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Moog
04-14-2012, 09:27 PM
What ways do you see a debilitated Saturn manifesting?

I had the idea that since Saturn is conservative, that a lack of respect for tradition, or inability to adhere to traditional values could be a part of a weak Saturn. What thinks ye?

retinoid
04-17-2012, 04:15 AM
I look at debilitated planets as not doing their job in our life very well. So a Mars in Libra is debilitated, which means the person may have a hard time making decisions or following through or what not. A debilitated Saturn may give you obstacles without a whole lot of meaning (like a teacher who gives you pointless homework) or someone who doesn't stand their ground or doesn't have an air of authority.

may28gemini
07-03-2012, 07:02 AM
I don't think debilitated planets do less of a job. If anything, I think they overwork you. Saturn has been long viewed as the Great Malefic. Well, if Saturn truly is as scary as he seems, why is it he's so necessary and oh so important in life? Regardless if Saturn is in Aries, Cancer, or Leo, Saturn will crack the whip on you. Some signs he'll crack harder, some signs he'll break your back. Some signs he'll be a bit more reasonable. But guarantee, he'll never slack off his job to teach you lessons that you need to learn, and he won't let you slack off either. If you learn the lessons well, Saturn rewards far greater and longer than Jupiter ever would, simply because you've actually earned it.

It may sound like it's easy for me to say since I have exalted Saturn, but the truth is, debilitated planets make you go on overdrive... or you throw in the towel. I think it works much like oppositions and squares- the effects are sink or swim. The point is, you still have the power to choose.

dr. farr
07-03-2012, 08:15 AM
I agree with the above posts, with this addition: I think debilitation influences a planet to manifest its disruptive, "unbalanced", "sickly" or "malefic" qualities; for me a dignified and strong Saturn is probably the most BENEFIC of all planets*; so a debilitated Saturn, in my outlook, would be a very unfortunate MALEFIC!


(*there are several books, mostly from Vedic astrology, dealing with the BENEFIC qualities and influences of Saturn: see, for example, these "pro-Saturn" books @ astroamerica.com)

Moog
07-03-2012, 08:41 AM
My own Saturn is complicated by Rahu, I guess that's more likely the source of my inability to conform

may28gemini
07-03-2012, 08:48 AM
My knowledge of Vedic astrology is in the toddler stage and I cannot offer anymore insight. For some reason, Saturn conjunct Rahu sounds like it's a scary combo. Anything about Saturn touching the moon or any of her nodes is really bone chilling scary. I know, I have Saturn opposition moon. ICK!

Moog
07-03-2012, 12:21 PM
My knowledge of Vedic astrology is in the toddler stage and I cannot offer anymore insight. For some reason, Saturn conjunct Rahu sounds like it's a scary combo. Anything about Saturn touching the moon or any of her nodes is really bone chilling scary. I know, I have Saturn opposition moon. ICK!

You're not wrong. I have the Moon, Saturn and Rahu mixing it up in the same space. It's a thrill ride :lol:

The_Saturnian
07-03-2012, 01:58 PM
Saturn in the planet of judgement and discipline. I agree with May28Gemini. Even though a lot of people tend to fear Saturn, especially the infamous Saturn Rx (Sade-sati for those who follow the Vedic system), this heavenly giant can be considered a teacher simply because at the end of one's Saturn Rx we are improved and have learnt a considerable amount of lessons. As strange as it may seem, this is primarily why I love Saturn so much.


If you know of a subject suffering from a debilitating Saturn, nataly or otherwise, they should wear a ring embedded with a black stone on the middle finger of the right hand according to Vedic teachings. The link below leads to a webpage which addresses various remedies for a debilitated Saturn.



http://www.ganeshaspeaks.com/blog_The_effects_of_SATURN__remedies_to_nullify (http://www.ganeshaspeaks.com/blog_The_effects_of_SATURN__remedies_to_nullify_th em_2662.jsp)

IleneK
07-03-2012, 02:17 PM
<...> For some reason, Saturn conjunct Rahu sounds like it's a scary combo. Anything about Saturn touching the moon or any of her nodes is really bone chilling scary. I know, I have Saturn opposition moon. ICK!

I have debilitated Saturn conjunct the Moon and squaring the Nodes. I would describe it more as wearying, never good enough. By making us over-cautious, we can definitely be more scared, especially in our younger years.

may28gemini
07-03-2012, 06:02 PM
I have debilitated Saturn conjunct the Moon and squaring the Nodes. I would describe it more as wearying, never good enough. By making us over-cautious, we can definitely be more scared, especially in our younger years.

Where ever Saturn is in our chart is the source of our worst fears. Because your Saturn is touching the moon and her nodes, it makes things extra scary.

I don't really know much about debilitated Saturn in Western astrology, but I have met a few with Cancer and Leo Saturn and they described their Saturn's return was really traumatic... lost of family and losing complete power/control over their lives (at least for awhile). It's only after their 1st Saturn's return that they learn (some don't) about departures and autonomy (amongst other Saturnian themes). It's good to learn to what you need to do and the only way that can be achieved is to hit the lowest of the low to decide if you want to bounce back.

My best friend has Leo Saturn in 7th house- she's 5 years older than me, she's very concerned about controlling others. It's very odd because she's also a Gemini sun and we've always been very close. She use to get royally upset when I told her she has absolutely NO control over others and she needs to understand that. We had an explosive argument where it lead to me imposing a silence which lasted 3 years (I never intended it to be that long). I had contacted her when I felt like I really missed her and by then she was finishing up her 1st Saturn's return and I was happy to see her, very shocked that she loosen up on controlling others. It turned out she went through a period of alcoholism and her life got derailed during the 3 years we weren't in touch. She bounced back from the dead, quit drinking cold turkey, realized that teaching is her calling (I was telling her that for years), enrolled to get her teaching credentials, and by the end of her Saturn's return, she became a high school teacher. Now she gets to use her Leo Saturn to boss her students around :happy:

may28gemini
07-03-2012, 06:21 PM
And by the way, I have exalted Libra Saturn in stationary direct but from what I understand, it sorta counts as retrograde, just not has bad.

Going back on what TheSaturnian said about people fearing Saturn retrograde- talk about fears becoming reality!

I have a "friend" I've been talking with for awhile with exalted Libra Saturn in true retrograde fashion. We're both going through our 1st Saturn's return together. Except with mine, it's been mostly lonely and frustrating and me struggling to anchor myself in a more solid state of existence (Saturn conjunct Jupiter in 1st house). For him (Saturn conjunct Pluto in 9th house), his mother died all of a sudden and he had to fly out to bury her when he had not been in contact with her for over 5 years. He had issues with her growing up... there was sexual abuse that he endured from her friends and she was not mentally with it to protect him. Instead, he grew up protecting her and busting her out of jail and continued to endured punishment from her. He views her death as her way of having the last word, of one upping him and saying "haha you still have to take care of me until the very end!" He even resolved all the money she owed- that's how duty bound he is even though he swore he "hates" her. Her sudden death happened last November when transiting Saturn conjunct his natal Saturn. YIKES

For me, when transiting Saturn conjunct my natal Saturn, I had to give up a love interest by realizing that it would never materialize. Something clicked in my head where I learned to not hold my breath for those who couldn't do the same for me.

