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Omnisphericus
04-26-2012, 03:06 AM
This is very intriguing subject isn't it? :)

Well, I must mention in the very beginning in explaining the methods here that they are of medieval astrology type (Bonatti, Abu Ali, Al Khayat and etc.).
To say that the method is 'Traiditional' is really using very wide range of time span in which different techniques for delineating marriage were used.
For example, the Hellenistic Astrologer's (Valens, Dorotheus and etc.) have used methods on their own, methods which I'll probably (not even later) not explain on this thread, but we can open another thread for that matter.
As this section of Traditional Astrology is quite new and in its beginnings, we now trow out the techniques here and there and title them as "Traditional". I hope that in the future we can make sub sections of traditional astrology, such as: "Medieval Astrology", "Hellenistic Astrology", Renaissance Astrology" and etc..

There are certain rules in Medieval Astrology compiled which can give quite good and workable methods for delineating marriage. The rules one can learn for a short period of time, but the practice is what is needed in order these rules to become second nature of the astrologer's intuitive tool in delineating such things as Marriage in the chart. This is what I would like to do on this thread: to practice as much charts as I/we will have the time to do it.


The Technique

The Compound Almuten is what is very practical thing in almost all methods used in medieval delineation. It seems that Bonatti and other medievals were very fond on Compound Almutens.
I will first give delineation for male charts, and in some later post will explain the delineation for female charts.

Finding the Compound Almuten for Marriage:

Find the Rulers of all 5 dignities for these places:

1. 7th house cusp

2. Lord of the 7th house

3. Planets in 7th house (if any)

4. Moon

5. Venus

6. Part of Marriage (According to Hermes) (ASC + VE - SA) for Men.

The Planet which gets most points over these places is Almuten of Marriage.
But consider also if there are impediments to these places.
If there is affliction to 7th house (by some Malefic's square or opposition), to the Moon (aspect, combust, cadent, retrograde and etc.)

See if one of the individiaul Almutens over these places is joined to the Lord of the Ascendant or its Almuten or the Lord of the 7th or its Almuten.
If they are in trine or sextile, and if especially in reception, then the native will rejoice in living beautiful life with his wife according to his desire.

But if the aspects were without reception, or if the aspects were square or opposition, then the significations will be judged lower.

Bonatti:
But if the lord of the Ascendant were joined to the lord of the 7''', so that the former were lighter than the latter, it signifies that the native will want to copulate with women. If indeed the 7'h sign were Cancer or Scorpio or
Pisces or there were a conjunction of the lord of the 7
th or its Almuten with the lord of the first or its Almuten in these (signs) or from these (signs) or with one of them, it signifies that the native will have many wives or a great number of other women. If however you find the contrary, you are able to judge otherwise."


Example:
http://i47.tinypic.com/35kl8as.png

This is the chart of Akihito, Emperor of Japan

His chart is given on astrodatabank site as a chart of a man with successful marriage.

First we make Compound Almuten for these places:

1. 7th House Cusp at 28 Gemini:
Mercury 5, 3,
Saturn 3, 2
Jupiter 3
Sun 1

2. Ruler of 7th, Mercury in 16 Sag
Jupiter 5, 3
Sun 3
Saturn 3
Venus 2
Moon 1

3. Planets in 7th - there are no planets here

4. Moon 20 Pisces
Jupiter 5
Venus 4, 3
Mars, 3, 2, 1
Moon 3

5. Venus 15 Aquarius
Saturn 5, 3
Mercury, 3, 1
Jupiter 3, 2

6 Part of Marriage at 29 Sag
Jupiter 5, 3
Sun 3
Saturn 3, 1
Mars 2

Total:
Mercury 12
Saturn 20
Jupiter 29

No need to calculate further, Jupiter is Almuten of Marriage.
Look how strong is that Jupiter up there on MC.
He is receiving the Sun by sextile and the Part of Marriage on the Ascendant.

7th house cusp not impeded.
Its lord - Mercury, cadent (but in the first sign), not afflicted by Malefic's square or opposition, not by combustion.
Moon - not afflicted.
Venus - Saturn receives here in Aquarius.
Part of Marriage not afflicted, but indeed highlightened by ASC and Sun.

Lord (and also Almuten) of the 1st, and the Lord (and also Almuten) of the 7th are in Sextile. Jupiter receives Mercury.

Quite fortunate chart for marriage.

Omnisphericus
04-26-2012, 01:41 PM
According to Bonatti, if Venus is angular or succedent, fortunate and strong (without afflictions), and the triplicity rulers of her sign are also fortunate and strong and angular or succedent, and all (with Venus) are Oriental, signifies that the man will contract marriage when young and the marriage will bring him delight.

The same is with Moon, if she is in her First quarter (from new moon to 1st quarter) or in Third Quarter (from full moon to the third quarter), both quarters which Ptolemy considered to be Oriental, his marriage will be delayed somewhat more and he will contract it with a young girl, and he will be fortunate with woman, but a little less then in the first example (with Venus).

If Venus is impeded, i.e. cadent, combust, retrograde, joined with malefics, and also her triplicity lords are impeded, and if she and the lords are occidental and are between the AC and IC or between DC and MC, or in the 2nd quarter of the Moon or in the last (occidental quarters), it signifies that the marriage of the natus is a little postponed and he will marry a little older woman in older years and he will be unfortunate because of women.

But if Venus is fortunate and strong, angular or succedent, but her Lords were impeded, then the native will marry a good and appropriate woman, but evil detriment follows that marriage (because of the impeded lords); and you can judge the same for the vice versa example, i.e. when Venus is impeded but the lords of the triplicity are in good state, then the native marries inappropriate woman but the marriage will bring him happiness.

Aboali:

"And Aboali said 'If Venus in the nativities of women or men were free
from the malefics and from impediments, in fitting places, it signifies that
the marriage will be good and fitting. But if she were impeded and in a
bad place, it signifies destruction and the malignancy of the marriage.'
But Aomar said, if Venus were exalted over Saturn from the tenth, the
marriage will be in middle age in a time fitting to her and the marriage
will be normal
and the [number of] children likewise moderate. But when
Venus in anyone's nativity were in a mobile sign, and especially in Cancer
or Capricorn, it signifies the firm stability of the native over one wife.
If indeed Venus and the Moon were opposed to each other or in square
aspect it signifies evil and impediment in marriage. And if they were in
Gemini, Virgo, Sagittarius or Pisces, it signifies that the native will contract
marriage with more than one woman."

Lets now look to the same example of the emperor Akihito (chart given above).
He married princess Michiko in 10 March 1959, when he was 25 years old.

Venus is Succedent, received by Saturn, she receives the Almuten of Marriage (Jupiter) with Trine in 10th, her Triplicity Lords (Mercury, Saturn and Jupiter) are all free from impediments. Mercury is cadent but in the same sign as the Ascendant.
Venus is Oriental.
Moon is in the First Quarter - Oriental.

Omnisphericus
04-26-2012, 02:05 PM
According to Bonatti,
if Venus is in Aries or Scorpio, and if Mars is in Taurus or Libra, will cause excessive venereal activity and impediment in his person.

If Venus is in Capricorn or Aquarius, and Saturn in Taurus or Libra,
or Venus is in Gemini or Virgo, and Mercury in Taurus or Libra,
or Venus and Mercury were in Capricorn or Aquarius and the one seeks conjunction to the other, it
signifies the native's practice of sodomy and that he will delight more in
men than in women.

But if Venus were in her house or exaltation, it will
elevate the woman above that native and she will dominate him and all
the more if the lord of the seventh is north from the lord of the Ascendant.
However if she were in her triplicity or term she will dominate him but far less. But if she were in her face she will once again dominate him much less."

Aomar says that if Venus, the Sun or Part of Marriage, or many of the significators of the native and the Lord of the house of marriage (7th) were in Aries, Leo, Libra or Capricorn - the signs of filthy coitus, it signifies that the native will be excessive in coitus with excessiveness in foulness and filthiness.

If Venus were corporaly joined with Mars (conjunction) or in Square or Opposition, and Mars were in Aries, Scorpio or Capricorn, it signifies that the native will be foully abusing the coitus of foul persons and the more so if Venus is in masculine sign because than she will be more prone to foulness and sodomites.
But if the native is a woman and Venus is in feminine sign she is made sport of by women. She will make the native insatiable and insatiate in respect to coitus and she will become a whore.
But if Venus is in masculine sign she will abuse women, and desire to rub them, she will be a woman who plays a male role.

Omnisphericus
04-26-2012, 02:12 PM
Part of Marriage for Men:
ASC + VE - SA

Part of Marriage for Women:
ASC + SA - VE

Moon Quarters:
From 0 degrees to 90 (New Moon to 1st quarter) = 1st QUARTER (Oriental)
From 90 to 180 = 2nd QUARTER (Occidental)
From 180 to 270 = 3rd QUARTER (Oriental)
From 270 to 360 = 4th QUARTER (Occidental)

Chart Quarters:
From AC to MC = Oriental Quarter (Masculine)
From MC to DC = Occidental Quarter (Feminine)
From DC to IC = Oriental Quarter (Masculine)
From IC to AC = Occidental Quarter (Feminine)

Oriental vs Occidental Planets in regard to their position with the Sun:
Inferior planets (Venus and Mercury), behind the Sun are Oriental, before the Sun are occidental.
Superior planets (Mars, Jupiter, Saturn), behind the Sun are occidental, before the Sun are oriental.

Omnisphericus
04-26-2012, 03:17 PM
http://i49.tinypic.com/2gt7m6f.png

Looking for the Almuten of Marriage.

1. 7th house Cusp on 27 Cancer
Moon 5, 3, 1
Jupiter 4
Venus 3
Mars 3
Saturn 2

2. Lord of the 7th, Moon in 12 Cancer
Moon 5, 3
Jupiter 4
Venus 3, 2
Mars 3
Mercury 1

3. (Planets in 7th),
a) Sun in 14 Leo
Sun 5, 3
Jupiter 3, 1
Saturn 3, 2

b) Mercury in 16 Leo
Sun 5, 3
Jupiter 3, 1
Saturn 3, 2

c) Mars at 25 Leo
Sun 5,3
Jupiter 3
Saturn 3
Mars 2, 1

4. Moon in 12 Cancer
Moon 5, 3
Jupiter 4
Venus 3, 2
Mars 3
Mercury 1

5. Venus at 0 Cancer
Moon 5, 3
Jupiter 4
Venus 3, 1
Mars 3, 2

6. Part of Marriage at 9 Aquarius
Saturn 5, 3
Mercury 3
Jupiter 3
Venus 2, 1

Total:
Moon 33
Jupiter 30
Venus 20
Mars 17
Sun 24

Moon is Almuten of Marriage.

