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Kaiousei no Senshi
04-07-2012, 01:26 PM
From what I can tell, the Babylonians' astrology was very primitive. I may be wrong, I'm just going by a pretty faint memory of what I've read right now (it's 5a.m. and I've been up since 10am yesterday), but the only thing I can say came from Babylonian astrology is the decanates. I don't think they really even used signs, I remember reading they basically clocked the motion of the Moon and some stars that moved quite frequently, and how they relate to the Moon's movements. They used a system of coordinates based on approximate 10 degree sections, leading to the decanates we use today, instead of "signs."


I may be wrong too, but I was under the impression that the decanates were Egyptian in origin. The Bablyonians used a zodiac, but they didn't use our solar zodiac for the longest time. Instead they used an 18 sign...I guess we'll call it lunar zodiac and we know they did identify constellations and star groupings around 2000 BCE. The Enuma An Enlil has shown us many of the omens that they considered (though none come to my mind right now), but their rudimentary knowledge of astronomy made the kind of astrology we do today much too technical for them at the time. They weren't really able to predict things very far in advance.

byjove
04-07-2012, 02:56 PM
That's very inspiring tsmall...I feel encouraged to do the same. I really think that that would allow for easier referencing than ebooks.

waybread
04-07-2012, 03:57 PM
tsmall, the photo was a bit dark from my end, but gosh!-- is that a live 50 lb. porocupine? Even if it's taxidermed, I hope you don't brush against it accidentally while studying Vettius Valens at your desk. Do they actually eat people? Or just skewer them occasionally?

Here is what Ritchie Valens, descendant of Vettius Valens, wrote in a recently discovered notebook shortly before his death (with Buddy Holly and The Big Bopper) on that fateful plane crash in 1959 (which could be accurately predicted by computing the hyleg, almuten, alcocoden, and Arabic part of plane crashes):

"Mars in conjunction Saturn and Nibiru, setting under the rays of the sun in a bicorporeal sign, causes the native to embrace giant African procupines, leading to death from bleeding through a thousand tiny lacerations. If Jupiter is in aspect, he will surive; but if not, wild dogs will finish him off." http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif

JUPITERASC
04-07-2012, 08:29 PM
I may be wrong too, but I was under the impression that the decanates were Egyptian in origin. The Bablyonians used a zodiac, but they didn't use our solar zodiac for the longest time. Instead they used an 18 sign...I guess we'll call it lunar zodiac and we know they did identify constellations and star groupings around 2000 BCE. The Enuma An Enlil has shown us many of the omens that they considered (though none come to my mind right now), but their rudimentary knowledge of astronomy made the kind of astrology we do today much too technical for them at the time. They weren't really able to predict things very far in advance.
Rumen Kolev is one of the few living practitioners of Babylonian Astrology here's a link to his website "Babylonian Astrosophy" http://www.babylonianastrology.com/:smile:
waybread, this one's for you. Hope you appreciate it, lol.

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5038/6906361232_f8e2fdd606_m.jpg

Who says modern people can't potentially be consumed by wild beasts? In case you can't quite read it (the image is small) that binder is my sheet protected copy of Valens' Anthologies....:joyful:

btw, yes, that is a 50 lb African crested porcupine under my desk.
Interesting... medieval astrologers associate Virgo with small animals and gardening :smile:

waybread
04-07-2012, 08:44 PM
A bristly 50-pound procupine with all its quills stuck out is not my idea of a small animal! Sagittarius seems more allied with exotic pets....

tsmall, assuming that this critter is alive and has the run of the house, how exactly do you entice it out from under your desk? Deocoying it with hair brushes or pin cushions? What does it eat? Is it paper-trained or does it use a litter box?

JUPITERASC
04-07-2012, 08:59 PM
A bristly 50-pound procupine with all its quills stuck out is not my idea of a small animal! Sagittarius seems more allied with exotic pets....
"It's all relative IMO" Einstein commented while visiting a zoo.

Relative to an elephant, a bear, a giraffe, a lion, a tiger, a gorilla, a hippopotamus, a crocodile... a 50lb crested African Porcupine is a small animal associated with Virgo and small animals

Furthermore, "exotic" is relative to locale :smile:

waybread
04-07-2012, 09:17 PM
Quite right. "Exotic" relative to New Hampshire.:smile:

Kaiousei no Senshi
04-07-2012, 09:39 PM
Interesting... medieval astrologers associate Virgo with small animals and gardening

A bristly 50-pound procupine with all its quills stuck out is not my idea of a small animal!

It has to be big enough for a full grown man to ride to be considered a large animal. Though, I can't think of anyone who would want to try that out...

JUPITERASC
04-07-2012, 09:52 PM
It has to be big enough for a full grown man to ride to be considered a large animal. Though, I can't think of anyone who would want to try that out...
Unnecessary IMO to try that out Kaiousei no Senshi because obviously according to your useful definition, a 50lb African crested porcupine is clearly a small animal and associated with Virgo.

Relative to being located in a zoo in New Hampshire,a 50lb African crested porcupine is not exotic either :smile:

waybread
04-07-2012, 11:19 PM
Sort of like those ads for Preparation H-- ruled by Virgo (health) and Scorpio for......

Dictionary Def. of exotic: "Belonging by nature or origin to another part of the world, not native, foreign; an exotic plant. 2. Strangely different and faxcinating...from the Greek exotikos "foreign."

Kaiousei no Senshi
04-07-2012, 11:42 PM
Unnecessary IMO to try that out Kaiousei no Senshi because obviously according to your useful definition, a 50lb African crested porcupine is clearly a small animal and associated with Virgo.


Yes, that was part of the joke.

JUPITERASC
04-07-2012, 11:50 PM
Yes, that was part of the joke.
Thanks for explaining that! Regarding 'exotic' animals, due to the importation of animals from all areas of the planet, in the 21st century, most animals can be found almost anywhere in the world - often as pets, sometimes the pets escape and establish themselves "in the wild" in their new country and interbreed. Also there are hundreds of zoos... not to mention numerous exhibitions for public entertainment such as Aquariums :smile:

waybread
04-07-2012, 11:59 PM
Biologists call them exotic animals. You kind of have to look at where the species originated. "Native" is distinct from "exotic" or imported animals that are "captive bred", &c.

Speaking of dry senses of humour, JA-- maybe yours is even drier than mine. I don't believe this "debate" is serious. Do you?

tsmall is the authority!

JUPITERASC
04-08-2012, 12:07 AM
IMO a zoo comprising small animals is Virgoan... small animals as defined by Kaiousei no Senshi's useful post :smile:
It has to be big enough for a full grown man to ride to be considered a large animal. Though, I can't think of anyone who would want to try that out...

tsmall
04-08-2012, 12:43 AM
You guys (and gals) are cracking me up. :w00t:

Ok, a few answers to a few questions...

byjove, I am hoping you were referring to my idea of printing Valens and encasing it in sheet protectors in a binder, and not the inspiration of having a porcupine under one's desk to "prod" learning?

waybread, yes it is alive, no it doesn't have free run of the house. We do have pets (two cats and a dog) but this indeed exotic animal has both an indoor and outdoor enclosure (along with his companion.) As our zoo is not open to the public, it travels exclusively. Because the animals need to be accustomed to handlers, and the public, they do need to be "socialized." To lure him out from under the desk requires a lot of grit, a sweet potato, and snapping. He responds to snapping, and if we ignore the 16 inch quills that can indeed inflict much harm (note the nervousness of my smile?) he is actually quite friendly. Yes, quill pigs will eat carrion, so if I bleed out from an encounter, Domino would likely eat me...and with Jupiter on the ASC, probably before the wild dogs get me...:cool: (Disclaimer...the animals here are not pets, other than the domestic ones mentioned. It requires licensing, permits, and over 2 million dollars in insurance to have them. I do not advocate exotic animals as pets. They are, and always will be wild. As even my youngest knows, anything with a mouth can bite. And usually does at the worst possible moment.)

Kaiousei no Senshi and JUPITERASC, yes, at 50 lbs, an African crested porcupine probably counts as a small animal. I for sure wouldn't want to try riding one...so Virgo indeed? All of our animals here could be considered "small" with the possible exception of the Sulcata tortoises. They can carry an adult human on their backs...if the human can keep his balance, that is. :pinched:

So, to tie it back to the astrology (heaven forbid this fun get deleted as off topic!) Virgo rules small animals, but tsmall isn't the zookeeper. She just lives here. :andy: So, how much did the ancients use derived houses? And would we look to tsmall's 7th (for her husband, who is the real authority) and then the 6th from that, to see? Or, in tsmall's chart, how could we find a life in a zoo?

sandstone
04-08-2012, 12:57 AM
lol - good point on the derived houses.. might explain the synergy between houses opposite one another really well here.. now everyone can go animal on that one, lol..

byjove
06-28-2012, 11:52 AM
I've just been reading more about the predominator, Oikodespotes and Kurios.

I read that a planet can gain some ability to conduct it's business with certain mitigations such as being the sign or exaltation sign of one of its trigon associates. Can that mitigate retrograde - walking backwards? Also can it help being under the Sun's beams?

My scenario:

Day chart

Saturn in 6th whole sign of Sagg, retrograde, out of sect, ruled by Jupiter
POF in 6th whole sign of Sagg, ruled by Jupiter
Jupiter in 10th whole sign of Aries, in sect, within 15 degrees of Sun, ruled by Mars

Sun in 10th whole sign of Aries, in sect, ruled by Mars (Mars joys because Sun is exalted, Mars in 12th whole sign in Gemini)

Does the strength of the Sun save his trigon friends? Both Saturn and Jupiter have afflictions - out of sect Saturn and retrograde, Jupiter under the Sun's beams, but both are in their trigon associates sign.

I cannot figure out the Kurios either.


Ascendant sign. Planets in the Ascendant sign and bounds of the ascending degree. My ascending degree is 27, Mercury is at 27 degrees.
Domicile Lord of Ascendant. That's the Moon, joy in house 3 Virgo.
Moon and its Domicile Lord. As above, it's lord is Mercury in Pisces, benefiting from the company of exalted Venus.
Tenth sign from ascendant and its Domicile Lord. Aries, ruler Mars, Mars in 12th of Gemini in joy because Sun exalted.
Lot of Fortune and its Domicile Lord. In Sagg, Jupiter in sect in 10th but under Sun's beams.
Any planets that make phasis* in the chart. Should also include planets that make a first or second station 7 days before or after nativity. Who, what and where?
The bound lord of the pre-natal lunation. Huh?

As for trigon lords, if the Sun is the predominator of my chart, then Mars ruled the 1st third of my life, followed by the Sun then Jupiter - things were fantastic until early 20s, much trickier now, yet the Sun is perhaps the best placed in my chart. :surprised:

tsmall
06-28-2012, 11:05 PM
byjove, you know I'm still learning same as you, but a few thoughts?

I've just been reading more about the predominator, Oikodespotes and Kurios.

I read that a planet can gain some ability to conduct it's business with certain mitigations such as being the sign or exaltation sign of one of its trigon associates. Can that mitigate retrograde - walking backwards? Also can it help being under the Sun's beams? I don't know the answer about some of the mitigations, but I don't <think> it's necessarily a bad thing to have the sect malefic retrograde in your chart. Limits the amount of harm it can do...