Talk about big differences in experiences by comparing exalted Saturn that's in retrograde and exalted Saturn in stationary direct. I can only imagine a cake walk reserved for exalted Saturn direct! But then again, I've never met such a person and I would like to talk to them about it.

dr. farr
07-04-2012, 03:18 AM
A few of the books looking into the wider implications and potentials of Saturn, which I referred to above as available for astroamerica.com, are "Saturn: Friend and Guide",
"Secrets of Saturn" (VERY insightful!), "The Greatness of Saturn", "Saturn the King-maker"...these works will repay close consideration, in developing a wider and, I think, more "realistic" outlook regarding this planet

(PS: Saturn is a good friend of mine, being posited in my natal first house, in Virgo)

The_Saturnian
07-04-2012, 03:22 AM
And by the way, I have exalted Libra Saturn in stationary direct but from what I understand, it sorta counts as retrograde, just not has bad.

Going back on what TheSaturnian said about people fearing Saturn retrograde- talk about fears becoming reality!

I have a "friend" I've been talking with for awhile with exalted Libra Saturn in true retrograde fashion. We're both going through our 1st Saturn's return together. Except with mine, it's been mostly lonely and frustrating and me struggling to anchor myself in a more solid state of existence (Saturn conjunct Jupiter in 1st house). For him (Saturn conjunct Pluto in 9th house), his mother died all of a sudden and he had to fly out to bury her when he had not been in contact with her for over 5 years. He had issues with her growing up... there was sexual abuse that he endured from her friends and she was not mentally with it to protect him. Instead, he grew up protecting her and busting her out of jail and continued to endured punishment from her. He views her death as her way of having the last word, of one upping him and saying "haha you still have to take care of me until the very end!" He even resolved all the money she owed- that's how duty bound he is even though he swore he "hates" her. Her sudden death happened last November when transiting Saturn conjunct his natal Saturn. YIKES

For me, when transiting Saturn conjunct my natal Saturn, I had to give up a love interest by realizing that it would never materialize. Something clicked in my head where I learned to not hold my breath for those who couldn't do the same for me.

Talk about big differences in experiences by comparing exalted Saturn that's in retrograde and exalted Saturn in stationary direct. I can only imagine a cake walk reserved for exalted Saturn direct! But then again, I've never met such a person and I would like to talk to them about it.

Wow! Interesting stories from you. This is exactly what I was part and partially referring to in my previous post in this thread. Saturn can be really instill a great degree of fear, espcially if in a hard aspect in the native's natal chart. However, I am glad that both of your friends have got their lives back on track :) .

A natal Saturn in Libra promotes spiritual alleviation in a particular lifetime, so I was wondering, which house do you have this in your natal chart?

may28gemini
07-04-2012, 05:52 AM
HAHAHA I did see another natal Libra Saturn somewhere here but I'm bad with names and I didn't message her. I should have, cuz I would really like to ask her for her Saturn's return stories.

For a long time, I had no idea about my chart, I had it read by a few astrologers a few years ago and apparently they were all impressed that my exalted Saturn "likes" me so much. It was really because of Saturn that some of them taught me the ins and outs of astrology.

LOL Sorry! To answer your question, my Saturn is in 1st house- 3 degree Libra.
I'm really Libra-ed out! 1st Saturn conjunct Jupiter with Pluto hanging out in the corner. My Asc hugs Saturn and reaches out for Jupiter. I love Saturn and Saturn loves me- trines Sun, trines Mars, squares Mercury, sextile Uranus, opposes Moon. Even though I'm a Pisces moon, I really hate emotions, I despise sensitivity and I promote "elevation" through harshness reality. The icky part for me is I'm cursed to encounter NOTHING but emotional people in my lifetime (so far) and it's more natural for me to side with Saturn and shut the moon down.

A side note, I quickly realized that there's more people who have not gone through their 1st Saturn's return. That explains why some people think I'm so harsh. People who have completed their 1st Saturn's return would actually understand my intent and purpose far better.

Caro
07-04-2012, 09:07 AM
May28 - just seems a shame the way you see your moon. A moon in pisces is a great gift. but in this modern world often not viewed in this way.

The_Saturnian
07-05-2012, 12:36 PM
HAHAHA I did see another natal Libra Saturn somewhere here but I'm bad with names and I didn't message her. I should have, cuz I would really like to ask her for her Saturn's return stories.

For a long time, I had no idea about my chart, I had it read by a few astrologers a few years ago and apparently they were all impressed that my exalted Saturn "likes" me so much. It was really because of Saturn that some of them taught me the ins and outs of astrology.

LOL Sorry! To answer your question, my Saturn is in 1st house- 3 degree Libra.
I'm really Libra-ed out! 1st Saturn conjunct Jupiter with Pluto hanging out in the corner. My Asc hugs Saturn and reaches out for Jupiter. I love Saturn and Saturn loves me- trines Sun, trines Mars, squares Mercury, sextile Uranus, opposes Moon. Even though I'm a Pisces moon, I really hate emotions, I despise sensitivity and I promote "elevation" through harshness reality. The icky part for me is I'm cursed to encounter NOTHING but emotional people in my lifetime (so far) and it's more natural for me to side with Saturn and shut the moon down.

A side note, I quickly realized that there's more people who have not gone through their 1st Saturn's return. That explains why some people think I'm so harsh. People who have completed their 1st Saturn's return would actually understand my intent and purpose far better.


So you are quite spitiual as I had assumed you were. Saturn conjuct Jupiter I understand is quite a good combination (correct me anybody if I'm wrong!) A perfect blend of spiritual enhancement supplemented by an abundance of knowledege in this lifetime.

This combination supports the fact that you can be like a guide or sort of an 'angel' to people by showing them the right door, even if you have to comtemplate the so called "harness reality". :innocent:

Nonetheless Saturn is prominent in your case, which is a good thing! LOL

may28gemini
07-05-2012, 07:18 PM
May28 - just seems a shame the way you see your moon. A moon in pisces is a great gift. but in this modern world often not viewed in this way.

Caro, I've heard that a lot. Make no mistake, because I'm in contention with the Moon in general, my natal moon positions are vast and difficult which are things that I try resolve on my own. I will add, I have Moon sextile Mars which means I go along with whatever my Mars does and my Mars trines Saturn. No matter what, my chart will always lead back to Saturn.

When I said I shut down the moon, I meant that I not only shut down my moon, but also everyone else's moon (remember I have Libra Saturn so it has to be equal) and my Saturn will give instructions as to how to proceed.

I don't like Pisces moon not because of its characteristics, I dislike having Pisces moon because of the effect: it attracts a lot of jerks who want to push me around. Since I have Pluto in 1st, I won't put up with at all and my Saturn can easily destroy them. Part of my Saturn's return is I learned greater patience for others but I will continue to voice my disagreements, whereas in the past I would just seek out to destroy everything in sight. No, I'm actually quite thankful that I do have Pisces moon because if I had been born a few hours later, I would have ended up with the horrid jerk Aries moon. It's because of my Pisces moon that I have the ability to fulfill my exalted Saturn.

may28gemini
07-05-2012, 07:54 PM
So you are quite spitiual as I had assumed you were. Saturn conjuct Jupiter I understand is quite a good combination (correct me anybody if I'm wrong!) A perfect blend of spiritual enhancement supplemented by an abundance of knowledege in this lifetime.

This combination supports the fact that you can be like a guide or sort of an 'angel' to people by showing them the right door, even if you have to comtemplate the so called "harness reality". :innocent:

Nonetheless Saturn is prominent in your case, which is a good thing! LOL

Sidenote
Ha! I knew I liked you. My 1st and longest relationship was with a Leo sun, Scorpio moon, Virgo rising with also exalted Libra Saturn! As odd as it is, I actually really like people with debilitated moons (Scorpio and Cap). I guess it's because my moon has gone through a lot LOL that I can understand those with hurt moons better. Also, I didn't realize that you hadn't started your 1st Saturn's return and yours is placed in Scorpio. I have a lot of ex-friends with that position and it's very tough. My Scorpio Saturn ex-friends are starting to feel it... some have some "breakdowns" already where they axed all their friends (including me). I consider myself a friend to them even though I don't consider them to be a friend to me. I will probably contact them later down the line to see what's up with them as they are not familiar with astrology. I'd like to hear your stories about what happens to you and how you go through your Saturn's return in a few years, as well.