1. The 7th house is afflicted by Cauda Draconis.
2. Ruler of 7th (Moon) is Cadent.
3. Part of Marriage in opposition to the Sun in 7th. The Lord Saturn is free from affliction.
4. Moon is cadent.
5. Venus is cadent.
6. The Almuten of these places (Moon) is cadent.

The Majority of significators are afflicted. Remember that the cadency of planet is one of the afflictions.
The Ruler of 1st is not in Aspect with the ruler of the 7th (which happened to be Almuten of Marriage). BUT, Moon is in Antiscia ("Hidden Conjunction") of Saturn. This makes them connected.
Connection between the Lord of 1st and 7th is simply showing that the man wants to copulate with women.

Bonatti says:
""If indeed the 7th
sign were Cancer or Scorpio or Pisces or there were a
conjunction of the lord of the 7th or its Almuten with the lord of the first or
its Alrnuten in these (signs) or from these (signs) or with one of them, it
signifies that the native will have many wives or a great number of other
women,"

It seems out that the man in our example simply wants to copulate with many women.

Venus angular or succedent shows marriage in youth.
In this man's chart Venus is in cadent 6th house. So, if the chart were promising marriage this man would have been married in older age.

"If the lords of the triplicity she is in are fortunate, strong and oriental,
it signifies that the native will contract a marriage in his youth and that
he will be fortunate with women and that he will (receive) delight from
them."

Triplicity Lords of Venus are:
Venus - cadent
Mars - angular (Under the Sun's Beams)
Venus - cadent

Moon is in the last quarter, so she's Occidental, another indication of postponed marriage.
Venus is also occidental to the Sun.
Mars the other triplicity Lord is also Occidental.

Omnisphericus
04-26-2012, 03:54 PM
What about gay people, how is this shown in the chart?

"And Aomar said that when Mercury were Almuten over Venus and the Moon or over the house of women and the Part of the same
or over many of these the delight of the native is in young boys and he delights in seducing them."

http://i46.tinypic.com/2n8yl2c.png

Venus at 7 Virgo
Mercury 5, 4
Moon 3
Venus 3, 2
Mars 3
Sun 1

Moon at 0 Sag
Jupiter 5, 3, 2
Sun 3
Saturn 3
Mercury 1

Mercury is Almuten alonside Jupiter.
But Mercury is Almuten of Venus only.

One more example.
http://i49.tinypic.com/rka1yd.png

Almuten of Venus is Mercury.
Almuten of Part of Marriage in Virgo is Mercury.
7th house is in term of Mercury.

Moog
04-26-2012, 05:45 PM
These are great posts Omnisphericus, I appreciate them, and I appreciate that you've made the charts a better size now, I can follow the threads far more easily.

May I ask what the source of this quote is, and what the 'house of women' refers to?

"And Aomar said that when Mercury were Almuten over Venus and the Moon or over the house of women and the Part of the same
or over many of these the delight of the native is in young boys and he delights in seducing them."

Omnisphericus
04-26-2012, 05:51 PM
According to Abu Ali.

If the sign on 7th house cusp is mobile (cardinal), it signifies marriage of many women.

It is the same when Moon is joined with many planets in same sign, or in Ictifal (applying conjunction, sextile, square, trine, opposition) to them from a trine or sextile aspect.

If the sign is common (mutable) he will marry only two women.

If it is fixed sign, or the Moon is Void of Course, or were joined to only one planet, or had Ictifal, it signifies that the man will contract matrimony with only one woman.

See also if there are Malefic planets in the 7th or 4th house because that signifies death of the spouse in man's chart, or the husband in the woman's chart.

Brad Pit's chart:
http://i48.tinypic.com/2ld7upu.jpg

Brad Pit was engaged in 3 public relationships:
Gwyneth Paltrow
Jennifer Anniston
Angelina Jolie

His Moon is in the same sign with other 3 planets. Mars, Mercury and Venus.
The sign of the 7th house cusp is Mutable and according to Abu Ali he should have been married with only 2 women.
He did indeed, because as far as I now, he didn't marry Gwyneth Paltrow, he only dated her for 3 years.
This may be indicated by the Moon's separation from Mercury applying to Venus (only 2 marriages, instead of 3 as Mars is also in the same sign).

Omnisphericus
04-26-2012, 05:52 PM
These are great posts Omnisphericus, I appreciate them, and I appreciate that you've made the charts a better size now, I can follow the threads far more easily.

May I ask what the source of this quote is, and what the 'house of women' refers to?

This is from the Zoller's Diploma Course, where he quotes Bonatti and Bonatti quotes Aomar :)

Omnisphericus
04-26-2012, 06:30 PM
Bonatti:
"The contracting of this matrimony will be when the year of the nativity
reaches to its 7th house 11 or when the 7th
were the Ascendant of the revolution of the nativity. This signifies a man'iage in that year; or it will be when the Moon comes by the direction to the planet which is significator of marriage."

Look at the Brad Pit's chart in the post above.
His Almuten of Marriage is Mars.
Venus is Oriental.
Moon is in the 1st Quarter = Oriental.

Brad Pit married Jennifer Aniston in 29 July 2000 when he was 36 years old.

and if she and the lords are occidental and are between the AC and IC or between DC and MC, or in the 2nd quarter of the Moon or in the last (occidental quarters), it signifies that the marriage of the natus is a little postponed and he will marry a little older woman in older years and he will be unfortunate because of women.

Venus and all the planets (except Jupiter) are in AC-IC quarter, Mars (Almuten of Marriage and triplicity lord of Venus and Moon) is occidental. Jennifer was 31 when she married Brad. 31 is really high number of years for a medieval society and they would not classified Jennifer as a girl but as a woman instead.
In one interview Brad said that the years with Jennifer were the hardest years of his life.

In the profected year of December 1999 Sag was the Profected Asc of Brad Pit's chart. This is the same as of the natal chart. In these years the promised in the natal chart is most likely that it should be fulfilled.

Jolie and Brad engaged officially on 12 April 2012 after 7 years of living together.
And this is again year in which the profected Ascendant is on the natal position.

Omnisphericus
04-26-2012, 09:32 PM
In Women's chart the Sun is of great importance.
According to Ptolemy we seek to find the Sun in the two Oriental Quadrants: from AC to MC, and from DC to IC, because this signifies that the woman will be married in her youth and that she will take young man in her older years, but not an older husband.
But when the Sun is in the Occidental quadrants (from AC to IC, and from DC to MC), then her marriage is delayed or in youth she will take older man.

If the Sun is from the beginning of Aries till the middle of Taurus,
or from the middle of Leo all the way to the end of Virgo,
or from the beginning of Libra all the way to the middle of Scorpio,
or from the middle of Aquarius till the end of Pisces, and the significator (In women's chart this is the Lord or Almuten of the 7th house) is Occidental, she will marry in old age or with older man.

If the significator is under the Sun's beams, it signifies that she has no marriage.

If the Sun is in fixed sign signifies that she will be married to one man only.
But if in that sign there is Oriental planet, you will judge that the man will be young or that she will marry another one after that.
If the planet is Occidental, then he will be older.

If the Sun is in mutable sign she will have two husbands.
If the Sun is in cardinal sign she will have many men.

http://i47.tinypic.com/15hsvn.png

This is the chart of Jennifer Aniston.
She was very publicly married with Brad Pit and had numerous broken relationships after that.
Her Sun is in fixed sign, so she married once.
The problem is that this Sun is afflicted from the Lord of the 7th and the Sun itself is Almuten of the 7th. This is (and other testimonies) what brought divorce.

Jennifer was 31 years old when she married Brad, so not so young. Brad was 36, a little bit older then her.
Sun is in the Oriental Quarter, but from the Middle of Aquarius till the End of Pisces which testifies that the she will take older man and in her older years (older from Medieval viewpoint).
With the Sun in the same sign there is occidental planet, which again testifies about older man and marriage in older years.

Omnisphericus
04-26-2012, 10:05 PM
We must see all or most of the following conditions:

- Saturn as Almuten of the 7th, neither Saturn nor the ruler of 7th are not aspecting the 7th.
- The Moon's dispositor not aspecting the Moon
- The Lord of the Part of Marriage of Men (according to Hermes) not aspecting the Part of Marriage.
- The Lord of the Sign in which Venus is, is not aspecting Venus.

http://i50.tinypic.com/tyzhu.png
This is a chart of a person who never get married, the chart was given on astro dot com.

Lord of the 7th - Jupiter is not aspecting the 7th house cusp.
Moon is in Cancer in her domicile, so I will take the exaltation ruler Jupiter as dispositor and he do not aspect the Moon.
If we take Mars as one of triplicity rulers and term ruler, he do not aspect the Moon either.
The dispositor of Venus (Mars) in 6th (cadent and combust!) is not aspecting Venus too.
Part of Marriage is in cancer so disposed with the Lord - Moon here.

On my own, I have also seen Cauda Draconis and Saturn in 5th as afflictions to romances in general.

So, many of the requirements are fulfilled, this man never married.

JUPITERASC
04-26-2012, 10:05 PM
This is very intriguing subject isn't it? :)

Well, I must mention in the very beginning in explaining the methods here that they are of medieval astrology type (Bonatti, Abu Ali, Al Khayat and etc.).
To say that the method is 'Traiditional' is really using very wide range of time span in which different techniques for delineating marriage were used.
For example, the Hellenistic Astrologer's (Valens, Dorotheus and etc.) have used methods on their own, methods which I'll probably (not even later) not explain on this thread, but we can open another thread for that matter.
As this section of Traditional Astrology is quite new and in its beginnings, we now trow out the techniques here and there and title them as "Traditional". I hope that in the future we can make sub sections of traditional astrology, such as: "Medieval Astrology", "Hellenistic Astrology", Renaissance Astrology" and etc..
A most intriguing subject indeed Omnisphericus and the guidance provided by you is much appreciated. :smile: Great idea to create specific sub-sections to distinguish "Medieval Astrology" from "Hellenistic Astrology" - as distinct from "Renaissance Astrology" as well

I agree that a separate thread illustrating the alternative approach of Hellenistic Astrologers' using the methods of Valens, Dorotheus et al would maintain the excellent standard of clarity and focus that you show

tsmall
04-26-2012, 11:07 PM
Part of Marriage for Men:
ASC + VE - SA

Part of Marriage for Women:
ASC + SA - VE

Moon Quarters:
From 0 degrees to 90 (New Moon to 1st quarter) = 1st QUARTER (Oriental)
From 90 to 180 = 2nd QUARTER (Occidental)
From 180 to 270 = 3rd QUARTER (Oriental)
From 270 to 360 = 4th QUARTER (Occidental)



I have two questions, if I may. The first, does the formula for calculating the Part of Marriage differ between day and night charts? And second, I am a bit confused about the Moon Quarters. I admit I am asking without looking for the answer first myself, but I understand that the degrees/quarters you show above represent the chart itself. Do we not then consider the Moon's actual phase in the chart? Perhaps I'm not explaining my question properly, so I will give a quick example. In my own chart, I have Moon at 27* Pisces, which is 163* from the ASC. That would place it in the second quarter. Yet, my moon is 6 hrs from completely full. Wouldn't that be the start of a 4th quarter Moon?

