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Omnisphericus
02-14-2012, 11:38 AM
This conversation here
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46232
inspired me to open a thread were I/we would try to say more about this medieval technique of the "Giver of Life" (Hyleg) and the "Giver of Years" (Alcocoden), which according to the medieavls should give the amount of years of life to the native.

I will try firstly to give the example of the Hyleg and Alcocoden in the chart of the recently died pop diva Whitney Houston.

But first lets see what is Hyleg and Alcocoden.

Here is what Bernadettte Brady says about H & A:
The Hyleg is a planet in the chart that fulfils certain conditions. Once found, it
signifies that life is present. Generally the planet’s individual nature does not reflect
on the quality of this life force, but the presence of a Hyleg tells the astrologer that life
is granted to the horoscope. The astrologer will then look for the planet, which has a
certain relationship to the Hyleg, and this planet is called the Alcoccoden. The duty of
the Alcoccoden is to allocate the years or length of life. If there is no Hyleg in a chart,
there can be no Alcoccoden.

So, Hyleg and Alcocoden are showing the Vital Life Force of the native. They show how much years in life do you have according to the 'Esse' or the condition of your body and soul. With the modern medicine it seems out that this Esse is prolonged, but we will see how in the case of Whitney Houston this is almost exact.
If the nativity dies from a serial killer, or a car accident H & A does not count, they do not show the accidents, they show the condition of the body and soul and accordingly how much years one have.

Here is the summary of the planets and points which can be potential Hylegs:

In Day charts, we’re looking for the:
• Sun above the horizon in a masculine quarter (11th or 10th), or
• Sun above the horizon in a feminine quarter (7th, 9th) in a masculine sign, or
• Moon below the horizon in a feminine quarter (4th, 5th), or
• Moon below the horizon in a masculine quarter (1st, 2nd, 3rd) in a feminine sign

In Night charts, we’re looking for the:
• Moon above the horizon in a feminine quarter (9th, 7th), or
• Moon above the horizon in a masculine quarter (10th, 11th) in a feminine sign, or
• Sun below the horizon in a masculine quarter (1st, 2nd), or
• Sun below the horizon in a feminine quarter (4th or 5th) in a masculine sign


Potential hylegs are the Sun, Moon, Part of Fortune, Asc and SAN. Or instead of using
the PoF, Asc and SAN itself, you are to take the Lord of the place or the Almuten of the
place. Some instructions advise you to look for the Almuten of all these places.
As a general rule, the potential Hyleg must aspect at least one of its dignity rulers.
Ptolemy appears to be the only exception in this, preferring a planet with two or more
dignities and no aspect over a planet in aspect with only one dignity.
Alchabitius rejected the Moon as hyleg if she was under the Sun’s beams. Heliodorus
rejected any planet as hyleg if it was USB (under the sun beams)

The Hyleg is the giver of life. Once it is found, we need to look for the Alcochoden
or giver of years.

(taken from the group Angelicus Merlin).


Lets take the example of Whitney Houston.
26865

Her chart is a night chart so we first look for a potential Hyleg in the Moon.
Moon is under the Horizon in a night chart, so it can not be Hyleg.
Then we go to the Sun (in a day chart we first go with the Sun), the Sun is in cadent 6th house so it can not be Hyleg too.
Than we look at the Syzygy, or the last lunation prior the birth. In the Whitney's chart it was a Full Moon prior the birth so the chart is so called Preventional and we take the Pars Fortuna as potential Hyleg.
It is in 4th in Cancer.
We now look at the dispositors to see which dispositor takes the most dignity points at the degree in which the PoF is.
For that reason we take the dignity table, I will use here a table with triplicities according to Dorotheus and terms according to the egiptians.
Domicil ruler takes 5 points, exaltation ruler 4, triplicity ruler 3, term ruler 2 and face ruler 1 point.
Moon, domicil ruler = 5 points
Jupiter exaltation ruler 4 points
Mars, triplicity ruler 3 points
Venus, term ruler 2 points
Venus, face ruler 1 point.

Next we look if the Moon (as having the most points in that degree in which PoF is) is making some classical (conjunction, sextile, square, trine, opposition) aspect to the PoF. She is making a square to the Fortuna but it is in wide orbs (although in the moiety). Jupiter is out of orb. Venus is not in aspect. Mars is making a partile (exact) aspect to the PoF and we will take him instead of the Moon (because it is in partile aspect).

So, Part Of Fortune is a Hyleg in Whitney's chart and Mars is Alcocoden.

Next we look at the years table of the planets potential Alcocodens:
26866

We see that the minor years of Mars are 15, Middle Years 40,5 and major years 66.
Mars is angular but in very week sign position (in Exile) so we will take its Middle years (40.5).
Next, we look at the aspects which Mars receives from the benefics and malefics.
If benefic aspects the Alcocoden with Con, sextile or trine adds its minor years as years and its middle years as months, weeks or days (according to the position in which lies).
If Malefic aspects the Alcocoden, subtract from the Alcocoden with its minor years and middle years as months, weeks or days.

Mars is aspecting the other malefic Saturn, but with trine (so this not subtract years because it is benevolent aspect).
Mars is making opposition with Jupiter but out of orb, and with opposition so this does not add to the years.
Mars is making a sextile to Venus and she can add her minor years.
So we add Venus' minor years (8), and her middle years as days (45), because she is cadent and combust. If she was in good position we would add her middle eyars as months.

So we have,
40.5years + 8years + 45 days = 48 years 7 months and 15 days.
Whitney lived 48 years 6 months and 2 days.

JUPITERASC
02-14-2012, 04:10 PM
Omnisphericus, that's an uncannily accurate example you just illustrated! :smile:

So in a hypothetical case... if potential Hyleg IS ONE OF the dignity rulers BUT is not aspecting any of the other dignity rulers would you eliminate that planet as Hyleg and continue to the next potential candidate? If not then Hyleg could be also Alcocoden?

- e.g. (a) Night chart, Moon in Cancer above horizon in a feminine quarter but not in aspect to Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter or Saturn (b) Day chart Sun in Leo above the horizon in a masculine quarter but not in aspect to Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter or Saturn.

DreamingTheSeas
02-14-2012, 05:09 PM
Omnisphericus,

You said :If the nativity dies from a serial killer, or a car accident H & A does not count, they do not show the accidents, they show the condition of the body and soul and accordingly how much years one have.

What about suicides? It has to be the same with accidents and homicides. So for many many people Hyleg and Alco does not work because many many people die in road accidents, sea and air accidents, earthquakes, tsunamis e.t.c.

I've read somewhere (don't remember where), that Alcocoden's protection stops after the end of period, in the case of late Whitney Houston Mars 40,5 years but doesn't that means that life ends but the protection ends.

Culpeper
02-14-2012, 06:29 PM
Thank you for that very good example. I will study it more when I have time. The sun is hyleg in my chart, but the alcocoden has proved elusive so I must have no years. My sun, moon and other planets are conjunct deadly fixed stars, and from time to time dangerous accidents take me by surprise, but I am still here.

Omnisphericus
02-14-2012, 09:05 PM
Omnisphericus, that's an uncannily accurate example you just illustrated! :smile:

So in a hypothetical case... if potential Hyleg IS ONE OF the dignity rulers BUT is not aspecting any of the other dignity rulers would you eliminate that planet as Hyleg and continue to the next potential candidate? If not then Hyleg could be also Alcocoden?

- e.g. (a) Night chart, Moon in Cancer above horizon in a feminine quarter but not in aspect to Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter or Saturn (b) Day chart Sun in Leo above the horizon in a masculine quarter but not in aspect to Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter or Saturn.

JUPITERASC, I'm not familiar of the probability of Hyleg to be Alcocoden also.
I think that I read somewhere that that possibility is possible too, but I'm not quite familiar with where and when and in what occasions.
In other words, I'm not sure. But it is a very good question and I look forward to find answer on it.

Omnisphericus
02-14-2012, 09:27 PM
Omnisphericus,

You said :If the nativity dies from a serial killer, or a car accident H & A does not count, they do not show the accidents, they show the condition of the body and soul and accordingly how much years one have.

What about suicides? It has to be the same with accidents and homicides. So for many many people Hyleg and Alco does not work because many many people die in road accidents, sea and air accidents, earthquakes, tsunamis e.t.c.

I've read somewhere (don't remember where), that Alcocoden's protection stops after the end of period, in the case of late Whitney Houston Mars 40,5 years but doesn't that means that life ends but the protection ends.

Hmm interesting reasoning. I think that even suicides and accidents of all kind happen first in the mental/astral realm and the condition of the natives mental/astral bodies is a causative trigger here. In other words, the mental-emotional make up of the person is leading him toward physical accidents.
I never saw in my life quite balanced emotionally person to have an accident. Somehow these persons are mastering the physical plane with their mental-emotional vitality.
I can recall of the example which Swami Yogananda gives. Someday in his region an accident happen to some kid: he looses the finger.
Yogananda said to him later: "I saw a dark cloud above your head prior your accident". Vedic astrologers says that planetary configurations (accordingly with the transits, directions and in correlation to the natal chart) opens an astral door for some significance, or mental-astral material which enters in that persons well being. How mature and how it would handle that it is up to the person and maybe some other factors of which we are not aware.
My point here is that physical plane is not all that it exists. So the vitality is something which is and can be relative for a person who works on their inner self developing. Hermeticists says: (Astra inclinant, non necessitant) The stars incline; they do not determine.
So, in a way, the life of the man who is spiritually advanced and the one who is not is different. The first is less predictable than the second.
But again, we can see how very advanced spiritual masters die younger than some quite ordinary man.
It is a deep subject, and my reasoning here is speculative and subjective, but at the moment it is the best I can give.
However, I'm not sure whether the Alcocoden acts as protection. But it can be said like that, it is a state of the vital force, its condition in your 3 bodies: mental, astral and physical. If one is an Alchemist, working with the Stone which is made by man's sperm in which it is pressed a vital force in the maximum amount in human's body, than one can gain immortality, so the Alcocoden here does not count! You have transmute the Alcocoden! :)

Omnisphericus
02-14-2012, 09:29 PM
Thank you for that very good example. I will study it more when I have time. The sun is hyleg in my chart, but the alcocoden has proved elusive so I must have no years. My sun, moon and other planets are conjunct deadly fixed stars, and from time to time dangerous accidents take me by surprise, but I am still here.

Culpeper, don't be so negative. Do not let astrology to be your self-fulfilling prophecy!
If you have a good positioned benefics it can be very helpful. Do you have your chart posted on this forum?

tsmall
02-15-2012, 03:03 PM
I have a question, if I may.

In Day charts, we’re looking for the:
• Sun above the horizon in a masculine quarter (11th or 10th), or
• Sun above the horizon in a feminine quarter (7th, 9th) in a masculine sign, or
• Moon below the horizon in a feminine quarter (4th, 5th), or
• Moon below the horizon in a masculine quarter (1st, 2nd, 3rd) in a feminine sign

In Night charts, we’re looking for the:
• Moon above the horizon in a feminine quarter (9th, 7th), or
• Moon above the horizon in a masculine quarter (10th, 11th) in a feminine sign, or
• Sun below the horizon in a masculine quarter (1st, 2nd), or
• Sun below the horizon in a feminine quarter (4th or 5th) in a masculine sign


Potential hylegs are the Sun, Moon, Part of Fortune, Asc and SAN. Or instead of using
the PoF, Asc and SAN itself, you are to take the Lord of the place or the Almuten of the
place. Some instructions advise you to look for the Almuten of all these places.
As a general rule, the potential Hyleg must aspect at least one of its dignity rulers.
Ptolemy appears to be the only exception in this, preferring a planet with two or more
dignities and no aspect over a planet in aspect with only one dignity.
Alchabitius rejected the Moon as hyleg if she was under the Sun’s beams. Heliodorus
rejected any planet as hyleg if it was USB (under the sun beams)

The Hyleg is the giver of life. Once it is found, we need to look for the Alcochoden
or giver of years.

First to clarify that in this explination "quarter" is synonomous with house? I understand that if Sun or Moon are not positioned as described, we need to look to an alternate, and again in Whitney's chart you have done so. How to decide which alternate to look at first? Is the SAN the next one, and what to do if it is Conjunctional (and out of curiosity, what if it's an eclipse?)

Omnisphericus
02-15-2012, 03:54 PM
I have a question, if I may.



First to clarify that in this explination "quarter" is synonomous with house? I understand that if Sun or Moon are not positioned as described, we need to look to an alternate, and again in Whitney's chart you have done so. How to decide which alternate to look at first? Is the SAN the next one, and what to do if it is Conjunctional (and out of curiosity, what if it's an eclipse?)

No, quarter is a set of 3 houses: 1,2,3/4,5,6/7,8,9/10,11,12/
If Sun or Moon are not adequate for Hyleg then you look to the Syzygy (SAN - Syzygyium Ante Nativatem), if the last lunation prior the birth was New Moon it is said that the chart is Conjunctional and you look for the ASC as potential Hyleg.
If the last lunation prior the birth was Full Moon, it is said that the chart is Preventional and you look to the PoF for potential Hyleg.

Lilly suggest that if nor Sun nor Moon can not be Hyleg, then you go to the Degree of the New Moon (Conjunction) if the chart is diurnal (sun above the horizon in the natal chart) and you take the Almuten (the planet which has the highest dignity points in that degree) of that degree in which the Moon is in the syzygy of the new moon; that planet is potential Hyleg (in this method all planets can be Hyleg).
If the chart is nocturnal (Sun bellow the horizon in the natal chart) you took the last Full Moon (Preventional) Degree and seek the Almuten of that degree to be the potential Hyleg planet.

tsmall
02-15-2012, 04:44 PM
I apologize if I seem dense, but I am trying to understand when the Hyleg is not obvious. From my own chart, Sun is in Libra above the horizon but only 12* above the ASC. So 12th or 1st depending on the house system preferred. Moon is in Pisces below the horizon, in 6th. So according to the explination, neither can be Hyleg. Since it is a day chart, next we look at the prenatal lunation, in this case a New Moon/eclipse at 18Virgo53, and see what planet has most dignity. That would be Mercury, hands down, right? Mercury gets 9 points (domicile and exaltation ruler) Venus is triplicity and face ruler for 4 points (though in fall -4...does that even out to 0?) and Saturn gets 2 for term. So, Mercury has most dignity. But, Mercury is in Libra at 10* and makes no aspect to that degree. Is it still Hyleg? Nothing makes an in orb aspect to that degree. The closest is moon at 27Pis41, and Saturn retro at 7 Taurus Mercury is retro and combust, and Moon is peregrine and cadent. Are they disqualified?

Omnisphericus
02-15-2012, 05:14 PM
I apologize if I seem dense, but I am trying to understand when the Hyleg is not obvious. From my own chart, Sun is in Libra above the horizon but only 12* above the ASC. So 12th or 1st depending on the house system preferred. Moon is in Pisces below the horizon, in 6th. So according to the explination, neither can be Hyleg. Since it is a day chart, next we look at the prenatal lunation, in this case a New Moon/eclipse at 18Virgo53, and see what planet has most dignity. That would be Mercury, hands down, right? Mercury gets 9 points (domicile and exaltation ruler) Venus is triplicity and face ruler for 4 points (though in fall -4...does that even out to 0?) and Saturn gets 2 for term. So, Mercury has most dignity. But, Mercury is in Libra at 10* and makes no aspect to that degree. Is it still Hyleg? Nothing makes an in orb aspect to that degree. The closest is moon at 27Pis41, and Saturn retro at 7 Taurus Mercury is retro and combust, and Moon is peregrine and cadent. Are they disqualified?

tsmall, it would be better to post your chart if you are able and willing to do that.
If Sun is in 12th but 5 degrees near the AC then it can be Hyleg, but with 12 you are right, it can not be!
According to Lilly you are looking at the degree of the syzygy moon, but according to Bonatti and his friends we first go with the AC and PoF.
So, we first look what lunation was prior the birth, if the Moon is waning in phase then the last lunation was Full Moon so we take PoF as potential Hyleg.
If the moon phase in your chart is in waxing phase then the last lunation prior the birth was New Moon so we look at the AC as potential Hyleg.

'The Lilly's method' I use last, when nothing of this 4 can not be Hyleg: Sun,Moon,Ac,PoF.

waybread
02-15-2012, 06:22 PM
Omnisphericus, I really appreciate your offering a more learned take on "death clock astrology" than the run-of-the-mill "OMG, my sun just moved into the 8th house!" and so on.

So here are a few of my problems with all of this. Please set me straight where you think I've misinterpreted something. I am relying heavily on James R. Lewis, ed., The Astrology Book; Fred Gettings, The Arkana Dictionary of Astrology; and the glossary at Skyscript.

1. The Skyscript definition of alcocoden www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/alchocoden.html (http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/alchocoden.html) leaves me wondering whether some charts wouldn't have this degree point at all, especially if one restricts the planets to the 7 of traditional astrology. Have you ever found this to be the case? Gettings says that the alcocoden is simply the Arab term for hyleg. So there appear to be different interpretations of what this is and how to apply it.

2. There are different methods for calculating the hyleg, and they don't all agree. I've come across references to different methods in Neugebauer and Van Hoesen, Greek Horoscopes ( Babillus); Ptolemy, Tetrabiblos; Dorotheus (Carmen Astrologicum) Guido Bonatti (as explained in Zoller's Tools and Techniques of the Medieval Astrologers; )William Lilly; John Gadbury, and Henry Coley (Lewis, p. 346.) Vettius Valens (Anthologies) also has a long section on predicting length of life. According to J. Lee Lehman in the Lewis encyclopedia, the astrologer Penny Shelton checked out six different methods for calculating the hyleg with reference to a school shooting in Scotland in 1996, in which some children died and some survived. Apparently she found the Bonatti method to work the best, although Lehman suggested some omissions in her methodology. So which one is the correct method?

3. It just seems to me, in death prediction, that a wrong prediction is simply not good enough. This isn't like predicting whether someone will win the lottery or get the plum job. Death is final, finito; and a doomsday date would fill most people with a lot of anxiety. I have seen several members on this and another forum have the bejeesus scared out of them by a "friend" playing Sorcerer's Apprentice with their charts in this manner. For this and other ethical reasons, several astrological organizations prohibit their members from engaging in death prediction among their clients or forum members.

Of course, it's different if someone wants to go back and see how a given method pans out for someone who is already deceased. Far be it from me to limit intellectual inquiry, provided they don't try to apply it to their friends or clients.

I will note that death prediction was a big reason why astrology was banned at different times in the past ; and a big reason why rational people dismissed astrology during the late Renaissance, when some notorious death predictions were incorrect-- by several years. (Cf. Jim Tester, A History of Western Astrology; Tamsyn Barton, Ancient Astrology.)

4. I think there is a rational problem, as well. How good are any of these methods in predicting mass deaths, where the deaths of hundreds or even thousands of people are nearly simultaneous? If a jumbo jet blows up (cf. the Lockerbie, Scotland crash), if thousands of people are swept away by a tsunami (as has happened in recent years in Southeast Asia and Japan) or when atomic bombs were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, it just beggers credulity to think that each of these victims' alcocodens and hylegs got simultaneously activated.

Length of life remains a huge concern today, but it must have been even more so in the past when life expectancy was so low and many children died in infancy. Today in the US/Canada, the average life expectancy for women is around 80 years. (Definition of average life expectancy: the age by which half the members of a specific age cohort have died.) And most of the earlier mortality occurs when women are elderly. It is hard to imagine that somehow all of these millions of horoscopes got recalibrated to account for the various reasons why people are living longer.

tsmall
02-15-2012, 10:59 PM
tsmall, it would be better to post your chart if you are able and willing to do that.
If Sun is in 12th but 5 degrees near the AC then it can be Hyleg, but with 12 you are right, it can not be!
According to Lilly you are looking at the degree of the syzygy moon, but according to Bonatti and his friends we first go with the AC and PoF.
So, we first look what lunation was prior the birth, if the Moon is waning in phase then the last lunation was Full Moon so we take PoF as potential Hyleg.
If the moon phase in your chart is in waxing phase then the last lunation prior the birth was New Moon so we look at the AC as potential Hyleg.

'The Lilly's method' I use last, when nothing of this 4 can not be Hyleg: Sun,Moon,Ac,PoF.

Omnisphericus, I didn't want to turn this into a rmc, but chart attached. It's a good question about Sun in 12th, mainly because I've never understood how the Sun, above the horizon in a day chart, in the same sign as the ASC could be cadent, but that's probably a topic for another thread. I see now that we should have looked at ASC all along, and I must have misunderstood the directions. :unsure:

waybread, I understand your concerns about predicting death, but I don't think that is what we are trying to learn here. I don't know if you read the thread that inspired this one (linked in the OP), but Omnisphericus and others were quite clear that this method is not about predicting death per se...

Actually, the Hyleg and Alcocoden were to show the actual Life (Vital) Force in the particular person according to their condition in the chart.
Hyleg is the 'Giver of Life', or the giver of Vitality. Alcocoden is 'The Giver of Years'.
Bonatti call this 'Esse' or the Condition of the native.
We now can go further to see the root of the word 'Essential'. So the Hyleg and Alcocoden are showing the Essentiality of the person's 'nature', and according to the planet's condition in the chart it was given the proportional amount of time for living. As you've mentioned, in modern times this proportional time of living (by the conditions shown in the chart) is prolonged by the means of modern apparatus, though in my own experimenting with Hyleg and Alcocoden in the charts of already dead persons (of which I didn't knew the actual year of death while calculating) this number does not go further then 5-6 years - and +, though in most of the cases I was close to 1-2 year of the actual death.

We must say here that an accidental death is not count here. If a person dies from a serial killer, or in a car accident, or fell out of the bridge, it does not count. Alcocoden and Hyleg, as I've said, shows the actual amount of Life Force, or the amount of Vitality, not the destiny of the end of time of particular man.

Kaiousei no Senshi
02-16-2012, 12:23 AM
As a general rule, the potential Hyleg must aspect at least one of its dignity rulers.


What happens if it doesn't? Does it lose its position as Hyleg and we move on to examine the next available candidate?

waybread
02-16-2012, 03:18 AM
tsmall, you might have missed the following in my previous post.

....several astrological organizations prohibit their members from engaging in death prediction among their clients or forum members.

Of course, it's different if someone wants to go back and see how a given method pans out for someone who is already deceased. Far be it from me to limit intellectual inquiry, provided they don't try to apply it to their friends or clients.....

But let's not kid ourselves as to how these formulae are used.

tsmall
02-16-2012, 04:02 AM
tsmall, you might have missed the following in my previous post.



But let's not kid ourselves as to how these formulae are used.

waybread, you know that I think the world of you, and we are not talking about the TNG episode with the 60ish scientist who is required by law to self terminate here. I didn't miss what you posted, and I don't think any other subscribers to this thread did either. The thing is, this is the traditional forum, and we are allowed to discuss traditional astrology here..and as you yourself pointed out, traditionally astrologers were concerned with length of life. As this is primarily a learning forum, and no one here to my knowledge is anyone's client, and it has been stipulated that these are methods that are both contested and approximate...we are not looking at the acutal prediction of death? More like, we are looking at the essence of life, and vitality, and learning something that many, many traditional astrologers had an opinion on. So, while I humbly get that you have an objection...where's the harm in understanding how the masters of traditional astrology considered the Hyleg and Alcocoden?

dr. farr
02-16-2012, 04:05 AM
However, I do think that many use this kind of thing for indications of potential critical years rather than fatalistic death clock predicting-I KNOW that most reputable jyotish use "longevity" evaluations for just that purpose (indications of critical years), and in astro-therapeutics these "red flag" indications, derived from such methods, are of value in preventive therapeutics.
For example-and completely different from the technique described in this thread-use of simple symbolic progression (1 year = 1 degree, first mentioned in the 12th century by Ibn Ezra in his "Beginning of Wisdom") can be quite valuable in pointing out potentially critical times: use of the progressed SN to various natal points is one of these valuable methods: in the case of Whitney Houston, her progressed SN conjuncted her ascending degree (8 Pisces) at her 48th birthday (natal SN @ 20 Capricorn): astro-therapeutically, this would have been a red flag that her 48th year was a definite critical period, and preventive measures (low stress, much care about drugs and medication, tonification for her heart-which her natal indicated as a potential weak area in her health, etc) would have been prescribed for her by a knowledgeable practitioner; the fact that classical hyleg/alcohedron analysis (which I myself do not use) also indicated her 48th year as possibly anaretic (as one of 3 such possible critical years using the analysis given in this thread) would have decidedly underscored the critical-ness of the 48th year and the importance of undertaking natural (non-drug) preventive and corrective measures, during that time...

Omnisphericus
02-16-2012, 04:14 AM
1. The Skyscript definition of alcocoden www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/alchocoden.html leaves me wondering whether some charts wouldn't have this degree point at all, especially if one restricts the planets to the 7 of traditional astrology. Have you ever found this to be the case? Gettings says that the alcocoden is simply the Arab term for hyleg. So there appear to be different interpretations of what this is and how to apply it.
Waybread, Bonatti gives the so called 4 Differentia Charts.
Here is a summary from Bernadette Brady:
The First Differentia Chart
If the chart fulfils the following conditions, it is deemed to be a First Differentia Chart
and the native dies without taking food.

First Differentia - Ptolemy according to Bonatti

Look at the main Luminary of the chart (Sun by day and Moon by night.)
If the degree of this luminary as well as the degree of the Ascendant are both in a
partile conjunction, square or opposition to a non-dignified Malefic. AND the rulers
of BOTH Luminaries are cadent.
Then the chart is deemed a First Differentia chart.

First Differentia - Ptolemy - from Tetrabiblos Book III
If either luminary be in an angle and one of the malefics is either conjunct that
luminary or on the midpoint of the two luminaries, while at the same time no benefic
may partake of the configuration AND the rulers of the luminaries are also located in
places belonging to or controlled by malefics, then the chart is a First Differentia chart


Second Differentia charts
The same as First differentia charts but instead of partile aspects from the malefics to
the luminaries, there are orbs involved.

