View Full Version : Pauline dodekatemorion contrasted with “By 12 technique” of Valens/Maternus et al

JUPITERASC

12-26-2011, 09:14 AM

dr. farr, I'm exploring the idea of dodeks so using the example of a planet located at 25º Libra am I correct in thinking that:

(a) the Pauline dodekatemorion is 25º Leo

(b) the “by 12” dodekatemorion is 25º Cancer :smile:

dr. farr

12-28-2011, 05:33 AM

Yes and No:andy:!

For a planet @ 25 Libra:

+Yes, by Pauline dodek (x13 factor) the dodek falls @ 25 Leo

+No, by Egyptian dodek (x12 factor) the dodek falls @ 0 Leo

JUPITERASC

12-28-2011, 12:17 PM

Yes and No:andy:!

For a planet @ 25 Libra:

+Yes, by Pauline dodek (x13 factor) the dodek falls @ 25 Leo

+No, by Egyptian dodek (x12 factor) the dodek falls @ 0 Leo

(a) Thank you for the yes dr. farr, that I understand :smile:

(b) however, why the no?

Thinks...

dr. farr, how is the Egyptian dodek of a planet at 25º Libra 0º Leo?

In the meantime, experimentally answering my own question, I speculate that an answer could possibly be as follows:

25º x 12 = 300º that's 10 Signs precisely

so then, counting forwards from Libra (including Libra) brings us to Cancer

I'm thinking then that you said 0º Leo because we must count an entire ten Signs and since it is an equal division, by the time we have counted to Cancer that has taken care of ten complete Signs - so that's the rationale of 0º Leo. That makes sense to me.

However, to check my thinking is correct let's take another example.

Given a planet located at 24º Libra, the Egyptian dodek would be:

24º x 12 = 288 that's nine Signs remainder 18º

counting as before forwards from Libra and including Libra, although this time nine Signs – brings us to Gemini.

However we have 18º left over

I'm thinking then that the Egyptian dodek for a planet at 24º Libra is therefore 18º Cancer

and the Pauline dodek for a planet at 24º Libra is therefore 12º Leo

makes sense dr. farr?:smile:

dr. farr

12-29-2011, 01:37 AM

100% Correct:biggrin:!

JUPITERASC

12-29-2011, 02:48 AM

100% Correct:biggrin:! Great - thanks for validating.

tsmall

09-03-2012, 02:01 AM

In Book I of Valen's Anthologies, chapter 4. (page 8 of the Riley pdf) he describes several methods for finding the ascendant. The first of these uses the dodekatemorion.

Having determined accurately the sun's degree position at the nativity, note where the dodekatemorion falls. The sign in trine to the left of this position will be the Ascendant, or the equilivalent sign (i.e. either masculine or feminine), providing you take into account the distinction between night and day births. For example: let the sun be in Aquarius 22*. The dodekatemorion of this point is in Scorpio...

dr. farr, you posted on another thread these two methods for finding the dodekatemorion:

Dodekatemorion is used (in natal, event and mundane charts) to see the additional ramifications of the "shadow" of the planet (or degree or Lot) in the chart; there are 2 types of dodek: Egypitan and Pauline:

-in Egyptian you multiply the degree and minutes of the planet (or Lot) by 12, then subtract 30 for every sign it crosses (starting with the sign the planet or Lot is in), and when you cannot subtract 30 anymore, that is where the dodek (shadow) falls

Example: what is the dodek of Saturn in 15Aries00?

Answer = 15 x 12 = 130; subtract 30 for every sign starting with Aries: so -Aries = 100 left; minus Taurus = 70 left; minus Gemini = 40 left; minus Cancer = 10 left; since you cannot subtract 30 from 10, the dodek of Saturn falls @ 10Leo.

-in Pauline, multiply by 13 and use the same type of subtraction by 30

Example: what is the Pauline dodek of Sun in 22Aquarius00?

Answer: 22 x 13 = 286; subtract 30 for every sign (starting with the sign the Sun is in) so that would be 9 signs (270) which leaves 16 as remainder; therefore the dodek of the Sun would fall @ 16Scorpio.

