Rebel Uranian
Well-known member
This was on another thread a bit. It didn't continue there so I'm going to continue it here.
Temperament
- Thread starter Rebel Uranian
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Rebel Uranian
Well-known member
Yes. Stuff like that.
Rebel Uranian
Well-known member
That's the purpose of this thread.
A highly accurate (historically and methodologically) and very useful, fully elaborated work on the subject of temperament is Greenabum's "Temperament: Astrology's Forgotten Key" (easily available from several internet sources) This book is not merely some reprinting of old-time literature: the author TESTS the various methods of "determining temperament" (the test subjects being Waldorff school children) and comes up with a synthesis of these methods which yields the most accurate results (eclecticism again
!) If you (or any of our AW friends) are really interested in gaining insight (for practical applications) regarding this subject of temperament, the best advice I can offer is to first obtain and make a study of the Greenbaum book.
!) If you (or any of our AW friends) are really interested in gaining insight (for practical applications) regarding this subject of temperament, the best advice I can offer is to first obtain and make a study of the Greenbaum book.
MSO
Well-known member
A highly accurate (historically and methodologically) and very useful, fully elaborated work on the subject of temperament is Greenabum's "Temperament: Astrology's Forgotten Key" (easily available from several internet sources) This book is not merely some reprinting of old-time literature: the author TESTS the various methods of "determining temperament" (the test subjects being Waldorff school children) and comes up with a synthesis of these methods which yields the most accurate results (eclecticism again
Does it differ a lot from Lilly's approach? I know you really don't like Lilly much, but I've had success with it... not that I've used it extensively or anything.
It includes elements from Lilly but also much more: one thing, if you have what you feel is good results (your results are satisfying) then STICK WITH WHAT YOU ARE DOING! Don't "fix" what you are doing when it is coming out with good results!!
You get good results with a particular approach or method, don't consider changing it UNLESS you really don't feel that you are getting as good results as you could be getting. This goes for all techniques and approaches!
But, if you are somewhat "iffy", then see what the Greenbaum book might offer: maybe you'll say "hey forgetaboutit", but perhaps you will find a gem or two in it which might give you even better results with what you do relative to "temperament" analysis!
You get good results with a particular approach or method, don't consider changing it UNLESS you really don't feel that you are getting as good results as you could be getting. This goes for all techniques and approaches!
But, if you are somewhat "iffy", then see what the Greenbaum book might offer: maybe you'll say "hey forgetaboutit", but perhaps you will find a gem or two in it which might give you even better results with what you do relative to "temperament" analysis!
MSO
Well-known member
Well Lilly is always very vague. It's not that I don't like the method, I very much do. But shooting the side of a building with a cannon is different from shooting the wings off a fly with a BB gun.
i will 3rd the comments from dr. farr, as i also have read and enjoyed greenbaum's book on temperament too.. great book!
solar fire program has a system on it for arriving at temperament.. it appears to use lillys system which might not be as in depth as greenbaums.. i am not entirely clear on what the distinctions are between them..
from the solar fire promo page down towards the bottom of the link:
Solar Fire Gold also contains a Temperament tabulation. This Temperament tabulation can be done for any chart. and contains the four temperaments weighted according to Lilly – Choleric, Sanguine, Melancholic, Phlegmatic.
http://alabe.com/solargold.html
i think a study on the elements is directly connected to this topic of temperament.. it was a few years ago that i read greenbaums book, but the idea of temperament is a very old one.. greenbaum as i recall goes into the different methods of assessing temperament according to an astro chart.. i think the weighing is very similar to lillys.. however, g-baum seems very open to the idea that there can be mixed types where it is not so easily defined as i recall..
according to the solar fire software i have the 4 factors in use for the program are -
sign of ascendant
ruler of ascendant
sign of moon
phase of moon
i am defined as phlegmatic.. after reading g-baums book i seem to recall a slightly different conclusion using her methodology...
in looking at the book right now i see g-baum includes a few other factors, such as birth season - which would put some emphasis on sun position, the ascendant almuten and the ruler of the moon.. 3 more factors basically.. g-baum also gives some of these factors a higher score of 2, as opposed to 1, such as season of birth, ascendant sign and moon sign..
after reading the book i seem to recall identifying with choleric/phlegmatic, but i can't recall if i got this from the score off the data, so much off reading the temperament descriptions offered in the book..
at any rate, the issue of temperament is a really good one worth studying.. i have often based quick conclusions on this off element balance in a chart, but the system of lillys and greenbaums seem to factor certain parts of the chart more strongly then others for giving a score to indicate a more likely temperament..
in my case, moon and ascendant sign scorpio, with ruler mars in capricorn suggest phlegmatic, but sun sign with emphasis on fire in my chart gives the choleric.. i wouldn't get this just using lillys methodology, but i don't have a complete picture of just what his methodology for arriving at temperament was...
solar fire program has a system on it for arriving at temperament.. it appears to use lillys system which might not be as in depth as greenbaums.. i am not entirely clear on what the distinctions are between them..
from the solar fire promo page down towards the bottom of the link:
Solar Fire Gold also contains a Temperament tabulation. This Temperament tabulation can be done for any chart. and contains the four temperaments weighted according to Lilly – Choleric, Sanguine, Melancholic, Phlegmatic.
http://alabe.com/solargold.html
i think a study on the elements is directly connected to this topic of temperament.. it was a few years ago that i read greenbaums book, but the idea of temperament is a very old one.. greenbaum as i recall goes into the different methods of assessing temperament according to an astro chart.. i think the weighing is very similar to lillys.. however, g-baum seems very open to the idea that there can be mixed types where it is not so easily defined as i recall..
according to the solar fire software i have the 4 factors in use for the program are -
sign of ascendant
ruler of ascendant
sign of moon
phase of moon
i am defined as phlegmatic.. after reading g-baums book i seem to recall a slightly different conclusion using her methodology...
