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filly
12-28-2011, 03:41 AM
Hi to all!

My Sun is in the 7H-Taurus so it's suppose to be a day chart.
The reason I'm asking this question it's because when I was studing the Triplicities one Astrologer refered that having the Moon in Cancer override this rule.
I have Moon at the MC...
Is that true or was just a personal opinion?

Thank you in advance :)

Moog
12-28-2011, 03:47 AM
I've not heard that one.

Did they perhaps mean that they consider a planet in its domicile to overcome or mitigate any problems caused by it being out of sect?

I could kinda see that being a reasonable, if perhaps speculative, idea.

dr. farr
12-28-2011, 03:52 AM
Moon in any sign would not change a diurnal nativity into a nocturnal one; in the reference chart, the Moon also would be out of sect, although elevated by being @ the MC; also, you say the Sun is in the 7th house: is the Sun ABOVE the descendant line or BELOW it? If the Sun is above that line then you have a diurnal chart; if the Sun is below that line (ie, the line of the horizon) then you have a nocturnal chart (and the Moon would be IN sect and elevated and probably in great power)

filly
12-29-2011, 07:20 AM
I've not heard that one.

Did they perhaps mean that they consider a planet in its domicile to overcome or mitigate any problems caused by it being out of sect?

I could kinda see that being a reasonable, if perhaps speculative, idea.

I don't really know but it confused me enough to post this thread.
Dr Farr clarified this question above. :)

filly
12-29-2011, 07:43 AM
Moon in any sign would not change a diurnal nativity into a nocturnal one; in the reference chart, the Moon also would be out of sect, although elevated by being @ the MC; also, you say the Sun is in the 7th house: is the Sun ABOVE the descendant line or BELOW it? If the Sun is above that line then you have a diurnal chart; if the Sun is below that line (ie, the line of the horizon) then you have a nocturnal chart (and the Moon would be IN sect and elevated and probably in great power)

The Sun is above the Descendant line in the 7H so it's a diurnal nativity.
That's why it confused me when I read this. Plus all the examples that where shown and that I've seen until now didn't show any example like mine. First with Moon and Sun above the Descendant, and then the comment about Moon in Cancer changing Nativity as I posted. Though didn't make further comments if the Moon should be Below or Above the Descendant either.
Just wanted to check with the Pro's!;) Thank you!

Another thing that confuses me is that my Sun is in Taurus ruled by Aries.
So I should follow the Taurus triplicity, so it's good to have this triplicity(Moon, Venus, Mars) planets above the horizon or below?

I have Venus and Mars below. Moon, Saturn, Jupiter and Merc above.

Again all the examples shown put the Sun in a masculine sign or the Moon in a feminine one. I have all inverted and probably in the wrong sects as well!:D

Thanks in advance!

Rebel Uranian
12-29-2011, 11:03 PM
The sect of a chart is determined by the Sun being positioned above or below the Ascendant, not by the sign of a person's Moon. The planets reflect the light of the Sun, and less sunlight is supposed to be good for planets like Venus, Mars and the Moon, while more sunlight is good for the Sun (duh,) Saturn and Jupiter. There are other factors contributing to sect, such as the gender of a sign and the position of a planet above or below the horizon, but the Moon dispositing 5 out of the 11 points it has (which isn't even half) is not one of them.

filly
12-29-2011, 11:23 PM
The sect of a chart is determined by the Sun being positioned above or below the Ascendant, not by the sign of a person's Moon. The planets reflect the light of the Sun, and less sunlight is supposed to be good for planets like Venus, Mars and the Moon, while more sunlight is good for the Sun (duh,) Saturn and Jupiter. There are other factors contributing to sect, such as the gender of a sign and the position of a planet above or below the horizon, but the Moon dispositing 5 out of the 11 points it has (which isn't even half) is not one of them.

That's another thing that confuses me, as I said I've only seen examples for a masculine Sun and a feminine Moon...
The examples are very clear about the sect and the best location for the planets, have no doubt about those.

In a day chart as you say it's best for Saturn, Jupiter to be above the Ascendant. I have this.
And the planets of a feminine(night)nature are below the Ascendant(except the Moon).
But then my Sun is in a feminine sign... Would that swap this configuration around?
What I'd like to know is if the planets that belong to my triplicity which are Venus, Mars and Moon (don't recall the correct order, but doesn't matter for now) Still farewell below the Asc or should be above with the Sun.