Third Differentia Charts - The child dies before the age of 12 years old

Fourth Differentia Charts - Charts that reach maturity and can obtain old age.
Any chart that has a Hyleg and thus an Alcoccoden and whose Almudebit is not
cadent while either it (the Almudebit) or the Ascendant or the Luminaries are being
weakened by a malefic.

So, if there is no Hyleg, there is great possibility that the chart is First or Second Differentia chart. In her article "Hyleg and Alcocoden", Brady gives a charts examples for these cases.

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2. There are different methods for calculating the hyleg, and they don't all agree.
So which one is the correct method?

This can be told by experimentation. I'm in a phase where I try the methods one by one and see which of them works the best.
The Whitney Houston's example I've calculate with the summary method of the points of which most of the authors agree, and which I gave in my first post on this thread.
But I aim to try them all one by one when I have more time to do that.
----------
3. It just seems to me, in death prediction, that a wrong prediction is simply not good enough. This isn't like predicting whether someone will win the lottery or get the plum job. Death is final, finito; and a doomsday date would fill most people with a lot of anxiety. I have seen several members on this and another forum have the bejeesus scared out of them by a "friend" playing Sorcerer's Apprentice with their charts in this manner. For this and other ethical reasons, several astrological organizations prohibit their members from engaging in death prediction among their clients or forum members.
I agree, it can be a self-fulfilling prophecy. Therefore the experienced astrologer would never predict a death of someone. Gauricius predicted a PROBABLE death of Henry the II, and he told him that, but as a matter of precaution. So, was the death of Henry the II a self-fulfilling prophecy is a matter of speculation and question for an open debate.

I will note that death prediction was a big reason why astrology was banned at different times in the past ; and a big reason why rational people dismissed astrology during the late Renaissance, when some notorious death predictions were incorrect-- by several years. (Cf. Jim Tester, A History of Western Astrology; Tamsyn Barton, Ancient Astrology.)
Therefore Robert Zoller says: "I don't know, only God knows".
The past of the humanity and astrology through the ages is full with pseudo-astrologers, so they should not be the reason why we should throw out the predictive astrology. Actually, if you read all the traditional astrologers you will see that they all were PREDICTIONAL Astrologers, and not a character readers as many modern astrologers.
I don't say that the psychology astrology is wrong, it has certain positive aspects, but for me its not the Real Astrology and what Astrology really was in the past. So, bad reputation can be gained by several pseudo astrologers and this does not mean that astrology and its predictive aspect is all wrong. 'Pseudos' you have in every field of the sciences if astrology may be called a science (maybe not in a modern language).

4. I think there is a rational problem, as well. How good are any of these methods in predicting mass deaths, where the deaths of hundreds or even thousands of people are nearly simultaneous? If a jumbo jet blows up (cf. the Lockerbie, Scotland crash), if thousands of people are swept away by a tsunami (as has happened in recent years in Southeast Asia and Japan) or when atomic bombs were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, it just beggers credulity to think that each of these victims' alcocodens and hylegs got simultaneously activated.
Waybread, these are the questions which the astronomers and other non-believers in astrology's accuracy are using in their fights with astrologers.
I know that you have certain questions but I'm not an astrology apologet and I do not have the answers.

Length of life remains a huge concern today, but it must have been even more so in the past when life expectancy was so low and many children died in infancy. Today in the US/Canada, the average life expectancy for women is around 80 years. (Definition of average life expectancy: the age by which half the members of a specific age cohort have died.) And most of the earlier mortality occurs when women are elderly. It is hard to imagine that somehow all of these millions of horoscopes got recalibrated to account for the various reasons why people are living longer.
I agree that today in modern times the life is prolonged.
Here's what an answer I receive on some other forum from a traditional astrologer when we were making an conversation about the Hyleg and Alcocoden:
I also think modern medicine has altered the course of lives in some
cases so we have more freewill maybe than people used to have. My chart
shows my death before a year old, and I did die at 10months old. With
modern medicine, I was revived, lived on a respirator for 3 weeks and am
still here today; in the middle ages, I would not have lived. So
take these rules as a warning not an absolute.
__________________

Omnisphericus
02-16-2012, 04:15 AM
Omnisphericus, I didn't want to turn this into a rmc, but chart attached. It's a good question about Sun in 12th, mainly because I've never understood how the Sun, above the horizon in a day chart, in the same sign as the ASC could be cadent, but that's probably a topic for another thread. I see now that we should have looked at ASC all along, and I must have misunderstood the directions. :unsure:

waybread, I understand your concerns about predicting death, but I don't think that is what we are trying to learn here. I don't know if you read the thread that inspired this one (linked in the OP), but Omnisphericus and others were quite clear that this method is not about predicting death per se...

I will look at the chart later and will answer your questions. :)

Omnisphericus
02-16-2012, 04:18 AM
Quote:
As a general rule, the potential Hyleg must aspect at least one of its dignity rulers.

What happens if it doesn't? Does it lose its position as Hyleg and we move on to examine the next available candidate?


Yes, it must have an aspect. Take the Moiety Orbs Table and look for those kind of aspects, not a modern use of the aspect where for example, they all use 6 orbs for Sextile, 9 orbs for Square and etc.
According to Lilly, every planet has a certain orb. When two planets are in aspect you take the half of the total sum of their orbs and you use that as maximum limit for the aspect.

dr. farr
02-16-2012, 04:23 AM
TSMALL
In whole sign, Sun in same sign as ascendant and above the ascending degree CANNOT be cadent-it must be in the first house; Liber Hermetis (earlier than the 6th century AD) made a big deal about this, and gave quite different indications for the Sun IN THE FIRST HOUSE, being above the ascending degree (therefore diurnal) vs being below the ascending degree (and therefore being nocturnal)
Only in Equal house and all the quadrant systems, can the diurnal Sun in the same sign as the ascending degree, become "cadent" by being placed (by these methods) in the 12th...I consider this evidence of the unnatural ramifications which various theoretical house division systems, can produce...(my opinion)

waybread
02-16-2012, 04:43 AM
tsmall, I admire you as well! Actually, I think we agree that if people wish to study traditional astrology, there is no harm in exploring its many pathways.

Where I would draw the line, however, is in actually applying length-of-life determinations to give a living person a death prediction. I can give additional reasons, if anyone is interested. I just feel the need to state this because I have seen threads where a fledgling astrologer gives a "friend" a death prediction and it messes up the friend's life. I would hate to see anyone take Omnisphericus's information and apply it to living people, especially where there is no agreement on proper calculations to use.

However, I also think it is fair game to question how reliable these measures really are. If I did wish to apply them, say, to dead celebrities, would it matter if Whitney Houston had been in the jet that crashed into the World Trade Center on 9/11? Because hundreds of people would have died with her-- almost simultaneously. Does it matter that average life expectancies today in most of the developed world skew the dates of death well into old age for most people?

Just because astrology's critics ask these questions should not deter people who love astrology from asking them, as well. A valid question is a valid question, regardless of who asks it.

Dr. Farr, I think you have a sensible approach, of suggesting that a practitioner such as yourself might discuss really critical times in a client's life, but doing so in a way that is helpful, rather than potentially harmful.

Omnisphericus, thank you for your thoughtful answers to my questions.

My problem here isn't with future predictions per se. I think we all engage in looking at transits and progressions. Nor is it with traditional astrology. If people wish to study traditional astrology, more power to them.

But I don't think we can shape evidence entirely to fit our theories. The individual you cite did not die at 10 months. This is self-evident. He may have had a near-death experience, but that is not the same as being dead. If calculations used to post-dict Whitney Houston's death should turn out not to work with other deaths, we have to reconsider one's methods.

My personal belief is that death is merely a kind of birth into another dimension. A death chart can often show the nature of the final illness or injury, therefore; but that is as far as I am prepared to take it.

Anyway, I've made my points. See you! Carry on!

dr. farr
02-16-2012, 04:48 AM
Again, my belief (and that of many others) is that death is NOT predicted nor predictable, but CRITICAL YEARS are and can be estimated, using a variety of delineative techniques; there is only one valid reason for such estimations, and that is so that something can be done to facilitate the individual in that critical year. Otherwise it is vain curiousity, which is never a good reason for anything!

JUPITERASC
02-16-2012, 07:34 AM
IMO we are all agreed that Omnisphericus thread is intended for the purpose of exploring the idea that the Hyleg and Alcocoden are an indication regarding the Vital Life Force of the native - meaning the potential Vital Life Force in the absence of any form of intervention:smile:
So, Hyleg and Alcocoden are showing the Vital Life Force of the native. They show how much years in life do you have according to the 'Esse' or the condition of your body and soul. With the modern medicine it seems out that this Esse is prolonged,

If the nativity dies from a serial killer, or a car accident H & A does not count, they do not show the accidents, they show the condition of the body and soul and accordingly how much years one have.
dr. farr has underlined the value of this approach of assessing potential Vital Life Force of the native for simply therapeutic purposes::smile:
However, I do think that many use this kind of thing for indications of potential critical years rather than fatalistic death clock predicting

-I KNOW that most reputable jyotish use "longevity" evaluations for just that purpose (indications of critical years), and in astro-therapeutics these "red flag" indications, derived from such methods, are of value in preventive therapeutics.

For example - and completely different from the technique described in this thread - use of simple symbolic progression (1 year = 1 degree, first mentioned in the 12th century by Ibn Ezra in his "Beginning of Wisdom") can be quite valuable in pointing out potentially critical times: use of the progressed SN to various natal points is one of these valuable methods:

in the case of Whitney Houston, her progressed SN conjuncted her ascending degree (8 Pisces) at her 48th birthday (natal SN @ 20 Capricorn): astro-therapeutically, this would have been a red flag that her 48th year was a definite critical period,

and preventive measures (low stress, much care about drugs and medication, tonification for her heart -which her natal indicated as a potential weak area in her health, etc) would have been prescribed for her by a knowledgeable practitioner;

the fact that classical hyleg/alcohedron analysis (which I myself do not use) also indicated her 48th year as possibly anaretic (as one of 3 such possible critical years using the analysis given in this thread) would have decidedly underscored the critical-ness of the 48th year and the importance of undertaking natural (non-drug) preventive and corrective measures, during that time...
IMO dr. farr has highlighted the importance of these techniques in SUPPORTING the native at critical times during the life

dr. farr thank you for encapsulating the historical rationale highlighting the unambiguous clarity of whole sign houses :smile:
TSMALL
In whole sign, Sun in same sign as ascendant and above the ascending degree CANNOT be cadent - it must be in the first house;

Liber Hermetis (earlier than the 6th century AD) made a big deal about this, and gave quite different indications for the Sun IN THE FIRST HOUSE, being above the ascending degree (therefore diurnal) vs being below the ascending degree (and therefore being nocturnal)

Only in Equal house and all the quadrant systems, can the diurnal Sun in the same sign as the ascending degree, become "cadent" by being placed (by these methods) in the 12th

...I consider this evidence of the unnatural ramifications which various theoretical house division systems, can produce...(my opinion)

Omnisphericus
02-16-2012, 12:08 PM
Omnisphericus, I didn't want to turn this into a rmc, but chart attached. It's a good question about Sun in 12th, mainly because I've never understood how the Sun, above the horizon in a day chart, in the same sign as the ASC could be cadent, but that's probably a topic for another thread. I see now that we should have looked at ASC all along, and I must have misunderstood the directions. :unsure:

waybread, I understand your concerns about predicting death, but I don't think that is what we are trying to learn here. I don't know if you read the thread that inspired this one (linked in the OP), but Omnisphericus and others were quite clear that this method is not about predicting death per se...

tsmall, I've calculated your chart in an Alcabitius house system in my Morinus traditional software. It is a house system which was used in great deal in medieval times, and many of leading trad. astrologers today are using it.
Lets try to see what we'll find here.
26929

Sun is indeed cadent, but Mercury and Jupiter are on the Ascendant. Mercury is within of 5 orbs and has strong influence over the ascendant.
Nor Sun nor Moon can be Hyleg. The first is in 12th the second in 6th.
Your syzygy prior the birth was New Moon, so the chart is Conjunctional.
We look at the Ascendant for potential Hyleg.
Ascendant is at 14 degrees Libra.
Domicil ruler = Venus 5 points
Exaltation = Saturn 4
Triplicity ruler = Saturn 3
Term ruler = Jupiter 2 points
Face ruler = Saturn = 1 point
Saturn takes the greatest dignity in this degree (it is the Almuten of the Ascendant).
In order to be Hyleg it must have an aspect, so lets look at this.
Saturn does not make an aspect. The 150 aspect was not familiar to the medievals.
Next we look at Venus as second with points.
She does not make an aspect either.
Next we look at Jupiter.
Jupiter on the Ascendant!
So Jupiter is the Almuten of the Hyleg Ascendant!

tsmall
02-16-2012, 01:41 PM
tsmall, I've calculated your chart in an Alcabitius house system in my Morinus traditional software. It is a house system which was used in great deal in medieval times, and many of leading trad. astrologers today are using it.
Lets try to see what we'll find here.
26929

Sun is indeed cadent, but Mercury and Jupiter are on the Ascendant. Mercury is within of 5 orbs and has strong influence over the ascendant.
Nor Sun nor Moon can be Hyleg. The first is in 12th the second in 6th.
Your syzygy prior the birth was New Moon, so the chart is Conjunctional.
We look at the Ascendant for potential Hyleg.
Ascendant is at 14 degrees Libra.
Domicil ruler = Venus 5 points
Exaltation = Saturn 4
Triplicity ruler = Saturn 3
Term ruler = Jupiter 2 points
Face ruler = Saturn = 1 point
Saturn takes the greatest dignity in this degree (it is the Almuten of the Ascendant).
In order to be Hyleg it must have an aspect, so lets look at this.
Saturn does not make an aspect. The 150 aspect was not familiar to the medievals.
Next we look at Venus as second with points.
She does not make an aspect either.
Next we look at Jupiter.
Jupiter on the Ascendant!
So Jupiter is the Almuten of the Hyleg Ascendant!

First, thank you for taking the time to explain this in a way that is so easy to understand! (And Saturn as Almuten of the ASC was a light bulb moment for this student! :smile:)

So ASC is Hyleg, and Jupiter is Alcocoden. What are the criteria for determining which years to take? In Whitney's chart, Mars is in detriment and peregrine, yet angular. We got to take the middle years to start. In this chart, Jupiter is angular and in his own term. Do we get to take the major years?

For the adding and subtracting of years based on aspects, Mars' square to Libra is out of orb for Jupiter, so would not be considered? Saturn makes no aspect as previously shown, and neither does Venus. Mercury is conjunct, but I don't know if it's considered benenfic or malefic in this chart. He's above the ASC but below the Sun in a day chart. Would he be considered? I am also guessing that we don't look at the luminaries for adding and subtracting?

Omnisphericus
02-16-2012, 02:35 PM
So ASC is Hyleg, and Jupiter is Alcocoden. What are the criteria for determining which years to take? In Whitney's chart, Mars is in detriment and peregrine, yet angular. We got to take the middle years to start. In this chart, Jupiter is angular and in his own term. Do we get to take the major years?

Yes I would take Jupiter's major years because it is angular (on AC almost in exact degree) and in its own terms.
I don't know about Jupiter being Under the Sun's Beams.

For the adding and subtracting of years based on aspects, Mars' square to Libra is out of orb for Jupiter, so would not be considered? Saturn makes no aspect as previously shown, and neither does Venus. Mercury is conjunct, but I don't know if it's considered benenfic or malefic in this chart. He's above the ASC but below the Sun in a day chart. Would he be considered? I am also guessing that we don't look at the luminaries for adding and subtracting?
Even if they add or subtract, they are here out of orb.
So, in my opinion there is no adding nor subtraction.

Omnisphericus
02-16-2012, 03:26 PM
Ok, so lets now analyze certain charts using only Bonnati's method for calculating the H & A.
I would take the chart of Cary Grant, the famous actor.
I don't know the year he died, I can see that he is born 1904 and assume that he is death by now.
I will try to give my opinion on his H & A., will leave you to give your judgments and in the end we will see the year of his death on Wikipedia.

Here's Bonatti's method for calculating the Hyleg:

Bonatti uses Sun, Moon, PoF, Asc and SAN as potential hylegs.

General Rule: the hyleg must be aspected by at least one of its rulers

In a day chart, the potential hyleg is
1. Sun if in 1st, 11th or 10th
2. Sun in 7th, 8th, or 9th if it is in a masculine sign
3. Moon if in an angle or succedent house and in a feminine sign
4. Part of Fortune if chart is preventional and it is in a hylegical place or conjunct the
Asc.
5. Asc if chart is conjunctional and if it is aspected by any of it’s rulers or the Moon
6. SAN

By night, you start with the Moon instead of the Sun; same rules apply.

Bonatti’s comments on looking for the hyleg:
1. Ptolemy rejected an 8th house hyleg
2. Dorotheus rejected an 8th or 7th house Sun as hyleg unless it was in a
masculine sign in a day chart; he allowed it as hyleg in a nocturnal chart if it was in the 1st or 2nd house in a feminine sign
3. Moon angular or succedent is a fit hyleg regardless of sign although it is better if it is in a feminine sign in a woman’s chart or a masculine sign in a man’s chart
4. Dorotheus rejected a 9th House Moon as hyleg; Ptolemy accepted her if she was in the 9th in a feminine sign
5. SAN acceptable if the Sun, Moon, Asc ruler or any of the benefics are angular or
succedent and aspect the SAN.
(Taken from the yahoo group Angelicus Merlin).

Bonatti on finding the Alcocoden:



Bonatti

Examine the dispositors of the Hyleg to see which one is in aspect to the Hyleg. If more than one is in aspect, take the one which “is closer to degree by aspect or by conjunction.
If they all “aspect equally” then
a) take the one which has the most dignities in the place of the Hyleg, or, if they
have equal dignities,
b) take the one which is angular or succedent, or, if they are all angular or
succedent,
c) take the one closest to its cusp, or, if they are still equal,
d) take the one who is strongest in its own place i.e. having the most essential
dignity in its own place, or, if they are still equal
e) take the one closest to the Sun without being combust
If any planet is 3º before or 5º after either the Asc or MC, “make him a participator with
the Hyleg” whether or not he has dignity there (in the place of the Hyleg?) and if he does
have dignity there he will be stronger than another planet not with the Asc or MC. If the
planet does not have dignity, his participation will be weaker.
If the Alcochoden is in the Asc or 10th, in Haym, in his own dignities gives his major
years.
If succedent, oriental (esp. in the 11th), in any of his own dignities and free from
impediments, gives his middle years.
If cadent under the same conditions, he gives his minor years but if impeded by being
retro or in his detriment or fall, or peregrine, or besieged by malefics, he will give his
minor years as months and minor months as weeks but if he also combust, he will give
his minor years and months as hours or, at the most, days.
If a benefic, strong, fortunate and received, aspects by conjunction, sextile or trine it
will add its own minor years plus its middle years as months. If he does not receive the
Alcochoden, or the aspect is a square or opposition20, he will give his minor years plus
the major years as days. But if the fortune is impeded it will only add its minor years as
months.

If the aspecting planet is a malefic conjunct, square or opposed to the Alcochoden,
subtract the malefics minor years. But, if the malefic is in his own dignities, he will only
subtract 1/3 of his minor years.
Mercury adds his minor years if he is with fortunes; subtracts them if he is with malefics.
Bonatti subtracts ¼ of the Alcochoden’s years if it is within 12º of the SN and says his
experience does not support the addition of ¼ years if it is within 12º of the NN.


Lets now examine the Cary Grant's chart with all these rules in mind:
26930

It is a night chart (Sun bellow the horizon). Moon in 3rd in masculine sign (Aquarius).
Sun is also in cadent 3rd house, so also not acceptable.
The Chart is Conjunctional (New Moon prior the birth) so we look at the Ascendant for potential Hyleg.
Ascendant is at 28 Libra. (Bonatti uses Ptolomeic terms and triplicities so we will follow him here).
Domicile ruler Venus = 5 points (no aspect)
Exaltation ruler Saturn = 4 points (no aspect)
Triplicity ruler Mercury = 3 points (aspect with square)
Term ruler Mars = 2 points (aspect with partile trine)
Face ruler Jupiter = 1 point (no aspect)
Now we need to choose between Mercury and Mars.

Bonatti says:
Examine the dispositors of the Hyleg to see which one is in aspect to the Hyleg. If more
than one is in aspect, take the one which “is closer to degree by aspect or by conjunction”

So we will take Mars because it is partile trine.

So we have Ascendant as Hyleg and Mars as Alcocoden.

Mars as Alcocoden has the following years:
Minor years: 15
Middle years: 40.5
Major years: 66

Mars in its own terms in angular house it will give its major years: 66.

Mars is alone there, does not have an aspect nor from benefic nor from malefic. So it will give its years (66) without adding or subtraction.
--------
Ok, I've seen his year of death after I've calculated this and I can see that I'm wrong. But will not tell the year of death yet, in order to leave you to try to give your own judgment. :)

tsmall
02-16-2012, 04:02 PM
I have a question about the Moon in this chart. Yes, it is in cadent house, but it is in angular sign (4th from the ASC)

3. Moon angular or succedent is a fit hyleg regardless of sign although it is better if it is in a feminine sign in a woman’s chart or a masculine sign in a man’s chart


Would it be possible to try with Moon as Hyleg?

Omnisphericus
02-16-2012, 04:26 PM
I have a question about the Moon in this chart. Yes, it is in cadent house, but it is in angular sign (4th from the ASC)



Would it be possible to try with Moon as Hyleg?

Yes, I thought of that. Though its not in angular sign but in succedent (Libra angular, scorpio succedent, sag cadent, capricorn angular, aquarius succedent).
I've discarded the Moon because some authors says that if the Moon is under the Sun Beams (17 degrees orb) then it can not be Hyleg. But it seems out that Bonatti does not use that rule so we can follow him here and try with the Moon being Hyleg.
Lets try.

Moon at 0 degrees Aquarius in 4th (near the 4th house cusp) and succedent by sign.
Saturn = 5 points
no exaltation here
Mercury = 3 points
Saturn = 2
Venus = 1

Saturn is the Almuten of the Moon. Lets see if he had an aspect to the Moon.
He is making 9 degrees conjunction with the Moon.
Lets see the Moiety of these two.
Moons orb is 12 degrees, Saturn's 10 = 22 degrees
Half of 22 is 11, so the moiety of this aspect between these two is 11 degrees.
Saturn is making a conjunction to the Moon. So, he is Moon's Almuten and Alcocoden as well.
Moon Hyleg, Saturn Alcocoden.

Saturn in domicile and angular it would give its major years (57).
It receives Sextile from Venus (benefic) in succedent house with no dignity in that place.
So we will add her minor years (8) and middle as months (45)
57 years + 8 years + 45 months (3 years and 9 months) = 68 years and 9 months.

We are still far away from the actual death of Cary Grant.

Robert Zoller says: "if you are one year around the Alcocoden's given years, you have found the Alcocoden" (Paraphrase).

tsmall
02-16-2012, 04:35 PM
Well, I am glad to see that at least my thought process was right, as my notes matched your post exactly. I even have my book open to see if the Saturn Moon conjunction is within a valid orb. I have to admit that after I made my calculations I peeked. :whistling: 68 years 9 months is not even close.

Robert Zoller says: "if you are one year around the Alcocoden's given years, you have found the Alcocoden" (Paraphrase).

Is it possible to work backwards?

Omnisphericus
02-16-2012, 04:38 PM
Well, I am glad to see that at least my thought process was right, as my notes matched your post exactly. I even have my book open to see if the Saturn Moon conjunction is within a valid orb. I have to admit that after I made my calculations I peeked. :whistling: 68 years 9 months is not even close.



Is it possible to work backwards?

I don't understand the question :)

JUPITERASC
02-16-2012, 04:39 PM
We are still far away from the actual death of Cary Grant.

Robert Zoller says: "if you are one year around the Alcocoden's given years, you have found the Alcocoden" (Paraphrase) .
1904? How accurate is the data for Cary Grant's natal chart? If the Ascendant is inaccurate then how can the "Vital Life Force" of the native be accurately assessed? Time of occurrence of actual death is useful in rectifying the natal ascendant:smile:

Omnisphericus
02-16-2012, 04:43 PM
1904? How accurate is the data for Cary Grant's natal chart? If the Ascendant is inaccurate then how can the "Vital Life Force" of the native be accurately assessed? Time of occurrence of actual death is useful in rectifying the natal ascendant:smile:

Yes, I agree. If we do not find the Alcocoden we can try to rectify the chart, but first will try the same method with other person's charts, maybe Bonatti's method does not give results after all and we can try the method of Abu'Ali next.
Yes, the actual time of birth in those times was not so precise as today, I think..

JUPITERASC
02-16-2012, 04:51 PM
Yes, I agree. If we do not find the Alcocoden we can try to rectify the chart, but first will try the same method with other person's charts, maybe Bonatti's method does not give results after all and we can try the method of Abu'Ali next.
Yes, the actual time of birth in those times was not so precise as today, I think..
OK Omnisphericus - Abu'Ali is next candidate ! :smile:

Omnisphericus
02-16-2012, 07:23 PM
I think if we allow the whole sign aspect by Venus to the first option Alcocoden Mars, then we would have 11 years and 9 months plus to the Mars's 66. But this is still off with around 5 years, Cary Grant lived around 82 years and 10 months, and we have the number of 77 and 9 months.
He died out from a heart-attack.
But 5 years is not big difference. As we said in our earlier conversation, the modern day medicine and the way we live in the modern world is distinguished from the medieval. So it seems out that C.G lived a few years more than his Alcocoden shows.

I will look now for some other celebrity to continue our exercising but in meanwhile if someone have something to add to the chart examination of C.G. its free to add.

tsmall
02-16-2012, 07:24 PM
I don't understand the question :)

I apologize. What I meant was based on the Robert Zoller quote, Venus must be Alcocoden. She gives 82 years. So I though perhaps by assuming Venus, we could then look for candidates for the Hyleg.

The Cary Grant chart has a B rating. I think JUPITERASC is correct about the birth time being off. Looking at the aspects, Venus has to be Alcocoden. She gives 82 years, and the aspects mean no adding or subtracting. Taking any other planet, based on the aspects, doesn't get us close to the proper number of years. Moving the birth time back by one hour changes the ASC to 17* Libra, sextile Venus. So ASC as Hyleg, and Venus as Alcocoden?

