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Inconjunct
06-18-2012, 05:49 AM
As my signature says, I'm getting into classical astrology. Plenty of reading to be done. I'm looking at my natal chart and trying to work out the Lord of the Geniture. The almuten is Mercury, I think but he's in a cadent house and retrograde, not so good. Saturn is next down in essential dignity, but as he's situated in the 12th, is his power to act diminished or is it unaffected because he joys in this house? The candidate I've chosen is Jupiter as he's next down the list in terms of essential dignity, he's direct and in an angular house. Am I on the right tracks?

All help gratefully received. I'm on an iPad and can't see a way to attach my chart to this post, but it's in my profile, in the album marked "my chart"

Kaiousei no Senshi
06-18-2012, 07:58 AM
This depends on what definition you're using for Lord of Geniture. In medieval astrology, it's typically the planet that has the most essential and accidental dignities. So, it might not matter where that planet actually is in the chart.

There are others who suggest that the lord of geniture is the planet with the most essential and accidental dignities in the chart "that can act", and this is where you'd get to choose between a cadent planet and perhaps a slightly less dignified planet that happens to be in a more powerful house. I would be careful with this one, especially if there are several points difference between the two candidates.

There's even another opinion that the Lord of Geniture is the planet who rules the sign that follows one's Moon sign. So, if you have Moon in Taurus, Mercury would be the Lord of Geniture since it rules Gemini.

You mention that Mercury is the almuten, I'm assuming you mean almuten of the figure? That's not the same as the Lord of Geniture. The Almuten of the Figure is the planet with the most essential dignites, but the Lord of Geniture takes into consideration both essential and accidental dignity, so Mercury's cadency and retrograde motion would count against him.

Inconjunct
06-18-2012, 10:05 AM
Thank you - yes, Mercury is the Altumen of the Figure. At the moment, I'm veering more towards Jupiter. He's in the first, he has less essential dignity than Saturn, but Saturn's in the 12th AND he meets the criteria of ruling the sign after my Moon sign!

Thanks again for your help.

Kaiousei no Senshi
06-18-2012, 10:13 AM
It's likely that Saturn in the 12th isn't that badly debilitated since the 12th is his joy, but if we're looking at it from the perspective of "planets that can act" we know the 12th is a house that doesn't act since it's cadent.

As for the Lord of Geniture being the domicile lord of the sign following the Moon sign, that was only mentioned by Firmicus Maternus, so who knows what he was on when he wrote that down.

tsmall
06-18-2012, 12:23 PM
Inconjunct, when I put your info into Mornius (your chart is on your profile) it scores Mercury as both the Almuten of the Figure and the Lord of the Geniture.

Which brings up a question I have had myself--do they have to be two separate planets?

In the case of your Saturn in 12, it is similar to my own Venus (my Almuten) in that with whole sign she is in twelve, but in determining angularity she is in 11th--meaning more able to act. I believe (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong) that while charts were "read" in whole sign, angularity depended on distance from the angles, and is how strength/accidental dignity was calculated.

So, you would say the Saturn has the ability to act of being in the 11th, but operates and is read as being in the 12th.

Kaiousei no Senshi
06-18-2012, 12:33 PM
Which brings up a question I have had myself--do they have to be two separate planets?


No, they don't. The Almuten of the Figure already has the most essential dignity in the chart, so it's only if the Almuten has a few accidental debilities that take it out of the running that the Almuten and Geniture Lord are different.

Inconjunct
06-18-2012, 03:53 PM
I suppose here I could rely on modern astrological practice and say I "feel" my Mercury more than my Saturn, but I guess that's not appropriate :D

Kaiousei no Senshi
06-18-2012, 07:12 PM
Nah, probably not. :)

tsmall
06-18-2012, 07:45 PM
I suppose here I could rely on modern astrological practice and say I "feel" my Mercury more than my Saturn, but I guess that's not appropriate :D

Well, I'm still pretty new to this too, so I imagine someone could explain why we wouldn't...but this actually sounds about right to me.

