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byjove
12-16-2011, 09:23 PM
Hi,

I did a search for "joys" in all the threads and got nothing, perhaps it's been phrased differently?

Do many modern astrologers here use the joys? How strong do you consider the planetary joys?

e.g.
Domicile
exaltation
joy / triplicity
term
face

something like this? I've just come across a bounty - my 1st ruler which has only two aspects, both of which are strong and harsh, is actually in joy...so 1st ruler in joy opposing an exalted planet and both square a third planet. Many the chart ruler has some saving grace......

RaptInReverie
12-16-2011, 09:29 PM
I observe planetary Joys and consider them to be important elements in a chart.

Rebel Uranian
12-16-2011, 09:34 PM
There are a lot of "Joys" from what I've read. By Joys do you mean this?

h1 - Saturn
h2 - Jupiter
h3 - Mars
h4 - Sun
h5 - Venus
h6 - Mercury
h7 - Moon
h8 - Saturn
h9 - Jupiter
h10 - Mars
h11 - Sun
h12 - Venus

...Probably not, because there are a billion house-based Joy systems. I've heard Venus is in the 12th and Saturn in both the 1st and 8th so I inferred this.

Do you mean the first paragraph of this (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/dictionary/joy.php)? I can hardly read that. Does Venus Joy Saturn only in Venus's signs or also in Saturn's signs? "Also when the Moon or Mars are in their respective Signs or Triplicities." ...What? Also, aren't triplicities only supposed to apply to the day/night rulers of triplicites, such as the Sun in Saggi or the Moon in Cappy, not Jupiter or the Moon in Scorpio?

byjove
12-16-2011, 09:38 PM
Well in the title I have planetary joys, and I could be wrong but I thought there was only one dominant system today and I have only witnessed one used by traditional astrologers - the one William Lilly uses.


Planet Joy
Mercury 1st
Moon 3rd
Venus 5th
Mars 6th
Sun 9th
Jupiter 11th
Saturn 12th

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/horary1e.html

RaptInReverie
12-16-2011, 09:38 PM
Yes, I adhere to the traditional Joys that byjove listed above.

byjove
12-16-2011, 09:40 PM
wow we're typing and responding within the same minute lol

I was just about to edit my previous post and ask you how high a dignity do you consider it? Maybe not on par with domicile, maybe not exaltation, maybe on rank with triplicity or what do you think?

RaptInReverie
12-16-2011, 09:50 PM
In special cases these can overlap. For instance, I have Mercury in Virgo in the 1st House. It's Rx though.

Rebel Uranian
12-16-2011, 10:32 PM
How many points is a Joy?

Lilly proposed certain Houses as joys for the planets too. For example Saturn rejoices in the First House, because "he is the first among the planets" (according to the Chaldean Order (http://www.astrologycom.com/glossc.html)). Hellenic Astrology featured a different, House-based system, now recognised due to recent translations of ancient works. Rarely used in modern astrology.

http://www.astrologycom.com/glossj.html

dr. farr
12-17-2011, 05:01 AM
Manilius (14 AD) gave much importance to the planetary joys (actually though he attributed the 4th house to Saturn's joy; Valens and subsequent Hellenists moved this to the 12th; I myself consider BOTH 4 and 12 to be joys of Saturn)

Manilius and Valens (and other Hellenists) give the following as the other planetary joys:
Mercury joys in 1st
Moon joys in 3rd
Venus joys in the 10th
Mars joys in the 6th
Jupiter joys in the 11th
Sun joys in the 9th

As I have posted elsewhere, I just give either +1 or -1 for any and all essential and accidental dignities/debilities' however, using the 1 to 5 points scoring method, in my opinion a planetary joy would be
a) an accidental dignity
...and
b) likely given a +3 score.

Opposite houses constitue the planetary "sorrows" (according to later Hellenists and early Islamic-transitional era authors)
Mercury sorrows in the 7th
Moon sorrows in the 9th
(Saturn sorrows in the 10th and/or Saturn sorrows in the 6th)
Mars sorrows in the 12th
Jupiter sorrows in the 5th
Sun sorrows in the 3rd
Venus sorrows in the 4th

These would be regarded as accidental detriments (and probably scored in the 1-5 point scoring method as -3)

byjove
12-17-2011, 10:47 AM
So at least a planet can be saved from peregrination with Joy?

And yes, I was just wondering would there be a sorrow lol.

I don't have this case, but just to test importance, what if one had a planet in joy but out of sect? Or in sorrow but in sect? Just mixed dignity or one overcomes the other?

RaptInReverie
12-17-2011, 12:22 PM
Please explain how Saturn finds its Joy in the 4th House.

Moog
12-17-2011, 01:01 PM
So at least a planet can be saved from peregrination with Joy?

And yes, I was just wondering would there be a sorrow lol.

I don't have this case, but just to test importance, what if one had a planet in joy but out of sect?

I've wondered that. The joy schema that you linked above connects the planets with the sect concept in that the day sect planets find their joys in houses above the earth, and night sect planets find them under the earth.

Or in sorrow but in sect? Just mixed dignity or one overcomes the other?I think with a lot of these questions you either need to find an authority who knows, or examine a lot of charts with these ideas in mind and see what seems to correlate. Or both.

I might adress some of these questions to a friend of mine who is very well read in the old stuff.

Maybe we could find examples of out of sect planets also in their joys in celebrity charts. I might see what I can rustle up later.

Edit: I didn't see Dr. Farr's post, thanks for that... very interesting.

Rebel Uranian
12-17-2011, 04:09 PM
Please explain how Saturn finds its Joy in the 4th House.

Please do 'cuz I have it and I think Saturn would be much more useful in the 10th house of power/work than the 4th house of core being/family.

So at least a planet can be saved from peregrination with Joy?

I don't have this case, but just to test importance, what if one had a planet in joy but out of sect? Or in sorrow but in sect? Just mixed dignity or one overcomes the other?

I second all of them.

MSO
12-17-2011, 10:07 PM
Personally, I use my own system of joys based on what the houses do to the planets' energies. I don't know if this is an established system or not, though.

Houses
1. Sun
2. Moon
3. Mercury
4. Venus
5. Mars
6. Jupiter
7. Saturn
8. Saturn
9. Jupiter
10. Mars
11. Venus
12. Mercury

Sun joying in first because planets in the first tend to draw attention from other people, and what other planet draws attention more than the Sun?

Moon in second because it's about values. And what is the Moon if not a representation of what you value most?

Mercury in the third, for obvious reasons.

Venus in the fourth, comfortable home life, easy-going father, sets the stage for a happy life.

Mars in the fifth, romance, creativity, sex, gambling. Mars all the way.

Jupiter in the sixth I haven't worked out as well... but honestly, would you rather anything else there?

Saturn in the seventh. Marriages are serious affairs, meant to last a life time. Saturn is seen as bad here because marriages that are forged too hastily don't last, but that's not a bad thing. Other close relationships do well with the lord of time there keeping them together for long periods.

Saturn in the eight. Other people's money. 'nuff said.

Jupiter in the ninth for obvious reasons.

Mars in the 10th. Authority, career, and the drive for both. Right up Mars' alley.

Venus in the 11th because Venus gives you pleasant friends, hopes, wishes, blah blah.

Mercury in the 12th... well, again, haven't worked this one out yet...

The signs opposite the joys would be their sorrow. Sun wouldn't shine so bright in a marriage, Venus isn't so pleasant when gambling, Saturn isn't so pleasant to your values... etc.

This undoubtedly could be written better, but my Merc squares my AC :joyful:

Rebel Uranian
12-17-2011, 10:09 PM
@MSO - That is basically the system of planetary rulership through the signs of the Zodiac, except rotated and applied to houses rather than signs. Your system also has a lot of overlap with the one I posted on my first post on this thread.

MSO
12-17-2011, 10:10 PM
Interesting... you're quite right.

Oh well, works for me.

RaptInReverie
12-18-2011, 01:04 AM
MSO,

I think its commendable that you’ve come up with your own system of Planetary Joys. We need more innovate astrologers like you out here. However, I think you might benefit from hearing some different views on your system. I’m not attacking you, but, contrarily, I am presenting different views for you to take into consideration--constructively, of course.

While the Sun in the 1st House may be a good placement, I think it could foster superficiality, a lack of depth, and egocentrism.

The Moon, in my opinion, expresses our needs--what we cling to for security. In the 2nd House, it could predispose the native to insecurities and self-worth issues, causing them to seek emotional security in material possessions. I would see this as a very vulnerable placement, especially if the Moon was in a water sign.

Mars in the 5th might exert too much energy into fun and games, leaving them little energy for work and other important obligations. Perhaps they might be adulterous and irresponsible in marriage.

Mercury in the 12th might not be vocal enough. A native with this placement might feel like their voice isn’t heard, or like they can never express themselves to others sufficiently. It could also suggest learning disabilities.

I think you’re on the right track, though. Let me know your thoughts on this.

MSO
12-18-2011, 01:28 AM
MSO,

I think its commendable that you’ve come up with your own system of Planetary Joys. We need more innovate astrologers like you out here. However, I think you might benefit from hearing some different views on your system. I’m not attacking you, but, contrarily, I am presenting different views for you to take into consideration--constructively, of course.

While the Sun in the 1st House may be a good placement, I think it could foster superficiality, a lack of depth, and egocentrism.

The Moon, in my opinion, expresses our needs--what we cling to for security. In the 2nd House, it could predispose the native to insecurities and self-worth issues, causing them to seek emotional security in material possessions. I would see this as a very vulnerable placement, especially if the Moon was in a water sign.

Mars in the 5th might exert too much energy into fun and games, leaving them little energy for work and other important obligations. Perhaps they might be adulterous and irresponsible in marriage.

Mercury in the 12th might not be vocal enough. A native with this placement might feel like their voice isn’t heard, or like they can never express themselves to others sufficiently. It could also suggest learning disabilities.

I think you’re on the right track, though. Let me know your thoughts on this.

Good points, all of them.

However, what you're explaining sounds a lot like the planets being in their own rulership. Leos are superficial, egocentric, etc. The Sun does well there. Same for the Moon being in Cancer, it leads to them being insecure, and Cancers are known horders (security in material possessions). And so forth with Mars in Aries/Mars in 5th House.

So I wonder if domicle rulerships are indeed "good" if the joys I've described aren't.

And let it be noted that I fight for my created philosophies until I'm proven wrong, but I hold nothing against people who do the proving. It's all part of the process, putting forth an idea and letting others bash it to prove it's worth! :lol: That's why my sig says what it does!

Rebel Uranian
12-18-2011, 01:31 AM
Your comment reminded me of this article (http://www.sevenstarsastrology.com/mercury-gemini-mercury-virgo-not-strong-intellect/).

I've actually been trying to find out what the actual best conditions and placements for planets are. The Moon in Cancer is good, at least if it's afflicted by malefics but not really otherwise, and really all that does is improve the condition of the malefics for the native and certainly not the condition of the Moon. There's a lot of weird and counter-intuitive, counter-common-belief stuff out there that I can totally see working more than what is commonly believed. People are too attached to archetypes and sentiment to pay enough attention to measurement and method. I started astrology in order to make measurements.

dr. farr
12-18-2011, 01:37 AM
All the Hellenists referred to the 4th place as the "house of the fathers" (ie, ancestors) It was also referred to as "under the earth": hence Manilius connection (most likely) of Saturn being "in joy" in the 4th (fathers/ancestors/being under the earth)

Each factor (joy, sorrow, domicile, sect, etc) modifies the net situation of a given planet, hence the scoring method (what I refer to as a "totality of testimonies") It is quite appropriate to use several variant joy/sorrow/ allocation schema's, in making an evaluation.

MSO
12-18-2011, 01:38 AM
Your comment reminded me of this article (http://www.sevenstarsastrology.com/mercury-gemini-mercury-virgo-not-strong-intellect/).

I've actually been trying to find out what the actual best conditions and placements for planets are. The Moon in Cancer is good, at least if it's afflicted by malefics but not really otherwise, and really all that does is improve the condition of the malefics for the native and certainly not the condition of the Moon. There's a lot of weird and counter-intuitive, counter-common-belief stuff out there that I can totally see working more than what is commonly held as true.

That's a great article!

This is a different strand of thought, but I figure what the heck. While studying humours of the planets, I found that Jupiter is in detriment in Gemini even though they're both of the hot and moist nature. It makes me wonder if it fares well in Libra and Aquarius either, being of the same nature.

RaptInReverie
12-18-2011, 01:42 AM
Good points, all of them.

However, what you're explaining sounds a lot like the planets being in their own rulership. Leos are superficial, egocentric, etc. The Sun does well there. Same for the Moon being in Cancer, it leads to them being insecure, and Cancers are known horders (security in material possessions). And so forth with Mars in Aries/Mars in 5th House.

So I wonder if domicle rulerships are indeed "good" if the joys I've described aren't.

And let it be noted that I fight for my created philosophies until I'm proven wrong, but I hold nothing against people who do the proving. It's all part of the process, putting forth an idea and letting others bash it to prove it's worth! :lol: That's why my sig says what it does!

I understand. The Sun will bring Leo-esque qualities to whatever house it occupies. It just so happens that it most closely resembles its domicile in the first house. I wouldn't consider them to be the same, only similar. Likewise with the Moon. It will bring Cancer-esque qualities to whatever house it rules, but I wouldn't consider having the Moon in the 2nd the same as having the Moon in Cancer.

Moog
12-18-2011, 01:53 AM
That's a great article!

This is a different strand of thought, but I figure what the heck. While studying humours of the planets, I found that Jupiter is in detriment in Gemini even though they're both of the hot and moist nature. It makes me wonder if it fares well in Libra and Aquarius either, being of the same nature.

Too much heat and wetness creates too much-ness. Jupiter is thought of as a benefic and a fertile planet, but you can have too much of a good thing.

It's rulerships are the hot and dry Sagittarius, and the cold and wet Pisces, each of which balances one or other of it's elemental qualities. Something to think about.

I would agree with your line of thinking.

MSO
12-18-2011, 01:56 AM
Too much heat and wetness creates too much-ness. Jupiter is thought of as a benefic and a fertile planet, but you can have too much of a good thing.

It's rulerships are the hot and dry Sagittarius, and the cold and wet Pisces, each of which balances one or other of it's elemental qualities. Something to think about.

Initially I thought the same thing. But then you have Saturn which is cold and dry, which domicles in cold and dry Capricorn. And Aries hot/dry which domicles in hot/dry Aries.

Both are malefics, and then there's the Sun and Moon which are "neutral" in terms of good/bad, but both domicle in signs that double the energies they naturally have.

Moog
12-18-2011, 02:03 AM
Yeah, it's a pretty wacky schema really, the more you look, the more you find strange inconsistencies which don't make sense.

In the sect concept, Mars is considered better when cooled and moistened by being in a water sign, in a night chart, or under the earth. Saturn is 'better' when warmed and moistened.

So maybe a planet in a dignity doesn't mean it has a 'good' effect but it does mean 'powerful'?

I think these separate qualities are oft confused, and oft confuse me :lol:

byjove
12-18-2011, 02:07 AM
So maybe a planet in a dignity doesn't mean it has a 'good' effect but it does mean 'powerful'?

I think these separate qualities are oft confused, and oft confuse me :lol:

You've hit something, I've read that. No where...it was something old like Valens/Ptolemy...one of them said this...to remember that dignity represents power...power for achieving our happiness is our first instinct, yet killers etc. get the same power just use it in a different way.

I just remembered some more. I think this idea was also used to explain why 'positive' aspects don't always work in your favour e.g. trines, which can fall into the area of laziness, expectation etc. instead of natural talent and ability. Likewise, that 'negative' aspects can build a psychological force strong in a native for encouraging modesty, working hard etc. which appear powerful and bad but are actually beneficial.

This might be yet another one of the 'ills of modern astrology' that many well-read traditionalists/hellenists point to when encouraging root and branch rethinking of modern astrology.

MSO
12-18-2011, 02:11 AM
Which leads back to the system of "joys" I use for houses. They may not be "good" there, but certainly powerful.

Maybe we should re-term "rulership" and other words that lead to one thinking a planet being powerful is "good."

Rebel Uranian
12-18-2011, 02:15 AM
In the sect concept, Mars is considered better when cooled and moistened by being in a water sign, in a night chart, or under the earth. Saturn is 'better' when warmed and dried.


Isn't it warmed and moistened?


Maybe we should re-term "rulership" and other words that lead to one thinking a planet being powerful is "good."

I don't even think dignity is power. I mean, look at Saturn in Libra. Doesn't Saturn resonate better with Taurus (materialistic, stubborn, change-adverse) even though it does more "good" in Libra (dynamic, flighty)? I think dignities are too arbitrary.

RaptInReverie
12-18-2011, 02:15 AM
Which leads back to the system of "joys" I use for houses. They may not be "good" there, but certainly powerful.

Maybe we should re-term "rulership" and other words that lead to one thinking a planet being powerful is "good."

Sun in the 1st would definitely be a powerful position, as would Mars in the 5th. From that standpoint, I understand the logic behind your system. The planet would express itself easily, albeit not necessarily in a "good" way.

Moog
12-18-2011, 02:18 AM
Isn't it warmed and moistened?

Yep, well spotted! My mistake.

Corrected.

Last thing I want is to confuse things further :lol:

MSO
12-18-2011, 02:21 AM
I don't even think dignity is power. I mean, look at Saturn in Libra. Doesn't Saturn resonate better with Taurus (materialistic, stubborn, change-adverse) even though it does more "good" in Libra (dynamic, flighty)? I think dignities are too arbitrary.

Heh, what's worse is that Saturn's triplicity is the Air signs. :pinched:

dr. farr
12-18-2011, 02:30 AM
Heh, what's worse is that Saturn's triplicity is the Air signs. :pinched:

Yet, in jyotish (Vedic astrology) the tridosha of Saturn is: AIR :surprised:(called Vata in tridosha, ie, Vedic element theory) I think a lot of the problem is with the trucated Aristotelian elemental system of 4 elements (heavily promoted in Western astrology by Ptolemy, but also followed by the other Hellenist authors as well), whereas the original Platonic elemental system is 5 elements (including "ether"), which is similar to the 5 elements in the Vedic tridosha system (Vata = air and ehter, Pitta = fire, Kapha = water and earth) and also to the 5 element Chinese system.

Also, I believe that dignities/debilities have much more than an elemental basis to them...but that is another whole involved subject!

byjove
12-18-2011, 02:34 AM
... I have set up a few threads recently with simple points...yet they keep stirring up rethinking of older concepts...oops:tongue: I don't have a conscious mind to encourage revolution at this time lol so I don't know why it keeps happening :)

MSO: the point about the joys being powerful but not necessarily beneficial, might the houses of sorrow perhaps accommodate the negative?

I can't remember who suggested it, but I think that yes perhaps we should reconsider some of the terms we use, I think they confuse when used in a modern context of today...:surprised:

tsmall
12-18-2011, 02:35 AM
Yet, in jyotish (Vedic astrology) the tridosha of Saturn is: AIR :surprised:(called Vata in tridosha, ie, Vedic element theory) I think a lot of the problem is with the trucated Aristotelian elemental system of 4 elements (heavily promoted in Western astrology by Ptolemy, but also followed by the other Hellenist authors as well), whereas the original Platonic elemental system is 5 elements (including "ether"), which is similar to the 5 elements in the Vedic tridosha system (Vata = air and ehter, Pitta = fire, Kapha = water and earth) and also to the 5 element Chinese system.

Also, I believe that dignities/debilities have much more than an elemental basis to them...but that is another whole involved subject!

Air = the air we breathe, as well as the wind? Whereas aether = the ambient, and possibly something beyond what we can see/feel?

MSO
12-18-2011, 02:38 AM
... I have set up a few threads recently with simple points...yet they keep stirring up rethinking of older concepts...oops:tongue: where is this leading? we may just start something...

MSO: the point about the joys being powerful but not necessarily beneficial, might the houses of sorrow perhaps accommodate the negative?

I can't remember who suggested it, but I think that yes perhaps we should reconsider some of the terms we use, I think they confuse when used in a modern context of today...:surprised:

The house of sorrow accommodate the negative? You mean like Sun in 7th House makes a person egocentric? Or do you mean the opposing house balances it out?

Speaking of being confused in modern context, while reading Lilly I was surprised to find out I have a "dark complexion." Since I'm by no means dark, that baffled me for a long time :lol:

JUPITERASC
12-18-2011, 10:25 AM
The house of sorrow accommodate the negative? You mean like Sun in 7th House makes a person egocentric? Or do you mean the opposing house balances it out?

Speaking of being confused in modern context, while reading Lilly I was surprised to find out I have a "dark complexion." Since I'm by no means dark, that baffled me for a long time :lol:
Malefic Saturn has Joy in the 12th House
Malefic Mars has Joy in the 6th House :smile:

Rebel Uranian
12-18-2011, 03:35 PM
I think "accommodate the negative" means that Mars in the 12th wouldn't be able to act in a bad way vs. Mars in the 6th, which would be strong but would be able to.

Doesn't Saturn have Joy in the 4th house not the 12th house? How would it have Joy in both?

byjove
12-18-2011, 06:05 PM
Whoops...

'accommodate' has mislead here, I'll re-phrase that:

rather, I thought that someone was looking for a house where a planet would not perform well - in contrast to a planet in joy in a particular house. With that I mentioned the other dignity/debility - the houses of sorrow, as Dr. Farr mentions earlier in the thread.

JUPITERASC
12-18-2011, 06:35 PM
I think "accommodate the negative" means that Mars in the 12th wouldn't be able to act in a bad way vs. Mars in the 6th, which would be strong but would be able to.