Jupiter conjunct Saturn is often considered yucky and rightfully so as Saturn malifies Jupiter but Jupiter does not bonify Saturn. Since I have that in Libra (along with a lot of other people born in my year), I would propose a "depends" argument. Libra Jupiter is a pretty nice position in general and Libra Saturn is supposedly a marker of someone who's higher on the karmic plane. Libra Jupiter conj exalted Saturn is probably a lovely combo. Quirky Aqua Jupiter conj dignity Saturn could be pretty fun. But say someone with fallen Jupiter Capricon conj dignity Saturn... probably not a nice combo. Or egotistical Leo Jupiter conj detrimental Saturn- YOUCH! Well, it's certainly a topic that could be deeply explored in another thread.

And finally, I'm not sure if I can agree with you about the spirituality thing. I don't think I'm spiritual at all, nor do I seek it, nor ever meant to come off that way. I don't want to teach anyone anything. I've known for a long time that you can't save people from themselves and it's probably because I'm overly Saturnian that I do enjoy throwing what I call "the wall of reality" at everyone. I love it when I encounter someone with strong Saturnian traits, but I strangely feel more purposeful when I encounter people who definitely need Saturn to throw the book at them! If people take what I say in a positive light to learn, so be it. If they choose to fight me, I take greater pleasure in knowing that they're going to have a really rough time down the road.
No diggity about it, I don't say what I say to people to be a jerk, I say what I say because it has to be said, it comes from a place within me that I do care for others, if not on an authentic level, but on a practical level. There is a need for it. I despise people who take the "soft" approach and instead of putting their foot down, they stroke other people's moons (emotions) and suns (egos). That is arguable the worst possible solution to any troubles and I can say with confidence that should NEVER the answer. I want to strip everything down to bare bones, literally "air out" all the maggots and rot so we can see what is really at the heart of the matter. If anyone can do that, especially do that for others, it's not spiritual, it's out of material necessity to live in a more harmonious environment. Everyone has to do their part and not be afraid of causing upsets when there's bigger fishes to fry. Remember, when Saturn ruled, it was the Golden Age. Saturn should be greatly respected, never ignored, and quietly feared.

The_Saturnian
07-06-2012, 08:48 AM
Sidenote
Ha! I knew I liked you. My 1st and longest relationship was with a Leo sun, Scorpio moon, Virgo rising with also exalted Libra Saturn! As odd as it is, I actually really like people with debilitated moons (Scorpio and Cap). I guess it's because my moon has gone through a lot LOL that I can understand those with hurt moons better. Also, I didn't realize that you hadn't started your 1st Saturn's return and yours is placed in Scorpio. I have a lot of ex-friends with that position and it's very tough. My Scorpio Saturn ex-friends are starting to feel it... some have some "breakdowns" already where they axed all their friends (including me). I consider myself a friend to them even though I don't consider them to be a friend to me. I will probably contact them later down the line to see what's up with them as they are not familiar with astrology. I'd like to hear your stories about what happens to you and how you go through your Saturn's return in a few years, as well.

Jupiter conjunct Saturn is often considered yucky and rightfully so as Saturn malifies Jupiter but Jupiter does not bonify Saturn. Since I have that in Libra (along with a lot of other people born in my year), I would propose a "depends" argument. Libra Jupiter is a pretty nice position in general and Libra Saturn is supposedly a marker of someone who's higher on the karmic plane. Libra Jupiter conj exalted Saturn is probably a lovely combo. Quirky Aqua Jupiter conj dignity Saturn could be pretty fun. But say someone with fallen Jupiter Capricon conj dignity Saturn... probably not a nice combo. Or egotistical Leo Jupiter conj detrimental Saturn- YOUCH! Well, it's certainly a topic that could be deeply explored in another thread.

And finally, I'm not sure if I can agree with you about the spirituality thing. I don't think I'm spiritual at all, nor do I seek it, nor ever meant to come off that way. I don't want to teach anyone anything. I've known for a long time that you can't save people from themselves and it's probably because I'm overly Saturnian that I do enjoy throwing what I call "the wall of reality" at everyone. I love it when I encounter someone with strong Saturnian traits, but I strangely feel more purposeful when I encounter people who definitely need Saturn to throw the book at them! If people take what I say in a positive light to learn, so be it. If they choose to fight me, I take greater pleasure in knowing that they're going to have a really rough time down the road.
No diggity about it, I don't say what I say to people to be a jerk, I say what I say because it has to be said, it comes from a place within me that I do care for others, if not on an authentic level, but on a practical level. There is a need for it. I despise people who take the "soft" approach and instead of putting their foot down, they stroke other people's moons (emotions) and suns (egos). That is arguable the worst possible solution to any troubles and I can say with confidence that should NEVER the answer. I want to strip everything down to bare bones, literally "air out" all the maggots and rot so we can see what is really at the heart of the matter. If anyone can do that, especially do that for others, it's not spiritual, it's out of material necessity to live in a more harmonious environment. Everyone has to do their part and not be afraid of causing upsets when there's bigger fishes to fry. Remember, when Saturn ruled, it was the Golden Age. Saturn should be greatly respected, never ignored, and quietly feared.

I should be so lucky Lol. I have a platonic attraction for people who are spiritual and/or resemble Saturnian traits in their character. I started my Saturn return back in April 2010, which means that on 5th October later this year, when Saturn completes its transition into Scorpio I would have completed the first third of the my Saturn return.

I have had a fairly tough time since it began. I broke up with my ex-girlfriend in April 2010. Although we didnít have a long relationship, the breakup for me was excruciatingly painful. It was one of those ďThe world has come to an endĒ types of breakups. For most of the remainder of 2010, I was actually pretty depressed due to this breakup and felt like nothing was going to get better. In 2011, I handed in my notice to leave my previous employment and strangely enough, I actually didnít finish serving my one month notice simply because I fell ill pretty and am still suffering from the same condition one year on. (Both of these events materialising due to the commencement of my Saturn return).

At present Iíve actually become somewhat of a monastic person in search of spiritual enhancement, whilst refraining myself from the rest of the world and introspecting most of the time. So I guess that in October the real rollercoaster begins. L Regardless my worship towards my Lord and Master (Saturn himself) shall continue, in my hope to constrict if not nullify his negativity.

With regard to your point about Jupiter conjunct Saturn, I have yet another question for you Ė As an individual who happens to have this combination in their natal chart, which is more important for you: knowledge (Jupiter) or Karma (Saturn)?

Itís very interesting to note how you tend to tell/show people what they donít want to hear or see. In reference to your last paragraph in your previous post, would you say that Saturnians are either aggressive and/or vindictive?

may28gemini
07-06-2012, 04:09 PM
I should be so lucky Lol. I have a platonic attraction for people who are spiritual and/or resemble Saturnian traits in their character. I started my Saturn return back in April 2010, which means that on 5th October later this year, when Saturn completes its transition into Scorpio I would have completed the first third of the my Saturn return.

I have had a fairly tough time since it began. I broke up with my ex-girlfriend in April 2010. Although we didn’t have a long relationship, the breakup for me was excruciatingly painful. It was one of those “The world has come to an end” types of breakups. For most of the remainder of 2010, I was actually pretty depressed due to this breakup and felt like nothing was going to get better. In 2011, I handed in my notice to leave my previous employment and strangely enough, I actually didn’t finish serving my one month notice simply because I fell ill pretty and am still suffering from the same condition one year on. (Both of these events materialising due to the commencement of my Saturn return).