Omnisphericus
04-27-2012, 01:05 AM
I have two questions, if I may. The first, does the formula for calculating the Part of Marriage differ between day and night charts? And second, I am a bit confused about the Moon Quarters. I admit I am asking without looking for the answer first myself, but I understand that the degrees/quarters you show above represent the chart itself. Do we not then consider the Moon's actual phase in the chart? Perhaps I'm not explaining my question properly, so I will give a quick example. In my own chart, I have Moon at 27* Pisces, which is 163* from the ASC. That would place it in the second quarter. Yet, my moon is 6 hrs from completely full. Wouldn't that be the start of a 4th quarter Moon?

The Part of Marriage is the same for night and day, because if you reverse it, it will become the Part for the opposite sex.

If your Moon is 163 from the Ascendant she is in the 3rd quarter.
First quarter is that of AC - MC, second MC-DC, third from DC to IC, nad fourth from IC to AC. This is the Moon's placement in the Chart's Quarters.
But I was talking about the Moon phases, not the Moon's placement in the chart's quarters.
When we say that the First Quarter of the Moon's phase is 0 to 90 degrees, this means that she is 0 to 90 degrees apart from the Sun. 180 is Moon in opposition to the Sun and 0 degrees is conjunction with the Sun.

tsmall
04-27-2012, 01:19 AM
The Part of Marriage is the same for night and day, because if you reverse it, it will become the Part for the opposite sex.

If your Moon is 163 from the Ascendant she is in the 3rd quarter.
First quarter is that of AC - MC, second MC-DC, third from DC to IC, nad fourth from IC to AC. This is the Moon's placement in the Chart's Quarters.
But I was talking about the Moon phases, not the Moon's placement in the chart's quarters.
When we say that the First Quarter of the Moon's phase is 0 to 90 degrees, this means that she is 0 to 90 degrees apart from the Sun. 180 is Moon in opposition to the Sun and 0 degrees is conjunction with the Sun.

Thanks! Just for clarity, and specificity, we would always consider, using this method, that from the time the Moon is 90* from the Sun until the Moon reaches 180* from the Sun it is still 3rd quarter? So that even 179* from the Sun, which would read as an opposition/full Moon in the chart, it is still third quarter?

Omnisphericus
04-27-2012, 01:39 AM
Thanks! Just for clarity, and specificity, we would always consider, using this method, that from the time the Moon is 90* from the Sun until the Moon reaches 180* from the Sun it is still 3rd quarter? So that even 179* from the Sun, which would read as an opposition/full Moon in the chart, it is still third quarter?

Technically yes :)
There are nor orbs for Moon phases.

Actually, it is 2nd quarter.

tsmall
04-27-2012, 01:47 AM
Technically yes :)
There are nor orbs for Moon phases.

Actually, it is 2nd quarter.

Oops. Sigh. That's what happens when you multi-task. Thank you so much, Omnisphericus, for all that you are explaining here!

Omnisphericus
04-27-2012, 01:53 AM
- One of the possible timing period for Predicting Marriage is when the Profected 7th house come to the Ascendant.
These are the years 18, 30, 42, 54, 66 and etc..

- It is possible to marry when the Profected 7th House come to the house where the ruler of 7th is in natal chart.
(Also be aware of the years when Ascendant or DC comes to the Signs which are ruled by the ruler of the 7th house.

- Watch out when the 7th house becomes Ascendant in the Solar Return.

- Direction of the Moon to the planet which is significator of Marriage in the chart. In male chart this significator is the Almuten of Marriage which we have calculated in the first post above.
In women's chart Significator is the ruler or Almuten of the 7th.

Omnisphericus
04-27-2012, 02:52 AM
http://i50.tinypic.com/141nqt.png

I'm having problems with Morinus software so I will post this chart in Solar Fire format.

Louisa May Alcott is 19th century writer who is well known for her book Little Woman.
She died at 50 years of age from a disease. She never get married.

Lets look at the chart.

According to Ptolemy:

" ... in the marriages of women we ought to consider the Solar qualities in their nativities ... if the Sun were between the Ascendant and the 4th or between the 7th and the 10th her marriage is delayed."

Her Sun is in 3rd, so in the AC - IC quarter = her marriage is delayed; in fact never happened.

In many occasions, number of aspects Sun makes is giving the number of important relationships the woman will have.
If you notice here, the Sun does not make any close aspects with none of the planets.

Note the modern named T-Square between Saturn in 1st, Jupiter in 7th and Mercury in 4th. This is quite important.

Omnisphericus
04-27-2012, 03:32 AM
http://i45.tinypic.com/2zs4039.png

This is the chart of Hans Christian Andersen, the very famous writer.
He died at age of 70. He never get married though he was heterosexual according to his diary. It is very intriguing that according to the very same diary he never get involved in sexual act either. He stayed a virgin for the whole life. This is not proved but it may be so.
He was very amorous like and had a longing heart. He fell in love in the 18th years old daughter of his friend. She was not interested in him and ask him to stop his amorous letters.

Mercury is Almuten of Marriage, i.e. Significator of Marriage.
Mercury is combust and cadent in 3rd in the AC-IC section.

The dispositor of the Moon is not aspecting the Moon.
Dispositor of Venus is not aspecting Venus.
Venus is applying to no planet before she changes the sign, but only that Venus with a huge applying sextile.

Omnisphericus
04-28-2012, 12:58 AM
http://i47.tinypic.com/4iijhi.png

How do we know that this person would marry 4 times?
There are 4 planets between the Sun and MC!
:)

How did I get this?

Italian Astrologer Grazia Bordoni revealed a document of an unknown italian astrologer who got reading for the nobleman Alfonso D'Este.
You can read the article (with google translate) here:
http://www.armonics2zero.it/index.php/angolo-esperto/un-oroscopo-rinascimentale-la-genitura-di-alfonso-deste/

In the reading the unknown astrologer had predicted to Alfonso D'este that he will have 2 marriages because there are 2 planets between Venus and MC.
Venus is significator for men's chart, but Sun for female chart and this is why in the chart the number of planets between the Sun and MC is showing the exact number of marriages of Christina Onassis.

Omnisphericus
04-28-2012, 03:32 AM
Number of planets between Venus and MC in male chart shows the number of spouses.
Number of planets between Mars and MC in female chart shows number of husbands.
(If Mars happens to be on MC then you take Jupiter instead of Mars).

Omnisphericus
04-28-2012, 03:38 PM
http://i46.tinypic.com/2u6i7o4.png

Prediction of Marriage in 21st century is a little bit heavier then it would have been in Medieval times. This is because today there are more and more couples who do not accept the official institution of Marriage. They live together but they are not officially married. Such is the example of Oprah Whinfrey and Stedman Graham the chart of who we are giving here.

As you can see, between Venus and MC there are no planets, so the person according to this technique would never get married. This is not always so, but in this particular example it is exactly like that.

"Graham and Winfrey were engaged to be married in November 1992, but later decided they would rather have a "spiritual union."

This is from wikipedia. They still live together but they are not married.

The ruler of DC (where also Part of Marriage happened to be in this chart) is not seeing its place of rulership. In this case it is Venus, which is also in Fall.
It is in aversion to the sign which rules on DC.
Venus is also cadent in 6th.

"But if the Moon were combust and Saturn shall aspect her from the
opposition or square aspect and Jupiter does not aspect her nor does Saturn
receive her, it signifies that the native will not accept a wife."

Moon is combust, Saturn aspect her by Sign Antiscia.

"But if she were joined with Mercury, it signifies that the wife will be learned, well cultivating intelligence."

Moon is with Mercury. Well, Oprah is not his wife, it is his girlfriend, but this description applies to her.

Omnisphericus
04-28-2012, 05:35 PM
http://i45.tinypic.com/rjky1y.png

This is the chart of Lord Byron.
On several occasions he was accused for committing incest. Namely, the one that it is proven is with his half sister.

Ptolemy said:
But if in
masculine nativities the Moon were joined with Venus, Mars and Saturn,
it will signify that the native commits incest with two sisters or with two
of his relatives or with those belonging to the kinship of his parents.

Well, Moon, Mars, Venus and Saturn are not joined together, but look how they are grouped in two: Moon and Mars together, and Venus and Saturn together.

"And Ptolemy said, if Venus and Saturn were in signs common to them,
as are Capricorn and Libra the marriage will be between blood relatives.
Moreover, if the Moon were of the aforesaid quality (in its own sign or the signs of Saturn and Venus?) and that quality
shall rule in the Ascendant or Medium Caeli, the native will perform
the venereal act with his mother or step mother or maternal aunt, but a
woman will perform the venereal act and dally with her own offspring or
father or sister's child or with her own kind or paternal uncle or mother's
husband."

astrodatabank gives this event in his data:
Relationship : First Sex 1797 (Age nine when nurse "awakened passions.")

The Nurse is a representative of the Mother.
Striking similarities isn't it?

Example 2
http://i46.tinypic.com/28v6gdt.png

"And he said that if the Sun should be of this aforesaid quality, and the planets were occidental, the native will commit incest with the daughters of his brother or sister or with his own children."

