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Anachiel
07-06-2012, 04:44 PM
Some Arabic Parts are calculated using specific house cusps as part of the formula. For example: The Part of Property and Goods is calculated ASC + 2nd House Cusp - Lord of the 2nd House.

Or, Part of Grandparents, ASC + Saturn - 2nd House Cusp

etc.

My question is, what house system are "they" using to calculate these cusps? Obviously, a great number of house systems did not exist back in the day but, even those few extant, at the time, may all render a completely different placement for such Parts.

07-07-2012, 10:48 AM
Add 6sign to Midcusp and deduct from asc. cusp= value/3 + Asc. cusp = 2nd cusp.
Similarly other house cusps will be calculated
Or
difference of 4th house cusp and asc. cusp=value/3+Asc. cusp= 2nd house cusp

Anachiel
07-07-2012, 03:13 PM
So, this is like a placidus or equal house derivative?

07-07-2012, 03:29 PM
According to KP system Placidus, and Vedic System is like Chalit (based on house midcusp)

Anachiel
07-07-2012, 03:41 PM
Ah, I see. Thank you.

Mainly I am interested in what house system the Arabs (I assume they were using these since they are Arabic Parts) used to calculate the intermediate house cusps for the various formulas they have that utilize them.

07-08-2012, 12:10 AM
These calculations, one can find in ancient Vedic Astrology. In Original version, calculations are explained in "Shlok form in Sanskrit language."

Alice McDermott
07-08-2012, 02:41 AM
The Arabic Lots are not Arabic - they are called so because a brilliant Arabic astrologer - Al Burini - collected as many as he could and wrote them down. They were known long before his time.

As almost all the Lots are derived from a relationship with the Ascendant, equal house is usually the best system when you are using house cusps in the calculation.

Alice

Anachiel
07-08-2012, 09:44 AM

Yes, also the Hellenistic astrologers utilized them...anyway...

I am familiar with equilibrium charts and an equal house system would be appropriate in that case. However, the original calculation of the Parts, particularly those which are not derived only from the ASC or MC but, rather like my example above, are derived from intermediate house cusps is my concern.

There certainly were a few house systems used back in the day and, it is clarfication on which of these house systems were used in conjuntion with the Parts that I would like some clarification with.

So odd...we have so many people on here that utilze the Parts constantly I was sure someone would know..........I mean, even in modern times, what house system would you use since the answer to this will change the position of Parts derived from intermediate houses...hmmmmm

Alice McDermott
07-09-2012, 12:23 AM
I suppose you can experiment for yourself as I have done on my website, where I found Princess Diana responded strongly to the Regiomontanus cusps.

I don't know which house systems were used in the early period of astrology, but it wasn't Placidus, Regiomontanus, Topocentric or Koch, all of which were discovered much later. I wasn't aware that the early astrologers used anything but equal house or whole signs.

As far as I understand, these astrologers related everything to the Ascendant so all house cusps were just equal points from the Ascendant and the Lots were calculated from this.

Perhaps the historians amongst us can give further enlightenment.

Alice

Anachiel
07-11-2012, 11:35 PM
Resurrecting this thread. I know there have to be answers out there.

tsmall
07-12-2012, 01:15 AM
Anachiel, I have been wondering about this since you first posted this thread, but I haven't had the time (sigh) to do the research. My curiosity is where your list of parts comes from? I have only experimented to date with the 7 Hermetic Lots/Parts, as they were the original ones. I know that several of the online parts calculators use calculations that involve the modern planets (which for obvious reasons wouldn't have existed before they were discovered, making the parts themselves modern.) I would assume that, depending on who first described a particular part, the house cusps would be from whichever house system that astrologer, or group of astrologers used.

hth :smile:

dr. farr
07-12-2012, 05:40 AM
The first generation of "Arabs" used whole sign houses, so their "cusps" were the "sensitive point" of each house; so too with the earlier Greco-Romans (predominant use of whole sign house format), who originated almost all of the Lots (that is, the formulae for the Lots**) which were later taken over during the Islamic transitional era ("Arabic Parts"); by the later 9th century, the "Arabs" switched completely to use of the Alchabitius quadrant house system, which continued through the time of Bonatti-so the Alchabitius house cusps were used during this period of time, through the rise of Campanus and Regiomontanus during Renaissance times in Europe.