Doesn't Saturn have Joy in the 4th house not the 12th house? How would it have Joy in both? the 12th house has negative connotations and nevertheless therefore can "accommodate the negative" in the form of Saturn who Joys in both the 12th and the 4th houses as dr. farr earlier explained

Rebel Uranian the 12th is a Cadent House, therefore as you have said, any Malefic therein would be unable to harm the native (Hellenistic Astrology) :smile:

Whoops... 'accommodate' has mislead here, I'll re-phrase that:
rather, I thought that someone was looking for a house where a planet would not perform well - in contrast to a planet in joy in a particular house. With that I mentioned the other dignity/debility - the houses of sorrow, as Dr. Farr mentions earlier in the thread.
Saturn, being malefic enjoys the negative connotations of the 12th house :smile:

MSO
12-18-2011, 07:43 PM
the 12th house has negative connotations and nevertheless therefore can "accommodate the negative" in the form of Saturn who Joys in both the 12th and the 4th houses as dr. farr earlier explained

Rebel Uranian the 12th is a Cadent House, therefore as you have said, any Malefic therein would be unable to harm the native (Hellenistic Astrology) :smile:


Saturn, being malefic enjoys the negative connotations of the 12th house :smile:


What's with the cocky responses when you don't even know what you're talking about? :smile:

Whoops...

'accommodate' has mislead here, I'll re-phrase that:

rather, I thought that someone was looking for a house where a planet would not perform well - in contrast to a planet in joy in a particular house. With that I mentioned the other dignity/debility - the houses of sorrow, as Dr. Farr mentions earlier in the thread.

I'm assuming you mean something like... Saturn not faring so well in the 5th House?

Rebel Uranian
12-18-2011, 08:35 PM
Saturn, being malefic enjoys the negative connotations of the 12th house :smile:


That works for now, but to me it seems like a double negative. The 12th house restrains things in a way, and Saturn is restraint, so it's restraining restraint?

MSO
12-18-2011, 08:45 PM
That works for now, but to me it seems like a double negative. The 12th house restrains things in a way, and Saturn is restraint, so it's restraining restraint?

The idea being that since the 12th House is inherently negative, Saturn joys there since it's the author of mischief.

Rebel Uranian
12-18-2011, 08:53 PM
...Then why the 4th?

MSO
12-18-2011, 08:55 PM
dr farr already explained it, the fourth house is related to fathers and ancestors, two things which Saturn represents in a natal chart.

Rebel Uranian
12-18-2011, 08:56 PM
OK. I have Saturn in the 4th square Mercury in the 1st. Wouldn't Mercury in the 1st just make you talk about yourself too much?

Does Joy take a planet out of peregrinity? I'm still wondering how many points one Joy is so I can do more scoring...

MSO
12-18-2011, 08:59 PM
Joy is an accidental dignity. I'm pretty sure whether a planet is peregrine or not is determined by essential dignity only, though I could be wrong. But I have heard that reception can take a planet out of it.

Rebel Uranian
12-18-2011, 09:01 PM
Reception can take a planet out of peregrine? I've heard that it can't so I'm confused. Someone who knows, please answer! Also please tell me how many points a Joy is. I'm thinking +3, but I'm probably wrong.

[edit: *of peregrine]

MSO
12-18-2011, 09:04 PM
Reception can take a planet out? I've heard that it can't so I'm confused. Someone who knows, please answer! Also please tell me how many points a Joy is. I'm thinking +3, but I'm probably wrong.

I've heard that it can't take it out of detriment/fall. But maybe I'm confusing the two. I don't know...

byjove
12-18-2011, 09:06 PM
Does Joy take a planet out of peregrinity? I'm still wondering how many points one Joy is so I can do more scoring...

Yes, this was one of the main things in my head when I set up this thread. Thankfully another member did mention on page 1 that he puts +3 for a planet in joy.

I've a similar situation to yourself so I was very interested in that question. I think we're good! :biggrin:

byjove
12-18-2011, 09:11 PM
I've heard that it can't take it out of detriment/fall. But maybe I'm confusing the two. I don't know...

Dignity and debility is a hot debate on various threads on here right now, check out some ideas in:

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5232&page=10



Don't miss this site and article if you are curious about this
http://www.sevenstarsastrology.com/mercury-gemini-mercury-virgo-not-strong-intellect/

The author here points out that dignity and debility indicates power, not good or bad. Also, on the first link I put above ^^ there is another member who has conducted scientific research on IQ scores of different Mercury placements. Mercury in Pisces (fall, detriment) scores higher than most by far. The point is, there seems to be growing consensus that dignity and debility today are misrepresented as good and bad. Some older astro books I read showed that the same dignity can give you strength to achieve your ambitious or kill many people - it's about power not good or bad, seemingly...:whistling:

JUPITERASC
12-18-2011, 10:08 PM
MSO I said:
the 12th house has negative connotations and nevertheless therefore can "accommodate the negative" in the form of Saturn who Joys in both the 12th and the 4th houses as dr. farr earlier explained

Rebel Uranian the 12th is a Cadent House, therefore as you have said, any Malefic therein would be unable to harm the native (Hellenistic Astrology) :smile:

Saturn, being malefic enjoys the negative connotations of the 12th house :smile:

a response to which you MSO objected as follows:

What's with the cocky responses when you don't even know what you're talking about? talking to yourself :smile:
MSO you then simply reworded what I had written
The idea being that since the 12th House is inherently negative, Saturn joys there since it's the author of mischief.
which is what I said when I said:
Saturn, being malefic enjoys the negative connotations of the 12th house :smile:
Rebel Uranian you said:
That works for now, but to me it seems like a double negative. The 12th house restrains things in a way, and Saturn is restraint, so it's restraining restraint?
Exactly. A double negative is a plus. Saturn takes pleasure in restraint and restraining :smile:

JUPITERASC
12-18-2011, 10:30 PM
I've heard that it can't take it out of detriment/fall. But maybe I'm confusing the two. I don't know...

QUOTE
"Just as essential dignity signifies strength and a capacity for beneficial action, lack of it implies weakness or a harmful disposition. A planet with no essential dignity is called Peregrine, a Latin word meaning 'alien' or 'foreigner' (pereger = beyond the borders, ager = land, i.e., 'beyond one's own land'). In old English, to 'peregrinate' means to wander far from home.

In symbolic terms, a peregrine planet describes a drifter - someone with no title or stake in his or her environment.

Property owners tend to view drifters with suspicion, and distrust their lack of stability. (CA. p.112)

Under normal circumstances a peregrine planet lacks the necessary strength to convey lasting benefit. Its position of weakness can be alleviated, however, if it is strongly dignified accidentally or if it forms a mutual reception with a stronger planet."

source http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig4.html :smile:

Rebel Uranian
12-18-2011, 10:31 PM
I'm still wondering if reception takes a planet out of peregrinity. I mean, some of the scores for my peregrine planets in reception are already 6x a "high" scoring planet regardless of whether it does, it's just more impressive if it's 9x a "high" score rather than merely 6x.

Edit: I'm assuming that's a no? I shouldn't assume because we all know what assumptions make when you make them.

JUPITERASC
12-18-2011, 10:53 PM
I'm still wondering if reception takes a planet out of peregrinity. I mean, some of the scores for my peregrine planets in reception are already 6x a "high" scoring planet regardless of whether it does, it's just more impressive if it's 9x a "high" score rather than merely 6x.

Edit: I'm assuming that's a no? I shouldn't assume because we all know what assumptions make when you make them.
Rebel Uranian it is ok to make assumptions because we all make assumptions, then we all challenge each others assumptions - that's debate. :smile:

Whether a particular reception is of any value is dependent upon (a) its essential dignity/debility and (b) whether the two planets concerned are in aspect

A peregrine planet is in a precarious condition.

If a peregrine planet is in mutual reception with a stronger planet that is of no value to the peregrine planet unless the two planets are in aspect. If the two planets are in aspect then the condition of the peregrine planet is alleviated

Rebel Uranian
12-18-2011, 10:54 PM
You mean in aspect within 8*? If there are two peregrine planets in reception are in aspect, are they both alleviated?

JUPITERASC
12-18-2011, 11:04 PM
You mean in aspect within 8*? If there are two peregrine planets in reception are in aspect, are they both alleviated?
I wrote: "If a peregrine planet is in mutual reception with a stronger planet"

and also the two planets must be in aspect.

Two peregrine planets in aspect and mutual reception would not be of much assistance to each other. They would be helping each other but would have few resources in order to do so - however, that would be better than each peregrine planet being totally without any assistance at all. Something is better than nothing. :smile:

byjove
12-19-2011, 02:18 AM
This discussion has helped me hugely. I took another look at dignity and re-found that mixed reception alleviates a planet from peregrination, so some of my planets are now alleviated:

Mutual Reception - poorly dignified can escape.

Mars: Jupiter and Mars in each other's face

Mercury: Mars in the term of Mercury, Mercury
in the face and triplicy of Mars

Moon: in joy in 3rd house

Jupiter: Venus is in Jupiter's face and Jupiter
is in Venus' term

These are the receptions of only the planets I was concerned about. So now I have no peregrine planets...(?) ...

JUPITERASC
12-19-2011, 02:40 AM
This discussion has helped me hugely. I took another look at dignity and re-found that mixed reception alleviates a planet from peregrination, so some of my planets are now alleviated:

Mutual Reception - poorly dignified can escape.

Mars: Jupiter and Mars in each other's face

Mercury: Mars in the term of Mercury, Mercury
in the face and triplicy of Mars

Moon: in joy in 3rd house

Jupiter: Venus is in Jupiter's face and Jupiter
is in Venus' term

These are the receptions of only the planets I was concerned about. So now I have no peregrine planets...(?) ...
alleviate - Can mean "diminish the weight of"; to alleviate is not to cure, but rather to lighten, lessen, or relieve to some degree.


Alleviate = to make (pain, sorrow, etc.) easier to bear; lessen; relieve
from Late Latin alleviāre to mitigate, from Latin levis light:smile:

dr. farr
12-19-2011, 03:26 AM
Parasara (mainstream) Vedic uses even more considerations than Western Traditional in determining planetary STRENGTH, which for them is the same as "dignity" is for our Western approach: anciently too, in the West, it seems that dignity/debility had to do with potential POWER (ie, INFLUENCE) of the given planet, not for whether that influence would be "good" or "bad".
...but I myself look at dignity indicating power of the planet to express its "healthy" qualities (its essential qualities), and debility in difficulty in such expression; hence for me a dignified (net dignified) planet is a constructive influence and a debilitated (net detrimented) planet is a disruptive influence, in the given chart.
But I want to re-iterate that this is only the way I look at it; historically in both Traditionalist and (mainstream) Vedic astrology, dignity/debility was exclusively considered relative to the POWER or STRENTH of the planet to express itself, whether for "good" or for "evil"...

Rebel Uranian
12-19-2011, 06:06 PM
This discussion has helped me hugely. I took another look at dignity and re-found that mixed reception alleviates a planet from peregrination, so some of my planets are now alleviated:

Mutual Reception - poorly dignified can escape.

Mars: Jupiter and Mars in each other's face

Mercury: Mars in the term of Mercury, Mercury
in the face and triplicy of Mars

Moon: in joy in 3rd house

Jupiter: Venus is in Jupiter's face and Jupiter
is in Venus' term

These are the receptions of only the planets I was concerned about. So now I have no peregrine planets...(?) ...

You can't mix anything when the total dignities for an individual planet sum less than 3 if I understand correctly. Plus, it'd have to be like Jupiter in Taurus and the Moon in Cancer, not Saturn in Aries and the Sun in Aquarius, to alleviate the peregrine planet(s).

...but I myself look at dignity indicating power of the planet to express its "healthy" qualities (its essential qualities), and debility in difficulty in such expression; hence for me a dignified (net dignified) planet is a constructive influence and a debilitated (net detrimented) planet is a disruptive influence, in the given chart.

Good and evil are now quantified.

MSO
12-19-2011, 06:18 PM
You can't mix anything when the total dignities for an individual planet sum less than 3 if I understand correctly. Plus, it'd have to be like Jupiter in Taurus and the Moon in Cancer, not Saturn in Aries and the Sun in Aquarius, to alleviate the peregrine planet(s).

Saturn isn't always peregrine in Aries :P

Rebel Uranian
12-19-2011, 06:19 PM
I know, I just mean in a peregrine place in Aries. All planets except the luminaries have non-peregrine places in a given sign including Jupiter in Taurus. Of course, it depends on which set of terms you use etc...

Also, if there is a triplicity dignity that must be mixed too. You can't mix a triplicity with a term and a face even if they're equal values if I understand correctly.

byjove
12-19-2011, 06:38 PM
Actually you can mix dignities, it's still called mutual reception (mixed), perhaps you're not familiar with it but it in fact exists.

This is a good resource though I've read this clearly in 50 places.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig6.html

"Receptions are a type of aspect in classical astrology; they occur when one planet rules a dignity (Rulership, Exaltation, Triplicity, Term or Face) of another planet."

http://astro-horoscopes.com/ask-kevin/classical-astrology/107-mutual-reception.html

If I've mis-applied something, possibly, but the above statement is clear as day - mutual reception IS NOT limited to sign of rulership or exaltation.

Another quote which makes this clear:

"Planets can also be in mutual reception by any of the other dignities, too: exaltation, triplicity, term, and face. They can be mixed, too. Saturn in Libra, and Venus at 29° Scorpio receive each other by sign and term, which can help mitigate Venus' weakness in the sign of its detriment."

http://mithras93.tripod.com/lessons/lesson7/index.html

Also, which author says that one must use a planet with a minimum of 3 dignity? Sources are good, they reveal credibility.

Rebel Uranian
12-19-2011, 07:30 PM
Dignities can be mixed, I was just giving the rules on how to mix them from my understanding.

JUPITERASC
12-20-2011, 03:51 AM
I'm still wondering if reception takes a planet out of peregrinity. I mean, some of the scores for my peregrine planets in reception are already 6x a "high" scoring planet regardless of whether it does, it's just more impressive if it's 9x a "high" score rather than merely 6x.

Edit: I'm assuming that's a no? I shouldn't assume because we all know what assumptions make when you make them.

Here's a previous thread "Peregrine planets and Onward :smile:http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38284&highlight=hellenistic

Rebel Uranian
12-20-2011, 08:47 PM
...I still think we should re-think the commonly-used table of scoring, because using Ptolemy's table of essential dignities and this (http://www.astrologycom.com/values.html) scoring table, with my chart being nocturnal and the house system being whole signs as well as only partile (within 1*) aspects adding dignity or debility, my Saturn is +28. Diurnal is +31. The thing is peregrine and fall. +5 is supposed to be exceptional. I'm not trying to take this thread off-track, but this still needs to be considered.

MSO
12-20-2011, 10:06 PM
...I still think we should re-think the commonly-used table of scoring, because using Ptolemy's table of essential dignities and this (http://www.astrologycom.com/values.html) scoring table, with my chart being nocturnal and the house system being whole signs as well as only partile (within 1*) aspects adding dignity or debility, my Saturn is +28. Diurnal is +31. The thing is peregrine and fall. +5 is supposed to be exceptional. I'm not trying to take this thread off-track, but this still needs to be considered.

The number is so high because you counted the accidental dignities. The planet can't be peregrine if it's in fall.

Rebel Uranian
12-20-2011, 10:13 PM
Peregrine only applies to planets with no essential dignities. Dignities and debilities are different things. Also, if it's non-peregrine and we only count essential dignities and debilities, the number is +16, which is considerably lower, but still too high.

MSO
12-20-2011, 10:31 PM
Peregrine only applies to planets with no essential dignities. Dignities and debilities are different things. Also, if it's non-peregrine and we only count essential dignities and debilities, the number is +16, which is considerably lower, but still too high.

Definition of peregrine. (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/dictionary/peregrine.php)

Rebel Uranian
12-20-2011, 10:32 PM
That definition also says no planet is peregrine if it is in reception with another, which I know is not true.

JUPITERASC
12-20-2011, 10:33 PM
The number is so high because you counted the accidental dignities. The planet can't be peregrine if it's in fall.
A planet can be both peregrine and in fall. For example all of the following planets are in Fall:

Saturn Aries
Mars Cancer
Venus Virgo
Sun Libra
Moon Scorpio
Jupiter Capricorn
Mercury Pisces

If any of those planets listed above were also in a degree in which they have no dignity, then those planets would be not only in Fall but would also then be Peregrine as well :smile:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig2.html

MSO
12-20-2011, 10:38 PM
It all depends on your interpretation. I take "no essential dignity" to mean it has no place at all in the sign, no terms, faces, and yes, even fall and detriment.

You take it literally to mean no "dignity."

This is the first time I've ever heard the Sun being peregrine in Libra.

JUPITERASC
12-20-2011, 10:48 PM
QUOTE FROM LILLY: Peregrine
A Planet is then said to be Peregrine, when he is in the degrees of any Sign wherein he hath no essential dignity, As Saturn in the tenth degree of Aries, that Sign being not his House, Exaltation, or of his Triplicity, or he having in that degree neither Term or Face, he is then said to be Peregrine; had he been in 27, 28, &c. of Aries, he could not be termed Peregrine, because then he is in his own Term. (Lilly, CA, p.112) http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig4.html


the following link clearly shows that: http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig5.html
(a) a planet in Fall is Debilitated -4
(b) a Peregrine planet is even more Debilitated -5


any planet that is both Peregrine and in Fall is therefore essentially debilitated by -9


add or subtract other Debilities and/or Dignities

The numero uno drawback regarding any Libra Sun is Peregrinicity - because the Sun has no Dignity in Libra :smile:

MSO
12-20-2011, 10:59 PM
Heh, well that ***** for Librans without Venus in Leo.

Rebel Uranian
12-20-2011, 11:00 PM
Venus in Leo would have to have face (if it's there) or terms to pull it out.

MSO
12-20-2011, 11:03 PM
Venus in Leo would have to have face (if it's there) or terms to pull it out.

Why? [10 chars]

Rebel Uranian
12-20-2011, 11:13 PM
Because that's what everyone says and I'm a student so I can't argue. JK.

RaptInReverie
12-20-2011, 11:22 PM
Has anyone used Lilly's system to determine their chart's dominant planet, or is this method solely used in Horary?

JUPITERASC
12-20-2011, 11:24 PM
Heh, well that ***** for Librans without Venus in Leo.

Venus in Leo would have to have face (if it's there) or terms to pull it out.
Well said Rebel Uranian :smile:
Why? [10 chars]
Because that's what everyone says and I'm a student so I can't argue. JK.
Even so you are doing well Rebel Uranian because you've got the idea re: having face and terms "(if it's there) to pull it out" :smile:

Because:

Even with Venus in Leo - unless of course Venus is specifically between 13º Leo and 19º Leo which are the only degrees of any dignity Venus has in Leo, due to being in her own Terms.

Venus in any other degree of Leo apart from 13º Leo to 19º Leo, is Peregrine.

The Sun therefore remains in Fall and Peregrine and of not much assistance to Venus or to the affairs of the house ruled by Venus and/or vice versa – unless Venus is specifically located between 13º Leo and 19º Leo :smile:

MSO
12-20-2011, 11:32 PM
Has anyone used Lilly's system to determine their chart's dominant planet, or is this method solely used in Horary?

I have, and do.

SniperBomber328
12-26-2011, 12:45 PM
Wouldn't the Sun be somewhat safe if located near 23 degrees Libra, where then even though fall and peregrine, the sun would be conjunct Spica?

JUPITERASC
12-26-2011, 01:07 PM
Wouldn't the Sun be somewhat safe if located near 23 degrees Libra, where then even though fall and peregrine, the sun would be conjunct Spica?
dr. farr did confirm on a thread on this forum at some stage that the Sun when located at 23º Libra although in Fall and Peregrine, is protected by the powerful and benefic fixed star Spica :smile:

byjove
12-26-2011, 01:10 PM
Has anyone used Lilly's system to determine their chart's dominant planet, or is this method solely used in Horary?

I've read many astrologers modern and ancient chose not to use chart rulers or any other method which singles out a planet. Their arguement is that it foucesses too much attention on one planet and even if the planet is very important it would be a mistake to focus too much on it and not give the other planets enough attention.

I have to say that despite the tremendous importance I've found some planets in some charts, I still find it a mistake to focus on them. An orchestra is not one instrument, no matter how loud that insturment is.

SniperBomber328
12-26-2011, 01:24 PM
I've read many astrologers modern and ancient chose not to use chart rulers or any other method which singles out a planet. Their arguement is that it foucesses too much attention on one planet and even if the planet is very important it would be a mistake to focus too much on it and not give the other planets enough attention.

I have to say that despite the tremendous importance I've found some planets in some charts, I still find it a mistake to focus on them. An orchestra is not one instrument, no matter how loud that insturment is.

Well said on that orchestra example, thought it gave your statement jusice. I agree with what byjove said, because It would make sense to take the chart as a whole rather than focus a lot of attention on just one planet, even though it may be powerful in terms of dignity.

An example would be my Mars. It is the most powerful planet in my chart, being domicile and in its own triplicty, angular, direct, free of combustion and Swift in Motion. Despite all the dignity it is given, it doesn't really display too much power in my life, although prominent, to over-shadow my other planets. Other planets have their own agenda (dignity) as well, so it is best not to forget them too much.

JUPITERASC
12-26-2011, 02:04 PM
Wouldn't the Sun be somewhat safe if located near 23 degrees Libra, where then even though fall and peregrine, the sun would be conjunct Spica?
dr. farr did confirm on a thread on this forum at some stage that the Sun when located at 23º Libra although in Fall and Peregrine, is protected by the powerful and benefic fixed star Spica :smile:
I've read many astrologers modern and ancient chose not to use chart rulers or any other method which singles out a planet. Their arguement is that it foucesses too much attention on one planet and even if the planet is very important it would be a mistake to focus too much on it and not give the other planets enough attention.