in looking at the book right now i see g-baum includes a few other factors, such as birth season - which would put some emphasis on sun position, the ascendant almuten and the ruler of the moon.. 3 more factors basically.. g-baum also gives some of these factors a higher score of 2, as opposed to 1, such as season of birth, ascendant sign and moon sign..
after reading the book i seem to recall identifying with choleric/phlegmatic, but i can't recall if i got this from the score off the data, so much off reading the temperament descriptions offered in the book..
at any rate, the issue of temperament is a really good one worth studying.. i have often based quick conclusions on this off element balance in a chart, but the system of lillys and greenbaums seem to factor certain parts of the chart more strongly then others for giving a score to indicate a more likely temperament..
in my case, moon and ascendant sign scorpio, with ruler mars in capricorn suggest phlegmatic, but sun sign with emphasis on fire in my chart gives the choleric.. i wouldn't get this just using lillys methodology, but i don't have a complete picture of just what his methodology for arriving at temperament was...
Rebel Uranian
Well-known member
Is this true:
Choleric: Hot and dry
Melancholic: Cold and dry
Sanguine: Hot and wet
Phlegmatic: Cold and wet
According to sandstone/solar fire method:
Asc sign: capricorn - melancholic (cold and dry)
Ruler: saturn in aries - chloric (hot and dry)
Moon sign: cancer - phlegmatic (cold and wet)
Moon phase: waxing gibbous - sanguine (hot and wet?)
In balance you go with moderately sanguine, right? Also, the season of birth was "cold and wet" or phlegmatic (Aquarius, along with Capricorn and Pisces, is a cold and wet Sun since the Sun, being hot and dry, is at home in the hot and dry season and in detriment in the cold and wet season) but I'd say I'm anything but phlegmatic and I'm probably either sanguine or melancholic.
I want to go get this book because it sounds cool and useful, but I probably didn't need to explain why.
Choleric: Hot and dry
Melancholic: Cold and dry
Sanguine: Hot and wet
Phlegmatic: Cold and wet
According to sandstone/solar fire method:
Asc sign: capricorn - melancholic (cold and dry)
Ruler: saturn in aries - chloric (hot and dry)
Moon sign: cancer - phlegmatic (cold and wet)
Moon phase: waxing gibbous - sanguine (hot and wet?)
In balance you go with moderately sanguine, right? Also, the season of birth was "cold and wet" or phlegmatic (Aquarius, along with Capricorn and Pisces, is a cold and wet Sun since the Sun, being hot and dry, is at home in the hot and dry season and in detriment in the cold and wet season) but I'd say I'm anything but phlegmatic and I'm probably either sanguine or melancholic.
I want to go get this book because it sounds cool and useful, but I probably didn't need to explain why.
rebel u, i think that is basically it.. you have the gibbous moon slightly out.. it is hot and dry, not hot and wet...
if the data you have for your chart is relatively accurate the solar fire program which is based off lillys system gives your temperament as hot and dry.. here is the breakdown via the program..
sign of asc - cap - cold and dry
ruler of asc - aries - hot and dry
sign of moon - cancer - wet and cold
phase of moon - gibbous - hot and dry
final score - hot 2, wet 1, cold 2, dry 3.
conclusion via the program
choleric - hot and dry.
as you can see the cold part got the shaft, lol..
let me know if this helps any... perhaps you might feel the cold part is under-weighed... i think if you factor in season, this would add to the cold feature.. the almuten would likely put more emphasis on the moon traits and of course the ruler of the moon would continue to put more focus on your moon! this would be g-baums breakdown giving you perhaps a wetter and colder emphasis then you will get off the lilly breakdown.. this might push you towards a phlegmatic temperament more, perhaps a choleric/phlegmatic like i envision myself... hard to say and i think it would be helpful for you to pick up g-baums book!
if the data you have for your chart is relatively accurate the solar fire program which is based off lillys system gives your temperament as hot and dry.. here is the breakdown via the program..
sign of asc - cap - cold and dry
ruler of asc - aries - hot and dry
sign of moon - cancer - wet and cold
phase of moon - gibbous - hot and dry
final score - hot 2, wet 1, cold 2, dry 3.
conclusion via the program
choleric - hot and dry.
as you can see the cold part got the shaft, lol..
let me know if this helps any... perhaps you might feel the cold part is under-weighed... i think if you factor in season, this would add to the cold feature.. the almuten would likely put more emphasis on the moon traits and of course the ruler of the moon would continue to put more focus on your moon! this would be g-baums breakdown giving you perhaps a wetter and colder emphasis then you will get off the lilly breakdown.. this might push you towards a phlegmatic temperament more, perhaps a choleric/phlegmatic like i envision myself... hard to say and i think it would be helpful for you to pick up g-baums book!
Also remember that it is rare for a given individual to be one pure temperament: usually there is a predominant temperament PLUS a secondary quality mixed with it in almost all people (we find mixed temperaments/elements also in herbal medicinal agents and even in gems and stones; see my postings to the "Temperament" thread on skyscript in the Traditional Astrology forum for early 2010; also my listing of temperament/element affinities of many herbal medicines which I posted in the Traditional Astrology forum on skyscript before being banned from the site in April of that year)
hi dr. farr,
perhaps this is the skyscript thread you reference?
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3811&highlight=temperament
you have my curiosity over the reason for your being banned from skyscript, if you feel like sharing the story..
perhaps this is the skyscript thread you reference?
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3811&highlight=temperament
you have my curiosity over the reason for your being banned from skyscript, if you feel like sharing the story..
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
Link to dr. farr's skyscript thread "Introduction to the Table of Herbal Temperaments" http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4956&highlight=