At present I’ve actually become somewhat of a monastic person in search of spiritual enhancement, whilst refraining myself from the rest of the world and introspecting most of the time. So I guess that in October the real rollercoaster begins. L Regardless my worship towards my Lord and Master (Saturn himself) shall continue, in my hope to constrict if not nullify his negativity.

With regard to your point about Jupiter conjunct Saturn, I have yet another question for you – As an individual who happens to have this combination in their natal chart, which is more important for you: knowledge (Jupiter) or Karma (Saturn)?

It’s very interesting to note how you tend to tell/show people what they don’t want to hear or see. In reference to your last paragraph in your previous post, would you say that Saturnians are either aggressive and/or vindictive?

The earliest I've heard of people "starting" their Saturn's return is 27. You're not even 27 yet. How can you start your Saturn's return when transiting Saturn isn't even in your sign yet?
I think you are confusing Saturn transiting your chart with Saturn's return: they are not the same thing. People who are conscious of Saturn may start to feel his effects in their mid-20s but Saturn's return is a time when transiting Saturn is in your natal Saturn's sign and will plow through your chart and make you rebuild your life- inside and out. A person experiences their first Saturn's return, roughly from The earliest I've heard of Saturn crossing their chart is 28 but the general is 29.5 yrs. The latest I've heard of is 32 yrs old. I have very early Saturn and it crossed my chart a few months after I turned 29. My lawyer friend's late Libra Saturn experienced a completely shutdown when Saturn crossed his chart 28 1/2 years old (last Nov).
I think you need to rethink your talk of Saturn's return. You won't feel Saturn's rings around you until he enters Scorpio. Trust me, I definitely felt something tightening around me when Saturn entered Libra and I wasn't even astrologically "aware" at that time. What you've experienced is just a slight wind of nice Libra Saturn, no need for you to rush because your Scorpio Saturn storm will hit you in due time.

Exalted Saturnians are probably not likely to be aggressive or vindictive... except, possibly, if their Saturn conjuncts Pluto which happens for people born mid 1983. The point of exalted Saturn is to learn how to treat others fairly regardless of how they are. I've been tested on that many times and there are days when I want to destroy everything simply because I think it's "stupid." Yet, I've learned to tell myself that it's not worth it and move on. That's a really hard lesson to grasp, with or without exalted natal Saturn. I just think that if you have exalted Saturn, it would be a bit easier to grasp the hard lessons and have a less yucky time integrating them into your life.

As for the other Saturnians, like Aries, Leo, yes they can be quite vicious. Why? Because they are in debilitated positions. Saturn hates fire and the arrogance that goes with them which means Aries, Leo, Sag. Fire Saturns tend to overstep and cause others to be victims. Although, I tend to think Sag Saturn people are quite decent and generally quite polite, and not as bad as bossy Aries and Leo. Saturn is vicious towards the water signs esp. Cancer and may cause the person to get victimized (or rather, feel victimized regularly).

When I was 26, one of my work partners, an accountant (she was a Taurus Scorpio Cancer), was in her 60s and she read my chart. I found out she had been a professional astrologer for over 30 years. She told me, "Don't worry about your Saturn's return, just stay strong and you'll be fine." When she told me that, I had no idea what the heck she was talking about and just shrugged it off. That was the only time she mentioned about me and Saturn's return and other than that, we talked about it in general terms. She did mention that during her 1st return, she divorced her first husband, separated from their daughter and towards the end met her 2nd husband. I hadn't thought about it but now that I'm nearing the end of my Saturn's return, quite possibly, I've met my future 2nd husband (the lawyer) LOL

The_Saturnian
07-06-2012, 05:39 PM
The earliest I've heard of people "starting" their Saturn's return is 27. You're not even 27 yet. How can you start your Saturn's return when transiting Saturn isn't even in your sign yet?
I think you are confusing Saturn transiting your chart with Saturn's return: they are not the same thing. People who are conscious of Saturn may start to feel his effects in their mid-20s but Saturn's return is a time when transiting Saturn is in your natal Saturn's sign and will plow through your chart and make you rebuild your life- inside and out. A person experiences their first Saturn's return, roughly from The earliest I've heard of Saturn crossing their chart is 28 but the general is 29.5 yrs. The latest I've heard of is 32 yrs old. I have very early Saturn and it crossed my chart a few months after I turned 29. My lawyer friend's late Libra Saturn experienced a completely shutdown when Saturn crossed his chart 28 1/2 years old (last Nov).
I think you need to rethink your talk of Saturn's return. You won't feel Saturn's rings around you until he enters Scorpio. Trust me, I definitely felt something tightening around me when Saturn entered Libra and I wasn't even astrologically "aware" at that time. What you've experienced is just a slight wind of nice Libra Saturn, no need for you to rush because your Scorpio Saturn storm will hit you in due time.

Exalted Saturnians are probably not likely to be aggressive or vindictive... except, possibly, if their Saturn conjuncts Pluto which happens for people born mid 1983. The point of exalted Saturn is to learn how to treat others fairly regardless of how they are. I've been tested on that many times and there are days when I want to destroy everything simply because I think it's "stupid." Yet, I've learned to tell myself that it's not worth it and move on. That's a really hard lesson to grasp, with or without exalted natal Saturn. I just think that if you have exalted Saturn, it would be a bit easier to grasp the hard lessons and have a less yucky time integrating them into your life.

As for the other Saturnians, like Aries, Leo, yes they can be quite vicious. Why? Because they are in debilitated positions. Saturn hates fire and the arrogance that goes with them which means Aries, Leo, Sag. Fire Saturns tend to overstep and cause others to be victims. Although, I tend to think Sag Saturn people are quite decent and generally quite polite, and not as bad as bossy Aries and Leo. Saturn is vicious towards the water signs esp. Cancer and may cause the person to get victimized (or rather, feel victimized regularly).

When I was 26, one of my work partners, an accountant (she was a Taurus Scorpio Cancer), was in her 60s and she read my chart. I found out she had been a professional astrologer for over 30 years. She told me, "Don't worry about your Saturn's return, just stay strong and you'll be fine." When she told me that, I had no idea what the heck she was talking about and just shrugged it off. That was the only time she mentioned about me and Saturn's return and other than that, we talked about it in general terms. She did mention that during her 1st return, she divorced her first husband, separated from their daughter and towards the end met her 2nd husband. I hadn't thought about it but now that I'm nearing the end of my Saturn's return, quite possibly, I've met my future 2nd husband (the lawyer) LOL

I didnít know that the first Saturn return began around the age of 28+. I must admit, I did get confused as my learning of Astrology began stemmed from my father teaching me Vedic Astrology here and there. Iím still a novice with the Western format.

My father understands Vedic Astrology and he explained to me that Vedic teachings explain that the Saturn return (ďSade-SatiĒ as it is coined in Sanskrit Ė meaning 7⅟2 years in this context), begins when Saturn enters the house before where it was, when the subject was born. E.g. In my case it would be when Libra is in Saturn, which it currently is. They also state that the return is sub-divided into 3 phases, each constituting of 2⅟2 years each. So according to them, my Sade-Sati would have commenced when Saturn entered Libra for 2⅟2 year (the first phase), will continue through into Scorpio for another 2⅟2 years (the second phase) and then into Sagittarius for another 2⅟2 years (the third and final phase), until in transits safely away into Capricorn which by my count should be November 2017. So I guess youíre right in saying that what I have experienced is merely turbulence and not the real storm of Saturn. Dam! I better be ready for whatís to come in that case, and get praying to Saturn soon. Lol.