In India (jyotish/Vedic astrology) Lots are very rarely used (and never have been-which is a very a big difference between ancient Vedic and Hellenist astrology)
Equal house format dominates Vedic astrology (cusps as divisions of houses beginning from the ascending degree)-in the earliest Vedic period, whole sign house format dominated (as it did with the Greco-Romans) By around the 11th/12th century, Sripati introduced the ancient Western porphyry quadrant house system into Vedic astrology: following Equal house, Sripati's quadrant house system (porphyry house format) is widely applied among Vedic practitioners (the minority Jaimini astrologers continue to use the ancient whole sigh house format in their branch of Vedic astrology) The revisionist (Modernist leaning) KP movement within jyotish, use placidus house format (as Anoop mentioned in an earlier post) However, as I mentioned earlier, Vedic astrology has never made much application of Lots (there has been some application of the Part of Fortune, ie, the Lot of the Moon, in Vedic but that's about the only Lot I am aware of, from the Vedic literature)

(*see for example Greenbaum, "Late Classical Astrology")

JUPITERASC
07-12-2012, 08:00 AM
Some Arabic Parts are calculated using specific house cusps as part of the formula. For example: The Part of Property and Goods is calculated ASC + 2nd House Cusp - Lord of the 2nd House.

Or, Part of Grandparents, ASC + Saturn - 2nd House Cusp etc.

My question is, what house system are "they" using to calculate these cusps? Obviously, a great number of house systems did not exist back in the day but, even those few extant, at the time, may all render a completely different placement for such Parts.
fwiw IMO, in general, a reasonable assumption could well be that “they” used their preferred house system of choice :smile:

Briefly succinct useful information explaining how all these different house systems were calculated has been encapsulated in an article by astrologer Kevin Burk at http://therealastrology.com/ask-kevin/planets-signs-a-houses/46-house-systems.html

99 word QUOTE:
"Houses in astrology as being distinct and different from the Sign divisions is a relatively recent technique.

(Well, recent as far as astrology goes: most of the House systems were developed in the 17-18th centuries, and when you consider that Astrology is thousands of years old, Houses are still a “newfangled” technique.)

There are three different “types” of House system: Quadrant, Time and Space. The majority of Time and Quadrant systems agree on placement of the Ascendant/Descendant axis and Midheaven/IC axis. They disagree on how to divide up the quadrants to determine the other eight House cusps"

Anachiel
07-12-2012, 02:27 PM
Anachiel, I have been wondering about this since you first posted this thread, but I haven't had the time (sigh) to do the research. My curiosity is where your list of parts comes from? ...

Thank you, tsmall. The lists come from al-Biruni and is also mentioned by Robert Zoller in his earler works. Granted, there really are very few that use intermediate house cusps but, it did make me curious as to the use of house system in calculating them because no one mentions that part of the equation.

... by the later 9th century, the "Arabs" switched completely to use of the Alchabitius quadrant house system, which continued through the time of Bonatti-so the Alchabitius house cusps were used during this period of time,...
Thank you for that explanation. Makes sense it may be Alchabitius or Porphyry.

fwiw IMO, in general, a reasonable assumption could well be that "they" used their preferred house system of choice ...

Thank you, JupiterASC. Tsmall mentioned the same thing and, it makes sense as well. Alice mentioned just working with the whole matter and seeing how it applies. So, far there is little (some but little) difference in the position of the Parts when I use the [main] differing house systems of the time. Being more inclined to the traditional I was interested in what went originally with the early original Parts.

Again, thank you all for shedding more light on this mystery. I appreciate your time and attention and all of you responses. :)