I have to say that despite the tremendous importance I've found some planets in some charts, I still find it a mistake to focus on them. An orchestra is not one instrument, no matter how loud that insturment is.
Exactly. Although the Sun when located at 23º Libra is in Fall and Peregrine yet theoretically protected by the powerful and benefic fixed star Spica NEVERTHELESS each chart is different: no planet can be taken in isolation: so, if a 23º Libra Sun is also parallel in declination with another planet such as Mars in aspect with other planets conjunct malefic fixed stars the situation alters. The totality of influences must be considered :smile:

byjove
06-05-2012, 11:01 PM
Hello :smile:

I was reading:
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/dictionary/joy.php

and found a few 'basic' things about joys that I did not know. For example:

- a planet in debility can directly benefit from the company of an exalted planet
- Mars joys when the Sun is exalted
- Jupiter joys when the Sun is posited in one of the signs that Jupiter rules or in any of the fire or water signs

The list goes on and there are many related considerations. Can anyone tell how traditional/ancient this is? Anyone have much interest or experience of this?

I found this alarming (and perhaps very helpful) because it would release from peregrination three 'problem' planets in my chart. :innocent:

byjove
06-06-2012, 12:54 AM
Well said Rebel Uranian :smile:




Hi Jupiter! I've just re-read the thread and found quite a few very helpful and timely quotes which gave me pause, thank you!

I'm curious though, what do you think personally about the benefit of joy? How helpful is it holistically? Also, is it sufficient enough to ward of peregrination or no?

dr. farr
06-06-2012, 02:57 AM
The quote is from Devore's "Encyclopedia of Astrology" and refers to ancient concepts that go back to the Islamic transitional era and to Hellenist astrology even before that; these are more reasons why I do NOT believe in the peregrine concept!! I often use these oldtimes concepts (and others as well) in delineation, and also the fact that the dodekatemorion of planets, and planets anticisia as well, bring into play additional connections (some of a dignifying effect, some of a detrimenting effect).
Frankly, for me at least, the limited lists of dignities/debilities, which do not take these other factors into account at all, I consider to be often actually misleading because of this fact (ie, because of their failure to take these other factors into consideration)

Kaiousei no Senshi
06-06-2012, 06:07 AM
A few things, about the thread topic. Joys are an important part of our astrological history, from them we can discern house meanings, triplicity rulerships, aspectual theory, and sign elements. As far as I know, they can help mitigate a peregrine planet, but peregrine planets can be alleviated depending on other chart circumstances, most importantly is how dignified its dispositor is. Dispositor strength is very important for all planets, but it becomes highlighted when the planet in question is peregrine. If a sign of the zodiac is a kingdom of a planet, then the state of planets in that kingdom are determined by the king.

I believe Joy works more like sect. Planets in their joy are not essentially dignified, but they are less malefic than they would be otherwise. So, it's not a strong/weak placement, but a helpful/harmful placement.

Another powerful way to alleviate peregrine planets is to be configured with fixed stars, but you have to be careful there, because the nature of that star being adverse to the nature of the planet can cause some problems.

eternalautumn
07-23-2013, 03:04 AM
On a related note, instead of starting a new thread, I'd like to take this opportunity to present an article by Chris Brennan, The Planetary Joys and the Origins of the Significations of the Houses and Triplicities (http://www.hellenisticastrology.com/the-planetary-joys.pdf); in particular I'd like to correct an error I believe he (and others) has made.

First, the planets contributed to the names and significations of the houses they joy in:

Saturn - 12th House - Bad Spirit
Jupiter - 11th House - Good Spirit
Mars - 6th House - Bad Fortune
Sun - 9th House - God
Venus - 5th House - Good Fortune
Mercury - 1st House - Helm

On a side note, there's an interesting connection noted by Chris near the end of the article. The houses Saturn and Jupiter joy in, the diurnal malefic and benefic respectively, are both termed "spirit". They are ruled by the Sun, the king of day. The solar ascendant is also known as the Lot of Spirit. Day and the Sun are associated with the spirit, the immaterial, things that come forth from inside us, things we make happen, how we act (motivation, imagination, etc.). The houses Mars and Venus joy in, the nocturnal malefic and benefic respectively, are both termed "fortune". They are ruled by the Moon, the queen of night. The lunar ascendant is also known as the Lot of Fortune. Night and the Moon are associated with fortune, the material, things that come forth from outside us, things that happen to us, how we react (emotions, memories, etc.). This extends to the other diurnal and nocturnal planets generally, and the rest of the houses; the diurnal and nocturnal halves of a chart each represent spirit and fortune, male and female, day and night, where we go (the 10th) and where we come from (the 4th), the same way the left half of the chart corresponds with the self (1st House) and the right half represents the other (7th House). These ideas come into play later as well.

Also, as JUPITERASC alluded to earlier in the case of Saturn, double negatives are a good thing. Saturn contributes a good deal of meaning to the 12th House, the place of confinement, and to find Saturn himself, the confiner, confined there, is immensely positive. The same goes for the rest of the planets. Jupiter, the liberator, brings freedom, expansion, and growth. In the 11th House of friends and benefactors, wishes and goals, (namely things that bring freedom, expansion, and growth) this is amazingly positive. And so on. This demonstrates one way in which the the houses and planets share meaning with each other, the same way the houses and signs, and planets and signs, do; by way of analogy and pattern, the study of which is the whole of astrology. I think a planet located in it's place of joy is less a a dignity than simply a highly auspicious placement. Continuing with this, to find a planet in it's place of sorrow is not good. Jupiter in the 5th of worldly pleasures may seem nice at first glance, but this could easily mean extreme overindulgence, expansion of pleasure, which reaches a critical level rather quickly. I wonder if America has this placement? Balance and temperance are paramount; positive and negative need to be in harmony, as day and night, male and female. An excess or deficiency creates problems, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, as that is what makes us all unique and interesting, namely the ways we aren't perfect, but in general an overall balance must be maintained.

Anyway, Chris goes on to talk about how the planets are arranged so that the diurnal planets rejoice above the horizon, and the nocturnal below. Mercury the hermaphrodite finds joy in the 1st, straddling the line of light and dark. Overlooking the significance of this is the first part of Chris' error.

He also makes another important observation; the benefics and the luminaries all rejoice where they can "see" or aspect the Ascendant or 1st House. The malefics are placed in the 6th and 12th, which are both averted from the Ascendant, meaning they cannot "see" or aspect it, protecting the life of the native from their harm. Please refer to the traditional theory of aspects, explained by the Thema Mundi. In the signs, certain aversions are mitigated by ascensional times, antiscia, and other conditions, and converted into functional aspects, but the houses do not have this luxury.

On page 6 Chris starts talking about how the triplicity rulership scheme. He presents the traditional grouping, widely agreed upon, which I think is wrong. Another heresy, oh well. Here it is:

Aries, Leo, Sagittarius - Fire - Sun by day, Jupiter by night, Saturn cooperating
Taurus, Virgo, Capricorn - Earth - Venus by day, Moon by night, Mars cooperating
Gemini, Libra, Aquarius - Air - Saturn by day, Mercury by night, Jupiter cooperating
Cancer, Scorpio, Pisces - Water - Venus by day, Mars by night, Moon cooperating

(To be fair, I believe the fire and air triplicity rulers are correct. My problem is with the feminine night elements, earth and water.)

Chris tells us that he learned from Robert Schmidt that if you break the houses into angular triads with an angular house at the center of each triad, and observe the joys, they correspond with the triplicity rulers..:

12,1,2 - Saturn, Mercury - Air
3,4,5 - Moon, Venus - Earth
6,7,8 - Mars - Water
9,10,11 - Sun, Jupiter - Fire

This seems right at first glance, but completely misses the beauty and logic of the truth. Frankly I'm shocked and find it hard to believe that for thousands of years no one has noticed the huge mistake I'm about to point out. Is this deliberate misinformation? Maybe. He goes on to describe his discovery, "the arrangement of the joys around the angular triads actually provides the manner through which the signs of the zodiac came to be associated with the four elements". He's right, but does it wrong. He looks backward instead of forward. He brushes up against the mistake on page 14, perhaps without realizing it. However, I must continue a bit further before I make my case.

Chris notes that the triplicity rulers were often used to indicate halves or thirds of life, the in-sect (LOL :P) ruler governing the 1st third or half, the out of sect ruler governing the 2nd third or half, and the cooperating ruler for the last third, or otherwise just cooperating. He connects this with the fact that starting from a cadent house of an angular triad, the first planet is the sect ruler of that triplicity, the 2nd the out of sect ruler, and the next closest planet participates, as follows:

12,1,2 - Saturn, Mercury, next closest is Jupiter in the 11th - Air
3,4,5 - Moon, Venus, next closest is Mars in the 6th - Earth
6,7,8 - Mars, next closest is Venus in the 5th, next closest is Moon in the 3rd - Water
9,10,11 - Sun, Jupiter, next closest is Saturn in the 12th - Fire

Chris makes other interesting points in the rest of the article that I tend to agree with, but this is already a very long post. I'll try to wrap this up quickly. Observe the balance of symbolism in astrology:

Ascendant - Sunrise - East - Birth - Spring - Hot/Wet - Air
Zenith - Noon - South - Life - Summer - Hot/Dry - Fire
Descendant - Sunset - West - Death - Autumn - Cold/Dry - Earth
Nadir - Midnight - North - Afterlife - Winter - Cold/Wet - Water

And there you see Chris' mistake. He assumes that because the ancients say Mars rules the water triplicity, and because it is located in the triad containing the descendant, then the descendant must be related to water. This is wrong, as you can see. The descendant is earth, and the nadir is water, which makes Mars the night ruler of earth. Now to the other, bigger mistake. Mercury, the hermaphrodite, is two in one. He joys on the horizon in the 1st; he sorrows on the horizon in the 7th. However, if we place him simultaneously in the 7th, earth, our arrangement becomes balanced:

12,1,2 - Saturn, Mercury, next closest is Jupiter in the 11th - Air
3,4,5 - Moon, Venus, next closest is Mars in the 6th - Water
6,7,8 - Mars, Mercury, next closest is Venus in the 5th - Earth
9,10,11 - Sun, Jupiter, next closest is Saturn in the 12th - Fire

Hopefully this makes sense to other people. I realize it's a bit of a jump but I really think this is what we are supposed to see. Here is the beauty:

Fire - Sun, Jupiter, Saturn
Earth - Mercury, Mars, Venus
Air - Saturn, Mercury, Jupiter
Water - Venus, Moon, Mars

-Each luminary rules only once, the Sun at day in fire, the Moon at night in water, fitting with their natures as king and queen.

-Mercury rules twice, day and night, in opposite elements of earth and air, masculine and feminine, fitting with it's nature, and is the only planet to do so, being the only double-natured one.

-Saturn rules air by day, where his cold and dryness are tempered, and fire, where his cold is tempered. (Saturn being primarily cold, secondarily dry.)

-Mars rules earth by night, where his heat is tempered, and water, where his heat and dryness are tempered. (Mars being primarily hot, secondarily dry.)

-Jupiter rules fire by night, where his moisture is tempered, while out of sect, and air, which is his nature. (Jupiter being primarily moist, secondarily hot.)

-Venus rules water by day, which is her nature, while out of sect, and earth, where her moisture is tempered. (Venus being primarily moist, secondarily cold.)

-Saturn and Jupiter balance each other in both fire and air, the masculine, diurnal elements. They are joined by the Sun, the other diurnal planet, and Mercury.

-Mars and Venus balance each other in both earth and water, the feminine, nocturnal elements. They are joined by the Moon, the other nocturnal planet, and Mercury.

-The day rulers consist of a benefic, a malefic, a luminary, and Mercury.

-The night rulers consist of a benefic, a malefic, a luminary, and Mercury.

-The cooperating rulers consist of both benefics and both malefics.

I could go on, but I won't. I apologize for the lengthy and somewhat off-topic post; if you made it this far, thanks for reading!

dr. farr
07-23-2013, 03:32 AM
The oldest allocation of planets to their houses of joy is to be found in Manilius (14 AD, "Astronomica) It is of interest that these allocations were modified somewhat later (about 150 years later, with Valens and followed by other Hellenists, and then on into Islamic transitional era and Medieval European astrological doctrine)

The Manilius ("original") houses of joy allocations are as follows:

Mercury = 1st house
Moon = 3rd house
SATURN = 4TH HOUSE
Mars = 6th house
Sun = 9th house
VENUS = 10TH HOUSE
Jupiter = 11th house

Later Saturn became transposed to the 4th house, and Venus transposed to the 5th house.
Of interest (to me at least) is that the issue of sect seems implicated in these allocations: now Indian astrology follows the same sect allocations as does Traditionalist Western, EXCEPT THAT VEDIC ASTROLOGY HAS ALWAYS CONSIDERED VENUS DIURNAL AND SATURN NOCTURNAL!
Using the original (Manilius) house of joy allocations we can see how such sect allocations might be so:
Mercury = day and night, since its house of joy is the 1st house which contains the mixture of diurnal and nocturnal affinities
-Sun in the "diurnal" section of the (idealized) chart, being in its joy in the 9th house
-Jupiter in the diurnal section of the chart, being in its joy in the 11th house
-Moon in the nocturnal section of the chart, being in its joy in the 3rd house
-Mars in the nocturnal section of the chart, being in its joy in the 6th house
...but here's the difference (from later Hellenist and Traditionalist sect allocations):
-with the house of its joy being the 4th house (Manilius), Saturn is in the nocturnal section of the chart
-with the house of its joy being the 10th house (Manilius) Venus is in the dirunal section of the chart
Saturn in nocturnal sect, Venus in diurnal sect-exactly the sect allocations of these 2 planets in Vedic astrology!

Coincidence?? Or early Greek and Vedic astrology both springing from some common anterior source, Hellenist (and later Western) and Vedic going their own seperate ways sometime around the beginning of the CE??

Kaiousei no Senshi
07-23-2013, 04:21 AM
EternalAutumn, your thinking is right...if we were discussing temperamental theory in relation to astrology and the cycle of seasons, but that isn't what Chris is trying to point out. I'm not sure he mentions it in his article (it's been awhile since I've read it), but discussing it with him he's making the case that the elements as depicted in the chart for the joys of the planets match up with the Aristotelian idea of Natural Place of the elements. Earth sits at the bottom and supports Water who naturally falls on top of it, while Air rests on and rises above Water, and Fire rests on the Air in the heavens above. Natural Place and Temperaments are just different (maybe competing, I'm not sure) ideas on the nature of the elements.

Dr. Farr, while it might be kind of true that Manilius is the oldest source for the planetary joys, he isn't the only source around that time. There is a contemporary astrologer to Manilius named Thrasyllus who gave the more common scheme of Saturn joys in the Twelfth and Venus joys in the Fifth in his text. In light of this, it seems that Manilius's version of the joys was not the original but an alternate.

dr. farr
07-23-2013, 04:43 AM
Dr. Farr, while it might be kind of true that Manilius is the oldest source for the planetary joys, he isn't the only source around that time. There is a contemporary astrologer to Manilius named Thrasyllus who gave the more common scheme of Saturn joys in the Twelfth and Venus joys in the Fifth in his text. In light of this, it seems that Manilius's version of the joys was not the original but an alternate.

Or the other way around: for example, see the article "Thrasyllus" at the Hellenist Astrology Website, in which it is pointed out that in the fragments referenced by later Hellenist authors (unlike the case with Manilius we have no remaining text by Thrasyllus) these authors note that Thrasyllus was somewhat of an astrological innovator-maybe his innovations influenced Valens et al, to make a re-allocation of some of the houses of joy of some of the planets (Saturn and Venus)...? Alternatively Manilius might well have represented one school of early Hellenist astrological thought and practice, and Thrasyllus a different school, which latter school carried on through Valens and those later influenced by Valens (the school of practice represented by Manilius having faded into obscurity)
In any event, we have the Vedic sect allocations going far back into the BCE time, prior to either Manilius or Thrasyllus; and, for me (my opinion and experience) the Manilius house of planetary joy allocations, and the sect affinities based thereon (identical to the Vedic sect affinities), work "best" in actual practical application (at least they do so for me!)...

Kaiousei no Senshi
07-23-2013, 06:08 AM
Not having the full text doesn't render it less of a source, and having Manillius's full text doesn't necessarily make it the more accurate source, especially when the summaries also list Thrasyllus's sources. Does Manilius give any of his sources in Astronomica?

I also think you're being misleading. The article says he was something of an innovator because he thought that planets could strike with a ray from both directions and he didn't think Aries and Libra could hear one another. Let's be fair as to the level of innovation involved with that compared to reassigning places of joy. Especially since I'm pretty sure Manilius doesn't list the planetary ruler scheme we know of and instead has one that links the Sun with Gemini, the Moon with Sagittarius, etc, etc.

eternalautumn
07-23-2013, 04:32 PM
dr. farr, I'm not familiar with Manilius but I'd love to read him. Is there an online source you could point me to? For now I'm content with the joys as they are; if what Kai says is true, that Manilius had a different rulership scheme, etc., then I'm inclined to disregard his joy scheme.

Kai, actually he's saying that the joys do not match up with natural place doctrine, which by the way does in fact rely on the qualities:

Aristotle's entire approach to the elements is predicated on the notion that these are contrasting qualities that sit on opposite sides of a spectrum, and that "the elements all involve a contrariety in their mutual relations because their distinctive qualities are contrary." The element-triplicity scheme that appears to be derived from the joys is problematic from an Aristotelian perspective because it makes it so that the fire signs are literally opposite to the air signs in the zodiac, and the earth signs are literally opposite to the water signs.He says that Ptolemy did not include this triplicity scheme because it didn't match up with natural place. He claims that Valens and others must have followed Stoic philosophy which states that air is cold and water is moist, lining up with the joys. I think he may have meant to say "is problematic from a Stoic perspective" above. In the triplicity rulership scheme dervied from the joys that he presents, air is east, opposite water, and fire is south, opposite earth, following neither natural place nor the Stoic method.

I'm honestly 99% sure that my correction is correct. The elements are balanced this way. The two hot elements, air and fire, are adjacent and opposite the two cold elements, earth and water. The two dry elements, fire and earth are adjacent and opposite the two wet elements, water and air.

Something that also bothers me is the jump to include Venus and the Moon in the water triplicity. For the fire and "earth" triplicities at north and south, the order is from cadent house, to succedent house, to cadent house. For air in the east, cadent, cardinal, then back to previous succedent. The west should follow this same pattern, not cadent, succedent, cadent, like the north and south. It doesn't resonate with me that whoever may have "designed" the joys would include this ugliness on purpose.

BobZemco
07-23-2013, 05:03 PM
So at least a planet can be saved from peregrination with Joy?

No.

Peregrination is part of the Dignity Schema and Peregrine = No Dignity.

A Peregrine Planet has no Dignity, and there is absolutely nothing that can alter that.

Dignity = Comfort Zone

Many older sources use the Family Analogy to describe this Comfort Zone related to Dignity.

An Exalted Planet is like being in its own kingdom, being "da mayor" in your community or neighborhood. Think of the popes (and there were several) who would rape women in broad daylight in front of horrified on-lookers....and no one did anything about it.....that's Exalted, though in a bad way and not a good way.

In business, being Exalted would be like being the president or CEO of a company.

A Domiciled Planet is in is own home. You can pretty much do what you want. In business, that would be like having your own private office.

And now here's where Joy comes in --- you have an home in London, but you'd rather Joy in Kent (even though it means taking the train to work everyday). For business, you have your very own private office, but you'd rather Joy in an office with windows, or an office on the corner.

Being Peregrine is being a stranger in a strange land....often literally. There's an Horary Chart about marriage, and the Querent's Primary Significator is Venus Peregrine in Leo; Co-significaor Moon is Peregrine in Libra.

The Querent is literally a stranger in a strange land....an American in London, and Venus is in aversion to all Planets except Moon and Saturn....which shows how isolated Querent is and how little power the Querent really has over her situation, and being that she is a very strong independent women, this move to London has really cramped, restricted and infringed on the life-style that she's been accustomed...she's alienated....and who is she harming? Venus rules the 1st and 8th (while Moon is in the 1st) and that just shows how much more frustrating it really is.

If you want to "save" a Planet from Peregrination, then you'll have to move Heaven & Earth...literally...to put the Planet in a place where it has Dignity.

And yes, I was just wondering would there be a sorrow lol.

I don't have this case, but just to test importance, what if one had a planet in joy but out of sect? Or in sorrow but in sect? Just mixed dignity or one overcomes the other?

You're confusing the concepts, which is understandable, since more often than not the texts themselves are very confusing, in particular because they often use words interchangeably, or they were (mis)translated as such, most notably terms such as "strength" and "power."

And then that is exasperated because Traditional Astrologers using varying terms. I personally vomit every time I see Lord of ____ House or whatever.
It's sort of like the idiot lawyers in the US who insist upon "ex parte in camera."

It's much easier to say "a private meeting with the judge " instead of using the secret special Latin language of the not especially enlightened.

Anyway, you have to develop your own procedure or methodology....that would be part of the individual style thing....so long as it's thorough (so you don't over-look anything). To do that, you'll have to evaluate a Planet's condition, and there are several components of a Planet's condition.

One is whether a Planet is Fortunate or Unfortunate. Malefic/Benefic is an internal characteristic of the Planet....you can never change that, but you can modify it through external factors, which is what being Fortunate or Unfortunate is all about.

Since there's a thread about Saturn, Saturn is Malefic, but Saturn is Fortunate when Diurnal; when in Capricorn or Aquarius, but more Fortunate in Aquarius; when rising ahead of Sun, when in Masculine Quadrants, Signs, Houses and Degrees; when Direct; when Fast; when in a Bright Degree or Fortune Degree, or Eminence Degree; when in sextile/trine to Sun; when in sextile, square (with Reception and not withstanding other factors), trine or joined/assembled with a Benefic.

Saturn in or controlling the 2nd House means the Native is poor?

Only if Saturn is Unfortunate.

If Saturn is Fortunate, then the Native will have Wealth, but how will that Wealth be acquired?

What is the internal nature of Saturn? Malefic -- so the Native's Wealth will be acquired through means that are generally Malefic in some way, shape or form.

That could mean acquiring Wealth through fraud, deception, trickery, brute force, through litigation, through inheritance or you might have to work really, really hard your entire life ---- a constant struggle to gain or maintain Wealth, and there's a possibility you may not get your Wealth until nearly the end of your life...Wealth will not come easy regardless of how it is acquired.