Iím just a little curious as to what kind of things you experienced when your Saturn return occurred, since youíve made it sound excruciatingly.

I have heard of Saturn returns causing people to divorce their Ďthení partner/break up with their long term partner, leading them onto a new and exciting love. So I can relate to your paragraph about new partners.

I really hope things work out with you and your 2nd husband. :biggrin:

may28gemini
07-06-2012, 08:13 PM
I didn’t know that the first Saturn return began around the age of 28+. I must admit, I did get confused as my learning of Astrology began stemmed from my father teaching me Vedic Astrology here and there. I’m still a novice with the Western format.

My father understands Vedic Astrology and he explained to me that Vedic teachings explain that the Saturn return (“Sade-Sati” as it is coined in Sanskrit – meaning 7⅟2 years in this context), begins when Saturn enters the house before where it was, when the subject was born. E.g. In my case it would be when Libra is in Saturn, which it currently is. They also state that the return is sub-divided into 3 phases, each constituting of 2⅟2 years each. So according to them, my Sade-Sati would have commenced when Saturn entered Libra for 2⅟2 year (the first phase), will continue through into Scorpio for another 2⅟2 years (the second phase) and then into Sagittarius for another 2⅟2 years (the third and final phase), until in transits safely away into Capricorn which by my count should be November 2017. So I guess you’re right in saying that what I have experienced is merely turbulence and not the real storm of Saturn. Dam! I better be ready for what’s to come in that case, and get praying to Saturn soon. Lol.

I’m just a little curious as to what kind of things you experienced when your Saturn return occurred, since you’ve made it sound excruciatingly.

I have heard of Saturn returns causing people to divorce their ‘then’ partner/break up with their long term partner, leading them onto a new and exciting love. So I can relate to your paragraph about new partners.

I really hope things work out with you and your 2nd husband. :biggrin:

Ah yes, Vedic astrology is far different than Western astrology. And even within Western astrology, there's various "disciplines" that create confusion amongst. I was taught more traditional/ Hellenistic forms of astrology and by my own account of learning via osmosis, I've gotten quite good at Psychological astrology. If you started learning Vedic astrology and have done quite well in it, I would encourage you to continue furthering that sector of astrology. It's quite interesting and I think it will give you a really good foundation as far as understanding the relationship of how the planets interact with each other and dissecting the houses. Don't confuse Vedic with Western because they use completely different calendars and focus on different elements. The Vedic astrological explanation of Saturn's return sounds like it's a very long drawn out process.

Saturn's return is a huge subject and oddly enough, there's not much discussion of it. I think Saturn should have a big giant category solely in his honor because he is crucial for living life on a mundane level. But here's my breakdown of what's up with him.

Saturn moves very slowly and in a sign for about 2.5 years. It takes Saturn 29.5 years... nearly 30 years to make his rounds, which would explain why people say that turning 30 is like "death" and that would be correct. The first 30 years of your life is living out your previous life's karma. When Saturn makes his first return to your chart, it's Saturn's way of cutting your ties off with your old life as a child so you can begin your new life as an adult to be someone who has a stronger grasp on how to live life in this world. Saturn is Lord Karma, but also the Teacher. He teaches slowly, gradually, so unlike Mars you don't get hit in the face with immediate results. With Saturn, everything is built upon time. Once Saturn returns to your chart, if you've built a solid foundation, he'll reward you and very few will experience this. If you did not find your direction or didn't start to build a solid foundation, it will be a very rough time which is the typical experience. If you fight Saturn's lessons, things will continue to be difficult until you learn. That's why people "fear" Saturn/turn 30 so much. Saturn takes away that nice comfy couch you were given and you'll have to figure out a solution as to how/where/what to sit on next.

My allegory above is the general illustration of what goes on during one's Saturn's return. There's no particular pattern as to "what" happens during Saturn's return other than to say the individual restructures their lives. As to "how" someone restructures is completely up to them. Saturn teaches you that you have choices, but most of all, you NEED to make a decision and learn the importance of timing. You cannot sit on your hands, you cannot wait for things to fall in your lap. Saturn's return tends to give the feeling of urgency, the feeling of trouble brewing inside and outside of the person, but the individual must realize that it's completely up to them to DO something about it. Basically, Saturn will create the reality that you're on your own, and asks you the question, "so now what do you do?" You not only have to answer, you have to put your answer to action. You have to decide on something and work towards that goal.

As far as what I've personally experienced during my Saturn's return, as it's not over yet but here are a few things in no particular order...

1. Divorce from Leo/Scorpio/Virgo (this happened a 2 years before Saturn crossed my chart exact- basically, I kick started my Saturn's return with a divorce LOL) 2. Lost the job that I hated but started to pursue lines of work that I've always wanted which is writing 3. Emptied out my savings, trusts, so I ended up living off of very little money 4. Took a few random vacations on very little money and forced to rely on the "goodness" of others- and others did pull through for me 5. Had very brief and unsatisfying relationships that I complained weren't "real" 6. Lost some friends who were deadweights- was sad about it but realized it was for the better because I made room for 7. Made friends that are helpful towards me 8. Reconnected with my parents after 5 years of complete silence, namely my Dad 9. Reconnected with my old close friends I hadn't heard from in many years 10. The cat I had since my early college days died. I had spent $1000 of the little money I had for his hospitalization and giving him a rockstar death (learned that love comes with duties) 11. Dealt with constant feelings of lonliness, isolation, restrictions, lack of room to breathe 12. Learned to live with 75% less of everything and find out I have a great knack for the ascetic 13. Came back to being a vegetarian after my divorce, took up yoga, and returned from long hiatus from long distance cycling 14. In my early 20s I was flipping cars. During the early parts of my Saturn's return, I started flipping bikes 15. Realized that I love living alone so I rented a studio apartment in a fun, yet somewhat "shady" part of town but it's below market rate LOL 16. I became a more reliable friend, daughter, neighbor, worker, mother to my cat, and person overall. 17. Comfort my little cat who's experiencing transiting Saturn squaring his natal Saturn (he's starting to be bossy and demand love a bit more boldly) 18. I took the risk and moved back to LA (where I'm originally from) from San Francisco on very little money. Got rid of most of my worldy possessions and learned to not hold onto stuff as much.

Like I said, it's not over for me yet. I have this nagging feeling that I never do anything (typical of Saturn return effects) but looking back, I realized, I did a lot! Not everything happens gloom and doom. Some of my friends got married, bought a house, had kids, got fat, and live an a somewhat idyllic life with their family. I realized that, more or less, I "chose" to be single, athletic, and have freedom. Saturn does ask you, "What do you really want out of life?" and when you answer, he'll then ask, "What are you willing to do achieve that?" Saturn didn't become the Task Master out of vanity.

may28gemini
07-06-2012, 08:23 PM
To answer a previous question you asked, if I'm more Saturn or Jupiter because of my conjunction. I would say I'm pretty much both (creates Dr. Jerkyll and Mr. Hyde effect). Saturn isn't merciful but Jupiter is. It's very hard for me to operate my Saturn by throwing walls of reality at people without the Jupiter component of why I bother to do it in the first place- mercy. If I didn't care and I actually am cruel/mean, I would just let others stew in their own sludge and probably take great pleasure in it. I really don't take pleasure when people are in pain but I acknowledge that it's only pain and they have to go through it on their own. I'm not a moon person, I'm very Saturnian and Jupiterian as well- Saturn has to point out the negative so you can appreciate the positive (Jupiter). Jupiter wouldn't be loved nor shown any love if it weren't for Saturn giving Jupiter a reason to exist in the first place.