My understanding is that Valens would have been using the Egyptian method and not the Pauline method. Now, Valens in Book I does not state which he uses, nor does he describe how he got to Scorpio. Lastly he does not say at which degree of Scorpio (one of the reasons attempting his "adventures in finding the Ascendant" is, er, difficult.)

What is interesting about this paragraph is that if we do the math, 22x12=264, so 8 (30*) signs with 24* remaining. Counting from 0* Aquarius as you show above, we come to 0* Libra, with the dodek of 22* Aquarius being at 24* Libra. Well. That's not Scorpio. :pinched:

If we use the Pauline method then we have 22x13=286, or 9 (30*) signs with 16* remaining. Counting from 0* Aquarius that brings us to 16* Scorpio. hmmmm.

Either Valens was using the Pauline method, or...

Occam's razor?

Using the Egyptian (x12) method, if we start the count at 22* Aquarius, we count 8 signs to get to 22* Libra (240* from 22* Aquarius) then add 24* to bring us to....wait for it...16* Scorpio.

Could it be that we are meant to start the count from the exact degree of the planet whose dodek we are trying to determine? That would be the simplest answer.

dr. farr

09-03-2012, 07:28 AM

Obviously Valens, using the Egyptian method, began the count from the degree of the planet whose dodek was being determined, at least in the example cited; you will find some of this in other ancient authors (eg, Maximus), however the general doctrine from the ancients (who all use the Eguptian method EXCEPT for Paulus) was to start the count from the beginning of the sign in which the planet is posited.

My experience has been entirely with the Pauline dodek method, so I cannot testify as to the Egyptian dodek method's results...

JUPITERASC

09-03-2012, 06:42 PM

In Book I of Valen's Anthologies, chapter 4. (page 8 of the Riley pdf) he describes several methods for finding the ascendant. The first of these uses the dodekatemorion.

Quote:

Having determined accurately the sun's degree position at the nativity, note where the dodekatemorion falls. The sign in trine to the left of this position will be the Ascendant, or the equilivalent sign (i.e. either masculine or feminine), providing you take into account the distinction between night and day births. For example: let the sun be in Aquarius 22*. The dodekatemorion of this point is in Scorpio...

tsmall this is a most interesting ancient Rectification technique :smile:

tsmall

09-03-2012, 06:52 PM

tsmall this is a most interesting ancient Rectification technique :smile:

Well, it would be if the rest of the method didn't involve counting from months? celebrations? solstices? :unsure:

Find the number <of days> from Toth to the day of birth; multiply the hour/time <of birth> by 15 and add the result to the first number. For day births count from Virgo, giving 30 to each sign. For night births, count from Pisces.

Any one care to explain "Toth?" Or "Hadrian year 4, Mechir 13"?

JUPITERASC

09-03-2012, 11:11 PM

Well, it would be if the rest of the method didn't involve counting from months? celebrations? solstices? :unsure:

Any one care to explain "Toth?" Or "Hadrian year 4, Mechir 13"?

QUOTE:

Thout Coptic [tʰoːuːt], also known as Tout, is the first month of the Coptic calendar. It lies between 11 September and 10 October of the Gregorian calendar. The month of Thout is also the first month of the Season of Akhet (Inundation) in Ancient Egypt, when the Nile floods historically covered the land of Egypt; it has not done so since the construction of the High Dam at Aswan.

The name of the month comes from Thoth, the Ancient Egyptian God of Wisdom.

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thout

COPTIC CALENDAR INCLUDES THE MONTH OF THOUT AKA THOTH http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coptic_calendar:smile: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coptic_calendar)

JUPITERASC

09-03-2012, 11:54 PM

Well, it would be if the rest of the method didn't involve counting from months? celebrations? solstices? :unsure:

Any one care to explain "Toth?" Or "Hadrian year 4, Mechir 13"?

QUOTE:

Meshir, also known as Amshir, is the sixth month of the Coptic calendar. It lies between February 8 and March 9 of the Gregorian calendar. The month of Meshir is also the second month of the Season of 'Proyet' (Growth and Emergence) in ancient Egypt, where the Nile floods recede and the crops start to grow throughout the land of Egypt.

