angular. Likewise because of the orb it may be possible to have the PoF cadent even if you have a Moon-Sun aspect. For example if (Sun-Moon) is less than 180 degree then the PoF would be in the 6th house. However in that case, (Moon-Sun) would be 180 degree + X (where X < 30 degrees). In that case the PoS would be in the 7th house. The other problem is that the IC and MC are not usually at 90 degree or -90 degree respectively from the ASC in the common Placidus system. I think though generally speaking, if the relationship between the Moon and Sun is angular, taking an even larger orb than is normally allowed for aspects, you have a very good chance of having one of the PoF or PoS in an angular house.

ImNotThere9
07-23-2010, 07:40 PM
--------------------------

BobZemco
07-23-2010, 08:11 PM
My Part of Fortune makes a trine to saturn and mars in pisces from scorpio, trines midheaven in Cancer, and sextiles chiron.

Wow, the only thing that could be worse is being in the Face of either Mars or Saturn or being in the 6th, 8th or 12th House.

The PoF shows the strength of your Estate. Your PoF has no strength. That means your Estate will be debilitated by where ever your PoF actually is which apparently is either the 1st or 12th House.

dr. farr
07-24-2010, 04:21 AM
I follow the thinking of the old time Greeks, and believe that one cannot fully understand the ramifications/implications of the POF unless they are also aware of the ramifications and implications of the Part of Spirit. Also, when considering these Parts (or Lots as they used to be known-the POF was also known as the Lot of the Moon, and the Part of Spirit was also known as the Lot of the Sun), any fixed star connection MUST be considered, as well as planetary connections; and I have also found that aspect by sign (lthe aspect determining method exclsuively used Vedic astrology) yield additional important information/indications, beyond what we find with our usual aspect-by-degree analysis.

theV
07-05-2012, 11:34 AM
Part of fortune Taurus 10th H trine Sun venus conj

dr. farr
07-06-2012, 04:45 AM
The V:

Placement of your POF in the 10th house (advancements), in fertile Taurus, and the POF being aspected by Sun/Venus, indicates fortunate influences upon your POF

Bina
07-06-2012, 05:11 AM
dr. farr, do you work with a different formula for the part of fortune depending on day/night time of birth?

dr. farr
07-06-2012, 05:31 AM
dr. farr, do you work with a different formula for the part of fortune depending on day/night time of birth?


Yes I do, as did the ancients: the earliest information we still have (Manilius "Astronomica", 14 AD) gave the method using a day and a night formula; a century later Ptolemy amended that to be just the day formula for all times, but very few of the subsequent astrologers agreed with Ptolemy; later, when Ptolemy's influence came to dominate Western astrological thought and practice, many-but not all-used the day-only formula; at the present time, Modernist astrologers, and a majority of Traditionalist and neo-Hellenist astrologers, follow the original ancient method of using a day formula or a night formula depending upon the time...

Day formula: ascendant + moon - sun

Night fomula: ascendant + sun - moon

Bina
07-06-2012, 05:37 AM
Thank you, dr.farr, you always clarify my doubts! :smile:

The part of spirit is then obtained by the other one of these 2 fomulas?
What does it signify in a chart?

dr. farr
07-06-2012, 05:45 AM
Yes it is.
The Part of Spirit (anciently known as the Lot of the Sun) represents the "inside" of the person, how the World, and interactions with others, affect the person inside themself, within the hidden recesses of their own spirit; it also shows the direction of the spiritual evolution of the person, indeed, perhaps moreso than the North Node does.

Bina
07-06-2012, 05:54 AM
Thanks again, dr.farr.

My POF is in Libra, 7th house (Placidus/equal), 8th house (whole sign), but it has only 2 wide orb and out of sign major aspects, square Jupiter (5° orb) and opp Venus (7°orb). Do these aspects still count? What orb do you use? Do you take other minor aspects to the POF into account?

dr. farr
07-06-2012, 06:06 AM
For me, placement of the POF/POS in sign is most important, followed by house, then the major close aspects (not the minor ones), using a tight orb of no more than a couple of degrees; remember that the POF/POS also has potentials for Parallels of declination (orb 1.5 degrees) which I consider more significant than any of the aspects (although I also consider conjunction within orb, and less significantly, conjunction by sign, important influential relationships as well) Remember the POF and POS (indeed any Lot) do not MAKE (generate) aspects, but they do receive aspects, from planets.
I also do not consider out of sign aspects in my delineations unless we are talking about a conjunction involving the Sun, where the orb is 6 degrees or less (eg, Sun @ 2 Aries, Venus at 27 Pisces: this is out of sign-however because of the Sun's special essential nature-its rays, and the fact that it is a star, really, not a planet-I would consider Venus conjunct the Sun, in this example)

tsmall
07-06-2012, 06:36 AM
I follow the thinking of the old time Greeks, and believe that one cannot fully understand the ramifications/implications of the POF unless they are also aware of the ramifications and implications of the Part of Spirit. Also, when considering these Parts (or Lots as they used to be known-the POF was also known as the Lot of the Moon, and the Part of Spirit was also known as the Lot of the Sun), any fixed star connection MUST be considered, as well as planetary connections; and I have also found that aspect by sign (lthe aspect determining method exclusively used Vedic astrology) yield additional important information/indications, beyond what we find with our usual aspect-by-degree analysis.

