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Rebel Uranian
02-12-2012, 10:24 PM
I'm actually fine and sometimes even happy with being isolated and depressed most of the time for some odd reason.

Sanguine should be bad. There is something quite wrong with you if you are all cheerful all the time. Air is just too superficial for me. ***** happiness. It is overrated.

tsmall
02-12-2012, 11:08 PM
Sanguine should be bad. There is something quite wrong with you if you are all cheerful all the time. Air is just too superficial for me. ***** happiness. It is overrated.

Are you talking melancholy as in depression, or melancholy as in temperament? And out of curiosity, why is there something quite wrong with being cheerful all the time? I admit, I have know a person (or maybe two) who was cheerful all the time, and my suspicious nature made me wonder if it was an "act"...but yeah, there really are people like that. Air is superficial? In what way? Do you associate air with Sanguine?

BTW, I have a really good friend from high school who was born only a couple of days after me. He has the same Libra (air) stellium that I do, only instead of in the 1st, it's in the 8th. Want to guess how "sanguine" he is?

serafin5
02-12-2012, 11:24 PM
Sanguine should be bad. There is something quite wrong with you if you are all cheerful all the time. Air is just too superficial for me. ***** happiness. It is overrated.

Rebel, you crack me up!!!:w00t: Spoken like a true cynic (sp?).

S5

JUPITERASC
02-12-2012, 11:32 PM
Sanguine should be bad. There is something quite wrong with you if you are all cheerful all the time. Air is just too superficial for me. ***** happiness. It is overrated.
...and Nostalgia just ain't what it used to be!

"Aristotle's Elements and the Zodiac: Astrologers' Error?"- that's the title on Therese Hamilton's thread at this link http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6547

here's a snippet of it: :smile:

........"distribution of triplicity elements as currently used by astrologers disagree with Aristotle's arrangement where Fire is opposite Water and Air is opposite Earth. (Fire-dry-Earth-cold-Water-wet-Air-hot-Fire arranged clockwise.) .....A little consideration shows that the Stoic element-triplicity correlations make more sense in relation to the planetary lords of the signs.

Two examples: Saturn is said to be cold and dry. Saturn is lord of one air sign (Aquarius) and is exalted in another (Libra). But in the Aristotelian system the air signs are hot and wet. In the Stoic system air is cold.

Jupiter was a bringer of rain. In the Aristotelian system Jupiter's primary sign of Sagittarius is hot and dry. In the Stoic system fire is simply hot"

Rebel Uranian
02-13-2012, 12:10 AM
Are you talking melancholy as in depression, or melancholy as in temperament? And out of curiosity, why is there something quite wrong with being cheerful all the time? I admit, I have know a person (or maybe two) who was cheerful all the time, and my suspicious nature made me wonder if it was an "act"...but yeah, there really are people like that. Air is superficial? In what way? Do you associate air with Sanguine?

BTW, I have a really good friend from high school who was born only a couple of days after me. He has the same Libra (air) stellium that I do, only instead of in the 1st, it's in the 8th. Want to guess how "sanguine" he is?

I mean melancholy as in temperament, but as melancholy is a depressive temperament, both could work. There is a lot wrong with being cheerful all the time. It is just irritating for some reason. A lot of people like to see people happy for some reason. I don't like to pretend to be happy when I don't want to be happy. I'm not saying everyone should be depressed all the time...

Air is sanguine according to the element system currently used in astrology. Air is hot and moist, and sanguine is hot and moist. But JUPITERASC pointed out something interesting.

Kaiousei no Senshi
02-13-2012, 01:15 AM
Melancholy is "bad" because earth doesn't naturally rise.

filly
02-13-2012, 02:55 AM
Interesting that the word "melancholy" made me think of the six of Cups from the Tarot deck. For it is mostly the state it represents.
And to answer to your question one may take it's Dignified meaning and the Reversed meaning. As it can be soothing as an escape or damaging for escaping way too long.

Upright:

The Six of Cups is a card of childhood, nostalgia, nave happiness or sadness. You want to return to the memories of your past, whether as a child, teenager or adult. Oftentimes, though, these memories are indeed a thing of the past and reflect aspects of your life that have since vanished. You may feel that the only way to connect to this is to escape into the past where you can reflect on your beautiful memories or caress your wounds, instead of dealing with current challenges. This is fine if you are simply taking a walk down memory lane but it is important that you live in the present and accept your current circumstances rather than always living in the past.

Reversed:

he Six of Cups reversed may indicate that you are clinging on to your past. There may be issues from your past that you have not yet fully processed. It is important to explore the memories of your past but do not get stuck there. Your ideas and beliefs that were established in the past may be prohibiting your progress. Use your past as a guide for your future, and focus on living in the present.

Rebel Uranian
02-13-2012, 08:37 PM
Melancholy is "bad" because earth doesn't naturally rise.