The name of the month of Meshir comes from Mechir, the Ancient Egyptian God genius of wind.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meshir

Hence Valens 'Mechir' is aka Coptic calendar month 'Meshir' :smile:

JUPITERASC

09-04-2012, 12:50 AM

Any one care to explain "Toth?" Or "Hadrian year 4, Mechir 13"?

Hadrian year 4 is a reference to the 4th year of the reign of the Roman Emperor Hadrian http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadrian :smile:

This is all very interesting!

My questions are:

What is the practical use of dodeks, what does it signify?

Are dodeks similar to antiscia, in a sense of being a shadow of the planet?

How would you interpret a dodek in relation to original placement of the planet? Lets say, similar to example stated above, Mercury ruler of 7th is at 25 Libra in 11th and the dodek falls at 25 Leo in 9th. How would you interpret that?

Can dodeks be used in horary as well, or just in natal and event astrology?

Multiplying by 12 seems logical. It looks more harmonious and geometrical. What is the logic behind multiplying by 13?

Can someone answer at least some of these questions? Thanks

dr. farr

11-23-2013, 03:02 AM

This is all very interesting!

My questions are:

What is the practical use of dodeks, what does it signify?

ANSWER: THEY SHOW A KIND OF HARMONIC THRUST OR RAMIFICATION OF THE PLANET (OR ASCENDANT OR LOT, ETC) THEY THUS SHOW THE ADDITIONAL COSMIC INFLUENCES OPERATIVE BY RAMIFICATION UPON THAT HOROSCOPIC ELEMENT

Are dodeks similar to antiscia, in a sense of being a shadow of the planet?

ANSWER: IN A WAY, YES-BUT I CONSIDER THEM MORE AS BEING HARMONIC RAMIFICATIONS

How would you interpret a dodek in relation to original placement of the planet? Lets say, similar to example stated above, Mercury ruler of 7th is at 25 Libra in 11th and the dodek falls at 25 Leo in 9th. How would you interpret that?

ANSWER: ALL OF THE ANCIENT AUTHORS INSTRUCTED THAT THE PLACE OF THE DODEK BE DELINEATED EXACTLY AS IF THE PLANET (OR OTHER POINT) WERE ACTUALLY THERE (AT THE DODEK PLACE) THIS DELINEATION WOULD BE ADDED TO WHATEVER THE DELINEATION OF THE PLANET IN ITS ORIGINAL PLACE WAS, AND THE COMBINATION (SYNTHESIS) OF THESE 2 DELINEATIONS WOULD BE THE COMPLETE ELABORATION OF THAT PLANET (OR OTHER POINT) IN THAT HOROSCOPE.

IN THE EXAMPLE GIVEN ABOVE, YOU WOULD FULLY DELINEATE MERCURY @ 25 LIBRA IN THE 11TH AND ALSO YOUR WOULD FULLY DELINEATE MERCURY @ 25 LEO IN THE 9TH-THOSE 2 DELINEATIONS TAKEN TOGETHER WOULD BE THE COMPLETE MERCURY DELINEATION IN THAT CHART.

Can dodeks be used in horary as well, or just in natal and event astrology?

ANSWER: I AM NOT AWARE THAT THIS HAS EVER BEEN DONE: DODEKS COMPLETELY DISAPPEARED FROM ASTROLOGICAL PRACTICE BY THE TIME OF THE BEGINNING OF THE ISLAMIC TRANSITIONAL ERA-SINCE HORARY APPEARS TO HAVE BEEN INTRODUCED TO THE WEST AROUND THE TIME OF THE BEGINNING OF THIS PERIOD, SO THE PIONEERS OF HORARY PROBABLY WERE NOT AWARE OF THE DODEK METHODOLOGY (VEDIC ASTROLOGY-WHICH PROBABLY ORIGNINATED HORARY AS WE HAVE COME TO KNOW IT, AROUND THE 6TH CENTURY AD, NEVER USED THE DODEK CONCEPT OR METHODOLOGY, PROBABLY BECAUSE OF THE EXTENSIVE USE OF VARGA-IE HARMONIC LIKE-CHARTS SINCE THE EARLIEST PERIODS OF VEDIC PRACTICE)

I MYSELF HAVE NEVER APPLIED DODEK TO HORARY-NEVER FELT THE NEED TO DO SO-HOWEVER, THEORETICALLY THERE IS NO REASON WHY DODEKS COULD NOT BE APPLIED TO HORARY (MIGHT BE AN INTERESTING EXPERIMENT)

Multiplying by 12 seems logical. It looks more harmonious and geometrical. What is the logic behind multiplying by 13?