I don't know what you believe in, but you don't really need to "pray" to Saturn. All Saturn wants is for you to DO what you have to do, and do it the very best you can. Realism is the key to understanding Saturn, not spiritualism (which is Jupiter).

The_Saturnian
07-07-2012, 09:19 AM
To answer a previous question you asked, if I'm more Saturn or Jupiter because of my conjunction. I would say I'm pretty much both (creates Dr. Jerkyll and Mr. Hyde effect). Saturn isn't merciful but Jupiter is. It's very hard for me to operate my Saturn by throwing walls of reality at people without the Jupiter component of why I bother to do it in the first place- mercy. If I didn't care and I actually am cruel/mean, I would just let others stew in their own sludge and probably take great pleasure in it. I really don't take pleasure when people are in pain but I acknowledge that it's only pain and they have to go through it on their own. I'm not a moon person, I'm very Saturnian and Jupiterian as well- Saturn has to point out the negative so you can appreciate the positive (Jupiter). Jupiter wouldn't be loved nor shown any love if it weren't for Saturn giving Jupiter a reason to exist in the first place.

I don't know what you believe in, but you don't really need to "pray" to Saturn. All Saturn wants is for you to DO what you have to do, and do it the very best you can. Realism is the key to understanding Saturn, not spiritualism (which is Jupiter).


Yes Saturnís returns are quite thoroughly scrutinized by Vedic Astrologers and are delegated great importance. Sometimes I think they take the whole Saturn return thing, a bit too far because they seem to make it sound like itís the ultimate mid-life crises someone could experience. This in-depth emphasis on Saturnís return seems to instil unnecessary fear and worry in the subjectís mind for the duration of their return.

Iíve decided to pay attention to Western Astrology rather than Vedic (which I will leave for my dad to deal with Lol). As a result of sampling both, I feel that I am more intrigued by the Western system rather than the Vedic one. Plus things get even more complicated since Vedic Astrologers tend to study peopleís natal charts from a lunar perspective (i.e. from Moon being in the first house). So the whole chart and all the planets get shifted around.

Perhaps you should start/administer a thread on this to do with all things associated to Saturnís return.

I agree with the fact that Saturn is the Lord of Judgement/Karma. But when you say that that the return cuts of oneís ties with their previous incarnation, that would suggest that this life really begins at the age of 30 (i.e. upon completion of the first return). Right?

I must say that is a very detailed account of things that you have experienced during your Saturn return. It will nice to know what you experience for the remainder of your return.

I believe in the existence of the Supreme-One. Even though I was just kidding about praying to Saturn, I do have a serious confession to make. I actually do perform a certain prayer to Saturn on Saturdays to ward off Saturnís malefic effects in general. I have particularly begun to do it more often on a Saturday especially since I was under the false impression that my Saturn return had already begun. But I have been doing my Saturn worship since pretty I was kid really. (Dadís Vedic suggestions :P). But ultimately deeds/efforts outweigh prayers when it comes to the return.

P.S. Thanks for your answer on Jupiter and Saturn in Libra. I did find your co-relation to Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde in your explanation quite funny. Quite an apt description for such a circumstance though. I would have used something along the lines of ďClash of the GiantsĒ.

may28gemini
07-08-2012, 09:36 PM
In respect to "mid-life" crisis feel, I would say Saturn is merciful. Saturn's 1st return is not a crisis, well, not for those who are willing to learn what Saturn teaches. For those who fight and whine when Saturn shoves you up against the wall and then dropping you down a well with no light, well, godspeed! The whole point of Saturn striping you of all your comforts is because you are going to start new. You must learn to lay your own foundation and start your life the way you want to live. That's why anyone who sits on their hands during their Saturn's return is really SOL and have no one but to blame themselves. So yes, karmically, 30 is when a person truly gets to start their current carnation. From birth to 30 (or so) is a time you outlive your previous carnation to rectify what you owe but also enjoy what you've earned. As I said before, it's a time to seriously think about what you want to DO with your life and how you're going to DO it. Libra Saturn is exalted simply because it's 1. cardinal and must initiate 2. Interested in balance and how to maintain balance 3. concerned with making everything fair for everyone 4. motivated by the greater good 5. learn that you cannot always get your way and have to give /take with society
Libra is fallen as the Sun position, but Saturn dislikes the Sun and takes what's fallen in the Sun to make it exalted in his position. Leo is dignity Sun but became detriment in Saturn. Aries is exalted Sun but Saturn makes Aries fallen. Saturn isn't vengeful, but he would actually be what I call, "fair," tit for tat. Libra Saturn people understand that yes, we were born alone and we shall die alone, but during life, we need to cooperate with one another and that involves giving and lessen our egos to achieve something far greater. Food for thought.

Clash of the Titans would be something like... Saturn conjoin Uranus... now that's nutty. Saturn conjoin Jupiter is better as Dr. Jerkyll and Mr. Hyde because it's 1 person struggling to meld 2 seemingly strong personas into 1 in order to live. For the most part, My Saturn and Jupiter don't fight each other, even with my Sun it's trine and won't fight my ego. Everything flows together and I think it's probably because I did some good in my previous carnations to be born with great Saturn positions. You can look at my chart in my album entitled "charts" and get practice reading Western charts.

Sandra0406
07-09-2012, 03:08 AM
I have Saturn/Jupiter conjuction in 12th...I feel inside a struggle between child and adult...always come back to childhood memories,I am often very depressed.. return to the past... behave childishly...constantly going back,and on the other hand aware that I should accept the reality and responsibility for a present life,and the need to deal with the truths I have learned through life...because of this struggle,I feel very confused,and therefore I can not see anything positive in this position...

The_Saturnian
07-09-2012, 12:21 PM
I have Saturn/Jupiter conjuction in 12th...I feel inside a struggle between child and adult...always come back to childhood memories,I am often very depressed.. return to the past... behave childishly...constantly going back,and on the other hand aware that I should accept the reality and responsibility for a present life,and the need to deal with the truths I have learned through life...because of this struggle,I feel very confused,and therefore I can not see anything positive in this position...

Awww I feel for you Sandra. Don't worry though, as you may have read earlier in this thread Saturn, and possibly other threads relating to Saturn, he is the Lord of Karma/Judgement/Time etc. Although its difficult to get through one's life with such a combination which makes one's life a great struggle. Just remember that Saturn is a great teacher as may28Gemini has stated and irrespective of what he puts us through, he makes us stronger by the day :).

The_Saturnian
07-09-2012, 12:47 PM
In respect to "mid-life" crisis feel, I would say Saturn is merciful. Saturn's 1st return is not a crisis, well, not for those who are willing to learn what Saturn teaches. For those who fight and whine when Saturn shoves you up against the wall and then dropping you down a well with no light, well, godspeed! The whole point of Saturn striping you of all your comforts is because you are going to start new. You must learn to lay your own foundation and start your life the way you want to live. That's why anyone who sits on their hands during their Saturn's return is really SOL and have no one but to blame themselves. So yes, karmically, 30 is when a person truly gets to start their current carnation. From birth to 30 (or so) is a time you outlive your previous carnation to rectify what you owe but also enjoy what you've earned. As I said before, it's a time to seriously think about what you want to DO with your life and how you're going to DO it. Libra Saturn is exalted simply because it's 1. cardinal and must initiate 2. Interested in balance and how to maintain balance 3. concerned with making everything fair for everyone 4. motivated by the greater good 5. learn that you cannot always get your way and have to give /take with society
Libra is fallen as the Sun position, but Saturn dislikes the Sun and takes what's fallen in the Sun to make it exalted in his position. Leo is dignity Sun but became detriment in Saturn. Aries is exalted Sun but Saturn makes Aries fallen. Saturn isn't vengeful, but he would actually be what I call, "fair," tit for tat. Libra Saturn people understand that yes, we were born alone and we shall die alone, but during life, we need to cooperate with one another and that involves giving and lessen our egos to achieve something far greater. Food for thought.