Jupiter is a Benefic, but less Benefic when Unfortunate being Nocturnal; when rising west of Sun; when in a Feminine Quadrant, Sign, House or Degree; when in a Dark, Empty, Pitted or Azieme Degree; when Retrograde; when Peregrine; when in Fall/Detriment; when in square or opposition to Sun; when in opposition to a Malefic (including Sun or Mercury if they are Accidental Malefics); when Combust; and so on.

Jupiter in or controlling the 2nd House brings Riches Galore? Yes. When Fortunate, and even when Unfortunate....

...but there will be a price to pay....the Native will be sorrowed, forced to sacrifice relationships with spouse, or children, or family, or friends, or their health, or their standing/reputation in the community, or their ideas or something like that....perhaps they'll have to sacrifice their own life.

I've wondered that. The joy schema that you linked above connects the planets with the sect concept in that the day sect planets find their joys in houses above the earth, and night sect planets find them under the earth.

You noticed...good for you.

Initially I thought the same thing. But then you have Saturn which is cold and dry, which domicles in cold and dry Capricorn. And Aries hot/dry which domicles in hot/dry Aries.

There are Sign Joys. Obviously, Saturn Joys in Aquarius, and not Capricorn; Jupiter in Sagittarius and not Pisces; Venus in Taurus and not Libra; etc etc.

Both are malefics, and then there's the Sun and Moon which are "neutral" in terms of good/bad, but both domicle in signs that double the energies they naturally have.

Sun is not "neutral." Like Mercury, Sun is an Accidental, meaning Sun or Mercury either Accidental Benefics, or Accidental Malefics.

Sun or Mercury applying to any Retrograde Planet are automatically impeded and become Accidental Malefics --- unless the Retrograde Planet receives Sun or Mercury.

Moon is truly neutral, but Moon is either Fortunate, or Unfortunate, and a Fortunate Moon joined or applying to a Planet helps the Planet, while an Unfortunate Moon joined to or applying to a Planet causes harm.

There are some 16 special conditions that define Moon as Fortunate/Unfortunate.

Yeah, it's a pretty wacky schema really, the more you look, the more you find strange inconsistencies which don't make sense.

Actually they do make sense.

In the sect concept, Mars is considered better when cooled and moistened by being in a water sign, in a night chart, or under the earth. Saturn is 'better' when warmed and moistened.

Yes, of course.

Saturn and Mars are inherently Malefic, but that does not mean they cannot do good or provide help. They can, and they do better when they are in-Sect.

I previously addressed one component of a Planet's condition, and that is whether the Planet is Fortunate or Unfortunate.

Another component is Sect, which tells you how capable a Planet is to perform the task it has been given in the chart.

The Sect doctrine is confusing, and the Sect Ruler doctrine is totally FUBAR, but this is what to look at:

Sun -- is not automatically in-Sect in a Day Chart. Sun is in-Sect only if one of the following conditions is met:

1] Sun in 10th, 11th or 12th Houses = Masculine Quadrant
2] If Sun is not in Quadrant I, then Sun must be in the 7th or 9th Houses, which are in the Feminine Quadrant, but those Houses are Masculine.
3] If Sun is in the 8th House, then Sun must be in a Masculine Sign.

In order for Sun to be in Hayz, Sun must meet two of the previous conditions.

1] Sun in Quadrant I and in 11th House
2] Sun in Quadrant I and in 10th or 12th Houses and in Masculine Sign
3] Sun in 7th House and Masculine Sign
4] Sun in 9th House and Masculine Sign.

Sun can never be in Hayz in the 8th House.

Moon is not automatically in-Sect in a Night Chart. Like Sun, Moon must meet certain criteria and is in-Sect:

1] Moon Above Earth in a Night Chart.
2] Moon in the 1st, 2nd or 3rd Houses in a Day or Night Chart.
3] Moon in the 5th House in a Day or Night Chart.
4] Moon in the 10th or 12th Houses in a Day Chart
5] Moon in the 8th in a Day Chart

Moon is in Hayz when it meets a second condition, namely being in-Sect and then also being in a Feminine Quadrant, House or Sign.

In a Night Chart, Moon can never be in Hayz in the 5th House.

A Planet in-Sect is competent to perform the assigned tasks (Wealth, Health, Children, Death, Relationships etc).

A Planet in Hazy is very competent.

Jupiter in-Sect or in Hazy, and also in a Masculine Degree/Quadrant is that much more competent.

A Planet not in-Sect is barely competent, and a Planet Out-of-Sect is totally incompetent, and again that's modified slightly by Degree/Quadrant.

An Unfortunate Planet that is Out-of-Sect is like a freaking Greek Tragedy.

A Fortunate Planet Out-of-Sect is like Charlie Chaplin, or Peter Sellars in those Pink Panther films, or Chris Rock in those Jackie Chan films. Or what's the British expression: "It's a fair cop" -- getting the right result the wrong way.

This discussion has helped me hugely. I took another look at dignity and re-found that mixed reception alleviates a planet from peregrination, so some of my planets are now alleviated:

I think you're hallucinating here.



Mutual Reception - poorly dignified can escape.

Mars: Jupiter and Mars in each other's face

Mercury: Mars in the term of Mercury, Mercury
in the face and triplicy of Mars

Moon: in joy in 3rd house

Jupiter: Venus is in Jupiter's face and Jupiter
is in Venus' term

These are the receptions of only the planets I was concerned about. So now I have no peregrine planets...(?) ...

No, you still have Peregrine Planets...until you can move Heaven & Earth.

Actually you can mix dignities, it's still called mutual reception (mixed), perhaps you're not familiar with it but it in fact exists.

This is a good resource though I've read this clearly in 50 places.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig6.html

"Receptions are a type of aspect in classical astrology; they occur when one planet rules a dignity (Rulership, Exaltation, Triplicity, Term or Face) of another planet."

http://astro-horoscopes.com/ask-kevin/classical-astrology/107-mutual-reception.html

If I've mis-applied something, possibly, but the above statement is clear as day - mutual reception IS NOT limited to sign of rulership or exaltation.

You misunderstand Reception.

Reception is about one Planet receiving another, and by receiving that Planet, it is being given the ability to act; to perform etc.

A Planet that is not received is impeded, because it is being denied permission to act.

If you are applying in aspect to me, and I am not receiving you, then I am denying you the opportunity to speak; to move freely; to take the stage; to perform your job....in other words....

"Sit down, have a Coke and a smile and shut up."

Another quote which makes this clear:

"Planets can also be in mutual reception by any of the other dignities, too: exaltation, triplicity, term, and face. They can be mixed, too. Saturn in Libra, and Venus at 29° Scorpio receive each other by sign and term, which can help mitigate Venus' weakness in the sign of its detriment."

http://mithras93.tripod.com/lessons/lesson7/index.html

Also, which author says that one must use a planet with a minimum of 3 dignity? Sources are good, they reveal credibility.

That's an horrid web-site filled with false and misleading info.

Astrology is full of hierarchies, and Reception is no exception, and neither is Mutual Reception. The hierarchy (strongest to weakest) for Mutual Reception:

1] Exaltation to Exaltation
2] Exaltation to Domicile
3] Domicile to Domicile
4] Domicile to Triplicity and Bound
5] Domicile to Triplicity and Face
6] Triplicity and Bound to Triplicity and Bound
7] Triplicity and Bound to Triplicity [I]and Face
8] Triplicity and Face to Triplicity and Face

No such thing as Mutual Reception by Face or Bound or Triplicity.

The hierarchy of Dignity is

1] Domicile (disputed some texts say Exaltation)
2] Exaltation (disputed some texts say Domicile)
3] Triplicity
4] Bound
5] Face

Peregrine is no Dignity.

Triplicity is disputed as well. Dorothean Triplicity is based on Sect. Why are Sun, Jupiter and Saturn the Fire Triplicity Rulers? Because Aries, Leo and Sagittarius are Diurnal Signs, and Sun, Jupiter and Saturn are Diurnal Planets.

Logically, then, Earth Signs are ruled by Nocturnal Planets -- Venus, Moon and Mars, since Capricorn, Virgo and Taurus are Nocturnal Signs.

I find Ptolemy's Ptriplicities to be stupid, if not illogical.

I'm still investigating Morin's system; it's more logical than Ptolemy's.

Same is true for Bounds.

I use Egyptian Bounds, but there's a nice paper by one of the Russians on that (not Cornilev the other one)/

The Egyptian Bound system is a product of two things, well, three things actually: the Egyptian Calendar System, the Egyptian numerical system -- which was Base 10 and not Base 60, and Latitude.

As bizarre as it may seem, Sumerians attributed their calendar system of 360 Days plus 5 intercalated days to a "lofty one" -- a so-called "serpent god" whose symbol was the caduceus (two serpents intertwined around the Tree of Life) and who carried a red and white striped staff (like a Barber Pole), and they called him Ningishzida. The Egyptians claimed their 365 Day Calendar was given to them by Thoth, -- a so-called "serpent god" whose symbol was the caduceus (two serpents intertwined around the Tree of Life) and who carried a red and white striped staff (like a Barber Pole). Meanwhile, in Meso-America, numerous tribal groups claim they were given their calendar system of intercalating 5 and 20 days by a so-called "serpent god" whose symbol was the caduceus (two serpents intertwined around the Tree of Life) and who carried a red and white striped staff (like a Barber Pole), and whom they called Quetzalcoatl.

Anyway, the point is that the Egyptian Bound system changes, and Ptolemy not being able to understand that, created his very own Ptolemy's Pterms.

To calculate Egyptian Bounds, you must...

1] find the Vernal Equinox Point for your Latitude
2] divide the chart into 10 sections of 36°
3] assign the Planets.

Since the Major Years of a Planet are based on Bounds, that means if you're using the Hyleg/Alcocoden system, it's FUBAR.

And this....

"They can be mixed, too. Saturn in Libra, and Venus at 29° Scorpio receive each other by sign and term, which can help mitigate Venus' weakness in the sign of its detriment."

...is totally wrong.

1] Saturn and Venus are in aversion.
2] a Nocturnal Saturn is not going to help Venus
3] Saturn in Libra will be most likely Retrograde if Sun is side-opposite, which won't help Venus
4] a Nocturnal Retrograde Saturn certainly won't help Venus
5] a Saturn at 29° Libra would be in an Empty Pitted Degree, which would make Saturn very angry, and not help Venus.
6] if Saturn is Via Combusta that ain't gonna help either

The number is so high because you counted the accidental dignities. The planet can't be peregrine if it's in fall.

You might want to rethink that.

Wouldn't the Sun be somewhat safe if located near 23 degrees Libra, where then even though fall and peregrine, the sun would be conjunct Spica?

Exactly. Although the Sun when located at 23º Libra is in Fall and Peregrine yet theoretically protected by the powerful and benefic fixed star Spica NEVERTHELESS each chart is different: no planet can be taken in isolation: so, if a 23º Libra Sun is also parallel in declination with another planet such as Mars in aspect with other planets conjunct malefic fixed stars the situation alters. The totality of influences must be considered :smile:

Yes, not only the Sun, but any Planet at 23° Libra.

However, being at 23° Libra only negates the effect of Via Combusta, and nothing more.

The Sun is still debilitated in Libra.

Spica is Venus/Mars, so to affect Sun it would require Sun to be in aspect with Venus or Mars, or be assembled with Venus or Mars.


The list goes on and there are many related considerations. Can anyone tell how traditional/ancient this is? Anyone have much interest or experience of this?

Looks like somebody cooked it up yesterday.

I found this alarming (and perhaps very helpful) because it would release from peregrination three 'problem' planets in my chart. :innocent:

Sigh....you're not getting it.

A Peregrine Planet is Peregrine....period.

If you have three Peregrine Planets in your chart, then you have three Peregrine Planets and that's the end of the story.

Reception will either shackle or enable.

The only thing worse than being Peregrine is being Peregrine and not received, because that places severe restrictions on the Planet....effectively imprisoned.


Chris makes other interesting points in the rest of the article that I tend to agree with, but this is already a very long post. I'll try to wrap this up quickly. Observe the balance of symbolism in astrology:

Ascendant - Sunrise - East - Birth - Spring - Hot/Wet - Air
Zenith - Noon - South - Life - Summer - Hot/Dry - Fire
Descendant - Sunset - West - Death - Autumn - Cold/Dry - Earth
Nadir - Midnight - North - Afterlife - Winter - Cold/Wet - Water

And there you see Chris' mistake. He assumes that because the ancients say Mars rules the water triplicity, and because it is located in the triad containing the descendant, then the descendant must be related to water. This is wrong, as you can see. The descendant is earth, and the nadir is water, which makes Mars the night ruler of earth.

I like it.

The problem as I see it is that the Diurnal Planets are Masculine, while the Nocturnal Planets are Feminine.

And then we have Mars who is Masculine and Nocturnal.

This conflict with Masculine/Nocturnal has caused lots of problems over the centuries.

My argument in support of you is that Capricorn is Nocturnal, Feminine, Earth, and yet Mars is Exalted.

How can Mars be Exalted in Capricorn and not be an Earth Triplicity Ruler?

Now to the other, bigger mistake. Mercury, the hermaphrodite, is two in one. He joys on the horizon in the 1st; he sorrows on the horizon in the 7th. However, if we place him simultaneously in the 7th, earth, our arrangement becomes balanced:

12,1,2 - Saturn, Mercury, next closest is Jupiter in the 11th - Air
3,4,5 - Moon, Venus, next closest is Mars in the 6th - Water
6,7,8 - Mars, Mercury, next closest is Venus in the 5th - Earth
9,10,11 - Sun, Jupiter, next closest is Saturn in the 12th - Fire

Hopefully this makes sense to other people. I realize it's a bit of a jump but I really think this is what we are supposed to see. Here is the beauty:

Fire - Sun, Jupiter, Saturn
Earth - Mercury, Mars, Venus
Air - Saturn, Mercury, Jupiter
Water - Venus, Moon, Mars

-Each luminary rules only once, the Sun at day in fire, the Moon at night in water, fitting with their natures as king and queen.

-Mercury rules twice, day and night, in opposite elements of earth and air, masculine and feminine, fitting with it's nature, and is the only planet to do so, being the only double-natured one.

-Saturn rules air by day, where his cold and dryness are tempered, and fire, where his cold is tempered. (Saturn being primarily cold, secondarily dry.)

-Mars rules earth by night, where his heat is tempered, and water, where his heat and dryness are tempered. (Mars being primarily hot, secondarily dry.)

-Jupiter rules fire by night, where his moisture is tempered, while out of sect, and air, which is his nature. (Jupiter being primarily moist, secondarily hot.)

-Venus rules water by day, which is her nature, while out of sect, and earth, where her moisture is tempered. (Venus being primarily moist, secondarily cold.)

-Saturn and Jupiter balance each other in both fire and air, the masculine, diurnal elements. They are joined by the Sun, the other diurnal planet, and Mercury.

-Mars and Venus balance each other in both earth and water, the feminine, nocturnal elements. They are joined by the Moon, the other nocturnal planet, and Mercury.

-The day rulers consist of a benefic, a malefic, a luminary, and Mercury.

-The night rulers consist of a benefic, a malefic, a luminary, and Mercury.

-The cooperating rulers consist of both benefics and both malefics.

I could go on, but I won't. I apologize for the lengthy and somewhat off-topic post; if you made it this far, thanks for reading!

Uh, that's awesome.

The other thing I would point out is that Sun/Moon each rule only one Sign, so I think it is fitting that they only have rule over one Triplicity (Sun/Fire and Moon/Water).

Something else to support you....Moon rules water, and all liquids. I just can't see Moon as an Earth Triplicity Ruler.

eternalautumn
07-23-2013, 05:43 PM
I like it.

The problem as I see it is that the Diurnal Planets are Masculine, while the Nocturnal Planets are Feminine.

And then we have Mars who is Masculine and Nocturnal.

This conflict with Masculine/Nocturnal has caused lots of problems over the centuries.

My argument in support of you is that Capricorn is Nocturnal, Feminine, Earth, and yet Mars is Exalted.

How can Mars be Exalted in Capricorn and not be an Earth Triplicity Ruler?

The only solution I can think of is that one of the male planets is actually a female, but I'm afraid to even talk about it after the poopstorm that was unleashed last time I brought it up.

Uh, that's awesome.

The other thing I would point out is that Sun/Moon each rule only one Sign, so I think it is fitting that they only have rule over one Triplicity (Sun/Fire and Moon/Water).

Something else to support you....Moon rules water, and all liquids. I just can't see Moon as an Earth Triplicity Ruler.

I'm glad someone else thinks so! Thanks! Good points. I agree about the Moon. To have it rule earth is one thing, but then to only PARTICIPATE in the water triplicity? The nerve.

Kaiousei no Senshi
07-23-2013, 05:47 PM
Eternalautumn,

Natural Place is not about elemental qualities (hot, cold, wet, dry), but something more akin to a theory of gravity.

In the triplicity rulership scheme dervied from the joys that he presents, air is east, opposite water, and fire is south, opposite earth, following neither natural place nor the Stoic method.

That's following Natural Place exactly. Each element is where it is in terms of weight and motion (which more closely mimics diurnal motion), which is different when compared with quality or seasonal affiliation. It's not that air and water oppose and they can't do that because they are share the moist quality, but they oppose because air naturally rises and water naturally falls, the same is true for fire (who has naturally risen) and earth (who has naturally fallen). They're just comparing different information from a different philosophical idea that was more prevalent around that time.


I'm honestly 99% sure that my correction is correct. The elements are balanced this way. The two hot elements, air and fire, are adjacent and opposite the two cold elements, earth and water. The two dry elements, fire and earth are adjacent and opposite the two wet elements, water and air.

Calm down, Morin. You're missing the point of the figure. Earth does not sit on top of Water.


How can Mars be Exalted in Capricorn and not be an Earth Triplicity Ruler?

How can Jupiter be exalted in Cancer and not be a Water Triplicity Ruler?

eternalautumn
07-23-2013, 08:14 PM
Kai, read the article again, specifically the sections "Connecting the Joys and Triplicty Lords to the Four Elements" and "Adoption vs. Lack of Adoption of the Elemental Scheme".

First Chris tells us that the scheme as presented imitates the doctrine of natural place. Fire at the top, air on the left, earth on the bottom, water on the right. Then he says the Stoics borrowed the doctrine of natural place from Aristotle. Fine. Then we learn that Ptolemy did not use this triplicity scheme (which imitates Aristotle's doctrine of natural place) because it went against Aristotle's other doctrine of elements where they are contrasted by their qualities; hot fire opposes cold water, moist air opposes dry earth. And then we come to this paragraph:

Aristotle’s entire approach to the elements is predicated on the notion that these are contrasting qualities that sit on opposite sides of a spectrum, and that “the elements all involve a contrariety in their mutual relations because their distinctive qualities are contrary.” The element-triplicity scheme that appears to be derived from the joys is problematic from an Aristotelian perspective because it makes it so that the fire signs are literally opposite to the air signs in the zodiac, and the earth signs are literally opposite to the water signs. If the zodiacal assignments were to follow the Aristotelian scheme then the fire signs should be opposite to the water signs in the zodiac, and the air signs should be opposite to the earth signs. Instead, the element-triplicity scheme that first appears in Valens follows a model that was advocated by a rival philosophical school, the Stoics. In the Stoic system air is conceptualized as cold, and it is opposite to fire which is hot, while water is said to be moist, and it is opposite to earth which is dry. This matches the arrangement of the signs according to the element-triplicity model derived from the joys, and in fact the Stoic model of the qualities is explicitly ascribed to the elements by Valens, who described air as being cold and water as being moist....Yeah.

Kai, can you show me any other examples of the doctrine of natural place being utilized in astrology?

PS: Don't call me a Morin just because you're air for the article's author. :)

dr. farr
07-24-2013, 03:40 AM
One of the things which led me to consider that there was a relationship between the allocation of planetary joys and the allocation of planetary sect, was the doctrine of Paulus Alexandrianus (350 AD) that the joys of Saturn and Mars were dependant upon the chart being diurnal or nocturnal-Paulus teaches that Saturn's joy is the 12th house IF (and only if) it is a day chart, and that Mar's joy is the 6th house IF it is a night chart. This teaching started me thinking that there was a connection between the allocation of joys and sect.

Elementally considered, with the Saturn 12th/Jupiter 11th/Sun 9th joys, we have the elements Earth, Air and Fire as diurnal-how can Earth be considered as resonant with day, light and warmth? With the Manilius joys we have Jupiter/Venus/Sun-Air, Water and Fire, and with the Manilius joys connected with night we find Moon, Saturn and Mars-Water, EARTH and Fire (with the other system the night has an elemental imbalance-2 Water elements-Moon + Venus-plus Fire) Earth (Saturn) seems more resonant with coolness and darkness (night) than with daylight and warmth.

With the Manilius joys we find the 2 benefics by day (Venus and Jupiter), the 2 "malefics" by night (Saturn and Mars) Looking at the houses of sorrow (the opposite of the allocated houses of joy) can give some insight: with the generally accepted schema (since the time of Valens and perhaps earlier) Venus house of sorrow would be the 11th, and Jupiter's house of sorrow would be the 5th: the 11th is the house of joy of the greater benefic Jupiter-how could it be the house of sorrow for another benefic, the lesser benefic Venus? The 6th house would be the house of sorrow for Saturn, and the 12th house the house of sorrow for Mars-how could houses which are resonant to one malefic be dissonant to another malefic? In the Manilius (and, as I believe, the earlier Hellenist) schema, with Saturn in the 4th and Venus in the 10th, we can easily see why the opposite houses would be the sorrow of each planet: here, Saturn sorrows in the 10th, which (here) is the house resonant with the benefic Venus; and Venus sorrows in the 4th, which (here in the Manilius schema) is the house resonant with the malefic Saturn. The relationships of houses of joy vs houses of sorrow, is another reason that the Manilius schema of planetary joys makes more sense to me (than what I consider to be the later planetary joy/sorrow schema which dominated Hellenist practice possibly from the beginning of the 2nd century AD)

(NOTE: I am NOT trying to advocate Manilius or convince anyone of anything regarding the historical doctrines allocating planetary joys or the sect of planets-actually I consider planetary joys and sect only minor considerations in delineation:surprised: Just explaining my reasons for the outlook I have regarding these issues)

dr. farr
07-24-2013, 04:29 AM
I'm pretty sure Manilius doesn't list the planetary ruler scheme we know of and instead has one that links the Sun with Gemini, the Moon with Sagittarius, etc, etc.