My scenario:

Day chart

Saturn in 6th whole sign of Sagg, retrograde, out of sect, ruled by Jupiter
POF in 6th whole sign of Sagg, ruled by Jupiter
Jupiter in 10th whole sign of Aries, in sect, within 15 degrees of Sun, ruled by Mars

Sun in 10th whole sign of Aries, in sect, ruled by Mars (Mars joys because Sun is exalted, Mars in 12th whole sign in Gemini)

Does the strength of the Sun save his trigon friends? Both Saturn and Jupiter have afflictions - out of sect Saturn and retrograde, Jupiter under the Sun's beams, but both are in their trigon associates sign. Just to check that you are using Dorothean triplicities? Also, I'm not sure if it's Hellenistic or just traditional (I tend to think the 1st, but I'd have to check the reference again) that some planets do "ok" when they are combust or under the beams...ah, it was the Persian astrologer Abu Ma'shar that said that Jupiter under the beams "is like a man who loves justice, is honest and got free from his bonds, and so is mild, well-disposed toward everything, kind and merciful."

I cannot figure out the Kurios either.


Ascendant sign. Planets in the Ascendant sign and bounds of the ascending degree. My ascending degree is 27, Mercury is at 27 degrees.
Domicile Lord of Ascendant. That's the Moon, joy in house 3 Virgo.
Moon and its Domicile Lord. As above, it's lord is Mercury in Pisces, benefiting from the company of exalted Venus.
Tenth sign from ascendant and its Domicile Lord. Aries, ruler Mars, Mars in 12th of Gemini in joy because Sun exalted.
Lot of Fortune and its Domicile Lord. In Sagg, Jupiter in sect in 10th but under Sun's beams.
Any planets that make phasis* in the chart. Should also include planets that make a first or second station 7 days before or after nativity. Who, what and where?
The bound lord of the pre-natal lunation. Huh? The prenatal lunation is the syzygy..you look at the chart to see which occured most closely prior to the birth, a full moon, or a new moon. That is the "lunation."

As for trigon lords, if the Sun is the predominator of my chart, then Mars ruled the 1st third of my life, followed by the Sun then Jupiter - things were fantastic until early 20s, much trickier now, yet the Sun is perhaps the best placed in my chart. :surprised:

Remember that there are many time lord/chronocrator methods, so you need to know what area of life you want to examine before you decide which to use...

Oh, and I wanted to mention that Saturn is still in sect in your chart. All your diurnal planets are naturally in sect, all of your nocturnal ones not.

JUPITERASC
06-28-2012, 11:39 PM
I've just been reading more about the predominator, Oikodespotes and Kurios.

I read that a planet can gain some ability to conduct it's business with certain mitigations such as being the sign or exaltation sign of one of its trigon associates. Can that mitigate retrograde - walking backwards?
Here is one of the comments I posted on the hellenistic delineation of retrograde planets at the "Views on Retrogradation" thread byjove at http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum:smile:/showthread.php?p=374327#post374327 (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=374327#post374327) Vettius Valens tells us that when a planet is in the interval of first station to second station (i.e. retrograde), the planet is "not fit to conduct its business" because it is described as “walking backwards”.

IN CONTRAST

When a planet is making a Station and/or phasis, it is not only capable of appearing but is also intensified as Robert Schmidt of Project Hindsight says, Phasis means “making an appearance” or “sudden dramatic showing of something”. It can also mean “something that speaks” or “an appearance that speaks”.

So, two thousand years ago, astrologers considered a Retrograde planet as "walking backwards" and therefore unable to work well.

EXCEPT under the special circumstances when that planet makes a station and is for example, stationary Retrograde, then that planet is intensified because it is "making an appearance" and "dramatically showing something"

IMO then, based on these ancient ideas, one could say that a stationary Retrograde planet is dramatically drawing our attention to something.....:smile:
Also can it help being under the Sun's beams?
If a planet is in its own domicile, exaltation et al then Schmidt translates Valens as "it is as if the planet is in its own covered chariot and thus protected from combustion and/or the Sun's beams" - Thus there is mitigation :smile:

byjove
06-29-2012, 01:24 AM
tsmall - you're too modest, in Hellenistic matters you've moved at the speed of lightening and I am your junior, I'm happy to learn from you! :biggrin: I'm confused by the point about Saturn though; I thought, it's a diurnal chart, Saturn is one of the lords, he is in the 6th sign therefore below the horizon and out of sect. Did I miss something? I may have...there can be patches in my memory. :whistling:

jupiterasc - I've run out of thanks already today, but thank you! :happy: I have the Jupiter matter cleared up! He's good to go then. I have searched for phasis and cannot find an explanation, what is it exactly?

As for the retrograde position of Saturn, I see in my year of birth:

| MAR 31, 1987 | 04:09 AM | 21SA10 | SA SR |
| AUG 19, 1987 | 07:22 AM | 14SA32 | SA SD |

http://www.astropro.com/features/tables/geo/sa-sta/sa-sta09.html

So, being born in April, Saturn was retrograde just 2 weeks. So I should consider that the first station?

(Saturn is squared by my 1st ruler, touches my Sun, conjoins my POF, rules my 7th and is squared by Venus, if I could get him on the good side, it would surely be as much luck as anything Jupiter could provide...:)

JUPITERASC
06-29-2012, 02:21 AM
tsmall - you're too modest, in Hellenistic matters you've moved at the speed of lightening and I am your junior, I'm happy to learn from you! :biggrin: I'm confused by the point about Saturn though; I thought, it's a diurnal chart, Saturn is one of the lords, he is in the 6th sign therefore below the horizon and out of sect. Did I miss something? I may have...there can be patches in my memory. :whistling:

jupiterasc - I've run out of thanks already today, but thank you! :happy: I have the Jupiter matter cleared up! He's good to go then. I have searched for phasis and cannot find an explanation, what is it exactly?

As for the retrograde position of Saturn, I see in my year of birth:

| MAR 31, 1987 | 04:09 AM | 21SA10 | SA SR |
| AUG 19, 1987 | 07:22 AM | 14SA32 | SA SD |

http://www.astropro.com/features/tables/geo/sa-sta/sa-sta09.html

So, being born in April, Saturn was retrograde just 2 weeks. So I should consider that the first station?

(Saturn is squared by my 1st ruler, touches my Sun, conjoins my POF, rules my 7th and is squared by Venus, if I could get him on the good side, it would surely be as much luck as anything Jupiter could provide...:)
From memory I recall that Phasis refers to a planet that is making a heliacal rising within seven days of the birth - i.e. seven days before or seven days after the nativity. Anyhow, here's a great link to a discussion on Phasis at ACT astrology forum on Schmidt's Hellenistic thread http://actastrology.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=34&start=10 :smile: (http://actastrology.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=34&start=10:smile:)

tsmall
06-29-2012, 02:25 AM
tsmall - you're too modest, in Hellenistic matters you've moved at the speed of lightening and I am your junior, I'm happy to learn from you! :biggrin: I'm confused by the point about Saturn though; I thought, it's a diurnal chart, Saturn is one of the lords, he is in the 6th sign therefore below the horizon and out of sect. Did I miss something? I may have...there can be patches in my memory. :whistling:



Um, I think what you are missing is that you have a day chart...so all your diurnal planets are automatically "in sect." I believe there was a definition of hayz and halb earlier on this thread, but Saturn is in sect in your chart, just not as much as he could be. It's an important distinction, and I hope someone (JUPITERASC?) can correct me if I'm wrong, but the planets of the sect of the chart are more apt to work on the behalf of the native?

btw, thanks for the compliment, but still just a newb to this. :pinched:

JUPITERASC
06-29-2012, 03:09 AM
Um, I think what you are missing is that you have a day chart...so all your diurnal planets are automatically "in sect." I believe there was a definition of hayz and halb earlier on this thread, but Saturn is in sect in your chart, just not as much as he could be. It's an important distinction, and I hope someone (JUPITERASC?) can correct me if I'm wrong, but the planets of the sect of the chart are more apt to work on the behalf of the native?

btw, thanks for the compliment, but still just a newb to this . :pinched:
I'm no expert either tsmall! Everything I have posted on this thread is gleaned from Robert Schmidts translation of Valens and/or Professor Riley's translation of Valens and/or ACT astrology forum http://actastrology.com/viewforum.php?f=4

byjove these two comments explain sect and phasis very basically Chris Brennan and Zoidsoft are the two Hellenistic experts of our forum :smile:

Conditions relative to Sun then:

When a planet is in the interval from heliacal rising up to first station or from second station up to the heliacal setting, the planet is capable of appearing and therefore is in a place conducive to the conduct of its business .

The heliacal rising of a star (or other body such as the moon, a planet or a constellation) occurs when it first becomes visible above the eastern horizon for a brief moment just before sunrise, after a period of time when it had not been visible http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliacal_rising

When a planet is making a Station and/or phasis, it is not only capable of appearing but is also intensified [Schmidt says that Phasis means “making an appearance” or “sudden dramatic showing of something”. It can also mean “something that speaks” or we can say that it means “an appearance that speaks”].

Phasis describes a planet making a heliacal rising (rising before the sun) (standardized to 15 degrees by Hellenistic astrology) within 7 days before of after native’s birth. Rumen Kolev one of the few living practitioners of Ancient Babylonian Astrology based on his own observations of the skies, states that the 15ş standardisation is obviously a variable dependent upon local conditions.

When any planet is “under the sun’s beams” i.e. within 15 ecliptic degrees of the sun, the planet is considered not capable of conducting its business due to being “drained or unempowered”. However, there are modifications to this such as if a planet is in its Exaltation, own terms or own bounds or dignity, then the planet is considered to be “in its own chariot” and therefore “protected and/or shielded” from the potential 'harm' of combustion.

When a planet is in the interval of first station to second station (i.e. retrograde), the planet is not fit to conduct its business because it is described as “walking backwards”.

The Hellenistic Concept of Sect: Sect is just one word for a group of people with a common interest forming a distinct unit within a larger group by virtue of certain refinements or distinctions of belief or practice. e.g. a political party or faction united by common interests or beliefs especially concerned with their own narrow interests . Some planets belong to one sect, and some to the other. The two sects are diurnal and nocturnal – i.e. day and night.

The Sun is the leader of the diurnal sect, and the planets in that sect are Saturn and Jupiter.

The Moon is the leader of the nocturnal sect, and the planets in that sect are Mars and Venus.

If Mercury rises before the Sun—if he’s a morning star—then Mercury belongs to the diurnal sect.

But if Mercury sets after the Sun—if he’s an evening star—then Mercury belongs to the nocturnal sect.

So, those are the two sects, their leaders, and their members. :smile:

What sect signifies
What is meant by “being in sect” or “being in the sect of favour” is simply that planets are happiest if they are in an area of a natal chart that is in sync with their sect

So, for example, a nocturnal Mars is not going to be too happy in a diurnal chart and a diurnal Saturn is not going to be too happy in a nocturnal chart.

