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tsmall
01-20-2012, 12:04 AM
Yes, another newbie question. But, it seems to me that when we are talking about dignity and peregrine status, a planet either has dignity or it doesn't (perigrine.) Isn't being in fall or being in detriment a type of dignity? Dignity = honor. Planets in domicile or in exaltation are dignified in a positive manner. Wouldn't planets in fall or detriment also be "dignified" just in a negative manner?

sandstone
01-20-2012, 12:18 AM
i think they switch it and call the planets in fall and detriment essential debility..

Moog
01-20-2012, 12:21 AM
Is it okay if I just post you to Altair astrology?

http://altairastrology.wordpress.com/2008/03/03/understanding-the-three-debilities-of-detriment-fall-and-being-perigrine/

tsmall
01-20-2012, 02:16 AM
Is it okay if I just post you to Altair astrology?

http://altairastrology.wordpress.com/2008/03/03/understanding-the-three-debilities-of-detriment-fall-and-being-perigrine/

Thanks Moog, it's what I thought. I am reading a new astro book, and thought today that the author said a specific planet in it's fall was also peregrine (which is why this stuck in my head) but can't at the moment find the exact reference. I'll look at it again. Maybe I misunderstood...

Kaiousei no Senshi
01-20-2012, 03:20 AM
The Altair Astrology article is actually incorrect in this. Peregrine planets can indeed be in the signs of their Detriment and Fall. The exact example that William Lilly uses in defining this term is with Saturn in Aries (his Fall).

Debility stacks the same way dignity does.

tsmall
01-20-2012, 03:33 AM
The Altair Astrology article is actually incorrect in this. Peregrine planets can indeed be in the signs of their Detriment and Fall. The exact example that William Lilly uses in defining this term is with Saturn in Aries (his Fall).

Debility stacks the same way dignity does.

Can you point me to the Lilly example? I have a hard copy of CA...is it there? I'm not questioning what you say, I just want to read it. Also, if a debilitated planet can be peregrine, how come a dignified planet can't? Again, this is not arguement, it's curiosity...

JUPITERASC
01-20-2012, 03:35 AM
Can you point me to the Lilly example? I have a hard copy of CA...is it there? I'm not questioning what you say, I just want to read it. Also, if a debilitated planet can be perigrine, how come a dignified planet can't? Again, this is not argument, it's curiosity...
Because a peregrine planet has no dignity in any of its places :smile:

QUOTE
"A Planet is then said to be Peregrine, when he is in the degrees of any Sign wherein he hath no essential dignity, As Saturn in the tenth degree of Aries, that Sign being not his House, Exaltation, or of his Triplicity, or he having in that degree neither Term or Face, he is then said to be Peregrine; had he been in 27, 28, &c. of Aries, he could not be termed Peregrine, because then he is in his own Term". (Lilly, CA, p.112)

Kaiousei no Senshi
01-20-2012, 03:41 AM
Can you point me to the Lilly example? I have a hard copy of CA...is it there?

Well, I hope it's the same page number, but in my copy it's pg 112.

Also, if a debilitated planet can be perigrine, how come a dignified planet can't?

Yeah, what JupiterAsc said. The definition of a peregrine planet is a planet without dignity. Planets can be in dignity and debilitity simulatenously, but when they are completely without dignity then they're peregrine and further debilitated.

dr. farr
01-20-2012, 03:46 AM
Anciently, peregrine meant no dignity AND no detriment; around the time of Guido Bonatti this doctrine changed to being simply, no dignity: hence the later motto that "debility/detriment cannot save from peregrine". So the doctrine of being "isolated", "unconnected" (not connected by dignity NOR by debility), ie, "pergerine" (an unconnected wanderer) changed (about 800 or so years ago) into simply not having any dignity in its place.

(Personal note: while I can go (somewhat) with the original concept of "peregrine", I consider the concept as expressed/defined over the past 800 years, to be invalid, and (as I have posted in other threads here on AW), I reject the doctrine in practice)

tsmall
01-20-2012, 03:50 AM
Thanks guys and gals. :smile: It's page 112 in my copy too. Guess I should read more and question less...

tsmall
01-20-2012, 03:57 AM
Anciently, peregrine meant no dignity AND no detriment; around the time of Guido Bonatti this doctrine changed to being simply, no dignity: hence the later motto that "debility/detriment cannot save from peregrine". So the doctrine of being "isolated", "unconnected" (not connected by dignity NOR by debility), ie, "pergerine" (an unconnected wanderer) changed (about 800 or so years ago) into simply not having any dignity in its place.

(Personal note: while I can go (somewhat) with the original concept of "peregrine", I consider the concept as expressed/defined over the past 800 years, to be invalid, and (as I have posted in other threads here on AW), I reject the doctrine in practice)

Ah, so dr. farr, while you personally don't look at peregrine status (I have seen some of your other posts about this) would you agree that it makes no sense that a planet in fall or deriment could also be peregrine? I see this as being a dignity of sorts, and so therefore not peregrine...but, yup, noob here, lol.

JUPITERASC
01-20-2012, 03:59 AM
Anciently, peregrine meant no dignity AND no detriment; around the time of Guido Bonatti this doctrine changed to being simply, no dignity: hence the later motto that "debility/detriment cannot save from peregrine". So the doctrine of being "isolated", "unconnected" (not connected by dignity NOR by debility), ie, "pergerine" (an unconnected wanderer) changed (about 800 or so years ago) into simply not having any dignity in its place.

(Personal note: while I can go (somewhat) with the original concept of "peregrine", I consider the concept as expressed/defined over the past 800 years, to be invalid, and (as I have posted in other threads here on AW), I reject the doctrine in practice)
Indeed I recall the discussion. One of the examples being Sun at 24 degrees Libra (Tropical) although Peregrine and in Fall, nevertheless the Sun being conjunct the benefic fixed star Spica the apparently parlous condition of that celestial body is entirely ameliorated.

Of course members such as for example, Monk, may have certain reservations concerning fixed stars that are not directly on the path of the ecliptic and therefore prefer parans. :smile:

Kaiousei no Senshi
01-20-2012, 04:04 AM
Anciently, peregrine meant no dignity AND no detriment; around the time of Guido Bonatti this doctrine changed to being simply, no dignity: hence the later motto that "debility/detriment cannot save from peregrine".

Can I get a source on this? Since my usual sources for thing are Lilly (Renaissance) and Bonatii (Mideval), and Ptolemy doesn't appear to make any mention of it at first glance, I seem to be unable to look into this further given my current authorities. I am severly lacking in the Muslim authors. :(

dr. farr
01-20-2012, 04:07 AM
Right-I am not trying to be controversial (flaming) in this, I am just expressing my OWN understanding of the philosophy behind the concept of peregrine (ie, unconnected) and the original use of the concept, and then the change (so long ago) and adoption of a now-doctrinal new (relatively new-800 years:pinched:!) understanding and application of that concept.

Certainly the "official doctrine" is no dignity=peregrine, ie, that debility/detriment does not save from the peregrine state; and for all students of Traditionalist astrological practice, this is what you should accept as the Traditional teaching regarding this matter.

JUPITERASC
01-20-2012, 04:22 AM
Deborah Houlding states: "Peregrine, a Latin word meaning 'alien' or 'foreigner' derived from 'pereger' = beyond the borders, 'ager' = land, i.e., 'beyond one's own land' ...In old English, to 'peregrinate' means to wander far from home.

In symbolic terms, a peregrine planet describes a drifter - someone with no title or stake in his or her environment. Though it's helpful to think in terms of property, the comparison lends itself to the general tenor of the chart. Property owners tend to view drifters with suspicion, and distrust their lack of stability. Peregrine planets share this dubious reputation so that in questions of theft a peregrine planet in an angle or the 2nd house is a classic indication of the significator of the thief. (CA. p.112)

Under normal circumstances a peregrine planet lacks the necessary strength to convey lasting benefit. Its position of weakness can be alleviated, however, if it is strongly dignified accidentally or if it forms a mutual reception with a stronger planet"

IMO a planet that is direct, swift in motion, angular, free from combustion, conjunct a beneficial fixed star such as Spica (as previously mentioned with the example of Peregrine Sun at 24 degrees Libra) or in classical aspect to Jupiter or Venus would indicate that the planet is accidentally dignified :smile:

dr. farr
01-20-2012, 05:10 AM
Ptolemy makes no mention of the peregrine state either in the "Tetrabiblos" nor in the "Almagest".

Reference to peregrine as being devoid of dignity AND debility/detriment, is found in Abu Mashar's "Great Introduction" (and, I think also in the "Abbreviation"), in Paulus Alexandrianus, in Maximus (late Classical-era authors), and in Thabit ibn Qurra's "Ghayat el-Kawakeb' ("Way or Path of the Planets")
I seem to remember (but would have to check specifically) peregrine is also defined in this way in Valen's "Anthology" and (perhaps) in Maternus "Mathesis".

Al-Biruni ("Book of Instruction"), c 1058 AD, seems to give a definition of peregrine somewhat more in line with the later definitional framework of that state:
(pg. 82) "...if, however, it is not in a favorable situation, it is said to be "peregrine", while if either in its detriment or its fall. calamity is added to the alien situation."
Here, Al-Biruni seems to hold that the peregrine state (as just being devoid of dignities) is rather neutral, but coupled with also having detriment or fall, it is very disruptive/harmful to the influence of the planet: this is definitely a different attitude regarding peregrine than that held by later authors, who consider the state itself (just being devoid of dignities) as quite negative.

Manly P. Hall (20th century) makes reference to (unspecified) early authors who defined peregrine as "without essential dignity OR debility/detriment", and Modernist Charles Carter makes a similar historical definition of this term (Note: the peregrine state is not recognized in Modernist astrology)

Moog
01-20-2012, 11:37 AM
Thanks guys and gals. :smile: It's page 112 in my copy too. Guess I should read more and question less...

Questioning people who might know is often a much faster way to find something out.

It's not like we refrain from using google and just let things we really want to know fall into our lives :smile:

Vista
01-20-2012, 05:31 PM
Anciently, peregrine meant no dignity AND no detriment; around the time of Guido Bonatti this doctrine changed to being simply, no dignity: hence the later motto that "debility/detriment cannot save from peregrine". So the doctrine of being "isolated", "unconnected" (not connected by dignity NOR by debility), ie, "pergerine" (an unconnected wanderer) changed (about 800 or so years ago) into simply not having any dignity in its place.

(Personal note: while I can go (somewhat) with the original concept of "peregrine", I consider the concept as expressed/defined over the past 800 years, to be invalid, and (as I have posted in other threads here on AW), I reject the doctrine in practice)


Would mutual reception with another planet elevate a peregrine planet or make it less debilitated?

Kaiousei no Senshi
01-20-2012, 06:08 PM
Reference to peregrine as being devoid of dignity AND debility/detriment, is found in Abu Mashar's "Great Introduction" (and, I think also in the "Abbreviation"), in Paulus Alexandrianus, in Maximus (late Classical-era authors), and in Thabit ibn Qurra's "Ghayat el-Kawakeb' ("Way or Path of the Planets")
I seem to remember (but would have to check specifically) peregrine is also defined in this way in Valen's "Anthology" and (perhaps) in Maternus "Mathesis".

Page number please. Some of those books are quite large. :(

Kaiousei no Senshi
01-20-2012, 10:44 PM
I see this as being a dignity of sorts, and so therefore not peregrine...but, yup, noob here, lol.

This wasn't directed towards me, but I wanted to respond to it anyway.

Detriment and Fall are not dignities, they're debilities. A totally different class of things. Planets can be in mixed amounts of dignities and debilities at any one time. Mars in Cancer is in his Fall, but also his Triplicity at night, for example. Traditionally, the dignities and debilities of planets were considered to be like their houses. Mars in Aries was in his own house, Mars in Capricorn was the honored guest in Saturn's house, Mars in Pisces at Night was like being in a member of his family's house, etc.

On the other hands, Mars in Libra is like being in the house of his enemy, things don't make sense to Mars due his inability to relate to his environment. In this particular line of thought, Peregrine planets just need to be without dignity because the image of a peregrine planet is a wandering foreigner. There's no philosophical reason why peregrine and debility should be mutually exclusive since planets can both be in a place that injures them and foreign at the same time. Planets will often have places of dignity in their debilities that serve as temporary forts through hostile or foreign land, but without those protections, they become worse off.

It appears to come off as somewhat redundant, I grant you, but there's ample difference between the Sun just being peregrine in Taurus (here he's an out of place foreigner) and being both peregrine and in Detriment in Aquarius (where he's both an out of place foreigner and in an environment he can't do well in), so it is like a double dose. Not only am I in a place I don't belong, but now this place is hurting me!

tsmall
01-20-2012, 11:18 PM
This wasn't directed towards me, but I wanted to respond to it anyway.

Detriment and Fall are not dignities, they're debilities. A totally different class of things. Planets can be in mixed amounts of dignities and debilities at any one time. Mars in Cancer is in his Fall, but also his Triplicity at night, for example. Traditionally, the dignities and debilities of planets were considered to be like their houses. Mars in Aries was in his own house, Mars in Capricorn was the honored guest in Saturn's house, Mars in Pisces at Night was like being in a member of his family's house, etc.

On the other hands, Mars in Libra is like being in the house of his enemy, things don't make sense to Mars due his inability to relate to his environment. In this particular line of thought, Peregrine planets just need to be without dignity because the image of a peregrine planet is a wandering foreigner. There's no philosophical reason why peregrine and debility should be mutually exclusive since planets can both be in a place that injures them and foreign at the same time. Planets will often have places of dignity in their debilities that serve as temporary forts through hostile or foreign land, but without those protections, they become worse off.

It appears to come off as somewhat redundant, I grant you, but there's ample difference between the Sun just being peregrine in Taurus (here he's an out of place foreigner) and being both peregrine and in Detriment in Aquarius (where he's both an out of place foreigner and in an environment he can't do well in), so it is like a double dose. Not only am I in a place I don't belong, but now this place is hurting me!

Thanks, I really like your explination. I can see/understand how a planet can have that kind of debility/misfourtune stacked up, but that leads me to my next question...can the luminaries ever really be perigrine? At least in natal charts? Because, wouldn't that for instance mean that almost everyone (see above re Sun conj. Spica) born with Sun in Libra is kinda...misfortunate?

Kaiousei no Senshi
01-20-2012, 11:53 PM
Because, wouldn't that for instance mean that almost everyone (see above re Sun conj. Spica) born with Sun in Libra is kinda...misfortunate?

Well, yes, definitely. People born with the Sun in Libra have a pretty debilitated Sun. There's nothing necessarily wrong with this, it's just that these people will have more difficulty expressing positive solar qualities or express more hardships relating to the house where Leo is on the cusp. Really the Sun isn't doing too hot if he's not in a Fire sign (where the overwhelming amount of his dignities are), so it's hardly a rare thing.

It's actually kind of weird because it turns out the luminaries are more likely to be pererine than the other planets since they lack the dignity of Face and only have one domicile.

tsmall
01-21-2012, 12:02 AM
It's actually kind of weird because it turns out the luminaries are more likely to be pererine than the other planets since they lack the dignity of Face and only have one domicile.

I had noticed that too. Maybe this is why psychologists and astrologers will never be out of work? :tongue: Thanks for taking the time to explain. Though I am sure I'll happily spend the next few days wondering philosophically why the two most important planets are so often peregrine.

Frank
01-21-2012, 12:15 AM
It's actually kind of weird because it turns out the luminaries are more likely to be pererine than the other planets since they lack the dignity of Face and only have one domicile.

The Luminaries do have Face dignities - but lack Term dignities.

Frank
01-21-2012, 12:19 AM
In my opinion, planets in Detriment and Fall can be Peregrine - if they lack any Essential Dignity.

Also in my opinion, a mutual reception mitigates the Peregrine condition, but doesn't eliminate it .

Kaiousei no Senshi
01-21-2012, 01:24 AM
The Luminaries do have Face dignities - but lack Term dignities.

Whoops! Thanks for the correction Frank. :pinched:

Though I am sure I'll happily spend the next few days wondering philosophically why the two most important planets are so often peregrine.

As an amendment to my above flub on the terms/faces of the luminaris. I belive it's Ptolemy who postulates that the Sun's terms are the entirety of the Northern Signs and the Moon's terms are the entirety of the Southern Signs.

It's obvious I don't have my sources with me at the moment, isn't it? :( I'm pretty good at remembering details, but I have difficulty retaining who said it.

byjove
01-21-2012, 12:46 PM
Yes, another newbie question. But, it seems to me that when we are talking about dignity and peregrine status, a planet either has dignity or it doesn't (perigrine.) Isn't being in fall or being in detriment a type of dignity? Dignity = honor. Planets in domicile or in exaltation are dignified in a positive manner. Wouldn't planets in fall or detriment also be "dignified" just in a negative manner?

Nah you're long past newbie stage and you're moving so quickly too...:wink:

I'm confused and surprised by a few things I've read here...:

- I was led to believe that a planet in essential dignity is difficult to topple with a few harsh aspects, the natural dignity stands...
- Dignity seems to indicate strength, but that can be strength to do 'good' or 'bad'. So a planet in dignity can still do a great deal of ill

This is just what I've been running on (books, conversations with astrologers way above me etc.) I'm totally open to re-interpretation though.

tsmall
01-21-2012, 01:30 PM
I belive it's Ptolemy who postulates that the Sun's terms are the entirety of the Northern Signs and the Moon's terms are the entirety of the Southern Signs.

It's obvious I don't have my sources with me at the moment, isn't it? :( I'm pretty good at remembering details, but I have difficulty retaining who said it.

Now that actually makes sense (to my mind at least,) especially when we start to consider sect. Am I following this correctly? If the Sun is above the horizon in a day chart, then it will be in it's own terms (sect?) no matter where it is placed? Similiarly, if the moon is above in a night chart?

tsmall
01-21-2012, 01:36 PM
Nah you're long past newbie stage and you're moving so quickly too...:wink:

Hey, thanks! :smile:

I'm confused and surprised by a few things I've read here...:

- I was led to believe that a planet in essential dignity is difficult to topple with a few harsh aspects, the natural dignity stands...
- Dignity seems to indicate strength, but that can be strength to do 'good' or 'bad'. So a planet in dignity can still do a great deal of ill

This is just what I've been running on (books, conversations with astrologers way above me etc.) I'm totally open to re-interpretation though.

Hmm, I was going on the impression that dignity and strength (fortitude) were two different things.

There is a distinction between dignity/debility and fortitude. For example, a person can be very talented or beautiful or intelligent (dignity) but, have little strength or ambition or energy to do anything with it (fortitude).

On the other hand a person can be very cruel, dim-witted or angry (debility) and have a lot of drive, energy and ambition to express it in the world or use it for corrupted means (fortitude).

Don't go off the deep-end about dignity and debility either. For example, Mars, when dignified is bold confident challenging, and unbeatable in competition, war or trials. When debilitated, he is prone to promoting war, quarrels and sedition. You can see the basic Maritian energy is still there but, it is used differently. Killing is still killing either way but one is celebrated and another is illegal. Yet, the circumstances of the action change it's affect upon the native (dignity or debility). Thus, one becomes a celebrated general and another an imprisioned murderer.

Same with fortitude, a planet strong or weak will temper it's actions changing one from perhaps a celebrated general to a mere football team captain. Or, a murderer to a person who simply has a really bad temper and swears a lot.

The trick is to not see these terms as immediately "good" or "bad". 'Mix reason with Art', the ancients said. Circumstances and environment and situation will modify the judgement.

Blessings,

Anachiel

Kaiousei no Senshi
01-21-2012, 03:32 PM
Now that actually makes sense (to my mind at least,) especially when we start to consider sect. Am I following this correctly? If the Sun is above the horizon in a day chart, then it will be in it's own terms (sect?) no matter where it is placed? Similiarly, if the moon is above in a night chart?

The Northern Signs would be Aries-Virgo and the Southern Signs would be the others. Apparently it was Lilly who shared that with us, but he didn't enjoy the rule and didn't use it himself.

SniperBomber328
01-21-2012, 03:54 PM
Don't know where I saw this (or maybe it's just my head), but wasn't there something like this a LONG TIME AGO; where the Moon and Sun found Domicile in each other's signs?

Where the Sun was Domicile in Cancer, and the Moon was Domicile in Leo? I don't know where I read this, but I'm pretty sure I did at one point, just can't remember. Anyways, anyone care to shed some light on this?

tsmall
01-22-2012, 11:20 PM
Don't know where I saw this (or maybe it's just my head), but wasn't there something like this a LONG TIME AGO; where the Moon and Sun found Domicile in each other's signs?

Where the Sun was Domicile in Cancer, and the Moon was Domicile in Leo? I don't know where I read this, but I'm pretty sure I did at one point, just can't remember. Anyways, anyone care to shed some light on this?

Sniper, I did make a reference to something similar a while back on this thread

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40285

But I only found one source for the idea that the Sun and Moon are "fully familiar" with each other, and so therefore able to concern themselves with what each other rule, but the link I found has since been taken down, and I have found nothing else suggesting this idea.

dr. farr
01-23-2012, 09:22 AM
Along these lines, in classical Vedic astrology (which goes back even before the Hellenists) they have what they call the "Hora" divisions of each sign in the chart; for + polarity signs the Sun is affinitive (has dominion) for the first 14:59 degrees of the sign and the Moon is affinitive (has dominion) from 15 degrees to the end of the sign; for - polarity signs, the reverse holds: Moon in dominion in first half, and Sun in dominion in the 2nd half. They use these Hora divisions in their scoring/estimating of planetary strength, which is very similar to Traditional and Hellenistic dignity/debility considerations (except the Vedics don't divide dignity/debility into essential and accidental, as is done in the Western approaches)

tsmall
10-06-2013, 06:53 PM
This topic cropped up on another thread, and in order to keep from turning that thread into a conversation about peregrine planets I thought it more appropriate to reply here.

Thank you for pointing that out, Tsmall. I was going with what appears to be an earlier definition and what makes sense to me. A planet in fall or detriment must be familiar with the sign because it is recognized they don't do well there. So, how can they be foreigners to those signs? The signs of debility are like being in the house of their enemy instead of the house where they are treated as an honored guest, where they are exalted or in their own home. A peregrine planet reminds me of the biblical Cain, who was sentenced to wander as a foreigner his whole life, yet had a mark that protected him from being killed. Certainly it isn't implied that he entered enemy territory, where he falls or is in detriment. Peregrine reminds me of a foreign diplomat or a person visiting on a visa, protected entry for a foreigner. I'm not saying this gives them dignity, only certain protection, and still not able to display and exercise their normal talents or mischief, as if they had essential dignity or debility. But, I could be wrong there. I suppose many would think of any stranger as an enemy, if seen in their house or field.