Did I make any sense? :crying:

Rebel Uranian
12-29-2011, 11:31 PM
The Sun being in a masculine or feminine sign has no relevance to triplicity dignities for other planets from everything I've read, but there's probably something special I don't know about here, because I get what you're saying and I think it's interesting. Whoever knows that "something special," please post it.

dr. farr
12-30-2011, 05:00 AM
Remember that the Sun is always in sect, but more "potent" in a day chart; as RU states, the Sun being in a feminine sign does not make any difference UNLESS you are attempting an further (advanced) determination of dignities (personally I believe that the dignity/debility matter was ultimately taken to an unrealistic degree of complexity through the medieval and Renaissance periods, but that's just my opinion)

The triplicty lords (Moon, Venus, Mars) are all nocturnal sect planets, and never are in sect if in the same hemisphere of the chart where the Sun is placed. So, with your Venus and Mars below the horizon, they are in the nocturnal hemisphere of the chart and are therefore in sect; Moon is above the horizon so it is out of sect (but not "powerless"-the ancients went quite far with this sect thing, and taught that if a planet is out of sect IN ITS PERIOD, it was "powerless"-kind of like being in a pitted degree! What does this means? For example, say you had a night chart, and the Moon was out of sect because it was below the horizon and therefore in the "day" hemisphere of the chart: since this is a NIGHT chart, and the "period"(sect) of the Moon is at night, then the Moon being out of sect in this example chart means that the Moon would be considered powerless because it happens to be out of sect IN ITS PERIOD; another example, say you have a day chart, and Jupiter is below the horizon, ie, in the night hemisphere of this chart; since the PERIOD of Jupiter-day-is the nature of this day birth chart, Jupiter is out of sect below the horizon AND, since Jupiter's PERIOD is day and this is a day birth chart, Jupiter being out of sect IN ITS PERIOD would render Jupiter powerless in such a chart; personally I consider this "out of sect in its period = powerless" doctrine to be too extreme and do not follow it, but it was a key sect doctrine in the time period from the Greco/Romans right through to late Renaissance times)

Rebel Uranian
12-30-2011, 04:02 PM
According to that, all of my planets are out of sect one way or another. That means that I'd have no planetary influences. Oh wait, Venus is just barely in the opposite hemisphere from the Sun, so never mind. I wouldn't say I'm very Venusian. I'm the only person I know who never gains weight on the holidays. I'm also not good at letting people walk all over me. I mean that I'm worse than average at letting people walk all over me.

Wouldn't the picture I uploaded be a more accurate picture of sect by hemisphere? By the way, the "out of sect" planet is Jupiter.

MSO
12-30-2011, 04:11 PM
According to that, all of my planets are out of sect one way or another. That means that I'd have no planetary influences. Oh wait, Venus is just barely in the opposite hemisphere from the Sun, so never mind. I wouldn't say I'm very Venusian. I'm the only person I know who never gains weight on the holidays. I'm also not good at letting people walk all over me. I mean that I'm worse than average at letting people walk all over me.

Wouldn't the picture I uploaded be a more accurate picture of sect by hemisphere? By the way, the "out of sect" planet is Jupiter.

First, you grow into your chart. You're still very young, give it 5 or 6 more years and you'll start to realize just how much your chart says about you.

And no, it's not. It's pretty difficult for a planet to be in hayz, but there's not really anything special about it, at least from my point of view. My Moon is in hayz... it doesn't do any tricks :innocent:

Rebel Uranian
12-30-2011, 04:15 PM
I already see what my chart says about me. My Moon is basically mutilated, hence why I think "being a girl" is an insult. (By the way, a scorpion was once thought to be a mutilated crab. Hmm...) Venus is the closest thing to an obscure planet I have. Pluto is probably the most prominent. Yes, Pluto.

I think you misunderstood what I said in the second bit of my post about sect in hemispheres and you didn't click on the picture I uploaded.

dr. farr
12-31-2011, 02:04 AM
I agree with MSO's opinion about hayz; also, being merely out of sect does not = being powerless or without effect. Also, as I said earlier, I do not follow the oldtime concept of a planet being out of sect in its period being powerless (as if it were in a pitted degree)-I think that carried the sect idea way too far.
To me, being in sect indicates a + consideration for the given planet's efficacy of expression; and being out of sect indicates a - or somewhat inhibitory or restraining element regarding the given planet's efficacy of expression.