Similarly, in politics, two sects such as the Republicans and the Democrats each want to be in power and are unhappy and could potentially cause disruption for the other elected opposition party. In the booklet "Night & Day, Planetary sect in Astrology", Robert Hand writes on page 6, second paragraph:

"Although no ancient writing ever states this explicitly..... the most important of these relationships is that a planet is of the same sect as the chart. Diurnal planets work best in diurnal charts and nocturnal planets in nocturnal charts. That the condition of the chart is the most important of these three sect factors can be inferred from the fact that many of the Greek texts only mention the charts diurnal or nocturnal status in relation to the sect of the planet. Little is said about the agreement of the sect of the planet with that of the sign/placement"

JUPITERASC
03-07-2013, 02:28 PM
One reason why I don't think I want to practice Hellenistic astrology although I've been reading a lot of it lately, is because so many of the interpretations are just seem dire to the point of being silly. So how does one practice a reasonably authentic Hellenistic astrology without the sensationalistic interpretations?
BUT to be realistic, 'dire' events do occur from time to time - just reading the news media confirms that fact! :smile:

Valens also is one guy who loaded his text with a lot of sensationalist and dire predictions. Not my cup of tea, but somebody else might appreciate them.
Sensational events do occur though! As evidenced by news reports

More generally, according to Rhetorius the Egyptian (sec. 77)
you are in danger of being killed by "wild beasts" if your Mars is the ruler of the sign (i.e., Scorpio or Aries) of the 8th house and the house is "impedited" (??)without being aspected by Jupiter or Venus or if Mars is aspected by the sun.....
QUOTE:

Lion killed volunteer at California big cat sanctuary after the worker climbed into the animals cage.

Dale Anderson, has run the zoo since 1993, cried as he read short statement about the intern's death, extending his thoughts and prayers to victim's family and friends.

Investigators are trying to find out why the woman was inside the enclosure and what might have provoked the attack.

Nicole Paquette, vice president of Humane Society of United States, animal welfare charity, said:

"She should have never been in the enclosure with him.

These are big cats that are extremely dangerous."

You know, while death by animal attacks in the wild might have happened in late antiquity, I wonder if those death forecasts refer to something like Christians or convicted criminals having to fend off lions in the Colosseum. (cf. Androcles and the Lion.)That certainly seems a possibility in antiquity

However, evidence regarding the 20th and 21st Centuries is easier to confirm http://news.sky.com/story/1061203/lion-kills-volunteer-keeper-at-big-cat-park

"Last year - i.e. 2012 - according to Big Cat Rescue Sanctuary in Tampa, Florida, at least 21 people, including five children, have been killed and 246 mauled by exotic cats in the US since 1990.

Over that period, 254 cats escaped and 143 were killed.
...With a Mars-sun contact, you are also in danger of being crucified or beheaded, so watch it.
Beheading is a not unusual occurrence even in today's 'civilized world'!

- Mexico for example is frequently in the news regarding drug-cartel related beheading

Unfortunately murders where the victim is beheaded have occurred worldwide - including US

waybread
03-08-2013, 06:16 PM
Has anyone done the horoscope interpretation on victims of predator attacks?

JUPITERASC
03-08-2013, 06:49 PM
Has anyone done the horoscope interpretation on victims of predator attacks?
News reports do not provide time, day, year, month, country of birth, unfortunately :smile:

dr. farr
03-09-2013, 04:25 AM
There is a list of birth dates (but not hour of births) for 25 of the 26 Newtown shooting victims; I have been looking at the planetary connections and indications (including planetary directions), which have been very suggestive (unfortunately without birth times we can't look at Lots, ascendants, MC's, or the Moon-however, a surprising amount of suggestive indications regarding trends, etc, can be derived from the planetary birth positions and their directions) Eventually I will post the results of my investigations regarding these 25 victims and their astrological connections with the event chart of the incident.

waybread
03-09-2013, 08:39 PM
Then we can't say that the Hellenistic techniques to predict animal attacks actually work.

JUPITERASC
03-09-2013, 09:07 PM
Then we can't say that the Hellenistic techniques to predict animal attacks actually work.
Equally, it cannot be said that the Hellenistic techniques to predict animal attacks actually do not work :smile:

JUPITERASC
05-25-2013, 04:33 PM
24 year old died after tiger mauling yesterday in England

'...An experienced zoo worker who was mauled to death by a tiger had "no reason" to be in its enclosure, the animal park's owner claims.

Sarah McClay, 24, was attacked by a Sumatran tiger at South Lakes Wild Animal Park, in Dalton-in-Furness, Cumbria, Friday afternoon and was taken by air ambulance to Royal Preston Hospital but died later from her injuries. Cumbria Police said the tiger was locked in its enclosure following the attack and that members of the public were not at any risk during the incident. Police and Barrow Borough Council are investigating the circumstances surrounding the incident...' http://www.channel4.com/news/tiger-attack-mauled-dead-zoo-worker

'….David Gill, owner/founder of South Lakes Wild Animal Park, said Ms McClay worked at the wildlife park for a number of years and was very experienced in looking after big cats - he had no explanation as to why she had entered the enclosure. "After investigation by authorities and police, it does seem that she basically failed to follow the correct procedures. For some unknown reason, an inexplicable reason, because there is no reason for why she did it, she opened the door and went into the tiger enclosure and straight into the tigers, and now we'll never know why."...'

Around the world, deaths from attacks by wild animals are not unusual. Neither date of birth nor time of birth of this victim have been released

may28gemini
05-25-2013, 08:41 PM
I think that's extremely sad, for both the human that got mauled and the animal that probably will get put down for mauling. That creature must be very unhappy about something... it was abused/mistreated for it to lash out.

JUPITERASC
05-25-2013, 09:05 PM
I think that's extremely sad, for both the human that got mauled and the animal that probably will get put down for mauling. That creature must be very unhappy about something... it was abused/mistreated for it to lash out.
Not necessarily. The zoo owner, whilst acknowledging the tragic nature of the event, is reminding everyone that Tigers are natural born killers/predators so there's nothing odd or strange that a tiger has mauled/killed :smile:

may28gemini
05-25-2013, 09:22 PM
So the creature won't get put down?

It's tragic that the zoo worker was so young and was just going to work one day and then got attacked and died. Working in a zoo can be very dangerous but I'm assuming she understood that level of impending danger. Still, it's tragic and sad. Tigers will kill and all life forms eventually die, but to die horrifically like that at work, that's very sad.

Astrologically, I don't think there's way to predict the attack itself but we could look at the zoo worker's chart (if available) and see what was being aspected that lead to her death (from the attack).

JUPITERASC
05-25-2013, 09:51 PM
So the creature won't get put down?

It's tragic that the zoo worker was so young and was just going to work one day and then got attacked and died. Working in a zoo can be very dangerous but I'm assuming she understood that level of impending danger. Still, it's tragic and sad. Tigers will kill and all life forms eventually die, but to die horrifically like that at work, that's very sad.

Astrologically, I don't think there's way to predict the attack itself but we could look at the zoo worker's chart (if available) and see what was being aspected that lead to her death (from the attack).
This being the 'Hellenistic Delineations' Thread and also Traditional Forum, if the date of birth of the victim is ever publicized, then delineation of the chart would use Hellenistic astrological techniques as outlined at the beginning of this thread... and an accurate time of birth would be essential :smile:

According to news reports the victim was NOT 'suddenly taken unawares by an attacking tiger' but instead she apparently 'deliberately walked ALONE into the inner enclosure amongst the tigers' - extraordinary behavior that has surprised everyone at the zoo, because one simply does not walk alone into an enclosure full of possibly hungry tigers.

tsmall
05-26-2013, 03:36 AM
So the creature won't get put down?

It's tragic that the zoo worker was so young and was just going to work one day and then got attacked and died. Working in a zoo can be very dangerous but I'm assuming she understood that level of impending danger. Still, it's tragic and sad. Tigers will kill and all life forms eventually die, but to die horrifically like that at work, that's very sad.

Astrologically, I don't think there's way to predict the attack itself but we could look at the zoo worker's chart (if available) and see what was being aspected that lead to her death (from the attack).

First rule of dealing with wild cats..never turn your back on them. First rule in zookeeping? Any attack is the fault of the human and not the animal.

may28gemini, all zoo people know, understand, and accept that wild animals are and always will be unpredictable (and as a zoo people, I should know.) Do we blame the cat for acting like the cat/predator he/she is? Of course not. There is a parable of sorts, about the scorpion and the frog.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Scorpion_and_the_Frog

As to whether or not this could be seen in the native's chart, well that is the point that JUPITERASC is trying to make. That which we often want to dismiss in our haste to discount what our ancestors in astrology teach (and which in my opinion can be viewed as metaphor, much the same as what our religious teachings found in the Bible, the Qur'an, the Talmud...or any religious text you choose) often can be interpreted literally instead of symbolically.

Larxene
07-08-2013, 07:39 AM
If we can get our hands on the native's chart, I believe there's a hellenistic technique of predicting one's death, involving the Hyleg and Alcocoden if I'm not mistaken.

waybread
07-08-2013, 10:19 PM
Hellenistic astrologers routinely predicted death. People didn't live so long in ancient times, so one of the first things done with a baby's nativity was to check its longevity, on the grounds there was no point in forecasting the child's life into middle age if he wasn't going to have one. Check out Ptolemy and Vettius Valens.

Of course, we have no way of verifying their accuracy. The techniques are not identical and they don't all give the same answer.

Also in Roman times infanticide was common, for children who were unwanted for whatever reason. Sometimes parents would look to an astrologer for this purpose. However, babies were sometimes rescued from the garbage dumps where they were abandoned, though often to be "collected" by unscrupulous traffickers in slaves and prostitutes. So it's unclear how accurate the horoscopes pointing to infanticide would have been.

Not a pretty thought.

tsmall
07-09-2013, 01:04 AM
If we can get our hands on the native's chart, I believe there's a hellenistic technique of predicting one's death, involving the Hyleg and Alcocoden if I'm not mistaken.

What is with everyone suddenly wanting to predict death?

Hilij and kadukhudhah are later Arabic words and terms. If I have this correctly (and goodness knows I probably don't. Reading some of this stuff makes my eyes cross) there is a big difference in who can be hilij/hyleg (later Persian) and who can be Epikratetor (also know as predominator) in the chart. The Greeks were much more restrictive in the choices.

But again...why does it seem lately that so many people are concerned with predicting their deaths?

Larxene
07-09-2013, 04:35 AM
I was responding to the animal attack topic. We may not be able to predict animal attacks, but if we have that woman's chart, we may be able to find the time of her death within the chart, and manner of death (I believe there was something on this. Not sure.)

waybread
07-09-2013, 05:14 AM
What is with everyone suddenly wanting to predict death?

Hilij and kadukhudhah are later Arabic words and terms. If I have this correctly (and goodness knows I probably don't. Reading some of this stuff makes my eyes cross) there is a big difference in who can be hilij/hyleg (later Persian) and who can be Epikratetor (also know as predominator) in the chart. The Greeks were much more restrictive in the choices.

But again...why does it seem lately that so many people are concerned with predicting their deaths?

I know you're not a modern astrologer, but I wonder if it's Pluto in Capricorn opposing a big stellium in Cancer: sun, moon, Mercury, Jupiter; with Uranus in Aries forming a T-square. Some of these planets have moved out-of-orb, but then the posts started a few days ago.