ANSWER: ALL THE HELLENIST AUTHORS USED THE BY 12 DODEK-ONLY PAULUS USED THE BY 13-HE DID SO BECAUSE WITH THE BY 12 METHOD THE PLANET COULD NEVER BE "THRUST" FORWARD TO THE SAME PLACE AS THE ORIGINAL POSITION-WITH THE BY 13 METHOD THIS COULD BE A POSSIBILITY AND APPARENTLY PAULUS CONSIDERED THIS TO BE IMPORTANT (SEE FULL EXPLANATION IN GREENABUM'S "LATE CLASSICAL ASTROLOGY") i HAVE ONLY EXPERIMENTED WITH THE PAULINE DODEK (BY 13) AND I HAVE BEEN FULLY SATISFIED WITH THE RESULTS OBTAINED.

Can someone answer at least some of these questions? Thanks

Hope I have answered your questions!

Thank you dr. farr!

Very helpful and informative reply!

Where and which textbook/s should I consider to get for learning Dodekatemorion?

dr. farr

11-24-2013, 03:19 AM

Greenbaums "Late Classical Astrology", elucidating the doctrines of Paulus Alexandrianus (4th century AD) is a good one; the by 12 (Egyptian) dodek method is discussed in Valens. Suprisingly, almost no Traditionalists (except Robert Hand) and very few neo-Hellenists, have made much application of the dodek technique (whether the by 12 or by 13 method) Authors like Greenbaum (c2000) thought that once this technique had been translated into English, many would begin experimenting with it in practical delineation-however, this did not happen over the past 13 years and dodeks remain a largely unused ancient technique...

JUPITERASC

11-24-2013, 09:19 AM

Where and which textbook/s should I consider to get for learning Dodekatemorion?

LATE CLASSICAL ASTROLOGY

PAULUS ALEXANDRINUS AND OLYMPIODORUS :smile:

TRANSLATED BY DORIAN GREENBAUM - ARHAT

http://www.astroclassic.org/text-trad/PO%20a.pdf 93 pages and free to download/print out

Greenbaums "Late Classical Astrology", elucidating the doctrines of Paulus Alexandrianus (4th century AD) is a good one;

the by 12 (Egyptian) dodek method is discussed in Valens.

VETTIUS VALENS entire ANTHOLOGY translated from the original ancient Greek by Professor Riley and made freely available online to read/download/print out from http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/Vettius%20Valens%20entire.pdf

Suprisingly, almost no Traditionalists (except Robert Hand) and very few neo-Hellenists, have made much application of the dodek technique (whether the by 12 or by 13 method)

Authors like Greenbaum (c2000) thought that once this technique had been translated into English, many would begin experimenting with it in practical delineation-however, this did not happen over the past 13 years and dodeks remain a largely unused ancient technique...

Free software program Morinus has a feature that calculates the dodekatemorion

Astrologer Rumen Kolev's software provides the location of the dodekatemorion of each planet, the nodes, the Part of Fortune, Ascendant, MC and so on and so forth http://www.babylonianastrology.com/index.php?page=shop.browse&category_id=1&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=1

Konrad

11-26-2013, 12:23 PM

It seems to me that dodekatemoria are fractals of space, just as Primary Directions and profections are fractals of time.

dr. farr

11-27-2013, 03:12 AM

It seems to me that dodekatemoria are fractals of space, just as Primary Directions and profections are fractals of time.

Very thought-provoking observation; thanks:biggrin:!