I understand the reasoning behind this, as peregrine or "foreigner" does not have the same connotation in language today as it did in the past. I was having this conversation with waybread a few days ago on one or another of the dignities threads. Peregrine planets, or planets with no essential dignity, are planets without resources given to them inherently. I picture a homeless person, no money, no food, clothing or shelter and in unfamiliar surroundings. Peregrine and debilated would be the above, and in a hostile environment at the same time. Like now you have nothing and may need to run for your life.

The thing about peregrine planets is that they are cunning, or wiley. Just because a planet doesn't have resources doesn't mean it isn't able to get them. The question, and the chart will tell the story, is how/where will it get them, will it be in a positive or negative way, or will it be not at all. The essential nature of the planet, the sign the planet is in, sect, the planet's ruler, aspects will tell you.

AquarianEssence
10-06-2013, 10:54 PM
Thanks, Tsmall. The original meaning is key to understanding what was intended with this label. So, I tracked down the word it was derived from, Latin Peregrinus. It predates Lily and all the more modern ancient traditional astrologers, by many centuries and by his lifetime, it had come to mean something different, I'm sure. Actually, it appears that the date of the change might coincide with the change in status of the Roman subjects called peregrini. From wiki:
Peregrinus was the term used during the early Roman empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_empire), from 30 BC to 212 AD, to denote a free provincial subject of the Empire who was not a Roman citizen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_citizen). Peregrini constituted the vast majority of the Empire's inhabitants in the 1st and 2nd centuries AD. In 212 AD, all free inhabitants of the Empire were granted citizenship by the constitutio Antoniniana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutio_Antoniniana), abolishing the status of peregrinus.
The Latin peregrinus (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/peregrinus) "foreigner, one from abroad" is a derivation from the adverb peregre "from abroad", composed of per- "abroad" and agri, the locative of ager "field, country". During the Roman Republic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Republic), the term peregrinus simply denoted any person who did not hold Roman citizenship, full or partial, whether that person was under Roman rule or not. Technically, this remained the case during the Imperial era. But in practice the term became limited to subjects of the Empire, with inhabitants of regions outside the Empire's borders denoted barbari (barbarians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbarians)).



In the legal field it is still used to mean a foreigner who is neither resident (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/resident) nor domiciled (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/domicile) in the jurisdiction of the court. While perigrini may have had some basic rights under "international Roman law", they weren't offered protection against torture during interrogation and other things that citizens were protected from. They call them terrorists, these days. :unsure: The decision to promote them from perigrini to citizen was financially motivated, lots of new tax revenue. So, I wonder if Cain was a sort of Peregrinus as he wandered the land of Nod. :sleeping: Read more http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peregrinus_%28Roman%29

tsmall
10-07-2013, 12:16 AM
Thanks, Tsmall. The original meaning is key to understanding what was intended with this label. So, I tracked down the word it was derived from, Latin Peregrinus. It predates Lily and all the more modern ancient traditional astrologers, by many centuries and by his lifetime, it had come to mean something different, I'm sure. Actually, it appears that the date of the change might coincide with the change in status of the Roman subjects called peregrini. From wiki:
Peregrinus was the term used during the early Roman empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_empire), from 30 BC to 212 AD, to denote a free provincial subject of the Empire who was not a Roman citizen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_citizen). Peregrini constituted the vast majority of the Empire's inhabitants in the 1st and 2nd centuries AD. In 212 AD, all free inhabitants of the Empire were granted citizenship by the constitutio Antoniniana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutio_Antoniniana), abolishing the status of peregrinus.
The Latin peregrinus (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/peregrinus) "foreigner, one from abroad" is a derivation from the adverb peregre "from abroad", composed of per- "abroad" and agri, the locative of ager "field, country". During the Roman Republic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Republic), the term peregrinus simply denoted any person who did not hold Roman citizenship, full or partial, whether that person was under Roman rule or not. Technically, this remained the case during the Imperial era. But in practice the term became limited to subjects of the Empire, with inhabitants of regions outside the Empire's borders denoted barbari (barbarians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbarians)).



In the legal field it is still used to mean a foreigner who is neither resident (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/resident) nor domiciled (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/domicile) in the jurisdiction of the court. While perigrini may have had some basic rights under "international Roman law", they weren't offered protection against torture during interrogation and other things that citizens were protected from. They call them terrorists, these days. :unsure: The decision to promote them from perigrini to citizen was financially motivated, lots of new tax revenue. So, I wonder if Cain was a sort of Peregrinus as he wandered the land of Nod. :sleeping: Read more http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peregrinus_%28Roman%29

That is most excellent, AquarianEssence, and reading the entire article suggests that peregrine can stack with debility. It also reaffirms my understanding of how to interpret peregrine planets in charts. Thank you. :smile:

poyi
10-07-2013, 12:22 AM
I just want to say, this is a beautiful, educational thread discussed in peaceful, respectful manner.

Thank you very much for all the replies. I truly enjoy reading all of your contributions.

tsmall
10-07-2013, 12:38 AM
I just want to say, this is a beautiful, educational thread discussed in peaceful, respectful manner.

Thank you very much for all the replies. I truly enjoy reading all of your contributions.

Poyi, if I remember correctly, there were once posts here that are no longer. Though as I recall, they were mostly Frank and I having a conversation and a laugh about spelling.

I almost didn't want to resurrect this thread, but it is fun for me to be able to look back at some of the questions I had when I first started studying and be able to answer them for myself. :surprised:

poyi
10-07-2013, 12:43 AM
Poyi, if I remember correctly, there were once posts here that are no longer. Though as I recall, they were mostly Frank and I having a conversation and a laugh about spelling.

I almost didn't want to resurrect this thread, but it is fun for me to be able to look back at some of the questions I had when I first started studying and be able to answer them for myself. :surprised:


True. Overtime, we don't realize how much we learned until you looked back your own threads at the very beginning. Very much like looking back old photos :tongue: I read my old threads few few weeks ago, I felt so embarrassed of asking those silly questions, like ugly teenage photos.

It is fun.

AquarianEssence
10-08-2013, 06:07 PM
Thank you, Tsmall. After some pondering and reading of ancient texts, I can't agree. A peregrini had no basic rights afforded to citizens at all, not even the right to an attorney or trial by jury. Summary judgment and execution was common. A defendant in his detriment or fall from grace may be debilitated but still has the right to defend himself, but not so when peregrine. Most important, they couldn't marry citizens and if they cohabited, their children were illegitimate. Ptolomey gives Rome to Leo. That means that Sun/citizens of Leo couldn't marry the natural compliment, Sun in Aquarius. The children of Leo (Sag) are of the same triplicity, and those of Aquarius are Romulus and Remus. Not citizens? Illegitimate? I don't think so.


My next deciding factor is on page 115 of Christian Astrology, Lily lists a separate score for fall, detriment and peregrine. It makes no sense to list them separately if they are one and the same. That would be like being charged with both armed robbery and unlawful use of a firearm. They may be able to get away with it but that doesn't make it correct or in line with the spirit of the law. Double jeopardy is also ruled out. I realize that the page where Lily defines peregrine seems to allow the possibility that one in debility could also be peregrine. But, he is no more perfect than you or I and has made som typographical errors. It makes no sense that he would score the debilities next to the dignities, if they were not to be treated together under the category of essential dignities, the latter being a negative dignity. After all, our negative qualities are part of our overall dignity. So, where did Lily learn about peregriation?


The Introduction to the Science of the Judgments of the Stars, Sahl Ibn Bishr lists 10 debilities, the 8th being, “...when a planet is in a domicile in which it has no testimony, ie no dignity, ie it is where it is not in its own domicile or in its own exaltation or in its own triplicity, etc., and when it is peregrine and already being pursued by the Sun, ie when it is before the Sun. http://books.google.com/books?id=i9g-_JFVNJcC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q=peregrine&f=false I believe the etc could include the debility portion of the list of testimonies. Being in fall or detriment is a testimony, don't you think?


Some translate Ptolemy using the word alien, for peregrine. ..."Disjunct" and "alien" are the names applied to those divisions of the zodiac which have none whatever of the aforesaid familiarities with one another. These are the ones which belong neither to the class of commanding or obeying, beholding or of equal power, and furthermore they are found (p79) to be entirely without share in the four aforesaid aspects, opposition, trine, quartile, and sextile, and are either one or five signs apart; for those which are one sign apart are as it were averted from one another and, though they are two, bound the angle of one, and those that are five signs apart divide the whole circle into unequal parts, while the other aspects make an equal division of the perimeter.......They share, however, in the similarity in the same way; just as, on the contrary, when they are found in alien regions belonging to the opposite sect, a great part of their proper power is paralyzed, because the temperament which arises from the dissimilarity of the signs produces a different and adulterated nature....” http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Ptolemy/Tetrabiblos/1B*.html#23 Here the word peregrine is used
http://books.google.com/books?id=D5UBX8Zj6xcC&pg=PA53&lpg=PA53&dq=Tetrabiblos+peregrine&source=bl&ots=2oEyKUpoBs&sig=FTwn4uOS80JSqmsJk2ofhlcUR2c&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ErZSUpmZE5PS8wSai4CoDQ&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Tetrabiblos%20peregrine&f=false
Now, Ptolemy seems to be saying that those in detriment and fall (“belonging to the opposite sect”) are similarly debilitated, but he is still making the distinction that the peregrine signs are those 1 and 6 signs distant. For sun, that would be Virgo and Capricorn, based on Leo, Taurus and Virgo, based on Aries, Pisces and Cancer, based on his sign of Detriment, Scorpio and Pisces based on the sign of his fall, where Sun is presently. Of course, Sun has dignity in fire by day and some face degrees, so would not be peregrine there. I should also mention that the programers of Kepler software, using Ptolemy's essential dignities, do not show planets peregrine that are in detriment or fall, again, because those qualities are part of the dignity scoring. I guess I can't be 100% sure unless and until I track down some of these ancient texts and translate those parts. But for now I will consider sun not peregrine in Libra and Aquarius.


By the way, my Sun and Saturn are peregrine. My real life example is the fact that my two father significators signed off for me to be adopted by my mom's 2nd husband, no longer being my father, legally. I don't have the legal right of inheritance or the rights of the firstborn, as I should have so I am a stranger in my own paternal family. Yes, I suppose he is a bit of a wanderer in the foreign land of matrimony. He's an Aquarius Sun, in detriment there and a little too detached. He was on his first date with my step mom the night my mom went into labor with me. He visited that foreign land 3 months later when my brother was conceived. My Sun and Moon are void of course. Venus is void by sign too, having to cross into her detriment to sextile Mars then conjoin Saturn. By traditional standards, my Mercury and Jupiter are also void. So, it is clear why it is important to me to distinguish between void of course and peregrine, two different conditions. I have Mars making a sextile to Saturn, which are in mutual reception by sign. So, that helps my Saturn quite a bit. My brother, Mars, overcame the peregrine nature somewhat, by taking over, buying (Saturn in Scorpio) our dad's business, a mobile (Saturn in the 3rd) fire equipment sales and service (3rd house) (Mars) company. (Saturn and Capricorn). He inherited the birth name back through the name of the company (Scorpio). The peregrine nature appears to have given my dad a special privilege. Of course, he avoided child support after the adoption, helping his Scorpio Moon. Then, when we were taken from my mom, he was able to take us as foster children, paid by the state, instead of him paying for our care. You might think the void played a part, and maybe it did but, not being legally related (peregrine) is what gave him this privilege.

tsmall
10-09-2013, 12:25 AM
Thank you, Tsmall. After some pondering and reading of ancient texts, I can't agree. A peregrini had no basic rights afforded to citizens at all, not even the right to an attorney or trial by jury. Summary judgment and execution was common. A defendant in his detriment or fall from grace may be debilitated but still has the right to defend himself, but not so when peregrine.

Correct. To bring this back to astrology, and how to view peregrine planets...a peregrine planet has no rights afforded to it. This is not dissimilar to my postulation that peregrine planets have no inherent resources available to them. Going back to the wiki article you linked, those peregrini were completely at the mercy of whomever ruled the civitates peregrinae in which they dwelled. Some were good, some were not so great. Again tying this back to astrology, this is why it is said that peregrine planets are completely at the mercy of their rulers.

Most important, they couldn't marry citizens and if they cohabited, their children were illegitimate. Ptolomey gives Rome to Leo. That means that Sun/citizens of Leo couldn't marry the natural compliment, Sun in Aquarius. The children of Leo (Sag) are of the same triplicity, and those of Aquarius are Romulus and Remus. Not citizens? Illegitimate? I don't think so.

Ok...why? Remember that we are trying to tie the use of the word peregrine as a description to a planet with no essential dignity, and not trying to pass judgement on what we believe to be fair. Astrology is a language, and I believe from your earlier posts that you understand that. Which is why I was so excited that you traced down the root definition, as well as the connotations given for the word.


My next deciding factor is on page 115 of Christian Astrology, Lily lists a separate score for fall, detriment and peregrine. It makes no sense to list them separately if they are one and the same. That would be like being charged with both armed robbery and unlawful use of a firearm. They may be able to get away with it but that doesn't make it correct or in line with the spirit of the law. Double jeopardy is also ruled out. I realize that the page where Lily defines peregrine seems to allow the possibility that one in debility could also be peregrine. But, he is no more perfect than you or I and has made som typographical errors. It makes no sense that he would score the debilities next to the dignities, if they were not to be treated together under the category of essential dignities, the latter being a negative dignity. After all, our negative qualities are part of our overall dignity. So, where did Lily learn about peregriation?

Probably from Bonatti, who got it from the Persians. I can acknowledge your argument, as mine was the same. The key is in understanding that debility, as well as dignity, can stack (to quote Kai.) Why, for example, does Saturn often get to be almuten of Libra? Especially between the 1st and 6th degrees in a day chart? Because there, Saturn has dignity by exaltation, term and tripilcity. See how dignity can stack? Saturn has way more dignity in the 1st degrees of Libra than Venus, hands down.




The Introduction to the Science of the Judgments of the Stars, Sahl Ibn Bishr lists 10 debilities, the 8th being, “...when a planet is in a domicile in which it has no testimony, ie no dignity, ie it is where it is not in its own domicile or in its own exaltation or in its own triplicity, etc., and when it is peregrine and already being pursued by the Sun, ie when it is before the Sun. http://books.google.com/books?id=i9g-_JFVNJcC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q=peregrine&f=false I believe the etc could include the debility portion of the list of testimonies. Being in fall or detriment is a testimony, don't you think?

You have this book? Jealolus. It's on my list.

I believe that you are misreading Saul. What sooo many ancient authors leave out, because they assume knowlegede on the part of the reader, are the specifics in every statement.

You already answered this question yourself.

A defendant in his detriment or fall from grace may be debilitated but still has the right to defend himself, but not so when peregrine.

Again, correct. Ok, so I'm not a terribly religious person, but the best way I can think at the moment to explain it is...consider the story of Jesus. Because it is from the same time period as we are discussing, and applies. Jesus could be considered as peregrini, since all of Judea was under Roman rule, Isralites were peregrine, with "overseers" that came from the locals and who were looking for favor and controlling the population as per that same article you linked to.

In this analogy, Jesus is not only peregrine, but in detriment. What happened to him? We could say that his peregrination stacked with his debility...and ouchies.




Some translate Ptolemy using the word alien, for peregrine. ..."Disjunct" and "alien" are the names applied to those divisions of the zodiac which have none whatever of the aforesaid familiarities with one another. These are the ones which belong neither to the class of commanding or obeying, beholding or of equal power, and furthermore they are found (p79) to be entirely without share in the four aforesaid aspects, opposition, trine, quartile, and sextile, and are either one or five signs apart; for those which are one sign apart are as it were averted from one another and, though they are two, bound the angle of one, and those that are five signs apart divide the whole circle into unequal parts, while the other aspects make an equal division of the perimeter.......They share, however, in the similarity in the same way; just as, on the contrary, when they are found in alien regions belonging to the opposite sect, a great part of their proper power is paralyzed, because the temperament which arises from the dissimilarity of the signs produces a different and adulterated nature....” http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Ptolemy/Tetrabiblos/1B*.html#23 Here the word peregrine is used
http://books.google.com/books?id=D5UBX8Zj6xcC&pg=PA53&lpg=PA53&dq=Tetrabiblos+peregrine&source=bl&ots=2oEyKUpoBs&sig=FTwn4uOS80JSqmsJk2ofhlcUR2c&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ErZSUpmZE5PS8wSai4CoDQ&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Tetrabiblos%20peregrine&f=false

I am almost following you here...


Now, Ptolemy seems to be saying that those in detriment and fall (“belonging to the opposite sect”) are similarly debilitated, but he is still making the distinction that the peregrine signs are those 1 and 6 signs distant. For sun, that would be Virgo and Capricorn, based on Leo, Taurus and Virgo, based on Aries, Pisces and Cancer, based on his sign of Detriment, Scorpio and Pisces based on the sign of his fall, where Sun is presently. Of course, Sun has dignity in fire by day and some face degrees, so would not be peregrine there. I should also mention that the programers of Kepler software, using Ptolemy's essential dignities, do not show planets peregrine that are in detriment or fall, again, because those qualities are part of the dignity scoring.

But at this point you have completely lost me. Mostly because you are comparing apples to oranges. And I'm not terribly concerned with what any software, including the couple that I use, do for dignity. I prefer to figure it out for myself, because software will still be biased based on the opinions or misunderstandings of the programmer.

I guess I can't be 100% sure unless and until I track down some of these ancient texts and translate those parts. But for now I will consider sun not peregrine in Libra and Aquarius.


I would need to spend a bit more time with the rest of what you have posted, and currently am pressed so unable to address your personal experiences...and for the record, I have a couple of planets that are peregrine and debilitated as well.

To speak to the bolded part of this statement...I personally would not consider Sun to be peregrine in Libra, because that is the "solar half." There is well documented precident for considering that the Sun in any sign from Leo to Capricorn is in his "own half," and that the Moon in signs from Aquarius to Cancer is in her "own half."

quote from Benjamin Dykes, Introductions to Astrology, pp. 59-60, originally translated from al-Quabisi

And the half of the circle which is from the beginning of Leo up to the end of Capricorn is called the "greatest half," and it is the Sun's half; because the Sun has sovereignty in this whole half just like the planets do in their own bounds. And the other half, which is from the beginning of Aquarius up to the end of Cancer, is called the "least half"; because the Moon likewise has sovereignty in this whole half, just like the Sun does in the greatest one.

tsmall
10-09-2013, 12:53 AM
The Introduction to the Science of the Judgments of the Stars, Sahl Ibn Bishr lists 10 debilities, the 8th being, “...when a planet is in a domicile in which it has no testimony, ie no dignity, ie it is where it is not in its own domicile or in its own exaltation or in its own triplicity, etc., and when it is peregrine and already being pursued by the Sun, ie when it is before the Sun. http://books.google.com/books?id=i9g-_JFVNJcC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q=peregrine&f=false

I just clicked on the link you provided. You actually miss out on several other instances provided which do support my position re peregrine planets, and are taking just this one instance to support your theory. What is also missing here is an understanding of what Saul means when he says "and when it is peregrine and already being persued by the Sun."

To which planets may the Sun apply? (because this is what is meant by "persue" here?) Only to the Superiors. What happens when the Sun applies to these planets? They set into the beams. What he is describing is a planet with no resources available about to get scorched by the Sun, who is an accidental malefic for this very reason. So, how do we mitigate this? Read the chart, and look at the condition of the peregrine planet's rulers, as well as aspects and the condition of the planets which regard.

AquarianEssence
10-10-2013, 03:31 PM
Correct. To bring this back to astrology, and how to view peregrine planets...a peregrine planet has no rights afforded to it. This is not dissimilar to my postulation that peregrine planets have no inherent resources available to them. Going back to the wiki article you linked, those peregrini were completely at the mercy of whomever ruled the civitates peregrinae in which they dwelled. Some were good, some were not so great. Again tying this back to astrology, this is why it is said that peregrine planets are completely at the mercy of their rulers.Agreed, to a certain extent. No one is completely without resource. They may have to work harder or depend on the kindness of another, such as a women in childbirth and rearing depends on someone else to bring in the income. The exception is if there is special circumstance, such as the one beholding the other, as 19°Aries is beholding 11°Virgo (antiscion or solstice points), where they are equal in power. (=light/dark, one sees, the other perceives, they regard each other)

Ok...why? Remember that we are trying to tie the use of the word peregrine as a description to a planet with no essential dignity, and not trying to pass judgement on what we believe to be fair. Astrology is a language, and I believe from your earlier posts that you understand that. Which is why I was so excited that you traced down the root definition, as well as the connotations given for the word.You answered a question with a question and I don't think this has anything to do with being fair and everything to do with logic. You are asserting that Sun in Aquarius would be peregrine, without any rights, therefore his children would not be citizens and be illegitimate. So my question is, noting that Gemini is the 5th sign from Aquarius and that the sign of the twins represents Romulas and Remus, are you saying they would not be citizens of Rome? Children are a type of resource and back in the day, the throne was inherited.

Probably from Bonatti, who got it from the Persians. I can acknowledge your argument, as mine was the same. The key is in understanding that debility, as well as dignity, can stack (to quote Kai.) Why, for example, does Saturn often get to be almuten of Libra? Especially between the 1st and 6th degrees in a day chart? Because there, Saturn has dignity by exaltation, term and tripilcity. See how dignity can stack? Saturn has way more dignity in the 1st degrees of Libra than Venus, hands down. Valentin Naboth was Lily's inspiration and guide in learning astrology. I found one of his works here (http://fondosdigitales.us.es/fondos/libros/1280/11/enarratio-elementorum-astrologiae/), in Latin, but it would take a very long time for me to search out any reference to alien or peregrine planets. You make a good point. But, while you may be able to stack, this is only in different catagories. None can have two terms or be two faced. There are 4 that rule two signs but can never be in both at once, the same for domicile and exaltation. The exception is Mercury, who is both ruler of and exalted in Virgo. My point is, detrimient, fall and peregrine are describing being in a whole sign were their may be a small area where they have dignity by doing things on their own terms or through their own face. These essential dibilities are equivelent to the essential dignities of domicile and exaltation, with peregrine being in no place familiar at all. Remember too, Saturn, ruling Aquarius, is of the same sect as Sun, both being diurnal and masculine. So, they are not foreign to each other.