Omnisphericus, what if we look at AA rated charts, just so we can be sure we are working with correct birth times?

DreamingTheSeas
02-16-2012, 08:39 PM
This is Princess Diana's chart. In whole house her Asc is the Hyleg (i think). Alcocoden is Jupiter ( i think again). Any thoughts?

Omnisphericus
02-16-2012, 08:45 PM
I apologize. What I meant was based on the Robert Zoller quote, Venus must be Alcocoden. She gives 82 years. So I though perhaps by assuming Venus, we could then look for candidates for the Hyleg.

The Cary Grant chart has a B rating. I think JUPITERASC is correct about the birth time being off. Looking at the aspects, Venus has to be Alcocoden. She gives 82 years, and the aspects mean no adding or subtracting. Taking any other planet, based on the aspects, doesn't get us close to the proper number of years. Moving the birth time back by one hour changes the ASC to 17* Libra, sextile Venus. So ASC as Hyleg, and Venus as Alcocoden?

Omnisphericus, what if we look at AA rated charts, just so we can be sure we are working with correct birth times?

tsmall, I think you are right! Your rectification with Venus aspecting the Asc is great! Yes we should look at the AA charts.
I wanted to post the chart of Janis Joplin but lets first see Lady Diana's chart.

sandstone
02-16-2012, 09:13 PM
princess diana - rated A from memory..

whitney houston - rated AA from birth cert.
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Houston,_Whitney

Omnisphericus
02-16-2012, 09:20 PM
princess diana - rated A from memory..

whitney houston - rated AA from birth cert.
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Houston,_Whitney

I know that Robert Zoller has rectified Lady Diana's chart. But I do not have that chart.

Omnisphericus
02-17-2012, 01:34 AM
This is Princess Diana's chart. In whole house her Asc is the Hyleg (i think). Alcocoden is Jupiter ( i think again). Any thoughts?

I will try to give a shoot, even though I've never used WH for determining the H & A.

Day chart.
Sun in 8th but in feminine sign, it can not be Hyleg.
Moon in cadent house and in masculine sign, it can not be Hyleg.
Chart is Preventional, PoF (in your chart it is missing) is in 3Leo in 9th house.
Dispositors of the degree of PoF:
Sun (domicile and triplicity) and Saturn (term and face).
PoF is aspecting neither of both.

Now we look at the Syzygy degree.
It is a day chart so we look for the last new moon degree.
The last new moon lunation occurs on 21 Gemini.
The Almuten of that degree are Mercury and Saturn (they both hold 5 points).
Because Mercury is combust and in 8th I would take Saturn in 2nd being the Hyleg, though he is Retrograde but in its own sign.

So, Saturn at 27 Capricorn (in 2nd house) is Hyleg.
Venus, the triplicity ruler is Alcocoden because it is the only dispositor of Saturn which makes an aspect with him.

Venus cadent in 6th house but in its own sign would give her middle years (45).
But this is far from the real number. As I said I've never use this technique with whole sign houses.

Culpeper
02-17-2012, 05:29 AM
Omnisphericus:

After looking at my notes on this subject, I see that I decided on either the Part of Fortune or Part of Hyleg (asc + Moon - PreNatal Lunation) for use as hyleg in my chart. Both are close together in the first house. Mercury then has the most essential dignity, and it is in the 10th house. The greater years apply and this would be 76 years. The Sun in my chart is conjunct fixed star Scheat. I think the combination could be called anareta. Certainly not hyleg.

My chart can be found here: http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/album.php?albumid=25&pictureid=4321

I worked out the hyleg and alcocoden for various celebrities, politicians, ordinary people and royalty. There was a rather close correlation with the alcocoden years and the actual length of life. Empirical experimentation indicates that the hyleg can be in the eighth house. The hyleg and alcocoden need not aspect or behold each other at least for politicians and royalty.

The following two examples died violent deaths:

John F. Kennedy, 29 May 1917, 15:00, Brookline, Massachusetts. In Kennedy's chart the Sun is hyleg and in the 9th house in at 7 degrees Gemini. Mercury is alcocoden in the 8th house. Mercury is close between Jupiter and Mars. The Mercury years for a succeedant house is 48. Add the least years of Jupiter 12 and it becomes 60, and subtract the least years of Mars 15 and it becomes 45. JFK was 46 when he died.

Princess Diana of Wales, 1 July 1961, 19:45, Sandringham, England. Diana's Sun is in the 8th house at at 9 degrees Cancer. I have used it for the hyleg. The Moon has the most essential dignity and is in the 3rd house with Jupiter. The least years of the Moon are 25. Add the least years of Jupiter 12 and it becomes 37 for total years. Diana was 36 when she died.

Whole Sign Houses used.

JUPITERASC
02-17-2012, 05:36 AM
Omnisphericus, some years ago I encountered an interesting method which involves a little maths, described as "Ptolemy's Method" by Astrologer Alessandro Barone:smile:


Ptolemy's method

When the apheta or Hyleg is occidental, the anaretic point is the western horizon i.e. : the man/woman dies when his/her apheta sets.

After computing the apheta's setting time, correct it by adding or subtracting the horary parts of the aspects the apheta encounters during its journey towards its setting.

The horary parts are, in modern terms, the meridian distance of the aspecting planet/s divided by its semiarc. These horary parts are subtracted from the years of the Hyleg in full, if the aspecting planet is on the ascendant, and proportionally decreased the closer it gets to the descendant.

Princess Diana's case illustrated the method:

Hyleg setting time +42d25m
Corrections
opp Saturn -15d43m
sext Mars -06d58m
sext Venus +01d26m
conj Mercury +01d33m
conj Sun +02d22m
trine Moon +11d27m
Total 36d32m

The time of death should then be 36.53 years (according to Ptolemy)

Interesting that the result is consistent with the date of the event, although if the ascendant were rectified by no more than a couple of minutes, it would have given the exact date. :smile:

JUPITERASC
02-17-2012, 06:23 AM
I am aware however that we are discussing the Hyleg and Alcocoden so let us consider Alessandro Barone describing Princess Diana's Hyleg and Alcocoden :smile:
tsmall, I think you are right! Your rectification with Venus aspecting the Asc is great! Yes we should look at the AA charts.
I wanted to post the chart of Janis Joplin but lets first see Lady Diana's chart.

Princess Diana's Hyleg and Alcocoden determination

Sun in feminine sign and feminine quadrant: Moon below horizon, both discarded.

Lot of Fortune is Hyleg - Venus same rising time/declination - Ptolemy describes this situation as "equivalent signs", where length of day/night are equal . Their longitudinal difference from the solstice lies exactly in the same degree: Venus 35°36' and Hyleg 35°2'

This condition overcomes all others for eligibility as Alchochoden.
Venus is Alchochoden.

Venus is not cadent, so gives maximum years = 82.

These years must be diminished by 1/5 for any of the following 5 conditions, if missing:

House: Venus not cadent.
Dignity: Venus in domicile .
Oriental to the Sun : Venus oriental
direct in motion: Venus direct
in Haiz: Venus is not, being below the horizon.

Venus offers 82*4/5 = 65.6 years. BUT Venus afflicted by trine Saturn, from sign of short ascension, cutting Venus' years by the minor years of Saturn, i.e. 30.


65.6 - 30 = 35.6 = age Alchochoden gives for Princess Diana's death.

Very close: but we currently are unable to evaluate quantitatively:

1. Additional time offered by even a negative aspect with a benefic planet - square with the Moon in this case: measured in months or days, but no reliable tradition re: how many months or days granted.

2. Nodes influence: some say they add or diminish, others say they neither add nor diminish & in this case Venus is in aspect with the Nodes. So, due to these uncertainties, the result of this traditional method is reasonable.:smile:

Kaiousei no Senshi
02-17-2012, 06:25 AM
I have an interesting note to share. I've sort of been a bad kid and have been going through the charts of people I know to calculate their hylegs and alcocodens. I have one friend who is 24 whose alcocoden gives her roughly 22 years. She's obviously alive and well, but the interesting thing is last year she was sent to the ER for chest pains and was diagnosed with heart palpitations, she's on medicine for it now.

DreamingTheSeas
02-17-2012, 08:21 AM
So the system could work for people who die in accidents or homicides. But we need more examples to confirm how Hyleg and Alcoccoden work.

JUPITERASC, can you please shows as the method you use? I mean the math.

Jupiter1st
02-17-2012, 11:28 AM
hi Omnisphericus and others...I've been quite concerned about my longevity. I found 38-42 for myself. Depending On Mercury's situation, it can change. Can I ask you guys to analyze my longevity. I know many people don't like to do that but I've already done it for myself. I found my ascendant as hyleg and Mars as alcocoden. What do you guys think?

Omnisphericus
02-17-2012, 05:08 PM
Omnisphericus:

After looking at my notes on this subject, I see that I decided on either the Part of Fortune or Part of Hyleg (asc + Moon - PreNatal Lunation) for use as hyleg in my chart. Both are close together in the first house. Mercury then has the most essential dignity, and it is in the 10th house. The greater years apply and this would be 76 years. The Sun in my chart is conjunct fixed star Scheat. I think the combination could be called anareta. Certainly not hyleg.

My chart can be found here: http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/album.php?albumid=25&pictureid=4321

I worked out the hyleg and alcocoden for various celebrities, politicians, ordinary people and royalty. There was a rather close correlation with the alcocoden years and the actual length of life. Empirical experimentation indicates that the hyleg can be in the eighth house. The hyleg and alcocoden need not aspect or behold each other at least for politicians and royalty.

The following two examples died violent deaths:

John F. Kennedy, 29 May 1917, 15:00, Brookline, Massachusetts. In Kennedy's chart the Sun is hyleg and in the 9th house in at 7 degrees Gemini. Mercury is alcocoden in the 8th house. Mercury is close between Jupiter and Mars. The Mercury years for a succeedant house is 48. Add the least years of Jupiter 12 and it becomes 60, and subtract the least years of Mars 15 and it becomes 45. JFK was 46 when he died.

Princess Diana of Wales, 1 July 1961, 19:45, Sandringham, England. Diana's Sun is in the 8th house at at 9 degrees Cancer. I have used it for the hyleg. The Moon has the most essential dignity and is in the 3rd house with Jupiter. The least years of the Moon are 25. Add the least years of Jupiter 12 and it becomes 37 for total years. Diana was 36 when she died.

Whole Sign Houses used.

Hi Culpeper,
Your work though out of tradition is very impressive. It seems that your method of not (necessarily) having aspect between H & A obviously works. Many of the medieval authors does not accept Sun as Hyleg in 8th, and those who are accepting it, are accepting the Sun in 8th only if in masculine sign (while Diana's Sun is in feminine sign).

Why did you eliminate the Moon as your Hyleg?

Omnisphericus
02-17-2012, 05:19 PM
So the system could work for people who die in accidents or homicides. But we need more examples to confirm how Hyleg and Alcoccoden work.

JUPITERASC, can you please shows as the method you use? I mean the math.

Yes, JupiterAsc it would be great to give more insights on your math, I'm too a little bit confused. Because Venus IS cadent. Can you give more details of your method of calculation?
I suppose you are talking about the Right and Oblique Ascension?!

Omnisphericus
02-17-2012, 05:20 PM
I have an interesting note to share. I've sort of been a bad kid and have been going through the charts of people I know to calculate their hylegs and alcocodens. I have one friend who is 24 whose alcocoden gives her roughly 22 years. She's obviously alive and well, but the interesting thing is last year she was sent to the ER for chest pains and was diagnosed with heart palpitations, she's on medicine for it now.

This is another example how the modern medicine is giving years to the length of life of men.

Omnisphericus
02-17-2012, 05:21 PM
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3549&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&sid=ceace887ec84462e07a62f26c128046c

Here's an interesting forum discussion about the adding/subtracting according to Ptolomy.
I suppose that this is the method of which JupiterAsc was talking.

DreamingTheSeas
02-17-2012, 05:53 PM
Omnisphericus,

take a look here http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36454

Omnisphericus
02-17-2012, 07:01 PM
Omnisphericus,

take a look here http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36454

Thank you DreamingTheSeas, I'm reading it at the moment.
It is very informative but in the same time very confusing because it seems out that there are so many different interpretations of Ptolomy and his work.
I'm trying to follow the calculations which Bob makes about finding the direction between the Hyleg and Dc. Bob says that Ptolomy didn't use Alcocoden. I've not read Ptolomy but the author on the Angelicus Merlin group who has made a summary on H & A from different authors and which I'm quoting often here on this thread is saying this (under the section of finding the Alcocoden according to Ptolomy):

Ptolemy
Take the planet that has the most dignities in the place of the Hyleg.
His method of ascertaining the number of years given is based on directing the
Alcochoden to the degrees of the malefics. The method requires a study book of its own.
He does, however, make an interesting comment:

“For in general we must not admit any planet, either to destroy or to aid,
that is under the rays of the Sun, except that when the Moon is prorogator
the place of the Sun itself is destructive when it is changed about by the
presence of a maleficent planet and is not released by any of the
beneficent ones.”

Which seems to imply that an aspecting planet which is USB neither adds nor subtracts
years and that if the Sun is with or aspected by a malefic and not aspected by a benefic
nor in the terms of a benefic it becomes malefic.

Jupiter1st
02-17-2012, 08:13 PM
hi Omnisphericus. I've been quite concerned about my longevity. I found 38-42 for myself. Can you view my chart and tell me which planets you think are hyleg and alcocoden I found my ascendant as hyleg and Mars as alcocoden. What do you think?

Omnisphericus
02-17-2012, 08:54 PM
hi Omnisphericus. I've been quite concerned about my longevity. I found 38-42 for myself. Can you view my chart and tell me which planets you think are hyleg and alcocoden I found my ascendant as hyleg and Mars as alcocoden. What do you think?

Maybe you can take Jupiter in 1st as Alcocoden of the Asc.
It is angular and in exaltation, so it can give its major years.

Don't panic about the years you have calculate. As you can see we empirically try to investigate what from the older texts is functioning and what is not functioning. I would suggest to you to take these judgments as play and do not take it seriously, it is not a matter of proven fact and non-changeability at this point. We are still searching for the most accurate method, till then be relaxed.

Omnisphericus
02-17-2012, 10:22 PM
Because the discussion led to Ptomlomy's method maybe its time to give attention to this method of finding the H & A.
It seems out that his method is more complicated than the rest.

I will first quote some summaries of the method of Ptolomy and than we can talk about it as well about the method of determining the length of life through the directions of the Hyleg.

Ptolemy Book III, Chapter 10

Gives five hylegical places:
1. MC
2. 1st (5 deg before Asc and 25 degrees below)
3. 11th
4. 7th
5. 9th
The regions of greatest importance are the Sun, Moon, Asc, PoF and their rulers.

In a day chart, examine

Sun
Moon
Almuten of the Sun, new Moon prior to birth, Ascendant
Ascendant

In a night chart, examine

Moon
Sun
Almuten of Moon, full moon prior to birth, Part of Fortune
if the chart is conjunctional, the Asc, otherwise the Part of Fortune
[Note that if a day chart is preventional you still look for the last conjunction prior to the
birth; if the night chart is conjunctional you look to the last full moon.]
If both the luminaries or sect rulers are in hylegical places, take the one that is in the
place of greatest authority; the almuten is preferred only when it is in a position of
greater authority and has dignity with both the lights (Sun and Moon).



Here's another summary of the method of Ptolomy:
(From this site: http://www.greekmedicine.net/medical_astrology/Longevity_and_the_Hyleg.html)

[B]Ptolemy's Method for Determining the Hyleg

Claudius Ptolemy, generally regarded as being the father of Western astrrology, states in his Tetrabiblios that the Hyleg is the planet with the greatest essential dignity in five important chart positions:
1) The degree of the Sun
2) The degree of the Moon
3) The degree of the Ascendant
4) The Part of Fortune
5) The Prenatal Syzygy - the degree of the New Moon or Full Moon before birth (New Moon if the natal Moon is waxing, and Full Moon if the natal Moon is waning).
When it comes to matters of essential planetary dignities, classical astrologers like Ptolemy had a much more complex and involved system for reckoning them than modern astrology. In addition to the modern dignities of rulership and exaltation, the ancients also figured in the triplicity rulers as well as the lords of the terms and faces.
In addition, they had a point system for tallying up or measuring the relative strength or debility of a planet, based on its essential dignities and debilities. Five points was given for a planet being the domicile ruler, four points for it being in exaltation, three points for it being the triplicity ruler, two points for being the term ruler, and one point for being the face ruler. The planet with the greatest essential dignity is called the Almuten.
With Ptolemy's method the Hyleg, being the planet with the greatest essential dignity over the above five key positions in the natal horoscope, functions like a Grand Almuten of the entire chart. To score and determine exactly what this Grand Almuten is, put the symbols for the seven classical planets across the top of the page. Under each, write down in a vertical column all the points each planet receives regarding each of the above five positions. At the end, tally up the total number of points for each planet; the planet with the highest score or total overall wins.
As a reference chart for scoring, especially regarding the more obscure classical dignities, I provide you with the following link. It's a chart of the essential planetary dignities according to Ptolemy, with an explanatory article of several pages that follows it:
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig2.html
One additional qualification remains: the planet must also be in a Hylegaical house. For purposes of selecting the Hyleg, Ptolemy considered the first five degrees above the horizon to be functionally part of the First House; a First House planet, to be Hyleg, must also be in the same sign as the Ascendant degree. If no planet can qualify to be the Hyleg, then the Ascendant itself becomes the Hyleg.
Once the Hyleg has been determined, it is analyzed according to its various accidental dignities to determine the native's potential for health and longevity. The point system for scoring these accidental dignities and debilities is also in the the Skyscript article that accompanies the chart on the above link. Accidental dignities add to the Hyleg's potential for health and vitality, whereas accidental debilities detract from it.
The 17th century English astrologer William Lilly also had his method for determining the Hyleg. It can also be found in the above Skyscript article.

Omnisphericus
02-18-2012, 12:25 AM
In his book Tetrabiblos in chapter 10 (book III) called "Of Length of Life" Ptolomy says:

In the first place we must consider those places prorogative (see definitions bellow) in which by all means the planet must be that is to receive the lordship of the prorogation; namely, the twelfth part of the zodiac surrounding the horoscope, from 5° ahove the actual horizon up to the 25° that remains, which is rising in succession to the horizon; the part sextile dexter to these thirty degrees, called the House of the Good Daemon; the part in quartile, the mid-heaven; the part in trine, called the House of the God; and the part opposite, the Occident.



Because the whole chapter is about 6 pages I decided to put it in a pdf file. You can download it from here:
http://uploading.com/files/9ma36fd3/10.%2BOf%2BLength%2Bof%2BLife.pdf/

I suggest all who are interested to study this chapter so we can fully investigate the Ptolomy's method of calculating and directing the Hyleg.


-----------------------------
Definition of Prorogator
A term used by Ptolemy in connection with a method of direction, effected by proportion of horary times - semi-arcs. One must distinguish between the Prorogator, the body directed and the Prorogation or method by which it is directed. The Prorogator is the Apheta or Life Giver, in contrast to the Anareta. By day and in aphetical places, the Sun holds the position of Prorogator; by night the Moon. (v. "Hyleg.")

sandstone
02-18-2012, 12:44 AM
jupiter1st, my software gives your sun as the hyleg in 2 of the 3 systems for getting it which includes ptolemys system.. the other 1 of the 3 gives part of fortune for the hyleg. i don't know the basis for solar fire software arriving at these conclusions.. maybe that will give you a few more years...

Omnisphericus
02-18-2012, 12:48 AM
jupiter1st, my software gives your sun as the hyleg in 2 of the 3 systems for getting it which includes ptolemys system.. the other 1 of the 3 gives part of fortune for the hyleg. i don't know the basis for solar fire software arriving at these conclusions.. maybe that will give you a few more years...

sandstone, where in Solar Fire is the option for calculating the Hyleg?

sandstone
02-18-2012, 12:53 AM
i have version 7.3.1 you might not get it in the earlier versions.. -> reports-> tabulations->further dignities.. follow that path if you have a version close to 7.3.1

tsmall
02-18-2012, 01:05 AM
jupiter1st, my software gives your sun as the hyleg in 2 of the 3 systems for getting it which includes ptolemys system.. the other 1 of the 3 gives part of fortune for the hyleg. i don't know the basis for solar fire software arriving at these conclusions.. maybe that will give you a few more years...

Sun or PoF, doesn't that make Jupiter Alcocoden?

Jupiter1st, I would caution you not to place too much importance on anything related to longevity that you may or may not see in your chart, for all the reasons everyone has already mentioned on this thread. No one can predict length of life. Period. Going back and looking at the charts of the deceased is an interesting intellectual exercise, but keep in mind that when we are working with several methods proposed by different astrologers, and an established TOD, it is easy to "make" the method fit.

Jupiter1st
02-18-2012, 01:18 AM
Thanks for your help guys but I'd like to know which planets you think are hyleg and alcocoden in my chart. Since my Sun is unaspected , I think it may be the ascendant. Mars trines it as the triplicity ruler. So he can be alcocoden. Mars is angular and he can give 66 years. South node conjunction will subtract 16 years which makes 50. Mercury is highly detriment. It will at least subtract 20 years. It then makes 30. Jupiter trine will add 12. It makes roughly 42. Mercury can subtract his middle years as months, yet Jupiter can add his middle years as months as well. So they may compansate each other. Yet, I'm not so sure.

Sandstone what do you mean by saying "maybe that will give you a few more years... " Part of fortune gives 120 years because he produces Sun as alcocoden. Sun is in Aries in the 10th and doesn't have a major aspect. 120 years don't make sense.

Omnisphericus
02-18-2012, 01:25 AM
i have version 7.3.1 you might not get it in the earlier versions.. -> reports-> tabulations->further dignities.. follow that path if you have a version close to 7.3.1

Thank you! I have version 7.0.6, it is the same procedure as you've mentioned.
Well, I'm not sure about the validity of this calculation. I think that when using Bonatti's calculation does not count the 'must have an aspect' rule, or maybe uses the WSH aspects.

sandstone
02-18-2012, 01:41 AM
jupiter1st, i was only saying that based on you comment "I found 38-42 for myself."

Omnisphericus - you're welcome.. up do you want you want to do with it..

JUPITERASC
02-18-2012, 02:58 AM
Sandstone what do you mean by saying "maybe that will give you a few more years... " Part of fortune gives 120 years because he produces Sun as alcocoden. Sun is in Aries in the 10th and doesn't have a major aspect. 120 years don't make sense.
Omnisphericus - Skyscript has these interesting comments on the issue :smile:

QUOTE CLELIA ROMANO

"I do not agree that the Sun must to be discarded because it is impossible to live 120 years.
If you do not believe in the rules, why to study them?

Masha´allah says that a wise man can not ask questions in his own behalf: now I can see how right he was"

QUOTE PETR RESPONSE TO CLELIA'S COMMENT

"I agree fully.

jupiter1st We discussed the question of length of life in April. Your life potential (which gives alcocoden) is high. Better to be interested in life than death"
source: http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6459&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Omnisphericus
02-18-2012, 05:16 PM
Clelia Romano in her article 'Longevity' says:

"The most important differences between Ptolomy's and Medieval-Arabic methods to find a releaser are:

1- Arab-Medieval astrology accepted hyleg under the earth.

2- In medieval astrology the hyleg was not accepted if one of its rulers did not aspect it."

DreamingTheSeas
02-18-2012, 11:20 PM
So according to Ptolemy in Diana's chart Venus in 6th house cannot be Hyleg! And the Hyleg is Ascendant??

JUPITERASC
02-18-2012, 11:56 PM
So according to Ptolemy in Diana's chart Venus in 6th house cannot be Hyleg! And the Hyleg is Ascendant??
Venus is 5th house Placidus :smile:

Today it is common knowledge that much of Tetrabiblos was collected from earlier sources; Ptolemy's achievement was ordering material systematically, showing how the subject could, he thought, be rationalized. Explanations are provided for astrological effects of planets, based upon effects of heating, cooling, moistening, and drying. Ptolemy thought that astrology was like medicine, that is conjectural, because variable factors such as race, country, and upbringing of a person affects an individual's personality as much if not more than the positions of the Sun, Moon, and planets at the precise moment of their birth, so Ptolemy saw astrology as something to be used in life but in no way relied on entirely http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemy (scroll down for paragraph heading "Astrology")

sandstone
02-19-2012, 12:33 AM
if diana's memory is out - it could be in a few different houses too fwiw..

JUPITERASC
02-19-2012, 02:47 AM
“Diana was born in the late afternoon on 1 July 1961, in Sandringham, Norfolk” according to wikipedia - rather vague http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diana,_Princess_of_Wales (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diana,_Princess_of_Wales)

In fact the question of an exact birth times is a recurring one for astrologers who are expected to provide accurate results with inaccurate natal data!

Here's a newspaper report of an extreme example that has been in the news just recently::smile:

"LONDON (Reuters) - Real name/birthplace of legendary silent-film star Charlie Chaplin is shrouded in mystery. British MI5 agents were asked in 1952 by the FBI, to investigate Chaplin who believed he was born 16 April 1889 South London – but MI5 found no record of his birth anywhere, declassified files revealed. A letter, found in a locked drawer last year, was sent to Chaplin a few years before his death in 1977 by a Jack Hill, who said Chaplin was born in a caravan belonging to his aunt "the Gypsy Queen" in central England and his mother was part of "the travelling community."