Actually Manilius makes no reference whatsoever to the planetary rulerships of signs.

Kaiousei no Senshi
07-24-2013, 04:29 AM
PS: Don't call me a Morin just because you're air for the article's author.

I'm not. I'm calling you Morin because your triplicity scheme is off philosophically. You're still trying to conflate natural place and the qualities of the elements when they aren't the same concept. I'm also really taken aback by the hypocrisy in this statement. I'm "air for the article's author" while you're wanking your own fan theory, but you're trying to play it off as if there is bias on my part, but not yours? That's not going to fly here.

Ptolemy's triplicity scheme is only different from the Dorothean scheme in two ways 1) there is no participatory ruler 2) Mars rules water both by day and night. This doesn't contradict the natural place scheme.

The issue that Chris is discussing here is that Ptolemy does not relate the signs of the zodiac to the elements because their oppositional pairs go against the Aristotelian elemental qualities, but instead appear to favor the Stoic model.

I'm not sure what the issue here is, because the two ideas are distinct, though related by both being ideas attributed to Aristotle. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding.

tsmall
07-24-2013, 05:29 AM
I just love conversations like this. :biggrin:

I started one a while back but then got distracted by trying learn astrology.

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52099

Here is my little tiny idea to toss into the mix (and eternalautumn, I am completely familiar with the article you referenced.) Are we not perhaps trying to force a left shoe onto a right foot? Isn't that what happened to the Pterrible Ptolemy in the first place?

Which is older, the joys and exaltations or the Stoic/Aristotelian/Hermetic/Judean/worldphilosphyofthemoment view?

I initially read that article because I wanted to learn more about the joys and so Kai was gracious enough to share it with me...and it turns out that the article is really trying to find a reason for the triplicity rulers.

To really understand where Chris is coming from, it would help to read this other article...

http://www.chrisbrennanastrologer.com/Brennan-Theoretical-Rationale.pdf

What I find to be key here isn't the rationale so much as the ideas of emitting and receiving. If we stop playing rock, paper, scissors around the chart, we need to ask a few more questions. What came first, the signs, or the attributes associated to them? When we decided which planets were nocturnal and which were diurnal by nature, what was the rationale underlying that? Sun, ok, because hello, Sun decides day or night...unlike Moon who seems to want to be anywhere in the sky when she feels like it (often I've pointed to a very pretty Moon in a day sky and said "out of sect.") But at night it is the light of the Moon that decides if you can see where you are going or not. Jupiter in the day? Sure, I guess. Saturn in the day makes tons of sense because Saturn needs all the warmth he can get. Venus by night also makes sense, because this is Venus we are talking about. Venus' nature is to reconcile and unify. Actually, we have very good definitions of the nature of all of the planets.

The Sun’s nature is to select
The Moon’s nature is to gather and include
Mercury’s nature is to contest and to destabilize
Venus’ nature is to reconcile and to unify
Mars’ nature is to sever and to separate
Jupiter’s nature is to confirm and stabilize
Saturn’s nature is to reject and exclude

If most of ancient astrology is based on observations then at night the cooling temperatures allowed dew to collect on grass and objects, bringing together like with unlike.

The only solution I can think of is that one of the male planets is actually a female, but I'm afraid to even talk about it after the poopstorm that was unleashed last time I brought it up.

If the planet you mean is the one I'm thinking of, I'm in total agreement.

And then we have Mars who is Masculine and Nocturnal.

This conflict with Masculine/Nocturnal has caused lots of problems over the centuries.

No kidding. What works better for people in general, Mars in a sign that tempers his nature, or Mars as a masculine planet? Mars may prefer Aries, but I sure don't prefer Aries for Mars.

How can Mars be Exalted in Capricorn and not be an Earth Triplicity Ruler?

Maybe this is why Dorotheus included him as participating trip ruler?

How can Jupiter be exalted in Cancer and not be a Water Triplicity Ruler?

Maybe because the exaltations haven't got a thing to do with triplicity rulers? Because perhaps the exaltations have more to do with something older?

Let's really look at joys and exaltations.

Sun is exalted in Aries, ruled by Mars. Oh, wow, in the Thema Aries is the 10th, the Sun is the king, and the 10th is associated with what? And how exactly does the Sun keep power? Sun joys in 9th (the house of the god) and the 9th in the Thema is Pisces (does anyone else see the correleation here between the sign of the fishes and Christianity?) which is ruled by Jupiter, the greater benefic. Sun falls in the exaltation of Saturn, which again makes sense looking at the Thema, since Saturn is like the antethisis of the Sun.


Moon is exalted in Taurus (an Earth sign, for those watching..why? Because without Moon to counter balance Sun, life on Earth wouldn't even exist.) Taurus represents all the little critters that have ever evolved on Earth (how many times in my journies have I been reminded that Taurus rules animials?) Taurus is ruled by Venus, the divine godess, and Taurus in the Thema is the 11th sign...the one that provides all the resources to support the king. Let's be fey and substitute "king" for most dominant species on the planet....


Moon falls in Scorpio, which is the 5th in the Thema. Oh, wow. That's a prolific sign that rules children. And is ruled by Mars. What exactly is the population of humans on the Earth today?

Mercury (aka Hermes, or even Thoth in older texts) is as already described, an hermaphrodite. He is the only planet exalted in an house that he also rules, and Mercury is also everywhere said to represent the rational mind. He joys in the 1st house of Cancer, which is also represented as the primal, or reactive mind (and I'm pretty sure this is confirmed in traditional texts, since we want Merc, Moon, and the ruler of the 12th for mental illness.) Virgo is the 3rd in the Thema...and the third is the what? Neighbors, cousins, the people you are forced to associate with by tribe, and even in modern astrology..the development of the mind/early education. Why does Mercury get the years of rulership from what? I'm messing it up here, but does Moon get to age 4, and then Mercury after? If we wanted to determine prejudice from a chart, what house would we look to?

Venus Joys in the 5th..and in the Thema, the 5th is Scorpio, which rules among other things reproduction. Further, Venus is exalted in the 9th, Pisces, ruled by Jupiter (the planet of what? Er, pregnancy and childbirth.) Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the Earth. Oh, heck yeah. Just in typing this eploratation I'm wondering about what happened to the dinosaurs. What exactly is the population of humans on planet Earth today?

Mars. Ok, Mars is exalted in Capricorn, ruled by Saturn, but it is an Earth sign. Saturn is a malefic, and Mars is a malefic...why of all the exaltations and joys is one malefic (the nature of Mars is to sever and separate) exalted in the house/sign of another. Mars joys in the 6th according to tradition, which in the Thema means that Mars joys in Sagittarius, a sign of Jupiter. Mars is exalted in the 7th house of open enemies and in what degree? A degree that is classified as masculine, dark, and lame.

I need to go to bed. Because I thought I was replying to one idea, and found another instead.

What if, in addition to the birth of humanity, the Thema contains the seeds of humanity's destruction as well?

dr. farr
07-24-2013, 05:37 AM
Good points about the Thema Mundi-I think many answers are hidden therein.

eternalautumn
07-24-2013, 10:36 AM
I'm not. I'm calling you Morin because your triplicity scheme is off philosophically. You're still trying to conflate natural place and the qualities of the elements when they aren't the same concept. I'm also really taken aback by the hypocrisy in this statement. I'm "air for the article's author" while you're wanking your own fan theory, but you're trying to play it off as if there is bias on my part, but not yours? That's not going to fly here.

I know why you called me Morin, and you're wrong. However I was just trying to make a cute little joke; I apologize if it offended you. What I'm really trying to say is that I can see how Chris, Robert Schmidt, Ben Dykes, and most everyone else back to Dorotheus can "see" the doctrine of natural place in the joy scheme. But consensus doesn't make something true, just easy. I don't think it's the correct philosophical lens. Viewing the joy scheme in this alternative way (which happens to agree with [I'm fairly certain] almost all other symbolism) produces something that is more logical, more beautiful, and uses the same basic method for it's determination. I don't even think natural place and the earth west point/water south point alternative triplicity scheme have to cancel each other out necessarily. It just requires looking at the joy scheme in a different way, which happens to be one that goes against the triplicity scheme that we know and love, which happens to be what the article is trying to connect to the joy scheme. Also, I'm aware of my narcissism and the fact that it flows from a void in my soul filled with self-hatred, so pointing it out isn't very effective in hurting me. I thought the smiley face would help indicate the joke. Perhaps you misunderstood.

Ptolemy's triplicity scheme is only different from the Dorothean scheme in two ways 1) there is no participatory ruler 2) Mars rules water both by day and night. This doesn't contradict the natural place scheme.

The issue that Chris is discussing here is that Ptolemy does not relate the signs of the zodiac to the elements because their oppositional pairs go against the Aristotelian elemental qualities, but instead appear to favor the Stoic model.

I'm not sure what the issue here is, because the two ideas are distinct, though related by both being ideas attributed to Aristotle. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding.

Perhaps I misunderstood. I find his writing style difficult. My other points still stand.

eternalautumn
07-24-2013, 10:54 AM
I just love conversations like this. :biggrin:

As do I.

Here is my little tiny idea to toss into the mix (and eternalautumn, I am completely familiar with the article you referenced.) Are we not perhaps trying to force a left shoe onto a right foot? Isn't that what happened to the Pterrible Ptolemy in the first place?

A fair point.

I initially read that article because I wanted to learn more about the joys and so Kai was gracious enough to share it with me...and it turns out that the article is really trying to find a reason for the triplicity rulers.

Do you disagree that the triplicity rulers can be inferred from the joys?

What I find to be key here isn't the rationale so much as the ideas of emitting and receiving. If we stop playing rock, paper, scissors around the chart, we need to ask a few more questions. What came first, the signs, or the attributes associated to them? When we decided which planets were nocturnal and which were diurnal by nature, what was the rationale underlying that? Sun, ok, because hello, Sun decides day or night...unlike Moon who seems to want to be anywhere in the sky when she feels like it (often I've pointed to a very pretty Moon in a day sky and said "out of sect.") But at night it is the light of the Moon that decides if you can see where you are going or not. Jupiter in the day? Sure, I guess. Saturn in the day makes tons of sense because Saturn needs all the warmth he can get. Venus by night also makes sense, because this is Venus we are talking about. Venus' nature is to reconcile and unify. Actually, we have very good definitions of the nature of all of the planets.

I appreciate your perspective but without some sort of philosophical skeleton, how can we have a precise astrology?

If the planet you mean is the one I'm thinking of, I'm in total agreement.

Tell me yours and I'll tell you mine.

I need to go to bed. Because I thought I was replying to one idea, and found another instead.

But isn't that the best?

What if, in addition to the birth of humanity, the Thema contains the seeds of humanity's destruction as well?

Isn't that implied, being the nativity of the world?

I found your entire post quite stimulating. Thanks.

JUPITERASC
07-24-2013, 12:50 PM
I just love conversations like this. :biggrin:

I started one a while back but then got distracted by trying learn astrology.

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52099

Likewise

Dignity = Comfort Zone

Many older sources use the Family Analogy to describe this Comfort Zone related to Dignity.

An Exalted Planet is like being in its own kingdom, being "da mayor" in your community or neighborhood. Think of the popes (and there were several) who would rape women in broad daylight in front of horrified on-lookers....and no one did anything about it.....that's Exalted, though in a bad way and not a good way.

In business, being Exalted would be like being the president or CEO of a company
Useful analogy

......more often than not the texts themselves are very confusing, in particular because they often use words interchangeably, or they were (mis)translated as such, most notably terms such as "strength" and "power."

Anyway, you have to develop your own procedure or methodology....that would be part of the individual style thing....so long as it's thorough (so you don't over-look anything). To do that, you'll have to evaluate a Planet's condition, and there are several components of a Planet's condition.

One is whether a Planet is Fortunate or Unfortunate. Malefic/Benefic is an internal characteristic of the Planet....you can never change that, but you can modify it through external factors, which is what being Fortunate or Unfortunate is all about
Then an Exalted planet in its own kingdom but Cadent is 'fortunate' due to being Exalted
BUT
- due to being Cadent
is nevertheless 'unfortunate' because modified regarding 'strength' and 'power' aka ability to act

I previously addressed one component of a Planet's condition, and that is whether the Planet is Fortunate or Unfortunate.

Another component is Sect, which tells you how capable a Planet is to perform the task it has been given in the chart.

The Sect doctrine is confusing, and the Sect Ruler doctrine is totally FUBAR, but this is what to look at:

Sun -- is not automatically in-Sect in a Day Chart. Sun is in-Sect only if one of the following conditions is met:

1] Sun in 10th, 11th or 12th Houses = Masculine Quadrant
2] If Sun is not in Quadrant I, then Sun must be in the 7th or 9th Houses, which are in the Feminine Quadrant, but those Houses are Masculine.
3] If Sun is in the 8th House, then Sun must be in a Masculine Sign.
1] Sun in 10th, 11th or 12th Houses = Masculine Quadrant
BUT
12th House is Cadent
SO Sun is modified regarding ability to act
so being in a Masculine Quadrant in that case does not exclude Sun from from being 'unfortunate' when Sun is in 12th

1] Sun in 10th, 11th or 12th Houses = Masculine Quadrant
2] If Sun is not in Quadrant I, then Sun must be in the 7th or 9th Houses, which are in the Feminine Quadrant, but those Houses are Masculine.
3] If Sun is in the 8th House, then Sun must be in a Masculine Sign.

In order for Sun to be in Hayz, Sun must meet two of the previous conditions.

1] Sun in Quadrant I and in 11th House
2] Sun in Quadrant I and in 10th or 12th Houses and in Masculine Sign
3] Sun in 7th House and Masculine Sign
4] Sun in 9th House and Masculine Sign.

Sun can never be in Hayz in the 8th House.
When Sun is
2] Sun in Quadrant I and in 10th or 12th Houses and in Masculine Sign
and so in Hayz
and therefore 'considered very competent to act'
YET
12th house is 'unfortunate' and modifies ANY planet's ability to act
SO
Sun is not very competent to act when in 12th and in Masculine Sign
yet Sun is in Hayz DESPITE not being very competent to act

A Planet in-Sect is competent to perform the assigned tasks (Wealth, Health, Children, Death, Relationships etc).

A Planet in Hazy is very competent
Yet an In-Sect Sun in 12th in Masculine sign is nevertheless Cadent and so is NOT very competent to act

A Planet not in-Sect is barely competent, and a Planet Out-of-Sect is totally incompetent,
So 'a Planet not in-sect' is a completely different category from 'a Planet Out-of-Sect'
and again that's modified slightly by Degree/Quadrant
Such as Sun in 12th in a masculine sign

An Unfortunate Planet that is Out-of-Sect is like a freaking Greek Tragedy.

A Fortunate Planet Out-of-Sect is like Charlie Chaplin, or Peter Sellars in those Pink Panther films, or Chris Rock in those Jackie Chan films. Or what's the British expression: "It's a fair cop" -- getting the right result the wrong way
So Sun in 12th in Masculine Sign is a Fortunate Planet and In-Sect yet somehow unable to act - the film analogies are excellent - which film is that?

Same is true for Bounds.

I use Egyptian Bounds, but there's a nice paper by one of the Russians on that (not Cornilev the other one)
Albert Timashev
http://astrologer.ru/article/mey.html.en For all interested in ancient astrological techniques :smile:

THE FOLLOWING IS A QUOTE from an article by Russian Astrologer Albert Timashev, which he wrote in 2000:


"Many fundamental techniques and methods of ancient astrology are generally unknown to modern astrologers because they were lost as a result of a scientific revolution of the 17th century which claimed astrology was a pseudo-science.

One fundamental basis of astrology is the system of terms - the division of the ecliptic into 60 unequal sectors by 5 sectors per each sign of the zodiac - and the major Egyptian years directly following from terms"

SOURCE: http://astrologer.ru/article/mey.html.en



Nevertheless, Timashev deserves credit for having provided important data which shines considerable light on the rationale of the 'original ancient now apparently lost terms'

QUOTE:

“...CONCLUSIONS
Main conclusion that follows from the received reconstruction is the necessity of complete recalculation of system of major years and system of terms individually for each latitude, as the primary system was constructed for Thebes and is applicable with relatively small errors (less than 2 years) in a very narrow range of latitudes - approximately from 22° to 29° of northern latitude only.

This fact completely explains why the Egyptian system of lifetime determination doesn't work at all in the latitudes outside the mentioned interval, including Alexandria - the center of the Greek astrological school....”

“...Other important conclusion is that the ancient Egyptian astrologers used 10 signs zodiac closely connected with system of decans.

The third important conclusion is that the rulers of the signs of the zodiac were only the planets - wandering stars. The Sun and Moon apparently took special place in Egyptian astrology. Probably, the stars and only the stars (wandering and fixed) were considered in charge of the destiny of the men. And Sun and Moon, most likely, were considered as setting the rhythm, measuring the time when things determined by the decree of the stars should happen...”

“...In closing it would be useful to note, that we have found the solution for the first stage of the construction of the system of terms and we have approached to reconstruction of an ancient astrological system only by a half-step.

In the future we have to do a great job on the reconstruction of the rules of determination of the order and length of terms of the planets, and also on the reconstruction of the system of decans....”

BobZemco
07-29-2013, 05:01 AM
I see that I have thoroughly confused everyone. Super. Let me see if I can untangle my mess here. Then an Exalted planet in its own kingdom but Cadent is 'fortunate' due to being Exalted BUT - due to being Cadent is nevertheless 'unfortunate' because modified regarding 'strength' and 'power' aka ability to act 1] Sun in 10th, 11th or 12th Houses = Masculine Quadrant BUT 12th House is Cadent SO Sun is modified regarding ability to act so being in a Masculine Quadrant in that case does not exclude Sun from from being 'unfortunate' when Sun is in 12th When Sun is 2] Sun in Quadrant I and in 10th or 12th Houses and in Masculine Sign and so in Hayz and therefore 'considered very competent to act' YET 12th house is 'unfortunate' and modifies ANY planet's ability to act SO Sun is not very competent to act when in 12th and in Masculine Sign yet Sun is in Hayz DESPITE not being very competent to act Yet an In-Sect Sun in 12th in Masculine sign is nevertheless Cadent and so is NOT very competent to act So 'a Planet not in-sect' is a completely different category from 'a Planet Out-of-Sect' Such as Sun in 12th in a masculine sign So Sun in 12th in Masculine Sign is a Fortunate Planet and In-Sect yet somehow unable to act - the film analogies are excellent - which film is that? Let's start with the Houses. Some Houses are Fortunate in and of themselves; some are Unfortunate. The Unfortunate Houses are the 4th, 6th, 8th and 12th (and sometimes the 7th depending on context). The 12th House is in and of itself an Unfortunate House. It signifies Sorrow, Loss/Separation, Disease, extended long distance Travel or living outside your home land (including voluntary or forced exile), Imprisonment and Slavery. Another way of looking at it is the 12th House is Your Very Own Personal Hell & House of Horrors. The 12th House is what traps you, ensnares you, holds you back, imprisons you, makes you a slave, and so on. Because that is true, it holds special meaning when Aquarius is rising, because that makes Capricorn the 12th Sign, and Saturn rules both.....with the implication being that you are the cause of your own sorrows and suffering. When you delineate the 12th House, you look at the Sign, and then find the Ruler, because the location of the Ruler, the aspects it makes, and what the Ruler signifies will tell you what you need to know. Of course, I'm talking about an Aries 12th with Mars in Scorpio, Taurus 12th with Venus in Libra, Virgo 12th with Mercury in Gemini and so on. Obviously, that doesn't apply to Sun/Moon since they only have one Sign each. You can add Exaltation to that as well as Domiciles. What if the 12th Ruler is not domiciled? Then you'll have to look at the Dispositor. Taurus 12th, Venus in Cancer, you'll have to look at Moon. What if you have Planets in the 12th? They'll all have the same Dispositor, but rule different Houses, and that's where you'll have to look. Here's where the correct terminology is so critically important to chart delineation. Planets in the same Sign within a 15° span are Assembled. What does that mean? Dearly beloved, we are assembled here today, to bear witness to the union of Fred Flintstone and Betty Rubble.... People assemble for a common purpose, do they not? So, when Planets are Assembled, they have a common purpose, and that's where the idiotic "stellium" in Modern Astrology totally obfuscates the symbolism. You can have two Planets joined by body (conjunct -- another stupid word that destroys the symbolism) and assembled to a 3rd (or 4th) Planet. All those Planets in the 12th --- assembled or not -- will tell the story of how you built or you little comfy Hell, by looking at Sign Ruler and the Houses those Planets rule. I'm guessing you want to know about your Sun in the 12th..... In addition to all the other things I mentioned, the 12th House also signifies Secret Enemies. Sun -- amongst its significations -- represents authority figures and powerful people, governments, government officials, the father in a Day Chart, husbands and so on. The Sun in the 12th generally indicates powerful Secret Enemies. The Sun's Dispositor --- here Mars since Sun is in Aries --- will indicate tell you the who, what and where of those Secret Enemies, and you may have to weigh that against Mars' Dispositor (if Mars is not domiciled) and the House holding Leo, and whatever Planets are in Leo and the Houses they rule (since Sun is their Dispositor). Yes, it can be over-whelming, so you'll have to develop your style of procedure to sort things out. What is Sun's condition here? Sun is Exalted in Aries. So, is Sun Fortunate? Probably -- barring any other problems like Pitted or Azieme Degrees. What will Fortunate Exalted Sun do? Help protect you from your Secret Enemies. Is Sun competent to handle that task? Sun in 12th House is in a Masculine Quadrant, and therefore Sun is in-Sect and therefore Sun is competent to keep your Secret Enemies at bay. But more than that, in addition to being in-Sect, Sun is in a Masculine Sign, and thus in Hayz, and so Sun is very competent to protect you from Secret Enemies. Now....about this Cadent thing...how does that come into play? That's our Planetary Order and Planetary Speed. Sun can make applying aspects to which Planets? Only Mars, Jupiter and Saturn.... .....but not from the 12th House. Here you have an Exalted Sun that is very competent, and it would be really, really nice if Sun was applying sextile or trine to Mars, Jupiter or Saturn --- because that would really help and benefit those Planets (since Sun is an Accidental Benefic here).... ...but that ain't gonna happen from the 12th House. Cadent House are weak, but the 12th is the weakest....Sun's applying aspects are almost non-existent (in terms of strength and effectiveness). Now if Sun is applying to Rx Mars, Rx Jupiter or Rx Saturn, that might hurt a bit, but not much since Exalted Sun is in it own Triplicity. uh, so what if Venus was in the 12th House? Well, Venus signifies a few things, including women. What kind of women? Depends on the condition of Venus. This might be a good time to mention Lots. When you're having difficulty sorting out Planets in the 12th (or any other House) and their Dispositors, Lots can help clarify things. Of course you want to cast Lots related to the House in question, although it wouldn't be out of line cast Lots to see which ones fall in the 12th (or the House in question). I'll give you another example, is I have Mars in Aries in the 6th. I got into Astrology because I wanted to know why I kept falling out of the sky, and why I was never really seriously injured (although others were and some died) and other things related to military service. Well, that's the answer: Mars in Aries in the 6th where Mars Rejoices. Get it? Someone asked about Saturn and Joys. Planets Rejoice in the Houses they signify. Venus signifies pleasure, and so Venus Joys in the 5th House, because it is the 5th House --- and not the stupid 8th House -- that represents sex, and also the cinema show, theatre, opera, the symphony, all other arts, restaurants, eateries, taverns, nightclubs and any place where people gather together for enjoyment, plus all public venues in general. Saturn is all about restricting, restraining, shackling, sorrow and so the 12th House is Sorrow, Slavery and Imprisonment (among things) and Saturn loves it there. Mars likes to injure people and destroy things....so he Rejoices in the 6th House. Except Mars is in Aries, Nocturnal, Oriental and such, so Mars is Fortunate, and I just ended up getting teased with repeated injuries, but none being serious or life-threatening (in part due to the benefic rays of Sun and Mercury in Gemini in the 8th), and that's mostly military things, machinery, metal things (especially those made of iron). I hope that straightens out the mess.