I got curious to see if my friend google had any results searching Aquarius peregrine and was surprised to find Kevin Burk, in Understanding the Birth Chart (http://books.google.com/books?id=Z0nnE2IP7A4C&pg=PA97&lpg=PA97&dq=sun+peregrine+aquarius&source=bl&ots=Isbxl6Dcve&sig=LFQEhWmOFVkYfePwmJ75bsH8-f0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=1rpWUoeeO_Ku4APKsYHIBw&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=peregrine&f=false), contradicting himself. When defining peregrine, he says, "but at the same time they do not have any essential debilities either." There is a table on page 87. But then page 97, he says Aquarius Sun is both in detriment and peregrine.

You have this book? Jealolus. It's on my list.No, I linked to a google book preview. I have some of the ancient texts that are available on line. Most are scans of Latin. It would be best to look at the originals though, rather than Latin translations.

I believe that you are misreading Saul. What sooo many ancient authors leave out, because they assume knowlegede on the part of the reader, are the specifics in every statement.I don't believe so. Sahl is quite specific and detailed, especially saying "no testimony". If I give testimony about something I am pointing out notable details. Sahl says there are no details, no testimony what so ever. Even the definition found on this webite agrees, A partial judgment based upon the influence of a certain planet as conditioned by Sign and House, strength of position and aspects, or of a certain configuration of planets in a Figure. The synthesis of several testimonies constitutes a judgment. The term as used by Ptolemy is approximately synonymous with Argument.

Again, correct. Ok, so I'm not a terribly religious person, but the best way I can think at the moment to explain it is...consider the story of Jesus. Because it is from the same time period as we are discussing, and applies. Jesus could be considered as peregrini, since all of Judea was under Roman rule, Isralites were peregrine, with "overseers" that came from the locals and who were looking for favor and controlling the population as per that same article you linked to.

In this analogy, Jesus is not only peregrine, but in detriment. What happened to him? We could say that his peregrination stacked with his debility...and ouchies.That's a good example, but remember, his Sun was most likely in Pisces (unless it was Virgo, born of a virgin) and is truly peregrine no matter how you define it. So, he asks, "Elohim, Elohim, why have you forsaken me?" Elohim was mute because he was left without help, being peregrine.

But at this point you have completely lost me. Mostly because you are comparing apples to oranges. And I'm not terribly concerned with what any software, including the couple that I use, do for dignity. I prefer to figure it out for myself, because software will still be biased based on the opinions or misunderstandings of the programmer. If you read the document I refer to you would not say it is apples and oranges and would follow what I'm saying. As for software, David Cochrane is the developer and it is at the top of the list for quality. He also assisted Matrix development, my main software when it is cooperating with my OS. Winstar has both Ptolemaic and Lilly dignity/strengths available. Ptolemy's shows those in fall detriment, also Peregrine. They have interpreted Lily, on the other hand, as giving peregrine only to those without any testimony. I have a feeling Winstar has Lily and Ptolemy reversed, but can't know unless I wade through these foreign language scanned texts.

Thanks for stretching my mind.

Marius Cojoc
10-11-2013, 03:39 PM
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JUPITERASC
10-11-2013, 05:08 PM
Grettings,

I think Ptolemy is not a good reference to discuss about essential dignities and neither Lilly. Ptolemy believed that planets have souls and their motions are originating from themselves. For Ptolemy, the motive impules works from inside outside which is not in accordance with Aristotelian philosophy. For Aristotle, outside the sphere of the fixed stars, there was the prime mover, who imparted motion from the outside inward.

Ousia is the primary substance in Greek philosophy and it appears that Ptolemy understood this concept different from the earliest hellenistic astrologers. My suggestion would be to search a lead before Ptolemy. This debate is somehow meaningless without an astronomical foundation.
THE UNIVERSE OF ARISTOTLE
AND PTOLEMY http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr161/lect/retrograde/aristotle.html :smile:

Marius Cojoc
10-11-2013, 06:56 PM
msg deleted

AquarianEssence
10-11-2013, 08:54 PM
Thank you Marius. Good point. I was thinking the same thing. A source before the common era is probably when it originated. My guess is it originated in Chaldean/Babylonian astrology. If so, I suspect the word we're looking for is pretty close to כֶּתֶר פְּרָחִים or simply פְּרָחִים which is spelled pey, resh, cheth, yod, mayim, the last 2 letters marking it as a plural. It could be moved into other languages as peregrine, with g replacing the throaty ch, since both are voiced by closing the throat to a certain extent. This Hebrew word can also mean novice, rookie or recruit, interestingly, as well as being a crown of flowers. To a novice, astrology is a foreign language, similar to a planet that is peregrine. You may wonder what a crown of flowers has to do with being a stranger or novice. Well, a flower, as sweet as it smells, is a youth, initiated until it is fertilized and becomes. An ancient way of saying a man had sex with a woman is to say he laid with her. Before that she was a flower/novice/stranger. ZR, zayin resh is similar, a crown moulding, gold overlay wrapped around. This word, too, can mean foreigner. The reason is that a foreign material is overlaid on another. So, if anyone has access to any ancient text in a Semetic language, look for the above word or one quite similar. You can find an example of the alphabet, even the older version at Wikipedia and other places.

Over at projecthindsight.com (http://www.projecthindsight.com/articles/hellenistic.html), while making the point that much of what we have through Hellenistic astrology, comes from a common source before them they say, In fact, it is only in the details of the execution of techniques and the extension of their range of application that we find anything resembling a development of the original tradition. In the case of techniques reported by several authors, we often find differences of opinion over the fine points of procedure. But far from being evidence of innovation, such divergence of views suggests instead that the original source texts were not sufficiently explicit on many procedural matters — Vettius Valens himself frequently attests to the cryptic nature of his sources — giving later astrologers the task of fleshing out of what was merely suggested in the originals. Here again, the determination of which of these variants is a valid elaboration is not a textual matter; it requires an understanding of the conceptual issues that motivated the introduction of the technique in the first place.

Marius Cojoc
10-11-2013, 11:09 PM
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AquarianEssence
10-11-2013, 11:30 PM
I would think they would be their most natural in their own sign or that of exaltation, most unnatural when peregrine. I would never suggest Zeus could be Aphrodite, but being on her turf might show he is directing his energy in a fashion similar to hers, as if putting on her clothes, which won't likely fit well. :w00t:

dr. farr
10-12-2013, 04:17 AM
Ante-Ptolemy (astrological) sources would be Manilius, Dorotheus of Sidon and Antiochus of Athens, but cosmologically related concepts can be found in the works Pythagoras, Plato and their early followers, as well as in the Alexandrian hermetic literature prior to c. 150 AD.

Marius Cojoc
10-12-2013, 05:39 AM
msg deleted

AquarianEssence
10-12-2013, 11:11 PM
Good morning all. Marius, I see you are new here. Welcome. Dr. Farr, I searched Manilius and found this: http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/manilius.html (http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/manilius.html)The first instance of peregrino can be found in Libre Primus. Peregrinus is also found in the last section. It will take some time to wade through all this, my not being fluent in Latin. I will also notice the occurrences of words like fallere, to deceive, in case it is relevant to the discussion. I believe this document was authored around 10 AD or so.

dr. farr
10-13-2013, 03:37 AM
As I have stated before, it is my understanding that the earliest Hellenists regarded the peregrine state as one devoid of any connections whatsoever, ie no essential dignity and no essential detriment. However, by Islamic transitional era times, and subsequently, it has meant simply no essential dignity (thus detriment does not save from peregrine)
Although I have long abandoned the entire concept of peregrine as an error (although as part of a whole system model it "works" in arriving at practical evaluative results when using that particular model), I think there are some important questions which could be asked-entirely within the Traditionalist model-regarding this matter:
-a planet is not peregrine if in essential dignity by domicile, exaltation, triplicity, face or term (bound): however, these were NOT the only essential divisions recognized in Hellenist and early to mid Islamic transitional times:
-in addition to faces, duodenaries (allocated to zodiacal signs) were accepted since the time of Manilius and these meet every qualification for being essential dignities (if face = decan is essential, so too would be these duodenary subdivisions)
-sign monomoiria (division of each sign into 30 degrees, each DEGREE being affinitive to a sign) was known to the Hellenists and mentioned as late as the time of Ibn Ezra ("Beginning of Wisdom") Like faces and like duodenaries, these too would be essential dignities
-Now, WHY are only domicile, exaltation, face, triplicity and term (bound) used to determine if a planet has essential dignity, and the duodenaries and monomoiria left out of the determination of whether or not a planet has any essential dignities (and thus whether or not that planet is "peregrine")?? Is it because during the transition to predominant European astrology (c late 12th/early 13th centuries) the duodenaries and monomoiria were simply dropped and soon forgotten about? Faces, like domiciles, are not accidental dignities, neither are their further divisions such as duodenary and monomoiria: why were they not included in the later dignity/debility evaluations, and in the determination of "peregrine"??

tsmall
10-13-2013, 03:48 AM
As I have stated before, it is my understanding that the earliest Hellenists regarded the peregrine state as one devoid of any connections whatsoever, ie no essential dignity and no essential detriment. However, by Islamic transitional era times, and subsequently, it has meant simply no essential dignity (thus detriment does not save from peregrine)
Although I have long abandoned the entire concept of peregrine as an error (although as part of a whole system model it "works" in arriving at practical evaluative results when using that particular model), I think there are some important questions which could be asked-entirely within the Traditionalist model-regarding this matter:
-a planet is not peregrine if in essential dignity by domicile, exaltation, triplicity, face or term (bound): however, these were NOT the only essential divisions recognized in Hellenist and early to mid Islamic transitional times:
-in addition to faces, duodenaries (allocated to zodiacal signs) were accepted since the time of Manilius and these meet every qualification for being essential dignities (if face = decan is essential, so too would be these duodenary subdivisions)
-sign monomoiria (division of each sign into 30 degrees, each DEGREE being affinitive to a sign) was known to the Hellenists and mentioned as late as the time of Ibn Ezra ("Beginning of Wisdom") Like faces and like duodenaries, these too would be essential dignities
-Now, WHY are only domicile, exaltation, face, triplicity and term (bound) used to determine if a planet has essential dignity, and the duodenaries and monomoiria left out of the determination of whether or not a planet has any essential dignities (and thus whether or not that planet is "peregrine")?? Is it because during the transition to predominant European astrology (c late 12th/early 13th centuries) the duodenaries and monomoiria were simply dropped and soon forgotten about? Faces, like domiciles, are not accidental dignities, neither are their further divisions such as duodenary and monomoiria: why were they not included in the later dignity/debility evaluations, and in the determination of "peregrine"??

dr. farr, I completely agree, and also would wonder why the luminaries' "halves" of the chart were also dropped? It is striking that the lights have no dignity in any sign by term/bound (also striking that so much importance was given to the bound ruler in ancient texts, and yet the later astrologers regard term as being a minor dignity.) Yet at the same time we have extant that the lights are in their own bounds when the are in their familiar (domain? sect? are these places no longer important?) halves, ie as I have already mentioned Sun in the signs from Leo to Capricorn, and Moon in the signs from Aquarius to Cancer.

dr. farr
10-13-2013, 04:25 AM
Right about the LIghts: however, in both duodenary division and in both types of monomoiria (planetary and zodiacal) Sun and Moon DO have places of dignity. We find this recognition of the Lights via dignity also in Vedic astrology: the first 15 degrees of each odd sign is under the "hora" of the Sun (Sun in dignity if therein) and the last 15 degrees of each odd sign is under the "hora" of the Moon; it is reversed in even signs, ie the first 15 degrees is under the Moon and the last 15 degrees is under the Sun.
No doubt in my mind that several significant changes occured in Western astrology between the 13th and 15th centuries, from what it had been in the earlier times (Hellenist through mid/late Islamic transitional era)...

Marius Cojoc
10-13-2013, 03:02 PM
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JUPITERASC
10-13-2013, 05:08 PM
Greetings to all,

Manilius is inaccessible to me.....

E-BOOKS AND TEXT ARCHIVE from google http://archive.org/details/mmaniliiastrono00breigoog

MARCUS MANILIUS

ASTRONOMICA
ENGLISH translation
WEB BASED LIBRARY FREE DOWNLOADS http://www.gobookee.org/marcus-manilius-astronomica-english/ :smile:

AquarianEssence
10-13-2013, 10:29 PM
Dr. Farr, I believe you are right about the changes that took place later. It is my guess that dwads, in their original form were dropped because each planet required calculations on an individual basis, no cheat sheet allowed. It is already very time consuming to calculate the basic chart and lots. I am so grateful for modern technology.

Marius, it makes sense to me that the ancients called planets wanderers because they appeared to be stars but noticeably moved every day, unlike the fixed stars. But, at the same time, even in the centuries BC, astrologers recognized these travelers brought events according to the nature of the sign or constellation they were passing through. They would eventually determine what was the natural energy of each and recognize when they seemed to be foreign, out of place. I do agree with you that the planets in their raw form, represent ouisia, essence, potential offered. The sign they are in represents how well they can manifest their essence. They likely perform most average in their own sign and most easily, perhaps with genius, in their place of exaltation, modified by aspects, of course. Perhaps I could use my essences as an example. Several essential oils can have a chemical in common. For example, Peppermint contains 38-48% menthol, Spearmint contains about 0.5%. These are herbs of Mercury. The content of menthol is modest but effective in spearmint, safer for sensitive babies. It is elevated or exalted in the peppermint, fitting exaltation in Virgo, where you might need it for heartburn or indigestion.

I wish Lily were here so I could ask him how can a perigrini be helpless, without power to act, yet be the marker for the thief in horary. :rightful::bandit::cool:

By the way, my peregrine Saturn landholder in the IC, is testifying that I own 2 acres but it belonged to my ex husband's family for the last several generations. Yes, I do feel like a squatter in many respects but I needed to keep my children's home, for their sake. I also spent some time with no home as a child, a wanderer living out of a car, working the fruit farms as a migrant worker for part of a summer. That would probably describe my peregrine Sun in Virgo in the 2nd, although I never saw the money.

tsmall
10-14-2013, 12:38 AM
Greetings and salutations Marius.


My point is that all the planets are peregrine or wanderers. This astrological system is geocentric having the Earth in the Center and all the planets are revolving around it. When a planet cross a masculine zoidion it is anouncing events that arise and take effect. If it happens to be a solid zoidion than it is showing a steady completion and permanent result. If all this happens in a fire like zoidion then those events are forced and necessary to occur etc. The combinations are unique.

To speak to the above, yes, all planets are wanderers, in that they were early on recognized to be different from the fixed stars which map the zodia. To be honest, I am less interested in discovering the origin of the peregrine state (though I am completely enjoying the discussion--and regret that in my ignorance I have nothing to add to it) than I am in understanding why it was given, and more importantly how to either use or discard it in interpreting charts.

I earnestly hope that I am reading what you are writing correctly, as I am not as familiar with the differening philosophies surrounding the cosmos held by the ancients as I would like to be, so please correct me if I am misunderstanding here. Are we then thinking or considering that a planet with no essential dignity (ie, not in any of its familiar places) will resort to its essential nature? Because if so, that corroborates the idea that interpretively such a planet (peregrine) will be forced to use its essence, or nature, to express itself and more importantly to control the affairs of the images it rules.

In my opinion the essence of a planet it is shown by potentiality and not actuality. This is somehow a ptolemaic point of view close related with aristotelian doctrine. The potentiality it's a matter of capability, ability, strength, power and indicate that something might have the chance to happen or not to happen or shows how something could be done well.

When we seek the potentiality of a planet we will notice that at terrestrial level is far more better to have a planet in a pivotal image above the horizon. At planetary level we will see that a planet which is direct in motion, oriental, visible in the sky and its making a phasis is far more potent than one which is not. At zodical level we will see that a planet which is in its own domicile, exaltation or confines is far more potent that one which is not. This are all essential according to their level of being but they are not the ousia or essence of that planet. This atributes are just describing the potentiality of the ousia (essence) of that planet.


For my learning purposes, what you have posted here speaks to how we ought to look at those planets which at some point in time have been defined as "peregrini." One way of looking at them, as I have mentioned elsewhere (I do not recollect at the moment where, else I would provide a link) is that they are cunning. Again going back to the definition of the word cunning, there is both a positive and a negative connotation surrounding this term.

Cunning could mean gaining one's ends by deceit, or it could mean displaying keen insight and the ability to acquire and then use special resources to achieve one's ends. This is not at odds with the description of ouisa, or the essence of the thing based on the nature of the planet, the image and place position relative to the horoscope. Delineating the planet in its entirety (including duads, 12th parts and monomoria) will give the astrologer insight as to which it will be.

dr. farr
10-14-2013, 03:40 AM
You know, the Hellenists (except Ptolemy) in their use of dodekatemorion ramifications (which are not the same as dodekatemorion meaning sign 1/12ths, but rather a process applied to a planetary position) would delineate the dodek place (ramification) of that planet JUST AS IF IT WERE THERE AT THAT PLACE, in ADDITION to its actual position in the chart: then they would combine the indications for BOTH "positions" in coming to a final evaluation of the net actual condition or state of that planet.
Eg (using the most commonly applied Egyptian dodek method of multiplication by a factor of 12)
-say the Sun were @ 3 Aquarius: well, the Sun at that position would of course receive complete delineation
BUT ALSO
-the dodek of the Sun would be calculated: so Aquarius 3 x dodek factor of 12 = 36, minus the 30 degrees of Aquarius, so the dodek of the Sun would fall @ 6 Pisces:
-they would THEN ALSO delineate the Sun AT THE DODEK POSITION, in this case they would fully delineate the Sun @ 6 Pisces
-their NET delineation of the condition or state of the Sun would be the synthesis of both the original Sun @ 3 Aquarius AND the Sun at its dodek place of 6 Pisces.

We find references to this approach in Paulus Alexandrianus and some examples given in "Greek Horoscopes". However, by the time of the earliest Islamic transitional era authors, the method had been abandoned, and to my knowledge none of the current Traditionalist or neo-Hellenist authors (or leaders) have engaged in this method, nor have used it in coming to a dignity/detriment evaluative determination regarding planets in a chart-but it was characteristic of NON-PTOLEMAIC Hellenist delineative practice, now long forgotten...

Marius Cojoc
10-14-2013, 08:25 AM
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AquarianEssence
10-14-2013, 02:58 PM
Since there is so much going on with the US right now, how about using our chart. This one is set for sunrise, valid regardless of what time independence was actually declared. Notice that Sun is under "hora" of the Moon-Selene, according to Dr. Farr. Ascendant is Anareta (Asc+Moon-1R), Sun is hyleg, as always at sunrise. In the Sibley chart, Sun rules Anareta so this critical degree Sun just can't escape being the source of it's own downfall. I believe ascendant, ruled by Jupiter is hyleg in that chart. Here's a book that addresses the Babylonian use of dodekatemorion, dwads. (http://books.google.com/books?id=vYluiWFPsjMC&pg=PA159&lpg=PA159&dq=dodekatemorion&source=bl&ots=SJ34M3m85b&sig=HvXjUiqHcrBtdsqWbXRGGoTGzEI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=SwBcUqaiJYz6kQeaz4DYBQ&ved=0CIsBEOgBMA4#v=onepage&q=dodekatemorion&f=false)

Marius Cojoc
10-14-2013, 08:14 PM
msg deleted

AquarianEssence
10-14-2013, 10:00 PM
Excellent, Marius. Thank you. I have a couple of questions though. By phasis, do you mean aspects? I see you disagree with Ptolemy and Lily, giving Venus water by day. I agree that having Moon in the 8th house is not good, given that this chart shows the life being breathed into the nation (Sun rising). It's interesting that our rebellion against the mother land had a lot to do with taxes yet, here we see the part of fortune in the same house, where taxes are collected, with mother close by. Perhaps this chart reflects the rebellion motive rather than how we will do it better in the future. Yet, Saturn is strong by sign, triplicity and face. In my mind, the fixed interception across the 5/11 axis describes a need to find balance when creating and distributing tax revenue. This interception could also describe government supported birth control and abortion too. What bothers me most about this chart is that Saturn is so strong and rules the 7th, opposing the nation on our own soil, square Sun and Jupiter. We appear quite vulnerable when looked at this way. But, he receives Jupiter by term. This reminds me of Japan coming from the West (Libra) when they attacked Pearl Harbor, a powerful enemy (Saturn exalted), but surrendered under our terms.

JUPITERASC
10-14-2013, 10:32 PM
Excellent, Marius. Thank you. I have a couple of questions though. By phasis, do you mean aspects?

When a planet is making a Station and/or phasis, it is not only capable of appearing but is also intensified
Robert Schmidt says Phasis means “making an appearance”
or “sudden dramatic showing of something”.
It can also mean “something that speaks”
or we can say that it means “an appearance that speaks”.


Phasis describes a planet making a heliacal rising (rising before the sun) (standardized to 15 degrees by Hellenistic astrology) within 7 days before of after native’s birth.

Rumen Kolev one of the few living practitioners of Ancient Babylonian Astrology based on his own observations of the skies, states that the 15º standardisation is obviously a variable dependent upon local conditions http://www.babylonianastrology.com/


CONDITIONS RELATIVE TO THE SUN

When a planet is in the interval from heliacal rising up to first station
or from second station up to the heliacal setting,
the planet is capable of appearing
and therefore is in a place conducive to the conduct of its business .

The heliacal rising of a star (or other body such as the moon, a planet or a constellation) occurs when it first becomes visible above the eastern horizon for a brief moment just before sunrise, after a period of time when it had not been visible http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliacal_rising

When any planet is “under the sun’s beams” i.e. within 15 ecliptic degrees of the sun, the planet is considered not capable of conducting its business due to being “drained or unempowered”. However, there are modifications to this such as if a planet is in its Exaltation, own terms or own bounds or dignity, then the planet is considered to be “in its own chariot” and therefore “protected and/or shielded” from the potential 'harm' of combustion.

When a planet is in the interval of first station to second station (i.e. retrograde), the planet is not fit to conduct its business because it is described as “walking backwards”

Robert Schmidt's translations of Vettius Valens http://www.projecthindsight.com/ AND VETTIUS VALENS FREE PDF TRANSLATED BY PROFESSOR RILEY http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/Vettius%20Valens%20entire.pdf :smile:

AquarianEssence
10-14-2013, 10:43 PM
Thank you, JupiterAsc. Very helpful. :)

tsmall
10-15-2013, 03:08 AM
I would caution, at the risk of turning a thread about peregrine planets into a debate on which chart is the accurate one for the US, but using any chart dated for 1776 would not be reflective of our country. The Declaration of Independence was not the birth of the nation. We had to fight a whole war first.