I have been looking more into the PoF, and PoS (Part of Fortune and Part of Spirit) with respect to Zodiacal Releasing...but I do wonder...isn't it more beneficial, with these specific lots, to construct the Fortuna Chart? How do we apply them without that? That these two lots show an incredible amount of information about the native can't be questioned, but...without recasting the chart, aren't we missing the boat on their potential?

Bina
07-06-2012, 06:37 AM
How can you find out the declination of the POF/POS?

dr. farr
07-06-2012, 06:40 AM
The POF, at least, is found in the free pdf which accompanies the astro.com charts

Caro
07-06-2012, 09:18 AM
Wow what an interesting informative thread. Thanks for digging this one up.

Is the calculation of POF on astro.com correct ie does it convert the day and night correctly.

From the earlier posts I guess it does as I have POF in 12th house (in libra and trines sun in 4th.) my sun is aqua/moon in pisces so born just after new moon.

is POF activated by transits? at all? I need to look back at when I first became of aware of its significance. Perhaps if it is in the 'quiet' areas of the chart it is something that you dont realise until later in life.

Interesting about POS as I havent looked at that.

I need to reread Bob's earlier post.

dr. farr
07-06-2012, 09:37 AM
I don't think we need to erect Fortuna charts (or Spiritus charts) to get valuable indications from the POF and POS-heck, the Islamic transitional era practitioners who used these Lots extensively, didn't! And I must add that my use of them, in delineation, which I am quite pleased with, does not involve Fortunata or Spiritus charts (not knocking such charts, and they may be a very valuable field for research)

Yes I accept that the POF and POS are activated by transits, and by progressions to those points, and by profection of the points themselves; heck I have long treated them just as if they were planets, EXCEPT that I do not draw aspects FROM them-relative to placement, I consider them quite active, relative to ASPECTS, they are (I believe) completely passive-they receive aspects, but do not generate aspects.
Conjunctions with them, and Parallels of declination, by planets, I consider very significant (tight orbs though, maximum in conjunction 3 degrees) HOWEVER, all of the ancient authorities, considered the ENTIRE SIGN and everything which might be IN that sign, to be "connected" in some way, with the POF or POS being posited in that sign-actually, this is how they looked at/regarded ALL of the Lots, ie, that the Lot "incorporated" the sign and everything which might be in that sign, into relationship with what that Lot signified (Islamic transitional era authors early moved away from this basically Hellenist concept, and emphasized aspects to Lots using pretty tight orbs, and also the planetary dispositor of the sign in which the Lots were placed, the house in which the Lots would fall, etc, and the ancient Hellenist concept of the Lots being connected with "everything" in the same sign the Lot was in, became forgotten and lost until the older literature began to be translated and made available over the past 20 years-just as whole sign house format was forgotten, and then rediscovered beginning in the mid-1990's)

theV
07-06-2012, 12:27 PM
The V:

Placement of your POF in the 10th house (advancements), in fertile Taurus, and the POF being aspected by Sun/Venus, indicates fortunate influences upon your POF

Does it influence my Aries Mid? a,d I have POF square my Asc leo

dr. farr
07-07-2012, 04:59 AM
In my opinion, no, because both (the ascending degree and the POF) are PASSIVE relative to aspects, meaning they RECEIVE aspects from planets, but they do not (to my understanding) SEND (generate) aspects TO other chart components; so since neither factor is an aspect-sending (generating) body (like a planet would be), then they do not generate ANY aspect to each other (so there would NOT be an aspectual square between the POF and the ascending degree)

may28gemini
07-12-2012, 03:56 AM
Here's something I just noticed about the PoF. According to Bob, the PoF is strongest when it is in an angular house, that is House 1, 4, 7 or 10. However when you look at the formula for the PoF and this is BOTH the day and night formula which means the PoS obeys this observation too, to obtain the PoF in an angular house means that you are likely to have either Sun conjunct Moon (the PoF ends up in House 1), Sun square Moon (the PoF ends up in House 4 or 10) or Sun Opposition Moon (the PoF ends up in House 7). This is also true for the PoS.