Rebel Uranian
12-31-2011, 02:10 AM
Again:

(atleast10characters)

dr. farr
12-31-2011, 03:12 AM
Where is the E/W horizon line in the drawing (ie, the asc/desc axis line)? (Perhaps I'm blind to it!)

Rebel Uranian
12-31-2011, 03:13 AM
It's a horizontal black line passing through my poorly-drawn Earth.

dr. farr
12-31-2011, 03:19 AM
Thanks (kind of thought that but wanted to be sure) So, this model seems to make the Sun the defining element of day half/night half, rather than the horizon. Am I correct in this or did you mean something else by the model you illustrated?

Rebel Uranian
12-31-2011, 03:20 AM
Yes, the Sun defines the day half/night half instead of the horizon. That's how it works in real life. That's probably ridiculous of me to mention...

dr. farr
12-31-2011, 03:37 AM
No its not ridiculous at all, and in my opinion it definitely could be a valid model, and in fact it IS more valid from the astrophysical point of view.

But from a symbolical point of view, the horizon is taken as the symbolic dividing line: what is "above the earth" is the "current period", and what is "below the earth" is opposite to what is "above the earth". If (as in your chart) the Sun is "below the earth" (even though its about twilight time), then what is "above the earth" is "night" and what is "below the earth" is "day"-but it is clear (to me at least) that this is symbolic, and that your illustrated model is the actual astrophysical state present.

Using the symbolic (ie traditional sect) model, therefore, in your chart Jupiter and Saturn are "in sect" (because they are in the "day" hemisphere of the chart), and Mars and Venus are also "in sect" (because they are in the "night" hemisphere of the chart), and the Moon is "out of sect" because it is in the "day" hemisphere of the chart.

Using your suggested model, (approximately) we would still have Jupiter and Saturn in sect (day half of model) but Venus would now be out of sect (because now it would be in the day half); Mars would remain in sect (night half of model) but now the Moon would also be in sect (now in the night half according to the model) So, using the model, the sect changes would only be 2: Venus would go out of sect and the Moon would go into sect.

Moog
12-31-2011, 03:06 PM
It's an interesting diagram.

I was reading this thread that sandstone linked too, which addresses some matters regarding sect and heliacal phase, maybe interesting?

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6483

If my understanding of this material is correct, then Sect is essentially reading the phase of planets in relation to the lights, and they to each other.

Rebel Uranian
12-31-2011, 04:40 PM
This has too many question marks. I've heard that makes people read it like I'm angry. Don't do that because I'm not. I'm just curious, really.

@dr. farr - So the most important of the types of sect is whether the planet is in the same hemisphere as the Sun or not? So that means that even though I have Saturn and Jupiter on a night chart, they're still in sect and have full influence because of hemisphere and according to ancient use of sect, they're not pitted? Does that mean that my Moon is significantly weakened? That makes a lot of sense. It's the only thing on the chart I don't relate to very much. I don't care if it's supposed to overshadow my Sun and Ascendant according to everyone. People in real life often complain that I'm cold and hard and unsympathetic and I "don't have a sentimental bone in my body." (quote.) Defunct Moon, yeah.

sandstone
12-31-2011, 05:33 PM
moog - planetary phase is an important part of it all, and from what i am learning p-phase plays directly into the basis for arriving at temperament as well..

rebel u - the first consideration is this

1 - is it a day or night chart? is the sun above or below the horizon? this defines whether it is a diurnal or nocturnal chart...

nocturnal planets - moon, venus, mars
diurnal planets - sun, jupiter, saturn
swings either way depending on phase and sect - mercury.

2 - planets above the horizon at night - venus, mars or moon would also be in sect on this basis as would the planets sun, jupiter, and saturn need to be under the horizon on a nocturnal chart.. the reverse applies for a diurnal chart.. as i understand it this is a 2ndy consideration. also bear in mind, different traditional systems had some variations to some of this, so it is not all cut and dry..

3 - air and fire - masculine
water and earth - feminine
typically the diurnal planets need to be with the masculine signs and vice versa for the nocturnal planets.. this is also a basis for whether the planet is in sect or not..