The Constitution wasn't completely ratified until 1787. I only point this out because using a sunrise chart for the day the Delcaration of Independence was signed has merit, but only for the war itself. Not for the birth of a nation. It is very, very clear in the Declaration that each state sought sovereignty, not that they were unified into an entire country.

AquarianEssence, you have a couple of times likened peregrine planets to your own chart, and interpreted them based on your own life experiences. Perhaps putting up your chart to show us exactly what you mean would help? I know it would help me answer the direct references you make to it. Keeping in mind that we may describe how to interpret peregrine planets, but each individual interpretation of how they will affect the native is chart specific.

AquarianEssence
10-15-2013, 04:55 PM
It's linked on the bottom of my posts, "my nativity". Just ignore the hypotheticals. I think when I uploaded it years ago, there was a discussion that involved transpluto going on.

AquarianEssence
10-15-2013, 10:19 PM
I disagree that Zosma is selfish and takes advantage of others financially (barring other factors that lean this way). A mother is quite selfless and must depend on another for income when she is childbearing. The "belt" is probably the baby she carries, legs wrapped around her hips. Robson is the one that put all the negative qualities with it. Not all saw it that way. To the Egyptians, according to Hewitt these stars, Delta Leo, Zosma, with theta or Coxa, were Mes-su, the Heart of Su [messu is Egyptian for "anointed one," from which the word "messiah" comes. The child Horus was the messu of the inundation.

The tendency toward stressing the health of women is likely due to the stress placed on the body, especially this part of the body, through child bearing and through hard manual labor. Also, an employer brings income in through employees. Not all are selfish. I was researching the Arabic name, Duhr or Dhur. It means back but also noon, meridian, appeared, emerged. The word doesn't actually start with the normal D. It is the dzh sound so is also pronounced sort of like Zuhr. It makes sense if you think about it. The back bone is our meridian, the noon, reversed as midnight, part of our body. It's interesting that Zosma is associated with the ability to prophesy and the current tropical degree is connected to astrologers.

tsmall
10-15-2013, 11:07 PM
It's linked on the bottom of my posts, "my nativity". Just ignore the hypotheticals. I think when I uploaded it years ago, there was a discussion that involved transpluto going on.

:andy: Hypotheticals indeed, lol. I think I could spend hours just trying to figure out what they all are. :surprised:

It is Saturn, peregrine, that most concerns you?

poyi
10-15-2013, 11:59 PM
In US chart Helios is the Epikratetor (Apheta) and Zeus is the Kurios (Almuten Figuris). This is only a brief scheme of what I presented eariler.

Zeus is in a pivotal image, above the horizon. Zeus actions will turn quite easily, back to the Nation. Zeus affects directly the conduct of this Nation. Zeus is rising, oriental, direct and swift in motion etc. Zeus is in its own chariot and will not be affected by Helios beams. Zeus is acting quite straightforward in its undertakings but this will happen in a hidden way. Zeus its in own chariot in the Crab. Selene its not making a configuration with her domicile. Zeus will have the sole authority in the Crab and shall rejoice there. Zeus has the power to affect directly the things which its signifies.

Zeus fitness is quite good.Those particularities are describing the potential of Zeus and its ability to perform. This Nation could be marked through Zeus by prosperity, alliances, reputation, freedom and protections of all kind. Now we must see that if any of this will actually happen.

Zeus its in the Ascendant which is a place goaded in action. The eagerness of Zeus, to pursuit its agenda, at planetary level, its shown especialy by the phasis phenomenon. Zeus its not making a phasis. This is actually hard to delimitate. Zeus inherit Aphrodite as a trigon lord. Aphrodite is not in harmony with the sect of the chart but its position in the first place, shows a favorable wind in the first part of the Nation life. The doctrine of triplicities is derived from the doctrine of winds. The second trigon lord is Ares which indicate also a foreign wind. Ares is the Twins, 12th place so this wind will not be favorable for the Nation. Ares is marking a path with unpredictible events which will harm the prosperity, alliances, reputation etc of the Nation. This should happen in the second part of the Nation life. Selene is controlling the cooperating wind, which will blow permanently but this is an idle wind (8th place). It will blow slightly unfavourable for the Nation.

Zeus eagerness or level of energy is moderate. Anyway, the primary motivation of the Nation is marked by Zeus which its also the First Officer (Lord of the Ascendant), so it seems that this Nation it will be slightly eager to obtain prosperity, alliances, reputation etc.

Zeus is in the 6th place from the Lot of Fortune. Zeus brings prosperity, allinaces, reputation and protections to the Nation with the price of many casualties or through wars, enslaving others etc. Because Zeus is in disengagement with Helios and in aversion with Selene, the jupiterian effect will be not long-lasting. First image its conducting advantageous business for the Nation which is good but Zeus is in feminine, tropical and water-like zoidion. This means that the power of Zeus to do good will become dormant (feminine zoidion) as times goes by and after much struggle (tropical zoidion), the power of Zeus may come to be subordinate to others (water-like zoidion).

You may notice that Zeus is the ruler of the 9th place and the MC which means that the power of the Nation will be conducted (first place) and distributed (9th place) by oligarchs: judges ,senators, lawyers, priests, bankers etc.

These are all new to me. I wonder if you have any interest and time to share what you think about Australia while I live lol perhaps in another thread?

My interrest is to spread my knowledge and to learn more about this science. I subscribed to this forum because I think its offering much precious knowledge.

I am glad that you chose our forum.

AquarianEssence
10-16-2013, 10:05 AM
You motivated me to change my chart link, Tsmall. This one should be more pleasing to the eye. My desire is to understand more fully, the best way to use peregrine planets, along with those that are void or feral, so I can better help my clients. While I can be quite accurate most of the time with their horary readings, I can't be as specific as I'd like, as to their options. I know from my void planet experience that there seems to be (what's the word I'm looking for?) loopholes that appear. I know there is a better word but it escapes me at the moment. But, I know that understanding peregrine better will help me understand which part of any situation is due to that and what is due to the void nature. So, if you want to give your opinion on one, lets look at Sun, since it is both. You can see Zosma has moved in during my lifetime to shine it's light with Sun so I can attest that it is not a selfish star at all, just the opposite. I tend to go without my own needs met to make sure others are taken care of. In fact, I have brought injury to my arm nerves and spine doing just that. Perhaps having the star with a peregrine Sun is the best way to see this star in its raw form?
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j16/AquarianEssence/Misc/ConnieReynoldsWRKAE8_zps9a65be8e.jpg?t=1381916233

poyi
10-16-2013, 10:32 AM
After reading all these complicated descriptions and load of references which I am not intended to go through...I asked my boyfriend for I continue struggled to understand Peregrine planets.

He used condition of cats to explain to me.

A good cat has dignity got a home, nice looking, purebred, loved, good foods, comfy bed; Triplicity is second best; Term is ok cat still got a home in ok condition; Faces slightly poorer, detriment and Fall are bad cats, not mix breeds, mixed coat not particularly good looking, like to go to steal foods in the neighborhood, have a few fights in the territory; Peregrine is fully stray cat and homeless, full of worms, no foods, no bed, nobody loves and love no one else, just about survival, today only, no luxury of planning for tomorrow.

poyi
10-16-2013, 11:01 AM
He also said, this is all about Medieval Class System. Only works on Medieval astrology if I learn this system :pouty: meaning I have to read good old medieval English books. The Power/Status of a planet is allowed to Act.

AquarianEssence
10-16-2013, 01:29 PM
:surprised::crying: I don't think so. Actually, I know that is not true. This cat has a home, is loved, not bad looking and never steal food. For many years I grew and raised it, then preserved it for my 7 sons. Back to the drawing board. I am a mix breed though, as many Americans are. Actually, I think that makes stronger genetics.

Marius Cojoc
10-16-2013, 08:35 PM
msg deleted

poyi
10-16-2013, 08:57 PM
I am not given opinion as if they were the only answer. It was truly a 1 minute explanation from my boyfriend who is too busy at work with his clients. I am expressing my struggles on understanding and thinking perhaps members can assist me to learn.

Thank you for your version of explanation. But I do prefer simplicity. Maybe I am not smart enough for this topic.

poyi
10-16-2013, 09:03 PM
:surprised::crying: I don't think so. Actually, I know that is not true. This cat has a home, is loved, not bad looking and never steal food. For many years I grew and raised it, then preserved it for my 7 sons. Back to the drawing board. I am a mix breed though, as many Americans are. Actually, I think that makes stronger genetics.

Lol he didn't literally mean that. It is purely the power and status of the planet. Not saying this person has this will be exactly the way the cat is described above. The condition of the planet how much power and resource available. I did ask him so if a person have many peregrine planets does it mean he or her be homeless. He said NO! Just the planet alone is like that. And of course other issues come in play but that was the most simple way for him to explain in less words and in one mintue.

Marius Cojoc
10-16-2013, 09:08 PM
I was talking about Australia. I read only natal charts and I don't belive that our countries are formed through written papers.

poyi
10-16-2013, 09:14 PM
I was talking about Australia.

Oh sorry for misunderstanding you but yes I do feel I don't seem to understand this mediveal system well. Wondering maybe I haven't got the intelliegece to do so. I have to relate on real life examples that's how I learn as a Virgo ascendant and Scorpio mercury sextile both Mars in Virgo and Moon Capricorn I need practical real life example.
My boyfriend it won't work for me unless I truly understand the class system in mediveal time which I don't even like to watch mediveal time movies...
Never good at learning from theories I throw them away as soon as I see them...just not my cup I tea. :D cause my mind will get really stuck. Just how but I am surely other people will learn and understand better than me.

tsmall
10-16-2013, 09:22 PM
Greetings,

From my understanding in short:

The domicile lord is acting primarily as a steward. Most of the time, its showing the manner in which something is accomplished. One of its basic responsabilities is to provide resources for its domicile. The domicile lord can speak about the beneficence or the maleficence of a given place.

The exaltation lord is acting primarily as owner and overseer. It is participating with the domicile lord in the management of the domicile. The exaltation lord sets the agenda which the steward (domicile lord) must fulfil. When the domicile lord is not in configuration with the domicile, the exaltation lord take all the responsabilities of that zoidion. This is available also vice versa. When they both make a configuration with the domicile, they are participating together, in the management of the domicile. The exaltation lord has the power to increase things, to provide magnitude in good or ill.

When the domicile lord of a given place is in exile, it will turn against the owner, wanting to exchange places. It seeks power and independence. Its obedience will be put in question. When the domicile lord of a given place is in fall it will surrender its power to the owner.

Trigonal lords assist in the management of the domicile, but they pursuing their own agenda. The trigonal zoidia are easy to recognize due to their element. For example, for the Crab trigonal zoidia are the Scorpion and the Pisces. If Selene and Zeus, don't have a configuration with the Crab, the management of the zoidion will be bear by Ares or Zeus according to their position and sect of the chart.

The confine lord sets the policy or the operating principales for a given planet. They are adverbs for that planet actions. They respond to questions such as how, when and where the action will be acomplished.

Trigon lords shows the manner in which something is nourished. They are sect-based. They shows the manner of growth of a given action, its development, progress or evolution. In the tradition they where used also in terms of motivation.

The peregrine planet (in the modern sense ) looses the power to affect directly the things its signifies if the the potentiality is low at all 3 levels (terrestrial, planetary and zodiacal). In such cases the peregrine planet will affect the things its signifies through its sect mates.

We can't compare one dignity with another. We can't give them points. Each and every one of them has a specific purpose. Its like Einstein saying "Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid". This is my opinion and my belifes.

My example of reading exposed above is just informational. Poy, I preffer to not give opinions on things which I don't master.

Very nicely explained Maruis. Many thanks.

poyi
10-16-2013, 09:39 PM
:surprised::crying: I don't think so. Actually, I know that is not true. This cat has a home, is loved, not bad looking and never steal food. For many years I grew and raised it, then preserved it for my 7 sons. Back to the drawing board. I am a mix breed though, as many Americans are. Actually, I think that makes stronger genetics.

Perhaps, if you are willing to use your real life examples such as your back injury and daily problems with the back and nerves as well as your father to explain how your Sun is peregrine?

Only if you feel like it.

AquarianEssence
10-16-2013, 11:32 PM
Marius, thank you. Wonderfully stated.

I was playing with you Poyi. I should have added a smiley after the others so you'd know. I'm sure it isn't that you aren't intellegent enough to understand this sort of astrology. It's just that the language is a bit different that Marius is using. For example, where he says trigon, I would say triplicity but even that may be foreign to you and might prefer those of the same element, water, fire, earth or air.

I'd have to think about it to give a full understanding but for starters, my Sun being in my 2nd house is intimately related to my talents and resources. My whole life, I've been showered with compliments from all direction, for everything from my creative abilities, music, art, all sorts of handiwork like crochet lace, tatting (a lost art here), smocking, to more practical things like my horticultural and domestic abilities, manual skills like assisting in building two houses, metal working (still predominately a man's world) and a host of other things. I received recognition through being featured in the local magazine and paper, being picked up by the AP so it spread out of state even. Some of those skills would be more Mercury like that Sun ruled. But, my children also fall under Sun and I've received a lot of praise as their mother too. Still, there seems to be a repeated theme that I should not expect a return for my offerings. An early example is a $200 loan I made to my father (the one that signed off legal rights so he was legally peregrine, not related) so he could buy a totaled car to fix and sell. He was a body man. I was 16 and was so proud I could take my measly income from waiting tables to help him. A year or two later I was planning my wedding and asked for that money back, since they had sold the car. My step mom, speaking for my dad told me they didn't owe it to me because she had shared her car with me (I used it to go to work, most often for her, missing school, because she didn't want to go in). The thing is, it was a loan and my birthday card that year said she was sharing her car with me for my birthday gift. I also put most of the gas in it. Besides that, I was 5 years older than her oldest, took care of them, cleaned, cooked, more than earned my keep.

This pattern has continued pretty much through adulthood. Although I didn't bring in a lot of income during the years I was raising several children (home schooling too) I earned through the savings of my handiwork. But it was never recognized and valuable and I never had a fair say in how the money would be spent, event though I was the one paying the bills on time and responsible for an excellent credit rating. After my divorce I ended up doing work that my body wasn't meant to do. The years of manual labor stressed my arm nerves but the work in the machine shop, working 10 hrs a day on a WWII manual lathe and other heavy work made it worse, also involving the ulnar nerve. I was too short for everything so had to compensate. I guess I was using over 50 pounds sideways thrust with my left arm to lock the clutch in, hundreds of times a day. So the injury couldn't have a chance to heal. Then, after I reported it, they ordered me to take a physical capacity test. I was so worried because I knew they wanted to fire me, I pushed myself beyond my limit and caused injury to my back, which they refused to acknowledge. I'm left with 5 bulging discs, one ruptured, etc. But, the doctor that ordered the MRI says it's nothing but age related arthritis. I guess he likes my Saturn better than my Sun. I was ultimately blessed because they did fire me, through a legal loophole in the FMLA. Most likely the loophole is connected to the void planets though. Yes, I did sue them. But, my point is, I find myself where I am not at all at home, not welcome or valued, yet praised for my talent and productivity. At the same time, there was a greater purpose for my being there. At the machine shop, I discovered they were covering up defects in medical parts and reported them to the customers, one being Stryker. They closed shop within the year. So, in a way, I've been like an undercover agent (peregrine?) without my knowing or intending that.

poyi
10-16-2013, 11:58 PM
I found your example very interesting. I will need to read a few more times. But it seem to be peregrine planets still have a lot of power of compensating in reality.

I can only relate to my boyfriend using a cat often coming to his garden for foods. He is not actually homeless as my boyfriend said saw him in his neighbor's front door and another old lady said he lives there. But he acts like as if he was homeless as if my boyfriend stopped feeding him, his coat will lose the shine. He is a very unusual cat so my boyfriend used that as an example to teach me. The cat has a home but doesn't belong to anyone, he does show love and affection in his own way but never let anyone to touch him. He received all sort of nice foods and door is always opened for him but he just simply won't move in. But he comes all the time for the meat. In a way, we always think that he is indeed loved by the old lady next door and by me and my boyfriend but somehow he likes to live like a foreigner only visiting. We love this cat very dearly but I don't think he know...:unsure:

And yes English is my second language and I have little idea of how the Western medieval cultures was like. Learning traditional astrology has been a difficult task mostly because of my own background. However, I am very keen to learn more. I will give it more time to search for examples to direct myself to learn.

poyi
10-17-2013, 12:29 AM
I was playing with you Poyi. I should have added a smiley after the others so you'd know. I'm sure it isn't that you aren't intellegent enough to understand this sort of astrology. It's just that the language is a bit different that Marius is using. For example, where he says trigon, I would say triplicity but even that may be foreign to you and might prefer those of the same element, water, fire, earth or air.

Truly I would understand straight away as in Chinese system we also have triplicity. 3 in one group for each element to form the four corners, East (Wood), West (Metal), North (Water) and South (Fire), each group is bonded by Earth element as the buffer to join in harmony of Yin and Yang energy (Middle).

I'd have to think about it to give a full understanding but for starters, my Sun being in my 2nd house is intimately related to my talents and resources. My whole life, I've been showered with compliments from all direction, for everything from my creative abilities, music, art, all sorts of handiwork like crochet lace, tatting (a lost art here), smocking, to more practical things like my horticultural and domestic abilities, manual skills like assisting in building two houses, metal working (still predominately a man's world) and a host of other things. I received recognition through being featured in the local magazine and paper, being picked up by the AP so it spread out of state even. Some of those skills would be more Mercury like that Sun ruled. But, my children also fall under Sun and I've received a lot of praise as their mother too. Still, there seems to be a repeated theme that I should not expect a return for my offerings. An early example is a $200 loan I made to my father (the one that signed off legal rights so he was legally peregrine, not related) so he could buy a totaled car to fix and sell. He was a body man. I was 16 and was so proud I could take my measly income from waiting tables to help him. A year or two later I was planning my wedding and asked for that money back, since they had sold the car. My step mom, speaking for my dad told me they didn't owe it to me because she had shared her car with me (I used it to go to work, most often for her, missing school, because she didn't want to go in). The thing is, it was a loan and my birthday card that year said she was sharing her car with me for my birthday gift. I also put most of the gas in it. Besides that, I was 5 years older than her oldest, took care of them, cleaned, cooked, more than earned my keep.

This pattern has continued pretty much through adulthood. Although I didn't bring in a lot of income during the years I was raising several children (home schooling too) I earned through the savings of my handiwork. But it was never recognized and valuable and I never had a fair say in how the money would be spent, event though I was the one paying the bills on time and responsible for an excellent credit rating. After my divorce I ended up doing work that my body wasn't meant to do. The years of manual labor stressed my arm nerves but the work in the machine shop, working 10 hrs a day on a WWII manual lathe and other heavy work made it worse, also involving the ulnar nerve. I was too short for everything so had to compensate. I guess I was using over 50 pounds sideways thrust with my left arm to lock the clutch in, hundreds of times a day. So the injury couldn't have a chance to heal. Then, after I reported it, they ordered me to take a physical capacity test. I was so worried because I knew they wanted to fire me, I pushed myself beyond my limit and caused injury to my back, which they refused to acknowledge. I'm left with 5 bulging discs, one ruptured, etc. But, the doctor that ordered the MRI says it's nothing but age related arthritis. I guess he likes my Saturn better than my Sun. I was ultimately blessed because they did fire me, through a legal loophole in the FMLA. Most likely the loophole is connected to the void planets though. Yes, I did sue them. But, my point is, I find myself where I am not at all at home, not welcome or valued, yet praised for my talent and productivity. At the same time, there was a greater purpose for my being there. At the machine shop, I discovered they were covering up defects in medical parts and reported them to the customers, one being Stryker. They closed shop within the year. So, in a way, I've been like an undercover agent (peregrine?) without my knowing or intending that.
My confusion here, is when I looked at your chart, I would say your Virgo Sun as very well dignified as Mercury is in her exaltation in the 2nd house as your talents. Sun in Virgo alone is in Face as per dignity table. This is a night chart, Mercury in Virgo is even stronger. And it is within effective orb trine to the North node as 2 orb and as 4 orb to the MC. Personally even there is no direct tight Ptolemaic aspect to other planets but Sun does aspect to the node and axis MC. The final dispositor Mercury is exalted, sextile exalted Jupiter in Cancer, considering only traditional planets here.

Actually if I didn't hear your idea, just a blind study, I would never consider your Sun as not dignified as the final dispositor is more than happy which to me is very clear that had given you much blessing on Sun related matters. Through there is issue with the Spine and Back as per your Leo ascendant with Sun not being very active in aspect to other planets.

But I would actually pay more attention on the Mars in Capricorn being in 5th house exchanged mutual reception to the Saturn in Scorpio instead and tightly conjunct to the IC, which made it essentially important to you and Saturn rules your 6th house and 7th house for sure in traditional. In medical astrology 7th house is the lower back as well.

5th house is the home of Leo and in medical astrology as the heart, back and spine. With Mars exalted there also gave you benefit on creativity and with offspring plus the Node and Vertex (modern) are there; but then Mars is Mars so it still gave your bone arthritis. You Saturn exact sextile to Vertex in 5th, your creativity and expressed is beneficial for Saturn in Scorpio matter (mutual reception to the exalted Mars) and you do it at home/home related matters, household skills.

Just my opinions, don't upset if I didn't make any sense to you. :pinched:

AquarianEssence
10-17-2013, 02:39 PM
Good morning, Poyi. Thank you for your input. Sun in Virgo alone is in Face as per dignity table.I believe both Ptolemy and Dortheus assign Sun to the 1st face or decan of Virgo. So, Sun is left without dignity. Yes, Mercury would have full reign but even he has a bit of a problem. His only major applying aspect is to (deleted unmentionable)

If we think of one quality of peregrine as being odd or strange (stranger, a foreigner seeming odd sometimes), the reasons I gained media attention would fit. The local magazine and television news stories were about our home schooling, when Michigan finally passed a bill to protect parents rights and the fact that my organic greenhouse and farmland was being being considered as part of a proposed landfill site because of the clay base. Homeschooling was strange to many because most parents don't want to be with their children 24/7 or. The gazette ran a Mother's day feature on the front page of the business section highlighting a mother with sons running a greenhouse. The picture they used was of me with baby on hip. I was wearing a mid calf flowing skirt, which was most comfortable for me. At that time, women weren't wearing skirts at all. I created my own. So, odd all around. Running a greenhouse organically is labor intensive compared to the norm. In this community, there are many traditional greenhouses, family run for generations, Dutch ancestry. I also specialized in heirloom flowers and herbs. This was very odd at the time but, the large greenhouses have all started growing many of my selections. Given my location and the labor intensity, I closed my doors after 5 years, continuing on with just the fragrant parts, essential oils. Not enough people were willing to venture out to foreign territory to find me. This would indicate that the Ascendant ruler has influence over the 10th and even 4th, that can nullify to a certain extent, the natural dignity of those houses.