This is a man who perpetrated incest on his daughter.
Look all the planets in Aquarius:
Sun/Venus/Saturn/Caput Draconis/Mercury/Mars

preeshuu
05-01-2012, 04:31 AM
hi ,

so for males its Venus and for females mars or sun ?

rgds

Number of planets between Venus and MC in male chart shows the number of spouses.
Number of planets between Mars and MC in female chart shows number of husbands.
(If Mars happens to be on MC then you take Jupiter instead of Mars).

Omnisphericus
05-01-2012, 05:04 AM
hi ,

so for males its Venus and for females mars or sun ?

rgds

Well, in my experience it is as follows.
If Venus in male chart is in the IC-AC-MC Section, than you count number of planets between Venus and MC in counter-clockwise motion of the Zodiac.
If Venus is in IC-DC-MC Section, you count number of planets between Venus and MC in the Zodiacal order of the planets.

In female chart you take Sun instead of Venus.
But Dorotheus suggest to look at Mars, or in Jupiter.
Some further experimentation need to be done in this field.

Erickaf
05-02-2012, 11:48 PM
..................................

Zuri
07-03-2012, 08:04 PM
Well, in my experience it is as follows.
If Venus in male chart is in the IC-AC-MC Section, than you count number of planets between Venus and MC in counter-clockwise motion of the Zodiac.
If Venus is in IC-DC-MC Section, you count number of planets between Venus and MC in the Zodiacal order of the planets.

In female chart you take Sun instead of Venus.
But Dorotheus suggest to look at Mars, or in Jupiter.
Some further experimentation need to be done in this field.

Tom Cruise's chart shows that he would only have no marriages (his Venus is in the 10th house), but yet he has had three marriages so far? Or am I interpreting his chart (below) wrong?

http://www.astrotheme.com/images/carte.php?ID=50

Erickaf
10-05-2012, 07:45 PM
Bonatti:


Look at the Brad Pit's chart in the post above.
His Almuten of Marriage is Mars.
Venus is Oriental.
Moon is in the 1st Quarter = Oriental.

Brad Pit married Jennifer Aniston in 29 July 2000 when he was 36 years old.

and if she and the lords are occidental and are between the AC and IC or between DC and MC, or in the 2nd quarter of the Moon or in the last (occidental quarters), it signifies that the marriage of the natus is a little postponed and he will marry a little older woman in older years and he will be unfortunate because of women.

Venus and all the planets (except Jupiter) are in AC-IC quarter, Mars (Almuten of Marriage and triplicity lord of Venus and Moon) is occidental. Jennifer was 31 when she married Brad. 31 is really high number of years for a medieval society and they would not classified Jennifer as a girl but as a woman instead.
In one interview Brad said that the years with Jennifer were the hardest years of his life.

In the profected year of December 1999 Sag was the Profected Asc of Brad Pit's chart. This is the same as of the natal chart. In these years the promised in the natal chart is most likely that it should be fulfilled.

Jolie and Brad engaged officially on 12 April 2012 after 7 years of living together.
And this is again year in which the profected Ascendant is on the natal position.
Hey I think Brad's Venus is Occidental not Oriental, or am I missing something here?

Amy
10-05-2012, 07:52 PM
This guy Omni never came back

Erickaf
10-05-2012, 07:53 PM
where did he go?

JUPITERASC
10-05-2012, 08:07 PM
where did he go?
Cyberspace - posting on other forums most likely - why not send an email? :smile:

Omnisphericus
10-07-2012, 12:57 AM
Hey I think Brad's Venus is Occidental not Oriental, or am I missing something here?

Hi.
I was going with the Robert Zoller's definition of regarding the inferiors (Mercury and Venus) as "Oriental" when they are behind the Sun (in Primary Motion) and "Occidental" when they are in front of the Sun (in Primary Motion).
He teaches this in his Diploma Course.

What is the logic behind this?
While the Superior Planets are said to be Oriental when they are living the Sun's rays (Saturn and Jupiter 15 degrees, Mars 18 degrees) and direct increasing in speed and strength in their own light they would Rise before the Sun, because they are East from the Sun or in fewer zodiacal degrees (from the right [our left] of the Sun); the inferior planets are direct and are going out of the Sun's rays when they are in the West side of the Sun, i.e. from the left [our right], or in front of the Sun (in later zodiacal degrees). It is a consideration of power. They are technically occidental because they would Rise After the Sun, i.e. will set after the Sun; but they are called "Oriental" in likeness to the power they have when they are direct and going out of the Sun's beams.
They are said to be vespertine when they are occidental to the Sun, and matutine when they are oriental to the Sun (in true sense). Therefore Ptolemy says that Vespertine Inferiors are better then Matutine, because they are on the side of the Sun where they are direct and going out of the Sun's beams.
Going out of the Sun's beams was kind of a strength for a planet. Ptolemy says that this brings "intensity" and Rhetorius advises us to look 7 days before and 7 days after the birth if some star (planet!) is going out of the Sun's beams or into it.
Inferiors goes under the Sun's beams when they are retrograde from the left side of the Sun, i.e. vespertine, and when they are matutine and direct.
But they go OUT of the Sun's beams (planetary strength) when they are matutine and retrograde, and when they are vespertine and direct.
So being Direct and going out of the Sun's beams was said to be the greatest strength of the planet, and because for the inferiors this happens when they are vespertine or in a technical term "occidental", hence Zoller decided to use the term "Oriental" for the inferiors when they are in fact occidental, i.e. rising after the Sun.
It is a tricky mess-up, and maybe you'll need to re-read the post more times to get the sense of it, but once you've got it, the rewards are long lasting :)

JUPITERASC
10-07-2012, 06:53 PM
Hi.
I was going with the Robert Zoller's definition of regarding the inferiors (Mercury and Venus) as "Oriental" when they are behind the Sun (in Primary Motion) and "Occidental" when they are in front of the Sun (in Primary Motion).
He teaches this in his Diploma Course.

What is the logic behind this?
While the Superior Planets are said to be Oriental when they are living the Sun's rays (Saturn and Jupiter 15 degrees, Mars 18 degrees) and direct increasing in speed and strength in their own light they would Rise before the Sun, because they are East from the Sun or in fewer zodiacal degrees (from the right [our left] of the Sun); the inferior planets are direct and are going out of the Sun's rays when they are in the West side of the Sun, i.e. from the left [our right], or in front of the Sun (in later zodiacal degrees). It is a consideration of power. They are technically occidental because they would Rise After the Sun, i.e. will set after the Sun; but they are called "Oriental" in likeness to the power they have when they are direct and going out of the Sun's beams.
They are said to be vespertine when they are occidental to the Sun, and matutine when they are oriental to the Sun (in true sense). Therefore Ptolemy says that Vespertine Inferiors are better then Matutine, because they are on the side of the Sun where they are direct and going out of the Sun's beams.
Going out of the Sun's beams was kind of a strength for a planet. Ptolemy says that this brings "intensity" and Rhetorius advises us to look 7 days before and 7 days after the birth if some star (planet!) is going out of the Sun's beams or into it.
Inferiors goes under the Sun's beams when they are retrograde from the left side of the Sun, i.e. vespertine, and when they are matutine and direct.
But they go OUT of the Sun's beams (planetary strength) when they are matutine and retrograde, and when they are vespertine and direct.
So being Direct and going out of the Sun's beams was said to be the greatest strength of the planet, and because for the inferiors this happens when they are vespertine or in a technical term "occidental", hence Zoller decided to use the term "Oriental" for the inferiors when they are in fact occidental, i.e. rising after the Sun.
It is a tricky mess-up, and maybe you'll need to re-read the post more times to get the sense of it, but once you've got it, the rewards are long lasting :)
Thank you for these detailed explanations Omnisphericus, your work is much appreciated - particularly since medieval methods can be complex to fathom :smile:

wintersprite1
10-08-2012, 06:20 PM
I have deleted a number of responses that have gone off topic. If a member has an issue with another, the forum is not the appropriate venue to vent. Please hit the alarm feature so a moderator is made aware of any problems and can then decide appropriate action.

TK

Angels
11-23-2012, 03:05 PM
Originally Posted by Omnisphericus
In Women's chart the Sun is of great importance.

According to Ptolemy we seek to find the Sun in the two Oriental Quadrants: from AC to MC, and from DC to IC, because this signifies that the woman will be married in her youth and that she will take young man in her older years, but not an older husband.

But when the Sun is in the Occidental quadrants (from AC to IC, and from DC to MC), then her marriage is delayed or in youth she will take older man.

If the Sun is from the beginning of Aries till the middle of Taurus,
or from the middle of Leo all the way to the end of Virgo,
or from the beginning of Libra all the way to the middle of Scorpio,
or from the middle of Aquarius till the end of Pisces, and the significator (In women's chart this is the Lord or Almuten of the 7th house) is Occidental, she will marry in old age or with older man.

If the significator is under the Sun's beams, it signifies that she has no marriage.
If the Sun is in fixed sign signifies that she will be married to one man only.
But if in that sign there is Oriental planet, you will judge that the man will be young or that she will marry another one after that.
If the planet is Occidental, then he will be older.

If the Sun is in mutable sign she will have two husbands.
If the Sun is in cardinal sign she will have many men.



what does this theory says about my chart?:sad:

sethi
10-26-2013, 10:49 AM
Number of planets between Venus and MC in male chart shows the number of spouses.
Number of planets between Mars and MC in female chart shows number of husbands.
(If Mars happens to be on MC then you take Jupiter instead of Mars).


Is this correct?

Pls check my chart and tell me the number of marriages I will have

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/album.php?albumid=795&pictureid=3915

Abby83
01-01-2015, 01:18 PM
I don't know if anyone is till looking at this thread but...

I calculated mercury to be my almuten of marriage. It has good aspects in my chart. So that would mean a good marriage? I have one planet between mars and mc indicating one husband? But my sun is oriental in a cardinal sign meaning many lovers and one younger partner when im older, is that correct?

Arena
01-01-2015, 02:03 PM
Abby83 and others in here

I've been through what is said here by traditional method of delinating marriages or relationships. I am now 42 yrs old and have had many men - and a few longer term relationships. I would consider two men of those to be my husbands. One of them I married when I was 25 and the other one I am with now for 8 yrs and we have children and are in registered relationship. My first husband was same age that I am and my current partner is 10 yrs younger than me.

This could fit with my sidereal chart, but not my tropical chart by what has been said in here.

By sidereal chart my Sun is in Cancer, a cardinal sign (many men).
By tropical chart my Sun would be in Leo, fixed (one man).

Sun has Mercury and Mars in same sign, following (rising after the Sun) so occidental.