"It's very unusual, particularly after investigation by MI5, for the date and place of birth for such a well-known celebrity as Charlie Chaplin to remain so mysterious," said Professor Christopher Andrew, the official historian of MI5

Chaplin's oldest surviving son commented: "Though there's no proof that Jack Hill's information is correct, he obviously treated it seriously or he would not have preserved it so carefully".
source: REUTERS

sandstone
02-19-2012, 02:52 AM
here is my simple thesis :

if you want to learn about the hyleg and alcocoden( or any other interesting technique to astrology), use an astrology chart that is rated AA.. you stand a better chance of learning the technique you are trying to figure out, as opposed to getting bogged down with a chart that has question marks around it.. as much as it might be fun to focus on someone who you really want to know better that is also famous - pick someone with a chart that is rated AA.. you will get further... go with whitney houstons chart, not because i like her, but because you can try the technique out on a chart that is rated AA.. cheers -

JUPITERASC
02-19-2012, 03:11 AM
here is my simple thesis :
if you want to learn about the hyleg and alcocoden( or any other interesting technique to astrology), use an astrology chart that is rated AA.. you stand a better chance of learning the technique you are trying to figure out, as opposed to getting bogged down with a chart that has question marks around it.. as much as it might be fun to focus on someone who you really want to know better that is also famous - pick someone with a chart that is rated AA.. you will get further... go with whitney houstons chart, not because i like her, but because you can try the technique out on a chart that is rated AA.. cheers - Reminder to all: Omnisphericus commenced this thread with a traditional analysis of Whitney Houston's AA rated chart and IMO has delivered convincing results!


I will try firstly to give the example of the Hyleg and Alcocoden in the chart of the recently died pop diva Whitney Houston.

Lets take the example of Whitney Houston.
26865

Her chart is a night chart so we first look for a potential Hyleg in the Moon.
Moon is under the Horizon in a night chart, so it can not be Hyleg.
Then we go to the Sun (in a day chart we first go with the Sun), the Sun is in cadent 6th house so it can not be Hyleg too.
Than we look at the Syzygy, or the last lunation prior the birth. In the Whitney's chart it was a Full Moon prior the birth so the chart is so called Preventional and we take the Pars Fortuna as potential Hyleg.
It is in 4th in Cancer.
We now look at the dispositors to see which dispositor takes the most dignity points at the degree in which the PoF is.
For that reason we take the dignity table, I will use here a table with triplicities according to Dorotheus and terms according to the Egyptians.
Domicileruler takes 5 points, exaltation ruler 4, triplicity ruler 3, term ruler 2 and face ruler 1 point.
Moon, domicile ruler = 5 points
Jupiter exaltation ruler 4 points
Mars, triplicity ruler 3 points
Venus, term ruler 2 points
Venus, face ruler 1 point.

Next we look if the Moon (as having the most points in that degree in which PoF is) is making some classical (conjunction, sextile, square, trine, opposition) aspect to the PoF. She is making a square to the Fortuna but it is in wide orbs (although in the moiety). Jupiter is out of orb. Venus is not in aspect. Mars is making a partile (exact) aspect to the PoF and we will take him instead of the Moon (because it is in partile aspect).

So, Part Of Fortune is a Hyleg in Whitney's chart and Mars is Alcocoden.

Next we look at the years table of the planets potential Alcocodens:
26866

We see that the minor years of Mars are 15, Middle Years 40,5 and major years 66.
Mars is angular but in very week sign position (in Exile) so we will take its Middle years (40.5).
Next, we look at the aspects which Mars receives from the benefics and malefics.
If benefic aspects the Alcocoden with Con, sextile or trine adds its minor years as years and its middle years as months, weeks or days (according to the position in which lies).
If Malefic aspects the Alcocoden, subtract from the Alcocoden with its minor years and middle years as months, weeks or days.

Mars is aspecting the other malefic Saturn, but with trine (so this not subtract years because it is benevolent aspect).
Mars is making opposition with Jupiter but out of orb, and with opposition so this does not add to the years.
Mars is making a sextile to Venus and she can add her minor years.
So we add Venus' minor years (8), and her middle years as days (45), because she is cadent and combust. If she was in good position we would add her middle years as months.

So we have,
40.5years + 8years + 45 days = 48 years 7 months and 15 days.
Whitney lived 48 years 6 months and 2 days.

tsmall
02-19-2012, 03:50 AM
umkay, we want AA rated charts, and even those might have questions?

Omnisphericus, you wanted Janis Joplin (btw, this jr. astrologer's favorite singer, ever) AA rated from astro.com

19 January 1943 at 09:45 (= 09:45 AM ) Port Arthur TX, USA, 29n54, 93w56

Anyone up for this?

Omnisphericus
02-19-2012, 12:00 PM
So according to Ptolemy in Diana's chart Venus in 6th house cannot be Hyleg! And the Hyleg is Ascendant??

Planet in 6th house can not be Hyleg according to all the authors.
Sun in 8th unacceptable according to Ptolomy, Moon below the horizon not acceptable. There is no planet that rules at least 3 dignities in the degree of Sun, Moon, pre-natal new moon and Ascendant, so Ascendant is Hyleg in this chart yes.
According to the quote I quoted by the author from angelicus merlin you don't look for at least 3 dignities, but you look for the Almuten of those places.
But I was thought that you need to look for at least 3 dignities by one planet, and if that planet is in hylegical place in the natal chart you take that planet. Ptolomy's text is not clear here so it is a matter of debate.

Omnisphericus
02-19-2012, 12:07 PM
Reminder to all: Omnisphericus commenced this thread with a traditional analysis of Whitney Houston's AA rated chart and IMO has delivered convincing results!


I've used the summary of all H & A techniques and it seems out that it works that way. Maybe we should stick to that summary instead of trying all methods one by one (a time consuming thing) which leads to frustration and unconvinced results.
I'm eager to try Ptolomy's method though but it is too complicated, it requires dealing with numbers, mathematics of directions and knowledge of which particular directions to use. Ptolomy did not use Alcocoden, but was directing the Hyleg toward the 'killing' places (Dc-Ic-Ac).
I suggest to leave all the individual methods and to return to the 'all authors summary' method and Alcabitius house system which seems out that worked well in the Whitney's chart.

Omnisphericus
02-19-2012, 12:12 PM
umkay, we want AA rated charts, and even those might have questions?

Omnisphericus, you wanted Janis Joplin (btw, this jr. astrologer's favorite singer, ever) AA rated from astro.com

19 January 1943 at 09:45 (= 09:45 AM ) Port Arthur TX, USA, 29n54, 93w56

Anyone up for this?

27025

Here's the chart of JJ. I used the birth details given in astrodatabank.

In my next post I will give the summary of finding the Hyleg and Alcocoden as given in the angelicus merlin group.

Omnisphericus
02-19-2012, 12:19 PM
Here's the summary given by the author on angelicus merlin group:

When dealing with the luminaries; sect appears to be of prime importance.

In Day charts, we’re looking for the:

• Sun above the horizon in a masculine quarter (11th or 10th), or
• Sun above the horizon in a feminine quarter (7th, 9th) in a masculine sign, or
• Moon below the horizon in a feminine quarter (4th, 5th), or
• Moon below the horizon in a masculine quarter (1st, 2nd, 3rd) in a feminine sign

In Night charts, we’re looking for the:

• Moon above the horizon in a feminine quarter (9th, 7th), or
• Moon above the horizon in a masculine quarter (10th, 11th) in a feminine sign, or
• Sun below the horizon in a masculine quarter (1st, 2nd), or
• Sun below the horizon in a feminine quarter (4th or 5th) in a masculine sign

In either a day or night chart, the 1st, 10th and 11th appear to be acceptable for either
the Sun or Moon although Rob Hand points out that if the Moon is in the 5º before the
Asc she is in a masculine quarter and should therefore be in a feminine sign and if the
Sun is in the 25º following the Asc he is in a feminine quarter and should therefore be in
a masculine sign. The same logic would apply to the 5º before the 10th, if the Sun is
found there, he should be in a masculine sign as technically he’s in a feminine quarter.

Summary on potential Hylegs

Potential hylegs are the Sun, Moon, Part of Fortune, Asc and SAN. Or instead of using
the PoF, Asc and SAN itself, you are to take the Lord of the place or the Almuten of the
place. Some instructions advise you to look for the Almuten of all these places.
As a general rule, the potential Hyleg must aspect at least one of its dignity rulers.
Ptolemy appears to be the only exception in this, preferring a planet with two or more
dignities and no aspect over a planet in aspect with only one dignity.
Alchabitius rejected the Moon as hyleg if she was under the Sun’s beams. Heliodorus
rejected any planet as hyleg if it was USB.

The Hyleg is the giver of life. Once it is found, we need to look for the Alcochoden
or giver of years.

Omnisphericus
02-19-2012, 01:03 PM
Lilly used 5 degrees of orb for the planet near the house cusp to be in that following house. I suggest to stick to this rule because, I think, most of the authors are using it.

JJ's chart is a day chart.
Sun in 12th house - eliminated.
Moon below the horizon in the 5th house is potential hyleg.
Lets try.

Moon is at 8Cancer.
Now we look for the almuten.
(Btw I suggest to use dorotheus triplicities and egyptian terms. Why? Because Robert Zoller is using them, this is the best explanation I can give) :)

Domicile ruler Moon = 5 points
Exaltation Jupiter = 4 points
Triplicity Venus = 3 points
Term Venus = 2 points
Face Venus = 1 point (I must point out that some authors disregard 'Face' to be dignity, but we will use it only as an additional points giver. If the planet ruler only the Face we would not take it as a potential alcocoden, it is really weak dignity, except if it makes a partile aspect and have some other accidental dignity as being on MC for example).

So, Venus is having the most dignities and we look first to Venus as potential Alcocoden, if she makes an aspect to the Moon.
But she does not make an aspect. She is in 12th in Aquarius (sign in inconjunction to the Moon in cancer, old authors didn't knew about this aspect and they said that planets in inconjunct signs does not share their 'rays' to one another).
So we look for the 2nd best "Almuten" of the Moon and that is Jupiter.
They are in wide conjunction but still in the Moiety between these two (12.15).
So, Moon is Hyleg, Jupiter is Alcocoden.

Jupiter in Succedent house and Exaltation it would give its middle years (45.5)

Does not make an aspect with benefic nor malefic.
So we would stick to these years. But we are again out.

Look that 12th house ruler exactly on IC.

Lets look at the Lots.
When we look to the lots its better to use WSH.
She has Lot of Fortune at 5Leo, Lot of Spirit at 15Virgo and Lot of Basis at 5Aries.
If Lot of Fortune (the Ascendant of the Moon) is the First House (Leo) than 8th house would be Pisces (ruler Jupiter near the Hyleg) in the house of Pleasures (5th) and in watery sign (The official cause of death was an overdose of heroin, possibly combined with the effects of alcohol).
Jupiter, the ruler of the 8th sign (Pisces) from Fortuna (Leo) is in 12th sign with the ruler of the 12th sign Moon, bith Hyleg and Alcocoden in the chart.
The Lot of Basis is in the 8th sign from the Lot of Spirit (in Virgo).

In the natal chart.
Look how that Saturn on IC is making partile sextile to Lot of Fortuna and Lot of Basis.
Sun, the ruler of the Fortune in 12th.

It seems out that all these pointers has diminished the years of the Jupiter (45.5). If she did not use drugs and alcohol and lived unhealthy life, maybe she would lived more than 45 years.
Here is I think our free will coming to surface. I believe we are free to direct the planetary pointers in our birth chart to more positive way of expression or a negative expression. I think that we bear responsibility for our inner growth and development of our spirit/soul. Destiny gives us the Hyleg and Alcocoden, gives us a material with which we can work, but it is up to the free will what we actually do with that material.
My conclusion here is that the Alcocoden is Jupiter and he would give her his middle years if she lived more healthy life, but she didn't! So we can not blame the chart or the Alcocoden for diminishing the years of life.

But of course, we can try some other possibility for Hyleg and Alcocoden in her chart.

Omnisphericus
02-19-2012, 01:23 PM
I think Saturn on IC in partile aspect to the fortune and basis is already a sign for worry.
Ptolomy says that malefic can 'kill' even if in sextile aspect.
Fortuna and Lot of Basis are really strong points in the chart.
Fortuna is the Ascendant of the Moon (the body and soul).
Basis is a mix of the Fortuna and Spirit, the one ascendant of the Moon the other of the Sun = both Lights. The mental perception and astral perception, both afflicted by partile malefic (Saturn).

Jupiter1st
02-19-2012, 11:18 PM
So, Venus is having the most dignities and we look first to Venus as potential Alcocoden, if she makes an aspect to the Moon.
But she does not make an aspect. She is in 12th in Aquarius (sign in inconjunction to the Moon in cancer, old authors didn't knew about this aspect and they said that planets in inconjunct signs does not share their 'rays' to one another).
So we look for the 2nd best "Almuten" of the Moon and that is Jupiter.
They are in wide conjunction but still in the Moiety between these two (12.15).
So, Moon is Hyleg, Jupiter is Alcocoden.

Jupiter in Succedent house and Exaltation it would give its middle years (45.5)

Does not make an aspect with benefic nor malefic.
So we would stick to these years. But we are again out.


Omnisphericus, Jupiter is Retrograde in Joplin's chart. If alcocoden is Retrograde, years will be subtracted. I remember having read that 1/4th of alcocoden years are subtracted if it is retrograde. Yet, it might be 1/3rd as well but in my own examination with charts I subtract 1/4th and it seems consistent. In Joplin's case 1/4th of 45.5 is 11.37 (45.5-11.37) When subtracted it makes 34.13 If we subtract 1/3rd then it makes 30.16 it is close but still more than her real life span.

sandstone
02-19-2012, 11:44 PM
I wouldn't go that far. Even Lilly was not utterly satisfied with the technique of Hyleg, Alcocoden and Anareta. He said:
'I am not sufficiently satisfied
either of the Hyleg or Anareta, so neither of the Alcochodon'.

Even in the examples calculated today by the leading masters of traditional astrology, the years given by the Alcocoden does not match precisely.
For example Bernadette Brady (even though she is not a TA per se, she knows the techniques) in her article 'Hyleg and Alcocoden' has calculated the years of life of Charlee Chaplin, and she was going through the technique precisely how the old masters were presented it in their writings.
It seems out that according to the Alcocoden he should live 82,5 years; but he lived 88 years.
As once Robert Zoller said: "I don't know, only God knows".
Or Lilly: "I thank to the Almighty God, for prolonging the years of my life".

There is something more involved here, we may call it God.

omnisphericus, i wanted to share this post from you on the thread that you pointed to at the beginning of this thread as i thought it was worth keeping in mind in all of the work devoted to finding the h and a in others charts... i really liked what you said in this post.. regards - james

Omnisphericus
02-20-2012, 12:05 AM
omnisphericus, i wanted to share this post from you on the thread that you pointed to at the beginning of this thread as i thought it was worth keeping in mind in all of the work devoted to finding the h and a in others charts... i really liked what you said in this post.. regards - james

Be free to share any quote, but it would be nice to inform me in order to follow the thread in which you are quoting. :)

Omnisphericus
02-20-2012, 12:07 AM
Omnisphericus, Jupiter is Retrograde in Joplin's chart. If alcocoden is Retrograde, years will be subtracted. I remember having read that 1/4th of alcocoden years are subtracted if it is retrograde. Yet, it might be 1/3rd as well but in my own examination with charts I subtract 1/4th and it seems consistent. In Joplin's case 1/4th of 45.5 is 11.37 (45.5-11.37) When subtracted it makes 34.13 If we subtract 1/3rd then it makes 30.16 it is close but still more than her real life span.

Hmm yes, I think I also read somewhere that if R subtract 1/3 of its years but I'm not quite sure. But in this case I guess you've nailed it.

JUPITERASC
02-20-2012, 12:17 AM
omnisphericus, i wanted to share this post from you on the thread that you pointed to at the beginning of this thread as i thought it was worth keeping in mind in all of the work devoted to finding the h and a in others charts... i really liked what you said in this post.. regards - james
Omnisphericus, the thread sandstone refers to is this onehttp://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=363408#post363408 :smile:
I wouldn't go that far. Even Lilly was not utterly sutisfied with the technique of Hyleg, Alcocoden and Anareta. He said:
'I am not sufficiently satisfied
either of the Hyleg or Anareta, so neither of the Alcochodon'.

Even in the examples calculated today by the leading masters of traditional astrology, the years given by the Alcocoden does not match precisely.
For example Bernadette Brady (even though she is not a TA per se, she knows the techniques) in her article 'Hyleg and Alcocoden' has calculated the years of life of Charlee Chaplin, and she was going through the technique precisely how the old masters were presented it in their writings.
It seems out that according to the Alcocoden he should live 82,5 years; but he lived 88 years.
As once Robert Zoller said: "I don't know, only God knows".
Or Lilly: "I thank to the Almighty God, for prolonging the years of my life".

There is something more involved here, we may call it God.
But, to be reasonable, is it so surprising that Bernadette Brady was unable to calculate the Hyleg/alcocoden of Charlie Chaplin's chart to give the correct length of his actual life?

CHARLIE CHAPLIN'S TIME OF BIRTH IS SO COMPLETELY UNKNOWN THAT NEITHER THE FBI NOR M15 FOUND ANY EVIDENCE OF EVEN THE DAY OR YEAR - LET ALONE THE TIME! - as I posted earlier: :smile:
In fact the question of an exact birth times is a recurring one for astrologers who are expected to provide accurate results with inaccurate natal data!

Here's a newspaper report of an extreme example that has been in the news just recently::smile:

"LONDON (Reuters) - Real name/birthplace of legendary silent-film star Charlie Chaplin is shrouded in mystery. British MI5 agents were asked in 1952 by the FBI, to investigate Chaplin who believed he was born 16 April 1889 South London – but MI5 found no record of his birth anywhere, declassified files revealed. A letter, found in a locked drawer last year, was sent to Chaplin a few years before his death in 1977 by a Jack Hill, who said Chaplin was born in a caravan belonging to his aunt "the Gypsy Queen" in central England and his mother was part of "the travelling community."

"It's very unusual, particularly after investigation by MI5, for the date and place of birth for such a well-known celebrity as Charlie Chaplin to remain so mysterious," said Professor Christopher Andrew, the official historian of MI5

Chaplin's oldest surviving son commented: "Though there's no proof that Jack Hill's information is correct, he obviously treated it seriously or he would not have preserved it so carefully".
source: REUTERS

DreamingTheSeas
02-20-2012, 12:35 AM
As others already mentioned, its hard to know the exact birth time of famous people. Even for recently born people like Houston (unless she mentioned somewhere) more for people like Janis Joplin and even more Chaplin.
Maybe it would be better to have some examples from people WE know in personally. Like a parent who is dead and we have seen his birth certificate.

Omnisphericus
02-20-2012, 08:55 AM
As others already mentioned, its hard to know the exact birth time of famous people. Even for recently born people like Houston (unless she mentioned somewhere) more for people like Janis Joplin and even more Chaplin.
Maybe it would be better to have some examples from people WE know in personally. Like a parent who is dead and we have seen his birth certificate.

This is good, but this investigation is limited, and as I know the AA ratings on astrodata bank are taken from the birth certificate of the celebrities.

AA/Accurate accurate/ Data as recorded by the family or state. This includes BC (birth certificate), and BR (birth record), that which is not an official document but a quote of the birth record from the Registrar or Bureau of Records, the baptismal certificate, family Bible, or baby book. These data reflect the best available accuracy.

So, I think we should go only with the AA ratings.
The A ratings are by quoted (by friend or family) time which can be very non accurate.
In the case of JJ it is an AA rating.

JerryRR
02-21-2012, 07:43 PM
Quote:
"I do not agree that the sun must be discarded because it is impossible to live 120 years."

Jeanne Louise Calment.
Born 21 February,1875,07:00am,Arles,France.(AA data)
Died 4 August 1997 age 122.
Astodienst.

J.R.

Omnisphericus
02-21-2012, 10:26 PM
http://www.cieloeterra.it/eng/eng.articoli.considerations/eng.considerations.html#_ftnref24

This is great article on Hyleg and Alcochoden by italian astrologer Giuseppe Bezza on the site Cielo e Terra.
Here he speaks about the origin of the words and the earlier correspondence with the philosophical authors from the period. It is great article and certainly worth reading.

Omnisphericus
02-21-2012, 10:44 PM
While this might seem like a relatively minor point, its significance is that one study of the efficacy of the various classical definitions of the Hyleg was done, using the data from the shootings in the classroom in Dunblane, Scotland, in which about half the students were killed, and half were not. Penny Shelton compared methods from Ptolemy, Dorotheus, Bonatti, Lilly, Gadbury and Coley, and found the Bonatti system to be the most satisfactory in predicting which of the children lived, and which died.viii However, Shelton did not incorporate the necessity for the Sun or the Moon to aspect a dispositor to be counted as Hyleg. So perhaps this particular restriction needs reexamination.


This is an excerpt from another article on Hyleg by J.Lee Lehman.

Here's the article:
http://www.leelehman.com/joomla15/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=26:-encyclopedia-entries-on-medical-astrology&catid=34:medical&Itemid=37

Omnisphericus
02-21-2012, 10:47 PM
Lehman on Bonatti's system on finding the Hyleg and the rule of 'must have an aspect':
While this might look like a very rigorous system, there is actually one point of ambiguity. In Bonatti' s original definition, it was not stated that the Sun or Moon, in order to be Hyleg, also had to aspect one of its dispositors. The necessity for an aspect between any potential Hyleg and one of its dispositors was made in Omar of Tiberius' commentary,vi but it was initially unclear whether this was simply a variation introduced by Omar, or whether it reflected Bonatti' s actual usage. With the availability of more classical sources, we can now be reasonably sure that Bonatti simply gave a slightly abbreviated version of his actual working definition.vii

It seems out that we didn't get results from using Bonatti's system because we introduced the rule of 'must have an aspect' between the Hyleg and the Almuten.

tsmall
02-22-2012, 03:29 AM
I think Saturn on IC in partile aspect to the fortune and basis is already a sign for worry.
Ptolomy says that malefic can 'kill' even if in sextile aspect.
Fortuna and Lot of Basis are really strong points in the chart.
Fortuna is the Ascendant of the Moon (the body and soul).
Basis is a mix of the Fortuna and Spirit, the one ascendant of the Moon the other of the Sun = both Lights. The mental perception and astral perception, both afflicted by partile malefic (Saturn).

Did anyone else notice that in Janis' chart she has SNode right on the ASC?

Hmm yes, I think I also read somewhere that if R subtract 1/3 of its years but I'm not quite sure. But in this case I guess you've nailed it.

Does anyone have a source for this idea?

dr. farr
02-22-2012, 03:36 AM
Gerard of Cremona (and H.C. Agrippa) repeated an ancient doctrine regarding the SN: ie, if the Dragon's Tail is on the ascendant, the life is often shortened thereby.

(My own late wife, had the SN near the ascending degree: she passed away at 57 years of age)

Omnisphericus
02-22-2012, 01:05 PM
South Node (Cauda Draconis or Dragon's Tail) was regarded as Malefic by the ancients/medievals. And for many planets (like the Moon for example) it is said that they 'kill' when on the Ascendant in primary directions for example.
Gauricius predicted the death of King Henry II by directing Mars on the Ascendant. Bonatti says: "Moon kills when on the Ascendant".
Ascendant is the physical body which bears the Life, so every malefic on the Ascendant is a potential trouble. (Any malefic on the 'secondary ascendant' that is, Lot of Fortuna, is again trouble).

Omnisphericus
02-22-2012, 01:33 PM
Penny Shelton made an experiment where she tried all the methods by all the authors and she said that Bonatti's system gave the best results but without the 'must have an aspect' rule because as J. Lee Lehman says, that rule was probably added by later interpretator of the works of Bonatti (Omar of Tiberius).

Here's the Summary of Bonatti's system from J. Lee Lehman:

By contrast, here is the system of calculation according to Bonatti.v At Bonatti' s time, we also need to specify what ‘placement in a house' meant. Bonatti did not use 30º houses. In his system, if a body was on the cadent side of an angle, it was still angular if it was within 7º of the cusp. If was on the angular side of a succedent house, it was still succedent if it was within 5º of the cusp. And if a planet was on the succedent side of a cadent house, it was still cadent if it was within 3º of the cusp. In this table, the Hyleg is found once a statement is true. In other words, once you come to a true statement, stop looking: you' ve found your Hyleg.

So, we are gonna use Alcabitius house system.

Here's a table of Bonatti's summary (again given by J.Lee Lehman):
27098
(BTW does someone knows how to wide this picture throughout the post?
How to be seen without needing to click the picture and enter in?)

Would you recommend a chart on which we can re-try this method, but now without the 'must have an aspect' rule?

Omnisphericus
02-22-2012, 03:29 PM
I've opened an interesting discussion here:
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=367074#post367074

where I deal with the arabic/greek lots. The discussion is practical and I started it again with Whitney Houston's chart. We can combine these two techniques (H & A, and, Lots) in order to deepen our astrology knowledge and the predictive techniques of the ancients.
I welcome you there! :)

tsmall
02-22-2012, 10:07 PM
Penny Shelton made an experiment where she tried all the methods by all the authors and she said that Bonatti's system gave the best results but without the 'must have an aspect' rule because as J. Lee Lehman says, that rule was probably added by later interpretator of the works of Bonatti (Omar of Tiberius).

Here's the Summary of Bonatti's system from J. Lee Lehman:



So, we are gonna use Alcabitius house system.

Here's a table of Bonatti's summary (again given by J.Lee Lehman):
27098
(BTW does someone knows how to wide this picture throughout the post?
How to be seen without needing to click the picture and enter in?)

Would you recommend a chart on which we can re-try this method, but now without the 'must have an aspect' rule?

This is a great table! I still have a question about how we know how many years each planet gives and when. I mean how to know which years we get to take. Is that a judgement call, or is there instruction somewhere that can help determine this?

Omnisphericus
02-22-2012, 11:40 PM
This is a great table! I still have a question about how we know how many years each planet gives and when. I mean how to know which years we get to take. Is that a judgement call, or is there instruction somewhere that can help determine this?

If Alcocoden is angular you give the major years.
If it is succedent you give middle years.
If cadent you give minor years.
If it is in its own sign or exaltation (or triplicity) and angular this is great! But if it is in cadent you give the middle years (because of the dignity).

And so on.. you are combining alongside with your own judgment and astrological experience.

tsmall
02-22-2012, 11:51 PM
If Alcocoden is angular you give the major years.
If it is succedent you give middle years.
If cadent you give minor years.
If it is in its own sign or exaltation (or triplicity) and angular this is great! But if it is in cadent you give the middle years (because of the dignity).