4 - planets oriental to the sun are considered more masculine and this suits certain planets more then others..

planets occidental to the sun - more feminine..

oriental and occidental are planetary phase relationships between the sun and the other planets...

on the basis of all this planetary strength is given a better understanding.. hopefully this covers the basics with a question mark remaining for other possible alterations to these considerations on the basis of different approaches to this traditional astro technique..

sandstone
12-31-2011, 05:38 PM
another important consideration... the relationship between the diurnal or nocturnal planets with one another is deemed very important...

for example - if a nocturnal chart one needs to look at the relationships between the moon, mars and venus in this chart to see whether they are supporting one another in a helpful manner... same deal in reverse for a diurnal chart..

Rebel Uranian
12-31-2011, 06:15 PM
dr. farr seems to imply that hemisphere is more important for planets being in or out of sect. The first quote is more relevant.

Remember that the Sun is always in sect, but more "potent" in a day chart


Using the symbolic (ie traditional sect) model, therefore, in your chart Jupiter and Saturn are "in sect" (because they are in the "day" hemisphere of the chart), and Mars and Venus are also "in sect" (because they are in the "night" hemisphere of the chart), and the Moon is "out of sect" because it is in the "day" hemisphere of the chart.

sandstone
12-31-2011, 06:18 PM
i will let dr farr comment on your first part...

on your 2nd quote - see 2 in my post above which is an example of this..

Rebel Uranian
12-31-2011, 06:27 PM
I read it. I know what sect is. It seems that the Moon and possibly Mercury are the only planets out of sect. Mercury is very masculine on my chart because it rises about as much before the Sun as it can, but it's also conjunct Venus.

Something I find weird is that the waxing Moon is masculine and the waning Moon is feminine. The waxing Moon is always occidental and occidental planets are usually more feminine.

Rebel Uranian
12-31-2011, 06:55 PM
- that's why hemisphere is more important as you noticed:smile:

(a) The Sun is always in Sect in a Day Chart
(b) The Moon is always in Sect in a Night Chart



If hemisphere is more important than chart sect and the Moon is below the horizon in a night chart, then the Moon would not be in sect. Am I getting confused?

Rebel Uranian
12-31-2011, 07:04 PM
So you're saying the condition of a chart being a day/night chart is more important? Hmm... Differing opinions, how unusual... [/sarcasm]

Rebel Uranian
12-31-2011, 07:21 PM
What if somenone has the Sun exactly on the Ascendant? Would their chart be neutral?

sandstone
12-31-2011, 07:49 PM
it might be dr. farr was referring to the sign position of your sun... by sign - your sun is in sect, but this is considered the 3rd consideration on sect... if a planet is in sect in all these different ways, they are considered very powerful.. i believe the word hayz is used to describe such a planet..

3 - air and fire - masculine
water and earth - feminine

Rebel Uranian
12-31-2011, 07:57 PM
From my understanding, dr. farr was referring to the fact that my Sun is in the same hemisphere as the Sun. When he said that "the Sun is always in sect," he means that the Sun is always in the same hemisphere as the Sun. The question I'm asking is whether the total day/night condition of the chart or the hemisphere relative to the Sun is the first or second consideration of sect. dr. farr seems to say that it's the first and JA seems to say that it's the second. dr. farr says that my Moon is the only planet out of sect on my chart and JA says that it's in sect.

sandstone
12-31-2011, 08:07 PM
well you have my list on the thread earlier that includes the numbers on it which reflects my understanding of the order of importance to arriving at the sect of the chart and planets.

Rebel Uranian
12-31-2011, 08:16 PM
Something I find weird is that the waxing Moon is masculine and the waning Moon is feminine. The waxing Moon is always occidental and occidental planets are usually more feminine.

(atleast10characters)

Rebel Uranian
12-31-2011, 08:50 PM
Our solar system has only one Sun. Your Sun can only be in the hemisphere in which it is located - after all, where else could it be? :smile:

When dr. farr said 'the Sun is always in sect' either he was speaking as dr. ANARCHY and using eclectic terminology OR he meant to convey that 'the sun is always in sect in a day/diurnal chart :smile:

...

And your Moon is a nocturnal planet that is in the upper hemisphere and away from your Aquarian Sun


No blue ellipsis for you. In fact, I'm going to make it red.

There is only one Sun so obviously it's always in the same hemisphere as itself. Since the Sun is a diurnal planet that is in sect in the same hemisphere as the Sun and the Sun is always in the same hemisphere in the Sun because it is the Sun itself, then therefore the Sun is always in sect by hemisphere. You can't argue with logic except with other kinds of logic that aren't relevant.