Looking into this statement:
Number of planets between Mars and MC in female chart shows number of husbands.

I would guess we look at the shorter distance between Mars and MC and we count ONLY the traditional 7 planets? Since this is a traditional method.

That would mean I should have only ONE man, since Jupiter is the only traditional planet between Mars and MC. But if counting the outers, there would be more.

But what I do not understand is why we use the Sun - but then count planets between MARS and MC - why not from Sun to MC?

If I count from Sun to MC, that would be 3 planets.

Dirius
01-01-2015, 03:07 PM
Arena remember that the methods, while accurate, are not "exact". And every chart is a bit different.

Also remember that these methods need to be updated to apply to our modern society. For example, bonatti lived in medieval Europe (13th century):

- Getting married "young" was getting married at age 13-17, for both male and female (although particularly for females). Getting married "old" could be considered from ages 25-30, and something like that.

- There was no divorce or breaking up in those times. A marriage was over when one of the spouses died. And in those time's with no proper medicine, simple complications could take someone's life, and people did die much younger, or for simpler causes than today.

So according to Bonatti's method someone could, perhaps, have like 4 husbands in their natal chart. Yet since, it is more likely that these "husbands" will be alive, its also likely those relationships will endure much longer.

Of course I am NOT talking about your particular case, just mentioning there are some stuff we need to take into consideration, so we can understand that the method, while extremely good, is not 100% accurate, because "marriage" in the traditional sense is not the same now (neither is age, life, work, etc).

:tongue::annoyed::bandit:

Arena
01-01-2015, 03:25 PM
Yes very true Dirius.

But if the methods work, they will also produce answers for us in today's world. So the ancients view or astrological meanings will still be similar for cardinal sign (active, on the go, ever changing), fixed (stable and likely to stay very very long in relationships - or at least longer than the other) and mutable (having more than one partner at the same time even, need for variety).

We must admit, that although the world has indeed changed - there are still some people in today's world that stay with the same spouse all their life. Sound like a fixed energy. There are still others that are ever changing and active in this area, much more so than others (cardinal) and there are still those who cheat on their spouses (mutable energy).

In my case, it is most clear that sidereal does fit better with this view than does tropical. Although I must state that Venus in my case is in Gemini and Jupiter is in Sagi in both systems. But both Sun and Moon and ASC change., Sun in cardinal Cancer instead of fixed Leo and Moon in cardinal Aries instead of fixed Taurus (that should also give long lasting relationships).

In both charts my Sun is oriental, so this statement describes my life well since in my "older years" I've taken a man much younger than myself.
According to Ptolemy we seek to find the Sun in the two Oriental Quadrants: from AC to MC, and from DC to IC, because this signifies that the woman will be married in her youth and that she will take young man in her older years, but not an older husband.


I'm just pointing out the fact that by these methods it seems to fit much better with the sidereal chart than tropical. I had my first relationship from young age, 16-19 ... then next one from 21-23 ... then from 23-29 (married) ... then a shorter one at 31 and the current one from 34-42 ... and in between a few others. Does not sound like the fixed Sun Leo-Moon Taurus relationships to me :)

IF we add to this picture some of the astrological "truths" about the ruler of 7th - since it must also play a big role in all this picture. Makes much more sense in sidereal for me as well. Would be Jupiter, placed in 7th Sagi.
If taking tropical it would be Capi Saturn, placed in 12th. Makes no sense at all with this history of relationships/love matters. Capricorn in 7th has the usual meaning of having a much older spouse (I've not had any relationship at all having a much older partner... they are usually same age, or younger). Capricorn in 7th can also mean wanting a marriage that secures you financially, being attracted to stability. Well, that has never been the case for me :) Just saying, it has indeed been really worthwhile to look into and study my sidereal chart to make the comparison. It makes much more sense in all astrological sense.

Dirius
01-01-2015, 04:15 PM
Of course, I was merely talking about some concepts.

So I agree the method works wells.

:biggrin:

Anyways, having the marriage significators in "fixed" signs doesn't imply healthy long well established relationships. Nor does, having for example capricorn as ruler of the 7th imply and "older" person or a "secure" marriage.

Those defitinions of the planets as people work in some specific situations, but shouldn't be taken as literal descriptions. It is usually a combination of the 7th lord + venus + moon + the signs they fall in, that they "sort" of give a description. But to be honest, since so many factors are involded is always reaaaaally hard to get it right.

Remember also that this particular method was Bonatti's...and there are other authos that, while having similar methods, vary a bit. It is also helpfull to know bonatti, for example, use Porphyry house system and tropical zodiac. So it can vary depending on the chart.

tikana
01-01-2015, 04:21 PM
lol in my chart lol sun is void no application to anything:devil::devil::devil: and its in fixed sign

Arena
01-01-2015, 04:24 PM
I guess it is appropriate to also look into my partner's chart for this method.

By sidereal chart his Venus is in fixed Leo and oriental quarter and there is only one planet between Venus and MC, the Moon. This certainly fits much better with his love life story than does a tropical Venus in mutable Virgo. He only had one girlfriend before me, that was in his teenage years - and no other lovers. So I am his only real long term relationship.

My ex husband's chart shows his Venus in occidental quarter if the birth time is right and there are three planets between it and MC, counting either way. He married me, then we divorced and he had a baby with one woman - did not marry her or have a relationship with her (but she probably does count as one of those planets since they have a child together and therefore are in touch with each other all their lives) and now he has his third woman with whom he has had 3 children with and has stayed with for long term. Sidereal chart shows his Venus in cardinal Aries and tropical chart shows his Venus in fixed Taurus. He is more of a Venus in Aries type, had quite a few lovers and obviously more than one "marriage".

JUPITERASC
01-01-2015, 05:16 PM
I guess it is appropriate to also look into my partner's chart for this method.

By sidereal chart his Venus is in fixed Leo and oriental quarter and there is only one planet between Venus and MC, the Moon. This certainly fits much better with his love life story than does a tropical Venus in mutable Virgo. He only had one girlfriend before me, that was in his teenage years - and no other lovers. So I am his only real long term relationship.

My ex husband's chart shows his Venus in occidental quarter if the birth time is right and there are three planets between it and MC, counting either way. He married me, then we divorced and he had a baby with one woman - did not marry her or have a relationship with her (but she probably does count as one of those planets since they have a child together and therefore are in touch with each other all their lives) and now he has his third woman with whom he has had 3 children with and has stayed with for long term. Sidereal chart shows his Venus in cardinal Aries and tropical chart shows his Venus in fixed Taurus. He is more of a Venus in Aries type, had quite a few lovers and obviously more than one "marriage".
Omnisphericus posted a brief summary of the technique for delineating Marriage :smile:



This is very intriguing subject isn't it? :)

Well, I must mention in the very beginning in explaining the methods here that they are of medieval astrology type (Bonatti, Abu Ali, Al Khayat and etc.).
To say that the method is 'Traiditional' is really using very wide range of time span in which different techniques for delineating marriage were used.
For example, the Hellenistic Astrologer's (Valens, Dorotheus and etc.) have used methods on their own, methods which I'll probably (not even later) not explain on this thread, but we can open another thread for that matter.
As this section of Traditional Astrology is quite new and in its beginnings, we now trow out the techniques here and there and title them as "Traditional". I hope that in the future we can make sub sections of traditional astrology, such as: "Medieval Astrology", "Hellenistic Astrology", Renaissance Astrology" and etc..

There are certain rules in Medieval Astrology compiled
which can give quite good and workable methods for delineating marriage.
The rules one can learn for a short period of time,
but the practice is what is needed
in order these rules to become second nature of the astrologer's intuitive tool in delineating such things as Marriage in the chart.
This is what I would like to do on this thread:
to practice as much charts as I/we will have the time to do it.


The Technique

The Compound Almuten is what is very practical thing in almost all methods used in medieval delineation. It seems that Bonatti and other medievals were very fond on Compound Almutens.
I will first give delineation for male charts, and in some later post will explain the delineation for female charts.

Finding the Compound Almuten for Marriage:

Find the Rulers of all 5 dignities for these places:

1. 7th house cusp

2. Lord of the 7th house

3. Planets in 7th house (if any)

4. Moon

5. Venus

6. Part of Marriage (According to Hermes) (ASC + VE - SA) for Men.

The Planet which gets most points over these places is Almuten of Marriage.
But consider also if there are impediments to these places.
If there is affliction to 7th house (by some Malefic's square or opposition), to the Moon (aspect, combust, cadent, retrograde and etc.)

See if one of the individiaul Almutens over these places is joined to the Lord of the Ascendant or its Almuten or the Lord of the 7th or its Almuten.
If they are in trine or sextile, and if especially in reception, then the native will rejoice in living beautiful life with his wife according to his desire.

But if the aspects were without reception, or if the aspects were square or opposition, then the significations will be judged lower.

Bonatti:



Example:
http://i47.tinypic.com/35kl8as.png

This is the chart of Akihito, Emperor of Japan

His chart is given on astrodatabank site as a chart of a man with successful marriage.

First we make Compound Almuten for these places:

1. 7th House Cusp at 28 Gemini:
Mercury 5, 3,
Saturn 3, 2
Jupiter 3
Sun 1

2. Ruler of 7th, Mercury in 16 Sag
Jupiter 5, 3
Sun 3
Saturn 3
Venus 2
Moon 1

3. Planets in 7th - there are no planets here

4. Moon 20 Pisces
Jupiter 5
Venus 4, 3
Mars, 3, 2, 1
Moon 3

5. Venus 15 Aquarius
Saturn 5, 3
Mercury, 3, 1
Jupiter 3, 2

6 Part of Marriage at 29 Sag
Jupiter 5, 3
Sun 3
Saturn 3, 1
Mars 2

Total:
Mercury 12
Saturn 20
Jupiter 29

No need to calculate further, Jupiter is Almuten of Marriage.
Look how strong is that Jupiter up there on MC.
He is receiving the Sun by sextile and the Part of Marriage on the Ascendant.

7th house cusp not impeded.
Its lord - Mercury, cadent (but in the first sign), not afflicted by Malefic's square or opposition, not by combustion.
Moon - not afflicted.
Venus - Saturn receives here in Aquarius.
Part of Marriage not afflicted, but indeed highlightened by ASC and Sun.

Lord (and also Almuten) of the 1st, and the Lord (and also Almuten) of the 7th are in Sextile. Jupiter receives Mercury.

Quite fortunate chart for marriage.