And so on.. you are combining alongside with your own judgment and astrological experience.

Thank you!

Omnisphericus
02-23-2012, 01:02 PM
27128

Night chart.
We first look for the Moon.
Moon is not in angular or succedent house, it is in cadent (3rd).
Elvis is born on a waxing moon.

We go now to the 4th rule of the chart given by J. Lee Lehman (see above):
4. Born on a waxing moon: examine the dispositors of the Ascendant. If any of its dispositors also aspects the Ascendant, the Hyleg is the Ascendant, otherwise check the Fortuna for an aspecting dispositor.

Elvis's Ascendant is at 12Sagittarius.
Dispositors:
Jupiter (domicile and triplicity ruler) in 18 Scorpio (not aspecting)
Venus (term ruler) in 29 Capricorn, (not in aspect).

Ascendant can not be Hyleg.

We go now to the Fortuna.

It is in 27Libra.
Venus (domicile and term ruler) at 29 Capricorn is making square to the Fortuna.
Saturn the exaltation ruler is also making Trine to the Fortuna.
But Venus has more points and is in succedent house (2nd) so we will pick her as Alcocoden to the Hyleg Fortuna.

Venus succedent would give her Middle Years (45)

He died at age of 42.

DreamingTheSeas
02-23-2012, 05:12 PM
Omnisphericus,

I think Elvis Hyleg might be Mars and according to Bonati's method Moon is Hyleg.

When he died on Firdaria system he was in term of Node. I dont know how and if that makes any sence on the death thing.

sandstone
02-23-2012, 05:59 PM
according to solarfire 7.3 software - bonati/lehman hyleg for elvis is part of fortune.

Omnisphericus
02-23-2012, 08:26 PM
Omnisphericus,

I think Elvis Hyleg might be Mars and according to Bonati's method Moon is Hyleg.

As far as I know, according to Bonatti Moon can be Hyleg only if in angular or succedent house. In Elvis's chart is in 3rd (Cadent).


When he died on Firdaria system he was in term of Node. I dont know how and if that makes any sence on the death thing.

Yes, Nodes (especially South Node) is indicator of death and malefic things.

Omnisphericus
02-26-2012, 12:38 PM
27197

Bonatti differentiated 4 types of charts which he call them 'Differentia chart".

The 1st Differentia chart is a chart with the following conditions:
- Look at the main luminary of the chart (Sun/Moon)
- If the degree of this luminary, the degree of the Ascendant, both are in partile conjunction, square or opposition to a non dignified Malefic, and the rulers of both Luminaries are cadent.

2nd Differentia chart is the same as above but the aspect does not need to be partile (exact).

3rd Differentia chart is a chart without Hyleg.

4th Differentia chart are all other charts.

If the chart is 1st differentia, the baby will die before receive nourishment.
If the chart is 2nd differentia, the baby would die very shortly after receives nourishment (in a couple of days).
If the chart is 3rd differentia, the child would come to approximately 12 years of age.

The chart of the baby above should be 2nd differentia chart (the baby died after one month from fever).
But the 'rules' for 2nd differentia chart are not here.
So maybe the chart is 3rd differentia, i.e. does not have Hyleg.
But the chart have Hyleg according to Bonatti. The Moon is in4th (angular) in feminine sign Taurus, and is receiving aspect from Venus.

Rob Hand says: "If something is traditional doesn't automatically means its right, and if something is modern does not automatically means its wrong". (Speaking of the traditional techniques and approaches).

Omnisphericus
02-26-2012, 12:55 PM
Hmm it seems out that this chart is 3rd differentia.
According to other authorities, Moon bellow the horizon can not be hyleg.
So we go to the Sun. Sun in masculine quarter bellow can be Hyleg but does not receive aspect from its rulers.
Next, the syzygy is conjunctional so we go with the Ascendant and the ascendant also does not receive aspects.
The rulers of the syzygy degree does not receive aspect from their dispositors too.

So, the chart does not have Hyleg and it is 3rd differentia.

Omnisphericus
02-26-2012, 02:45 PM
I have SN in the 1st and had a car accident when directed Ascendant was in the SN five years ago. I was hit from behind by a van so heavily that my car came out of the motorway at high speed.

Fortunately, all I got was a harsh whiplash injury. I felt so lucky that nothing more severe had happened, but I have since then never got rid completely of the pain in my neck muscles. What I mean by it is that it has had a permanent negative consequence in my body, as signified by the 1st house.

I'm sorry to hear that pisces_girl :/
Did you had some aspects from benefics on the time of the accident?

Omnisphericus
02-26-2012, 02:55 PM
As for the chart of the baby above, here's what Bonatti is saying about the 3rd Differentia chart:

"The third (differentia) is of those (natives) who take nourishment and live for a month or for years but do not extend past the years of infancy and if he does survive them still he will not attain to long life".

The baby lived for a month.

Omnisphericus
02-26-2012, 04:25 PM
Here's Bonatti's summary on what distinguishes the differentia charts:

"How the four differentia of Nativities ought to be looked to in order."

"The first of these will be that of abortions, those born dead or half-dead or who do not live long enough to be nourished".

"The second (differentia) is of those who take nourishment, but in whom life does not last long enough that any sensible utility results".

"The third (differentia) is of those (nativities) who take nourishment and live for a month or for years but do not extend past the years of infancy and if he does survive them still he will not attain to long life".

"The four (differentia) is of some of those who take nourishment and life lasts in them until they attain to maturity and sometimes attain to old age. And to this (differentia) is subordinated the instances of those who attain to very great length of life and die from old age - although this happens to few".

DreamingTheSeas
02-26-2012, 10:00 PM
Omni and everyone else,

As i read every time a little more for Hyleg, i come to conclusion that ancient and medieval authors excluded a 12th house Hyleg. Can't have an Hyleg in this house. Am i wrong?

Omnisphericus
02-26-2012, 10:11 PM
Omni and everyone else,

As i read every time a little more for Hyleg, i come to conclusion that ancient and medieval authors excluded a 12th house Hyleg. Can't have an Hyleg in this house. Am i wrong?

Hyleg in 12th and 6th - no way! :)
In 8th under certain sircumstances (for some authorities).

Omnisphericus
02-26-2012, 10:44 PM
Lets now examine the method of calculating the 1st differentia chart:

We will use the chart of the baby gaven above (the chart is not first differentia but will use the chart as an example of calculating as I do not have a chart of 1st differentia at the moment).

We calculate the following points:

1. Ascendant 29Sagittarius / term ruler Mars
2. Ruler of the Ascendant - Saturn 22Aquarius/ term ruler Mars
3. Rulers of the triplicity of the Ascendant (Fire):
- Jupiter 13Aries/ term ruler Jupiter
- Sun 01Aquarius/ term ruler Mercury
- Saturn 22Aquarius/ term ruler Mars
4. Seventh house 29Gemini/ term ruler Saturn
5. Ruler of the Seventh House - Mercury at 7Capricorn/ term ruler Jupiter
6. Fourth House 23Aries/ term ruler Mars
7. Ruler of the Fourth House - Mars at 6Aquarius/ term ruler Mercury
8. Tenth House at 23Libra/ term ruler Venus
9. Ruler of the 10th house - Venus at 6Pisces/ term ruler Venus
10. Sun at 01Aq/ term ruler Mercury
11. Ruler of the Sun - Saturn at 22 Aquarius/ term ruler Mars
12. Moon at 0 Taurus/ term ruler Venus
13. Ruler of the Moon - Venus at 6Pisces/ term ruler Venus
14. Rulers of the Triplicity of the Sun (Air):
- Mercury at 7 Capricorn/ term ruler Mercury
- Saturn at 22 Aquarius/ term ruler Mars
- Jupiter 13Aries/ term ruler Jupiter
15. Conjunction (New Moon prior the birth) at 23 Capricorn/ term ruler Saturn
16. Part of Fortune at 0Libra/ term ruler Saturn
17. Ruler of the Part of Fortune - Venus at 6Pisces/ term ruler Venus
18. Jupiter (because its benefic) 13Aries/ term ruler Jupiter
19. Venus (because its benefic) 6Pisces/ term ruler Venus
20. Moon (as nocturnal planet) at 0Taurus/ term ruler Venus
21. Venus (as nocturnal planet) at 6Pisces/ term ruler Venus
22. Mars (as nocturnal planet) at 6Aquarius/ term ruler Mercury

Table of points:
27210

As we can see, Saturn (with most points) is the Almuten of these places.

Lets now look at the summary (given by Bonatti) for first differentia:

1. The Almuten of the important points to be cadent.
(IF we take the Whole Sign Houses then the Almuten - Saturn is Cadent in Aquarius)

2. Any of the malefics should impede by degree (partile).

3. Impeded degree that rises (to be impeded by non dignified Malefic through conjunction, square or opposition).

4. The positions of the Luminaries are impeded. (in the case of the baby's chart that we are examining the luminaries are impeded by a non dignified Malefic - Mars, though not in partile, which would give 2nd differentia).
Exists two opinions on this matter reproduced by Bonatti. The one is from Ptolomy, the other is from the 'other ancients'.
Ptolomy thinks that the main luminary should be impeded and the rulers of the of the degree of the luminaries should be cadent, and the Ascendant degree should be impeded.
According to the 'other ancients', the ruler of all the three triplicities (of the Ascendant or of the main luminary) are cadent; and the luminaries are cadent; and their rulers are cadent and the place of the syzygy is cadent.

In conclusion we would say that the chart of this baby is difficult.
It has impeded luminaries by a non dignified malefic (Mars).
The rulers of the triplicity of the Ascendant (Sun-Jupiter and Saturn) are in Cadent houses. Sun is in Aq - a cadent house in the Whole Sign system (Zoller suggests to use both - WS and Quadrant system of houses in calculating these techniques, because they came from earlier hellenistic sources where they used WS), Saturn as Almudebit (Almuten of all those places we calculate) is in Cadent Aquarius. Jupiter is in cadent quadrant house. Next, the rulers of these triplicity rulers are cadent: Saturn - ruler of the Sun is in Aquarius and Mars as ruler of Jupiter's Aries is cadent in Aquarius.

sprinthrussfed
03-16-2012, 06:12 PM
According to Ptolemy, if Sun is present in 1st, 7th, 9th, 10th or 11th houses, then it will be the hyleg. If Moon is present in these places then it will become hyleg. If neither, then the cusp of the Ascendant will be the hyleg.

According to Bonatti, if Sun is present in 1st, 10th or 11th houses, then it becomes hyleg. Otherwise if Sun is in 7th, 8th or 9th houses and it is a masculine house, then it becomes hyleg. If Sun is not hyleg then think about Moon. If Moon is in 1st, 4th, 7th or 10th houses then it becomes hyleg. Otherwise if Moon is in 2nd, 5th, 8th or 11th house which is a feminine house then it becomes hyleg.

don't you agree with them?

Omnisphericus
03-17-2012, 03:00 AM
don't you agree with them?


I do not understand your question.
There are different methods about finding the Hyleg presented with different authors. You've just mentioned two of them. We started this thread in order to check the validity of each author's method applying it in actual charts of already death persons in order to find which one is most workable.

sprinthrussfed
03-20-2012, 05:32 PM
I do not understand your question.
There are different methods about finding the Hyleg presented with different authors. You've just mentioned two of them. We started this thread in order to check the validity of each author's method applying it in actual charts of already death persons in order to find which one is most workable.
how many methods are there? which method did you use in your first post?

which method do you think is the most workable?

Omnisphericus
03-30-2012, 08:52 AM
how many methods are there? which method did you use in your first post?

which method do you think is the most workable?

In my first post I have used the method of summary from all the authors (of what almost all authors agree).
I think this is most workable. I have listed the rules of this method in my first posts on the thread.
Bonatti's method also gives good results.
I'm aiming to try the Abu Ali's method in near future. I will post my findings.

terrcolomba
03-30-2012, 09:22 PM
scotty beckett
born October 4, 1929 8:23 am
in oakland(ca) (united states)
died May 10, 1968

method from your first posts

his potential hyleg is the sun but no aspect

asc is the hyleg and mars is the giver of years? 9 degree conjunction

mars cadent and in detriment 15 years
venus sextile mars add 8 years and 45 months

26 years but he lived 39 years

Omnisphericus
03-30-2012, 09:32 PM
scotty beckett
born October 4, 1929 8:23 am
in oakland(ca) (united states)
died May 10, 1968

method from your first posts

his potential hyleg is the sun but no aspect

asc is the hyleg and mars is the giver of years? 9 degree conjunction

mars cadent and in detriment 15 years
venus sextile mars add 8 years and 45 months

26 years but he lived 39 years

But how accurate is the chart?
I can't find the chart on astrodatabank. There is no sense to look at wrong chart and check the validity of these techniques. We need to have precise birth details.

JUPITERASC
03-30-2012, 10:09 PM
But how accurate is the chart?
I can't find the chart on astrodatabank. There is no sense to look at wrong chart and check the validity of these techniques. We need to have precise birth details.
Omnisphericus here's some info on Scotty Beckett - apparently he suffered "a severe beating" two days prior to his death but there are no details as to who inflicted that beating. No time of birth is give on wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotty_Beckett :smile:

Scott Hastings "Scotty" Beckett (October 4, 1929 – May 10, 1968) was an American child actor. He starred in the Our Gang and Rocky Jones, Space Ranger series. The last ten years of Beckett's life were filled with stories of divorce, violence, drugs and arrests. After more or less giving up show business, he tried selling real estate, then cars, and twice enrolled at universities with the intention of becoming a medical doctor. In 1961, Beckett married Margaret C. Sabo, she would remain with him until his death.

On May 8, 1968, he checked into a Hollywood nursing home, needing medical attention after suffering a serious beating. He died two days later at age 38. Although pills and a note were found, no conclusion was made by the coroner as to the exact cause of death; however, some speculate he overdosed on barbiturates or alcohol. Leonard Maltin wrote: "It was a particularly sad end for someone who, as a child, had shown so much easy charm and talent". source: wikipedia

Omnisphericus
03-30-2012, 10:24 PM
Omnisphericus here's some info on Scotty Beckett - apparently he suffered "a severe beating" two days prior to his death but there are no details as to who inflicted that beating. No time of birth is give on wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotty_Beckett :smile:

Scott Hastings "Scotty" Beckett (October 4, 1929 – May 10, 1968) was an American child actor. He starred in the Our Gang and Rocky Jones, Space Ranger series. The last ten years of Beckett's life were filled with stories of divorce, violence, drugs and arrests. After more or less giving up show business, he tried selling real estate, then cars, and twice enrolled at universities with the intention of becoming a medical doctor. In 1961, Beckett married Margaret C. Sabo, she would remain with him until his death.

On May 8, 1968, he checked into a Hollywood nursing home, needing medical attention after suffering a serious beating. He died two days later at age 38. Although pills and a note were found, no conclusion was made by the coroner as to the exact cause of death; however, some speculate he overdosed on barbiturates or alcohol. Leonard Maltin wrote: "It was a particularly sad end for someone who, as a child, had shown so much easy charm and talent". source: wikipedia


Thank you for the info.
It would be great if we can find accurate birth details of this man and check his chart for the Hyleg and Alcocoden, but also for some signs of violence in it.

JUPITERASC
03-30-2012, 11:02 PM
scotty beckett
born October 4, 1929 8:23 am
in oakland(ca) (united states)
died May 10, 1968

method from your first posts

his potential hyleg is the sun but no aspect

asc is the hyleg and mars is the giver of years? 9 degree conjunction

mars cadent and in detriment 15 years
venus sextile mars add 8 years and 45 months

26 years but he lived 39 year s
terrcolomba. I draw your attention to the following important proviso emphasised by Omnisphericus at the commencement of this thread :smile:
So, Hyleg and Alcocoden are showing the Vital Life Force of the native. They show how much years in life do you have according to the 'Esse' or the condition of your body and soul. With the modern medicine it seems out that this Esse is prolonged, but we will see how in the case of Whitney Houston this is almost exact.
If the nativity dies from a serial killer, or a car accident H & A does not count, they do not show the accidents, they show the condition of the body and soul and accordingly how much years one have.
Clearly, your example of the death of Scotty Beckett is a good illustration of someone whose death was hastened by a severe beating - the obvious mystery is how long Scotty Beckett could have lived if he had not sustained that severe beating
Thank you for the info.
It would be great if we can find accurate birth details of this man and check his chart for the Hyleg and Alcocoden, but also for some signs of violence in it.
I shall do some research - however he could be one of those cases similar to Charlie Chaplain - having no certain time of birth. Charlie Chaplain is a complete mystery, even the FBI/MI5 et al could not discover any record of his birth!:smile:

terrcolomba
04-02-2012, 09:51 PM
I shall do some research - however he could be one of those cases similar to Charlie Chaplain - having no certain time of birth. Charlie Chaplain is a complete mystery, even the FBI/MI5 et al could not discover any record of his birth!:smile:
scotty beckett time of birth 8:23 am.

Birthname Nicol Williamson
born on 14 September 1936 at 04:45 (= 04:45 AM ) Place Hamilton, Scotland
sun is the hyleg,saturn is the giver of life.

saturn peregrine 57 years

57 years but he lived 75 year

JUPITERASC
04-02-2012, 10:27 PM
scotty beckett time of birth 8:23 am.
Birthname Nicol Williamson
born on 14 September 1936 at 04:45 (= 04:45 AM ) Place Hamilton, Scotland
sun is the hyleg,saturn is the giver of life.
saturn peregrine 57 years
57 years but he lived 75 year
At this link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicol_Williamson it is admitted that "Many sources give an incorrect date of birth, stating that Nicol Williamson was born in 1938 rather than 1936"

so how reliable is the time of birth terrcolomba?:smile:

terrcolomba
04-03-2012, 07:19 PM
Birthname Elizabeth Rosemond Taylor born on 27 February 1932 at 02:15 (= 02:15 AM ) Place London, England

Death by Disease 23 March 2011 at 01:28 AM in Los Angeles, CA (Congestive heart failure, age 79)


her hyleg is moon alcocoden is the sun

sun is 69.5 years
sun is parallel and in venus term and exalt 8 years 45 months

81 and 3 months but she lived 79 years

terrcolomba
04-05-2012, 08:22 PM
Sinatra, Frank
12 December 1915 at 03:00 (= 03:00 AM ) Hoboken, New Jersey
hyleg is sun,giver of life is jupiter
79 years but he lived 82 years

Omnisphericus
04-07-2012, 10:12 PM
Terrcolomba, do not worry if you are off with 2-3 years. Robert Zoller says: "If you are off 2-3 years, you have found the Alkokoden".
It is not an easy thing to predict death precisely, and it is in the hands of what we may call it God, not in the hands of the astrologers.

Its very rare to be on the spot with months or days precisely as we were with the Whitney Houston's death.
For example, in the Elvis Prestley's chart, I've calculated 42 years give by the Alcocoden Jupiter, but in the same year when the 'protection' of the Alcocoden has finished Elvis entered the South Node Fridaria, and guess what, the South Node in the natal is in the 8th house. So this was meant to be the year in which Elvis would die.
But sometimes, after the protection of the Alkokoden is over, God gives the man some years plus till some other indicator indicates death.
We talk about the Life here - the most precious thing, once taken away is never getting back. (At least from the physical standpoint).

waybread
04-07-2012, 11:27 PM
Terrcolomba, do not worry if you are off with 2-3 years. Robert Zoller says: "If you are off 2-3 years, you have found the Alkokoden".
It is not an easy thing to predict death precisely, and it is in the hands of what we may call it God, not in the hands of the astrologers.....


Amen to that.

JUPITERASC
04-07-2012, 11:44 PM
Terrcolomba, do not worry if you are off with 2-3 years. Robert Zoller says: "If you are off 2-3 years, you have found the Alkokoden".

It is not an easy thing to predict death precisely, and it is in the hands of what we may call it God, not in the hands of the astrologers.

Its very rare to be on the spot with months or days precisely as we were with the Whitney Houston's death.

For example, in the Elvis Prestley's chart, I've calculated 42 years give by the Alcocoden Jupiter, but in the same year when the 'protection' of the Alcocoden has finished Elvis entered the South Node Fridaria, and guess what, the South Node in the natal is in the 8th house. So this was meant to be the year in which Elvis would die.
But sometimes, after the protection of the Alkokoden is over, God gives the man some years plus till some other indicator indicates death.

We talk about the Life here - the most precious thing, once taken away is never getting back. (At least from the physical standpoint).
Exactly... well said Omnisphericus :smile:

terrcolomba
04-11-2012, 05:36 PM
Terrcolomba, do not worry if you are off with 2-3 years. Robert Zoller says: "If you are off 2-3 years, you have found the Alkokoden".
It is not an easy thing to predict death precisely, and it is in the hands of what we may call it God, not in the hands of the astrologers.

Its very rare to be on the spot with months or days precisely as we were with the Whitney Houston's death.
For example, in the Elvis Prestley's chart, I've calculated 42 years give by the Alcocoden Jupiter, but in the same year when the 'protection' of the Alcocoden has finished Elvis entered the South Node Fridaria, and guess what, the South Node in the natal is in the 8th house. So this was meant to be the year in which Elvis would die.
But sometimes, after the protection of the Alkokoden is over, God gives the man some years plus till some other indicator indicates death.
We talk about the Life here - the most precious thing, once taken away is never getting back. (At least from the physical standpoint).
what about scotty beckett and nicol williamson(off with 18 years)? could you try other methods ?

In your first post you have used the method of summary from all the authors (of what almost all authors agree), where have you found this method?

who are all the authors?

could you post Abu Ali's method? thanks Omnisphericus

Omnisphericus
04-11-2012, 07:07 PM
I think Steven Birchfield made the summary.

Abu Ali's summary:

For Hyleg:
1. The potential Hyleg must be angular or succedent
2. If the Sun, must be in a masculine sign or quarter (1,11,12,4,5,6)
3. If the Moon, must be in a feminine sign or quarter (1,2,3,7,8,9)
4. Must be aspected by one of it’s domicile, term exaltation, triplicity or decan rulers.
5. If the Part of Fortune is used it must be aspected by its domicile, exaltation or
term ruler (triplicity rulers don’t count)

For Alkokoden Abu Ali says pretty much the same as the other authors:
to find the planet which has most dignities in the place of the Hyleg and who is aspecting the Hyleg.
If there are more than one potential alkokodens (more than one are aspecting it), take the one who is nearest to the Hyleg (by Zodiacal State, instead of the aspect by degrees as Bonatti states).

The angular Alkokoden gives the major years, succedent - middle, and cadent = minor.

Abu Ali says that South Node in conjunction to the Alcocoden takes 1/4 of his years, while North Node adds 1/4 of the Alcocoden's years (Bonatti rejects the North Node adding, while he agree with the South Node taking).

Benefic in conjunction, sextile, trine, and strong in state gives its minor years; if its in medium strength adds its minor years as months; if in weak state adds its minor years as hours. (Just to note that Bonatti says that Benefic add years through opposition and square too while Abu Ali says that if in bad aspect neither add neither subtracts)

Malefic in square or opposition subtracts its minor years.
Malefic in good aspect neither add nor subtracts.

Mercury, if with fortunes, will add his minor years; with malefics, subtract his minor
years.

It seems out that Abu Ali suggest that if Hyleg is directed to some malefic body, that brings "Destruction to the native", and some think this means that this is so regardless the years of the Alcocoden.
I think this is true, and there is why we can't find the Alcocoden of some tragically died persons.

terrcolomba
04-13-2012, 07:46 PM
I think Steven Birchfield made the summary.

Abu Ali's summary:

For Hyleg:
1. The potential Hyleg must be angular or succedent
2. If the Sun, must be in a masculine sign or quarter (1,11,12,4,5,6)
3. If the Moon, must be in a feminine sign or quarter (1,2,3,7,8,9)
4. Must be aspected by one of it’s domicile, term exaltation, triplicity or decan rulers.
5. If the Part of Fortune is used it must be aspected by its domicile, exaltation or
term ruler (triplicity rulers don’t count)

For Alkokoden Abu Ali says pretty much the same as the other authors:
to find the planet which has most dignities in the place of the Hyleg and who is aspecting the Hyleg.
If there are more than one potential alkokodens (more than one are aspecting it), take the one who is nearest to the Hyleg (by Zodiacal State, instead of the aspect by degrees as Bonatti states).

The angular Alkokoden gives the major years, succedent - middle, and cadent = minor.

Abu Ali says that South Node in conjunction to the Alcocoden takes 1/4 of his years, while North Node adds 1/4 of the Alcocoden's years (Bonatti rejects the North Node adding, while he agree with the South Node taking).

Benefic in conjunction, sextile, trine, and strong in state gives its minor years; if its in medium strength adds its minor years as months; if in weak state adds its minor years as hours. (Just to note that Bonatti says that Benefic add years through opposition and square too while Abu Ali says that if in bad aspect neither add neither subtracts)

Malefic in square or opposition subtracts its minor years.
Malefic in good aspect neither add nor subtracts.

Mercury, if with fortunes, will add his minor years; with malefics, subtract his minor
years.

It seems out that Abu Ali suggest that if Hyleg is directed to some malefic body, that brings "Destruction to the native", and some think this means that this is so regardless the years of the Alcocoden.
I think this is true, and there is why we can't find the Alcocoden of some tragically died persons.

thanks Omnisphericus.

by Abu Ali, their hyleg is the sun.
nicol williamson alcocoden is saturn and scotty beckett alcocoden is mercury
scotty mercury is 48 years trine jupiter 60 years but he lived 39 years. nicol williamson saturn is 43.5 years but he lived 75 year.

primary directions?

scotty beckett
the hyleg sun is 10 libra directed to 28 libra mars, no death
directed to 13 scorpio south node
33 years but he lived 39 years.

nicol williamson hyleg sun is not directed to any malefics.

could you try other methods to find their correct hyleg and alcocoden ? i posted their date of birth etc in my earlier posts

elizabath taylor hyleg is moon
66.5 square jupiter (bonatti) 78.5 and 11 months
79.5 years, she died March 23, 2011,aged 79 and 1 month

who are all the authors of the hyleg and alcocoden methods?