LATE CLASSICAL ASTROLOGY

PAULUS ALEXANDRINUS AND OLYMPIODORUS :smile:

TRANSLATED BY DORIAN GREENBAUM - ARHAT

http://www.astroclassic.org/text-trad/PO%20a.pdf 93 pages and free to download/print out

VETTIUS VALENS entire ANTHOLOGY translated from the original ancient Greek by Professor Riley and made freely available online to read/download/print out from http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/Vettius%20Valens%20entire.pdf

Free software program Morinus has a feature that calculates the dodekatemorion

Astrologer Rumen Kolev's software provides the location of the dodekatemorion of each planet, the nodes, the Part of Fortune, Ascendant, MC and so on and so forth http://www.babylonianastrology.com/index.php?page=shop.browse&category_id=1&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=1

Where I can find it in morinus

JUPITERASC

12-24-2013, 03:01 PM

Where I can find it in morinus

Download Morinus Traditional version :smile:

Download Morinus Traditional version :smile:

thankx :kissing:

JUPITERASC

12-24-2013, 03:05 PM

thankx :kissing:

That's ok

by the way

for anyone needing a link

Traditional Morinus :smile: Modified 13 December 2013

This software is the traditional version of the modern Morinus https://sites.google.com/site/tradmorinus/morinus

That's ok

by the way

for anyone needing a link

Traditional Morinus :smile: Modified 13 December 2013

This software is the traditional version of the modern Morinus https://sites.google.com/site/tradmorinus/morinus

Oky I found it thanks

noblehorse

01-28-2014, 05:34 PM

When you apply Pauline dodekatemoria to the 3 degrees before and after the Cardinal points (the Cardinal point ingress and egress regions covering a 7 degree range) you end up with Pauline dodekatemoria degrees that correspond exactly to the modern Critical Degrees - 21 Fixed, 4 and 17 Mutable, 0, 13 and 26 Cardinal, and 9 Fixed. So through Pauline dodekatemoria these modern Critical degrees are expressions of phasic or Cardinal ingress/egress degrees.

I'm exploring the idea that Pauline dodekatemoria - being based on 13 - carry a Lunar influence or perspective or etc... leaving the Egyptian dodekatemoria to feature a Solar influence as they are of course based on 12...

noblehorse

tsmall

01-28-2014, 10:50 PM

When you apply Pauline dodekatemoria to the 3 degrees before and after the Cardinal points (the Cardinal point ingress and egress regions covering a 7 degree range) you end up with Pauline dodekatemoria degrees that correspond exactly to the modern Critical Degrees - 21 Fixed, 4 and 17 Mutable, 0, 13 and 26 Cardinal, and 9 Fixed. So through Pauline dodekatemoria these modern Critical degrees are expressions of phasic or Cardinal ingress/egress degrees.

I'm exploring the idea that Pauline dodekatemoria - being based on 13 - carry a Lunar influence or perspective or etc... leaving the Egyptian dodekatemoria to feature a Solar influence as they are of course based on 12...

noblehorse

Do you have a picture? Of the cardinal points I mean, that would illustrate the degrees? I'd be most interested in seeing one, and if not perhaps will try to draw after some sleep.

If I may ask, how did you arrive at Pauline based on 13 for the Moon and Egyptian based on 12 for the Sun? As in what influences then do you think they will have in chart reading/prediction? Already I'm seeing shades of the differences to be found between the Lots of Fortune and Spirit, and even wondering if your experiments might change the way we calculate profections based on the sect light of the natal....

hmmmm. Very intriguing ideas.

JUPITERASC

01-29-2014, 01:32 AM

When you apply Pauline dodekatemoria to the 3 degrees before and after the Cardinal points (the Cardinal point ingress and egress regions covering a 7 degree range) you end up with Pauline dodekatemoria degrees that correspond exactly to the modern Critical Degrees - 21 Fixed, 4 and 17 Mutable, 0, 13 and 26 Cardinal, and 9 Fixed. So through Pauline dodekatemoria these modern Critical degrees are expressions of phasic or Cardinal ingress/egress degrees.

I'm exploring the idea that Pauline dodekatemoria - being based on 13 - carry a Lunar influence or perspective or etc...

The solar year = 365 days 5 hours 48 minutes 46 seconds

or

365.242199 days.

365 days of a Solar Year

when divided by a 28 day Moon Cycle = 13 remainder 1

leaving the Egyptian dodekatemoria to feature a Solar influence as they are of course based on 12...

365 days of an Egyptian Solar Year = 12 Egyptian Solar Calendar Months of 30 days each

QUOTE

'….Ancient Egyptians are credited with the first 12 month calendar

each consisting of 30 days.