As for my back, this doctor (a resident student) is denying what initiated my back pain, making it a rather strange diagnosis. It was not an age related incident, it was an accident or a specific activity that caused it. Not that this changes the back pain. It just makes me feel invisible, not respected, another need of Sun not being met. Actually, the injury can be seen through Jupiter (ruling the 5th) having been square to Venus (ruler of Saturn's bone structure natural house), passing that on to Neptune and then Uranus. It happened as a raised ever increasing weights in a box (square) over my head (12th house perhaps) and back to the floor. Using only the traditional planets, even Jupiter would be void of course.

You are correct that Saturn and Mars, as well as Moon, void or not, has seemed the most active in my life. Children don't pay the bills though, leaves me dependent on a mate much of the time. As for my creativity, I spent some time going to the art shows with my paintings but quit because often it wasn't appropriate to take my children and their dad complained about "babysitting" his own kids until I finally stopped. Now, I'm afraid to try painting because my arm nerves would flair, holding a brush all those hours. Actually, even my art might be considered strange because I love the beauty of nature so much, my paintings often looked like photos.

As for Sun being king of the land, we've had a few peregrine/odd ones in my lifetime. Kennedy was the first Catholic, Nixon a foreign spy in the Republican territory, Regan, the first actor, then there's Obama. Many are still convinced he wasn't actually born here. I believe it is Muslim law that their offspring are automatically Muslim so, he would be our first Muslim president, right? Hussein is his Muslim name. Apparently he is alleged to have lots of socialist and communist ties. So, peregrine presidents, perhaps. I must say that pretty much my whole life I've felt like an alien, a wanderer sent here for some purpose I wasn't aware of, like an undercover agent for good. Think about it this way. If a person was chosen to incarnate into a family to make change, wouldn't they need to be of a different kind? If the evolutionary genetics were the same, they would simply carry out the sins of their fathers, so to speak. I've tended to think of my void planets in this way but it is hard for me to determine what part of it is the nature of the void and what is peregrine. I think it is important that I not know what I'm getting into because if I did, I would avoid these situations. So, perhaps my voids protect my innocence or naivety (void having the guard down) so that I enter where I need to be. The peregrine nature assures I will do something about what is not right or needs challenging.

Marius, and Dr. Farr, do you agree with this idea that peregrine can mean odd or of a different sort than is the norm?

poyi
10-17-2013, 02:48 PM
Maybe I got it wrong again. But isn't Face also part of the dignity? Unless you are assessing it based on no Ptolemaic aspect? But will be Tyl's version of Peregrine....which was how we started this conversation from.

Peregrine

A planet is defined as peregrine when it has no level of rulership over its position. That is, it is not placed in the sign(s) that it rules, nor those where it is exalted, nor does it rule the triplicity, or the terms or face where it is located. Such a planet is therefore seen as having little influence or control over its environment. In symbolic terms, it describes a drifter - someone with no title or stake in his or her environment. In matters of theft, for example, peregrine planets fall under suspicion in the same way that strangers are often viewed with suspicion. In other matters it might portray someone who lacks a clear sense of focus, a sense of feeling 'lost' or on the outside of community thinking; or an inability to identify clear goals or offer resolute commitments to others.

Mutual reception does not stop a planet being defined as peregrine, although it will of course influence the description of how the planet operates.
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/peregrine.html

poyi
10-17-2013, 03:15 PM
I think considering exalted Jupiter in traditional being void of course would be talking about your having many children but not helpful. The Venus square Jupiter is 5 orbs and separating not very significant in my opinion. Venus has no relationship ruling the houses related to health, 1st, 6th, 8th or 12th.

Jupiter as you said do have traditional rulership over the 8th house and trapped in the 12th void of course. Moon as ruler of this supposed to be exalted Jupiter, is in her fall. But final dispositor Mars/Saturn are not too bad so the actually 5th house still fine. Jupiter also opposite to the modern use Chiron in 1 orb.

To use only very tight orb, Moon has significant opposition to the anti Part of Fortune, which is useful to indicate health problems. The opposite point of Part of Fortune indicates misfortune as per Horary and once dr farr had mentioned of this use. Mars is the ruler of the Moon. Back to the mutual reception of Mars and Saturn. Saturn at the IC, always always is the most important planet. It is indicating as Mars in 5th, 6th, 7th being the areas of attention in your life.

In term of nerve problem with your arm, any indicator from progressed Mercury ruler of the 11th, progressed Venus ruler of natal 3rd?

Anyway, in case we go too far from this topic. I would love to hear how other determine Peregrine planets using your chart as example. Thank you for sharing your chart and information.

poyi
10-17-2013, 03:30 PM
If we are following Ptolemy's rules, Sun can only be Peregrine when in the signs of Taurus, Cancer, and Pisces.

Actually that made sense, my sister is Taurus, and my ex was Cancer and his Moon in Capricorn is also feral, they both can't make up their mind most of the time in daily living matter.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/im/dignities2.gif

AquarianEssence
10-17-2013, 04:05 PM
Sun only has dignity in the first 10° of Virgo, ruling the face. Mine is beyond that degree. I don't follow Tyl's definition and that was one of my reasons for participating here. We shouldn't be redefining words because that only causes confusion and creates opportunity for more disrespect toward astrology. I think the same about Brady's system of naming the Saros Series. We should use the universal language as much as possible, not give them different names than astronomers do.

I was trying to force one too large (Jupiter) into a small hole (square Venus, covers round things). I was literally jumping and using the force of my whole body to try to get it in when I suddenly had a horrible pain. So, I kept on, trying to only use the other arm. After I complained enough, one smart man realized the other had put the wrong tool in. They should have allowed me to set the job up. As I said though, it was a blessing because this is what propelled me into astrology as a vocation. I am limited as to how much I can do at one time though.

poyi
10-17-2013, 04:37 PM
I see what you mean by only the first 10 degrees is in Face. I obviously didn't have much understanding on the degrees part of the table. In that case, there are many more Signs for Sun can be in Peregrine.

But I still don't think the Venus square Jupiter in 5 separating orb is relevant....

If we don't use any outer planets and asteroid here (since this is traditional forum), would you be able to explain how this injury manifested itself?

For Brady's book, my copy is printed in 1999, the first edition was 1992 and your PDF version was 1995. I just couldn't believe she failed to correct herself for that many years. She didn't use the term the astronomers used may be due to copyright issue? Anyway, none of us will know unless we ask her via email about her book.

AquarianEssence
10-17-2013, 08:05 PM
I agree the separating aspects aren't as important, other than that is what is already built in, like the foundation. I have the date of the back injury but not the arm. But, when I started that job, Sun opposed N Moon, Mercury opposed N Venus, Moon opp. N Asc, (deleted unmentionable) Perhaps one important clue is Mars trine N Saturn, opposed N Mars at the start of this job. I believe when it happened, Saturn was transiting the 12th, square Venus 3 times, due to retrograde.

No, not a copyright issue, but I don't want to get off topic any further. :wink:

poyi
10-17-2013, 11:13 PM
I found BOTH traditional and modern methods are very useful. Recently, I have been reading charts with both methods and mixing them together that really had given me very good results.

With modern, I too used Pluto but since this is traditional forum and I am here to learn traditional method so with both, respect to forum rules and traditional members as well as my own personal interest, I would like to stick to the rules to push myself to learn the package properly. So I try to remind myself and asked if AquarianEssence has traditional answers of your arm injury.

On the other hand, I think I made mistake cause you mentioned Jupiter being void of course but I forgot to check myself. I just realized my original reading of Jupiter sextile Mercury was still correct as by 1 separating orb which is effective orb.

So back to my speculation, Saturn and Mars mutual reception, and Saturn is by Placidus within the 3rd but conjunct the IC, that might describe you arm problem. In my opinion, I don't think Sun in Virgo 11 degrees 18 being in peregrine as simple as Virgo ruled by Mercury but arm and hands in particularly should be Gemini. It also does put you at risk of health issue regarding to the heart, back, spine for having Leo ascendant, but that is confirmed with the Saturn being at angular ruler of 6th and 7th and mutual reception with another traditional bad guy Mars.

For arm injury if we can't see in the natal promises, it would most likely be related to progression and solar return even eclipse on natal planet to be that life changing. But that will be off topic.

There maybe other explanations. These are just my attempts on figuring out.

Clinton Soule
10-18-2013, 12:33 AM
This may help, for according to the querant all Deb Houlding said about Peregrine applied in that horary, too funny!:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=66603 (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=66603)

Deb knows:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig4.html (http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig4.html)

And another definition:

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/dictionary/peregrine.php (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/dictionary/peregrine.php)

Definition of PeregrineForeign, alien. Said of a planet posited in a sign where it possesses no essential dignity: where it is neither dignified nor debilitated. It is employed in Horary Astrology, where it is usually reckoned as a debility. In a question of a theft, a peregrine planet in an angle or in the second house, is the thief. However, no planet is reckoned peregrine if it be in mutual reception with another.

http://astrotarotjo.wordpress.com/astrology/about/ (http://astrotarotjo.wordpress.com/astrology/about/)

Peregrine planets - a planet is considered peregrine if it has no essential dignity in the sign it is in. Peregrine planets are considered to be wanders, they have no real direction and not much power to act. They can also represent travellers and thiefs.

http://www.astrologicalpredictions.ca/news/horaryseries.htm (http://www.astrologicalpredictions.ca/news/horaryseries.htm)

Part 8:

Peregrine Planets:

When a planet has no essential dignity it is called peregrine. A planet has dignity when it occupies a region/sign/house that it rules or where it is exalted. Perigrine comes from a term that means beyond the borders of the field, where the field is home territory where it is strong and feels safe. So a Perigrine planet is one that is outside this safe zone, where it wanders aimlessly and is not at home in any way.

http://www.horary.com/gloss2.html (http://www.horary.com/gloss2.html)

PEREGRINE - A Planet is then said to be Peregrine, when he is in the degrees of any Sign wherein he has no essential dignity: As Saturn in the tenth degree of Aries, that Sign being not his House, Exaltation, or of his Triplicity, or he having in that degree either Term or Faces, he is then said to be Peregrine; had he been in 27, 28 &c. of Aries, he could not be termed Peregrine, because then he is in his own Term. So the Sun in any part of Cancer is Peregrine, having no manner of dignity in that Sign. This is very much material in all Questions, to know the Peregrine Planet, especially in questions of Theft; for ever almost the significator of the Thief is known by the Peregrine Planet posited in an Angle, or the second House.

In other words if the lord is debilitated and has no dignity, debility is a trait of Peregrine!:rightful:
.

Clinton Soule
10-18-2013, 08:23 PM
Marius Cojoc:

We can't compare one dignity with another. We can't give them points. Each and every one of them has a specific purpose. Its like Einstein saying "Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid". This is my opinion and my belifes.

But we can give them points according to Lilly on page 115 of CA as shown on this web page:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig5.html

Tsmall:

Isn't being in fall or being in detriment a type of dignity? Dignity = honor. Planets in domicile or in exaltation are dignified in a positive manner. Wouldn't planets in fall or detriment also be "dignified" just in a negative manner?

Tsmall, even Lilly thought by his words in CA about '...I don't know enough about fortuna..', in other words he had questions about horary also just like you are questioning dignities.


But you might want to study Ptolemy's writings on this concept of Dignity?:rightful:


http://www.timingsolution.com/TS/Study/astrological_cycle_overview/1.gif


For if you look at the Chart above it shows plainly what is in great positions and the Not so great!

http://mithras93.tripod.com/lessons/aphor/aphor.html (http://mithras93.tripod.com/lessons/aphor/aphor.html)

From Lilly in CA.

19. A Planet Peregrine, viz. having no essentiall Dignities where he is, he is malicious beyond expression; if he be in essentiall Dignities, the lesse; for then he is like a noble soule that hath his enemy in his clutches, but scornes to hurt him.

http://www.ask.com/wiki/Essential_dignity (http://www.ask.com/wiki/Essential_dignity)

For post-Classical astrologers, such as Bonatti (http://www.ask.com/wiki/Guido_Bonatti?qsrc=3044) or Lilly (http://www.ask.com/wiki/William_Lilly?qsrc=3044), the dignities had a hierarchy. The most important dignity was domicile rulership; slightly less important was exaltation. Triplicity rulerships were still fairly important in medieval astrology, but nowhere near as vital as they were for Hellenistic (http://www.ask.com/wiki/Hellenistic?qsrc=3044) astrologers such as Ptolemy (http://www.ask.com/wiki/Claudius_Ptolemy?qsrc=3044). Terms or bounds rulerships became very much diminished in importance, and face rulers were almost entirely ignored. (Lilly (http://www.ask.com/wiki/William_Lilly?qsrc=3044) said that the only function face rulers served was to keep a planet from being entirely peregrine—that is, without any essential dignity whatever—which was considered a malefic condition.)

I mean Tsmall and forum I get stuck from time to time on understanding horary, but not making fun of any astrologer's understanding or confusion but this is like saying '...if it rains could something get wet..' for detriment and fall are in NO WAYS dignified anymore than saying that '...if the sun cjts venus it gives venus power, ...it's combust unless less than 17 minutes from the sun..'.

In other words, in no uncertain terms is a Peregrine planet dignified by the negative descriptions from the table!
.

tsmall
10-20-2013, 05:17 AM
Clinton, you are missing much if you only subscribe to Ptolemy's dignities...and if you don't consider that even Lily gives in his own table several ways to mitigate the perergrine status. Including being in mutual rectption by either domicile or exaltation. Most ancient texts will say if such and such planet is dignified or recieved...with received (since every planet is recieved in some way) implying an that there is an aspect involved. Which is likely where Tyl got his noting of relabling unaspected as being peregrine. Peregrine planets depend solely upon their rulers, and if their rulers are in good condition and regard them, then that will modify the delineation. There is no need to chase our tails any further about it.

Most practicing traditional astrologers today use the Egyptian terms and Dorothean triplicities...but that is neither here nor there.

moderator deletion
Peace to all.

poyi
10-20-2013, 05:22 AM
Peregrine planets depend solely upon their rulers, and if their rulers are in good condition and regard them, then that will modify the delineation. There is no need to chase our tails any further about it.

So tsmall, you would agree with my way of looking at AE's chart as Mercury is in exaltation so the Sun should not be counted as Peregrine?

I feel so sorry the thread didn't go so peacefully. It has been very educational and I do appreciate the choice to practice with AquarianEssence's chart.

JUPITERASC
10-20-2013, 02:00 PM
So tsmall, you would agree with my way of looking at AE's chart as Mercury is in exaltation so the Sun should not be counted as Peregrine?

I feel so sorry the thread didn't go so peacefully. It has been very educational and I do appreciate the choice to practice with AquarianEssence's chart.
Poyi a comprehensive summary of the Peregrine state is as follows :smile:
No.

Peregrination is part of the Dignity Schema
and
Peregrine = No Dignity.

A Peregrine Planet has no Dignity, and there is absolutely nothing that can alter that.

Dignity = Comfort Zone

Many older sources use the Family Analogy to describe this Comfort Zone related to Dignity.

An Exalted Planet is like being in its own kingdom, being "da mayor" in your community or neighborhood. Think of the popes (and there were several) who would rape women in broad daylight in front of horrified on-lookers....and no one did anything about it.....that's Exalted, though in a bad way and not a good way.

In business, being Exalted would be like being the president or CEO of a company.

A Domiciled Planet is in is own home. You can pretty much do what you want. In business, that would be like having your own private office.

And now here's where Joy comes in --- you have an home in London, but you'd rather Joy in Kent (even though it means taking the train to work everyday). For business, you have your very own private office, but you'd rather Joy in an office with windows, or an office on the corner.

Being Peregrine is being a stranger in a strange land....often literally. There's an Horary Chart about marriage, and the Querent's Primary Significator is Venus Peregrine in Leo; Co-significaor Moon is Peregrine in Libra.

The Querent is literally a stranger in a strange land....an American in London,
and Venus is in aversion to all Planets except Moon and Saturn....which shows how isolated Querent is and how little power the Querent really has over her situation, and being that she is a very strong independent women, this move to London has really cramped, restricted and infringed on the life-style that she's been accustomed...she's alienated....and who is she harming? Venus rules the 1st and 8th (while Moon is in the 1st) and that just shows how much more frustrating it really is.

If you want to "save" a Planet from Peregrination, then you'll have to move Heaven & Earth...literally...to put the Planet in a place where it has Dignity.

You're confusing the concepts, which is understandable, since more often than not the texts themselves are very confusing, in particular because they often use words interchangeably, or they were (mis)translated as such, most notably terms such as "strength" and "power."

And then that is exasperated because Traditional Astrologers using varying terms.

Anyway, you have to develop your own procedure or methodology....that would be part of the individual style thing....so long as it's thorough (so you don't over-look anything). To do that, you'll have to evaluate a Planet's condition, and there are several components of a Planet's condition.

One is whether a Planet is Fortunate or Unfortunate. Malefic/Benefic is an internal characteristic of the Planet....you can never change that, but you can modify it through external factors, which is what being Fortunate or Unfortunate is all about.

Since there's a thread about Saturn, Saturn is Malefic, but Saturn is Fortunate when Diurnal; when in Capricorn or Aquarius, but more Fortunate in Aquarius; when rising ahead of Sun, when in Masculine Quadrants, Signs, Houses and Degrees; when Direct; when Fast; when in a Bright Degree or Fortune Degree, or Eminence Degree; when in sextile/trine to Sun; when in sextile, square (with Reception and not withstanding other factors), trine or joined/assembled with a Benefic.

Saturn in or controlling the 2nd House means the Native is poor?

Only if Saturn is Unfortunate.

If Saturn is Fortunate, then the Native will have Wealth, but how will that Wealth be acquired?

What is the internal nature of Saturn? Malefic -- so the Native's Wealth will be acquired through means that are generally Malefic in some way, shape or form.

That could mean acquiring Wealth through fraud, deception, trickery, brute force, through litigation, through inheritance or you might have to work really, really hard your entire life ---- a constant struggle to gain or maintain Wealth, and there's a possibility you may not get your Wealth until nearly the end of your life...Wealth will not come easy regardless of how it is acquired.

Jupiter is a Benefic, but less Benefic when Unfortunate being Nocturnal; when rising west of Sun; when in a Feminine Quadrant, Sign, House or Degree; when in a Dark, Empty, Pitted or Azieme Degree; when Retrograde; when Peregrine; when in Fall/Detriment; when in square or opposition to Sun; when in opposition to a Malefic (including Sun or Mercury if they are Accidental Malefics); when Combust; and so on.

Jupiter in or controlling the 2nd House brings Riches Galore? Yes. When Fortunate, and even when Unfortunate....

...but there will be a price to pay....the Native will be sorrowed, forced to sacrifice relationships with spouse, or children, or family, or friends, or their health, or their standing/reputation in the community, or their ideas or something like that....perhaps they'll have to sacrifice their own life.

There are Sign Joys. Obviously, Saturn Joys in Aquarius, and not Capricorn; Jupiter in Sagittarius and not Pisces; Venus in Taurus and not Libra; etc etc.

Sun is not "neutral." Like Mercury, Sun is an Accidental, meaning Sun or Mercury either Accidental Benefics, or Accidental Malefics.

Sun or Mercury applying to any Retrograde Planet are automatically impeded and become Accidental Malefics --- unless the Retrograde Planet receives Sun or Mercury.

Moon is truly neutral, but Moon is either Fortunate, or Unfortunate, and a Fortunate Moon joined or applying to a Planet helps the Planet, while an Unfortunate Moon joined to or applying to a Planet causes harm.

There are some 16 special conditions that define Moon as Fortunate/Unfortunate.

Saturn and Mars are inherently Malefic, but that does not mean they cannot do good or provide help. They can, and they do better when they are in-Sect.

I previously addressed one component of a Planet's condition, and that is whether the Planet is Fortunate or Unfortunate.

Another component is Sect, which tells you how capable a Planet is to perform the task it has been given in the chart.

The Sect doctrine is confusing, and the Sect Ruler doctrine is totally FUBAR, but this is what to look at:

Sun -- is not automatically in-Sect in a Day Chart. Sun is in-Sect only if one of the following conditions is met:

1] Sun in 10th, 11th or 12th Houses = Masculine Quadrant
2] If Sun is not in Quadrant I, then Sun must be in the 7th or 9th Houses, which are in the Feminine Quadrant, but those Houses are Masculine.
3] If Sun is in the 8th House, then Sun must be in a Masculine Sign.

In order for Sun to be in Hayz, Sun must meet two of the previous conditions.

1] Sun in Quadrant I and in 11th House
2] Sun in Quadrant I and in 10th or 12th Houses and in Masculine Sign
3] Sun in 7th House and Masculine Sign
4] Sun in 9th House and Masculine Sign.

Sun can never be in Hayz in the 8th House.

Moon is not automatically in-Sect in a Night Chart. Like Sun, Moon must meet certain criteria and is in-Sect:

1] Moon Above Earth in a Night Chart.
2] Moon in the 1st, 2nd or 3rd Houses in a Day or Night Chart.
3] Moon in the 5th House in a Day or Night Chart.
4] Moon in the 10th or 12th Houses in a Day Chart
5] Moon in the 8th in a Day Chart

Moon is in Hayz when it meets a second condition, namely being in-Sect and then also being in a Feminine Quadrant, House or Sign.

In a Night Chart, Moon can never be in Hayz in the 5th House.

A Planet in-Sect is competent to perform the assigned tasks (Wealth, Health, Children, Death, Relationships etc).

A Planet in Hazy is very competent.

Jupiter in-Sect or in Hazy, and also in a Masculine Degree/Quadrant is that much more competent.

A Planet not in-Sect is barely competent, and a Planet Out-of-Sect is totally incompetent, and again that's modified slightly by Degree/Quadrant.

An Unfortunate Planet that is Out-of-Sect is like a freaking Greek Tragedy.

A Fortunate Planet Out-of-Sect is like Charlie Chaplin, or Peter Sellars in those Pink Panther films, or Chris Rock in those Jackie Chan films. Or what's the British expression: "It's a fair cop" -- getting the right result the wrong way.

No, you still have Peregrine Planets...until you can move Heaven & Earth.

You misunderstand Reception.

Reception is about one Planet receiving another, and by receiving that Planet, it is being given the ability to act; to perform etc.

A Planet that is not received is impeded, because it is being denied permission to act.

If you are applying in aspect to me, and I am not receiving you, then I am denying you the opportunity to speak; to move freely; to take the stage; to perform your job.....