What exactly does the Almuten of the Figure or the Lord of the Geniture do? And even though we are often with traditional astrology concerned in predicting events, I think there is much room to understand what the positions would "feel" like.

Kaiousei no Senshi
06-18-2012, 08:47 PM
The Lord of Geniture is more of a psychological placement. People become more like their Lord of Geniture in temperament and manners, that planet's personality sort of comes through in the native's. You sort of work this in with temperament and people who have a predominating temperament and a Lord of Geniture to match this usually become overwhelmed with that temperament. Othertimes, it can be used to balance them out.

For example, my predominating temperament is choleric, sanguine comes in as second, and my LoG is Jupiter in Cancer. This was a pretty beneficial set-up since Jupiter's sanguine nature can reinforce the secondary temperament and calm down the choler. It makes me more sociable, friendly, humorous, etc whereas the predominating choler would have made me more hateful, angry, driven, etc.

Continuing on about traditional psychological placements, the Lord of Manner is also another good one and can track people's personality changes over time.

The Almuten of the Figure is used a bit more predictively. As the planet that holds the most power in the chart, timing techniques involving that planet are generally more important than timing techniques involving other planets.

Inconjunct
06-19-2012, 05:49 AM
Well in that case, I think my LoG must be Jupiter as I'm certainly more jovial than I am saturnine or even mercurial.

Traditional astrology is making more sense to me in terms of my nativity. My temperament is, I believe, sanguine and again, that sounds more like me than the modernist's take that my chart ruler is Neptune. I'm not terribly spiritual and certainly not fuzzy round the edges!

Thanks for all the brilliant information, people.

Paul_
06-22-2012, 12:49 PM
Hi

The accidental dignity is in itself what demonstrates that the planet can act, therefore saying that the Lord of Geniture is the planet with the most essential dignity that can act, and the one with the most essential dignity that can act, is essentially the same thing.

As for what the LoG is in your own chart, perhaps post your chart and we can take a look. Remember, for example, that a planet up to 5 degrees from the ascendant, on the 12th house side, would be considered angular for example.

Kaiousei no Senshi
06-22-2012, 06:06 PM
The accidental dignity is in itself what demonstrates that the planet can act, therefore saying that the Lord of Geniture is the planet with the most essential dignity that can act, and the one with the most essential dignity that can act, is essentially the same thing.

I think the "that can act" is speaking more about accidental dignity. Consider Jupiter in Cancer in the 12th vs Moon in Taurus in the 10th. Both equally dignified, but the Moon, being in an angle, has more power to act than Jupiter in cadency.

That's, of course, a very basic and watered down explanation, but I hope the spirit carries through.

Paul_
06-22-2012, 07:10 PM
Kaiousei

Yes, but my point was more along the lines of the fact that being in the 10th IS an accidental dignity. So in the majority of cases it actually amounts to the same thing.

Kaiousei no Senshi
06-23-2012, 06:06 AM
Yes, you're probably right that it doesn't make a lot of difference in the majority of cases, but sometimes you have to make some judgments about it, especially when an otherwise dignified planet is suffering from some other forms of accidental debility like retrograde motion, Combustion, or conjoined with some negative fixed stars. Then sometimes you get some really interesting fights going on about it.

In my own case, I have three contenders for LoG. I could take Saturn in Capricorn, Jupiter in Cancer, and Sun in Leo. Well, Sun is in the 6th house, Saturn in 10th, Jupiter in 4th. Saturn gets a Trine from Venus, Jupiter gets her sextile. So, that takes the Sun out of the running. Saturn is retrograde, but in domicile and in a much more overt and virtuous house than Jupiter. So does the retrograde inhibit Saturn enough to make a less dignified, less overt planet the LoG? I would say yes, but others wouldn't be so sure.