They added 5 days at the end of the year

and abandoned trying to sync with lunar cycles

and concentrated instead on aligning with the solar year.

The Egyptians recognized that this calendar didn't quite align with a actual year.

They called the 1461 Egyptian years it took to re-align with the 1460 solar years

a Sothis Period.

Eventually, the Greek rulers of Egypt under Ptolemy

added the concept of a leap year,

adding a day every 4 years.

The Romans reinforced this concept when they later ruled Egypt.....' http://www.calendar-origins.com/egyptian-cale (http://www.calendar-origins.com/egyptian-calendar.html)

Do you have a picture? Of the cardinal points I mean, that would illustrate the degrees? I'd be most interested in seeing one, and if not perhaps will try to draw after some sleep.

If I may ask, how did you arrive at Pauline based on 13 for the Moon and Egyptian based on 12 for the Sun? As in what influences then do you think they will have in chart reading/prediction? Already I'm seeing shades of the differences to be found between the Lots of Fortune and Spirit, and even wondering if your experiments might change the way we calculate profections based on the sect light of the natal....

hmmmm. Very intriguing ideas.

Changing the way we calculate profections

based on the sect light of the natal

is certainly an intriguing idea

although it is possible that dr. farr has an example historical precedent :smile:

dr. farr

01-29-2014, 03:58 AM

The use of x13 for calculating dodeks is described by Olympiodorus as extracted from Paulus Alexanderianus: the reasoning for changing from x12 (the Egyptian method used by most of the extant Hellenist authors) to x13, is explained there in the relevant chapter in Greenbaum's "Late Classical Astroloogy".

Historically, I (myself) am not aware of any examples of bringing sect light into play as a modifying method of profecting; interesting theory though, and certainly worthy of experimental investigation.

noblehorse

01-29-2014, 04:34 PM

Here's a Pauline dodekatemoria spreadsheet image, with relevant degrees highlighted in yellow...

I apologize for the resolution... I'm hoping it's readable...

noblehorse

01-29-2014, 04:36 PM

And don't get me started on the Lots of Fortune and Spirit... :smile:

tsmall

01-30-2014, 01:36 AM

Here's a Pauline dodekatemoria spreadsheet image, with relevant degrees highlighted in yellow...

I apologize for the resolution... I'm hoping it's readable...

The print is really tiny.

First, I have a question. This is yours, yes?

http://www.azastrologers.org/Articles/NoblehorseBoundsPart1.pdf

the Cardinal point ingress and egress regions covering a 7 degree range

This is what I was hoping for a picture of. I am still learning tons, and am trying to for an image in my mind of what you are describing. The logic of the idea that the critical degrees have their origins in something earlier is sound, as is the thought that the critical degrees could or would correspond to lunar influence. With the Moon being receiving vs. emitting, and that the Moon is so subject to and representative of change, a lunar influence in those places makes sense.

And don't get me started on the Lots of Fortune and Spirit...

Pulls up a chair, a note book and popcorn. I would love to get you started about Lots of Fortune and Spirit. :smile:

Historically, I (myself) am not aware of any examples of bringing sect light into play as a modifying method of profecting; interesting theory though, and certainly worthy of experimental investigation.

One reason I had for this thought is that it seems as though some charts respond, or realize better with both primary directions and ZR when we only look at directions to and releasing of those two lots. The idea that there are two ways to calculate dodekatemoria, two ways to count profections (by 12 and by 13) combined with the solar and lunar, which then lead to Spirt and Fortune were why I made the connection.

noblehorse

01-30-2014, 06:52 PM

Okay, here's a larger view of the spreadsheet. The spreadsheet calculates Egyptian dodektemoria as well... if anyone wants a copy (Excel) I can email it to them...

noblehorse

01-30-2014, 06:59 PM

Yes, that one is mine - written long, long ago in a galaxy far, far away...

First, I have a question. This is yours, yes?

http://www.azastrologers.org/Articles/NoblehorseBoundsPart1.pdf

noblehorse

01-30-2014, 07:01 PM

That would have to go in its own thread...