What this means is that a strong PoF or PoS means that you are looking at a person with a strong aspect between the Sun or Moon, to be more exact a strong *hard* aspect or a conjunction.

Even the angular houses the PoF/PoS ends up in makes sense. A sun conjunct moon or New Moon person ends up with the PoF in the 1st house. New Moon people tend to be self-centred and extremely sure of themselves. They don't tend to have too much self-doubt. Hence they have a strong fortune that is centred around their own actions (1st House).

Full Moon people (which includes me) tend to be full of self-doubt. However they are good at being objective and seeing both sides of things and are good at latching onto other people. In fact they feel an emotional need to do so. As Sue Thompson puts it, "Relationship is the raise d'etre for the opposition person and the type has the skill and understanding to know how to use the one-to-one encounter to further its own need for self-definition and clarification of goals." Hence the Full Moon type ends up with the PoF in House 7, that is your fortune comes from your close relationships with others.

The Moon-Sun square type ends up with the PoF in House 4 or House 10. According to Sue Thompson, Moon-Sun square types, "often have a very real need to achieve something in life, something they and their family can be proud of. Often as children those with the square didn't feel that their parents were proud of their accomplishments and this feeling of lack can be a spur towards them pushing themselves forward in life, or the reason for them not being able to do so."

very fascinating. my sun-moon signs square but not in aspect. do the signs have to be in square via aspect for your theory?

my pof is in cancer in 10th house. it's true that i didn't feel that my parents were proud of me but i stopped caring about that sometime in my early 20s. i have no desire to achieve anything that my parents can be proud of. a few years ago, my mother (for the first time) said she's proud of me, and that she always was but didn't know how to say it. my dad said he's proud of me 2x (the 1st was 2 years ago and the 2nd time was a few weeks ago). i haven't achieved anything they didn't achieve...maybe except a master's from an ivy league college (my parents have their bachelor's) but i hardly consider "higher education" something to be proud of... rather something that seems run of the mill. but then again, my pof trines uranus (disassociation) and moon (flucuation) so that's something...

LeoCassandra
07-22-2012, 10:16 AM
Does PoF conjunct fixed star Scheat is really, really bad?:surprised::crying:

Amy
07-26-2012, 01:24 PM
can someone please help me to understand what it mean in MY CHART? I have my chart uploaded but i dont know how to apply this aspect on it. I only read that it was in my 8th house now.

i have been reading alot on this Vertex but if someone knowledgeable would please reach out to me and talk to me on how this is affecting my chart I would appreciate it very much.

i hope to hear from you.
:sad:

JUPITERASC
07-26-2012, 01:32 PM
Does PoF conjunct fixed star Scheat is really, really bad?:surprised::crying:
How certain are you of the exactness of your time of birth? BECAUSE if your time of birth is inaccurate then your PoF may not be conjunct Scheat at all! :smile:

JUPITERASC
07-26-2012, 01:36 PM
.......i have been reading a lot on this Vertex.......
Your thread regarding Vertex and 8th house has some helpful links - so I'm quoting Bina's post in case others are interested to explore those links as well
Amy, yes, your chart is there, but you need to put the Vertex on it. The Vertex is a point on your chart, just like the NN or the part of fortune, on astro.com it is listed with the additional objects at the bottom of the page. Then we can see where it is in your chart and what aspects it makes.

I don't really know much about the Vertex, like you, i'm still trying to find out what it means. If you upload a chart with the Vertex on it, i'll take a look with my limited knowledge and see if i can help. :smile:

The Vertex can receive aspects, also by transit, just like all the other points and planets in a chart. From what i've read it's activation by transit can signify important encounters in our life.

A few links about the Vertex :

http://thezodiac.com/notworth.htm

http://www.falconastrology.com/vertex.htm

http://www.cosmitec-astrological-com...om/vertex.html
This thread is titled 'Part of Fortune aspects'. Part of Fortune is not the Vertex... the Part of Fortune is different from the Vertex. The Part of Fortune and the Vertex are not the same :smile:

Cascada
07-27-2012, 08:13 PM
I have the POF in Virgo, 2nd house, ruler in 4th house and is heavily aspected (good and bad aspects). It is alongside my MC ruler, Venus, but is not conjunct. Moon is also by its side. I have Mercury sextile POF, Mars sextile POF, Uranus and Neptune trine POF and the POF also trines the MC. No other aspects. How could I get an interpretation on this?

LeoCassandra
07-28-2012, 08:22 AM
How certain are you of the exactness of your time of birth? BECAUSE if your time of birth is inaccurate then your PoF may not be conjunct Scheat at all! :smile:
Very certian:wink: My mother remember exact time of my birth. maybe it could be 2 minutes later or earlier.