I don't think it would affect everyone: just people with "hits" from the Roman god of death and the underworld.

JUPITERASC
10-14-2013, 10:17 PM
I know you're not a modern astrologer, but I wonder if it's Pluto in Capricorn opposing a big stellium in Cancer: sun, moon, Mercury, Jupiter; with Uranus in Aries forming a T-square. Some of these planets have moved out-of-orb, but then the posts started a few days ago.

I don't think it would affect everyone: just people with "hits" from the Roman god of death and the underworld.
Those ideas are for modern astrologers and of no consequence on the Traditional forum Hellenistic delineations thread :smile:

tsmall
10-15-2013, 02:33 AM
I know you're not a modern astrologer, but I wonder if it's Pluto in Capricorn opposing a big stellium in Cancer: sun, moon, Mercury, Jupiter; with Uranus in Aries forming a T-square. Some of these planets have moved out-of-orb, but then the posts started a few days ago.

I don't think it would affect everyone: just people with "hits" from the Roman god of death and the underworld.

JUPITERASC is correct, a question surrounding Pluto probably doesn't belong on this thread, but I'm wicked confused (to use a Downeast colloquialism.) Currently, Jupiter is in Cancer, but..Sun is in Libra, Mercury is is Scorpio and Moon..well it really doesn't matter where the Moon is at the moment because as you point out these inquiries have been happening for quite a bit of time now.

waybread
10-15-2013, 06:26 AM
The dates on these posts are hard to read, but my latest was from July, when a bunch of planets were in Cancer. But Pluto was in Capricorn.

tsmall
10-15-2013, 10:24 PM
The dates on these posts are hard to read, but my latest was from July, when a bunch of planets were in Cancer. But Pluto was in Capricorn.


Hahaha, ok, now I'm no longer confused. :cool:

JUPITERASC
03-12-2014, 11:07 PM
The dates on these posts are hard to read, but my latest was from July, when a bunch of planets were in Cancer. But Pluto was in Capricorn.
QUOTE

Traditional Astrology Forum is for discussions on Traditional Astrology only.

Note:

Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras.

Specifically it relies on Ptolemaic aspects sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction

and EXCLUDES modern planets Neptune, Uranus and Pluto :smile:

non-Ptolemaic aspects, as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretetation and more on prediction.

Members who wishhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43920&page=12&highlight=hellenistic#) to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)

dr. farr
03-13-2014, 05:36 AM
Just a historical note regarding Kepler's (non-Ptolemaic) aspects: these were proposed by Kepler (prior to 1630) and were extensively used in astrological delineation by many during the 17th century, including Placidus de Titus, who was perhaps the most famous of the astrologers during that time who used these non-Ptolemaic aspects in chart analysis (see for example, his 2 volume "De Siderum Judiciis", 1660, 1665) Note that it was also this same Placidus de Titus who introduced the Placidus House system during that pre-1700 time: if it is ok to discuss pre-1700 house division formats (like Placidus) in our Traditional Forum, why is it not ok to discuss pre-1700 non-Ptolemaic aspects used by Placidus (and others) in their astrological practice, during those same pre-1700 times??

NOW, I myself do NOT use the Kepler aspects (followed by Placidus de Titus-more exactly, "de Titis"-and others), and I have no interest in discussing them-but I post this, just for the historical record (a reference to Placidus de Titus application of Kepler aspects can be found as a footnote in the Ashmand translation of Ptolemy's "Tetrabiblos")...

Purple9
10-02-2017, 08:40 AM
I would just like to take a moment and thank everyone on this thread, an these forums in general for the time, effort and care to put this together, for the benefit of everyone eager to learn. Studying astrology is so very time-consuming even in the modern age of technology where you have to sift through the garbage to get to the point and it is so easy to lose your way. I live in a place where there is no access to old books and I live the kind of life that does not lend itself to spending money on books (or my studies) except during the odd transit. So really, thank you for everything all of you do here. This thread is just one awesome example of this. Apologies for a non-astrological post. Just felt overwhelmed with gratitude. All the best.

JUPITERASC
10-02-2017, 11:53 AM
I would just like to take a moment
and thank everyone on this thread
an these forums in general for the time, effort and care
to put this together, for the benefit of everyone eager to learn.
Studying astrology is so very time-consuming
even in the modern age of technology
where you have to sift through the garbage to get to the point
and it is so easy to lose your way.

Then read all posts made by member BobZemco
he has not posted for months, if not years
but we have his comments
and they are valuable
for example the discussion at http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=66443&highlight=feral


I live in a place where there is no access to old books

Good news - there's a study library of FREE TEXTS on the web
There are five collections in this library.

The main collection (http://www.skyscript.co.uk/texts.html#main) contains links to books and magazines written in English that are directly related to 'traditional astrology' (from classical to modern times).
The extended collection (http://www.skyscript.co.uk/texts.html#ext) refers to texts that are partly astrological or useful for historical research or philosophical principles.
The ancient collection (http://www.skyscript.co.uk/texts.html#aa) contains links to ancient texts, fragments, or secondary sources that cover the ancient period.
The scholar's collection (http://www.skyscript.co.uk/texts.html#sc) contains links to published theses, dissertations, and peer-reviewed papers.
The Latin & Greek collection (http://www.skyscript.co.uk/texts.html#lat) contains links to important works in older languages

details at http://www.skyscript.co.uk/texts.html

Another good list of links to astrological works is available at http://cura.free.fr/DIAL.html



and I live the kind of life that does not lend itself to spending money on books
(or my studies) except during the odd transit.
So really, thank you for everything all of you do here.
This thread is just one awesome example of this.
Apologies for a non-astrological post.
Just felt overwhelmed with gratitude. All the best.
Thanks for your good wishes to us all Purple9 :smile:
always good to be appreciated

Purple9
10-02-2017, 03:44 PM
"Then read all posts made by member BobZemco
he has not posted for months, if not years
but we have his comments
and they are valuable
for example the discussion at http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=66443&highlight=feral"

ON IT!

"Good news - there's a study library of FREE TEXTS on the web
There are five collections in this library.

"details at http://www.skyscript.co.uk/texts.html"
I found this already yes and sourcing

"Another good list of links to astrological works is available at http://cura.free.fr/DIAL.html"
HA! On it!

Thank you so much!

waybread
10-02-2017, 10:25 PM
Purple, if you have a particular interest in Hellenistic astrology, and can afford one book, I would recommend Chris Brennan's new book, Hellenistic Astrology. It's available at amazon.

Also, Mark Riley's translation of Vettius Valens, Anthologies (150 CE) is on-line at:
http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/vettius%20valens%20entire.pdf

The Skyscript website is a goldmine of traditional astrology articles. www.skyscript.co.uk

Then don't overlook your nearest university or public library. University libraries will often give memberships to people in the community: just inquire in person at the information desk or via email to the head librarian or whoever handles library cards. If you don't live near a university, even a small branch library (like the one in my nearest town, pop. 5000) can get books and articles through Interlibrary Loan for you. The astrology-for-astrologers materials probably wouldn't available, but for sure you could get English translations of Ptolemy and Manilius. Even a small branch library can access the big urban public libraries as well as university libraries.

If you let me know your particular interests I can post some additional references.

JUPITERASC
10-02-2017, 11:12 PM
"Then read all posts made by member BobZemco
he has not posted for months, if not years
but we have his comments
and they are valuable
for example the discussion at http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=66443&highlight=feral"

ON IT!

"Good news - there's a study library of FREE TEXTS on the web
There are five collections in this library.

"details at http://www.skyscript.co.uk/texts.html"
I found this already yes and sourcing

"Another good list of links to astrological works is available at http://cura.free.fr/DIAL.html"
HA! On it!

Thank you so much!


that's great - have fun :smile:

Purple9
10-03-2017, 07:42 AM
Purple, if you have a particular interest in Hellenistic astrology, and can afford one book, I would recommend Chris Brennan's new book, Hellenistic Astrology. It's available at amazon.

Also, Mark Riley's translation of Vettius Valens, Anthologies (150 CE) is on-line at:
http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/vettius%20valens%20entire.pdf

The Skyscript website is a goldmine of traditional astrology articles. www.skyscript.co.uk (http://www.skyscript.co.uk)

Then don't overlook your nearest university or public library. University libraries will often give memberships to people in the community: just inquire in person at the information desk or via email to the head librarian or whoever handles library cards. If you don't live near a university, even a small branch library (like the one in my nearest town, pop. 5000) can get books and articles through Interlibrary Loan for you. The astrology-for-astrologers materials probably wouldn't available, but for sure you could get English translations of Ptolemy and Manilius. Even a small branch library can access the big urban public libraries as well as university libraries.

If you let me know your particular interests I can post some additional references.

THANK YOU!!!
I have a list of books to order and will do so one at a time whenever possible. Thanks for the library tip! Trouble with ours is that the books are mainly in Greek :) While I am fluent in Greek (so helpful with the Hellenistic Astrology terminology btw), it is easier for me to focus in English. And their choice is so limited. I did not know about interlibrary loans. I will ask them. Maybe they can get some translations too.

I have been going over skyscript resources and have some more to go over. Once I am done I will shout out if there is something specific I see that I need. You are all wonderful. Thanks a million.

JUPITERASC
10-03-2017, 10:11 AM
also
sevenstars astrology :smile:
offers TWELVE FREE LESSONS FOR ABSOLUTE BEGINNERS
for specifically HELLENISTIC DELINEATION
with multiple examples http://www.sevenstarsastrology.com/

Purple9
10-03-2017, 03:35 PM
also
sevenstars astrology :smile:
offers TWELVE FREE LESSONS FOR ABSOLUTE BEGINNERS
for specifically HELLENISTIC DELINEATION
with multiple examples http://www.sevenstarsastrology.com/

Echo...:) yes I was guided to it earlier and will be on it shortly! Unless I spontaneously combust in the process! Thank you so much!

david starling
01-01-2018, 11:59 PM
Ah, well, one step at a time then? Especially when working with a "noob?" To start, it appears that we first need to determine the chart sect? As in, whether the sun has precidence (day chart) or the moon (night chart?) In this instance, it would be the moon, as it is a nighttime chart? We then need to look to see which image (sign) houses the moon, and determine the trigon lord? And of course, next would be to explain what exactly trigon lords are. :unsure: I can see this is going to be a pretty big undertaking...




Are you able to short-cut this? Otherwise, it could be after Christmas before I can make a thourough study...

Indeed. A Thread worthy of study after Christmas! :biggrin:

JUPITERASC
01-02-2018, 10:33 AM
Indeed. A Thread worthy of study after Christmas! :biggrin:


A thread rewarding of study at any time including today :smile:

Senecar
01-08-2018, 11:18 AM
This being the 'Hellenistic Delineations' Thread and also Traditional Forum, if the date of birth of the victim is ever publicized, then delineation of the chart would use Hellenistic astrological techniques as outlined at the beginning of this thread... and an accurate time of birth would be essential :smile:



Not many people seem to know their own accurate time of birth, especially the elder generation.

Senecar
01-09-2018, 11:03 AM
Some one asked me to read for his chart for 2018. I asked his DOB, POB and TOB.