BobZemco
07-29-2013, 12:29 PM
I have no idea it ended up getting formatted as one gigantic paragraph. Sorry.

I see that I have thoroughly confused everyone. Super.

Let me see if I can untangle my mess here.

Let's start with the Houses.

Some Houses are Fortunate in and of themselves; some are Unfortunate. The Unfortunate Houses are the 4th, 6th, 8th and 12th (and sometimes the 7th depending on context). The 12th House is in and of itself an Unfortunate House. It signifies Sorrow, Loss/Separation, Disease, extended long distance Travel or living outside your home land (including voluntary or forced exile), Imprisonment and Slavery. Another way of looking at it is the 12th House is Your Very Own Personal Hell & House of Horrors. The 12th House is what traps you, ensnares you, holds you back, imprisons you, makes you a slave, and so on.

Because that is true, it holds special meaning when Aquarius is rising, because that makes Capricorn the 12th Sign, and Saturn rules both.....with the implication being that you are the cause of your own sorrows and suffering.

When you delineate the 12th House, you look at the Sign, and then find the Ruler, because the location of the Ruler, the aspects it makes, and what the Ruler signifies will tell you what you need to know. Of course, I'm talking about an Aries 12th with Mars in Scorpio, Taurus 12th with Venus in Libra, Virgo 12th with Mercury in Gemini and so on. Obviously, that doesn't apply to Sun/Moon since they only have one Sign each. You can add Exaltation to that as well as Domiciles.

What if the 12th Ruler is not domiciled? Then you'll have to look at the Dispositor. Taurus 12th, Venus in Cancer, you'll have to look at Moon. What if you have Planets in the 12th? They'll all have the same Dispositor, but rule different Houses, and that's where you'll have to look.

Here's where the correct terminology is so critically important to chart delineation. Planets in the same Sign within a 15° span are Assembled. What does that mean? Dearly beloved, we are assembled here today, to bear witness to the union of Fred Flintstone and Betty Rubble.... People assemble for a common purpose, do they not? So, when Planets are Assembled, they have a common purpose, and that's where the idiotic "stellium" in Modern Astrology totally obfuscates the symbolism. You can have two Planets joined by body (conjunct -- another stupid word that destroys the symbolism) and assembled to a 3rd (or 4th) Planet. All those Planets in the 12th --- assembled or not -- will tell the story of how you built or you little comfy Hell, by looking at Sign Ruler and the Houses those Planets rule.

I'm guessing you want to know about your Sun in the 12th.....

In addition to all the other things I mentioned, the 12th House also signifies Secret Enemies. Sun -- amongst its significations -- represents authority figures and powerful people, governments, government officials, the father in a Day Chart, husbands and so on. The Sun in the 12th generally indicates powerful Secret Enemies.

The Sun's Dispositor --- here Mars since Sun is in Aries --- will indicate tell you the who, what and where of those Secret Enemies, and you may have to weigh that against Mars' Dispositor (if Mars is not domiciled) and the House holding Leo, and whatever Planets are in Leo and the Houses they rule (since Sun is their Dispositor).

Yes, it can be over-whelming, so you'll have to develop your style of procedure to sort things out.

What is Sun's condition here? Sun is Exalted in Aries. So, is Sun Fortunate? Probably -- barring any other problems like Pitted or Azieme Degrees.

What will Fortunate Exalted Sun do? Help protect you from your Secret Enemies.

Is Sun competent to handle that task? Sun in 12th House is in a Masculine Quadrant, and therefore Sun is in-Sect and therefore Sun is competent to keep your Secret Enemies at bay.

But more than that, in addition to being in-Sect, Sun is in a Masculine Sign, and thus in Hayz, and so Sun is very competent to protect you from Secret Enemies.

Now....about this Cadent thing...how does that come into play?

Moon Mercury Venus Sun Mars Jupiter Saturn

That's our Planetary Order and Planetary Speed. Sun can make applying aspects to which Planets? Only Mars, Jupiter and Saturn....

.....but not from the 12th House.

Here you have an Exalted Sun that is very competent, and it would be really, really nice if Sun was applying sextile or trine to Mars, Jupiter or Saturn --- because that would really help and benefit those Planets (since Sun is an Accidental Benefic here)....

...but that ain't gonna happen from the 12th House.

Cadent House are weak, but the 12th is the weakest....Sun's applying aspects are almost non-existent (in terms of strength and effectiveness).

Now if Sun is applying to Rx Mars, Rx Jupiter or Rx Saturn, that might hurt a bit, but not much since Exalted Sun is in it own Triplicity.

uh, so what if Venus was in the 12th House? Well, Venus signifies a few things, including women. What kind of women? Depends on the condition of Venus.

This might be a good time to mention Lots. When you're having difficulty sorting out Planets in the 12th (or any other House) and their Dispositors, Lots can help clarify things.

Of course you want to cast Lots related to the House in question, although it wouldn't be out of line cast Lots to see which ones fall in the 12th (or the House in question).

I'll give you another example, is I have Mars in Aries in the 6th. I got into Astrology because I wanted to know why I kept falling out of the sky, and why I was never really seriously injured (although others were and some died) and other things related to military service.

Well, that's the answer: Mars in Aries in the 6th where Mars Rejoices.

Get it?

Someone asked about Saturn and Joys.

Planets Rejoice in the Houses they signify. Venus signifies pleasure, and so Venus Joys in the 5th House, because it is the 5th House --- and not the stupid 8th House -- that represents sex, and also the cinema show, theatre, opera, the symphony, all other arts, restaurants, eateries, taverns, nightclubs and any place where people gather together for enjoyment, plus all public venues in general.

Saturn is all about restricting, restraining, shackling, sorrow and so the 12th House is Sorrow, Slavery and Imprisonment (among things) and Saturn loves it there.

Mars likes to injure people and destroy things....so he Rejoices in the 6th House. Except Mars is in Aries, Nocturnal, Oriental and such, so Mars is Fortunate, and I just ended up getting teased with repeated injuries, but none being serious or life-threatening (in part due to the benefic rays of Sun and Mercury in Gemini in the 8th), and that's mostly military things, machinery, metal things (especially those made of iron).

I hope that straightens out the mess.

BobZemco
07-29-2013, 11:13 PM
So that's just one of the conditions for the Sun to be in Hayz and my understanding is that in order to qualify for this particular Hayz condition then Sun MUST be in Aries Gemini Leo Libra Sagittarius or Aquarius.

Think about the word "Sect" and its connotations.

A Sect is like a Faction, which is a group of people acting together within a larger group, like a clan, a clique, a cabal, a bloc (like the East Bloc -- a faction, a sect, sub-set of Europe), a band of people, a crew, etc etc etc.

Astrology is based on ordered hierarchies, like charts, and then groups of Planets like the Nocturnal Planets and the Diurnal Planets, the Masculine Planes and the Feminine Planes, the Cold Planets and the Hot Planets, and so on.

So you have two factions: the Diurnal Planets ---the Day Crew, the Day Shift, the Day Bloc, the Day Clan, the Day Shift, and then you have the Nocturnal Planets -- the Night Crew, Night Shift, Night Cabal, Night Bloc, Night Clan and such.

Note that each Faction has a Light: Sun for Day; Moon for Night, and because of that, they have different conditions to meet.

The Planets in each Faction/Sect operate best when they are similarly situated, meaning the Day Planets are Above Earth with the Sun, in Masculine Signs/Houses and too the Night Planets when they are Below Earth in a Day Chart, but Above Earth in a Night Chart and in Feminine Signs/Houses.

Diurnal Planets like to be in Diurnal Signs, which are the same thing as Masculine Signs. Nocturnal Planets like to be in Nocturnal Signs, which is the same thing as Feminine Signs.

If you understand futboll, then a Planet in-Sect is like being in the "B" League. A Planet in Hayz is like being in the "A" League. And if the Planet is in Hayz, and also in a Masculine Quadrant/Degree, it's like the Planet is also on the National Team, competing in the World Cup.

A Planet (or Light) that is not in-Sect is not very competent and being Out-of-Sect makes it totally incompetent.

I noticed that interestingly, the particular condition you highlighted includes two of the Unfortunate Houses, 9th and 12th and of those two 12th is the worst so I'm focusing on that

Hellenistic astrology states that ANY planet located in 12th is hampered because it is 'unfit/unable to carry out its business'.

Since you gave an example using the Sun, I chose a dignified Sun in 12th – in this case Aries, but Leo Sun would do just as well. Aries and Leo are both strong Signs for the Sun and I'm mulling over whether you are saying that a Dignified Aries - or Leo – Sun would be considered to be in Hayz yet located in 12th where it is unable/unfit to act according to Hellenistic astrologers. That's all. I'm mulling over the fact that you are saying that specifically Sun in 12th in ANY masculine sign is in Hayz

I think you might be confusing the concepts.

Sect tells you if a Planet (or Light) has the potential to perform the task(s) given to it in the Native's Chart.

The potential to act, is not the same as acting/performing.

Whether a Planet is Fortunate/Unfortunate will tell you if the Planet will actually perform.

As an analogy, think of you being in Hayz, you're very competent at what you do, be it a web-designer, engineer, chef, hair-dresser.....

....but because you are Unfortunate, you can't find a job, or there are long delays in finding a job (and then perhaps not in your career-field).

Think of the Planet representing Children in a Native's Chart. The Planet is in-Sect or in-Hayz and so competent, and therefore has the potential to produce Children for the Native, but because the Planet is Unfortunate, there are many delays, difficulties, problems in having Children, possibly to the extent that the Native might not ever have Children.

And you could say the same for Wealth, Health, Career, Travel and any other Topics.

I disagree with the Hellenistic concept, but that might be because I don't believe it is stated very clearly.

You have this Exalted in Hayz Sun in the 12th, and it's hampered to the extent that Sun cannot share his gifts with any other Planets, due to the fact that he is in the 12th House.

An Aries Sun in Hayz applying to the trine of Mars, Jupiter or Saturn in Leo would be a beautiful thing, but not from the 12th House....that just isn't going to happen. That trine will be so weak as to be barely noticeable in its effects.

According to Schmidt on Valens I understand that

(a) planets located in ANY Cadent house direct their energies away from the native and towards others instead.

Uh, okay, but that is exactly what you'd want an Exalted in-Hayz Sun in the 12th House to do --- direct its energy at others ---- like your Secret Enemies to keep them at bay and keep them from harming you.

That's no different than Aries Mars Rejoicing in the 6th protecting me from serious injuries.

Let me ask you this: someone with a dignified Planet in-Sect or in Hayz in the 9th, do you think the Native is likely to be involved in Scientology? Or part of a religious or ideological cult (like a terrorist group)?

Not likely.

(b) planets located in ANY Cadent house produce few, if any events and/or are unlikely and/or less likely to produce many/if any events.

I'm just not seeing that at all.

I've done way too many Forensic Charts.

Not only that, but in my own Chart, Venus is in Cancer in the 9th House and very obviously ruling the Libra 12th House...

....can you say "expatriate?"

Sure, I knew you could.

I've spent a good chunk of my adult life living outside of the US -- sometimes involuntarily due to military service; the rest of the time voluntarily -- like a self-imposed exile.

(c) Cadent houses are the 3rd, 5th, 9th and 12th

Therefore any planets located in the 12th (or any other Cadent house) in Hellenistic astrology direct their energies away from the native. When considering the malefics, this is regarded - in a sense - as good for the native.

However, I assume because it seems logical – and this is my understanding in any event - that if the native then somehow causes harm to others in any way, then obviously the native suffers the consequences of their actions. Thus receiving consequences of the action of malefics in 12th or any other Cadent house.

Benefics in 12th (or any other Cadent House) ALSO direct their energies away from the native so this is regarded - in a sense - as not so good for the native.

However, also logically then, my understanding of the issue is that the native may 'do good work for the benefit of others' and thus may receive some 'indirect' reward.

I'm guessing that's a typo and should read "6th" instead of "5th."

I have to categorically reject that.

One of the meanings often over-looked is Masculine/Feminine.

It has a secondary meaning of Active (Masculine) and Passive (Feminine). When you're judging a chart, there are 4 possibilities of Gender with Quadrants, Houses, Signs and Degrees.

A Planet sitting in 3 out of 4 (or all 4) Passive markers is going to be the recipient of action. I see that all the time in homicide charts, where the victim is often Cadent and in square/opposition to a Malefic or the significator of the perpetrator.

On the contrary, when a Planet is sitting in 3 of 4 (or all 4) Active markers (again Quadrant, House, Sign and Degree) that Planet will be the initiator of action, or the Planet that exerts the most action.

And when its middling --- any 2 out of 4 --- then the Planet is both the initiator of action, as well as the recipient of action.

According to Schmidt on Valens

1.) In a diurnal chart you'd want the diurnal planets in the upper hemisphere with the Sun (hayz) as that would be more natural for those planets. The diurnal planets are Sun, Jupiter and Saturn.

That's an excellent example of why we read and compare texts to find how doctrines become corrupted.

The Arabs refer to that as "Halb." That's easy for me to remember, because the German word "halb" is "half." Not to get side-tracked, but I seriously doubt that's a coincidence. For one language or the other, it is a loan-word and it was picked up through trade.

So....a Planet in its "half" is in that half of the chart -- North/South Hemisphere -- where it ought to be with its Sect ---- faction, group, crew etc etc etc.

For the Arabs, a Planet that was in Halb --- in Sect --- was also Hayyiz (in Hayz) when it was in a Sign of its same Gender.

Then the Persians and later Medievals (like Bonatti) added the House conditions, and I accept that for now, but ultimately I'll most likely reject it, because I don't believe Houses confer any power...or take away power.

I believe that to be a concept that was mangled with the re-introduction of House Systems.

In other words, the 12th House has no powers at all, but the 12th Sign does, and due to the fact that the 12th Sign is the 12th Sign, and that it is falling away from the Angle (Cadent) and it is in aversion to the Ascending Sign is what reduces the strength of the 12th Sign, in exactly the same way that the 9th, 3rd and 6th Signs are also falling away from the angles, except that the 9th Sign trines the Ascending Sign and so has some power...the most power of all the Cadent Signs, followed by the 3rd Sign which sextiles the Ascendant giving the Sign -- but not the House -- some power, and then the 6th and 12th Signs which are in aversion and very weak with the 12th Sign being the weakest.

I see the function of House Systems as showing the extent Signs influence a given Topic. That is obvious when you see the 8th House "bleeding over" into the 9th House and encompassing in part the 8th and 9th Signs, which is an indicator of death in a foreign land, or at the hands of a foreigner etc.

If any diurnal planets in a diurnal chart are in the lower hemisphere/below the Ascendant/Descendant axis then although they are in sect, nevertheless they are considered slightly out of sect and more nocturnal in nature (halb)

That makes no sense.

If that's true, then I should be rich beyond the wildest dreams of avarice, because Jupiter rules my Sagittarius 2nd House/Sign.

What's Jupiter's major malfunction?

Direct Jupiter is in Pisces.

Jupiter is harmed by Saturn? Not possible since Aquarius Saturn is in aversion to Jupiter.

Jupiter is harmed by Mars? Again, impossible since Aries Mars is in aversion to Jupiter.

Jupiter is harmed by the trine from Cancer Venus? Yeah, right. No, Venus aids Jupiter.

Jupiter is harmed by the square from Sun? No, Jupiter receives Sun by Triplicity and Face.

Jupiter is harmed by Pisces Moon joining him? No.

Jupiter is in aversion to the 2nd Sign and/or the Ascendant? No, Jupiter trines the Ascendant and squares the 2nd Sign.

The what's the problem, why aren't I sitting on mountains of cash?

Because Jupiter is not in-Sect.

It's a Day Chart and is Jupiter sunning himself at Lloret de Mar on the Costa Brava? No, he's frigging freezing Below Earth.

Not only is Jupiter not in-Sect, but Jupiter is in a Feminine Sign and a Feminine Degree.....the only saving grace here is Jupiter is in a Masculine Quadrant.

Is Jupiter competent to manage my financial affairs? No way.

Jupiter is barely competent...I'll always have money in my pocket and a corrugated tin roof over my head, but nothing more.


HOWEVER

logically mulling over Hellenistic considerations....

Although Jupiter and Saturn can be below the horizon in a day chart and therefore considered more nocturnal in nature (halb) I'm assuming that logically THAT DOES NOT APPLY TO THE SUN BECAUSE THE SUN CANNOT BE BELOW THE HORIZON IN A DAY CHART.... although of course there remain all the whether it's twilight and when is the Sun above or below the horizon exactly conundrums....

I can't really buy into that, because that isn't seen in charts.

As far as the twilight thing, if you can't see Sun on the Horizon, it's a Night Chart.

SO you are saying that Sun in 8th CANNOT be in Hayz irrespective of Sign location - so even a dignified Sun such as Aries or Leo when located in 8th can never be in Hayz.

That would be the long and short of it.

Regarding the in-Sect conditions for the Sun you have said that:

3] If Sun is in the 8th House, then IN ORDER TO BE IN SECT THEN Sun MUST be in a Masculine Sign.

You have said that being in sect is a condition of the Sun being able to perform the task it has been given in the chart.

So, just as a Sun, no matter how dignified may be somewhat limited in performing the task it has been given in the chart because it is located in a Cadent house such as 12th 3rd or 9th YET nevertheless, the Sun is in Hayz when in 12th in a masculine sign

BUT you are saying that IF Sun in 8th is in a Feminine Sign THEN Sun is considered 'out of sect' while nevertheless above the Horizon and in a Day chart. So a Dignified Aries or Leo Sun in 8th above the Horizon in a Day chart is in Sect BUT NOT in Hayz

I get that there are many considerations such as sign and house locations to take into account.

There are several components that determine a Planet's overall condition.

If you want, you can start by determining if a Planet is Fortunate or Unfortunate, because that in part will help you determine if the Planet is inclined to Good, or to Evil.

I don't really care for those terms any more than I care for Benefic/Malefic, but taken in the proper context, it does accurately convey what is taking place.

Benefic = Easy Street
Malefic = Hard Road

A Fortunate Benefic and you'll get to the end of the Rainbow in a chauffeured limousine.

A Fortunate Malefic and you'll still get to the end of the Rainbow, but you'll have to walk....up-hill both ways....in the snow...while raining...and being chased by lions and tigers and bears.

An Unfortunate Benefic and bad things come easy: excess, over-indulgence, hedonism and such.

An Unfortunate Malefic and you get bad things^2 (squared). Your home just doesn't burn down....it burns down, falls over, sinks into a swamp, gets eaten by rats (or I guess swamp rats) and then swallowed by a sink-hole and then a meteor lands and destroys the rest of it, and then you go to jail for not paying property taxes.

And then having made those determinations, you look at the Planet's ability to perform --- its competence --- it's Sect status.

I have a Benefic -- Jupiter --- that is very Fortunate, but then totally incompetent because Jupiter is not in-Sect and not in a Masculine Sign.

Jupiter in my chart is like the Black Adder or Mr. Bean.

Aries Sun in the 12th in that chart is in-Sect in a Masculine Quadrant = Competent --- and then in a Masculine Sign = Very Competent (and if also a Masculine Degree then Highly Competent), to perform the task it has been given, which appears to be protecting the Native from Secret Enemies.