Astrology is full of hierarchies, and Reception is no exception, and neither is Mutual Reception. The hierarchy (strongest to weakest) for Mutual Reception:

1] Exaltation to Exaltation
2] Exaltation to Domicile
3] Domicile to Domicile
4] Domicile to Triplicity and Bound
5] Domicile to Triplicity and Face
6] Triplicity and Bound to Triplicity and Bound
7] Triplicity and Bound to Triplicity and Face
8] Triplicity and Face to Triplicity and Face

No such thing as Mutual Reception by Face or Bound or Triplicity.

The hierarchy of Dignity is

1] Domicile (disputed some texts say Exaltation)
2] Exaltation (disputed some texts say Domicile)
3] Triplicity
4] Bound
5] Face

Peregrine is no Dignity.

Triplicity is disputed as well. Dorothean Triplicity is based on Sect. Why are Sun, Jupiter and Saturn the Fire Triplicity Rulers? Because Aries, Leo and Sagittarius are Diurnal Signs, and Sun, Jupiter and Saturn are Diurnal Planets.

Logically, then, Earth Signs are ruled by Nocturnal Planets -- Venus, Moon and Mars, since Capricorn, Virgo and Taurus are Nocturnal Signs.

I find Ptolemy's Ptriplicities to be stupid, if not illogical.

I'm still investigating Morin's system; it's more logical than Ptolemy's.

Same is true for Bounds.

I use Egyptian Bounds, but there's a nice paper by one of the Russians on that (not Cornilev the other one)/

The Egyptian Bound system is a product of two things, well, three things actually: the Egyptian Calendar System, the Egyptian numerical system -- which was Base 10 and not Base 60, and Latitude.

As bizarre as it may seem, Sumerians attributed their calendar system of 360 Days plus 5 intercalated days to a "lofty one" -- a so-called "serpent god" whose symbol was the caduceus (two serpents intertwined around the Tree of Life) and who carried a red and white striped staff (like a Barber Pole), and they called him Ningishzida. The Egyptians claimed their 365 Day Calendar was given to them by Thoth, -- a so-called "serpent god" whose symbol was the caduceus (two serpents intertwined around the Tree of Life) and who carried a red and white striped staff (like a Barber Pole). Meanwhile, in Meso-America, numerous tribal groups claim they were given their calendar system of intercalating 5 and 20 days by a so-called "serpent god" whose symbol was the caduceus (two serpents intertwined around the Tree of Life) and who carried a red and white striped staff (like a Barber Pole), and whom they called Quetzalcoatl.

Anyway, the point is that the Egyptian Bound system changes, and Ptolemy not being able to understand that, created his very own Ptolemy's Pterms.

To calculate Egyptian Bounds, you must...

1] find the Vernal Equinox Point for your Latitude
2] divide the chart into 10 sections of 36°
3] assign the Planets.

Since the Major Years of a Planet are based on Bounds, that means if you're using the Hyleg/Alcocoden system, it's FUBAR.

And this....

"They can be mixed, too. Saturn in Libra, and Venus at 29° Scorpio receive each other by sign and term, which can help mitigate Venus' weakness in the sign of its detriment."

...is totally wrong.

1] Saturn and Venus are in aversion.
2] a Nocturnal Saturn is not going to help Venus
3] Saturn in Libra will be most likely Retrograde if Sun is side-opposite, which won't help Venus
4] a Nocturnal Retrograde Saturn certainly won't help Venus
5] a Saturn at 29° Libra would be in an Empty Pitted Degree, which would make Saturn very angry, and not help Venus.
6] if Saturn is Via Combusta that ain't gonna help either


However, being at 23° Libra only negates the effect of Via Combusta, and nothing more.

The Sun is still debilitated in Libra.

Spica is Venus/Mars, so to affect Sun it would require Sun to be in aspect with Venus or Mars, or be assembled with Venus or Mars.

A Peregrine Planet is Peregrine....period.

If you have three Peregrine Planets in your chart, then you have three Peregrine Planets and that's the end of the story.

Reception will either shackle or enable.

The only thing worse than being Peregrine is being Peregrine and not received, because that places severe restrictions on the Planet....effectively imprisoned.

Marius Cojoc
10-20-2013, 02:03 PM
msg deleted

poyi
10-20-2013, 02:08 PM
Rising, Setting and station are these similar way to what we do with assessing fixed star in paran? Sorry I am very new with traditional methods.

JUPITERASC
10-20-2013, 02:40 PM
Probably BobZemco wasn't aware that time about the lastest discoveries on the hairesis doctrine. The sect (hairesis) is based on the special moments (rising, settings, stations etc) that planets make in their heliacal cycles. This is stated by Porphyry in its Introduction. The quadrants, zoidia and places which are preffered by the planets etc are just rejoicing conditions.

In my opinion, you can't make a foundation begining with an astrological branch. It dosen't have sense to me to apply the rules of a horary in a natal chart. The horary will provide only what the natal chart promises and this is not available vice versa.
BobZemco has not posted on this forum for some time and therefore we cannot have this discussion with him
Nevertheless, to be fair to BobZemco I shall clarify that his response is specifically to a particular question from byjove - as follows :smile:

07-23-2013, 05:03 PM
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/image.php?u=7629&dateline=1223203852 (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/member.php?u=7629) BobZemco (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/member.php?u=7629) http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/images/futura/statusicon/user_offline.gif
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: On a web-site far, far away...
Posts: 2,129


Re: Strength of Planetary Joys
Quote:
Originally Posted by byjove http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/images/futura/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=342976#post342976)
So at least a planet can be saved from peregrination with Joy?



No.

Peregrination is part of the Dignity Schema and Peregrine = No Dignity.

A Peregrine Planet has no Dignity, and there is absolutely nothing that can alter that

JUPITERASC
10-20-2013, 02:58 PM
Probably BobZemco wasn't aware that time about the lastest discoveries on the hairesis doctrine. The sect (hairesis) is based on the special moments (risings, settings, stations etc) that planets make in their heliacal cycles. This is stated by Porphyry in its Introduction. The quadrants, zoidia and places which are preffered by the planets etc are just rejoicing conditions.

In my opinion, you can't make a foundation begining with an astrological branch. It dosen't have sense to me to apply the rules of a horary in a natal chart.

For Poy: http://www.projecthindsight.com/images/TablesPDFs/PIC-Solar%20Cycle-oba.pdf
By the way,I did at the time question Bobzemco's comments by highlighting inconsistencies when I made the following post :smile:

07-24-2013, 12:50 PM
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/image.php?u=6273&dateline=1309720309 (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/member.php?u=6273) JUPITERASC (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/member.php?u=6273) http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/images/futura/statusicon/user_offline.gif
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 8,561


Re: Strength of Planetary Joys

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobZemco http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/images/futura/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=488815#post488815)
I previously addressed one component of a Planet's condition, and that is whether the Planet is Fortunate or Unfortunate.

Another component is Sect, which tells you how capable a Planet is to perform the task it has been given in the chart.

The Sect doctrine is confusing, and the Sect Ruler doctrine is totally FUBAR, but this is what to look at:

Sun -- is not automatically in-Sect in a Day Chart. Sun is in-Sect only if one of the following conditions is met:

1] Sun in 10th, 11th or 12th Houses = Masculine Quadrant
2] If Sun is not in Quadrant I, then Sun must be in the 7th or 9th Houses, which are in the Feminine Quadrant, but those Houses are Masculine.
3] If Sun is in the 8th House, then Sun must be in a Masculine Sign.

1] Sun in 10th, 11th or 12th Houses = Masculine Quadrant
BUT
12th House is Cadent
SO Sun is modified regarding ability to act
so being in a Masculine Quadrant in that case does not exclude Sun from from being 'unfortunate' when Sun is in 12th
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobZemco http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/images/futura/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=488815#post488815)
1] Sun in 10th, 11th or 12th Houses = Masculine Quadrant
2] If Sun is not in Quadrant I, then Sun must be in the 7th or 9th Houses, which are in the Feminine Quadrant, but those Houses are Masculine.
3] If Sun is in the 8th House, then Sun must be in a Masculine Sign.

In order for Sun to be in Hayz, Sun must meet two of the previous conditions.

1] Sun in Quadrant I and in 11th House
2] Sun in Quadrant I and in 10th or 12th Houses and in Masculine Sign
3] Sun in 7th House and Masculine Sign
4] Sun in 9th House and Masculine Sign.

Sun can never be in Hayz in the 8th House.

When Sun is
2] Sun in Quadrant I and in 10th or 12th Houses and in Masculine Sign
and so in Hayz
and therefore 'considered very competent to act'
YET
12th house is 'unfortunate' and modifies ANY planet's ability to act
SO
Sun is not very competent to act when in 12th and in Masculine Sign
yet Sun is in Hayz DESPITE not being very competent to act
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobZemco http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/images/futura/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=488815#post488815)
A Planet in-Sect is competent to perform the assigned tasks (Wealth, Health, Children, Death, Relationships etc).

A Planet in Hazy is very competent

Yet an In-Sect Sun in 12th in Masculine sign is nevertheless Cadent and so is NOT very competent to act
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobZemco http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/images/futura/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=488815#post488815)
A Planet not in-Sect is barely competent, and a Planet Out-of-Sect is totally incompetent,

So 'a Planet not in-sect' is a completely different category from 'a Planet Out-of-Sect'
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobZemco http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/images/futura/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=488815#post488815)
and again that's modified slightly by Degree/Quadrant

Such as Sun in 12th in a masculine sign
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobZemco http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/images/futura/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=488815#post488815)
An Unfortunate Planet that is Out-of-Sect is like a freaking Greek Tragedy.

A Fortunate Planet Out-of-Sect is like Charlie Chaplin, or Peter Sellars in those Pink Panther films, or Chris Rock in those Jackie Chan films. Or what's the British expression: "It's a fair cop" -- getting the right result the wrong way

So Sun in 12th in Masculine Sign is a Fortunate Planet and In-Sect yet somehow unable to act - the film analogies are excellent - which film is that?

JUPITERASC
10-20-2013, 09:43 PM
QUOTE :smile:
'….My own personal theory about this is that the Medieval astrologers kind of made a mistake in treating the two sect-related rejoicing conditions as being on par with the primary consideration, which is just whether it is a day or night chart, and if the planet in question is of the sect in favor or contrary to the sect in favor......' Chris Brennan


'…...It is not that the other two conditions are completely unimportant or don't relate to a planet's sect status at all, but it is just that they are far less important than the primary condition, and that is why it is the primary thing, and oftentimes the only thing, that is emphasized in the Hellenistic delineation texts.

But then in the Medieval tradition you get the development of the concept of hayz, which essentially treats all three conditions as equal, which, I would argue, is a mistake......' Chris Brennan


'….I think that this is why the concept becomes less and less important as the western tradition progresses though, not because sect is useless, but because too much emphasis was being placed on two additional minor conditions whose status had been raised up to the detriment of the overall technique.....' Chris Brennan

Clinton Soule
10-20-2013, 11:07 PM
Tsmall stated:

Clinton, you are missing much if you only subscribe to Ptolemy's dignities...and if you don't consider that even Lily gives in his own table several ways to mitigate the perergrine status. Including being in mutual rectption by either domicile or exaltation. Most ancient texts will say if such and such planet is dignified or recieved...with received (since every planet is recieved in some way) implying an that there is an aspect involved. Which is likely where Tyl got his noting of relabling unaspected as being peregrine. Peregrine planets depend solely upon their rulers, and if their rulers are in good condition and regard them, then that will modify the delineation. There is no need to chase our tails any further about it.

Most practicing traditional astrologers today use the Egyptian terms and Dorothean triplicities...but that is neither here nor there.

AE, I'm sorry you took offense to forum rules and/or traditions. Clearly you don't think they should apply to you, and I applaud your confidence in stating that what I read, because it does not agree with your interpretation, is absolutely incorrect. Best wishes to you, as I won't be engaging with you in the future. I made an attempt to explain and include (Venus is my ASC ruler) which has clearly been rejected.


PLEASE, did he say PLEASE ? I have seen the greatest of astrologers on various forums get trapped under the Mercury Rx, and it is in the degree presently of where it goes Rx. Of Course the rules apply to me!

And yes, like everyone else on the planet I get trapped in Mercury's reverse to, and every astrologer but one has made mistakes!


And he was:

There are malicious astrologers who just can not quite grasp what we are supposed to be doing here: someday they will evolve perhaps after symbolicly they drive a few nails into the astrologers they they abhor wrists.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/--sc3U_ZoZdQ/UVfPrNS4pyI/AAAAAAAACPY/oD3Bfmpeoso/s400/Crucifiction_of_Jesus.jpg

NEW LIVING TRANSLATION

Luke 21:25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+21:25&version=NLT)
“And there will be strange signs in the sun, moon, and stars. And here on earth the nations will be in turmoil, perplexed by the roaring seas and strange tides.

The student of this astrologer, Luke who wrote this, IF the Church has not adulterated the words of the greatest astrologer who ever lived NEVER verbally lied, unlike most you will encounter!:rightful:
.

tsmall
10-20-2013, 11:58 PM
Probably BobZemco wasn't aware that time about the lastest discoveries on the hairesis doctrine. The sect (hairesis) is based on the special moments (risings, settings, stations etc) that planets make in their heliacal cycles. This is stated by Porphyry in its Introduction. The quadrants, zoidia and places which are preffered by the planets etc are just rejoicing conditions.

While I don't have the threads/posts to hand, I can unequivocally state that BobZemco was very much aware of risings, settings, stations, orientality, occidentality...his above quoted post was to point out what we have I believe been saying on this thread for some time now. One needs to look at the entire condition of the planet before one can make a judgement about how capable it is to bring about what it promises.

For purposes of this thread, there are two sentences from the above quote that most pertain.

A Peregrine Planet has no Dignity, and there is absolutely nothing that can alter that.

In its essence, this is a true statement. A planet either has dignity in the place it finds itself, or it does not. If it does not have dignity by exaltation, domicile, bound, decan or triplicity it is not in any of its familiar places. If it is further in its detriment that compounds the problem. If it is in its depression and peregrine it is even worse.

Reception will either shackle or enable.

The only thing worse than being Peregrine is being Peregrine and not received, because that places severe restrictions on the Planet....effectively imprisoned.

This is why every ancient text, including Valens, clearly states something along the lines of "if a planet is dignified or received." What is not always explicity pointed out (because the authors assumed that those reading would understand) is that "received" needs some sort of regard (aspect by sign.)

Every other rejoicing condition of a planet, whether by accidental dignity, being posited in its house of joy, being in the place of a sectmate, being in a strengthened state by solar phase, stationing direct...being regarded by benefics or assembled with benefics, having malefics turned away, being in its proper facing of the Sun, being in a sign and quadrant and degree that agrees with its sect, ect., all of these planetary conditions are important, because they will tell us if the peregrine planet will be able to affect its purpose, and taking them all together...how it will do so. Planetary condition describes the totality of the planet, of which dignity or lack thereof is just one piece.

In my opinion, you can't make a foundation begining with an astrological branch. It dosen't have sense to me to apply the rules of a horary in a natal chart.

I am uncertain of your meaning here. Are you implying that the very idea of peregrination is solely a term for horary astrology? If so, I would have to disagree...

tsmall
10-21-2013, 12:18 AM
I am uncertain of your meaning here. Are you implying that the very idea of peregrination is solely a term for horary astrology? If so, I would have to disagree...

AquarianEssence's referral to Sahl prompted me to purchase the Dykes translation Works of Sahl and Masha'Allah, understanding that they both take most of their instruction from Dorotheus.

quote is from pp. 42 and 44

Concerning the weakness of the planets

Their injuries are in the birth and the questions, and they are of ten types...

Eighthly, if the planet is in a house in which it has no testimony: no house and no nobility and no triplicity; and if the planet is a stranger...

The above is the translation of the Arabic (bolded emphasis mine,) and the below, ibid, is of the Latin

The eighth, that a planet would be in a domicile in which it did not have testimony (that is, some dignity): that is, that it is not in its own domicile or own exaltation or triplicity, and so on, and that it is peregrine...

tsmall
10-21-2013, 12:33 AM
Rising, Setting and station are these similar way to what we do with assessing fixed star in paran? Sorry I am very new with traditional methods.

Po yi, I don't think so, though I as always could be wrong. My understanding of rising and setting in this context is rising from or setting into the beams of the Sun. Are you following? Station is easy and you already know. A planet is "stationing" when it is turning retrograde or direct.

The inferior planets (Moon, Mercury and Venus) will approach the Sun, and when they get to within 15* are considered "setting into the beams." When they pass the Sun after conjunction by 15*, they are rising from the beams.

The superior planets, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn, are overtaken by the Sun (because the Sun moves more quickly), so once the Sun approaches within 15* they are said to be "setting" into the beams, and once the Sun has separated from the conjunction and moves away by 15* they are said to be "rising" from the beams.

Each of these phasis (phases? whatever the plural would be) are significant and carry their own delineation of how the planet will act.

Fixed stars (parans) rise, culminate, set and anti-culminate, but that is a different thing (JUPITERASC and Monk know better about these things.)

poyi
10-21-2013, 12:38 AM
Po yi, I don't think so, though I as always could be wrong. My understanding of rising and setting in this context is rising from or setting into the beams of the Sun. Are you following? Station is easy and you already know. A planet is "stationing" when it is turning retrograde or direct.

The inferior planets (Moon, Mercury and Venus) will approach the Sun, and when they get to within 15* are considered "setting into the beams." When they pass the Sun after conjunction by 15*, they are rising from the beams.

The superior planets, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn, are overtaken by the Sun (because the Sun moves more quickly), so once the Sun approaches within 15* they are said to be "setting" into the beams, and once the Sun has separated from the conjunction and moves away by 15* they are said to be "rising" from the beams.

Each of these phasis (phases? whatever the plural would be) are significant and carry their own delineation of how the planet will act.

Fixed stars (parans) rise, culminate, set and anti-culminate, but that is a different thing (JUPITERASC and Monk know better about these things.)

I am assuming... the concept of the setting/rising to the sun and the parans for fixed stars should be the same. But one is to the Sun, while parans is to the ecliptic :unsure: hmm maybe.

Thank you for spending time explaining to me. I still have a lot to learn about fixed stars as well. I only have a free report from Brady's site and her textbooks but no practical skills on application. I usual get the books first and worry about them later :w00t: I have a life time to learn, I will crack them up one day.

tsmall
10-21-2013, 02:44 AM
So Sun in 12th in Masculine Sign is a Fortunate Planet and In-Sect yet somehow unable to act

I believe you are missing the point. The point being that we must take in all the possible permutations of what a 12th house Sun, in hayz, could mean...and this is coming from someone with a 12th house Sun in fall and in hayz.

Sun in 12th meeting all the conditions of sect (Masculine sign, degree and quadrant) is a benefic. What do benefics in the 12th do? They protect you from the implications of the 12th house. Most importantly, they protect you from your secret enemies, and they protect you from self undoing, hospitalization, imprisonment, slavery, and even possibly large beasts. This will be even more so if the Sun in 12 is in the ascending sign, because the Sun regards or at least agrees with the ASC.

Planets in houses are more important than house rulers in deciding the here and now of how things are.

Being cadent will affect the house(s) the cadent planet rules, so the houses with Leo, and potentially Aries (because as Marius has already pointed out, house rulers are stewards and exaltation rulers are...da bomb) on the cusp will be very much affected by the Sun's cadency...but that does not negate the power of the Sun to perform where he is posited. Sun may not be able to control what he ought to rule, but he is able to affect his current circumstance.

Edit to add, if the Sun, though cadent, is received by and in aspect to a planet which regards the houses he rules, then the planet regarding will be able to affect for the Sun (depending on the totality of the Sun's condition, including aspects from other benefics/malefics.) This will be focused by the regarding planet that is in effect reflecting the light of the Sun and acting as a filter for him...and this would be yet another reason why we need to see an entire chart before we can even begin to judge it.

Marius Cojoc
10-21-2013, 08:13 AM
msg deleted

JUPITERASC
10-21-2013, 04:18 PM
I am assuming... the concept of the setting/rising to the sun and the parans for fixed stars should be the same. But one is to the Sun, while parans is to the ecliptic :unsure: hmm maybe.

Thank you for spending time explaining to me. I still have a lot to learn about fixed stars as well. I only have a free report from Brady's site and her textbooks but no practical skills on application. I usual get the books first and worry about them later :w00t: I have a life time to learn, I will crack them up one day.
Bernadette Brady offers useful insights and complete explanation regarding PARANS via a series of three free lectures :smile:

VISUAL ASTROLOGY LECTURE PART 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Cao-fyS3Ao

BERNADETTE BRADY VISUAL ASTROLOGY LECTURE
PART 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rc7-sUt5d9w


BERNADETTE BRADY VISUAL ASTROLOGY LECTURE
PART 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Qbi5djL1ZY

JUPITERASC
10-21-2013, 04:47 PM
QUOTE FROM A SKYSCRIPT THREAD http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7239&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=hairesis&start=0 :smile:

'…..One might attempt to summarise the development of haïrésis:

1. In Hellenistic astrology haïrésis , a reflection of the most evident astronomical phenomenon of night and day, was a major, if not overriding principle of horoscopic astrology with two major schools of elemental rulerships by sect that have survived in practice: Dorotheus of Sidon and Klaudios Ptolomaios, one major difference between the two concerning the planet Mars.....'

2. In Mediaeval astrology secta (Latin) became less important. Dorotheus' system predominated.....' posted by Lihin



'….3. In Renaissance astrology, the importance of sect declined further and Professor (of mathematics) Dr. (of medicine) Jean-Baptiste Morin proposed a revision of the system. Herr Professor Johannes Schöner also developed a slightly revised system.

4. In Modern astrology, the astrological application of sect has mostly been abandoned altogether. ….' posted by Lihin

Clinton Soule
10-26-2013, 10:45 PM
Tsmall and blessed Forum members,

I must say that have you ever been suddenly awoke in a situation that you were very happen the person who cared for you woke you as you may have been in danger?

Well this very thread has woke up my horary consciousness as prior like many horary artists I had overlooked what Lilly and other adept writers had tried to convey just as many Biblical scholars we are aware haven't quite noted all of the pro astrology lore and references in Christian documentation.

For I had a horary put upon me recently where the Lord of the matter according to Lilly was Peregrine and unless Tsmall hadn't have woke me up, I would have not have given the mutual reception between Mars(quarry) and Mercury(Large animals).