He gave all the info, but for his TOB, the most accurate he could think of is between 6 - 9pm.

I recall reading in a book that twin's life being totally different because they were born 4 minutes apart, and the fast moving stars change the house in that time.

JUPITERASC
01-09-2018, 11:11 AM
Not many people seem to know their own accurate time of birth
especially the elder generation.

No time of birth = no HELLENISTIC HOROSCOPIC Astrological natal chart :smile:

JUPITERASC
01-11-2018, 11:08 AM
I am not sure if this is the correct place to post this question (so if it needs to be moved?)

With all the current interest in Hellenistic methods, how exactly does one go about delineating a chart using Hellenistic astrology?


That's the OP
Ah, well, one step at a time then? Especially when working with a "noob?" One step at a time is a more sensible approach than leaping merrily over a chasm

To start, it appears that we first need to determine the chart sect? As in, whether the sun has precidence (day chart) or the moon (night chart?) In this instance, it would be the moon, as it is a nighttime chart? We then need to look to see which image (sign) houses the moon, and determine the trigon lord? And of course, next would be to explain what exactly trigon lords are. :unsure: I can see this is going to be a pretty big undertaking..
The following are basics of Hellenistic analysis from Valens as translated by Robert Schmidt

To find conditions relevant to the fitness and/or ability of a planet to conduct its business we would commence with assessing conditions that are relative to the horizon, so:

If a planet is in an angular or succedent Whole Sign house then the planet is in a place conducive to the conduct of its business.
Angular Houses = 1,4,7,10: Succedent Houses = 2,5,8.11

If a planet remains angular when using dynamic house system Porphyry then the planet is said to be 'goaded' towards more activity.

If a planet is in a cadent Whole Sign house, then the planet is in a place that is not conducive to the conduct of its business.
Cadent Houses = 3,6,9,12

If a benefic planet is in a cadent house, the beneficence of the planet is turned away from the native (or native’s agenda).

If a malefic planet is in a cadent house, the malevolence of the planet is turned away from the native (or the native's agenda).



Are you able to short-cut this? Otherwise, it could be after Christmas before I can make a thourough study...


Astrologers seem to have had more time available to them two thousand plus years ago... how fortunate they were!

Unfortunately however they lacked computers, so to send and receive messages took weeks, months, if not years, so on balance since we have an online forum, we are in a sense, fortunate! Good also that neither of us has to chisel ancient hieroglyphics onto stone. Merry Christmas and a very Happy New Year :smile:

There is software that does all the donkey work available from astrology x files (Curtis Manwaring) http://www.zodiac-x-files.com/ and Rumen Kolev (one of the few living practitioners of Ancient Babylonian Astrology who also just happens to be a software programmer) has this extraordinary product on offer http://alabe.com/placidus.html :smile:

The next step according to Schmidt if anyone is interested is:

"The proposed algorithms for both of these ruling planets are not without their interpretive difficulties, although the determination of the lord of the nativity is stated in the Porphyry text itself to be especially difficult. The determination of the domicile master of the nativity is based on a predomination (epikratēsis) argument—that is, we first have to determine which of the two lights is better positioned in the nativity according to several specified criteria. The domicile master of the nativity is then taken as the domicile lord of the image occupied by this light..."

dd78
01-25-2018, 06:31 PM
If a planet is in a cadent Whole Sign house, then the planet is in a place that is not conducive to the conduct of its business.
Cadent Houses = 3,6,9,12




But if a planet is in 3rd house AND within 15 degrees from IC it`s considered angular = fit to conduct it`s business, anyway?

How about retrograde planets?


Thank you for the links, a lot of interesting information there :smile:

dd78
01-25-2018, 06:53 PM
NAUTICAL METAPHOR

The ship itself is the native’s life as represented by the Predominator – for you, the Moon

The first and second Trigon aka Triplicity Lords of the Predominator are the Winds that carry the ship to its destiny.

The third Trigon aka Triplicity Lord symbolizes the oars that move the ship.

Oikodespotes aka Domicile Master of the chart is the ship owner and sets the agenda or destiny for the native BUT under the restrictions set by the bound ruler of the Predominator. Your Oikodespotes is your Moon whose bound ruler is Venus

Kurios aka Lord of the nativity is the Captain of the ship aka Executor aka the one responsible to bring the ship to the destination set by Oikodespotes aka Domicile Master.


The Ascendant sign is the “helm” of the ship and represents the physical life.

Domicile Lord of the Ascendant – Saturn – is the Helmsman or the First Officer of the ship.

Lot of Fortune represents everything that befalls the native that is not of his or her own doing.

Domicile Lord of the Lot of Fortune – the Sun – represents the man on the prow of the ship aka Second Officer who is on the look out for things/events that are going to befall the native.

It is important that the Lord of the Lot of Fortune – in this case the Sun - be able to communicate with the Domicile Master – Moon – and the Ascendant/Helmsman – Saturn - Lord of the nativity aka Kurios – i.e. Venus.

Can they communicate? Well, Sun opposes Moon: Moon and Venus are squared by Saturn. Sun and Saturn are sextile by Sign. There is communication :smile:



Thank you for this great info :smile:
In my chart Jupiter is the Oikodespotes,
Jupiter is 32*20 away from the predominator (Ascendant)
does semi-sextile with such an orb count?

JUPITERASC
01-25-2018, 08:29 PM
But if a planet is in 3rd house
AND
within 15 degrees from IC
it`s considered angular = fit to conduct it`s business, anyway?


The idea you are referring to
is
that a planet within five degrees of the next house cusp
is read as being in the next house
and
it has to do with the different ways of dividing the quadrants into houses.
i.e. there are more than thirty or forty different house systems today :smile:

HOWEVER
as tsmall has often remarked
the entire problem is eliminated when you use whole signs for a house system.
The angles remain the same
the distance from the angles determines whether a planet is strong, advancing, or cadent.
And the house cusps are particularly sensitive points in the houses
that's because as dr.farr frequently explains
the meaning of the word "cusp" has changed
i.e.



Cusps:

Today (and for the past thousand years or so) we define cusps as "borders" (coasts), but that is not the original meaning of the word "cusp": it means "point" such as cuspal teeth (bicuspids) and the point of a sword-so originally the term cusp meant the "point" of something, and in astrology originally the "cusp" of the house meant its "point"; now, when quadrant systems were developed, this "point" of the house came to mean its "beginning", which later came to mean its "border", ie, the "border" between one house and the other. And later astrology also began using these "borders" (cusps) for various prognostic applications (Charles Carter came to believe that, for timing of events, the "cusps" of the Campanus house system gave the best results, among the various quadrant house systems)

But now notice this: in whole sign the cusps are NOT the 0 degree "borders" of sign/houses at all, and never were so regarded! In whole sign, the "cusp" retained its original meaning, not as a "border" but rather as A POINT-and that POINT (cusp) for EACH house, was the sensitive point of that house, viz, the sensitive point in whole sign houses-each house-that is the "cusp" of each house-is a direct projection from the ascending degree.
Example:
-the ascending degree of a chart is 18 Taurus: what are the house cusps (sensitive points, original meaning of the word "cusp") in the whole sign houses of this chart?
Cusp of 1st house = 18 Taurus
Cusp of 2nd house = 18 Gemini
Cusp of 3rd house = 18 Cancer
Cusp of 4th house = 18 Leo
Cusp of 5th house = 18 Virgo
Cusp of 6th house = 18 Libra
Cusp of 7th house = 18 Scorpio
Cusp of 8th house = 18 Sagittarius
Cusp of 9th house = 18 Capricorn
Cusp of 10th house = 18 Aquarius
Cusp of 11th house = 18 Pisces
Cusp of 12th house = 18 Aries

Now it is these "cusps" (sensitive degrees, original meaning of the word "cusp" as a "point") that are (and were) used for progressions, timing of events, etc, and the fact is that they work for these purposes, quite well (in expert hands)
Whole sign does not use the BORDERS between houses (always 0 degree of any sign) for anything, but it DOES use "cusps" (points in the house, projected from the exact ascending degree) for timing (and other) delineative purposes.

Whole sign suddenly vanished (both in the West and in Vedic astrology) during the same period of time-ie, late 8th to early 9th century-this sudden disappearance suggests a sudden turn in astrological thinking and practices, rather than a gradual supplanting of a less effective traditional method (whole sign) by a new and more effective method (rheotrius/alchabitius in the West, and the closely related to whole sign Equal house, in Vedic astrology)

I quite agree with Waybread in the statement, "so what?" (if old time astrologers did or didn't do something) For me, there is only 1 reason I switched to whole sign-it worked better (FOR ME) I could care less if it were the oldest house system (which it is) or whether it was invented by Badda Bing at Barney's Beanery in Bayonne, 10 years ago: only things I consider are:
-does it seem to make sense?
-does it "taste good" to me (ie, does it "feel right" to me)
-and, if yes to the above, does it work (producing delineations and predicitions) better than what I have previously been doing?
Well, whole sign did all that, for me, so I switched; but I am not going to try to convince anyone of anything about it, except for beginners-to you who might just be starting out, I would say: try whole sign first, and see how well it might work for you...



How about retrograde planets?


Thank you for the links, a lot of interesting information there :smile:
Using WHOLE SIGN HOUSES
any retrograde planet is retrograde in a SIGN
Originally, the words "houses" and "signs" were interchangeable.

A planet in the SIGN of Aries was also a planet in the HOUSE of Aries
so that in effect there were no real houses as we know them today.

dd78
01-26-2018, 01:34 PM
The idea you are referring to
is
that a planet within five degrees of the next house cusp
is read as being in the next house
:smile:

HOWEVER
as tsmall has often remarked
the entire problem is eliminated when you use whole signs for a house system.
The angles remain the same
the distance from the angles determines whether a planet is strong, advancing, or cadent.


Thank you for clarification, I meant 3rd house whole sign, my IC is within boundaries of 3rd house/sign from AC.

I get it now - it`s 15 degrees counterclockwise or 5 degrees clockwise from the angle.

Can cadency be alleviated by other factors?

JUPITERASC
01-26-2018, 01:48 PM
Thank you for clarification, I meant 3rd house whole sign, my IC is within boundaries of 3rd house/sign from AC.

I get it now - it`s 15 degrees counterclockwise or 5 degrees clockwise from the angle.

Can cadency be alleviated by other factors?

Hellenistic astrologers place the planet firmly in a particular house
"a planet in 3rd house" is therefore in 3rd WHOLESIGN HOUSE :smile:
for clarification post your chart if you would like to

waybread
01-26-2018, 06:44 PM
Actually a lot of people in ancient times did not know their own birth times. Ptolemy in Tetrabiblos complained about the inaccuracy of time keeping in the 2nd century CE. Vettius Valens gave a couple of methods for estimating the birth time based on other chart factors. Street fair astrologers probably looked at the person's physical appearance and went with that. Manilius (1st century CE) had a kind of fanciful way to predict someone's occupation according to the rising constellation or asterism at birth; but it does suggest that, if the rising constellation or asterism were observed or could be mathematically calculated, you could at least estimate a rising sign. His method seems a bit like the ancient Egyptian method of time-telling, which was based on a fixed star clock and calendar.