The Sun is Fortunate, and very Competent, but badly placed in the chart, and the only thing that does -- being in the 12th --- is bar Sun from sharing his strength and gifts with other Planets, so just as Sun cannot aid or help any Planet through an aspect, Sun cannot harm any Planet either.

Hope that clears things up.

tsmall
07-29-2013, 11:28 PM
Then the Persians and later Medievals (like Bonatti) added the House conditions, and I accept that for now, but ultimately I'll most likely reject it, because I don't believe Houses confer any power...or take away power.

I believe that to be a concept that was mangled with the re-introduction of House Systems.

In other words, the 12th House has no powers at all, but the 12th Sign does, and due to the fact that the 12th Sign is the 12th Sign, and that it is falling away from the Angle (Cadent) and it is in aversion to the Ascending Sign is what reduces the strength of the 12th Sign, in exactly the same way that the 9th, 3rd and 6th Signs are also falling away from the angles, except that the 9th Sign trines the Ascending Sign and so has some power...the most power of all the Cadent Signs, followed by the 3rd Sign which sextiles the Ascendant giving the Sign -- but not the House -- some power, and then the 6th and 12th Signs which are in aversion and very weak with the 12th Sign being the weakest.

I see the function of House Systems as showing the extent Signs influence a given Topic. That is obvious when you see the 8th House "bleeding over" into the 9th House and encompassing in part the 8th and 9th Signs, which is an indicator of death in a foreign land, or at the hands of a foreigner etc.

What about number of degrees past an angle? This is probably a stupid question, but isn't that where the idea of the house systems came from? A planet more than 5* past up to 30* past an angle is "falling away" from it? And does that harm the planet's ability to function? As in oomph, or energy?

Second stupid question, though it relates to the first...what about a planet (let's say Sun) that is more than 5* above the ASC, but in the ascending sign? For example, Sun in the 3rd degree of Libra :whistling: Sun is in fall and "cadent" but otherwise (masculine sign, degree, quadrant) playing in the World Cup?

I don't want to speak for others, but for myself I find that it isn't always easy, even though I completely understand your post about sect, joys, fortunate, unfortunate, what have you. Things like this...

Think of the Planet representing Children in a Native's Chart. The Planet is in-Sect or in-Hayz and so competent, and therefore has the potential to produce Children for the Native, but because the Planet is Unfortunate, there are many delays, difficulties, problems in having Children, possibly to the extent that the Native might not ever have Children.

Ok, the planet representing children in my chart is Saturn (5th house/sign is Aquarius) and Saturn is retrograde in Taurus in the 8th degree (Azemene) and 8th sign. About the only thing Saturn has going for him is that he is above the horizon in a day chart, and in masculine degree. Otherwise, he's in a feminine sign and quadrant, in a very unfortunate place, and this very unfortunate place is associated with childbirth. Just going by that it would be easy to come to the conclusion that I wouldn't be able to have children since Saturn is about as incapable as a planet can get. Yet I have three.

Why? Could it be (and I'm not being sarcastic) because I have Moon in Pisces, a very fruitful sign (and I am a woman, so we would expect Moon to be involved in fertility in some way) and ASC along with Jupiter (the planet naturally related to children) in Libra, a rather fruitful sign. Taurus, where Saturn finds himself, is also a rather fruitful sign. Venus applies to and receives Saturn by trine and getting back to the original topic of this thread Venus joys in the 5th, however it is from Virgo~her fall and a barren sign~ and Venus is in the 12th sign. So that should be no help. Mars applies by trine to Saturn (though Venus gets there first, so frustration.) Mars is exalted, but that's about the only thing going for him as he is in halb though not on the chart's "team" and in a pivot (4th sign) yet in feminine quadrant, sign (masculine degree though) as well as being more than 5* past the IC. Mars is on the "opposite team" so that should be a further hindrance, right? The nature of Mars is to sever and separate.

All of which to say is that having lived it I can almost see how I have been fruitful seven times but have three children. But I can't see it well enough to be able to apply it to another chart. Because Saturn shouldn't be able to deliver (pun intended) anything.

DreamingTheSeas
07-30-2013, 05:22 AM
So in a Nocturnal chart, 5th house(sign) in Aries a Masculine Sign, ruler Mars a Masculine planet is in Hayz, in (Scorpio a Feminine sign) 12th house can still give children. Right?

In a daychart, 6th house(sign) in Libra a masculine Sign, ruler Venus a feminine planet , in (Aries a Masculine sign) 12th house can not benefit health.

BobZemco
07-30-2013, 07:13 PM
What about number of degrees past an angle? This is probably a stupid question, but isn't that where the idea of the house systems came from? A planet more than 5* past up to 30* past an angle is "falling away" from it? And does that harm the planet's ability to function? As in oomph, or energy?

No, there always was an House System. I have no idea what it was, except that it would have been a time-based system similar to the one used by al-Qabisi (for trivia, his Latinzed name was Alcabitius).

Some of the texts that have been translated make reference to star groups being in, uh, for lack of a better word, a "Temple." This star or star group rising in this "Temple" and so on.

Same with Planets: udu.idim.sag.us "appearing" (that's the word in the text) in this "Temple" and things like that.

They knew then, what we know now, and that is it's absurd and illogical that one Sign would have sway over a particular area of the Native's life. There's some spill-over into other areas. How much? That's what the House System would show.

Unfortunately, the Dark Ages ruins everything, and knowledge is lost.

For a long time, not only did they forget how to calculate the House System, they forgot how to calculate the Midheaven as well. I suspect the "Chaldeans" were actually Akkadian intelligentsia who ultimately migrated there after the decline the Assyrian Kingdom, and being all in one place, they were able to reconstruct some of the math and other concepts, and it isn't too long after that when they start calculating the Midheaven again.

From that point on, they try to re-invent the wheel, and too many wheels get re-invented and not enough of them work (especially the square wheels).

Anyway, the idea of power comes from the fact that the Signs move clock-wise in the chart, and so the Ascending Sign -- the 1st Sign -- is pushing the 12th Sign out of the way, and that's where you get the symbolism that Angular Signs are strong, and Cadent Signs are weak.

On the opposite side, the Descendant -- the 7th Sign -- is pushing the 6th Sign out of the way.

Whether you're using an MC or the 10th Sign doesn't matter, since both are moving clock-wise and the 10th Sign is pushing the 9th Sign out of the way, just as the 4th Sign is pushing the 3rd Sign out of the way.

And even though the it is usually translated as "Angles" the actual words or connotations are "Corners" and so these Cadent Signs are falling away from the "Corners" --- the Angles.

That's why Angular Houses are strong and signify beginnings, starting something new, a foundation etc etc, and why the Cadent Houses are weak and represent those things that are either coming to an end or changing, and then obviously the symbolism of the Succeedent Signs/Houses is that they are behind the Angular Houses, so that by the time the Succeedent Sign moves clock-wise to Corner/Angle it signifies something that has been on-going, in-progress, continuous and what not.

Then of course the Cadent Signs moving clock-wise eventually come to the Corners/Angles and so the circle/cycle is complete.

Bearing that in mind, the idea of the 5°/30° thing was created to compensate for the fact that they did not have an House System.

What I would suggest is that if you are using an House System, then abandon the 5°/30° Rule.

If you are using Whole Sign, then I recommend using the 5°/30° Rule

If you are using True Equal House and not Stupid Equal House, then I believe I would be inclined to apply the 5°/30° Rule there as well.

As far as "energy" I think that's a concept that was grossly misunderstood and not translated well over the course of time, because experience and reality prove otherwise.

The Houses in and of themselves are powerless.....meaning the Houses have no special powers and do not act on either the Sign or the Planets.

Think of roads, streets or highways....they are the same as the Houses.

What special power does a road have? None.

A car, truck, lorry, motorcycle on a road is the same as a Planet in an House.

But....aren't there roads that you prefer? Roads that are maintained better than others? Roads that have less traffic than others?

Aren't there roads you'd rather not be on?

Same with Houses. Some Houses you want to be in, and some you'd rather avoid altogether.

The power is inherent to the Sign and its relationship to other Signs in the chart.

The 6th and 12th Signs are weak in power, not because they are the 6th and 12th Houses, rather because they are the 6th and 12th Signs, and because they do not aspect the Ascending Sign which is where the power in the chart is.

The 1st Sign is so powerful, it is pushing all of the remaining eleven Signs clock-wise around the chart.

If the 1st Sign is the engine of the train, then the 12th Sign is the caboose.

Is it the Engine that pulls the train, or is it the caboose that pushes the train?

Yes, the 3rd Sign is Cadent, but it also sextiles the Ascending Sign and so the Ascending Sign can give/share some power, albeit it weakly, since it is a sextile, and so the 3rd Sign is stronger than the 6th Sign, and much stronger than the 12th Sign.

Likewise, the 9th Sign is Cadent, but it trines the Ascending Sign, and since a trine is more powerful than a sextile, the 9th Sign is stronger than the 3rd Sign, much stronger than the 6th Sign (in aversion to the Ascending Sign), and an helluva lot stronger than the 12th Sign (also in aversion to the Ascending Sign).

What about the Ascendant and the Midheaven?

I don't know. Those are Chart Points. There's nothing there but empty space. You'd be hard-pressed to suggest that they have power, because then you'd have to say the Head/Tail have power, and they don't -- since they are empty points in space. However, that doesn't mean a Planet cannot be harmed or aided by being in a particular point in space. Also you'd have to say that Lots have power, and they don't, since they are chart points as well.

So it isn't the Houses that have power, it's the Signs, and that power is derived from their relationship to the Ascendant Sign.

One other thing you'd need to look at is what is the Planet doing?

Planets joined or assembled in the 12th Sign, yes, something is happening there, but applying aspects they make are virtually useless, but...if a Planet is applying in aspect to a Planet in the 12th, there's going to be something happening there.

Second stupid question, though it relates to the first...what about a planet (let's say Sun) that is more than 5* above the ASC, but in the ascending sign? For example, Sun in the 3rd degree of Libra :whistling: Sun is in fall and "cadent" but otherwise (masculine sign, degree, quadrant) playing in the World Cup?

Uh, I like to cook. I find it very relaxing and therapeutic. I especially like sauces and gravies, and things a garde manger would make like dressings for salads, condiments (like garlic mayonnaise) and glazes for cakes and pastries.

Lots of recipes on the internet, and as you peruse them looking at the ingredients used.... potentially.....and that's the key.....potentially they sound really tasty.

So I follow the directions hoping this potentiality is realized, and I end up with something that I would be embarrassed to feed to a maggot.

You have a Planet that is capable of producing results, and those results will be good or bad depending on whether or not the Planet is Fortunate or Unfortunate.

You're actually the best qualified to make the particular judgment here, and this would also be a good opportunity to test some of the doctrines related to the 5°/30° Rule.

Aside from that, you already know I'd say Sun is in the 12th and capable of failing spectacularly from protecting you from Secret Enemies.

Ok, the planet representing children in my chart is Saturn (5th house/sign is Aquarius) and Saturn is retrograde in Taurus in the 8th degree (Azemene) and 8th sign. About the only thing Saturn has going for him is that he is above the horizon in a day chart, and in masculine degree. Otherwise, he's in a feminine sign and quadrant, in a very unfortunate place, and this very unfortunate place is associated with childbirth. Just going by that it would be easy to come to the conclusion that I wouldn't be able to have children since Saturn is about as incapable as a planet can get. Yet I have three.

Why? Could it be (and I'm not being sarcastic) because I have Moon in Pisces, a very fruitful sign (and I am a woman, so we would expect Moon to be involved in fertility in some way) and ASC along with Jupiter (the planet naturally related to children) in Libra, a rather fruitful sign. Taurus, where Saturn finds himself, is also a rather fruitful sign. Venus applies to and receives Saturn by trine and getting back to the original topic of this thread Venus joys in the 5th, however it is from Virgo~her fall and a barren sign~ and Venus is in the 12th sign. So that should be no help. Mars applies by trine to Saturn (though Venus gets there first, so frustration.) Mars is exalted, but that's about the only thing going for him as he is in halb though not on the chart's "team" and in a pivot (4th sign) yet in feminine quadrant, sign (masculine degree though) as well as being more than 5* past the IC. Mars is on the "opposite team" so that should be a further hindrance, right? The nature of Mars is to sever and separate.

So in a Nocturnal chart, 5th house(sign) in Aries a Masculine Sign, ruler Mars a Masculine planet is in Hayz, in (Scorpio a Feminine sign) 12th house can still give children. Right?

In a daychart, 6th house(sign) in Libra a masculine Sign, ruler Venus a feminine planet , in (Aries a Masculine sign) 12th house can not benefit health.

Well, there are very few things that cause total denial in a chart.

We make objective judgments based on the indications of the testimonies that we see. When the testimonies, or indicators or whatever you want to call them are overwhelmingly positive, then it is more than just a mere promise in the chart, it's practically a certainty, and the implication is that the Native has a fair degree of control over whatever topic your delineating that has such overwhelmingly positive indicators.

When the testimonies are mixed, that is not a denial, rather it falls more into the realm of a "promise" and the Native has less say in the matter.

Even when the indicators appear to be negative, it still isn't a total denial, rather it's something that is not within the Native's control, and it will be very difficult to attain whatever it is.

For total denial, you're typically talking about Feral Planets, a Feral Planet or Void of Course Planet in the Topic House and then the Ruler of that House is Combust, or sitting between Saturn and Mars (besieged) or in aversion, or aspects that don't perfect, or something like that.

For children, meaning the Native having children and we'll limit this to biological children, you are looking at the Ascendant, Planets in the Ascendant, the Ascendant Ruler, Planets in the 5th Sign/House and then the Rulers, and also the Dispositor of the Ascendant Ruler/5th Sign/House Ruler.

You're looking at the testimonies for all of them, and then basing your judgment on that.

When you are looking specifically at your children and their lives, and in particular your 1st Born, then you focus on the 5th Sign/House Ruler (the 7th Sign for the 2nd Born and the 9th Sign for the 3rd Born).

It's probably best to print the chart and turn it, or re-draw the chart on paper with turned Houses since you'd be using derived-Houses to delineate your children's lives (at least in part).

I just recently posted something showing two different methods for childbirth using Profections and Solar Returns with Princess Diana's Chart.

I showed how to use the 8th House for William (I think it was) and then the Lot of Conception for Harry, and then just for fun, went back and showed how to use the Lot of Conception on William.

JUPITERASC
07-30-2013, 07:56 PM
...I just recently posted something showing two different methods for childbirth using Profections and Solar Returns with Princess Diana's Chart.

I showed how to use the 8th House for William (I think it was) and then the Lot of Conception for Harry, and then just for fun, went back and showed how to use the Lot of Conception on William.
For those who require a link to the two different methods for childbirth using Profections and Solar Returns with Princess Diana's Chart http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showpost.php?p=485551&postcount=21 :smile:

Understandably, many women (and men) have hopes for children. We look at the 1st, 5th and 11th Signs actually.

The logic behind this is very simple: the 1st House represents you; the 5th House signifies your children and specifically, your 1st Born child.

But the 11th?

Two reasons: First, the 11th Sign/House is the fifth Sign/House from the 7th House, which signifies your partners, including marriage partners and even long-term relationships. And, yes, 2,000 years ago, people, um, "lived in sin." That makes the 11th Sign/House ruling your partner's children.

The second reason is that the 11th Sign/House signifies your successors and legal heirs, because it is the second Sign from the 10th Sign.

As king, president, prime minister, regimental commander, CEO, senior partner at the law firm, chief resident of surgery, or crew leader at McDonald's, the 11th Sign/House is the person to succeed you.

In addition to successors, it is your legal heirs and appointees (for example the Executor or Executrix of a Will/Estate).

And yes, that includes your adopted children, who become your legal heirs.

So, it's the 5th and 11th Signs -- not Houses -- because it is the 5th and 11th Signs that make an aspect to the Ascending Sign --- the 5th Sign trines the ascending Sign, while the 11th Sign sextiles the ascending Sign.

The trine is stronger than the sextile, and so the implication is that with the 5th Sign trine, you have a stronger bond with your biological children, than with the children of another (even if you adopt them).

You want to see some kind of relationship between the Planets ruling the 1st, 5th and 11th Signs. This relationship can be

by Sign aspect -- meaning those Planets are in Signs that sextile, square or trine

by being in the same Sign, even though they are not joined

by being in applying aspects to each other (and perfecting those aspects)

by having light transferred from one Planet to another

by having light collected (which suggests the necessity of medical intervention in order to have children or if with the 11th, then using and adoption agency)

Note it is possible to have your own children, other's children and also adopt.

If you have difficulty judging, or get mixed signals, then use the Lot of Children. That's especially true when the indicators are negative, because the Lot and its ruler can help you tell why not children (Lot in 6th indicating general health issues, or Lot in 8th indicating problems with reproductive organs or Lot Ruler in 6th or 8th, joined with the ruler of the 6th or 8th and so on).

Since Retrograde Planets in aspect often impede, take note of that, since it could indicate fewer children than the chart suggests, or a delay in having children, or difficulties having children (which could be related to career, education, financial position, being in jail, health issues and such).

There are people on this forum who will misleadingly tell you the 8th House is "Sex."

It is not. The 8th Sign/House is Death, among things, but also the male and female reproductive organs and, uh, childbirth.

You can go over to the Dark Side and watch them pull their hair out trying to find out when they'll have children, because they don't understand that the 8th Sign/House is childbirth and not sex, and because they don't have the common sense to realize that one can become pregnant in one year, and have the baby in a different year.

Gestation...what a concept.

I'll demonstrate just to tease you. I'm not going to post a chart, but I'll use a chart everyone has access, and that is Diana Princess of Wales.

Like Diana, the both of you want to know if you might have children, and when you might have them. If Diana came to me as a Traditional Astrologer, I would look at her chart and see an very Unfortunate Moon with the Tail in the 3rd Sign (an Human Sign) ruling the 8th House applying to an opposition with Mars (in an Human Sign), ruling the 12th House and Retrograde Mercury in 8th in applying sextile to Mars, and Mars with the Head, plus 4th Sign Ruler Jupiter the 3rd Sign in an Human Sign...not gonna go there...

We see the 1st, 5th and 11th Signs to be Sagittarius, Aries and Libra.

Venus rules Libra. Venus is in Taurus. Venus is in aversion to Libra, a indicator that Diana will not adopt or have step-children. Venus in Taurus is in aversion to the Rising Sign, another indicator that Diana will not adopt or have step-children. Finally, Venus in Taurus is in aversion to the 5th House, yet one more indicator that Diana will not adopt or have step-children.

In Traditional Astrology, we put on our black robes and sometimes powdered wigs, and then we weigh the facts, rendering a judgment. With three rather strong testimonies, we would judge it not likely for Diana to ever adopt or have step-children.

Mars, the 5th Sign Ruler is in an Human Sign. While Mars is in aversion to his own Sign, Virgo does square Sagittarius, and that is a weak testimony. 1st Sign Ruler Jupiter is a positive testimony for children, and Jupiter being in an Human Sign -- Aquarius -- is sextile to both Sagittarius and Aries, and so we have connections there, and our judgment is the potential for children but not many. Here, we might want to look at the Lot of Children, which is in Sagittarius, ruled by Jupiter....positive testimonies for children, so our judgment is that she will have them.

According to her chart, Mars rules the 5th Sign and so represents her 1st Born child William, while Mercury ruling the 7th House is her 2nd Born child Harry.

Mercury (Harry) is Retrograde, Combust, in aversion to its own House, while Mars (William) is elevated over Mercury, and in the 10th Sign. The tenth Sign from the 5th Sign -- Capricorn -- tells part of the story of William. Saturn is domiciled in Capricorn, and while the conjunction with Jupiter never perfects, the trine with Venus in Taurus ruling Williams wealth and substance does.

Anyway, as a Traditional Astrologer, I would start with Diana's profected charts, because Traditional Astrologers don't like to waste time on stupid stuff....like Transits.

I recommend the Lot of Conception. In Diana's chart it falls natally at 21° Taurus with Ruler Venus so no problems there. Accordingly, any time Venus is activated, you need to pay attention.

Starting at '0' we count around the chart, each Sign equals 1 year, and come to year 20 in 1981 with Leo on the profected Ascendant. Sun rules Leo sitting in Cancer natally in the 8th Sign/House of Child-Birth.

B-b-b-b-better cast a Solar Return Chart.

Scorpio comes to the Solar Return Ascendant ruled by Pluto? Nope, Pluto doesn't count...rule by Mars who is sitting in Gemini in the 8th Sign of the Solar Return Chart and rules the 5th Sign of Children natally.

The Solar Return Lot of Conception is at 20° Aquarius, with SR Mars in an applying trine, and Saturn exalted in Libra with Jupiter ruling the 5th Sign of the SR Chart applying to a conjunction.

How freaking hard was that?

Moving right along, we see that 2 year later, the profected Ascendant is in Libra activating Natal Venus who rules the Lot of Conception.

B-b-b-b-better cast a Solar Return Chart.

This chart's a little more difficult, which is why some use the Lot of Conception. This chart doesn't show child-birth, but then that's because Harry isn't born for another 16 months or so.


Gemini-Rising, Lot of Conception is at 21° Scorpio and Solar Return Venus in Leo –-- ruler of the natal Lot of Conception ---- comes round and joins the Solar Return Lot of Conception on December 24 –--- and then Prince Henry comes along 9 months later.

If you wanna back-track, then see Diana’s Solar Return for 1981 with Aquarius-Rising and the Solar Return Lot of Conception at 20° Aquarius. Solar Return Venus –-- again ruler of the natal Lot of Conception ---- comes round and trines the Solar Return Lot of Conception on September 4, and then Prince William arrives 9 months later in June.

That’s how it’s done.

You don’t have to use Lots, but they often clarify and make life much simpler.

So, first and foremost, focus on the 8th Sign/House since it is the House of Child-birth, and then look to connections between the 5th and 8th House, or use the Lot of Conception.