Clash of the Titans would be something like... Saturn conjoin Uranus... now that's nutty. Saturn conjoin Jupiter is better as Dr. Jerkyll and Mr. Hyde because it's 1 person struggling to meld 2 seemingly strong personas into 1 in order to live. For the most part, My Saturn and Jupiter don't fight each other, even with my Sun it's trine and won't fight my ego. Everything flows together and I think it's probably because I did some good in my previous carnations to be born with great Saturn positions. You can look at my chart in my album entitled "charts" and get practice reading Western charts.

Just out of curiosity, where did/does the whole theory of the first 30 years of one's life begin at their age 30 (or thereabouts)? Ever since you made mention of it in your last post, it's really got stuck in my head LOL. I just find it to be quite an amazing theory, plus when I think of people that I know who have surpassed their age 30 I can re-collate some of their events that they described to me in conversations I had with them which they couldn't explain why minute their life was A-ok and suddenly, BAM! They feel like everything is beginning to fall around.

I can relate to Saturn being uncomfortable with all things 'fire' in astrology from a Vedic point of view. According to ancient Vedic history Shani (Saturn) was the son of Surya (The Sun - a representation of fire) and father and son never saw eye to eye. He also constantly felt unloved/isolated from his siblings. So from that it is but natural for Saturn not to feel comfortable with all things 'fire'.

may28gemini
07-09-2012, 05:25 PM
Saturn is cold, logical, and masculine. He represents societal pressures. At the worst representation is to conform, at the best is to contribute. Saturn must be that way because he was ambitious enough to stand up for his Mother (Earth- Gaia) from his father mistreating her. After he overthrew his father, Uranus, his term of rulership was known as the Golden Age where everyone did as they were suppose to and everyone did live in happiness... only he didn't want any of his children to overthrow him and swallowed them all LOL but that's why Saturn must rule the MC as that is representative of how we are all tied and duty bound to greater society and the IC is Cancer's domain which was something that Saturn is fallen in (personal/family life).

My "theory" of life truly starting at 30 or thereabouts (Saturn's 1st Return) is derived from me. Now, I'm sure there's astrologers (I'm not an astrologer) that would agree with me or have concepts that are similar, but what I wrote is my little take on Saturn's 1st Return 101. Whatever I write in the boards are NOT textbook, they are my interpretations and my own observations. People on this board are so reliant on texts and what others have to say about things. I find that the best way to learn is to observe, experience, and formulate your own concepts. But then again, you should have gotten practice by read my chart... I have Sun, Venus, Mercury in the 9th house. My MC conjuncts Mercury. I am very concerned with ideas and my identity comes from my strong abilities to formulate such ideas LOL

Going back to Saturn representing fears and societal pressures: only an adult would feel such sharp emotions about themselves, question how they are a part of society as a whole, and then actually do something about it. A child would pout, whine, cry about how they're not accepted in society and refuses to participate. People in their 20s are some of the BIGGEST whiners about everything- they don't do anything other than cry and run back to their parents. A lot of people in their 20s have self-bravado and arrogance that no doubt irk Saturn and by the time those fools hit their Saturn's return, the ego gets stripped and self-entitlement is a thing of the past. Around 30 is when the slate is cleaned off, the playing field is slightly more leveled and you have to stand up on your own with little or no help. By then, your family would consider you to be TOO old to assist anymore so you're going to have to do everything on your own. Your friends that you've had since childhood could have been outgrown, maybe you're moving in a different direction than they are, etc. The friends you keep post Saturn's return may very well be the ones you'll keep forever. That would explain why the person would "suddenly" feel like everything is crashing down upon them, when in REALITY, everything is actually getting focused and crystal clear: the person learns they are NOT as great as they thought they were, they are not invincible- they are mortal and are subject to all the rules and regulations of the universe: consequence.

The concept of consequence becomes a major theme for everyone going through their Saturn's return because Saturn doesn't bring about consequence, Saturn just makes you see it. Consequence has always been in existence, but nearly everyone has been blinded to it (at some point in their early lives) by the Sun (self ego) that they are oblivious to what's really happening in the world around them. Saturn is the TimeKeeper and will make you feel your own mortality. Saturn will show you that since you're not getting younger, better get your butt in gear and do what you were born to do- find a purpose and fulfill it, seek out those who are real and can help you grow (major Libra Saturn theme), contribute to society and live the way you want to live while being respectful to those around you.

I write about Saturn's intent- it is not doom, it a 2nd chance. Saturn will teach you what your parents couldn't teach you- you grow by learning and experience. If you don't learn, expect to repeat the same mess over and over again. Not a lot of people understand nor can articulate Saturn's modus operandi very well because the truth is, most people are not good with Saturn (on a karmic level) and do not look for the benefit behind the drudgery. Most people do not have strong Saturnian positions and get into more trouble which will make them karmically responsible to pay back not only in this carnation, but in the next one too. Saturn is always tit for tat and you'll always get what you paid for from him.

The_Saturnian
07-10-2012, 08:07 AM
My "theory" of life truly starting at 30 or thereabouts (Saturn's 1st Return) is derived from me. Now, I'm sure there's astrologers (I'm not an astrologer) that would agree with me or have concepts that are similar, but what I wrote is my little take on Saturn's 1st Return 101. Whatever I write in the boards are NOT textbook, they are my interpretations and my own observations. People on this board are so reliant on texts and what others have to say about things. I find that the best way to learn is to observe, experience, and formulate your own concepts. But then again, you should have gotten practice by read my chart... I have Sun, Venus, Mercury in the 9th house. My MC conjuncts Mercury. I am very concerned with ideas and my identity comes from my strong abilities to formulate such ideas LOL

Going back to Saturn representing fears and societal pressures: only an adult would feel such sharp emotions about themselves, question how they are a part of society as a whole, and then actually do something about it. A child would pout, whine, cry about how they're not accepted in society and refuses to participate. People in their 20s are some of the BIGGEST whiners about everything- they don't do anything other than cry and run back to their parents. A lot of people in their 20s have self-bravado and arrogance that no doubt irk Saturn and by the time those fools hit their Saturn's return, the ego gets stripped and self-entitlement is a thing of the past. Around 30 is when the slate is cleaned off, the playing field is slightly more leveled and you have to stand up on your own with little or no help. By then, your family would consider you to be TOO old to assist anymore so you're going to have to do everything on your own. Your friends that you've had since childhood could have been outgrown, maybe you're moving in a different direction than they are, etc. The friends you keep post Saturn's return may very well be the ones you'll keep forever. That would explain why the person would "suddenly" feel like everything is crashing down upon them, when in REALITY, everything is actually getting focused and crystal clear: the person learns they are NOT as great as they thought they were, they are not invincible- they are mortal and are subject to all the rules and regulations of the universe: consequence.

The concept of consequence becomes a major theme for everyone going through their Saturn's return because Saturn doesn't bring about consequence, Saturn just makes you see it. Consequence has always been in existence, but nearly everyone has been blinded to it (at some point in their early lives) by the Sun (self ego) that they are oblivious to what's really happening in the world around them. Saturn is the TimeKeeper and will make you feel your own mortality. Saturn will show you that since you're not getting younger, better get your butt in gear and do what you were born to do- find a purpose and fulfill it, seek out those who are real and can help you grow (major Libra Saturn theme), contribute to society and live the way you want to live while being respectful to those around you.