Accordingly, Ptolemy scarcely used houses. He didn't mention most of them by name. Valens thought that the part of fortune was highly influential, but if you look at how he used it, it went by sign, not by degree.

If you look at Neugebauer and Van Hoesen, Greek Horoscopes (available as a Google Book) you will see their calculations for dating preserved horoscopes: some for literary sources like Valens, some for archaeological records. A few give ascendant degrees, but not the majority.

I actually don't know how the ancients handled what became our modern problem of time zones, but I believe that each place would have gone by its own local time. This was common throughout the world until the late 19th century, when times were standardized to facilitate train timetables.

dd78
01-26-2018, 07:32 PM
for clarification post your chart if you would like to


thank you,
I won`t post my chart, but I can attach a snip from Astrofox 8.0 :smile:
(available here: http://af.cpptea.com/astrofox.php )

JUPITERASC
01-26-2018, 07:33 PM
Actually a lot of people in ancient times did not know their own birth times.

Actually, in ancient times the vast majority were unable to afford an astrologer :smile:
Astrologers had wealthy patrons
and those wealthy patrons did know their own birth data
as it was well documented

Astrology in ancient times was not for "the masses"
Obviously, today we have online astrological forums
offering random observations on natal charts
from a mix of unskilled newcomers to astrology
as well as more seasoned amateurs
Few if any professional astrologers frequent online forums
for example
Chris Brennan is a professional astrologer who is a member of our forum
who rarely, if ever posts
instead
we have keen newcomers to astrology
eager to learn by practice
and
that was not on offer in the 2nd Century C.E.


Ptolemy in Tetrabiblos complained about the inaccuracy of time keeping in the 2nd century CE.

Vettius Valens gave a couple of methods for estimating the birth time based on other chart factors.

VETTIUS VALENS THE ANTHOLOGY has detailed methodology
for finding the Ascendant http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/vettius%20valens%20entire.pdf
best understood by reading the entire text
FREE ONLINE at the foregoing link


Street fair astrologers probably looked at the person's physical appearance and went with that. Manilius (1st century CE) had a kind of fanciful way to predict someone's occupation according to the rising constellation or asterism at birth; but it does suggest that, if the rising constellation or asterism were observed or could be mathematically calculated, you could at least estimate a rising sign. His method seems a bit like the ancient Egyptian method of time-telling, which was based on a fixed star clock and calendar.

Accordingly, Ptolemy scarcely used houses. He didn't mention most of them by name. Valens thought that the part of fortune was highly influential, but if you look at how he used it, it went by sign, not by degree.

If you look at Neugebauer and Van Hoesen, Greek Horoscopes (available as a Google Book) you will see their calculations for dating preserved horoscopes: some for literary sources like Valens, some for archaeological records. A few give ascendant degrees, but not the majority.

I actually don't know how the ancients handled what became our modern problem of time zones, but I believe that each place would have gone by its own local time. This was common throughout the world until the late 19th century, when times were standardized to facilitate train timetables.

JUPITERASC
01-26-2018, 07:54 PM
thank you,
I won`t post my chart, but I can attach a snip from Astrofox 8.0 :smile:
(available here: http://af.cpptea.com/astrofox.php )
That link to Astrofox does not work
however I have viewed your chart on another thread
and it seems you have three planets in 3rd house

keep in mind that
As you posted your question on the Traditional Board
the outers are of no significance
so we just focus on the seven classical planets
i.e.
Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn
of which - in your natal chart - five are located in cadent houses

waybread
01-26-2018, 08:05 PM
One book I highly recommend for anyone who still imagines that ancient astrology belonged just to the elite and wealthy is Frederick Cramer, Astrology in Roman Law and Politics, published in the Memoirs of the American Philosophical Society. Cramer was a classics professor who exhaustively studied extant Roman legal documents and ancient writers' comments on astrology, notably because astrologers were banned from Rome at different times. The legal documents and non-astrologers' writings give a lot of information about how astrology was practiced in ancient Rome.

No, ancient Hellenistic astrology was not just for the elite. It was popular among the masses. It was even practiced by slaves and in street fairs.

In Hellenized Egypt, astrology was practiced by priests, which is why Franz Cumont thought that Firmicus Maternus was either an Egyptian priest himself, or had access to their secret practices.

Cramer gives example after example. See also Tamsyn Barton, Ancient Astrology.

dd78
01-26-2018, 08:07 PM
That link to Astrofox does not work

You need to provide appropriate data on this page: http://af.cpptea.com/astrofox.php?dat=5

It`s an open forum and anybody (incl. guests) could check my sensitive data if I provided a link to my chart :smile:
And several users on this forum have already tried to get my data. for reasons unknown to me:surprised:


however I have viewed your chart on another thread
and you have planets in 6th, 9th and 12th houses
keep in mind that
As you posted your question on the Traditional Board
the outers are of no significance
so we just focus on the seven classical planets
i.e.
Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn
of which - in your natal chart - five are located in cadent houses


Yes, only Mercury, Mars and Saturn are angular.

Other planets are in 6th, 12th and 3rd houses, so I`m doomed :sad:

JUPITERASC
01-26-2018, 08:13 PM
You need to provide appropriate data on this page: http://af.cpptea.com/astrofox.php?dat=5

It`s an open forum and anybody (incl. guests) could check my sensitive data
if I provided a link to my chart :smile:
And several users on this forum
have already tried to get my data.
for reasons unknown to me:surprised:

Yes, only Mercury, Mars and Saturn are angular.

Other planets are in 6th, 12th and 3rd houses, so I`m doomed :sad:
That website looks useful, thanks :smile:
I edited my post
because
I had the impression from another thread
that your chart has three planets in third house?

JUPITERASC
01-26-2018, 08:19 PM
One book I highly recommend for anyone who still imagines that ancient astrology belonged just to the elite and wealthy is Frederick Cramer, Astrology in Roman Law and Politics, published in the Memoirs of the American Philosophical Society. Cramer was a classics professor who exhaustively studied extant Roman legal documents and ancient writers' comments on astrology, notably because astrologers were banned from Rome at different times. The legal documents and non-astrologers' writings give a lot of information about how astrology was practiced in ancient Rome.

No, ancient Hellenistic astrology was not just for the elite. It was popular among the masses. It was even practiced by slaves and in street fairs.

In Hellenized Egypt, astrology was practiced by priests, which is why Franz Cumont thought that Firmicus Maternus was either an Egyptian priest himself, or had access to their secret practices.

Cramer gives example after example. See also Tamsyn Barton, Ancient Astrology.
That's the equivalent of free online forums and newspaper and magazine columns today :smile:
Even today many cannot afford to pay for a professional reading
hence the popularity of forums such as ours
which encourage all and sundry to provide an opinion
irrespective of knowledge and experience

Most opt for computer printout "cookbook" delineation
far removed from for example
a professional reading from Benjamin Dykes for example

dd78
01-26-2018, 08:28 PM
That website looks useful, thanks :smile:
I edited my post
because
I had the impression from another thread
that your chart has three planets in third house?




You have good memory :smile:
Yes, Venus-Sun are in 3rd,
third planet is Uranus and he doesn`t count here on traditional forum

You can check house positions in the table I attached in my previous post:smile:

JUPITERASC
01-26-2018, 09:02 PM
You have good memory :smile:
Yes, Venus-Sun are in 3rd,
third planet is Uranus and he doesn`t count here on traditional forum

You can check house positions in the table I attached in my previous post:smile:
Thanks for the confirmation :smile:
So you have Moon and Jupiter Cadent as well

dd78
01-26-2018, 09:05 PM
Most opt for computer printout "cookbook" delineation
far removed from for example
a professional reading from Benjamin Dykes for example

I don`t opt for "cookbook" delineation myself anymore for it usually prooves worth very little, if not nothing.
But I also can`t afford a professional reading, so I decided to learn more about astrology myself;

And it`s only possible thank to many professionals here:smile:

I can only show you my appreciation by providing you and other users with feedback, additional info etc.

Your contribution here is priceless !
Thank you so much!

dd78
01-26-2018, 09:07 PM
Thanks for the confirmation :smile:
So you have Moon and Jupiter Cadent as well

Yes, cadent and fixed

JUPITERASC
01-26-2018, 09:13 PM
I don`t opt for "cookbook" delineation myself anymore for it usually prooves worth very little, if not nothing.
But I also can`t afford a professional reading, so I decided to learn more about astrology myself;

And it`s only possible thank to many professionals here:smile:

I can only show you my appreciation by providing you and other users with feedback, additional info etc.

Your contribution here is priceless !
Thank you so much!
Thank you very much dd78 - feedback is so important :smile:
for example
few, if any on our forum are HELLENISTIC astrology professionals
we are all learners here
and feedback supports the learning process

JUPITERASC
01-26-2018, 09:19 PM
Yes, cadent and fixed


Earlier on this thread I posted that
if a planet in a whole sign house
is configured to the ascendant
and/or
aspects the ascendant by whole sign
- then the planet is said to manifest its favorable significations to the native.
i.e.
if a planet is in house 1/3/4/5/7/9/10/11
then that planet can manifest its favorable significations to the native
and so
SUN VENUS conjunction in 3rd house can potentially manifest favorable significations to you :smile:

OBVIOUSLY HOWEVER
IF
planets in 1/3/4/5/7/9/10/11 are not in good condition
for any reason
then that is modified

JUPITERASC
01-26-2018, 09:23 PM
I also mentioned earlier :smile:
that
If a planet is in a whole sign house in aversion to the ascendant
- i.e. houses 2/6/8/12
- then the planet is said
to manifest its unfavorable significations to the native.

Moon and Jupiter therefore
according to HELLENISTIC astrology
do not aspect the ascendant of your natal chart
therefore
Moon and Jupiter potentially manifest unfavorable significations in this natal chart

JUPITERASC
01-26-2018, 09:39 PM
You also asked


How about retrograde planets?

Thank you for the links, a lot of interesting information there :smile:
ROBERT SCHMIDT of PROJECT HINDSIGHT states :smile:
http://www.projecthindsight.com/index1.html
as mentioned earlier on this thread

When a planet is in the interval of first station to second station
i.e. retrograde
the planet is not fit to conduct its business
because
it is described as “walking backwards”.

so do read the thread thoroughly
and you shall find answers to your questions there

dd78
01-28-2018, 08:25 PM
I also mentioned earlier :smile:
that
If a planet is in a whole sign house in aversion to the ascendant
- i.e. houses 2/6/8/12
- then the planet is said
to manifest its unfavorable significations to the native.

Moon and Jupiter therefore
according to HELLENISTIC astrology
do not aspect the ascendant of your natal chart
therefore
Moon and Jupiter potentially manifest unfavorable significations in this natal chart



Thank you for clarification :smile:
Jupiter is in semisextile to AC (28*20 degrees),
semisextile counts for hellenistic delineations as mentioned earlier, but I`m not sure if the orb isn`t too wide ?

And Moon is definitely unfavorable, I can`t deny it, but Jupiter definitely not. Unless constant over-doing and exaggeration counts :unsure:
Generally I would consider his influence as favourable, anyway.
Jupiter is also the only planet above horizon in my chart and also essentially strongest.