Which I started here:

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=72006

Pulls up a chair, a note book and popcorn. I would love to get you started about Lots of Fortune and Spirit. :smile:

tsmall

01-30-2014, 08:27 PM

Yes, that one is mine - written long, long ago in a galaxy far, far away...

:smile: Welcome to AW. We have a galaxy all our own here.

Larxene

02-24-2014, 08:53 AM

When calculating the dodek, here's a good general rule to keep in mind:

If you have to count n exact signs, the degree will be found in the n+1 sign.

Example 1:

Mars in Aries 2.5 degrees.

2.5 x 12 = 30

30 degrees is 1 exact sign.

So, Mars (dodek) is found in the 2nd sign from Aries, 0 degree Taurus.

Example 2:

Mars in Aries 22.5 degrees.

22.5 x 12 = 270

270 is 9 exact signs.

So, Mars (dodek) is found in the 10th sign from Aries, 0 degree Capricorn.

This result can be applied even when the multiplication does not give an equal number of signs.

Example 3:

Mars in Aries 3 degrees.

3 x 12 = 36

36 is 1 sign + 6 degrees

So, Mars (dodek) is found in the 2nd sign from Aries + 6 degrees, 6 degrees Taurus.

Example 4:

Mars in Aries 14 degrees.

14 x 12 = 168

168 is 5 signs + 18 degrees

So, Mars (dodek) is found in the 6th sign from Aries + 18 degrees, 18 degrees Virgo.

Another (advanced) tip concerns large degrees. When you have to count more than 7 exact signs, it is sometimes easier to count in the opposite direction instead.

Following Jupiter's last example, he had to count 288 degrees from 0 degrees Libra. Instead of counting the conventional way following the zodiacal motion, it is easier to count in diurnal motion.

This is how we go about it:

1 circle = 360 degrees

360 - 288 = (300 - 288) + 60 = 12 + 60 = 72

72 is 2 signs + 12 degrees.

Counting two 2 signs in diurnal motion, we end up in 30 degrees Cancer.

Now, subtract 12 from 30, we get 18 degrees Cancer.

I have Solargold fire that can calculate the 12 dodek,but doesn't calculate the 13th dodek.

JUPITERASC

01-13-2016, 10:07 PM

CLARIFICATION

FIRMICUS

(probably afflicted by misunderstanding)

projects result of calculation from beginning of sign in which planet is positioned,

so

(starting count of 120° from 0° Taurus)

dodekatemorion of 10° Taurus would be 10° Virgo.

PAULUS

projects result of calculation from position of planet,

so

(starting count of 120° from 10° Taurus)

dodekatemorion of 10° Taurus is 20° Virgo

- another way to get same result (which is how Paulus describes it)

is multiply degree position by 13 instead of 12 :smile:

and then

start count from beginning of sign

- multiplication by 13 simply accommodates that count includes position of planet. http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/dodekatemorion.html

JUPITERASC

01-13-2016, 10:08 PM

Commentators often describe these two variants

as being distinguished by multiplication of 12 or 13

but this misses the fundamental point:

the symbolism is always determined by the act of multiplying by 12,

what appears to be confused according to these alternate accounts,

is where the count ought to begin.

It only makes sense to project the result of the calculation from the point being progressed,

so Paulus leads us to the correct result,

though by making reference to multiplication by 13,

Paulus obscures the reason why this is correct

- because it adds the result of the 12-fold multiplication to the position of the planet.

Paulus gives example of 11° Aries:

the multiplication of 11° by 12 = 132°,

adding these degrees to 11° Aries obtains the result Paulus describes: 23° Leo http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/dodekatemorion.html

Calculations of dodekatemoira are facilitated by reference to a

table that converts zodiacal longitude into absolute longitude, such as the one at Skyscript: www.skyscript.co.uk/ablong.html (http://www.skyscript.co.uk/ablong.html)

Some of Francesca Rochberg's comments on the Babylonian use of dodekatemoira (https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=vYluiWFPsjMC&lpg=PA157&dq=dodekatemoria%20in%20babylonian%20astrology&pg=PA156#v=onepage&q&f=false) are available for preview

on Google books (see pages 156-160 of her book, In the Path of the Moon: Babylonian Celestial Divination and Its Legacy).

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