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=511290

That really spiked up this horary that was asked under a Mercury Rx:w00t:!
.
PDF drawing (for subscribers) (http://www.astro.com/cgi/h.cgi?f=recom&h=rec_pdfdraw&lang=e&cid=3eqfileBHv6L7-u1382661050)Save default setting (http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?cid=3eqfileBHv6L7-u1382661050;lang=e;gm=a1;nhor=2;nho2=1;btyp=2;mth= gw;sday=25;smon=10;syr=2013;hsy=5;zod=;orbp=;rs=2; ls=1;add=18;add=19;node=-Yn;fix=1;ast=&act=svchpref) http://www.astro.com/im/igreen12.gif (http://www.astro.com/cgi/h.cgi?lang=e&cid=3eqfileBHv6L7-u1382661050&nhor=2&nho2=1&f=halia&h=helpchpref&lang=e) Back to the chart selection (http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?cid=3eqfileBHv6L7-u1382661050;lang=e;gm=a1;nhor=2;nho2=1;btyp=2;mth= gw;sday=25;smon=10;syr=2013;hsy=5;zod=;orbp=;rs=2; ls=1;add=18;add=19;node=-Yn;fix=1;ast=&ntim=1382822978)Additional tables (PDF) (http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?pdf=d&cid=3eqfileBHv6L7-u1382661050&lang=e&gm=a1&nhor=2&nho2=1&btyp=2&mth=gw&sday=25&smon=10&syr=2013&hsy=5&zod=&orbp=&rs=2&ls=1&add=18&add=19&node=-Yn&fix=1&ast) http://www.astro.com/im/igreen12.gif (http://www.astro.com/cgi/h.cgi?f=halia&h=acrobat_pdf_free&lang=e&cid=3eqfileBHv6L7-u1382661050) with transits (http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?cid=3eqfileBHv6L7-u1382661050;gm=a1;nhor=2;nho2=1;btyp=2;mth=gw;sday =25;smon=10;syr=2013;hsy=5;zod=;orbp=;rs=2;ls=1;ad d=18;add=19;node=-Yn;fix=1;ast=&lang=e&stx2=s=outs=24)
http://www.astro.com/tmpd/c3eqfileBHv6L7-u1382661050/astro_2gw_02_willibagbiggame_animal_hr.77378.19884 .gif (http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&key=65de0a53c1a689fd56c43dc2576469ce&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.astrologyweekly.com%2Fforum%2 Fshowthread.php%3Fp%3D511290&v=1&libId=783d1513-df8a-42ef-8e25-8992f332eccc&out=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.astro.com%2Fcgi%2Fshowgif.cgi %3Flang%3De%26gif%3Dastro_2gw_02_willibagbiggame_a nimal_hr.77378.19884.gif%26res%3D75%26va%3D%26cid% 3D3eqfileBHv6L7-u1382661050&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Furl%3Fsa%3Dt%26r ct%3Dj%26q%3D%26esrc%3Ds%26frm%3D1%26source%3Dweb% 26cd%3D2%26ved%3D0CDEQFjAB%26url%3Dhttp%253A%252F% 252Fwww.astrologyweekly.com%252Fforum%252Fshowthre ad.php%253Fp%253D511290%26ei%3DyEBsUtf8MeqbiAKptoC QDQ%26usg%3DAFQjCNHz02RKbp1lC5pG5yWAX-5KgYvVRg%26bvm%3Dbv.55123115%2Cd.cGE&title=Will%20Querant%20bag%20Big%20Game%20Animal%2 0in%20hunt%20in%202013%3F%20-%20Astrologers'%20Community&txt=&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13828274089326)

AquarianEssence
11-10-2013, 10:22 PM
I spent some time looking through more ancient texts to see if I could find the origin. The earliest I've found so far is 2nd century. Vettius Valens uses the word, αλλοδαπός, translated by Riley as alien. "If malefics are in conjunction with or in opposition to Accomplishment, when this Place is not at an angle, and if they are alien to the nativity and in alien signs and degrees, they then cause destruction of property, even if the Lot of Fortune and its ruler are favorably situated." This is found in the Greek on page 118. The word means alien, foreigner or foreign national.

Ptolemy, from the same era, in his Tetrabiblos, uses alien to describe disjunct signs, stating, "" Disjunct" and" alien" are the names applied to those divisions of the zodiac which have none whatever of the aforesaid familiarities with One another. These are the Ones which belong neither to the class of commanding or obeying, beholding or of equal power, and furthermore they are found to be entirely without share in the four aforesaid aspects, opposition, trine, quartile, and sextile, and are either One or five signs apart; for those which are One sign apart are as it were averted from One another and, though they are two, bound the angle of One, and those that are five signs apart divide the whole circle into unequal parts. while the other aspects make an equal division of the perimeter."

It should be noted that Aries is disjucnt, according to modern definition, to Virgo, yet they behold one another, holding the antiscia degrees, considered of equal power by Ptolemy. Firmicus Maternus taught that signs 2, 6, 8 and 12 distant are alien, those that don't make a major aspect to the ascendant (or sign in question). This is because they can't "see" one another, are passive blind spots or ableptum. Applying this to Leo, Virgo is the 2nd, Capricorn is the 6th, Pisces 8th and Cancer 12th sign from Leo, all considered peregrine if Sun is there, for the most part. The section of Virgo and Capricorn where Sun has dignity is where it is close enough to "see", when there. When at the end of his own sign he can see into the 1st decan of Virgo and also at the very beginning, he can look over his shoulder while opposing Aquarius to see the final face of Capricorn.

I think the idea of a planet being peregrine came from this idea that the sign isn't making a major aspect to the home sign or ascendant, at least during the 2nd century. Yet, the solstice points played a special role, and all the opposites where the contra-antiscia are found. I've had the privilege of giving birth to my Sun contra-antiscion and my 2nd husband is my anti-scion. Yes, friction (18-19Aries Moon-Sun antiscion 11Virgo Sun) but it is completely different than the friction with my 1st husband of 28 years, Aquarius. I guess that makes me the yod in the triad we form.

I suspect this originated in Babylonian astrology.

JUPITERASC
11-10-2013, 10:45 PM
I spent some time looking through more ancient texts to see if I could find the origin. The earliest I've found so far is 2nd century. Vettius Valens uses the word, αλλοδαπός, translated by Riley as alien. "If malefics are in conjunction with or in opposition to Accomplishment, when this Place is not at an angle, and if they are alien to the nativity and in alien signs and degrees, they then cause destruction of property, even if the Lot of Fortune and its ruler are favorably situated." This is found in the Greek on page 118. The word means alien, foreigner or foreign national.

Ptolemy, from the same era, in his Tetrabiblos, uses alien to describe disjunct signs, stating, "" Disjunct" and" alien" are the names applied to those divisions of the zodiac which have none whatever of the aforesaid familiarities with One another. These are the Ones which belong neither to the class of commanding or obeying, beholding or of equal power, and furthermore they are found to be entirely without share in the four aforesaid aspects, opposition, trine, quartile, and sextile, and are either One or five signs apart; for those which are One sign apart are as it were averted from One another and, though they are two, bound the angle of One, and those that are five signs apart divide the whole circle into unequal parts. while the other aspects make an equal division of the perimeter."

It should be noted that Aries is disjucnt, according to modern definition, to Virgo, yet they behold one another, holding the antiscia degrees, considered of equal power by Ptolemy. Firmicus Maternus taught that signs 2, 6, 8 and 12 distant are alien, those that don't make a major aspect to the ascendant (or sign in question). This is because they can't "see" one another, are passive blind spots or ableptum. Applying this to Leo, Virgo is the 2nd, Capricorn is the 6th, Pisces 8th and Cancer 12th sign from Leo, all considered peregrine if Sun is there, for the most part. The section of Virgo and Capricorn where Sun has dignity is where it is close enough to "see", when there. When at the end of his own sign he can see into the 1st decan of Virgo and also at the very beginning, he can look over his shoulder while opposing Aquarius to see the final face of Capricorn.

I think the idea of a planet being peregrine came from this idea that the sign isn't making a major aspect to the home sign or ascendant, at least during the 2nd century. Yet, the solstice points played a special role, and all the opposites where the contra-antiscia are found. I've had the privilege of giving birth to my Sun contra-antiscion and my 2nd husband is my anti-scion. Yes, friction (18-19Aries Moon-Sun antiscion 11Virgo Sun) but it is completely different than the friction with my 1st husband of 28 years, Aquarius. I guess that makes me the yod in the triad we form.

I suspect this originated in Babylonian astrology.
QUOTE from Professor Mark Riley, California State University

'….. Vettius Valens' Anthologiae is the longest extant astrological work from antiquity.

It is unique in several respects:
the author was a practicing astrologer:

the work includes more than 100 authentic horoscopes of Valens' clients or associates,
including his own, which is used as an example many times throughout the work
the work also includes tables and the description of algorithms used by astrologers and mathematicians.....'



It is undisputed that Valens chronicled the astrological techniques of his predecessors
who lived at least three hundred years prior to his time

AND

the work of many of the authors chronicled by Valens has not survived the centuries

Therefore there is no SURVIVING evidence for the actual origin of the idea of 'peregrine' :smile:

Nevertheless it is possible to speculate, as you have done, regarding those possible origins.

By the way, since there are often newcomers to astrology reading this thread
and for the purposes of clarity for those newcomers,
who may be unaware of the fact
Traditional Astrology does not recognise the 'yod'

AquarianEssence
11-11-2013, 09:14 AM
Oh, you have read through the Babylonian cuneiform? I've only skimmed the translated Mul Apin. I'm sure you are right that none of the ancients used the word yod to mean an aspectual configuration but Firmicus Maternus and any of the others that refer to the signs 6 and 8 distant from the ascendant or any other point are certainly referring to this configuration, named or not. If it makes you feel better to chastise me once again, welcome to it. But I don't see how it benefits anyone to censor me to that extreme, traditional thread or not. Also, if what I have pointed out here contains what grew to mean peregrine, then what was given to them has survived, through their work. :wink: Have a lovely day.

JUPITERASC
11-11-2013, 09:27 AM
Oh, you have read through the Babylonian cuneiform? I've only skimmed the translated Mul Apin. I'm sure you are right that none of the ancients used the word yod to mean an aspectual configuration but Firmicus Maternus and any of the others that refer to the signs 6 and 8 distant from the ascendant or any other point are certainly referring to this configuration, named or not. If it makes you feel better to chastise me once again, welcome to it. But I don't see how it benefits anyone to censor me to that extreme, traditional thread or not. Also, if what I have pointed out here contains what grew to mean peregrine, then what was given to them has survived, through their work. :wink: Have a lovely day.
On the traditional forum only traditional astrology is discussed - that's the reason it's the traditional forum.

There are other areas of the forum where so-called yod's may be discussed.

Because no traditional astrologer has ever named 'the yod' therefore it is non-traditional

I mention that solely for the benefit of newcomers to the traditional forum who may be reading this thread and could mistakenly believe 'the yod' to be a traditional aspect. It is not. :smile:

P.S.

QUOTE FROM FORUM MAIN PAGE

Traditional Astrology (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=92)
For discussions on Traditional Astrology only.
(Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renassiance eras.
Specifically it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction)
and exludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) non-Ptolemaic aspects, as well as any asteroids.
The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction.
Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)

tsmall
11-13-2013, 04:53 AM
I spent some time looking through more ancient texts to see if I could find the origin. The earliest I've found so far is 2nd century. Vettius Valens uses the word, αλλοδαπός, translated by Riley as alien. "If malefics are in conjunction with or in opposition to Accomplishment, when this Place is not at an angle, and if they are alien to the nativity and in alien signs and degrees, they then cause destruction of property, even if the Lot of Fortune and its ruler are favorably situated." This is found in the Greek on page 118. The word means alien, foreigner or foreign national.

Conflation of two disparate ideas, likely brought on by variances in word/language meanings. If a planet is "alien" to a sign it rules, as in it is in a place of aversion to that sign (note, whole sign, not house) then it has no ability to directly oversee the significations of that place. Valens, I belive, refered to "Acomplishment" as Fortuna, though there is some considerable discussion that Valens for political reasons often obfuscated his meaning. For example, one could easily infer from your quote "If malefics are in conjunction with or in opposition to Accomplishment" as a reference, according to Valens' word usage, to need to replace Accomplishment with the Lot of Fortune. However, he (Valens) has also suggested that the place of "Accomplishment" is the 11th sign to Fortune, which also makes sense, as it is the 10th that initiates (cardnal house if not sign) and the 11th (succedent sign/house) where what is initated is brought to fruition...and of course it is destroyed or likely destroyed in the cadent house from the angle.

Ptolemy, from the same era, in his Tetrabiblos, uses alien to describe disjunct signs, stating, "" Disjunct" and" alien" are the names applied to those divisions of the zodiac which have none whatever of the aforesaid familiarities with One another. These are the Ones which belong neither to the class of commanding or obeying, beholding or of equal power, and furthermore they are found to be entirely without share in the four aforesaid aspects, opposition, trine, quartile, and sextile, and are either One or five signs apart; for those which are One sign apart are as it were averted from One another and, though they are two, bound the angle of One, and those that are five signs apart divide the whole circle into unequal parts. while the other aspects make an equal division of the perimeter."

It should be noted that Aries is disjucnt, according to modern definition, to Virgo, yet they behold one another, holding the antiscia degrees, considered of equal power by Ptolemy. Firmicus Maternus taught that signs 2, 6, 8 and 12 distant are alien, those that don't make a major aspect to the ascendant (or sign in question). This is because they can't "see" one another, are passive blind spots or ableptum. Applying this to Leo, Virgo is the 2nd, Capricorn is the 6th, Pisces 8th and Cancer 12th sign from Leo, all considered peregrine if Sun is there, for the most part. The section of Virgo and Capricorn where Sun has dignity is where it is close enough to "see", when there. When at the end of his own sign he can see into the 1st decan of Virgo and also at the very beginning, he can look over his shoulder while opposing Aquarius to see the final face of Capricorn.

I think the idea of a planet being peregrine came from this idea that the sign isn't making a major aspect to the home sign or ascendant, at least during the 2nd century.

You and Noel Tyl agree, though Tyl extrapolated the concept to confuse unaspected with aspecting a planets' signs ruled by either domicile or exaltation. There is a difference between a planet being "alien" to the signs/houses it rules, and a planet having no dignity in the place it finds itself. Alien in the examples you give from Ptolemy, and "alien" or "foreign" or wandering, lost, peregrine, have more to do with being in a familiar place, giving testimony, and reception. Thanks to this conversation, I did purchase Dyke's translation of Sahl. Dykes makes a very pertinent and interesting point in that back in the day, the idea of a planet being in a place it has some dignity gave it "testimony" in that place. This is more of a religious or judical concept, in that we need to consider what belonging in a religious way ment. If a planet could not provide "testimony" that it was in a place wherein it had some basic agreement with the idiologies of the natives, it was completly on its own. Not having "testimony" in its location, and not being able to "regard" the houses/signs it owns/rules are two definitions of "alien" that are completely different.

I suspect this originated in Babylonian astrology.

I suspect you are correct. I would even venture that it had its origins prior to Babylonian astrology.

I'm sure you are right that none of the ancients used the word yod to mean an aspectual configuration but Firmicus Maternus and any of the others that refer to the signs 6 and 8 distant from the ascendant or any other point are certainly referring to this configuration, named or not. If it makes you feel better to chastise me once again, welcome to it. But I don't see how it benefits anyone to censor me to that extreme, traditional thread or not. Also, if what I have pointed out here contains what grew to mean peregrine, then what was given to them has survived, through their work.

It wasn't a yod, though we can almost get there through understanding what aversion actually means. No one intends to censor you (which I have made clear in the past, and which you still choose to ignore) but when we are discussing traditional methods on the traditional forum, well, if we cannot respect the ideology then we cannot find common ground. A yod connotates a specific aspect pattern that is not, and will never be found in traditional delineation, with a specific planet or point as the apex. That just...doesn't work, because it is a modern psychological idea that has no basis nor interpretive value in exploring traditional methods. Discussion is fine, but there must needs be mutual respect and understanding that the discussion is bound by parameters in certain places in order for the discussion to continue. If you feel you are being censored, then please feel free to start another thread in a more appropriate forum.

Wisher1996
01-10-2014, 04:46 PM
hmm so what is a peregrine planet supposed to mean? is it a karmic debt, or a strength? because I know that sometimes weaknesses can be turned around and be used as a strength too... but I don't know if it is always the case. Say, an Unaspected sun. or a Mars in Cancer. What is the function really??

tsmall
01-11-2014, 02:28 AM
hmm so what is a peregrine planet supposed to mean? is it a karmic debt, or a strength? because I know that sometimes weaknesses can be turned around and be used as a strength too... but I don't know if it is always the case. Say, an Unaspected sun. or a Mars in Cancer. What is the function really??

Hello Wisher, welcome to the traditional astrology forum. :smile:

What is a perigrine planet supposed to mean?

It is a planet with no essential dignity where it is posited in the chart--not domicile, exaltation, term/bound, decan or face.

is it a karmic debt? As this is the traditional forum we don't deal much in the concept of karmic debt. So no, that is not what it is.

or a strength? because I know that sometimes weaknesses can be turned around and be used as a strength too... but I don't know if it is always the case.

It is a debility, but it can and often is turned around to be used as a strength too. Perigrine planets are in territory completely alien to them. Lacking essential dignity is basically lacking any resources handed to them. They have to work for everything they get. They are wiley, cunning, shrewd, and usually will find a way to use their environment the best they can, depending on the nature of the planet in question, it's condition, and the condition of its ruler--also what if any aspects it receives. As in, is there another planet or planets helping or impeding it, and if so which and how.

Say, an Unaspected sun

Just because the Sun is unaspected does not make it peregrine. An unaspected Sun in Leo is in domicile, and in Aries is exalted. The Sun in any of its other dignities would not be peregrine either.

or a Mars in Cancer

Mars in the first 7* of Cancer is in fall but not peregrine. So debilitated but with resources at his disposal.

What is the function really??

Well, define "function." Because the function is just like the function of every other planet in the chart. Peregrine is an adjective that gives connotative meaning in chart delineation. And, just like other traditional terms, there is a specific meaning attached to this particular adjective that needs to be read in conjunction with the rest of the chart.

If you'd like to see a chart with a true peregrine Sun that is also completely unaspected...

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=66443

Wisher1996
01-11-2014, 11:31 AM
Hello Wisher, welcome to the traditional astrology forum. :smile:



It is a planet with no essential dignity where it is posited in the chart--not domicile, exaltation, term/bound, decan or face.

As this is the traditional forum we don't deal much in the concept of karmic debt. So no, that is not what it is.



It is a debility, but it can and often is turned around to be used as a strength too. Perigrine planets are in territory completely alien to them. Lacking essential dignity is basically lacking any resources handed to them. They have to work for everything they get. They are wiley, cunning, shrewd, and usually will find a way to use their environment the best they can, depending on the nature of the planet in question, it's condition, and the condition of its ruler--also what if any aspects it receives. As in, is there another planet or planets helping or impeding it, and if so which and how.



Just because the Sun is unaspected does not make it peregrine. An unaspected Sun in Leo is in domicile, and in Aries is exalted. The Sun in any of its other dignities would not be peregrine either.



Mars in the first 7* of Cancer is in fall but not peregrine. So debilitated but with resources at his disposal.



Well, define "function." Because the function is just like the function of every other planet in the chart. Peregrine is an adjective that gives connotative meaning in chart delineation. And, just like other traditional terms, there is a specific meaning attached to this particular adjective that needs to be read in conjunction with the rest of the chart.

If you'd like to see a chart with a true peregrine Sun that is also completely unaspected...

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=66443

Hi thanks for the long comprehensive reply and warm welcome tsmall.

Actually, I really think my sun is peregrine. It is Unaspected in Leo yes, but it is also in the 12th house. I grew up in an environment very different from the normal, and inside I have always felt that here is this something in me that is very different from people around me. Sun in Leo 18 degrees.

Maybe it's how we define peregrine? Because I've read posts about how the Unaspected sun is peregrine, and so is the sun in the 12th house, and I have both. Also, I've read in an online astrology book that Unaspected planets in the 12th house make the person so stressed that vulnerability becomes his/her main theme. Well I ring true with that, especially in earlier years. Basically I guess peregrine means alien, and disconnected.

I'm just sort of unhappy, thinking why must there be such a horrible placement for a chart, and what is the purpose of having such a peregrine chart. If not karma, why so much pain and suffering? By the way yes my dad passed on when I was 6, and my mum and dad had a weird and distant relationship before his death, if this helps with understanding.

tsmall
01-12-2014, 02:33 AM
Hi thanks for the long comprehensive reply and warm welcome tsmall.

You are very welcome.

Actually, I really think my sun is peregrine. It is Unaspected in Leo yes, but it is also in the 12th house. I grew up in an environment very different from the normal, and inside I have always felt that here is this something in me that is very different from people around me. Sun in Leo 18 degrees.

Maybe it's how we define peregrine?

Again to point out that this is the traditional forum, and how we define peregrine is exactly how I have done so for you. Lacking in essential dignity. Sun in Leo is not peregrine. It's in domicile, how can it be peregrine?

Because I've read posts about how the Unaspected sun is peregrine, and so is the sun in the 12th house, and I have both. Also, I've read in an online astrology book that Unaspected planets in the 12th house make the person so stressed that vulnerability becomes his/her main theme. Well I ring true with that, especially in earlier years. Basically I guess peregrine means alien, and disconnected.

Did you read the thread about feral planets I linked for you? That chart belongs to my middle daughter. She has a true peregrine Sun in Cancer, in the 12th house and sign (it is important to count signs as well as houses) with Leo rising. The definitions for peregrine you are reading are a confabulation made popular by modern astrologers (most notably Noel Tyl) that is completely divorced from the traditional definition of peregrine. In the tradition

Peregrine = lacking in essential (note, not accidental) dignity.

Unaspected also undergoes a different definition, because aspects are able to be made by sign, not just orb, and before we declare a planet as being completely unaspected we have to check to see that all the other planets are in signs that are averse to the sign in which the planet is posited. Again I refer you to the chart in the feral (the traditional definition of an unaspected planet is feral, or wild) planet thread. Notice that if you make Sun in Cancer the 1st, all the other planets, as well as the ASC and Lot of Fortune are in signs that traditionally cannot "see/regard" the Sun? That is, all are in places that do not make a Ptolemaic aspect (conjunction, sextile, trine, square or opposition) to the Sun?

I'm just sort of unhappy, thinking why must there be such a horrible placement for a chart, and what is the purpose of having such a peregrine chart. If not karma, why so much pain and suffering? By the way yes my dad passed on when I was 6, and my mum and dad had a weird and distant relationship before his death, if this helps with understanding.