Omnisphericus
04-13-2012, 07:56 PM
thanks Omnisphericus.

by Abu Ali, their hyleg is the sun.
nicol williamson alcocoden is saturn and scotty beckett alcocoden is mercury
scotty mercury is 48 years trine jupiter 60 years but he lived 39 years. nicol williamson saturn is 43.5 years but he lived 75 year.

primary directions?

scotty beckett
the hyleg sun is 10 libra directed to 28 libra mars, no death
directed to 13 scorpio south node
33 years but he lived 39 years.

nicol williamson hyleg sun is not directed to any malefics.

could you try other methods to find their correct hyleg and alcocoden ? i posted their date of birth etc in my earlier posts

elizabath taylor hyleg is moon
66.5 square jupiter (bonatti) 78.5 and 11 months
79.5 years, she died March 23, 2011,aged 79 and 1 month

who are all the authors of the hyleg and alcocoden methods?


Terrocolomba, try finding the Anareta.

The Method

Find the dispositor (all the rulers of the places including the 3 triplicity rulers) of these places:

- Ascendant
- Pars of Death (ASC + HC8 - MO)
- Lord of the Pars of Death
- 4th house
- Ruler of the 4th house
- The first triplicity ruler of the 4th house (you find its place and calculate its dispositors)
- The cusp on the 8th sign fron Sun.
- The ruler of the 8th sign from Sun.

The planet which gets most points in all these places is called the Anareta (The Killing Planet).
Once you know the Anareta, you check the Primary Directions of that planet to angles, especially AC, or to the Hyleg. Also directions to the planets in the 8th house in the horoscope, because they are natural representative of death by the accident placement in the house.

Check for example the chart of Sharon Tate.
Her Anareta is Mercury, and on the day she was killed, Mercury by direction conjucted the Cauda Draconis (South Node) in 8th. She was also in Firdaria Mercury period.
The profected ascendant was also in the 8th sign from the Sun.
Remember, the SUn is the natural giver of life, the Moon of body.

You need to get a good grip on all the techniques before you prepeare your self to judge death in the horoscope. It is not an easy thing and it is not a thing with which we can play.
Don't look all the proofs in the Hyleg and Alkokoden only. The technique is a tricky one and there is no general rule applied to all the cases.
You need to combine the techniques, this is the Art! ;)

dr. farr
04-14-2012, 05:32 AM
And I heartily second Omnisphericus emphasis! You need to combine the techniques!! You need to look at the results/indications of 2 or 3 approaches, before even attempting to approach a prognostication. And, all of these methods are part of advanced astrological practice, so one must get the basics and THEN go on to study and understand the more advanced material. That's just the way things are regarding this very complex area of astrological study (longevity, critical years approximations)...

Omnisphericus
04-16-2012, 01:25 AM
Here is one very important quote from the great experience of the great astrologer Robert Zoller (Regarding Hyleg and Alcocoden):

I have been working with this doctrine now for 20 years. I am convinced
that it was intended as an approximation of the length of the native’s life
rather than as a precise measure of life. The precise determination of the
length of life requires the application of Ptolemy’s Prorogation Method
(Tetrabiblos III.10), i.e. of the Primary Direction of the Apheta (killing point) to the Anaereta (Hyleg).

Omnisphericus
04-16-2012, 01:50 AM
I'm still rereading Bonatti's material on finding the Hyleg and Alcocoden and trying to grasp this subject.
Zoller recommends to combine the method of Ptolemy and Bonatti.
To find the approximation given by the Alcocoden and then by direction to find the Killing Planet coming (when) on the Hyleg.

For day charts Bonatti says to look for the Sun in the 1st, 10th and 11th.
If in 7,8,9 it should be in Masculine Sign.

To be Hyleg it must receive an aspect by the 5 possible dispositors (domicile/exaltation/triplicities/term/face).

For the night chart you look for the Moon in angular or succedent house and in feminine sign. (I guess this is if its in house other then 1,10,11). But later on Bonatti says that the sex of the sign does not matter. Although it is good to be in masculine sign if in male chart or in feminine sign if in female chart.
Again, the rule for having an aspect from the dispositor is on.

Bonatti also makes an exception of the cadent houses allowing Moon to be Hyleg in the 3rd because it is the place of her Joy and because the Moon is foundation of the 3rd.

If Sun or Moon cannot be Hyleg, you look to the Syzygy to see if the geniture is Preventional (full moon prior the birth) or Conjunctional (new moon prior the birth).

If it is Preventional, you search for possible Hyleg in Part of Fortune.
If it is Conjunctional you look to the Ascending Degree and if its dispositors or the Moon are aspecting it (Moon because signifies the Body), then it can be Hyleg.

If none of this can be Hyleg, then you take the Pre-natal lunation degree to be Hyleg. And the same rule of the dispositors apsecting it is applied.

If you find the Hyleg who has more then one rulers aspecting it, you take the one who is more close by aspect or conjunction to it, to be Alcocoden.
And if they all aspect equally, you will take the one who is stronger in its own place and has dignity better then the other ones, to be the Alcocoden.

“After you have determined the Hyleg and the Alcocoden, you are able
to determine the number of years of the native’s life.”
Says Bonatti.

“The Hyleg signifies the source of life (Radicem Vitae) but the Alcocoden signifies the
number of its years. This is because the condition of life is received
from the Hyleg but the allotting of years from the Alcocoden. However
neither of these suffice for the giving of life to the native without the
other, just as a man, by himself, does not suffice for generating, so
neither does a woman by herself, alone, suffice for conceiving or
bearing. Indeed one is not able to bring forth without the other. The
Hyleg gives life formally, the Alcocoden gives it effectively.”

And about the end of life and how to find it once you had determined the Alcocoden and the (approximate!) years given by it, Bonatti says:

And you will
see in which of those years the Hyleg may come to the bodies of the
malefics or to the places where they were in the nativity or to the square
aspect of them or the opposition or to cauda draconis or to the degree
in which it was in the nativity or to the square aspect of the place in
which the Moon was in the nativity or to the opposition of it giving to
each degree according to the degree of the region one year and unless
a benefic projects its rays to the term in which the Hyleg arrives to the
[place of the] impending malefic, it signifies that the native will die in
that year or month or day, indeed in the hour in which the arrival of
the Hyleg to the aforesaid places or to any one of them is perfected.”

Bonatti next says that if the Hyleg comes to the aforesaid places before the time given by the Alcocoden's years, then the native will have many impediments and troubles but eventually will not die (except because of his own error).

terrcolomba
04-17-2012, 04:23 PM
I have been working with this doctrine now for 20 years. I am convinced
that it was intended as an approximation of the length of the native’s life
rather than as a precise measure of life. The precise determination of the
length of life requires the application of Ptolemy’s Prorogation Method
(Tetrabiblos III.10), i.e. of the Primary Direction of the Apheta (killing point) to the Anaereta (Hyleg).
Ptolemy’s hyleg and alcocoden calculation same as bonatti's?

how do you calculate the apheta(killing point)?


bonatti's
Name Darin, Bobby
born on 14 May 1936 at 05:28 (= 05:28 AM ) Place Manhattan, New York
Death by Heart Attack 20 December 1973 (Heart surgery, age 37, in Los Angeles)

For the night chart you look for the Moon in angular or succedent house and in feminine sign. (I guess this is if its in house other then 1,10,11). But later on Bonatti says that the sex of the sign does not matter. Although it is good to be in masculine sign if in male chart or in feminine sign if in female chart.
Again, the rule for having an aspect from the dispositor is on.if it doesn't matter, moon is the hyleg, mars the alcocoden 39.5 years

if it matters, sun is the hyleg, saturn or moon is the alcocoden, saturn is 43.5 years, moon is 25 jupiter sextile 37 years = correct but mars is square and if you subtract that it is not correct.

And you will
see in which of those years the Hyleg may come to the bodies of the
malefics or to the places where they were in the nativity or to the square
aspect of them or the opposition or to cauda draconis or to the degree
in which it was in the nativity or to the square aspect of the place in
which the Moon was in the nativity or to the opposition of it giving to
each degree according to the degree of the region one year and unless
a benefic projects its rays to the term in which the Hyleg arrives to the
[place of the] impending malefic, it signifies that the native will die in
that year or month or day, indeed in the hour in which the arrival of
the Hyleg to the aforesaid places or to any one of them is perfected.” progression or directions?
saturn is not directed or progressed to any and moon is directed to square cauda draconis but 40 degrees,he lived 37 years

Omnisphericus
04-17-2012, 04:34 PM
Ptolemy’s hyleg and alcocoden calculation same as bonatti's?

No, Ptolemy did not even had Alcocoden.
He was allowing Hyleg to be only in the upper hemisphere (above the earth).
His Hylegical (productive) places are only 1/10/11 and 7/9 if in masculine signs.
Once he found the Hyleg he than looked at the directions, when the Hyleg was directed to malefics, or when the killing planet (see bellow) was directed to the Hyleg or the angles (especially AC, because AC represents the Body).



how do you calculate the apheta(killing point)?

The method.
Calculate the dispositors of all these places:

1. Ascendant (5 for domicile ruler, 4 for exaltation ruler, 3 for all triplicity rulers, 2 for term, 1 for face).
2. Parth of Death (AC + HC8 - Moon)
3. Ruler of the Part of Death
4. 4th house
5. Ruler of the 4th house
6. Triplicity ruler of the 4th house (the first triplicity ruler).
7. 8th sign from the Sun
8. Ruler of the 8th sign from the Sun

The planet that has most dignities in these places is Anareta or the Killing Planet.

Omnisphericus
04-17-2012, 04:37 PM
Terrocolomba, you now have the methods in hand, you know the calculations and if you want to try the practical side of this art, post your process of calculation here in order for us to see how you found the Hyleg, the Alcocoden, and Anareta.
Step by step.
You are confusing me with your final examinations giving to us only the numbers of which I don't know how did you ever get them. :)

Omnisphericus
04-17-2012, 05:22 PM
http://i42.tinypic.com/hui00m.png

Well, many of the traditional authors says that Anareta should be directed to the Hyleg or to the angles in order to find the years of death of the person.
But I found also to be true that if one has planets or points (as Nodes) in 8th house, than that place would naturally represents dangerous point, because the 8th and everything in it, naturally bears analogy to death.
This is not written in the old texts (that you should direct Anareta to the planets or points in 8th) as far as I'm aware, but it is a logical conclusion of my experience, and we will see that in practice in the following example.

Hyleg is the Ascendant, Alcocoden is Jupiter.
Jupiter because it is angular but retrograde would give the middle years: 45,5.
That is, Moon cadent would give only days or months.
Jupiter does not receive aspect neither by malefic nor by benefic.
So this is it, approximateli 46 years of life.
But she died on her 26th year of life.

I would add that the Ascendant and Jupiter (Hyleg and Alcocoden) are giving antiscia to Saturn and contra-antiscia to Mars. The both Malefics are in sign opposition and antiscia/contra-antiscia relationship with the Ascendant and Jupiter, i.e. Hyleg and Alcocoden.
Saturn is in cadent sign, and Valens says that the cadent Saturn is prone to accidents (add to that the Mars opposition).

But ok, lets now find the Anareta.

1. Ascendant in 22 Cancer
Moon 5 + 3 + 1 = 9
Jupiter 4 + 2 = 6
Venus 3
Mars 3

2. Part of Death in 24 Sag
Jupiter 5 + 3 = 8
Sun 3
Saturn 3
Mercury 2
Moon 1

3. Ruler of POD Jupiter in 18 Cancer
Moon 5 + 3 = 8
Jupiter 4
Venus 3
Mars 3
Mercury 2+1 = 3

4. 4th house in 9Libra
Venus 5
Saturn 4+3 = 7
Mercury 3+2+1 = 6
Jupiter 3

5. Ruler of the 4th house Venus in 20AQ
Saturn 5 + 3 = 8
Mercury 3+1 = 4
Juptier 3 + 2 = 5

6. Ruler of the 4th house triplicity Saturn in 5Gemini
Mercury 5 + 3 + 2 = 10
Saturn 3
Jupiter 3 + 1 = 4

7. 8th sign from the Sun 11Virgo
Mercury 5 + 4 = 9
Venus 3 + 2 + 1 = 6
Mars 3
Moon 3

8. Ruler of the 8th sign from the Sun, Mercury in 3 AQ
Saturn 5 + 3 = 8
Mercury 3 + 2 = 5
Jupiter 3
Venus 1

Overall:
Moon 21
Jupiter 33
Venus 13
Mars 9
Sun 3
Mercury 39
Saturn 29

Mercury is Anareta!

Now we look for the directions (because we already know the time of her death) in 1969 (murdered 9 august 1969).

http://i44.tinypic.com/1z56g4n.png

These are the directions.
As you can see, in the 2nd and 6th month she had Mars directed in opposition to the Ascendant, but Mercury was directed to the conjunction with Cauda Draconis in the 8th house in 8th month two days off the murder.
Cauda Draconis was regarded as Malefic by the traditional authors.

Mercury is Anareta (the Killing planet) in her chart and coming in 8th in Cauda Draconis, did 'killed' her.
It is a sad example, but our Art is of that kind, can show the beautiful times but also the death - inescapable thing for every human being.

terrcolomba
04-17-2012, 06:18 PM
Name Darin, Bobby
born on 14 May 1936 at 05:28 (= 05:28 AM ) Place Manhattan, New York
Death by Heart Attack 20 December 1973 (Heart surgery, age 37, in Los Angeles)

lets find the Anareta.

rulership 5 points
exaltation 4
triplicity rulers 3 points
term 2
face 1

1. Ascendant in 17 taurus
Moon 3 +1 =4
Jupiter 4 + 2 = 6
Venus 5 + 3 = 8
Mars 3

2. Part of Death in 7 pisces
Jupiter 5
venus 4 + 2 + 3 = 9
mars 3
Saturn 1
Moon 3

3. Ruler of POD Jupiter in 22 saggitarius
no exaltation in saggitarius
saturn 2 + 1 +3 = 6
Jupiter 5 +3 = 8
sun 3

4. 4th house in 28 cancer
Venus 3
moon 5 + 1 +3 = 9
mars 3
Saturn 2
Jupiter 4

5. Ruler of the 4th house moon in 25 aquarius
no exaltation in aquarius
Saturn 5 +3 =8
Mercury 3
Jupiter 2 +3 = 5
moon 1

6. Ruler of the 4th house triplicity mars in 0gemini
Mercury 5 + 3 + 2 = 10
Saturn 3
Jupiter 3 + 1 = 4

7. 8th sign from the Sun 15 saggitarius
no exaltation in saggitarius
jupiter 5 +3 = 8
sun 3
saturn 3
Mercury2
Moon 1

8. Ruler of the 8th sign from the Sun, Jupiter in 22 saggitarius
no exaltation in saggitarius
saturn 2 + 1 +3 = 6
Jupiter 5 +3 = 8
sun 3

Overall:
Moon 18
Jupiter 48
Venus 20
Mars 9
Sun 9
Mercury15
Saturn 26

jupiter is Anareta!

Now we look for the directions (because we already know the time of his death) 20 December 1973

i couldn't find anything, do you have any malefic aspects in his chart in 1973 your software Omnisphericus?

JUPITERASC
04-29-2012, 12:17 AM
Omnisphericus, http://starlightknight.wordpress.com/2012/02/20/the-lives-of-the-presidents/ is an interesting and useful link I noticed on another thread provided by Wintersprite1 with discussion of Hyleg & Alcocoden :smile:

DreamingTheSeas
05-25-2012, 08:34 AM
This is my chart. I am a night born person, so i start with Moon.

-Moon in Virgo is in 10th house which is an Hylegical house.
-Mercury is the ruler of the Moon which is the natural ruler of Virgo
-Triplicity ruler is Moon
-Exaltation ruler is Mercury.
-Decan ruler is Mercury
-and Mercury makes good aspects except of that square with Part of Fortune.

So, my Hyleg is Moon and my Alcocoden is Mercury, the position and aspects of mercury gives me the highest years of protection ???

But.... Mercury is retro and uner Sun's beam, so its not in his best. So, mercury gives me the middle years of protection?

please tell me if my calculation are right

JUPITERASC
12-17-2012, 02:49 AM
4. I think there is a rational problem, as well. How good are any of these methods in predicting mass deaths, where the deaths of hundreds or even thousands of people are nearly simultaneous? If a jumbo jet blows up (cf. the Lockerbie, Scotland crash), if thousands of people are swept away by a tsunami (as has happened in recent years in Southeast Asia and Japan) or when atomic bombs were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, it just beggers credulity to think that each of these victims' alcocodens and hylegs got simultaneously activated.
That's easy to say. HOWEVER, since ninety thousand people perished in Hiroshima and approximately seventy four thousand people died in Nagasaki then that is a combined total of one hundred and sixty four thousand natal charts to analyze - including verification of time of birth. Clearly then a belief or disbelief that 'each of these victim's alcocodens and hylegs got simultaneously activated' is neither provable nor disprovable. That's because no one has delineated every single one of all of those one hundred and sixty four thousand charts

Clearly, all these people DID have one thing in common i.e. THEY WERE ALL LOCATED IN A CITY ON WHICH AN ATOMIC BOMB WAS DROPPED.

An important factor to note is that, some survived

Astrologers who have looked at the charts of survivors of large scale disasters such as plane crashes, explosions and so on have found chart patterns indicating that they had 'above average good fortune' - there were of course survivors of the bombings of Hiroshima as well as of Nagasaki and if anyone has any research material regarding any studies of their natal charts that would be relevant

waybread
12-17-2012, 03:29 AM
Have you got an event chart for the founding of Hiroshima, then? Why not post it and analyse it according to your methods?

In the meantime, I'll rely on simple common sense.

JUPITERASC
12-17-2012, 10:53 AM
Have you got an event chart for the founding of Hiroshima, then?

Posted elsewhere on this forum are comments that you are a retired academic with an academic interest in astrology and therefore are likely aware of such a chart and may well have studied one in the past. Furthermore fwiw the timing of the dropping of the weapon of mass destruction that was dropped on Hiroshima is well documented. However, just in case as you seem interested then here's a link that gives precise timing for you or anyone with a similar interest, so that you or anyone in fact, may create and view such a chart if inclined to do so

'....Hiroshima 広島市 is the capital of Hiroshima Prefecture, and the largest city in the Chūgoku region of western Honshu, the largest island of Japan. It is best known as the first city in history to be targeted by a nuclear weapon when the United States Army Air Forces (USAAF) dropped an atomic bomb aka a WEAPON OF MASS DESTRUCTION on it at 8:15 A.M. on August 6, 1945, near the end of World War II. Its name 広島 means "Wide Island"....' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiroshima

and these links are to recorded documented recollections of survivors as well as recollections of the perpetrators of the mass destruction of Hiroshima http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NF4LQaWJRDg and also http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t19kvUiHvAE
Why not post it and analyse it according to your methods?
Astrological analysis of the event chart for Hiroshima is scarcely unusual and in fact an online search would rapidly provide a vast quantity of astrological opinions on that occurrence for anyone with a need to peruse them :smile:
In the meantime, I'll rely on simple common sense.
JMO it seems likely we all rely on our own individual ideas of 'simple common sense' and obviously 'simple common sense' is a relative term

Olivia
12-28-2012, 06:53 PM
Clearly, all these people DID have one thing in common i.e. THEY WERE ALL LOCATED IN A CITY ON WHICH AN ATOMIC BOMB WAS DROPPED.



And that is the key right there, not analysing 90,000 charts for hylegs, alchocodens, primary directions that could have prematurely cut the alchocodens' years short, etc. etc.

Taking a page from Avraham the Spaniard, otherwise known as ibn Ezra, one of the first things he tells astrologers is that astrology does not contravene natural law. He also explains that a personal chart falls under quite a hierarchy of other considerations. From Nativities and Revolutions:

...The third way is the rule that comes from the effect of the Great Conjunction on each country. Thus, if within the influence of the Conjunction upon the nations war is supposed to befall a certain nation, even if many of those born in it do not have an indication of death by the sword in their nativities, when the time for war for that country comes, they will all be killed....

There's quite a lot more, but no need to quote all of it, one hopes.

JUPITERASC
12-28-2012, 08:17 PM
Clearly, all these people DID have one thing in common i.e. THEY WERE ALL LOCATED IN A CITY ON WHICH AN ATOMIC BOMB WAS DROPPED.

And that is the key right there, not analysing 90,000 charts for hylegs, alchocodens, primary directions that could have prematurely cut the alchocodens' years short, etc. etc.

Taking a page from Avraham the Spaniard, otherwise known as ibn Ezra, one of the first things he tells astrologers is that astrology does not contravene natural law. He also explains that a personal chart falls under quite a hierarchy of other considerations. From Nativities and Revolutions:

...The third way is the rule that comes from the effect of the Great Conjunction on each country. Thus, if within the influence of the Conjunction upon the nations war is supposed to befall a certain nation, even if many of those born in it do not have an indication of death by the sword in their nativities, when the time for war for that country comes, they will all be killed....

There's quite a lot more, but no need to quote all of it, one hopes.
I agree that ibn Ezra sums up the matter :smile:

- particularly

QUOTE:
'......even if many of those born in it do not have an indication of death by the sword in their nativities, when the time for war for that country comes, they will all be killed....'

babec
08-24-2013, 06:31 PM
Hello!

My Alcocoden is Mercury in X.house Virgo. Mercury is sextil with Saturn, and some program show Mercury - Sun (X. house Virgo) conjuction, some program not show that. Mercury is retrograde. So this is 46, or 78 years??

Thanks

Mona

babec
08-24-2013, 06:32 PM
Sorry, 48 or 76-78? years.

poyi
10-10-2013, 06:23 PM
From the other thread Culpeper mentioned this thread had brought me here.

Now finding Hyleg the most dignified planet in my natal chart is a bit tricky as normally I would choose between Mercury or Jupiter. But perhaps Mars is the One. Mars actually rules my Sun, Mercury, Saturn, 3rd and 8th house while mutual reception with Mercury and exalted by Moon.

What do you guys think?

So far through the good god of Googleldo, I found these readings.

http://www.bernadettebrady.com/Pdfs/Hyleg.pdf
http://www.greekmedicine.net/medical_astrology/Longevity_and_the_Hyleg.html
http://www.astrology-x-files.com/x-files/hyleg.html

As per palmistry and my Chinese astrology and 8 characters reading. I expect to live a relatively long life, but with ongoing health illness due to complete lack of fire element in the 8 characters which signifies the heart and part of circulation same as Western Leo. Which in natal Leo is the 12th house cusp. Saturn does conjunct Sun in lose aspect but under combustion, and ruler of the 5th and 6th. I have always have heart issues, if I ran a little longer distance my vision will turn golden yellow due to hypoxia and usually go to 120 bates a minute. The worst situation was when I was in severe period pain with heavy bleeding it cause my blood pressure dropped to 80/40s range with heart rate of 140s I almost collapsed at work. Had many chest pain and palpation every couple of weeks due to WPW syndrome.

I think learning about Hyleg and Alcocoden will enlighten my understanding of medical astrology.

fastlane69
10-11-2013, 06:00 AM
Can either Uranus or Pluto be an alcocoden in a chart?

dr. farr
10-11-2013, 06:10 AM
The methodology and concepts discussed on this thread all arise from Traditional Western astrology, and Uranus, Pluto (and Neptune) were not yet discovered when this technique as originated: so, the answer from the historical and Traditionalist perspective is no.

(However, just because a method was developed at one time in history, does not necessarily mean it cannot be used with additional factors at a later time: so from my perspective the answer to your question is yes: however, such an application is outside of the material allowed to be discussed on this particular Forum-which deals exclusively with Traditional Western astrological matters-and so no further comment will be made, here)

poyi
10-11-2013, 06:10 AM
This is a traditional method so modern planets were never exist to the ancient astrologers for their examination of effectiveness.

If you only use traditional planets, it will work well, I believe. When I read regular charts, I see both traditional and modern always see the same thing.

fastlane69
10-11-2013, 06:22 AM
Thank you dr. farr and poyi....

I'm sure you both know why I am asking....but I want to find my own answer so no one has to tell me. I appreciate the guidance.

My next question is this: must the alcocoden make a Ptolemaic aspect to the Hyleg, or are there exceptions?

poyi
10-11-2013, 06:29 AM
Thank you dr. farr and poyi....

I'm sure you both know why I am asking....but I want to find my own answer so no one has to tell me. I appreciate the guidance.

My next question is this: must the alcocoden make a Ptolemaic aspect to the Hyleg, or are there exceptions?

I think that will be the case as by logic, it has to have major aspect to be powerful enough to Give Life and Sustain Life. Minor aspect of course has it own value particularly in the modern practice. However, in the traditional practice, this Model is built upon such principles so therefore following the original rules. Then once you mastered the model with the original principles, you may explore further.