Arena
01-01-2015, 06:19 PM
Well, the use of tropical vs sidereal in ancient times seems vague ... f.ex. it seems like Valens used sidereal for measurement of zodiac even though many believe that he used tropical.

Do we have real proof that Bonatti did use tropical? The zodiacs were much closer in degree in 13th century than they are now, therefore less difference.

Yes, JA, I did see this method as well with the Almuten - it was just a bit too much to go through all those calculations right now :)

Anyways, Happy New Year to you all!

JUPITERASC
01-01-2015, 07:01 PM
Well, the use of tropical vs sidereal in ancient times seems vague ...

f.ex. it seems like Valens used sidereal for measurement of zodiac

even though many believe that he used tropical.

Do we have real proof that Bonatti did use tropical?
The zodiacs were much closer in degree in 13th century than they are now, therefore less difference.

Yes, JA, I did see this method as well with the Almuten - it was just a bit too much to go through all those calculations right now :)

Anyways, Happy New Year to you all!


Thanks Arena and Happy New Year to all as well :smile:
Perhaps 2015 is a year when we shall find more answers to this 'enigma'

After two thousand years have passed
techniques that have been translated from one ancient language to another
before being then translated into modern English
require dedicated study and there are those who are keen to do these studies
some discussion at http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8579&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Dirius
01-01-2015, 11:36 PM
Do we have real proof that Bonatti did use tropical? The zodiacs were much closer in degree in 13th century than they are now, therefore less difference.


We really shouldn't get into this discussion (given this is a marriage thread), so perhaps we can create a new topic regarding sidereal vs tropical zodiac? I really don't want to derail the thread from its original topic, but I want to answer arena regarding bonatti using tropical.

But I will mention:

We do have proof that Bonatti used the tropical zodiac:

From Liber Astronomiae, Second Tractate Part 1:

I shall speak therefore, following in the footsteps of our venerable predecessors, of things which are useful in this work, remembering their opinions, namely those of Ptolemy, Hermes, Iaphar, Thebit, Alchabitius, Alcaiat, Alchindi, Alenzedegoz, Messala, Adila, Iergis, Albenait, Aardimon, Arestali, and others who studied in this science.

and a few paragrapths later he says:

It has been said in the preceding chapter why the signs were ordered the way they are. In this chapter it must be declared why the enumeration begins from Aries and not from some other one of the signs, since the heaven is spherical body and every sphere lacks a beginning. And since it lacks a beginning, it also lacks and end; and since it lacks a beginning and an end, it lacks a middle point which is excluded in corporeal substance. The enumeration of the signs began with Aries because the circle of the signs intersects the circle of the equator at the beginning of Aries and at the point opposite to it, not at a right angle but obliquely. Thus, six signs are northern and six southern, as is discussed more broadly elsewhere. The part which is norther is stronger than that which is southern, because when the Sun leaves Pisces, it enters Aries, and Aries is the first sign of the northern part.

Another reason why the enumeration of the signs began from Aries, is because when the Sun enters Aries, the days begin to become longer than the nights; whence, since increse is a noble thing, the wise of this art were agreed that the enumeration of the signs ought to begin with the one in which the increase begins.

Here he talks about the Spring equinox. In "sidereal" astrology, Aries won't always be the spring equinox. Besides most of the authors he mentions in the first paragraph are Tropical users. So bonatti did use tropical zodiac. I would like to know where the idea of Vallens using sidereal comes from, if we might continue this on another thread?

tsmall
01-02-2015, 12:27 AM
We really shouldn't get into this discussion (given this is a marriage thread), so perhaps we can create a new topic regarding sidereal vs tropical zodiac?

There are many already here on the forum. One only has to search to find them.

Arena, while the method outlined by Omni is good, it is not thorough. This is why learning traditional astrology cannot happen on the internet alone. There was a time early in my study when I thought perhaps sidereal worked better with my chart as well. I've since learned more about the techniques, and, well, grown. That doesn't mean I don't still find sidereal valid (and I do believe that Valens was using the tropical zodiac as well...I am looking for a reference for verification...) and for certain Martin Gansten is a traditional astrologer who has had great success using traditional methods in the sidereal zodiac.

http://www.martingansten.com/

Abby, you said

I calculated mercury to be my almuten of marriage. It has good aspects in my chart. So that would mean a good marriage?

You would need to define "good aspects" and then also take a peek at sect/domain and house position. Is the almuten of marriage impeded in anyway? How about the lord/lady of the 7th directly? Can that planet (or the almuten) regard the 7th? If not, does it give or receive testimony from a planet who can? If so, which and how? And then there is the reality that while the chart may show something, life can get in the way. This is why pinpointing times of marriage, for example, requires more than just a natal chart. We have derivative charts for a reason.

Abby83
01-02-2015, 02:54 AM
There are many already here on the forum. One only has to search to find them.

Arena, while the method outlined by Omni is good, it is not thorough. This is why learning traditional astrology cannot happen on the internet alone. There was a time early in my study when I thought perhaps sidereal worked better with my chart as well. I've since learned more about the techniques, and, well, grown. That doesn't mean I don't still find sidereal valid (and I do believe that Valens was using the tropical zodiac as well...I am looking for a reference for verification...) and for certain Martin Gansten is a traditional astrologer who has had great success using traditional methods in the sidereal zodiac.

http://www.martingansten.com/

Abby, you said



You would need to define "good aspects" and then also take a peek at sect/domain and house position. Is the almuten of marriage impeded in anyway? How about the lord/lady of the 7th directly? Can that planet (or the almuten) regard the 7th? If not, does it give or receive testimony from a planet who can? If so, which and how? And then there is the reality that while the chart may show something, life can get in the way. This is why pinpointing times of marriage, for example, requires more than just a natal chart. We have derivative charts for a reason.

Thanks. So in the 7th house I have chiron and north node Gemini. The chiron trines mercury (mercury is my almuten of marriage), mercury is in libra in 11th house and also has mutual reception to venus in virgo 11th house. Mercury sextiles Uranus in sag 1st house. The lord of 7th is my venus in virgo which sextiles Saturn and square Uranus and squares chiron 7th house. So based on that, I don't know how to read further what that means for the marriage or how many partners. I mean I know the mercury in libra 11th house is a good thing as well as it's mutual reception to venus. But how to I translate that.

Oh and the only poor aspect I can see is mercury square Neptune 7 degrees wide.

tikana
01-02-2015, 02:57 AM
Abby

drop chiron or Tsmall will come out with a loaned battle-axe from me at you. Libras are not kind gentle peace lovng signs.. i can attest with it with my libra merc. Do i look like peace loving person when it comes to communication to you? uh huh...
She will recreate the Battle of Actium. I know her. lol

and she will warcry "This is Hellenistic Astrology!"

if you bring chiron to me, you will get Kuzka's mother (google it). we are not nice towards chiron

just warning you
T

Abby83
01-02-2015, 03:03 AM
Tikana,

Why is that? Not a fan of chiron?

tikana
01-02-2015, 03:05 AM
trad astrology does not use chiron.
chiron was discovered after pluto

tsmall
01-02-2015, 03:32 AM
Thanks. So in the 7th house I have chiron and north node Gemini. The chiron trines mercury (mercury is my almuten of marriage), mercury is in libra in 11th house and also has mutual reception to venus in virgo 11th house. Mercury sextiles Uranus in sag 1st house. The lord of 7th is my venus in virgo which sextiles Saturn and square Uranus and squares chiron 7th house. So based on that, I don't know how to read further what that means for the marriage or how many partners. I mean I know the mercury in libra 11th house is a good thing as well as it's mutual reception to venus. But how to I translate that.

Oh and the only poor aspect I can see is mercury square Neptune 7 degrees wide.

Oh, dear. Ok, Abby? It's fine if you want to study modern planets, their so called rulerships, and all that. But luv, this is the traditional forum. Did you read this, posted at the top of this board? I wrote it...

"Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renassiance eras. Specifically it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) and exludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) non-Ptolemaic aspects, as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretetation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)"

Just from what you did post...You have Mercury in the 11th in Libra, and Venus in the 11th in Virgo. Gemini is at least part of your 7th, and all I can think, without looking at the chart, is that you have some pretty big houses and some very intercepted signs, yes? Venus rules the cusp of the 7th? And is in fall in Virgo, in the 11th? So you are a Scorpio rising, is that true?

Mercury in Libra and Venus in Virgo isn't mutual reception, per se, because reception requires an aspect. What you have going on there is generosity...and without a chart I really can't help you more.

Abby83
01-02-2015, 07:00 AM
Abby

drop chiron or Tsmall will come out with a loaned battle-axe from me at you. Libras are not kind gentle peace lovng signs.. i can attest with it with my libra merc. Do i look like peace loving person when it comes to communication to you? uh huh...
She will recreate the Battle of Actium. I know her. lol

and she will warcry "This is Hellenistic Astrology!"

if you bring chiron to me, you will get Kuzka's mother (google it). we are not nice towards chiron

just warning you
T

Aha yes, indeed you and I are blunt with our words. I was just thinking that today. Makes sense because libra is a masculine sign isn't it? And yeah, I definitely was a peace loving child growing up but life has turned me into a nasty pasty.

Abby83
01-02-2015, 07:38 AM
Oh, dear. Ok, Abby? It's fine if you want to study modern planets, their so called rulerships, and all that. But luv, this is the traditional forum. Did you read this, posted at the top of this board? I wrote it...

"Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renassiance eras. Specifically it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) and exludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) non-Ptolemaic aspects, as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretetation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)"

Just from what you did post...You have Mercury in the 11th in Libra, and Venus in the 11th in Virgo. Gemini is at least part of your 7th, and all I can think, without looking at the chart, is that you have some pretty big houses and some very intercepted signs, yes? Venus rules the cusp of the 7th? And is in fall in Virgo, in the 11th? So you are a Scorpio rising, is that true?

Mercury in Libra and Venus in Virgo isn't mutual reception, per se, because reception requires an aspect. What you have going on there is generosity...and without a chart I really can't help you more.

Yes, all of that is correct, and, part of marriage is sextile asc. Asc is 23 degrees scorpio.

As for venus, it semisextiles mercury. Does that count?

Unfortunately I don't think I understand what intercepted sign means. I mean I searched it on the net. It says that a whole sign is enclosed in a house and does not appear at the beginning of a house.

Do you want me to post you my chart?

tikana
01-02-2015, 09:29 AM
Abby

only major aspects count.