I write about Saturn's intent- it is not doom, it a 2nd chance. Saturn will teach you what your parents couldn't teach you- you grow by learning and experience. If you don't learn, expect to repeat the same mess over and over again. Not a lot of people understand nor can articulate Saturn's modus operandi very well because the truth is, most people are not good with Saturn (on a karmic level) and do not look for the benefit behind the drudgery. Most people do not have strong Saturnian positions and get into more trouble which will make them karmically responsible to pay back not only in this carnation, but in the next one too. Saturn is always tit for tat and you'll always get what you paid for from him.

A very interesting observation you have theorised about Saturn's effect on people around their 30 mark. I'll take some inspiration from you and try and devise my own theories based on things I will observe from now on. I will most definitely read the 4 charts you have posted (in particular your cat's - I didn't know people actually drew up their pet's charts. That one did crack me up LOL!)

may28gemini
07-10-2012, 07:31 PM
maybe you can help me figure out my cat's rising. i'm tempting at setting his rising as Libra like me, since we both have Pisces moon (expressive face). he is meticulous and neat. he also exhibits control over his eating proportions. heh, he's smarter than most people... :D

Sandra0406
07-10-2012, 07:39 PM
He is cuteeeeee!!!!:biggrin:

may28gemini
07-10-2012, 07:57 PM
yeah i know. he has saturn mc. at one point i thought about entering him into cat shows but i realized that meant i would have to be there and i hate spotlight so i decided against it. poor thing has debilitated Cancer Saturn. i rescued him when he was a kitten at 1 month old. he's nearly 8 years old, very insecure and thinks i'll abandon him. that's another trait to mark about debilitated Saturns: the fear of abandonment never really ever go away.

fortunately for lil guy (his name), he has exalted Saturn taking care of him :cool:

The_Saturnian
07-11-2012, 05:47 AM
I'll definately have to look at Lil Guy's chart inparticular. I may have to resort to close-up chiromancy to work out his rising sign. Certain facial features can be indicative of what the subject's rising sign is.

may28gemini
07-11-2012, 08:37 PM
Sandra, I only use whole sign house system and you have Saturn in the 1st. I think the reason why you've been mostly depressed and gloomy is because T Saturn transit your N Pluto. When T Saturn crossed my N Pluto (I think it was Nov last year) I was extremely depressed and laid low for all of November. I had major authority clashes with my living situation (complicated) where I battled (power struggle) with my roommate for him taking more money from me and sucking up the entire space in the house except for my room. After Nov, I started to feel cheery again.

Also, you have Asc conjunct Pluto which is a serious, quiet, alone sort of position. Saturn transit your Asc (as he did mine 2 years ago) and brought about some major changes which could have also contributed to your gloominess. No, you don't want Saturn in 12th, your Saturn is in 1st and your identity has undergone a major transformation.

Sandra0406
07-11-2012, 09:26 PM
Sandra, I only use whole sign house system and you have Saturn in the 1st. I think the reason why you've been mostly depressed and gloomy is because T Saturn transit your N Pluto. When T Saturn crossed my N Pluto (I think it was Nov last year) I was extremely depressed and laid low for all of November. I had major authority clashes with my living situation (complicated) where I battled (power struggle) with my roommate for him taking more money from me and sucking up the entire space in the house except for my room. After Nov, I started to feel cheery again.

Also, you have Asc conjunct Pluto which is a serious, quiet, alone sort of position. Saturn transit your Asc (as he did mine 2 years ago) and brought about some major changes which could have also contributed to your gloominess. No, you don't want Saturn in 12th, your Saturn is in 1st and your identity has undergone a major transformation.

Thanks a lot!!!Yes,you're right...When will it end up that Saturn's transit through the ASC?

may28gemini
07-11-2012, 11:40 PM
Well... I think because the effects are all slow and dragged out and you have late Libra rising...I would think it'll ease up for you when Saturn goes to Scorpio. For the most part Saturn has left your asc alone but he's finishing up in Libra so just to be safe- not until Oct.

may28gemini
07-11-2012, 11:43 PM
I forgot to tell you T Saturn conjunct N Pluto is very yucky. That's when there's a lot of power clashes. My car got towed 2x in one month during that transit. My roommate overcharged me rent then accused me of not being responsible for my cat LOL

Sandra0406
07-12-2012, 12:33 AM
Well... I think because the effects are all slow and dragged out and you have late Libra rising...I would think it'll ease up for you when Saturn goes to Scorpio. For the most part Saturn has left your asc alone but he's finishing up in Libra so just to be safe- not until Oct.

Oh, that's good news,I thought it would take much longer...I will handle that...:biggrin:

may28gemini
07-12-2012, 03:27 AM
sandra- sorry, i forgot you and i have similar outer planetary degrees!

we both have N Pluto 21 libra and when T Saturn hit 21 libra was late Oct 2011 and the YUCK effects lasted into say... the first week of December. was that the time frame when you felt really challenged by authority and you were NOT able to get your way? did you feel very badly depressed and gloomy like you have no one to turn to? because i totally felt that way. like i said, my car got towed 2x in the month and money issues exploded between me and my Capricorn roommate. on top of that, i wanted to go home and visit my parents but didn't have any money to do and felt stuck in the drudgery of an awful mood!

unfortunately for you, as T Saturn was ending the conjunction with your N Pluto, T Saturn started to conjunct your Asc at 24 Libra. that's probably why you've felt a very long stretch of loneliness and gloom.

right now Saturn is back at 22 Libra LOL so he's messing with our Pluto again (and your Asc)!!!! what's funny is, i've had power struggle- with my neighbors for messing with my apt (spray painting the front of it and messing with my mail) a few days ago when Saturn would have been in 21 Libra (exact conjunction) and i acted VERY plutonian (stood my ground). guess what? they actually were afraid i'd cause them more trouble so they stopped. very weird.

i wonder if because we had the same transits happening to us around the same time if we both felt similar?

luxsaxon
08-06-2012, 08:34 PM
But guarantee, he'll never slack off his job to teach you lessons that you need to learn, and he won't let you slack off either. If you learn the lessons well, Saturn rewards far greater and longer than Jupiter ever would, simply because you've actually earned it.


Does it mean that: A. a person learns the lesson well, B. begins a relationship with a person whose Mars squares his Saturn. C. But as this person have learnt well the lesson given by Saturn, this aspect in synastry is not negative?

may28gemini
08-06-2012, 09:19 PM
Does it mean that: A. a person learns the lesson well, B. begins a relationship with a person whose Mars squares his Saturn. C. But as this person have learnt well the lesson given by Saturn, this aspect in synastry is not negative?


a. no it does not mean the person learns lessons well. that is up to the individual how well they learn what they're "suppose" to learn

b. mars square saturn does not hinder the native from learning saturn's lessons. maybe the person would resist and have some initial difficulties integrating the lessons, but it does not mean the person cannot learn or will not learn. it's up to the native to determine if they will learn or not. what does the person's natal aspect have anything to do with you if you start a relationship with them?

c. this is not about synastry, this is about natal aspects.

SVP
07-25-2013, 05:50 AM
My saturn is all types of debilitated...It's retrograde in Aries conjunct the south node and all in the 5th house. It's not touching my moon, but my moon is also in the 5th house :/ but idk I feel like if I just buckle down and actually start to build and maintain strategies to translate my ideas into reality then I might have a chance to achieve my dreams...I plan on starting this school year