First, is your ASC in Virgo, or Leo? This makes a difference. You could have a Sun that is in the 12th house but also in the ascending sign (I do, with Sun in Libra above the horizon, ASC in Libra). That changes things a bit.

I would postulate that there is something else in your chart that you are overlooking in pinning your misery on a 12th house Sun. Unaspected Suns are not seeking to connect with anyone...believe me, living with and raising a child with this placement has taught me a thing or two about what not seeking to connect means. And in her chart? Her biggest problem isn't her Sun, it's her retro Mars opposed Saturn.

I honestly encourage you to post your chart in the RMC section and invite members to help you with it, because sincerely, there will be other clues there. Having a 12th house Sun, aspected or not, wouldn't on its own bring what you are describing.

AquarianEssence
01-12-2014, 07:21 PM
Welcome, Wisher.

Tsmall, I've read here more than once, the description of peregrine being people that are, wiley, cunning, shrewd. I must disagree. Of course, this would be a description of Saturn when he is more negative, in hard aspect, since he's been known to be shrewd. But, I've never experienced this myself. Relating this to my 11° Virgo Sun, I never lack being noticed but it is more due to my naivety or being placed in a compromising situation or doing something innocent that is unusual, thus peregrine. Example: owning an organic greenhouse, with the help of my children, whom I home school brought front page notice on Mother's day one year, and a magazine too. This was followed by this land being considered for a county landfill, compromising to say the least. A foreign and out of place activity, homeschooling when it was barely heard of, although very common a long time ago, as well as land fill waste being foreign to organic farming. Another example: an honest metal worker being instructed to cover defects on medical parts, the honest quality being foreign in that sort of environment. Women are nearly unheard of in this field too. A 3rd example: I am asked a question here and I innocently answer it to the best of my ability but that is too much, apparently. I end up being beat up repeatedly because I answered completely, like a gypsy or witch that is burned at the stake. :tongue: I'm sure that has literlly happened to me at some time in the distant past too. The end result of my peregrine Sun is that I often feel like I don't belong. I'm only here now because I think this needed to be said.

Kindest Regards

tsmall
01-13-2014, 04:52 AM
Tsmall, I've read here more than once, the description of peregrine being people that are, . I must disagree. Of course, this would be a description of Saturn when he is more negative, in hard aspect, since he's been known to be shrewd. But, I've never experienced this myself.

Welcome back, AE. I'm glad you decided to rejoin the conversation. :smile:

Before we can judge what "wily, shrewd, cunning" mean, we need to define those words. Remember our earlier discussion on the origins of the word itself, peregrine? It's like that. Those terms need not have a negative connotation applied to them. What are some English synonyms for cunning? Acute, deep, keen, knowing, sharp, smart (street smart) artful, astute, canny, crafty, guileful, sly, subtle, tricky, wary....

How do we know whether the peregrine planet will manifest the negative or positive connotations of those words? By examining the nature of the planet, the nature of the sign in which it is posited, its phase, condition, the condition of its ruler, and the aspects it makes or that are made to it. You may say the words I chose (as did Lilly, and Saul, and many, many other astrologers) describe a negative Saturn in hard aspect, but they could just as easily describe Venus. Because peregrine planets will, of necessity, cloak themselves in the clothing they find where they are, and use their essential nature to get their needs met. It does not matter whether it is your personal experience of peregrine or not, because as astrologers we cannot base everything on what we have found in our own charts. What holds true for one person will be completely the opposite for another, and it is our duty as astrologers to understand why that is so.



Relating this to my 11° Virgo Sun

I know based on our previous conversation that you can understand...there is extant literature, largely disregarded because the renaissance astrologers chose to ignore it, that states unequivocally that the terms (notice that the lights have no traditional terms? Do you suppose this is on purpose, or because their terms were understood to be...) of the Sun are from Leo up to Capricorn, and for the Moon from Cancer up to Aquarius. Thusly, your Sun is not peregrine.

I never lack being noticed but it is more due to my naivety or being placed in a compromising situation or doing something innocent that is unusual, thus peregrine. Example: owning an organic greenhouse, with the help of my children, whom I home school brought front page notice on Mother's day one year, and a magazine too. This was followed by this land being considered for a county landfill, compromising to say the least. A foreign and out of place activity, homeschooling when it was barely heard of, although very common a long time ago, as well as land fill waste being foreign to organic farming.

Unusual does not equal peregrine. I live in a zoo. There are alligators on my second floor landing, and on very cold days you can find all manner of exotic animals snuggling for warmth in my family room. When was the last time you were reading a book on your living room sofa and had a kangaroo leap over you??

A 3rd example: I am asked a question here and I innocently answer it to the best of my ability but that is too much, apparently. I end up being beat up repeatedly because I answered completely, like a gypsy or witch that is burned at the stake. :tongue: I'm sure that has literlly happened to me at some time in the distant past too. The end result of my peregrine Sun is that I often feel like I don't belong. I'm only here now because I think this needed to be said.

Kindest Regards

No one "beat you up" because you answered a question. The rules of the traditional forum were pointed out to you, and you on your own chose to ignore them. Perhaps that makes you unusual (it doesn't, really. Quite a few people tend to ignore the concept of traditional astrology because they feel that they are beyond the rules, or that the rules don't apply to them...this too has nothing to do with peregrine and everything to do with entitlement.)

I'm pretty certain that you will read my reply and think that I am 'beating you up' when in sincerity I am not. I have nothing but the kindest regards for you as well.

Peregrine planets. I have three. Saturn, Jupiter and Moon. No one need tell me what it is like to be on the outside, looking in. Peregrine planets are "alien, and foreign, strangers in a strange land?"

I went to 15 different schools from preschool until I was a sophomore in high school. Three different schools in the 4th grade alone. From South Carolina to Colorado to California, then clear across the country again to New Hampshire. The concept of alien or being a stranger in a strange land is nothing new to me. The idea of being on the outside looking in? I got that when I was 7, in an image that I can't remember if it was a dream or reality, but of looking at my Girl Scout troop from outside a living room window, freezing cold and wondering what, exactly, it would feel like to just for once belong to the girls an moms that were happily planning the next event indoors.

Peregrine planets have to work for everything they get. They have to learn how to survive with nothing taken for granted, how to "cloak" themselves in the clothing of the alien surroundings in which they find themselves...and it is their nature, condition, aspects and rulers that allow us as astrologers to determine how exactly that will happen.

I have peregrine Jupiter adhering to my ASC. In masculine sign, degree, quadrant, above the horizon in a day chart (we call that hayz here on the traditional forum)...and along the way, he figured out how to cloak himself in the clothing of the natives. I still feel, every day, like a stranger in a strange land, but as time moved on and things happened, Jupiter got "street smart", cunning, wily, wise. And it is Jupiter that has always and will always save me in the end.

AquarianEssence
01-13-2014, 10:46 PM
I attended at least as many schools growing up. But I can't say that I was born with street smarts, which should be true if one is born peregrine and that is what the nature of a peregrine body is. I've experienced much the same through Jupiter but mine isn't peregrine. It's in Cancer in the 12th, rules my 5th and 8th.

I know based on our previous conversation that you can understand...there is extant literature, largely disregarded because the renaissance astrologers chose to ignore it, that states unequivocally that the terms (notice that the lights have no traditional terms? Do you suppose this is on purpose, or because their terms were understood to be...) of the Sun are from Leo up to Capricorn, and for the Moon from Cancer up to Aquarius. Thusly, your Sun is not peregrine.

I don't know that. Would you care to give me references to where this "rule" was laid as a foundation? I'm not aware of it. I have to say that if monomoiria and duadanaria is considered a salvation from peregrination, then if Sun had terms from Leo through Capricorn, and as the vedic tradition says, all the first 15 degrees of the odd signs and last 15 of the even signs, then we might as well say that Sun is never peregrine, pretty much. Do you think that all these ideas should be enforced as rules? If so, why did most of them get dropped? It seems to me that anything that is valid would stand the test of time and not fall by the wayside. I also have to wonder if the ancients made a distinction between familiarity and actual dignity and strength. I am familiar with the Asian culture through my daughter in law but I would have no dignity there at all and would never fit. That said, I would like to look at how each of these methods, including the one you mentioned, was used, when and by whom, for how long, so I can decide if it is valid enough to add to the essential dignities. But, I don't think the one you're suggesting would work layered on top of the others. This would mean that Sun has essential dignity in the sign where it falls. For us Northern hemisphere dwellers, it is obvious Sun is loosing power during all of the months after Leo until Aries comes around again. I don't think we can divorce nature from our astrology.

But, lets look at one sign, Virgo. Sun rules 1st 10 degrees through face, 27.5-30° through duads, last 15 degrees through Vedic terms, being an even numbered sign, all 30 degrees through your suggestion, so, Sun is never peregrine in Virgo.

Did you know that there is a Jewish law more ancient that Hellenistic astrology that states that the fields must not be harveted completely because some is to be left for the pilgrims, travelers? It seems the universe might plan provisions for us foreigners. :innocent: The Indian diplomat that was just sent home without facing her indictment has a peregrine Sun too, 3Gemini. Actually, I often think of peregrine bodies similar to foreign diplomats.

tsmall
01-15-2014, 04:02 AM
I attended at least as many schools growing up. But I can't say that I was born with street smarts, which should be true if one is born peregrine and that is what the nature of a peregrine body is. I've experienced much the same through Jupiter but mine isn't peregrine. It's in Cancer in the 12th, rules my 5th and 8th.

I attribute the constant motion to Mars, cadent in the 3rd house but in the 4th stake, exalted, as the reason I moved so much. Whomever said that cadent planets don't bring change needs to have his head examined. Jupiter in my chart wasn't born with street smarts. Think Oliver Twist. You need to learn this stuf, either from experince, or from someone mentoring you with exprience.



I don't know that. Would you care to give me references to where this "rule" was laid as a foundation? I'm not aware of it.

You know what (and this will likely come as a surprise to those who think that traditional astrology must be "rules" oriented)? I hate rules. Loathe, dispise and cannot abide by them. What are "rules", especially as pertains to traditonal astrology? They can be two things...general observations by a well versed astrologer postulating his own experiences (as Bonatti does in his 146 considerations) or they can be "this is what was handed down to me by others but I never made a bit of sense of it."

Case 1 is completely experential, and it really, seriously does not matter (actually, I would postulate that it mattered more back then, when a wrong prediction could possibly cost you your head if you were the court astrologer) what the experiences of one sole astrologer may be in context with the general body of the astrologers of the times. Case 2 reminds me of an out of print book, "Alas, Babylon" in which it was remembered that salt is totally necessary to support life.

When we have no need of something because it is plentiful, we tend to disregard the need. When it becomes scarce...well, then we might begin to look at what those old fools who survived in worse conditions than we find ourselves were doing.

To answer your question, I had like five minutes to find one extant reference in the books that I actually own. So it would take an expert in Dorothean or other astrology to back me up, but I do remember reading about it somewhere before I invested in Introductions to Traditional Astrology...

Classifications of the sins: al-Qabisi

And the half of the circle which is from the beginning of Leo up to the end of Capricorn is called the "greatest half," and it is the Sun's half; because the Sun has sovereignty in this whole half just like the planets do in thier own bounds. And the other half, which is from the beginning of Aquarius up to the end of Cancer, is called the "least half": because the Moon likewise has sovereignty in this whole half, just like the Sun does in the greatest one.

poyi
01-15-2014, 06:27 AM
I did a minute googling to find this PDF it maybe helpful for clearing up some confusion, I hope.

http://www.leelehman.com/pages/images/Dignity.pdf
This article is easy enough for me to understand dignity table.

This astrologer also sells astronomical and astrological instruments.
http://leelehman.com/joomla15/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=140:brass-astronomical-and-astrological-instruments&catid=51:instruments&Itemid=93
They look quite stunning actually.

AquarianEssence
01-15-2014, 04:02 PM
Thank you, Tsmall, for taking the time to look that up for me. This led me to find a full portion remnant left in the field, "The Book of Reasons". What a blessing to start my day with. http://en.bookfi.org/book/1302930 Page 58 of 413:

Enoch said: because we know that these houses are the houses of the luminaries, they assigned the remaining ten houses to the planets.
(2) Accordingly, each planet was assigned a house in the domain of the
Sun and a house in the domain of the Moon, although one forward
and the other backward. (3) Therefore the astrologers said that from
the beginning of Leo to the end of Capricorn is the domain of the
Sun, and this is the larger domain. (4) The Sun has power in its
domain like the power of the planets in their terms; the same applies
to the Moon in its smaller domain, which is from the beginning of
Aquarius to the end of Cancer.[1]This is, by far, the most valuable text I've found, next to the mul.apin, which I am still trying to absorb. I am now ready to consider this as an essential dignity because I understand that each planet was assigned a sign (house) based on the domain of the lights. But I wouldn't call it the terms and that designation is the biggest reason it seemed contradictory to me. We can't have two type of terms at the same time. Domain would be the word used by Ezra. So there would be domain, domicile, triplicity, exaltation, term, face, monomoiria and duadanaria, as well as the masculine and feminine halves of the signs, to consider. Now to test this with some real charts. Beginning with the Confederate chart, provided in the Lehman link shared by Poyi (Thank you), Sun is at `5Aq, domicile and triplicity of Saturn, the domain of Moon, monomoiria of Venus, duodenary, term and face of Mercury (perhaps why they thought they had a chance of winning). Mercury would rule the triplicity by night but in the light of day, Saturn is stronger, all around. I won't apply the Vedic hora because this isn't a sidereal chart. If I did apply this to the zodiac, it would belong to Moon, being the last half of an odd numbered sign. No matter how you look at it, this Confederate Sun is peregrine.

Thanks again for your reply because it led to understanding of where this came from and why. As I've had time, I've also been looking further into the origin of the word, tracing it back through proto-Indo-European , where 'p' was 'b' and traced it back to it's origin, Sumerian cuneiform bar, meaning foreign, alien, outsider. Even back then, a-gar meant track of agricultural land, a field. But, it is very enlightening to follow the evolution of the word bar. In Aramaic it means son, house, offspring or descendants. In Hebrew, though, it means grain, pure, in possession of. The 12 tribes took possession of a lot of land, early on and the year of Jubilee was never awarded to outsiders, thus the wars continue to this day. There is no babel, once one knows how to understand it. By the way, I own Alas Babylon too. All my sons read it as they got old enough to be interested.

ETA: I just realized, silly me, that domain and domicile are really the same thing. Perhaps a better word would be kingdom or estate, rather than domain, the latter word being reserved for the planet that rules the sign.

Knight
03-05-2014, 08:27 AM
Why don't make it simpler ?

let's take an example: Moon.
My understanding is that:
Moon is exalted in Taurus and in domicile in Cancer: Essential dignities.
and is in fall in Scorpio and detriment in Capricorn: Essential debilities.
In all the other signs, Moon is simple Peregrine: pis,ari,gem,leo,vir,lib,sag,aqu
why to mix the detriment with peregrine ?
I believe Peregrine term is more related with the journey of a planet in a sign where it does not have any special affinities or any special dislikes. It simply does not mean something special...

tsmall
03-06-2014, 05:01 AM
Why don't make it simpler ?

let's take an example: Moon.
My understanding is that:
Moon is exalted in Taurus and in domicile in Cancer: Essential dignities.
and is in fall in Scorpio and detriment in Capricorn: Essential debilities.
In all the other signs, Moon is simple Peregrine: pis,ari,gem,leo,vir,lib,sag,aqu
why to mix the detriment with peregrine ?
I believe Peregrine term is more related with the journey of a planet in a sign where it does not have any special affinities or any special dislikes. It simply does not mean something special...

I understand how you feel; I felt the same way. Do you have any literature or other astrological references to back up your opinion? Did you read the thread?

Because I found, once I actually studied the ideas behind dignity, debility, and peregrination, it is entirely possible for a planet to be both debilitated and peregrine at the same time. And each of these will have delineative meaning in the chart. My suggestion would be to go back and try to understand why reception is so important, how it could possibly be that a planet could be debilitated (in a place where he has overt enimies) and how that can stack along with the concept of being peregrine...in a place where you have no allies. Hmmm.

I believe that, if you don't want to take my reference to Jesus into consideration, John Howard Griffin once wrote a book that could also explain the idea of peregrine with debility. It was called Black Like Me...

sworm09
03-06-2014, 06:56 PM
I understand how you feel; I felt the same way. Do you have any literature or other astrological references to back up your opinion? Did you read the thread?

Because I found, once I actually studied the ideas behind dignity, debility, and peregrination, it is entirely possible for a planet to be both debilitated and peregrine at the same time. And each of these will have delineative meaning in the chart. My suggestion would be to go back and try to understand why reception is so important, how it could possibly be that a planet could be debilitated (in a place where he has overt enimies) and how that can stack along with the concept of being peregrine...in a place where you have no allies. Hmmm.

I believe that, if you don't want to take my reference to Jesus into consideration, John Howard Griffin once wrote a book that could also explain the idea of peregrine with debility. It was called Black Like Me...

Not trying to beat a dead horse, but I agree with the above posters; a planet can be peregrine and debilitated at the same time.

Peregrine planets (from what I've studied) are in a "foreign land" where they don't know anyone and can't do anything without help. The way I think about peregrination (in a modern context) is like our modern day homeless wanderer, roaming from city to city. They don't have any place to stay and have to rely on others for help through hitchhiking, rooming with other people etc.

A peregrine planet in detriment is like being homeless, but not because you're a wanderer, but because you've been kicked out of you own house. You're wandering around and upset because you once had something and now you have nothing. Where a peregrine planet has the luxury (?) of perhaps meeting a stranger (domicile ruler) to help it out, a peregrine planet in detriment has the misfortune to be wandering around in a place where the people aren't going to help them. It adds much more vulnerability to the mix.

And finally a peregrine planet in fall is probably the worst. Being in fall is like being a slave, so peregrine planets in fall are in outright agony because they're far from home and subjected to a lowly existence.

At least that's how I look at them :)

JUPITERASC
03-07-2014, 08:01 PM
And finally a peregrine planet in fall is probably the worst.

Being in fall is like being a slave,
so peregrine planets in fall are in outright agony
because they're far from home
and subjected to a lowly existence.

At least that's how I look at them :)
According to William Lilly, Detriment is worse than Fall

QUOTE

'......As in taking the Fortitudes of the Planets,
great care ought to be had,
so their Debilities must be observed with no less care and prudence;
wherein I advise you to beware of the Effects or Influence of a Planet when he is in Detriment :smile:
rather than when he is in Fallhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig4.html#).

For a Planet in his Detriment is like a person cast out of all his Estate without hopes of Recovery,
whereas the Fall shows but a present subjection unto a misfortune with hopes of Recovery.....'
(Williamhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig4.html#) Lilly, 'Choice Astrological Aphorisms' Merlini Anglici Ephemeris, 1676)

Hathor
03-08-2014, 12:07 PM
After 40 years of astrology shows just how dumb I am. I always thought Peregrine was a falcon, ( smallish hawk like bird). Often see them hunting in the valley here.

Perigee refers to the point at which the moon (essentially and originally, but I suppose can be applied to other planets) is closest to the earth. Apogee can be defined as the point at which the moon, and such, is farthest from the earth.

One learns something new each day. Never too old to learn ....... :-)

JUPITERASC
03-09-2014, 12:46 AM
After 40 years of astrology shows just how dumb I am. I always thought Peregrine was a falcon,
( smallish hawk like bird).
Often see them hunting in the valley here.....

One learns something new each day. Never too old to learn ....... :-)


Both the English and scientific names of this species mean "wandering falcon" :smile:
referring to the migratory habits of many northern populations http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peregrine_Falcon

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A FEW DEFINITIONS OF THE WORD PEREGRINE

QUOTE


'…...adjective
archaic
coming from another country
foreign or outlandish.
e.g. "peregrine species of grass"

adj.
1. Foreign; alien.
2. Roving or wandering; migratory.

noun
A peregrine falcon.


Middle English
from Old French
from Medieval Latin peregrīnus, wandering, pilgrim
from Latin, foreigner,
from pereger, being abroad :
per-, through
per- + ager, land
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved......;


QUOTE

'…....adj
1. coming from abroad
2. travelling or migratory
wandering
from Latin peregrīnus foreign
from pereger being abroad
from per through + ager land (that is, beyond one's own land) :smile:
Collins English Dictionary © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003


adj.
1. wandering, traveling, or migrating.
2. foreign; alien; coming from abroad.

noun
3. peregrine falcon.
1350–1400; Middle English < Latin peregrīnus foreign
derivative of peregrē abroad =per- per- + -egr-, comb. form of ager field + -ē adv. suffix
Random House Kernerman Webster's College Dictionary, © 2010 K Dictionaries Ltd. Copyright 2005, 1997, 1991 Random House, Inc. All rights reserved......'



QUOTE


'…...Adj.

1. peregrine - migratory;
"a restless mobile society"
"the nomadic habits of the Bedouins"
"believed the profession of a peregrine typist would have a happy future"
"wandering tribes"
mobile, nomadic, roving, wandering
unsettled
- not settled or established
"an unsettled lifestyle"
Based on WordNet 3.0, Farlex clipart collection. © 2003-2012 Princeton University, Farlex Inc.....'

tsmall
03-09-2014, 03:54 AM
After 40 years of astrology shows just how dumb I am. I always thought Peregrine was a falcon, ( smallish hawk like bird). Often see them hunting in the valley here.

Perigee refers to the point at which the moon (essentially and originally, but I suppose can be applied to other planets) is closest to the earth. Apogee can be defined as the point at which the moon, and such, is farthest from the earth.

One learns something new each day. Never too old to learn ....... :-)

This will be my last post to this thread. I felt obligated to continue to respond because I created it, and because it really is important in the tradtion.

Hathor, it pleases me to think that you are still learning something, though your post still leaves something lacking in that understanding.

Here's the thing, folks. Where I work, we can make reports on statistics of all sorts of things. We can analyze a thing to death, but in the end if it has no practical value then it is worthless. If you choose not to understand, nor use the idea of peregrination in your delineative methods, then that is fine. I can produce a report about selling cost that most managers will not understand. For them, that report has no value. However, for those that do understand, the concepts of peregrination stacking with debility does have delineative value. If you are not one of those...fine. If you are one of those who can "get it" more power to you.

Addressing his pupil, Satyacharya said, "The science of Astrology is a great secret. It should be guarded with care. This sacred science of Astrology should never be taught to bad people. Nor should it be revealed to too many people and very frequently. It should be taught only to a few chosen disciples who really deserve and have the necessary qualifications."