T

Abby83
01-03-2015, 09:59 AM
So how do aspects to mercury (almuten of marriage) show potential partners, marriages. So far all Ive seen is Tsmall say they indicate generosity within a relationship.

JUPITERASC
01-03-2015, 10:53 AM
So how do aspects to mercury (almuten of marriage) show potential partners, marriages.
So far all Ive seen is Tsmall say they indicate generosity within a relationship.


that's not exactly 'all' Tsmall said though
Tsmall said much more than that :smile:

i.e.
aspects to Mercury do not necessarily show potential partners, marriages UNLESS Mercury is the almuten of marriage


Oh, dear. Ok, Abby? It's fine if you want to study modern planets, their so called rulerships, and all that. But luv, this is the traditional forum. Did you read this, posted at the top of this board? I wrote it...

"Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renassiance eras. Specifically it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) and exludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) non-Ptolemaic aspects, as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretetation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)"

Just from what you did post...You have Mercury in the 11th in Libra, and Venus in the 11th in Virgo. Gemini is at least part of your 7th, and all I can think, without looking at the chart, is that you have some pretty big houses and some very intercepted signs, yes? Venus rules the cusp of the 7th? And is in fall in Virgo, in the 11th? So you are a Scorpio rising, is that true?

Mercury in Libra and Venus in Virgo isn't mutual reception, per se, because reception requires an aspect. What you have going on there is generosity

...and without a chart I really can't help you more.


so Tsmall has said Mercury in Libra and Venus in Virgo isn't mutual reception per se because reception requires an aspect
so
this particular examples shows 'generosity'
but not reception

Abby83
01-03-2015, 11:28 AM
that's not exactly 'all' Tsmall said though
Tsmall said much more than that :smile:

i.e.
aspects to Mercury do not necessarily show potential partners, marriages UNLESS Mercury is the almuten of marriage

so Tsmall has said Mercury in Libra and Venus in Virgo isn't mutual reception per se because reception requires an aspect
so
this particular examples shows 'generosity'
but not reception

Yes that's pretty much what I have said. Mercury IS THE ALMUTEN OF MARRIAGE. I don't know why you're bringing up the mutual reception part. That has already been cleared up by Tikana. I don't think you understand what im asking.

Forget about it. Obviously Im not supposed to know otherwise the information would come to me.

JUPITERASC
01-03-2015, 12:02 PM
Yes that's pretty much what I have said. Mercury IS THE ALMUTEN OF MARRIAGE.
I don't know why you're bringing up the mutual reception part.
I highlighted mutual reception because you said


So how do aspects to mercury (almuten of marriage) show potential partners, marriages. So far all Ive seen is Tsmall say they indicate generosity within a relationship.

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=716&view=next
'generosity' is when planets are not in aspect
and so cannot be in mutual reception
i.e.
Mercury in Libra and Venus in Virgo are not in aspect

That has already been cleared up by Tikana.

Forget about it.
Obviously Im not supposed to know otherwise the information would come to me.

If you would read and study the entire thread from the beginning
and apply the principles :smile:
then all the information you require is there
to be fair Tsmall did say that no further comment can be made unless there is a natal chart to refer to


Mercury in Libra and Venus in Virgo isn't mutual reception, per se, because reception requires an aspect.

What you have going on there is generosity...

and without a chart I really can't help you more.

Abby83
01-03-2015, 12:50 PM
Oh dear, it's not sinking in don't worry. I said venus semisextiles mercury which is a mutual reception but Tikana then said it wasn't a major aspect and doesn't count. I have read the whole thread.

tsmall
01-03-2015, 02:01 PM
So how do aspects to mercury (almuten of marriage) show potential partners, marriages. So far all Ive seen is Tsmall say they indicate generosity within a relationship.

Abby, I may have time to look further at this over the weekend, but first I have to ask how, and why, you calculated Mercury to be the Almuten of Marriage? What formula did you use for the Lot of Marriage? Mercury is in aversion to every planet in your chart, and cannot see the 7th house, or the ASC. If I were you, I'd be paying more attention to Venus for indications of marriage in your chart.

Abby83
01-04-2015, 12:37 AM
Abby, I may have time to look further at this over the weekend, but first I have to ask how, and why, you calculated Mercury to be the Almuten of Marriage? What formula did you use for the Lot of Marriage? Mercury is in aversion to every planet in your chart, and cannot see the 7th house, or the ASC. If I were you, I'd be paying more attention to Venus for indications of marriage in your chart.

Seriously, if you don't have time it's ok. I don't expect you to go out of your way. Especially because im posting on someone else's thread.

I used the formula discussed in this thread. Just off top of my head calculated triplicity, term, face of planet, detriment fall etc -
1. 7th house cusp rules venus 5,3. Moon 4,3.

2. Lord of 7th house - venus in virgo. 3, -4. Moon 3. Mercury 5, 4, 1.

3. No planets in 7th house.

4. Moon - Jupiter 5,3. Sun 3. Saturn 1. Mercury -5.

5. Venus - Venus 3, -4. Moon 3. Mercury 5, 4, 1.

6. Part of Marriage - Satrurn 5. Mars 4. Venus 3. Moon 3, -5.

Total

Venus 9
Moon 11
Mercury 15

Mercury is therefore Almuten of Marriage.

Oh and I used the Arabic parts calculator to find Part of Marriage for woman which is 24 degrees Capricorn.

tsmall
01-04-2015, 12:51 AM
Seriously, if you don't have time it's ok. I don't expect you to go out of your way. Especially because im posting on someone else's thread.

I used the formula discussed in this thread. Just off top of my head calculated triplicity, term, face of planet, detriment fall etc - 7th house cusp ruler, lord of 7th house,
1. 7th house cusp rules venus 5,3. Moon4,3.

2. Lord of 7th house - venus in virgo. 3, -4. Moon 3. Mercury 5, 4, 1.

Well, the reason I asked is because it seems Bonatti was using Umar's calculations for the lots, and I don't have access to those off hand. I have Hellenistic software, and I get your lot of marriage either at 25 Cap 17 (according to Paulus) or 16 Leo 38 (according to Valens.) Either way, if you chose to use Mercury as the Almuten of Marriage you aren't going to get there. As I pointed out, Mercury in in a sign averse to all the other planets in your chart, is averse to the ASC and to the house you are asking about...aka, the 7th. I went back and read the part in Bonatti...and it seems, as usual, unclear if he was really saying we only look at the Almuten of marriage as the planet with the most dignity over the list Omni gave, or if we look to the planet that 1) has the most dignity over the 7th, and 2) can actually see into (as in regard, as in Ptolemaic aspect) the house in question. All of which brings us back to Venus in your chart.

Next then, according to Bonatti (and Masha'Allah, and Sahl, and Dorotheus) would be to look at the triplicity rulers of the sign in which Venus is posited. All that said, keep in mind that you know marriage will happen, since...aren't you married?

Abby83
01-04-2015, 03:25 AM
Ok so yes that is correct re part of marriage in cap. So venus is the focus then, in detriment in virgo. So I take it as a marriage but with challenges, which is what I have.

I am married, and confused about this marriage. Omnisphericus also mentioned that sun in oriental placement in cardinal sign means a younger lover at an older age, and many lovers.

tsmall
01-04-2015, 03:44 AM
I am married, and confused about this marriage.

Been there, done that, wrote the book about it. PM me if you'd like more help.

tikana
01-09-2015, 05:10 AM
can someone please explain this?

"how many planet that have dignity in the signs the sun is in, doe belong the sun, the sun applying to them, they not to them, so many husbands the woman shall have"
CA Vol III

example please

thnx

Hsn1983
09-05-2016, 10:39 PM
Hi everyone
When looking at aspects to the sun in a woman chart do you look at aspect by orbs or whole sign house ?

JUPITERASC
09-05-2016, 10:44 PM
Hi everyone
When looking at aspects to the sun in a woman chart do you look at aspect by orbs or whole sign house ?


Both :smile:
i.e. 3 degree orb for aspect by orbs
whole sign houses for aspect by sign

WorldSpice
01-05-2017, 09:29 AM
I wonder if anyone would be into helping me figure mine?

sp1ca
03-16-2017, 03:34 PM
Number of planets between Mars and MC in female chart shows number of husbands.

I have 5 :andy:

are we using more than one ruler because of the decans??

I'm little bit confused :pouty:

My placements and rulers:

7th house -> 26Gem07 (Mercury)
Mercury-> 29Vir32 (Mercury)

Venus in my 7th, (Venus)
Venus in 21Cancer46 (Moon)

Moon-> 20Aries31 (Mars)
Venus-> 21Cancer46 (Moon)

Part of Marriage-> 0Gem17 (Mercury)
Mercury-> 29Vir32 (Mercury)


:confused::confused::confused:

JUPITERASC
03-16-2017, 10:28 PM
I have 5 :andy:

are we using more than one ruler because of the decans??

I'm little bit confused :pouty:

My placements and rulers:

7th house -> 26Gem07 (Mercury)
Mercury-> 29Vir32 (Mercury)

Venus in my 7th, (Venus)
Venus in 21Cancer46 (Moon)

Moon-> 20Aries31 (Mars)
Venus-> 21Cancer46 (Moon)

Part of Marriage-> 0Gem17 (Mercury)
Mercury-> 29Vir32 (Mercury)


:confused::confused::confused:


Useful if there were a chart to view :smile:

sp1ca
03-17-2017, 10:09 AM
here is my chart

I think my Mercury gets the most points :happy:

rafaella
03-27-2017, 11:51 PM
can someone please explain this?

"how many planet that have dignity in the signs the sun is in, doe belong the sun, the sun applying to them, they not to them, so many husbands the woman shall have"
CA Vol III

example please

thnx

Hey Tik,

I think I got it.

My Sun is in 13 degree Capricorn, obviously Saturn and Mars are the two planets that have major dignity in Capricorn ( Saturn by domicile and Mars by exaltation). There are other planets as well that have dignity in Cap, but they are more minor (Venus by triplicity and Jupiter by term). And actually both have no aspects with sun in my chart so no need to pay attention to them.

"Do belong the Sun" - I assume he means behold? in That case any signs that would aspect Capricorn and whether I have either Mars or Saturn
aspecting Sun. I do, both Mars and Saturn aspect Sun. Mars in Capricorn, Saturn in Virgo.

Sun is at 13.14 Cap, Saturn as 13.50 Virgo RX, Mars at 17 Cap.