It is the same with weather prediction and gaming prediction from what I heard. There are rules for each predictive model and rules are developed for capturing the trend of energy flow.

fastlane69
10-11-2013, 07:07 AM
I am studying the paper written by Bernadette Brady on this matter. I have my moon at 6 degrees 34 minutes Capricorn second house, in novile aspect to Venus at 17 degrees 14 minutes Aquarius. I am not sure if the minor aspect of moon/Venus applies in my case as Venus is ruler of term degree at 6 degrees Capricorn; her paper does not state exactly what aspect they must make, but instead just says an aspect. If this is not the case, then I would look to the Ascendant, as my Mars at 5 degrees 22 minutes Leo trines my Ascendant at 27 degrees 25 minutes Scorpio. The Ascendant would make more sense, and is in a grand trine to my Sun at 27 degrees 55 minutes Pisces, fourth house, in conjunction to Jupiter at 26 degrees 10 minutes Pisces also in fourth.

fastlane69
10-11-2013, 07:37 AM
Ah, silly me....just discovered my software does traditional.....duh....:whistling:

JUPITERASC
10-11-2013, 05:28 PM
I am studying the paper written by Bernadette Brady on this matter. I have my moon at 6 degrees 34 minutes Capricorn second house, in novile aspect to Venus at 17 degrees 14 minutes Aquarius. I am not sure if the minor aspect of moon/Venus applies in my case as Venus is ruler of term degree at 6 degrees Capricorn; her paper does not state exactly what aspect they must make, but instead just says an aspect. If this is not the case, then I would look to the Ascendant, as my Mars at 5 degrees 22 minutes Leo trines my Ascendant at 27 degrees 25 minutes Scorpio. The Ascendant would make more sense, and is in a grand trine to my Sun at 27 degrees 55 minutes Pisces, fourth house, in conjunction to Jupiter at 26 degrees 10 minutes Pisces also in fourth.
Novile is not a Ptolemaic aspect :smile:

Ptolemy distinguished four major aspects between zodiac signs:
sextile, square, trine, and opposition

William Lilly included the conjunction
as well as partile or platick as discussed at http://www.renaissanceastrology.com/aspects.html

fastlane69
10-13-2013, 04:48 AM
Novile is not a Ptolemaic aspect :smile:

Ptolemy distinguished four major aspects between zodiac signs:
sextile, square, trine, and opposition

William Lilly included the conjunction
as well as partile or platick as discussed at http://www.renaissanceastrology.com/aspects.html

Thank you Jupiter for your guidance....
I did not understand this is quite different from modern practice. Please forgive my novice ability in these matters....but I am learning quickly. :biggrin:

fastlane69
10-14-2013, 02:12 AM
From the other thread Culpeper mentioned this thread had brought me here.

Now finding Hyleg the most dignified planet in my natal chart is a bit tricky as normally I would choose between Mercury or Jupiter. But perhaps Mars is the One. Mars actually rules my Sun, Mercury, Saturn, 3rd and 8th house while mutual reception with Mercury and exalted by Moon.

What do you guys think?

42893

So far through the good god of Googleldo, I found these readings.

http://www.bernadettebrady.com/Pdfs/Hyleg.pdf
http://www.greekmedicine.net/medical_astrology/Longevity_and_the_Hyleg.html
http://www.astrology-x-files.com/x-files/hyleg.html

As per palmistry and my Chinese astrology and 8 characters reading. I expect to live a relatively long life, but with ongoing health illness due to complete lack of fire element in the 8 characters which signifies the heart and part of circulation same as Western Leo. Which in natal Leo is the 12th house cusp. Saturn does conjunct Sun in lose aspect but under combustion, and ruler of the 5th and 6th. I have always have heart issues, if I ran a little longer distance my vision will turn golden yellow due to hypoxia and usually go to 120 bates a minute. The worst situation was when I was in severe period pain with heavy bleeding it cause my blood pressure dropped to 80/40s range with heart rate of 140s I almost collapsed at work. Had many chest pain and palpation every couple of weeks due to WPW syndrome.

I think learning about Hyleg and Alcocoden will enlighten my understanding of medical astrology.

Poyi,

I use Janus 4 software for my calculations. It also does traditional charts I have discovered in the last couple of days. According to Janus, your Hyleg is Mars according to Ptolemy, and Moon according to Bonatti. I know I am new at this, but would put my money on Mars as your Hyleg. Others may disagree, that's fine. If Mars, then Mercury is surely your Alcocoden. You have Venus in sextile to Mercury. Mercury in Scorpio gives middle years. Plus lesser years and middle months for Venus.

poyi
10-14-2013, 02:57 AM
Thank you very much for checking that for me I also thought Mars as Hyleg in my chart. From personal observation when transit Uranus (modern outer) at antisicon of natal 25 degrees Mars in Virgo I had this minor in damage but major in life changing accident. I am fascinated and think that there is room for further research crossing both traditional and modern methods like what dr Farr always does. I have now trying to always read a chart in both traditional and modern way to look for common points.

There are a lot of death prediction methods developed and used by many different cultural background of ancient astrologers. With the right attitude, any tool can be useful for positive purposes. This is highly subjective as you can see the recent arguments, but simply as part of our life to learn about right and wrong. We all need to find our own answers.

Thank you once again of using your software to help me to find my Hyleg.

dr. farr
10-14-2013, 03:04 AM
Although I no longer use the accepted (Western) traditional methods to estimate hyleg, I will state that in the past I found the Bonatti method superior to Ptolemy in estimating the "giver of life", ie, in giving (or coming close to giving) the planet as hyleg which in "real life" did seem to really have those properties relative to the native...

poyi
10-14-2013, 03:09 AM
So dr Farr you reckon Moon is the Hyleg in my chart instead? but then the complex relationship of moon exalted Mars is a tricky one to be clear cut rather Ptolemy or Bonatti got it more right. I guess my natal planets made it even more confusing which method to be more effective.

dr. farr
10-14-2013, 03:14 AM
Right-hence my dropping these various techniques (for what I consider to be simpler and more accurate ones) several years back-however, that is off topic for this thread.

poyi
10-14-2013, 03:18 AM
Come on! dr Farr just spit it out will you?! What is the method then lol? :D

dr. farr
10-14-2013, 03:25 AM
Pars hyleg + Foundation of the horoscope + ashtakavarga analysis (and that's all I will say, here:bandit:)...

fastlane69
10-14-2013, 03:25 AM
Right-hence my dropping these various techniques (for what I consider to be simpler and more accurate ones) several years back-however, that is off topic for this thread.

Would you consider starting a new thread for this topic using modern methods?

poyi
10-14-2013, 03:26 AM
Pars hyleg + Foundation of the horoscope + ashtakavarga analysis (and that's all I will say, here:bandit:)...

:bandit: I see...thank you

fastlane69
10-14-2013, 03:50 AM
Thank you very much for checking that for me I also thought Mars as Hyleg in my chart. From personal observation when transit Uranus (modern outer) at antisicon of natal 25 degrees Mars in Virgo I had this minor in damage but major in life changing accident. I am fascinated and think that there is room for further research crossing both traditional and modern methods like what dr Farr always does. I have now trying to always read a chart in both traditional and modern way to look for common points.

There are a lot of death prediction methods developed and used by many different cultural background of ancient astrologers. With the right attitude, any tool can be useful for positive purposes. This is highly subjective as you can see the recent arguments, but simply as part of our life to learn about right and wrong. We all need to find our own answers.

Thank you once again of using your software to help me to find my Hyleg.

Very welcome....anytime.
The reason I give Mars as Hyleg in the traditional chart...
Mars at term ruler and scores a 2 in my software. Also angular in first house.
Moon at triplicity ruler but in detriment in fifth, a succedent house. Moon scores -2 in my software.
If Moon is Hyleg then trine from Venus at home in Libra. Venus scores a 5, but no dignity in Hyleg's place. That leaves Mars or Mercury. Mars exalted and term ruler, so...Mercury no dignity in Hyleg's place. You make the call. Moon below, succedent, feminine...this is where the art comes in, and I don't have the talent....yet.

fastlane69
10-14-2013, 04:08 AM
But if Mars Alcocoden, the greater years for Mars, and lesser years and months for Venus.

fastlane69
10-14-2013, 04:25 AM
Right-hence my dropping these various techniques (for what I consider to be simpler and more accurate ones) several years back-however, that is off topic for this thread.

Or we could just use the Magic 8-ball...:biggrin:

dr. farr
10-14-2013, 04:58 AM
Oh Yeah:w00t:!!

dr. farr
10-14-2013, 05:02 AM
Would you consider starting a new thread for this topic using modern methods?

I might do that in the near future.
These methods though, are not modern at all-the Pars hyleg and Foundation-of-the-horoscope (they are both "Lots") go back at least to around the 8th century (and both are briefly mentioned by Bonatti although not used by him in his hyleg calculations), and ashtakavarga-a Vedic evaulative method-goes back at least to the begiining of the CE (if in fact not as far back as the Vedas themselves)!

SammyJo
12-02-2013, 12:18 PM
I'm very confused on the hyleg for this chart. (15. 04.1965, 3:30am, GMT+1; 44N49, 20E28)

Birth is nocturnal, so it should be the Moon, which in fact is in a hylegical house (7th) and in female quadrant (although not in female sign), however the Moon is peregrine, so does it qualify? I read that the Hyleg should not be in any way debilitated, so a peregrine body just seems inappropriate.

If this doesn't matter and I take the Moon regardless, the only options for alcochoden are Venus and Mercury, yes? But which do I choose? Venus in opposition to Moon is very large orb; Mercury on the other hand in a partil opposition. So I would take Mercury because the aspect is more precise, is that correct?

The sun could be Hyleg as is also angular (1st house), exalted (so in a healthy position), masculine sign. But it combusts the planet which would be alcochoden (venus) in a partil aspect. Besides that, this is the only aspect the sun makes, unless we count a very wide orb opposition to the Moon - which in this case can't be alcochoden anyway, as it has no dignity in the degree of the Sun.

So, do I take the Moon or Sun as Hyleg? Or neither? Which planet do I choose as alcochoden?

http://i39.tinypic.com/1zyy0zt.gif

SammyJo
12-02-2013, 12:37 PM
Oh and forgot to mention that the Sun, as can be seen, is ruler of the 6th house, and I read that the ruler of a malefic house (6,8,12, sometimes 4th is also taken as bad) cannot be Hyleg.

Konrad
12-02-2013, 05:08 PM
I would use the ASC in this chart, neither the Sun or the Moon are in any state to qualify. I don't pay much attention to the whole Alcocoden thing, but the Hyleg is important as its directions will not only show the death and illness of the native, but also their general state and life experience.

SammyJo
12-02-2013, 08:46 PM
If we take the Asc. as Hyleg, then the alcochoden is Jupiter. But Jupiter has no Ptolomy aspects, so obviously it can't be alcochoden. Besides, Jupiter is practically on Algol, can it even qualify as such?

I am very very frustrated with this chart...Grrr!

Konrad
12-02-2013, 09:07 PM
I think you are complicating the matter a little too much. The person is alive - they have a Hyleg - it can really only be the ASC here since the Sun and the Moon are not in places effective enough to give them this role, and regardless of the zodiac used, Jupiter is the bound lord and aspects the ASC. Algol has very little to do with choosing a Hyleg.

SammyJo
12-02-2013, 09:50 PM
Please don't get me wrong, I certainly appreciate the input and I may be overcomplicating/overthinking it (not that I'm aware), but I have no idea how you arrived at your conclusion(s). For instance I don't see why you reject both the Sun and Moon as potential Hyleg. Ok on the Moon I am somewhat clearer, for reasons I stated myself (still not sure if my thinking is correct though), but for the Sun I don't really get it: it's in an angular, hence hylegical house; it's exalted; no attacks from malefics, receives the necessary aspect from a planet with essential dignity in the relevant sign (minor, but still)...my only qualm was it being ruler of the 6th house.

To be as short as possible, I would like to know what convinces you that the ascendant should be used as Hyleg?

JUPITERASC
12-02-2013, 10:12 PM
Please don't get me wrong, I certainly appreciate the input and I may be overcomplicating/overthinking it (not that I'm aware), but I have no idea how you arrived at your conclusion(s). For instance I don't see why you reject both the Sun and Moon as potential Hyleg. Ok on the Moon I am somewhat clearer, for reasons I stated myself (still not sure if my thinking is correct though), but for the Sun I don't really get it: it's in an angular, hence hylegical house; it's exalted; no attacks from malefics, receives the necessary aspect from a planet with essential dignity in the relevant sign (minor, but still)...my only qualm was it being ruler of the 6th house.

To be as short as possible, I would like to know what convinces you that the ascendant should be used as Hyleg?
There are rules :smile:

Here is the summary of the planets and points which can be potential Hyleg:

Quote:
In Day charts, we’re looking for the:
• Sun above the horizon in a masculine quarter (11th or 10th), or
• Sun above the horizon in a feminine quarter (7th, 9th) in a masculine sign, or
• Moon below the horizon in a feminine quarter (4th, 5th), or
• Moon below the horizon in a masculine quarter (1st, 2nd, 3rd) in a feminine sign

In Night charts, we’re looking for the:
• Moon above the horizon in a feminine quarter (9th, 7th), or
• Moon above the horizon in a masculine quarter (10th, 11th) in a feminine sign, or
• Sun below the horizon in a masculine quarter (1st, 2nd), or
• Sun below the horizon in a feminine quarter (4th or 5th) in a masculine sign


Potential hylegs are the Sun, Moon, Part of Fortune, Asc and SAN. Or instead of using
the PoF, Asc and SAN itself, you are to take the Lord of the place or the Almuten of the
place. Some instructions advise you to look for the Almuten of all these places.
As a general rule, the potential Hyleg must aspect at least one of its dignity rulers.
Ptolemy appears to be the only exception in this, preferring a planet with two or more
dignities and no aspect over a planet in aspect with only one dignity.
Alchabitius rejected the Moon as hyleg if she was under the Sun’s beams. Heliodorus
rejected any planet as hyleg if it was USB (under the sun beams)

The Hyleg is the giver of life. Once it is found, we need to look for the Alcochoden
or giver of years.

JUPITERASC
12-02-2013, 10:16 PM
My quote is from the OP :smile:
This conversation here
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46232
inspired me to open a thread were I/we would try to say more about this medieval technique of the "Giver of Life" (Hyleg) and the "Giver of Years" (Alcocoden), which according to the medieavls should give the amount of years of life to the native.

I will try firstly to give the example of the Hyleg and Alcocoden in the chart of the recently died pop diva Whitney Houston.

But first lets see what is Hyleg and Alcocoden.

Here is what Bernadettte Brady says about H & A:


So, Hyleg and Alcocoden are showing the Vital Life Force of the native. They show how much years in life do you have according to the 'Esse' or the condition of your body and soul. With the modern medicine it seems out that this Esse is prolonged, but we will see how in the case of Whitney Houston this is almost exact.
If the nativity dies from a serial killer, or a car accident H & A does not count, they do not show the accidents, they show the condition of the body and soul and accordingly how much years one have.

Here is the summary of the planets and points which can be potential Hylegs:

Quote:
In Day charts, we’re looking for the:
• Sun above the horizon in a masculine quarter (11th or 10th), or
• Sun above the horizon in a feminine quarter (7th, 9th) in a masculine sign, or
• Moon below the horizon in a feminine quarter (4th, 5th), or
• Moon below the horizon in a masculine quarter (1st, 2nd, 3rd) in a feminine sign

In Night charts, we’re looking for the:
• Moon above the horizon in a feminine quarter (9th, 7th), or
• Moon above the horizon in a masculine quarter (10th, 11th) in a feminine sign, or
• Sun below the horizon in a masculine quarter (1st, 2nd), or
• Sun below the horizon in a feminine quarter (4th or 5th) in a masculine sign


Potential hylegs are the Sun, Moon, Part of Fortune, Asc and SAN. Or instead of using
the PoF, Asc and SAN itself, you are to take the Lord of the place or the Almuten of the
place. Some instructions advise you to look for the Almuten of all these places.
As a general rule, the potential Hyleg must aspect at least one of its dignity rulers.
Ptolemy appears to be the only exception in this, preferring a planet with two or more
dignities and no aspect over a planet in aspect with only one dignity.
Alchabitius rejected the Moon as hyleg if she was under the Sun’s beams. Heliodorus
rejected any planet as hyleg if it was USB (under the sun beams)

The Hyleg is the giver of life. Once it is found, we need to look for the Alcochoden
or giver of years.

(taken from the group Angelicus Merlin).


Lets take the example of Whitney Houston.
26865

Her chart is a night chart so we first look for a potential Hyleg in the Moon.
Moon is under the Horizon in a night chart, so it can not be Hyleg.
Then we go to the Sun (in a day chart we first go with the Sun), the Sun is in cadent 6th house so it can not be Hyleg too.
Than we look at the Syzygy, or the last lunation prior the birth. In the Whitney's chart it was a Full Moon prior the birth so the chart is so called Preventional and we take the Pars Fortuna as potential Hyleg.
It is in 4th in Cancer.
We now look at the dispositors to see which dispositor takes the most dignity points at the degree in which the PoF is.
For that reason we take the dignity table, I will use here a table with triplicities according to Dorotheus and terms according to the egiptians.
Domicil ruler takes 5 points, exaltation ruler 4, triplicity ruler 3, term ruler 2 and face ruler 1 point.
Moon, domicil ruler = 5 points
Jupiter exaltation ruler 4 points
Mars, triplicity ruler 3 points
Venus, term ruler 2 points
Venus, face ruler 1 point.

Next we look if the Moon (as having the most points in that degree in which PoF is) is making some classical (conjunction, sextile, square, trine, opposition) aspect to the PoF. She is making a square to the Fortuna but it is in wide orbs (although in the moiety). Jupiter is out of orb. Venus is not in aspect. Mars is making a partile (exact) aspect to the PoF and we will take him instead of the Moon (because it is in partile aspect).

So, Part Of Fortune is a Hyleg in Whitney's chart and Mars is Alcocoden.

Next we look at the years table of the planets potential Alcocodens:
26866

We see that the minor years of Mars are 15, Middle Years 40,5 and major years 66.
Mars is angular but in very week sign position (in Exile) so we will take its Middle years (40.5).
Next, we look at the aspects which Mars receives from the benefics and malefics.
If benefic aspects the Alcocoden with Con, sextile or trine adds its minor years as years and its middle years as months, weeks or days (according to the position in which lies).
If Malefic aspects the Alcocoden, subtract from the Alcocoden with its minor years and middle years as months, weeks or days.

Mars is aspecting the other malefic Saturn, but with trine (so this not subtract years because it is benevolent aspect).
Mars is making opposition with Jupiter but out of orb, and with opposition so this does not add to the years.
Mars is making a sextile to Venus and she can add her minor years.
So we add Venus' minor years (8), and her middle years as days (45), because she is cadent and combust. If she was in good position we would add her middle eyars as months.

So we have,
40.5years + 8years + 45 days = 48 years 7 months and 15 days.
Whitney lived 48 years 6 months and 2 days.

dr. farr
12-03-2013, 03:02 AM
For me, I use the Pars hyleg, the Pars Vitae and the Foundation of the Horoscope to determine the hyleg question.

Konrad
12-03-2013, 06:45 AM
Please don't get me wrong, I certainly appreciate the input and I may be overcomplicating/overthinking it (not that I'm aware), but I have no idea how you arrived at your conclusion(s). For instance I don't see why you reject both the Sun and Moon as potential Hyleg. Ok on the Moon I am somewhat clearer, for reasons I stated myself (still not sure if my thinking is correct though), but for the Sun I don't really get it: it's in an angular, hence hylegical house; it's exalted; no attacks from malefics, receives the necessary aspect from a planet with essential dignity in the relevant sign (minor, but still)...my only qualm was it being ruler of the 6th house.

To be as short as possible, I would like to know what convinces you that the ascendant should be used as Hyleg?

Because I don't use quadrant houses, so the Sun is in 3rd sign (remember I am not using the Ptolemaic Tropical Zodiac). Again though, the simplest thing would be to use the Sun as the releaser (subject him to Primary Directions) and try to track the native's life from the order of the time-lords - you will soon find your Hyleg.

SammyJo
12-03-2013, 10:46 AM
The rules of course. I read the whole thread and I am applying the rules. According to the rules, first look to the Moon in a nocturnal chart. The Moon qualifies: it is above the horizon, 7th house, feminine quarter, aspected by two planets which have dignities in its degree, not USB. Perfect fit, right? But whoops, the Moon is peregrine! Presumably, Hyleg cannot be debilitated, so we must renounce the Moon. Back to the drawing board.

Next we look at the Sun. According to the rules the Sun qualifies: is under the horizon, 1st house, masculine quarter, in aspect with a planet which has dignity in its degree. Even if it had no aspect, Abu Ali states: "When the Sun is chosen as Hyleg and is in Aries or Leo and none of the rulers of the five dignities aspect it, it will be both Hyleg and Alcocoden." That's it then, yes? Well, maybe not. The Sun rules the 6th house, so according to some authors it cannot be Hyleg!

Is this true? I can't seem to find more information on it, so I am ASKING YOU.

For the moment, let's assume it is certain, so the Sun too drops out of the race.

According to Lilly, if neither the Sun nor Moon may be accepted as hyleg then in a nocturnal chart "consider the planet that has most essential dignities in these three places:
-The degree of the Moon in the nativity

-The place of the luminary (Sun or Moon) found above the earth in the Full Moon preceding the nativity

-The place of the Part of Fortune in the nativity
If this planet falls in an hylegiacal house accept it as hyleg.

If not, then use the ascendant if the birth was preceded by a New Moon.

If the birth was preceded by a Full Moon, take the Part of Fortune if it falls in an hylegiacal house; if not, use the ascendant."

If I understand what he is saying here then:
a) in the degree of the Moon most dignity goes to Venus, then Saturn. But Venus is combust, hyleg cannot be debilitated, so we forget about Venus.
b) no need to take the place of the luminary (Sun or Moon) found above the earth in the Full Moon preceding the nativity because the chart is conjunctional.
c) if we were to take the PoF hyleg would be Mercury. But Mercury is retro and USB, so it is debilitated and cannot be hyleg. Besides PoF does not fall into a hylegical house, so it has to be disregarded for that reason as well.

At this point we either accept Saturn as Hyleg, or we look at the Asc.
The planet with most dignity at the degree of the Asc. is convincingly Jupiter. But Jupiter is on Algol. Again we must remember the rule that states the hyleg cannot be hyleg if it is debilitated. Lilly does in fact take Algol in consideration, so Jupiter must be disqualified. Also all the other planets that have dignity in the degree of the Ascendant, as they are either combust or retro, and as such debilitated, hence unacceptable for hyleg.

If I got all this right (which I am not sure of for a single moment), then we are left with Saturn as hyleg. However, Saturn rules the 12th house so it too is unacceptable - according to the rules.

Even if we don't go through all this procedure, we can see right away that in this chart there is not a single planet except the Sun that is not debilitated one way or another. If we stick to the rule that hyleg cannot be debilitated in order to be hyleg we have nothing left to choose from! Except the Sun. But again - the Sun rules the 6th house, so can it even qualify?

At this point I am completely lost. So I am asking YOU to please explain.
Btw, english is not my native language so please forgive my mistakes and ignorance.

Konrad
12-03-2013, 11:20 AM
At this point I am completely lost. So I am asking YOU to please explain. Btw, english is not my native language so please forgive my mistakes and ignorance.

The best advice I can give for the moment is to ignore house rulerships completely for a time and read charts without them. You may find, like I did, that you don't need them to delineate a person's chart. You may not. Either way, you will have a more subtle grasp of how the planets are managing each person's life.

SammyJo
12-03-2013, 02:36 PM
Interesting advice...don't know how that would work though.
I could always use Porphyry house system, in which case the Asc, would be hyleg. Bonatti says:
If the Sun and the Moon cannot be Hyleg and the chart is Conjunctional, then take the
degree of the Ascendant. And if any of the above rulers of the Ascendant aspect the
Ascendant, it will be the Hyleg.

Mar's is ruler of triplicity and has face and is the only planet with essential dignity in the degree of the Asc that aspects it. In that case Mars is alcocoden. However this case means that the native should by now be DEAD. When all is calculated, the native should have lived at most 40 and a half years, even less considering years are taken away due to aspect from Saturn. But the native is not dead, not even sick, so something is wrong here.

fastlane69
12-03-2013, 02:59 PM
Interesting advice...don't know how that would work though.
I could always use Porphyry house system, in which case the Asc, would be hyleg. Bonatti says:
If the Sun and the Moon cannot be Hyleg and the chart is Conjunctional, then take the
degree of the Ascendant. And if any of the above rulers of the Ascendant aspect the
Ascendant, it will be the Hyleg.

Mar's is ruler of triplicity and has face and is the only planet with essential dignity in the degree of the Asc that aspects it. In that case Mars is alcocoden. However this case means that the native should by now be DEAD. When all is calculated, the native should have lived at most 40 and a half years, even less considering years are taken away due to aspect from Saturn. But the native is not dead, not even sick, so something is wrong here.

My software shows Moon as Hyleg.

fastlane69
12-03-2013, 03:07 PM
And if so, then Mercury would be Alcocoden in my opinion since it is in opposition to Moon, and dignified in the Moon's place as trip and term ruler.

SammyJo
12-03-2013, 04:09 PM
Moon would be hyleg if it wasn't peregrine and if you use Placidus. If you use Porphyry (which many known astrologers swear by) then the Moon can in no way be hyleg, because it is peregrine AND on the cusp of the 8th house, so not even in a hylegical position.

After analyzing everything, I am becoming more and more convinced we should take the last syzygy. Bonatti says:

"If all of the above fail, then look to see if any of the four rulers of the Conjunction aspect the degree of the Conjunction. For Conjunctional charts only."

Abu Ali also says the same and specifies: "if the degree of the prenatal lunation is in an angle, or succedent (house) from the angle and if one of the five dignitaries makes aspect to it, then choose it as hyleg."

This native has the last syzygy a new moon at 12.03 Aries. Now it should be considered which planet has the most essential dignity at the degree of the prenatal New Moon.

Here we have three options: Jupiter, Venus and Sun. Jupiter makes no aspect, so we disregard him. Sun and Venus make an aspect; Venus has more dignity, but the Sun is closer in degrees, so I would choose it.

If I understand correctly, this would then make the Sun alcocoden and it would at least explain why the native is not yet dead.

But if I were to take Konrad's advice and ignore all this, then I would choose the Sun as both hyleg and alcocoden (according to Abu Ali), in which case the native should be dead in 2 years, because that is when the sun meets a malefic (squares Saturn and Asc. plus makes conjunction with the north node).

Who ever has a different opinion and/or wishes to correct my possibly wrong train of thought - please do!

tsmall
12-04-2013, 12:24 AM
But if I were to take Konrad's advice and ignore all this, then I would choose the Sun as both hyleg and alcocoden (according to Abu Ali), in which case the native should be dead in 2 years, because that is when the sun meets a malefic (squares Saturn and Asc. plus makes conjunction with the north node).

Is this via Primary directions??? And even if so, just because you think Sun is alcocoden and it is directed to the square of Saturn, as well as the ASC doesn't mean this is a critical time. Which, btw, is all any calculation of the hyleg can do...point to a critical time. It is a clear misunderstanding that the hyleg/alcocoden method is a method for predicting death.

dr. farr, I never learned how to calculate the aneretta. Do you have advice here?