Also, no, my Moon is under the horizon with my Sun. It's in the 6th house in Placidus and equal. Go look again.

Rebel Uranian
12-31-2011, 09:06 PM
The Moon is below the horizon and out of sect. Mercury is above the horizon and out of sect. Venus is above the horizon and out of sect.

Edit: more later. g2g now

JUPITERASC
12-31-2011, 09:10 PM
Since Hellenistic astrologers use whole sign houses and clearly since you are using Placidus and Equal House, then the Hellenestic delineations I have previously provided cannot be illustrated correctly therefore I have transferred my posts to the "Hellenistic Delineation" thread in Traditional Astrology for those who are interested :smile:

sandstone
12-31-2011, 09:38 PM
here is a link to a really nice site that might help some better understand this issue of 'sect'.
http://www.zodiac-x-files.com/

JUPITERASC
12-31-2011, 09:51 PM
there is also more information on the concept of 'Sect' at the "Hellenistic Delineation" thread at http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43920

and a link to good site with article explaining "The Astrology of Sect" http://horoscopicastrologyblog.com/2008/11/25/the-astrology-of-sect/ :smile:

Rebel Uranian
01-01-2012, 02:52 AM
Since Hellenistic astrologers use whole sign houses and clearly since you are using Placidus and Equal House, then the Hellenestic delineations I have previously provided cannot be illustrated correctly therefore I have transferred my posts to the "Hellenistic Delineation" thread in Traditional Astrology for those who are interested :smile:

I can't use two house systems. I mentioned those house systems because they logically imply that the Moon is below the horizon, which you didn't seem to get via more direct methods. This thread is in "Traditional Astrology." I think you were a bit absent-minded to read that. I use whole signs since I'm too dumb to figure out how house rulership works in any other system. Did the Hellenists define the horizon as the sign cusp instead of the physical horizon?

JUPITERASC
01-01-2012, 08:14 AM
I can't use two house systems. I mentioned those house systems because they logically imply that the Moon is below the horizon, which you didn't seem to get via more direct methods. This thread is in "Traditional Astrology." I think you were a bit absent-minded to read that. I use whole signs since I'm too dumb to figure out how house rulership works in any other system. Did the Hellenists define the horizon as the sign cusp instead of the physical horizon?
When you mentioned the use of Placidus and Equal House I did think you were not using Hellenistic delineations - Placidus was not known at the time of Valens. Therefore, the thread clearly designated "Hellenistic Delineations" seemed a good place to transfer my comments to.

Regarding your Moon and whether your Moon is in Sect or out of Sect using Hellenistic rather than Medieval criteria:

IMO since your Sun is below the horizon then your chart is a Night Chart.

At Night the Moon is in Sect

Therefore your Moon is in Sect

If your Moon were also above the Horizon, then your Moon would have additional strength

But natally the Moon seems to be below the Horizon and the Sun seems to be below the Horizon also, therefore your Moon is apparently in the lower hemisphere along with your Sun.

Any nocturnal planets in the lower hemisphere in a nocturnal chart are still in sect but are considered slightly out of sect and more diurnal in nature (halb) :smile:

dr. farr gave some interesting historical detail at http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=348840#post348840
Not for Paulus (at least): Sun was always in sect but its "value" as such only "counted" if it were above the horizon in a day chart. In my understanding of the literature, the Moon is in sect only when in the night hemisphere of a given chart; if in a night chart the Moon is in the day hemisphere, then not only is the Moon out of sect but also is out of sect in its period, which authors like Paulus (and other later authors like Abu Mashar and Al-kindi) stated made the Moon "powerless" in such a situation.
my response to dr. farr's comment is as follows
Paulus understanding of the Sun and sect seems very similar and mostly in agreement with that of Valens dr. farr because if according to Paulus the "value" of the Sun is not "counted" unless the Sun is above the horizon in a day chart, then one might question the real difference

With reference to your comments of the moon, I earlier posted the following remarks :smile:
2.) In a nocturnal chart you'd want the nocturnal planets in the upper hemisphere away from the Sun (hayz).

Any nocturnal planets in the lower hemisphere in a nocturnal chart are still in sect but are considered slightly out of sect and more diurnal in nature (halb).