Jupiter is the Oikodespotes and mutually receives and trines Mercury, who is:
- Kurios,
- Domicile Lord of the Lot of Fortune
- Domicile Lord of the Ascendant
- Overseer

:surprised::surprised::surprised:

As for Venus, I don`t think she is in such a bad condition in reality - I have many venusian talents, and venusian activities come to me naturally and I tend to be successful without any effort in such stuff.
Unfortunately natural venusian rulerships - 2nd and 7th houses are both debilitated to say the least.

dd78
01-28-2018, 08:34 PM
You also asked

ROBERT SCHMIDT of PROJECT HINDSIGHT states :smile:
http://www.projecthindsight.com/index1.html
as mentioned earlier on this thread

When a planet is in the interval of first station to second station
i.e. retrograde
the planet is not fit to conduct its business
because
it is described as “walking backwards”.

so do read the thread thoroughly
and you shall find answers to your questions there


Thank you, I will re-read it.
Anyway, If my AC was e.g. in scorpio, I would probably be a movie star or a famous top-level athlete :pinched:

dd78
02-06-2018, 04:10 PM
Are the above Hellennistic delineations allowed to be compared/used with e.g. Dodecatemoria?:unsure:

JUPITERASC
02-06-2018, 06:05 PM
Are the above Hellennistic delineations allowed to be compared/used with e.g. Dodecatemoria?:unsure:

Definition
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/dodekatemorion.html


Konrad, closed his account on our forum, but is a member of Skyscript
where he participates in an illuminating discussion on this topic
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8999&highlight=dodek


discussion - what role does dodecatamoiria and moiria play in Hellenistic :smile:
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5202&highlight=

dd78
02-06-2018, 06:46 PM
Definition
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/dodekatemorion.html


Konrad, closed his account on our forum, but is a member of Skyscript
where he participates in an illuminating discussion on this topic
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8999&highlight=dodek


discussion - what role does dodecatamoiria and moiria play in Hellenistic :smile:
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5202&highlight=

Thank you :smile:!
I stumbled upon this concept on www.sevenstarsastrology.com, (http://www.sevenstarsastrology.com,)
and I`ve just calculated my dodecatamoiria chart thank to Kaktuzz`s website (www.astro-seek.com (http://www.astro-seek.com)).
Synastry with my natal chart looks pretty intriguing to me.
I haven`t seen more dodecatamoiria to natal synastries than those provided as examples at sevenstarsastrology.com.

But it seems that mid degrees of Scorpio are like a Mantra: they just keep repeating themselves on various occasions in my life, anyway :surprised:

tsmall
02-10-2018, 02:59 AM
I'm not sure how I feel about deleting off topic comments on a post I started so many years ago, but there you have it. Keep to the topic, please and thank you.

Tamara

dd78
02-10-2018, 02:34 PM
I'm not sure how I feel about deleting off topic comments on a post I started so many years ago, but there you have it. Keep to the topic, please and thank you.

Tamara

sorry, I won`t post anymore.

JUPITERASC
05-08-2018, 01:48 PM
For those beginners who have often wondered
how to delineate Profections
The following video by Chris Brennan :smile:
illustrates how to apply Vettius Valens Time Lord Technique known as PROFECTION
to any natal chart https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBwf...ature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBwfIMnBKZk&feature=youtu.be)

dd78
05-11-2018, 08:46 PM
For those beginners who have often wondered
how to delineate Profections
The following video by Chris Brennan :smile:
illustrates how to apply Vettius Valens Time Lord Technique known as PROFECTION
to any natal chart https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBwf...ature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBwfIMnBKZk&feature=youtu.be)


Thank you very much for this valuable link, Jupiterasc :smile:

JUPITERASC
05-11-2018, 08:56 PM
Thank you very much for this valuable link, Jupiterasc :smile:


Happy it is of value and use to you :smile:
and here's another you may appreciate
this time on essential dignities
and
how ESSENTIAL DIGNITIES & DEBILITIES are used
to determine the condition of a planet in an astrological chart.

recent - just published 10 May 2018
discusses
ESSENTIAL DIGNITIES and DEBILITIES in Traditional Astrology
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVz6xT7yHDs
it's episode 156 of Astrology Podcast
Charles Obert discussing in detail essential dignities
and debilities

dd78
05-11-2018, 09:40 PM
Happy it is of value and use to you :smile:



Very much. Thank you :smile:


and here's another you may appreciate
this time on essential dignities
and
how ESSENTIAL DIGNITIES & DEBILITIES are used
to determine the condition of a planet in an astrological chart.

recent - just published 10 May 2018
discusses
ESSENTIAL DIGNITIES and DEBILITIES in Traditional Astrology
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVz6xT7yHDs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVz6xT7yHDs)
it's episode 156 of Astrology Podcast
Charles Obert discussing in detail essential dignities
and debilities


I`ve already downloaded a bunch of podcast episodes and have been listening to them since yesterday evening :smile:
And I`m going to download this one right away, thank you :smile:

petosiris
06-12-2018, 06:46 PM
I am not sure if this is the correct place to post this question (so if it needs to be moved?)

With all the current interest in Hellenistic methods, how exactly does one go about delineating a chart using Hellenistic astrology?

https://i.imgur.com/jvxsJCu.png

(Sidereal, Topocentric with dodecatemoria, nonagesimal MC)

Investigating the 71st year (70 years) of Donald Trump, variety of methods

I. Seven Ages of Man according to Ptolemy
Saturn - Late Old Age - Death
Jupiter - Early Old Age - 67
Mars - Late Adulthood - 55
Sun - Early Adulthood - 40
Venus - Youth - 21
Mercury - Childhood - 13
Moon - Infancy - 3

Donald Trump is the oldest president elected in US history. Saturn is of the sect, above the horizon, in the XI image of the Good Daimon, in its triplicity and bound and ruled by Mercury, who is in its domicile, Venus bound, triplicity and degree. Thus the method of Ptolemy gives good results for this nativity (which is more of an argument for taking into account age regardless).

Circumambulation of the Predominator according to the Old Astrologers
The Sun is Predominator. In the 71st year it is distributing to Saturn (which is operative and inclining towards beneficence) and is joining the hexagon ray of Jupiter. Thus it also gives good results for this nativity.

II. Winds according to the Old Astrologers
This nativity is wealth-producing and imperious, with power over life and death for the Sun, the Moon, the Preceding New Moon, Fortune, Daimon and Foundation are all angular, and furthermore the ruler of the Moon is angular and with Regulus which is rising, while the trigon rulers of the Lightbringer are angular after the 38th year, for that is the rising time of inoperative Venus, which is also trigon ruler of the II - wealth, IV - property, the Moon, X - rank and VIII - property.

He was wealthy from the beginning because of his father (Sun to Saturn) - IV, Virgo, Mercury and the Sun trine Jupiter. He inherited the property business of his father - X from Virgo, and right around the time of the 38th year, he completed the construction of the Trump Tower. In the following years he amassed wealth, signified by the rulers of II and VIII and the overall eminence and by the times.

He has 2 angular triplicity rulers, thus it also gives good results for this nativity.

III. 129 Years according to the Exaltation Method of Balbilus, the Days of the Moon and the Times of the Images
The Predominator is the main Releaser, as in the circumambulation. Every star allots its recurrence years. But if the stars should not be upon the degrees of their exaltations, it will be necessary to substract as many days as there are years, by image, as many months. Thus the Sun here allots 19 years - 19 months, Mercury allots 20 years - 60 months, Saturn allots 30 years - 120 months, Mars allots 15 years - 75 months and Jupiter - 12 years - 24 months. One can further divide each time into 129 parts as many times as necessary.
17.4166667 years - Sun
15 years - Mercury
20 years - Saturn
8.75 years - Mars
10 years - Jupiter
----------------------
71st - Jupiter and Mars - harmonious, like-ascending with reception, these two stars together grant power over life and death, operative and benefic period, thus it also gives good results for this nativity.

To find the third, seventh and fortieth day of the Moon, examine the II, IV and VII from the Moon. Now the fortieth day rules the later part of life, here in Taurus, exaltation, hexagon Venus and trine Jupiter. It is however square Mars, although inferior. Thus it gives mediocre results.

The VI, VII and VIII signify the time around old age. Thus it also gives mediocre results, for although the rulers are well placed and operative, the seventh is opposed by Mars, the malefic contrary to the sect (although ruled by good rulers, it is also contrary to horizon, gender, season and within two images of its depression - it is however much more productive than Venus, which is the worst star in the nativity).

IV. Recurrence Years and Rising Times, 9 years according to Zoroaster and Nechepso, 28 years according to Critodemus, Operative Years according to Vettius Valens

Only the sum of Gemini and Scorpio are operative. But those signs are unconfigured except through like-ascension, so basically nothing in particular is shown by this technique. Valens advises to divide each rising time in thirds or half and sum up them instead. I will skip those.

Find the Ruler of the Moon and allot 9 years for every sign ruler upwards. Mars rules 9 years, then Jupiter, then Saturn. Mercury rules until 72, thus this method provides good results.

According to Critodemus, find the ruler of the degree of the Moon and count upwards. The first degree is assigned to the domicile ruler, then the next 29 degrees (monomoiria) in the seven-zone, also called descending Chaldean order. Every star, beginning from the ruler of the Moon, allots this many years:
Saturn - 7
Jupiter - 6
Mars - 5
Sun - 4
Venus - 3
Mercury - 2
Moon - 1

After one cycle of 28 years is completed, we start from the star after the ruler. In this nativity we begin from Saturn, at the 57th year from Venus, thus Jupiter rules the 71st year. This method also gives good results for this nativity.

The 71st year is also not associated with any interval, however several numerical methods are as follows (using ordinal numbers)
Saturn is operative every four years for 4 + 5 + 6 + 7 + 8 = 30
Jupiter is operative every three years for 3 + 4 + 5 = 12
Mars is operative every four years for 4 + 5 + 6 = 15
Sun is operative every nine years for 9 + 10 = 19
Venus is operative every eight years for 8 = 8
Mercury is operative every two years for 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 6 = 20
Moon is operative every three years for 3 + 4 + 5 + 6 + 7 = 25

Thus:
Saturn - every 4, 30, 57
Jupiter - every 3, 12, 79
Mars - every 4, 15, 66
Sun - every 9, 19, 120
Venus - every 8, 82
Mercury - every 2, 20, 76
Moon - every 3, 25, 108

V. Profections
We investigate the eleventh profection cycle. He became exalted and king of kings in the 71st year, because the Sun and the Moon transmit to Jupiter, while the Hour-Marker transmits to Mercury and Saturn, the most well placed stars in the nativity. Venus also transmits to the Sun, Fortune, Daimon and MC to Jupiter, only the Mars transmission to Gemini is malefic.
Thus, this also provides good results.

According to the King (for monthly profection), count the distance from the Sun at the time to the Moon at the nativity and the same distance from the Hour-Marker. Virgo is the operative month with Mercury as ruler, thus it provides good results for this nativity.

VI. Revolutions - The solar revolution is not as good as expected - only Mars at an angle, Lot with Saturn. In the lunar revolution preceding the election, the angles are well and Jupiter is rising, with the Sun and Mercury in the post-ascension, which signifies the first days of the month. Thus they give ok results.