Sun is applying to both - conjunction to Mars and trine to Saturn. Does that mean 2 husbands? But Saturn is also applying to Sun due to rx, then that means 1 husband?

So Mars would describe the husband? Lets see... still unmarried so we will find out :)

Reeverie
05-04-2019, 07:12 PM
These significators of no marriage don't work, if we only count applying aspects. Separating one should be also considered.

JUPITERASC
05-10-2019, 10:19 AM
These significators of no marriage don't work, if we only count applying aspects.
Separating one should be also considered.
You OMITTED most of the technique presented

by OP OMNISPHERICUS :smile:
i.e.

04-26-2012, 04:06 AM
https://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/image.php?u=28321&dateline=1358683895 (https://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/member.php?u=28321) Omnisphericus (https://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/member.php?u=28321) https://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/images/futura/statusicon/user_offline.gif
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 277


Delineating Marriage (Medieval Method)
This is very intriguing subject isn't it? :)

Well, I must mention in the very beginning in explaining the methods here that they are of medieval astrology type (Bonatti, Abu Ali, Al Khayat and etc.).
To say that the method is 'Traiditional' is really using very wide range of time span in which different techniques for delineating marriage were used.
For example, the Hellenistic Astrologer's (Valens, Dorotheus and etc.) have used methods on their own, methods which I'll probably (not even later) not explain on this thread, but we can open another thread for that matter.
As this section of Traditional Astrology is quite new and in its beginnings, we now trow out the techniques here and there and title them as "Traditional". I hope that in the future we can make sub sections of traditional astrology, such as: "Medieval Astrology", "Hellenistic Astrology", Renaissance Astrology" and etc..

There are certain rules in Medieval Astrology compiled which can give quite good and workable methods for delineating marriage. The rules one can learn for a short period of time, but the practice is what is needed in order these rules to become second nature of the astrologer's intuitive tool in delineating such things as Marriage in the chart. This is what I would like to do on this thread: to practice as much charts as I/we will have the time to do it.


The Technique

The Compound Almuten is what is very practical thing in almost all methods used in medieval delineation. It seems that Bonatti and other medievals were very fond on Compound Almutens.
I will first give delineation for male charts, and in some later post will explain the delineation for female charts.

Finding the Compound Almuten for Marriage:

Find the Rulers of all 5 dignities for these places:

1. 7th house cusp

2. Lord of the 7th house

3. Planets in 7th house (if any)

4. Moon

5. Venus

6. Part of Marriage (According to Hermes) (ASC + VE - SA) for Men.

The Planet which gets most points over these places is Almuten of Marriage.
But consider also if there are impediments to these places.
If there is affliction to 7th house (by some Malefic's square or opposition), to the Moon (aspect, combust, cadent, retrograde and etc.)

See if one of the individiaul Almutens over these places is joined to the Lord of the Ascendant or its Almuten or the Lord of the 7th or its Almuten.
If they are in trine or sextile, and if especially in reception, then the native will rejoice in living beautiful life with his wife according to his desire.

But if the aspects were without reception, or if the aspects were square or opposition, then the significations will be judged lower.

Bonatti:
Quote:
But if the lord of the Ascendant were joined to the lord of the 7''', so that the former were lighter than the latter, it signifies that the native will want to copulate with women. If indeed the 7'h sign were Cancer or Scorpio or
Pisces or there were a conjunction of the lord of the 7
th or its Almuten with the lord of the first or its Almuten in these (signs) or from these (signs) or with one of them, it signifies that the native will have many wives or a great number of other women. If however you find the contrary, you are able to judge otherwise."

Example:
http://i47.tinypic.com/35kl8as.png

This is the chart of Akihito, Emperor of Japan

His chart is given on astrodatabank site as a chart of a man with successful marriage.

First we make Compound Almuten for these places:

1. 7th House Cusp at 28 Gemini:
Mercury 5, 3,
Saturn 3, 2
Jupiter 3
Sun 1

2. Ruler of 7th, Mercury in 16 Sag
Jupiter 5, 3
Sun 3
Saturn 3
Venus 2
Moon 1

3. Planets in 7th - there are no planets here

4. Moon 20 Pisces
Jupiter 5
Venus 4, 3
Mars, 3, 2, 1
Moon 3

5. Venus 15 Aquarius
Saturn 5, 3
Mercury, 3, 1
Jupiter 3, 2

6 Part of Marriage at 29 Sag
Jupiter 5, 3
Sun 3
Saturn 3, 1
Mars 2

Total:
Mercury 12
Saturn 20
Jupiter 29

No need to calculate further, Jupiter is Almuten of Marriage.
Look how strong is that Jupiter up there on MC.
He is receiving the Sun by sextile and the Part of Marriage on the Ascendant.

7th house cusp not impeded.
Its lord - Mercury, cadent (but in the first sign), not afflicted by Malefic's square or opposition, not by combustion.
Moon - not afflicted.
Venus - Saturn receives here in Aquarius.
Part of Marriage not afflicted, but indeed highlightened by ASC and Sun.

Lord (and also Almuten) of the 1st, and the Lord (and also Almuten) of the 7th are in Sextile. Jupiter receives Mercury.

Quite fortunate chart for marriage.
https://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/images/futura/buttons/quote.gif (https://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=383907)

petosiris
05-10-2019, 03:58 PM
Hey Tik,

I think I got it.

My Sun is in 13 degree Capricorn, obviously Saturn and Mars are the two planets that have major dignity in Capricorn ( Saturn by domicile and Mars by exaltation). There are other planets as well that have dignity in Cap, but they are more minor (Venus by triplicity and Jupiter by term). And actually both have no aspects with sun in my chart so no need to pay attention to them.

"Do belong the Sun" - I assume he means behold? in That case any signs that would aspect Capricorn and whether I have either Mars or Saturn
aspecting Sun. I do, both Mars and Saturn aspect Sun. Mars in Capricorn, Saturn in Virgo.

Sun is at 13.14 Cap, Saturn as 13.50 Virgo RX, Mars at 17 Cap.

Sun is applying to both - conjunction to Mars and trine to Saturn. Does that mean 2 husbands? But Saturn is also applying to Sun due to rx, then that means 1 husband?

So Mars would describe the husband? Lets see... still unmarried so we will find out :)

Not according to the original method from Ptolemy, since Mars is under the rays, even though Saturn does indicate a husband since it is morning rising (even though it is retrograde) and applying to the Sun. Saturn alone makes sedate, useful and industrious husband.

Chrysalis
05-11-2019, 09:22 AM
First we make Compound Almuten for these places:

1. 7th House Cusp at 28 Gemini:
Mercury 5, 3,
Saturn 3, 2
Jupiter 3
Sun 1

2. Ruler of 7th, Mercury in 16 Sag
Jupiter 5, 3
Sun 3
Saturn 3
Venus 2
Moon 1

3. Planets in 7th - there are no planets here

4. Moon 20 Pisces
Jupiter 5
Venus 4, 3
Mars, 3, 2, 1
Moon 3

5. Venus 15 Aquarius
Saturn 5, 3
Mercury, 3, 1
Jupiter 3, 2

6 Part of Marriage at 29 Sag
Jupiter 5, 3
Sun 3
Saturn 3, 1
Mars 2

Total:
Mercury 12
Saturn 20
Jupiter 29



I don't understand the compound Almuten, how are these numbers calculated ?

And ive read though the whole thread, i just don't understand this part.

SunConjunctUranus
05-11-2019, 10:09 AM
I don't understand the compound Almuten, how are these numbers calculated ?

And ive read though the whole thread, i just don't understand this part.

Almuten - the most dignity planet in nativitas. Counting ithe dignity of the planet through the angles, bound ruler, decans, and the sign of the fortune.

Determining whether the nativitas is a female or a male. In case for female, look at the Sun and for male, look at the Moon and then, look if any planets following the Sun (for female) or the Moon (for male). The nativitas will marry early if the luminary happen to be in the eastern quadrant and in reverse. That is what Ptolemy said and most Medieval following Ptolemy.

Not sure if 12/12 capable doing this.

Chrysalis
05-11-2019, 10:55 AM
Thanks, but it's more to do with the numbers, i don't understand how they are calculated.

Also 7th cusp is 28 gemini, ruler mercury, but then whats saturn/jupiter/sun got to do with it ? And what are these numbers at the side ?



"First we make Compound Almuten for these places:

1. 7th House Cusp at 28 Gemini:
Mercury 5, 3,
Saturn 3, 2
Jupiter 3
Sun 1"

petosiris
05-11-2019, 11:14 AM
Thanks, but it's more to do with the numbers, i don't understand how they are calculated.

Also 7th cusp is 28 gemini, ruler mercury, but then whats saturn/jupiter/sun got to do with it ? And what are these numbers at the side ?



"First we make Compound Almuten for these places:

1. 7th House Cusp at 28 Gemini:
Mercury 5, 3,
Saturn 3, 2
Jupiter 3
Sun 1"

5 because Mercury has domicile and 3 because it has triangle (the Sat-Mer-Jup triangle)
Saturn has triangle 3 and term 2
Jupiter has triangle 3
Sun has decan 1

I don't agree with the above, but that is the medieval methodology.

SunConjunctUranus
05-11-2019, 11:17 AM
OP counted the dignity of the 7th house.

They give 5 points for Mercury because the dsc in the sign of Gemini.

They give 3 points for Saturn because the dsc in Saturn's bound.

They give 1 point for Sun because the dsc in Sun's decans.

It's too complicated for noob but just looking at the total calculation. They give Jupiter as the lord Almuten of Marriage. That is the logic or procedure for calculating the Almuten.

SunConjunctUranus
05-11-2019, 11:26 AM
I don't agree with the above, but that is the medieval methodology.

Petosiris,

Btw are you aware the OP using Dorotheus' bound?

Chrysalis
05-11-2019, 02:16 PM
OP counted the dignity of the 7th house.

They give 5 points for Mercury because the dsc in the sign of Gemini.

They give 3 points for Saturn because the dsc in Saturn's bound.

They give 1 point for Sun because the dsc in Sun's decans.

It's too complicated for noob but just looking at the total calculation. They give Jupiter as the lord Almuten of Marriage. That is the logic or procedure for calculating the Almuten.

Its not too complicated for noob. I just needed it explaining as to what these numbers were representing with regards to the almuten calculation, OP never mentioned this.

You've managed to explain it here quite clearly, so Thankyou.