Who ever has a different opinion and/or wishes to correct my possibly wrong train of thought - please do!

I won't pretend to have done all the calculations (and they are legion. Chasing the hyleg is the traditional equivalent of the holy grail, and each astrologer had his own way of doing so) but...

In the early Hellenistic era, probably around the same time that both zodiacs aligned and western was close to Vedic, there were only three options for predominator (the one who directs.) Sun, Moon, and ASC. As you have already clearly shown why neither light can be predominator, you are left with ASC, and that leaves Jupiter as alcocoden.

May I ask...why are we calculating this for this chart?? Is there a specific reason?

I already pointed someone to this thread earlier, but if you go to post #46, there is a way to look at whether or not the native will survive past two years.

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=66443

I have asked repeatedly for this thread to be split, but, well. Not so much.

Zonark
12-04-2013, 01:19 AM
I think I've done this correctly. The Hyleg of my chart is the Ascendant and the Alcocoden is Saturn conjunct, strongly placed in Capricorn with 2 strong benefic aspects and in an angular house, however that house is Aries, Saturn is retrograde and receives a partile opposition from the Moon so my lifeforce should only have about 40-50 years.

SammyJo
12-04-2013, 02:48 PM
//As you have already clearly shown why neither light can be predominator, you are left with ASC, and that leaves Jupiter as alcocoden.//

There is no possible way that Jupiter is alcocoden if Asc is hyleg as Jupiter does NOT aspect the Asc and that is one of the main rules.

//The Alcoccoden is the planet that forms a Ptolemaic aspect to the Hyleg and has the
greatest dignity in the Hyleg’s place. Thus one looks to the planets that are forming aspects to the Hyleg. If more than one planet aspects the Hyleg and has dignity there, then it is the planet that scores the most points. If no planet aspects the hyleg then it is not the hyleg //

So it's not possible for Jupiter to be alcocoden if the Asc. is hyleg as it does not aspect it! At least all authors are in agreement on this point. Namely, if the potential hyleg is not aspected by one of the dignitaties in its degree, then it is not the hyleg. Only exceptions are the Sun in Aries or Leo - when in lack of aspecting planet the Sun becomes both hyleg and alcocoden; just the same when Moon is in Cancer or Taurus - if other considerations are in check (for example that it is not in a cadent house and such).

If, in this chart, the Asc. is taken as hyleg (not first choice this being a conjunctional chart), the remaining options are Venus and Mars as alcocoden. Venus makes no aspect, so we are left with Mars. However, the problem here is that when calculation is done - the native should have been long dead with such alcocoden! Mars is retro, occidental, peregrine and in opposition to a malefic (Saturn), no helping aspects to benefics. So when I say the native should have been long dead I really mean LONG dead by all parameters.

Obviously the Asc. cannot be hyleg.

//May I ask...why are we calculating this for this chart?? Is there a specific reason?//

Why not? What is the problem? Is not the point to learn? The chart is most intriguing, complex and mysterious. Oh but it is not a celebrity! A famous person! So what? Common people are often much more interesting than any celebrity. Besides, we mostly meet common people, friends, relatives, neighbors...their lives will touch ours, not those of some celebrity. And if nothing else, the main reason should be that no one here so far (including myself) has been able to decipher it and provide decisive, practical demonstration of the process/methodology used in arriving to a firm and convincing conclusion. It is easy to do charts where all is obvious. But true learning is from the hard and ambiguous ones.

tsmall
12-04-2013, 03:08 PM
//As you have already clearly shown why neither light can be predominator, you are left with ASC, and that leaves Jupiter as alcocoden.//

There is no possible way that Jupiter is alcocoden if Asc is hyleg as Jupiter does NOT aspect the Asc and that is one of the main rules.

Actually, Jupiter regards the ASC by sextile.

//The Alcoccoden is the planet that forms a Ptolemaic aspect to the Hyleg and has the

Correct, and Ptolemaic aspects are made by sign, not just orb. True, Jupiter is separating from the sextile with the ASC, but can "see" it none the less.


So it's not possible for Jupiter to be alcocoden if the Asc. is hyleg as it does not aspect it! At least all authors are in agreement on this point.

See my point above.

If, in this chart, the Asc. is taken as hyleg (not first choice this being a conjunctional chart), the remaining options are Venus and Mars as alcocoden. Venus makes no aspect, so we are left with Mars. However, the problem here is that when calculation is done - the native should have been long dead with such alcocoden! Mars is retro, occidental, peregrine and in opposition to a malefic (Saturn), no helping aspects to benefics. So when I say the native should have been long dead I really mean LONG dead by all parameters.

Obviously the Asc. cannot be hyleg.

Either that, or Mars cannot be alcocoden.

//May I ask...why are we calculating this for this chart?? Is there a specific reason?//

Why not? What is the problem? Is not the point to learn? The chart is most intriguing, complex and mysterious. Oh but it is not a celebrity! A famous person! So what? Common people are often much more interesting than any celebrity. Besides, we mostly meet common people, friends, relatives, neighbors...their lives will touch ours, not those of some celebrity. And if nothing else, the main reason should be that no one here so far (including myself) has been able to decipher it and provide decisive, practical demonstration of the process/methodology used in arriving to a firm and convincing conclusion. It is easy to do charts where all is obvious. But true learning is from the hard and ambiguous ones.

I apologize if my question led you to become defensive. It is apparent you feel very strongly about this. I'm unclear how a simple question could lead to the conclusion that I thought only celebrity charts were worthy of study, but that is an erroneous leap. My question was based on the number of times that people have gotten carried away with this method and either wanted to use it for predicting thier own deaths, or became scared that they would die at a spefic time.

SammyJo
12-04-2013, 04:22 PM
Yes, they can "see" each other but that seems too much of a stretch when there are much stronger and intensive things going on. I am very dubious of this "seeing" and don't think it should be applied in an otherwise strictly defined system. Maybe for some other interpretations "seeing" can be used, but in prediction and finding the particulars such as hyleg and alcocoden...well, I would go with the more precise aspects. Of course, that might just be me.

//I apologize if my question led you to become defensive. It is apparent you feel very strongly about this. I'm unclear how a simple question could lead to the conclusion that I thought only celebrity charts were worthy of study, but that is an erroneous leap. My question was based on the number of times that people have gotten carried away with this method and either wanted to use it for predicting thier own deaths, or became scared that they would die at a spefic time.//

Um...no need to apologize, I am sorry if I gave off some wrong impression. I am certainly not accusing you of anything, least of all that you might think this or that. I don't know you, I have no idea what you think. Just used the celebrities as example as people usually most favor the charts of the known.

No, this is not about predicting someone's death. (I never look at my own chart, hahaha). It's about a chart that baffles me and I feel challenged. It's not the only one, but I don't think it appropriate to post 5 at the same time, is all. Would like to get some security on it discussing with others, as I feel that is the best way I learn.

tsmall
12-04-2013, 04:43 PM
Yes, they can "see" each other but that seems too much of a stretch when there are much stronger and intensive things going on. I am very dubious of this "seeing" and don't think it should be applied in an otherwise strictly defined system. Maybe for some other interpretations "seeing" can be used, but in prediction and finding the particulars such as hyleg and alcocoden...well, I would go with the more precise aspects. Of course, that might just be me.

Well, ok. I know it may appear "inelegant" but regard/witnessing/aspect by sign is the foundation of astrology. It is the very reason there are certain places the hyleg cannot be, as in it must be in a sign (note, not house, we count the signs from the ASC for this) that can regard the ASC. Moon can't be hyleg in this chart, not because it is peregrine, but because it is in the 8th sign.

SammyJo
12-04-2013, 07:59 PM
Well yes, I mentioned the Moon being on the cusp of 8th a few posts up.

Do you think we should disqualify the Sun just because it RULES the 6th house? I can't find any definitive answer on that in literature, but it is the reason I was reluctant to accept it in the first place. Maybe that is my mistake?

Arena
12-29-2014, 12:09 AM
Thank you all for this interesting discussion. Did any of you think of checking out those AA rated chart and find the hyleg and alcoden in the sidereal zodiac since there is substantial evidence that the ancient and traditional astrologers used the sidereal zodiac?

tikana
12-29-2014, 12:24 AM
ya know

Amy Winehouse's chart is known birthtime I dont know if 18 gemini is rectified or taken from birth certificate but I came up with 17 gemini.. you guys can calculate her alcocoden and see if it matches her age when she died.

just throwing an idea
T

Kaiousei no Senshi
12-29-2014, 01:23 AM
Did any of you think of checking out those AA rated chart and find the hyleg and alcoden in the sidereal zodiac since there is substantial evidence that the ancient and traditional astrologers used the sidereal zodiac?

What evidence is that? This may not be the thread for it, but I think there may be a mistake here since in the early Hellenistic period (my time may be off), the sidereal and tropical zodiacs were basically the same.

Amy Winehouse's chart is known birthtime I dont know if 18 gemini is rectified or taken from birth certificate but I came up with 17 gemini.. you guys can calculate her alcocoden and see if it matches her age when she died.

just throwing an idea

An interesting one, and Winehouse's is easy. Her hyleg is the Moon and the alcochodon is Saturn. Saturn is peregrine and in the Sixth house, so would likely be attributed it's lesser years of 30. Saturn is unassisted by benefic planets and unafflicted by malefic planets, so there wouldn't be any addition or subtraction of years.

It's kind of rare for people to die before their alcochdon runs out. Unless they are involved in some accident, but cocaine is a hell of a drug.

JUPITERASC
12-29-2014, 10:29 AM
Thank you all for this interesting discussion.
Did any of you think of checking out those AA rated chart and find the hyleg and alcoden in the sidereal zodiac
since there is substantial evidence that the ancient and traditional astrologers used the sidereal zodiac?

Astrologers are getting good results with Tropical AND Sidereal

HOWEVER

There IS an interesting comment by Gregory Rozek on the VETTIUS VALENS Sidereal/Tropical issue

QUOTE

'...The positions of both Mercury and Saturn fall in different signs than in the natale described by Valens.
If one would want to see the same sign placements of planets,
one should display the chart in sidereal zodiac (common Lahiri works).
It doesn’t necessarily mean that Valens used the sidereal zodiac!
By the typical contemporary astrologers this could be explained by the fact,
that the positions of planets assessed by ancient authors were very often a few degrees off, comparing to modern calculations.
Especially for Mercury, which orbit was the hardest to observe due to proximity of the Sun.
For Mercury and Saturn the 2 degrees here changes a lot – because they change signs there.
Though it’s still intriguing that everything falls to “right place” in sidereal… '


'....But if you’d inspect the Anthology of Valens clearly,
you’ll see that he regards the zero degree Aries as placed 8 degrees before the Vernal Point.
This was a very popular view in the early Hellenistic astrology,
and it comes directly from the Babylonian sources.
Both Greek and Babylonian material we now have access to utilized only few versions of placing of the vernal Point.
The two most popular were 8° Aries and 10° Aries.
So we have authors using this or that starting point of the Zodiac, but it is always a whole number of degrees.
But based on that we can’t call it a Sidereal astrology and not a Tropical one.....'


'....How the system was seen at these time lies somewhere inbetween the Tropical and Sidereal or stellar zodiac tied to the stars.
But because these two zodiacs coincided tightly at that time it is impossible put one or the other in the Ancient Greek’s mouths.
Becuase that would be like forcing them to separate the two conjoined things and deciding which one they regard as a superior one and diminish the other.
This is later and contemporary astrologers’ problem, not the Ancients’....' http://gregoryrozek.com/en/valens-and-retrograde-planets/

Arena
12-29-2014, 01:50 PM
Yes I do know that astrologers are getting good results with both tropical and sidereal. It is just that I find the sidereal seems to speak louder to me, more clearly. And the whole sign houses are a dime. So I guess I am more into the old traditional methods now, discovering a lot by that.

I do use the outer modern planets to guide me as well though, although not as rulers of signs, more like co-influencing effect on charts.

But since I see that Omni is using traditional methods, and since I consider him a real gem to this forum - I am a bit surprised that he does not consider whole sign houses (although alcab was also used) and he is not considering comparing the charts with sidereal as well (since there are lots of substantial evidence that it was the zodiac used in those olden days) ... just to see if the number of years would be more accurately measured that way.

I would like to see it done in this thread - not with any intention of having another sidereal vs. tropical debate or heated discussion :) ... but rather to just look into it to see if it will give us some insights. I might take on the project myself with help from you traditionalists if I will have time in coming weeks.

Konrad
12-29-2014, 02:06 PM
Yes, the notion that the Hellenes were predominately using Ptolemaic Tropical zodiac is simply wrong. They were using Babylonian tables which were Sidereal. Valens himself used something other than the Ptolemaic Tropical zodiac to measure his longitudes as evidenced by his comments on the position of the Equinox. Of course, this doesn't make either zodiac any more 'right' than the other, but we should at least try to split the significations derived from the Sidereal from those that are Tropical. As far as I can see, that potentially doesn't leave Tropical astrologers much to work with, but they've been fine so far. I guess the next few generations will really see the difference as we get a larger and larger degree dufference

zoidsoft
12-30-2014, 02:48 AM
As to which zodiac Valens used, I think it is important to think philosophically about such statements as "equally rising", "equal power" and the ascensions of the zoidia. While some statements suggest sidereal thinking, it is a mathematical fact that zoidia are equally rising (or have the same ascensional times) only in a tropical zodiac of 0 degrees. It is also however true that there are some mathematical misconceptions about the ascensions as shown in the tables which conspicuously round off to 60/180 degrees. The actual correct values of course depend upon latitude.

One has to be careful about the statements about system A, or system B (offsetting the zodiac by 8, 10 or even 15 degrees). Valens often states things that he doesn't actually do (such as loosing of the bond to the trigon instead of the opposition). I have gone through several of Valens chart examples in Delphic Oracle (software that I wrote) and even though many examples have planets off by several degrees, often some planets are conspicuously correct if one considers 0 degrees (tropical).

The problem is that in Valens time, the issue of zodiac (sidereal or tropical) was not well defined, so although they used star positions to help fix positions, their thinking was actually a mix of both.

Konrad
12-30-2014, 07:42 AM
I agree, there was definitely a mixture of both ideas, but when we consider measurements according to longitude, it is clear that the Equinox was not considered the first degree of Aries. The accuracy of theit calculations compared to modern software doesn't change that.

zoidsoft
12-30-2014, 08:20 AM
...but when we consider measurements according to longitude, it is clear that the Equinox was not considered the first degree of Aries...

Then we must admit that astrologers of the past such as Paulus Alexandrinus were illogical to suggest the phenomena of "equally rising" since only a tropical zodiac fixed at 0 Aries is capable of creating a condition where 2 zoidia have the same ascensional times such as Aries - Pisces, Taurus - Aquarius, etc...

Konrad
12-30-2014, 08:40 AM
Then we must admit that astrologers of the past such as Paulus Alexandrinus were illogical to suggest the phenomena of "equally rising" since only a tropical zodiac fixed at 0 Aries is capable of creating a condition where 2 zoidia have the same ascensional times such as Aries - Pisces, Taurus - Aquarius, etc...

Yes, I'm aware of that. I have no problem in pointing out mistakes of past authors while bearing in mind that I am fortunate to exist in a time if bountiful source material and ease of accurate calculation. That said, I was specifically talking of Valens with my comments about the Equinix and also I do acknowledge tge Hellenes were mixing apples and oranges with their use of equal risings and antiscia and such things. As I said though, if you choose a Tropical zodiac and its mathematical peculiarities, then you have a hard time explaining other sign attributes.

zuojun1991
01-29-2016, 11:42 AM
Can hyleg and alcocoden be one planet?
My sun is in Leo 3 degree before ascendant, so it is hyleg. And with no aspect to term ruler saturn (but it's Aquarius , 15°21‘ orb). So my longevity is 120 yrs? Really?

zoidsoft
01-29-2016, 05:23 PM
Can hyleg and alcocoden be one planet?
My sun is in Leo 3 degree before ascendant, so it is hyleg. And with no aspect to term ruler saturn (but it's Aquarius , 15°21‘ orb). So my longevity is 120 yrs? Really?

Haly would accept the Sun as both hyleg and alchocoden given it was in Aries or Leo and in the MC (and maybe the ascendant?). But the hyleg and alchocoden are meant to show vitality / constitution or in other words the maximum life span. The bounds form the constitution whereas the hyleg is the life force. If you have a strong vitality but weak constitution or vice versa, it will shorten that span. Presumably the reason for using bounds as constitution is because a boundary forms a container to hold that vitality in place. One might say that the hyleg represents the spirit and the bound lord represents the soul (in aristotelian terms).

What's missing here is "unless the rays of a malefic should cut the debt [owed to the native] short". In other words, you can be in great health, but if you get run over by a bus... So check the hyleg against the anaretic rays. I prefer to look at these as danger points since there is lots of author disagreement, so I set up the primary directions to look at the main hyleg candidates (Asc, Sun, Moon, PNL, Fortune) and then check malefic rays against all of them (keeping in mind the most likely candidates).

zuojun1991
01-30-2016, 02:13 AM
Haly would accept the Sun as both hyleg and alchocoden given it was in Aries or Leo and in the MC (and maybe the ascendant?). But the hyleg and alchocoden are meant to show vitality / constitution or in other words the maximum life span. The bounds form the constitution whereas the hyleg is the life force. If you have a strong vitality but weak constitution or vice versa, it will shorten that span. Presumably the reason for using bounds as constitution is because a boundary forms a container to hold that vitality in place. One might say that the hyleg represents the spirit and the bound lord represents the soul (in aristotelian terms).

What's missing here is "unless the rays of a malefic should cut the debt [owed to the native] short". In other words, you can be in great health, but if you get run over by a bus... So check the hyleg against the anaretic rays. I prefer to look at these as danger points since there is lots of author disagreement, so I set up the primary directions to look at the main hyleg candidates (Asc, Sun, Moon, PNL, Fortune) and then check malefic rays against all of them (keeping in mind the most likely candidates).

Thanks for your answer! Really appreciate it.
I agree to pay attention to all of Asc, Sun, Moon, PNL, Fortune. But some guys in this post before said hyleg and alcocoden show the least longevity which can be prolonged by modern medical treatment. I'm a little confused. And bounds forming constitution never showed up in this longevity topic!
If my sun can't be hyleg, neither my masculine moon in 1st house. I'm conjunctional, so Asc can be hyleg, which conjucts lord sun. Sun is alcocoden, which conjuncts Jupiter (combustion) and Moon (rays). Sun gives the most longevity. Though Jupiter is combustion and moon rays, jupiter has triplicity and moon conjuncts Regulus and both in first house. I assume they can at least add some yrs.
So my longevity could be 120+? Or even 150+?
Virgo Fortune in 1st house conjuncts virgo Mercury (ruler, joys) and Venus. Can they add some more? BTW, Aquarius saturn in 6th house aspects no planet.

JUPITERASC
01-31-2016, 10:12 AM
Have added my chart.


Chart needs to be uploaded :smile:
HOW TO ATTACH A CHART TO YOUR POST ON THE FORUM http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12126

zuojun1991
01-31-2016, 10:51 AM
Thanks, uploaded this time

zuojun1991
02-18-2016, 12:40 PM
Hi,Curtis
Just purchased your Delphi Oracle, it's amazing!!! I'm so excited.
The transit Uranus in 9th house trines my ascendent Leo sun just these days. And the profection goes to my 1ST house this year. I'm becoming a little muscular and long trip is calling all the time.

zoidsoft
02-18-2016, 12:44 PM
There are video's on my youtube channel showing how I use the program researching various charts:

http://www.youtube.com/zoidsoft

zuojun1991
02-18-2016, 12:56 PM
Thanks :smile::happy:

DeLaSoul
02-25-2016, 12:35 AM
I'm confused. how is Amy Winehouse's moon the hyleg if its in detriment?

Hsn1983
08-31-2016, 11:59 PM
wow great post
I have my Ascendant 25 cancer diurnal chart sun at 9 Aries can my sun be both hyleg and alcododron? Mars is in the same sign 26 Aries but maybe out of orb not conjoined to my sun,
Any one please help me

JUPITERASC
09-01-2016, 01:16 AM
wow great post
I have my Ascendant 25 cancer diurnal chart sun at 9 Aries can my sun be both hyleg and alcododron?
Mars is in the same sign 26 Aries but maybe out of orb not conjoined to my sun,
Any one please help me


INSTRUCTIONS HOW TO ATTACH A CHART
TO YOUR POST ON THE FORUM http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12126 :smile:

Fer
03-12-2017, 03:00 AM
I have a question about this topic. Can someone help me?

tsmall
03-14-2017, 03:22 PM
I have a question about this topic. Can someone help me?

Whether or not someone can help you depends on the question.

Hsn1983
09-22-2017, 11:43 AM
In my chart sun can be hyleg and alcocoden but mars is in the same sign aries is. Mars the alcocoden in this chart?
Thanks

JUPITERASC
01-09-2018, 08:22 PM
I can not decide if Mars is mine Hyleg or Mercury. Help please -.-


INSTRUCTIONS HOW TO ATTACH A CHART :smile:
TO YOUR POST ON THE FORUM http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12126

petosiris
05-15-2018, 02:51 PM
One has to be careful about the statements about system A, or system B

Take care children, sidereal longitudes are dangerous! The equally rising table comes from the Babylonians. As you said, they are clearly round off for a klima and schematicism in a sidereal zodiac. It does not mean that they were tropical astrologers, just that they were also observing the seasons and daylight. (That means they were taking seasonal/''tropical'' considerations in a sidereal zodiac. The Babylonians calculated the rising times not for the calculation of horoscope, but for calendrical reasons according to Francesca Rochberg.) For example in the sidereal zodiac today Aquarius and Pisces are counter-antiscia (like-ascending) and Aries and Leo are antiscia (like-empowered). Those are extensions of the aspect doctrine which also has like-engirding signs like Aries and Scorpio. I remind that the antiscia the majority of Hellenistic astrologers used is clearly non-tropical - having Gemini and Leo as antiscia rather than Cancer and Gemini, because the equinox was thought somewhere within Aries, rather than at the interstice.

As for the calculations of ancient horoscopes - From the first century to the first half of the fourth there are no more than one or two data points that could be interpreted as tropical longitudes, and these are just as likely to be errors. - p. 17 - Jones, A. (2010). Ancient rejection and adoption of Ptolemy’s frame of reference for longitudes. In Ptolemy in Perspective (pp. 11-44). Springer, Dordrecht.

I am sure one error is in Valens, as I was only able to get the tropical chart. However it is clear from the rest that he is using sidereal longitudes.

3. It just seems to me, in death prediction, that a wrong prediction is simply not good enough. This isn't like predicting whether someone will win the lottery or get the plum job. Death is final, finito; and a doomsday date would fill most people with a lot of anxiety. I have seen several members on this and another forum have the bejeesus scared out of them by a "friend" playing Sorcerer's Apprentice with their charts in this manner. For this and other ethical reasons, several astrological organizations prohibit their members from engaging in death prediction among their clients or forum members.

Is it ethical to predict marriage, children and good times for one who is going to be under threat in a certain period before it?

JUPITERASC
05-15-2018, 03:14 PM
Take care children, sidereal longitudes are dangerous! The equally rising table comes from the Babylonians. As you said, they are clearly round off for schematicism in a sidereal zodiac. It does not mean that they were tropical astrologers, just that they were also observing the seasons and daylight. (That means they were taking seasonal/''tropical'' considerations in a sidereal zodiac.) For example in the sidereal zodiac today Aquarius and Pisces are counter-antiscia (like-ascending) and Aries and Leo are antiscia (like-empowered). Those are extensions of the aspect doctrine which also has like-engirding signs like Aries and Scorpio. I remind that the antiscia the majority of Hellenistic astrologers used is clearly non-tropical - having Gemini and Leo as antiscia rather than Cancer and Gemini, because the equinox was thought somewhere within Aries, rather than as the beginning of it.

As for the calculations of ancient horoscopes - From the first century to the first half of the fourth there are no more than one or two data points that could be interpreted as tropical longitudes, and these are just as likely to be errors. - p. 17 - Jones, A. (2010). Ancient rejection and adoption of Ptolemy’s frame of reference for longitudes. In Ptolemy in Perspective (pp. 11-44). Springer, Dordrecht.

I am sure one error is in Valens, as I was only able to get the tropical chart. However it is clear from the rest that he is using sidereal longitudes.

Is it ethical to predict marriage, children and good times for one who is going to be under threat in a certain period before it?


The furore raised by MORALITY OF PREDICTING DEATH thread at https://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64628&highlight=morality
inspired the creation of
Relationships and Morality of Predicting Those :smile:
In Natal As Well As Horary Astrology at https://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=68195&highlight=morality

Paul_ decided to Close his Account and states his reasons
on the MORALITY OF PREDICTING DEATH thread
however, many of his comments no longer remain
having been deleted
nevertheless
I reiterated Paul_'s remarks that
it is not unusual for members to request information regarding
astrological prediction of their possible future relationship prospects.
Asking a relationship Horary question
is a popular method of seeking answers/advice to such questions
Obviously then, as Paul_ highlighted
because anyone may well be justifiably depressed/upset
if they were told that their future relationship prospects are nil/negligible/unlikely
- and given that not everyone believes in astrology
and many are simply curious -
and since many have implicit belief that the astrologer is qualified to tell them
their future relationship prospects
THEN
(A) are astrologers morally justified
in predicting that future relationship prospects are nil/negligible/unlikely
if that is their opinion of the chart in question?
AND IF
an astrologer may have led a client to believe in a definite prospect/likelihood of a relationship
within the next few months or so
AND THEN NO SUCH PROSPECTS OCCURRED
and the client became depressed
Then
(B) are astrologers morally justified in predicting
that future relationship prospects are excellent?

MissScorpio
09-07-2019, 12:21 PM
Hi there. May I ask what we do if the Alcocoden makes no aspect whatsoever to the Hyleg? The aspect that scores the highest point is triplicty i.e - Mars has triplicity in Pisces, but Mars is in weak position in 12th house and also by sign? What then if there is no aspect, may someone advise? Thanks in advance.