VII. Transits - Saturn is transiting the Moon and the angles along with Mercury, Jupiter and Venus are operative, and the latter is sending trine ray to the Ascendant. Thus they give ok results.

It would be interesting to see how the tropical chart fares with these methods.

sea_of_qi
06-13-2018, 02:07 AM
https://i.imgur.com/jvxsJCu.png

(Sidereal, Topocentric with dodecatemoria, nonagesimal MC)

Investigating the 71st year (70 years) of Donald Trump, variety of methods

.......

It would be interesting to see how the tropical chart fares with these methods.

Wow, that is nice! Thank you. I like a thorough delineation.

petosiris
06-17-2018, 09:14 PM
''In every case it is necessary to take the distance from the sun’s degree-position to the moon’s in the order of the signs using the rising times<?>, and to mark the resulting number of degrees as the solar gnomon. Next consult the table of rising times under the klima of the nativity and see what fraction is entered at the sun’s degree-position. (This is for day births; for night births, look at the point in opposition to the sun.) Multiply this by 12; then multiply the result by the hour of the day at the delivery. If the result exceeds 360°, subtract 360° and see if the remainder corresponds to the previously determined gnomon. If it does, the hour which was reported will be accurate and should be used. If, however, the remainder greatly exceeds the solar gnomon, subtract from the <reported> Ascendant an amount equal to the excess. (Do this by figuring what fraction the excess is of the <hourly> magnitude, and subtract that.) If the solar gnomon is greater, add to the <reported> Ascendant an amount corresponding to the excess. Then determine the fraction <of the hour> and enter the table of rising times. Continue by calculating the full hours and the fraction. Add the years and note at what degree of the zodiac the enklima falls. Consider that point to be the real Ascendant. Thrasyllus used this method, made a scientific beginning, and fashioned a forecast of the end.'' - Valens, translated by Riley - http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/vettius%20valens%20entire.pdf

I am going to use Trump's chart to illustrate this somewhat complex method.

1) We determine the ascensional degrees from the Sun to the Moon. We mark 221.5 as the solar gnomon.
2) We determine the ascensional degrees the Sun itself has accumulated (for night - the degree opposite). This is about 26.
3) We multiply 26 by 12 and again by the hour of the nativity, to the minute. He is born at the 5th hour, which lasts from 10:25 until 11:39.
4) 26 x 12 x 5.3919* - 4 x 360 = 242.2728, which exceeds the solar gnomon, thus we need to subtract some 5 minutes from the birth time (26 x 12 x 5.3243 - 4 x 360 = 221.1816) to get the ''real'' Ascendant according to Thrasyllus. Perhaps more precise work with the hours and the ascensional degrees of the Sun would make it 3-5 minutes away.

*If fraction of the hour meant not taking the ordinal number, it would be about 4.3919. But in that case the birth time would have to be rectified by 15 minutes. In any case, I would group this rectification method along with the conceptional chart as ''rectifications that have to be'' - because they do not allow for certain birth times.
**There are certain charts from the Hellenistic period that say that a planet is at 30 degrees and certain minutes - for example 30° 45''. This is what makes it ambiguous in this case as well. Perhaps the ''full hours and the fraction'' mean that it takes the full hours and the fraction, as I did, but I am not sure.

petosiris
06-17-2018, 10:21 PM
Nevermind, he would use 4.3919 - ''So, if hour 4 is given, we consider this as 3 hours plus a fraction—not everyone can be born on the stroke of the hour. So, if hour 4 is given, we consider this as 3 hours plus a fraction—not everyone can be born on the stroke of the hour.'' - http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/vettius%20valens%20entire.pdf He proceeds to give his method for timing twins.

petosiris
07-02-2018, 11:13 AM
https://i.imgur.com/OM8y0cf.png

Another example, with the newly elected Mexican President - https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Lopez_Obrador,_Andres_Manuel

According to the AA source, the birth occurred at 2:00, quite unlikely, like most rounded off births. Let's use Thrasyllus' method again.

1) We determine the ascensional degrees from the Sun to the Moon. We mark 81 as the solar gnomon.
2) We determine the ascensional degrees from the degree opposite the Sun - this is 23.
3) We multiply 23 by 12 and again by the hour of the nativity, with the fractions. Since the birth occurred at the beginning of the ninth hour - 23 x 12 x 8 - 360 x 6 = 48 which is less than the solar gnomon.
4) We add 7 minutes to the time of birth and with 23 x 12 x 8.12 - 360 x 6 = 81 and we get the ''real'' Ascendant.

Jupiter is Lord of the Year and in the place of Good Daimon with Fortune. The Lightbringer also profects to its exaltation. Note that he was not elected with the same profections 12 years ago. Since the Ruler of the Peak was in the place of the Bad Daimon in the 2005 solar revolution, in this Revolution she is with Jupiter to the degree making a phase.

Since the rising time of Libra is 32.5, doubled it makes the stellium operative. And since the rising time of Gemini is 33 and of Virgo is 31.25, it makes the Jupiter square Mars productive of rank, politics and authority (as are the rising times of Virgo and Capricorn for that partile trine). And since half of the rising time of Gemini is 16.5 and 4 times the years of Jupiter = 64.5, it makes it even more operative.

And since the year is multiple of 5, which is the special interval point of Venus (inferior trine), it makes the profection of Jupiter and Fortune even stronger than the last one, and according to Valens ''The configurations of the stars and their aspects with each other (especially the aspects with the Lot of Fortune) are effective in the chronocratorships which are in harmony. (The whole is seen and arises from the aspects of the Lot of Fortune and from its ruler'' - https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/Vettius%20Valens%20entire.pdf

JUPITERASC
07-02-2018, 11:32 AM
Many thanks petosiris :smile:
I have added example rectification you detailed
using THRASYLLUS method
to ongoing RECTIFICATION EXAMPLES thread at https://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=886760#post886760

https://i.imgur.com/OM8y0cf.png

Another example, with the newly elected Mexican President - https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Lopez_Obrador,_Andres_Manuel

According to the AA source, the birth occurred at 2:00, quite unlikely, like most rounded off births. Let's use Thrasyllus' method again.

1) We determine the ascensional degrees from the Sun to the Moon. We mark 81 as the solar gnomon.
2) We determine the ascensional degrees from the degree opposite the Sun - this is 23.
3) We multiply 23 by 12 and again by the hour of the nativity, with the fractions. Since the birth occurred at the beginning of the ninth hour - 23 x 12 x 8 - 360 x 6 = 48 which is less than the solar gnomon.
4) We add 7 minutes to the time of birth and with 23 x 12 x 8.12 - 360 x 6 = 81 and we get the ''real'' Ascendant.

Jupiter is Lord of the Year and in the place of Good Daimon with Fortune. The Lightbringer also profects to its exaltation. Note that he was not elected with the same profections 12 years ago. Since the Ruler of the Peak was in the place of the Bad Daimon in the 2005 solar revolution, in this Revolution she is with Jupiter to the degree making a phase.

Since the rising time of Libra is 32.5, doubled it makes the stellium operative. And since the rising time of Gemini is 33 and of Virgo is 31.25, it makes the Jupiter square Mars productive of rank, politics and authority (as are the rising times of Virgo and Capricorn for that partile trine). And since half of the rising time of Gemini is 16.5 and 4 times the years of Jupiter = 64.5, it makes it even more operative.

And since the year is multiple of 5, which is the special interval point of Venus (inferior trine), it makes the profection of Jupiter and Fortune even stronger than the last one, and according to Valens ''The configurations of the stars and their aspects with each other (especially the aspects with the Lot of Fortune) are effective in the chronocratorships which are in harmony. (The whole is seen and arises from the aspects of the Lot of Fortune and from its ruler'' - https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/Vettius%20Valens%20entire.pdf

petosiris
08-13-2018, 09:50 PM
Cancer Rising, Saturn with Leo, Jupiter with Virgo, Mars with Cancer, Venus with Cancer, Sun with Taurus, Venus with Cancer, Mercury with Taurus, Moon with Aries, Ascending Node with Sagittarius, preceding Full Moon with Scorpio. The native rose from moderate origins to governorship and military strategist, because the rulers of the Lightbringer were rising and culminating.

Aquarius Rising, Saturn with Leo, Jupiter with Virgo, Mars with Scorpio, Sun with Capricorn, Venus with Aquarius, Mercury with Capricorn, Moon with Libra, Ascending Node with Sagittarius, preceding Full Moon with Cancer. He became general officer in the military, for Mars was culminating with the Lot of Fortune and the configurations of benefics.

Hour-Marker at 14 Gemini, Saturn retreating at 25 Gemini, Jupiter retreating at 3 Libra, Mars at 22 Gemini, Sun at 26 Aquarius, Venus at 5 Pisces, Mercury at 14 Pisces, Moon at 29 Taurus, Ascending Node at 2 Gemini, preceding New Moon at 19 Aquarius. The native lived 69 days because the malefics were rising and were operative by year (I mean the Hour-Marker onto itself) and critical day (70 : 10 = 7), and were upon the tenth of the Lot of Fortune, while the Sun, the Moon and the preceding New Moon were inoperative and with malefic bounds. The malefics ruled the decennials.

Hour-Marker at 24 Aries, Saturn at 28 Capricorn, Jupiter at 13 Libra, Mars at 20 Leo, Sun at 23 Libra, Venus at 21 Libra, Mercury retreating at 10 Libra, Moon at 28 Scorpio, Ascending Node at 12 Capricorn, preceding New Moon at 21 Libra. He became a popular astronomer because of the changeable and clever Scales and Mercury and Jupiter rising from the beams. The father was a garment worker on account of Aries and Taurus [1]. He died in the 63rd year because of the Master of the Nativity allotting 57 years [2], the Moon, the profections [3], and the critical year [4].

[1] The Lot of Father and 10th from 4th
[2] Saturn was angular - 57
[3] Moon onto Saturn, Saturn onto Fortune, Mars onto Sun which are doubled because the year is factor of 3
[4] 7 x 9 is the grand climacteric
By decennials using the 365.25 year, Venus distributes to Mars and it to Saturn.

Hour-Marker at 9 Libra, Saturn at 20 Aquarius, Jupiter at 30 Scorpio, Mars at 21 Pisces, Sun at 28 Aquarius, Venus at 30 Capricorn, Mercury at 5 Aquarius, Moon at 11 Libra, Ascending Node at 16 Sagittarius, preceding Full Moon at 24 Leo. The native became a distinguished judge, and he had nine children on account of Children with the prolific Crab [1]. He died in the 80th year because the Releaser reached the ray of Mars within the inoperative Archer, because of the years of the Master of the Nativity [3], and because of the progressions and operative years involving Saturn and Mars*, and because Saturn, the Sun and the Moon were inoperative at the revolution, and because of Jupiter onto Saturn through the method of decennials, and because Mars was walking through the Claws [4].

[1] 10th signifies children in the Hellenistic tradition + the Lot of Children is there as well (Jupiter to Saturn, reverse by night)
[2] Every 4th year and combinations involving 2/3 of the years for example 4 x 30 = 120 x 2/3 = 80, or 8 x 15 = 120 x 2/3 = 80, or the combinations of the aforementioned
[3] Mercury was operative - 76
[4] Another name for Libra