So cold = bad and hot = good, or dry = bad and moist = good? The latter makes more sense considering the "malefics" are dry, but I think the former is what you mean because hot is described as outwards and cold is described as inwards, at least once by JUPITERASC.

Lightrider
02-13-2012, 09:33 PM
So cold = bad and hot = good, or dry = bad and moist = good? The latter makes more sense considering the "malefics" are dry, but I think the former is what you mean because hot is described as outwards and cold is described as inwards, at least once by JUPITERASC.

Choleric, Sanguine = Masculine/Light/"good"

Melancholic, Phlegmatic = Feminine/Dark/"bad"

i think?

Kaiousei no Senshi
02-13-2012, 10:30 PM
So cold = bad and hot = good, or dry = bad and moist = good? The latter makes more sense considering the "malefics" are dry, but I think the former is what you mean because hot is described as outwards and cold is described as inwards, at least once by JUPITERASC.

Both coldness and dryness are qualities that deny growth, melancholy is both and Earth does not naturally rise. This is why melancholy is both a pessimistic temperament and is generally viewed negatively. Phlegm on the other hand is cold and wet so is seen to be somewhat better than melancholy, but people generally prefer melancholy to phlegm due to its connotations.

Choleric, Sanguine = Masculine/Light/"good"

Melancholic, Phlegmatic = Feminine/Dark/"bad"

i think?

Not really. If there was a real hierarchy of "good to bad" temperaments it would look like this:
Sanguine
Choler
Phlegm
Melancholy

Sanguine has both prolific qualities and air naturally rises. Choler and Phlegm each have one prolific quality, but fire rises naturally whereas water does not. Melancholy has both destructive qualities and does not naturally rise.

Though, if the list was in order of social preference it would look like this:
Sanguine
Melancholy
Choler
Phlegm
:lol:

Lightrider
02-14-2012, 12:45 AM
I read something about temperaments somewhere (i wish i had the link)

It says both Melancholic and Choleric are considered "bad" tempers since they are both very quick to anger. What's different about the two is the way they handle anger. Cholerics tend to explode immediately while melancholics tend to turn anger inwards, becoming depressed in the process.

On the other hand, Sanguines and Phlegms are considered "good" because they are just easier to get along with. They are not very set on their own goals as cholerics and melancholics. Sanguines have a very difficult time focusing while Phlegms are just too hard to get them moving. Cholerics are self motivated and are good at motivating other people. Melancholics are motivated by fear and self loathing and this would explain a lot about "melancholy is bad".

tsmall
02-14-2012, 02:04 AM
So cold = bad and hot = good, or dry = bad and moist = good? The latter makes more sense considering the "malefics" are dry, but I think the former is what you mean because hot is described as outwards and cold is described as inwards, at least once by JUPITERASC.

Rebel, first I have to say that my flip question about sanguine being associated with air has been answered by my own reading, lol. The way I currently understand it, astrology was defined by an agrarian culture--farmers, if you will. So they viewed the qualities in terms of what promotes or destroys life and growth, of plants and animals. Moist and warm promote growth, while extremes of temperature (too hot or too cold) and dryness deny growth. So warm and moist are best. The melancholic temperament is both cold and dry and is associated with earth...think cool sand, or rocks. So this person is likely to be less emotional (dry=no tears, for one) and more rigid (stone/earth). A melancholic personality lends itself to facts and objective reality, and a lot of patience and perseverance (like a stone, it endures.)

In my newly learning opinion, though, it would be a very rare person who is strictly one temperament or another, and while one will surely predominate, there should usually be something that will combine with melancholy?

From On The Heavenly Spheres, Avelar & Ribeiro, p17.

...combined with the sanguine...the melancholic becomes more sociable, bold, and joyful, exhibiting a temperament that is less pessimistic and defensive. This combination is considered measured as it combines opposite qualities...a choleric undertone, it acquires greater vitality, sociability, and determination. Nonetheless, the predominance of the dry quality confers onto it a solitary and individualistic attitude...its fusion with the phlegmatic temperament, the predominance of the cold quality is emphasized, which reinforces the tendency toward reserve and withdrawal. This produces behavior similar to that of the pure melancholic type, albeit a bit more flexible and adaptable.

As to the planets, Saturn is too cold and dry, being outermost, and Mars is very hot and dry, being close to the Sun. This is why these planets got their bad reputations. Jupiter lies between, and so is temperate--warm and moist. Venus is warm and moist because it lies between Sun and Moon. Mercury can be both, because it too is close to the Sun, but falls between the Sun and the Moon, which is moist.

As far as melancholy being bad...well, if sanguines want to laugh, play and never get anything finished, and cholerics want to argue, be bossy and get angry, and phlegmatics are too wishy-washy to make up their minds from one day to the next, don't you suppose there needs to be someone who can rationally, logically analyze a situation and accomplish something?