One other thing…..in Diana’s Chart, Venus rules Children…..for Diana, and for no one else.

Yes, it is possible that Venus rules Children in your chart, but it’s also possible that it is Saturn who rules Children in your chart….or Mercury, or Sun or Mars.

You’ll need to calculate the Almuten of Children, and I mention that, because the Planet that rules the 7th House in your chart may not be the Planet that rules Marriage --– yes, you’ll need to determine which of the Planets actually rules Marriage (and the same for wealth and health and everything else --- the Planets that rules those Houses aren’t necessarily the Planets that run the show).

Learning is both fun and rewarding…..so use the internet.

tsmall
07-30-2013, 08:01 PM
Thanks again Bob. Once more you have given me something to think about.

Aside from that, you already know I'd say Sun is in the 12th and capable of failing spectacularly from protecting you from Secret Enemies.

No kidding. Although I might be willing to say that this particular Sun is at least capable of mitigating the damage those secret enemies can cause. Since I know someone with Jupiter in Sagittarius, the 12th sign but 11th house who was also recently beset by secret enemies...what I'm starting to see is that it is indeed a confluence, or at least a need to blend the idea of both, correct?

The idea I'm thinking of most for this is that it is helpful to have benefics with potential in "bad" houses because they help to protect the native from the things associate with those houses, even though they may not be able to do much else.

Planets joined or assembled in the 12th Sign, yes, something is happening there, but applying aspects they make are virtually useless, but...if a Planet is applying in aspect to a Planet in the 12th, there's going to be something happening there.

All right. Do out of sign applications count? Or what if the planet applying is also cadent?

For total denial, you're typically talking about Feral Planets, a Feral Planet or Void of Course Planet in the Topic House and then the Ruler of that House is Combust, or sitting between Saturn and Mars (besieged) or in aversion, or aspects that don't perfect, or something like that.

Every time you post about Feral planets I freak out a little. I spent about six months thinking that one through because there was a chart...Bing Crosby's son if I remember correctly...

I think feral planets would deserve another thread though.

eternalautumn
08-14-2013, 05:19 PM
This thread got slightly hijacked. Apologies, byjove! :)

byjove
08-15-2013, 09:20 PM
This thread got slightly hijacked. Apologies, byjove! :)

...:happy: I have just finished reading the updates...

I think there is a considerable amount of information on the strength and weaknesses of Joys - and related dignities and debilities. Anyone searching for that information will find a wealth of info to work with. :wink:

One issue I find with researching these details is that there appears to be no end. You drop the stone into the well and you never hear it hit anything. I think 50% of this is knowledge and experience but the other 50% is subjective - which school of thought do you work with? If you use them all, you surely arrive at modern astrology anyway?

tsmall
09-14-2013, 03:54 AM
...:happy: I have just finished reading the updates...

I think there is a considerable amount of information on the strength and weaknesses of Joys - and related dignities and debilities. Anyone searching for that information will find a wealth of info to work with. :wink:

One issue I find with researching these details is that there appears to be no end. You drop the stone into the well and you never hear it hit anything. I think 50% of this is knowledge and experience but the other 50% is subjective - which school of thought do you work with? If you use them all, you surely arrive at modern astrology anyway?

I doubt it. Both about being able to find delineative info on the joys, and getting back around to modern astrology. Not because modern astrology can't work, but perhaps because there is a way it can work better, by understanding the underpinnings.

To get back to the original query, regarding the strength of planetary joys, I did discover this interesting tidbit.

In Dykes’ IA, there is a quote from Abu Mashar cited as from the Abbreviation of the Great Introduction; “On the Impotence of the Stars.” Astrology is a language, no?


“And the impotence of the Sun is to be in a female quarter or female signs [unless he is in the ninth place, his joy.]”

There is a difference between impotence and misfortune. This passage leads the reader to the idea that joy surpasses unempowered. Which could be why Mars, though cadent in the 6th, does not lack effectiveness in a chart. Nor Sun in 9th, Moon in 3rd, or Saturn in 12th. Misfortune is not the same as impotent.

Further evidence that sometimes cadent planets are infused with the ability to act?

If we follow this line of thought, what we are looking at re: the planetary joys is a way to be able to over come disempowerment. That wouldn't necessarily mean that we don't want to consider the planet's condition, but rather we want to look at what impedes the planet from perfecting it's significations, and then consider if being in joy is going to do it.

byjove
09-14-2013, 09:48 PM
Well the original query didn't ask about cadent planets at all, it was where in the ranks would joy fit.

While I appreciate the giants of the past, that quote is a great example of the ambiguity and elusiveness of some past authors. No doubt a common rebuttal would be that 'we don't understand' if we don't agree. No, I just don't use that approach or text.

byjove
09-14-2013, 09:49 PM
Hi,

I did a search for "joys" in all the threads and got nothing, perhaps it's been phrased differently?

Do many modern astrologers here use the joys? How strong do you consider the planetary joys?

e.g.
Domicile
exaltation
joy / triplicity
term
face

something like this? I've just come across a bounty - my 1st ruler which has only two aspects, both of which are strong and harsh, is actually in joy...so 1st ruler in joy opposing an exalted planet and both square a third planet. Many the chart ruler has some saving grace......

This was the OP if anyone has forgotten or to keep on topic.

JUPITERASC
09-14-2013, 10:45 PM
......I've just come across a bounty - my 1st ruler which has only two aspects, both of which are strong and harsh, is actually in joy...so 1st ruler in joy opposing an exalted planet and both square a third planet. Many the chart ruler has some saving grace......
Would be helpful if you could clarify what 'saving grace' the chart ruler could have by being in joy :smile:

Also when you say chart ruler, are you referring to your Ascendant ruler?

tsmall
09-14-2013, 11:51 PM
Well the original query didn't ask about cadent planets at all, it was where in the ranks would joy fit.

Right, but you are aware that 4 of the seven traditional planets for whom joy is given are finding it in cadent houses? Your query may not have specifically mentioned cadency, but...a cadent planet is considered impeded. As in impotent to perfect what it signifies.

While I appreciate the giants of the past, that quote is a great example of the ambiguity and elusiveness of some past authors. No doubt a common rebuttal would be that 'we don't understand' if we don't agree. No, I just don't use that approach or text.

It may be a "common rebuttal," however it is not a rebuttal I would make. What I would counter is that much of modern astrology is equally as ambiguous as what we might find in reading the old texts. Using this logic, it is unnecessary for anyone to read Lovecraft, if they can read King. Similarly, why bother reading Shakespeare? Except that Romeo and Juliet still pertain, and still are continuously remade in modern adaptations.

Speaking of ambiguous, I believe I am misunderstanding your meaning here. I had no expectation that anyone would agree with what I posted when I said

There is a difference between impotence and misfortune. This passage leads the reader to the idea that joy surpasses unempowered. Which could be why Mars, though cadent in the 6th, does not lack effectiveness in a chart. Nor Sun in 9th, Moon in 3rd, or Saturn in 12th. Misfortune is not the same as impotent.

Further evidence that sometimes cadent planets are infused with the ability to act?

If we follow this line of thought, what we are looking at re: the planetary joys is a way to be able to over come disempowerment. That wouldn't necessarily mean that we don't want to consider the planet's condition, but rather we want to look at what impedes the planet from perfecting it's significations, and then consider if being in joy is going to do it.

I did a search for "joys" in all the threads and got nothing, perhaps it's been phrased differently?

jove, I spent months searching for delineative information on the joys. I queried several astrologers who have connections to several famous named astrologers in the traditional method. You know what I got for an answer? No one really knows. Because no one today really knows how the joys were developed, and how they were used delineatively. I even went so far as to try to figure out if there was some correlation between the joys and the exaltations, since no one really knows why the planets are exalted where they are. We have a lot of theories, and we can see examples of exaltation in effective use in chart delineation...but not joys. You may not have specified cadent in your OP (and am I correct in sensing some hostility here? Seriously? Because I so totally have a reputation for not considering that everyone is entitled to study which ever form of astrology they choose. :andy:)

Do many modern astrologers here use the joys? How strong do you consider the planetary joys?

e.g.
Domicile
exaltation
joy / triplicity
term
face

You notice that this thread was moved into the traditional forum? There is probably a reason for that.

To my knowledge, most modern astrologers do not consider the dignities past domicile and perhaps exaltation. I am very likely to be mistaken, but that is my understanding. Face does = decant, and I know there is some method surrounding this in modern astrology, but I believe the bounds aren't considered, and that none of them are considered very much.

Why? Because the charts are delineated differently, with different objectives in mind.

Well the original query didn't ask about cadent planets at all, it was where in the ranks would joy fit.

Alright, what ranks? Are you asking, as it appears, about adding them to Lilly's method for weighing the planets? As in you get a point for this, two points for that, and minus points for such and such?

This is not a modern method. Which suggests to me that you are conflating different ideas and this is where you are confusing yourself.

You asked in your OP if modern astrologers use the joys, and then go on to try to fit them into a scheme for determining planetary strength...which is not used in modern astrology.

The strength of a planet, as in it's ability to act, is what your thread title inquires about. There is a difference between strength, or ability to act, and condition...as in how the planet will act if it is able.

You may chastise me as you wish for possibly missing your point, but I believe that mine was made, in that it appears that those 4 planets which find their joy in cadent houses are granted the strength to overcome cadency.

Sometimes it requires logic to understand what the planets, and the old masters, are saying to us. Impotence is the inability to act. It could be a natural accident of chart/house placement, or it could be based on status (condition) wherein the planet is peregrine (I have posted about this elsewhere) or it could be that the planet is impeded because it is hampered by the aspects it makes.

Joy may be what helps the planet overcome these impediments.

Mercury joys in the 1st house. In my chart, Mercury is retrograde and combust, which means that Mercury is impeded. The significations of Mercury shouldn't be able to be realized based on traditional ideology. However, I have Mercury in Joy. He may be hampered, but he is still effective.

waybread
09-15-2013, 12:43 AM
Will the real traditional astrology please stand up?

I just checked the joys in Avelar and Rebeiro's primer, for traditional astrology, On the Heavenly Spheres. The authors are Portuguese. One wonders how traditional astrology developed in non-English speaking countries (or in untranslated sources) sometimes.

They give the system posted above by Eternal Autumn, and state:

1. The house of a planet's joy has an affinity with its nature, thus enhancing its powers of expression.

2. Some times these houses make sense, if you tease them out a bit. The moon is in its joy in the third house of short-distance travel and communication, as a fast-moving planet. (Note Hellenistically, this was also the house of the goddess.)

3. Joy by house and by sign are different.

4. Noctural planets have joy below the horizon; dirunal planets above the horizon.

5. "Planets of the same nature are positioned in houses opposite each other." (Cf. sun=9, moon=3.)

6. The joys favour the less powerful houses (cf. Saturn in the 12th.)

7. Some authors actually consider that a planet has its sorrow in the house opposite its joy. Something more to grapple.

8. Joy by sign (an essential dignity) means a planet has the same masculine/feminine and diurnal/noctural signature as its sign. Venus has its joy in Taurus; both being female and nocturnal.

This is why I do modern astrology. Much simpler, unless you use harmonics, midpoints, asteroids, and 1970s-style Freudian psychology.

JUPITERASC
09-15-2013, 01:37 AM
Hi,

I did a search for "joys" in all the threads and got nothing, perhaps it's been phrased differently?

Do many modern astrologers here use the joys? How strong do you consider the planetary joys?

e.g.
Domicile
exaltation
joy / triplicity
term
face

something like this? I've just come across a bounty - my 1st ruler which has only two aspects, both of which are strong and harsh, is actually in joy...so 1st ruler in joy opposing an exalted planet and both square a third planet. Many the chart ruler has some saving grace......
Remember also byjove that planets are said to joy by sign :smile:


QUOTE

'....However, the signs in which the planets when they enter them are said to rejoice in them according to Dorotheus are these:

Saturn is said to rejoice when he enters Aquarius
and Jupiter in Sagittarius,
Mars in Scorpio,
Venus in Taurus
and Mercury in Virgo...'

JOYS OF THE PLANETS BY SIGN Al-Qabisi
source: Benjamin Dykes Translation IA p.65

tsmall
09-15-2013, 02:07 AM
Will the real traditional astrology please stand up?

I just checked the joys in Avelar and Rebeiro's primer, for traditional astrology, On the Heavenly Spheres. The authors are Portuguese. One wonders how traditional astrology developed in non-English speaking countries (or in untranslated sources) sometimes.

:joyful:

OMG, waybread, I totally forgot about that (mostly since I loaned Spheres to a friend who is a metalurgist and Reiki guy over a year ago and haven't seen it since.)

lThey give the system posted above by Eternal Autumn, and state:

1. The house of a planet's joy has an affinity with its nature, thus enhancing its powers of expression.

2. Some times these houses make sense, if you tease them out a bit. The moon is in its joy in the third house of short-distance travel and communication, as a fast-moving planet. (Note Hellenistically, this was also the house of the goddess.)

3. Joy by house and by sign are different.

Yes, because joy is another one of those words loosely translated that can mean many things, like sect. The difference we are looking at is between the word "joy" and the word "rejoice."

The Moon was the godess, and it must needs understand this, as we so often point out, that when astrology was in its infancy, matrilineal inheritance was the way of life. Sun was consort, but Moon was Queen.

4. Noctural planets have joy below the horizon; dirunal planets above the horizon.

This ties back to the difference between the joys as we know them (Sun in 9th, Moon in 3rd, Venus in 5th, Jupiter in 11th, Mars in 6th, Saturn in 12th, and then there is Mercury, who joys in the 1st...sign. Because the Ascendant will often straddle the difference between night and day, as does Mercury by nature. Joys by house relate back to whole sign houses and the Thema Mundi.

5. "Planets of the same nature are positioned in houses opposite each other." (Cf. sun=9, moon=3.)

Again, since I loaned out Spheres, I had forgotten about this line. Which actually bears more investigation. So happy you found it.

6. The joys favour the less powerful houses (cf. Saturn in the 12th.)

This goes toward what I posted above, in that the planets in the less powerful houses are granted an ability to have power if they are in joy...as a strength.

7. Some authors actually consider that a planet has its sorrow in the house opposite its joy. Something more to grapple.

I have seen this, and believe that there is much delineative information to be discovered in exploring the idea.

8. Joy by sign (an essential dignity) means a planet has the same masculine/feminine and diurnal/noctural signature as its sign. Venus has its joy in Taurus; both being female and nocturnal.

waybread, thank you. :love:

It isn't always clear in the texts, because have you ever tried using Google Translate? Words have different meanings in different cultures, and so the hardest part is teasing out the meanings of the words. In traditional astrology, we have the "joys" as given to us (with a couple of exceptions re: Venus in 10 and not 5, and Saturn in 4 and not 12) being as byjove stated. Then we have conditions in which the planets "rejoice." There is a delineative difference, and homonyms play into it.

When reading the older texts, rejoicing is similar to sect. So Venus will rejoice in Taurus as opposed to Libra, because Taurus agrees with Venus' nature. Think of it as "preferring." Diurnal planets will "prefer/feel more comfortable" in the signs they rule that agree with their sect (nocturnal/diurnal) than they do with the opposite. Mars prefers Scorpio to Aries, Saturn prefers Aquarius to Capricorn, Jupiter prefers Sagittarius to Pisces...and so on. Like I prefer my home in Bermuda to my home in New Hampshire (ok, so I don't have a home in Bermuda, but a girl can dream.)

This is why I do modern astrology. Much simpler, unless you use harmonics, midpoints, asteroids, and 1970s-style Freudian psychology.

Nah. I think modern astrology, done well, is harder. :whistling:

dr. farr
09-15-2013, 02:53 AM
Right-oldtime astrology (such as in the Islamic transitional era) considered a planet in the house opposite its Joy, to be (in its sorrow) detrimented by such placement, in making an overall determination of the net dignities and detriments of each planet in a chart.

I still use these considerations somewhat (although I follow Manilius in the Joys/Sorrows, and Vedic astrology in sect), as of course I use domicile and angularity, but only secondarily (except in horary) giving primary place to my adaptation of Vedic ashtakavarga analysis, in making estimations of dignity and detriment...

waybread
09-15-2013, 03:20 AM
Thanks, tsmall! If your friend won't return your book, hopefully you can get a new one for your birthday or something. I find Avelar and Rebeiro to be refreshingly clear and non-dogmatic.

One other thing I wanted to suggest is that there are two main issues with houses. One is where to set the cusps. WWIII routinely breaks out on astrology websites over whole signs vs. Placidus vs........ Two is the subject content of the houses. And the latter point is where the joys by house start to make sense if we refer back to Hellenistic authors. (The Babylonians did not use houses.)

Hopefully some of you have read the research of Otto Neugebauer, who was a mathematician and historian of science at Brown University. He and his colleagues translated the horoscopes given in both astrological texts like Valens as well as archaeological remains with horoscopes. Most of the latter were found in Egypt, and written in a language called Demotic: the ancient Egyptian language written with Greek characters, rather than heiroglyphics. Some of Neugebauer's work is available on-line.

Some of these early demotic horoscopes give names for houses that have dropped out of modern purview (except in Houlding's Houses: Temples of the Sky,) like the third as "the house of the goddess" and the 9th as "the house of the god." The 4th was named for a station in the Egyptian after-life called the "Dwat", and so on.

Early Hellenistic astrology seems to have emerged in and around Alexandria, Egypt; with an admixture of Egyptian religious overtones (hence the frequent references by Hellenistic astrologers to Nechepso and Petosiris) and Neo-Platonism.

The horoscopes studied by Neugebauer and associates are almost entirely astronomically plausble. I think they only found a couple that couldn't have pertained to actual sky conditions during the approximate periods during the horoscopes' externally verified or estimated dates. So we have to think the house thematic contents had some truthfulness, also.

Enter Manilius, a ca. 1st century AD Roman poet. Manilius's Astronomica is available as a book in English translation (I've got the Loeb Classical Library Goold translation, available through Internet book sellers.) He is dismissed by some Hellenistic practitioners today as a non-astrologer, but I think this is a mistake (and Houlding seems to agree) because he seems to have been in possession of solid astrological lore, even if he didn't read charts for clients.

Basically, to paraphrase, the houses in Manilius translate as temples, so we might think of Greek and Egyptian temples dedicated to particular gods. Astrologically and religiously, a temple is where a god presides. We find several Hellenistic authors (including Valens) ascribing tutelary gods to signs and houses. These are not necessarily identical with the god for whom a domiciled planet is named. For example, Ceres/Demeter is associated with Virgo.

Manilius gave the 12th to the god he knew: Typhon, who most closely out of the Graeco-Roman pantheon resembled the Egyptian god Seth. Seth was a desert god who brought disorder and destruction, though he could be a powerful protector. With no planet called Typhon in Greek astronomy, the Big Malefic, Saturn, was about the best fit.

Houlding goes into this in detail, but the Hellenistic astrologers also had the idea of a planet at its strength closest to the angles, then losing strength as it "fell away" from it. (This evolves into our concept of cadent houses.)

(Book 2) "The temple that is immediately above the Horoscope [ascendant] and is the next but one to heaven's zenith [10th] is a temple of ill omen, hostile to future activity and all too fruitful of bane...." He notes that it falls away from the MC axis, as does its opposite (and also misfortunate) house, the 6th. "With justice are they held to be the dread abodes of Typhon...."

Manilius goes on like this, describing some houses as happy and fortunate, and others as "striving" to ascend, but failing and falling. It would have been a logical step for a practising astrologer to assign Saturn to the 12th and Mars to the 6th, as both malefics had Typhon-like qualities. Mars was truly malefic to the Babylonians, for example.

More fortunate is the 11th, "Thus it is small cause for wonder, if the station nearest the zenith (10th) and more secure than it, is blessed with the lot of Happy Fortune.... in this temple dwells Jupiter...." And so on. The house of the good spirit (5th) called "Daemonie" in Greek goes to the lesser benefic, Venus. (Manilius also gives the 10th to Venus. I'm thinking Isis, but who knows.)

"God" is given to the 9th. This would have been the supreme sun god in ancient Egypt. From this we get Phoebus who morphed into Apollo. The Hellenistic Apollo, interestingly, was not originally a sun god, but became so later in his career. He was, however, associated with prophecy, which remains a 9th house matter today. His opposite number could have been any one of a number of moon goddesses, and from this we get the moon rejoicing in the 3rd house. Valens, for example, calls the "III Place, the Place of the Goddess Moon."

This leaves but Mercury in the 1st house. Interestingly, we find associations of this house with boat-steering: the prow, the tiller (cf. Manilius in book IV)-- this all sounds like the Egyptian barque in which the sun-god traversed the northern constellations (north=IC; south was at the "top".) I am thinking Mercury rejoicing in the first as the morning star, or the planet closest to the emerging sun, but Manilius is unclear on its rationale. However, he does give the first house as the temple of Mercury.

This system maps entirely onto the system of planetary joys by house.

With 12 houses and only 7 known planets, some houses do not have a planet that rejoices in them. [Interestingly, Valens and Manilius associate the 2nd house with a "casting up" from hell or the "gates of Hell"; and the 8th as the house of death. So maybe Planet-Come-Lately Pluto will gain a seat in house joys!]

Manilius says these temple rulerships are very important. Possibly they receded in significance with the subsequent development of traditional astrology.

Then we do get some duplicate meanings of houses that make no sense in the above system of house joys. For example, the third as the "house of brothers" doesn't much relate to the moon goddess, but it does sound a lot like the third sign Gemini. The 7th house, as the point of sunset on the western horizon, marking the division of night and day, seems a lot like the "scales" of Libra, as well as its marking the beginning of the autumn equinox.

I find all this fascinating for its own sake, without much needing to use the joys in ordinary natal chart interpretation.

dr. farr
09-15-2013, 03:30 AM
I was much influenced by Manilius; I believe he represented a minority Hellenist school of practice (that of Antioch), which became lost by the 2nd century AD to the overwhelming dominance of the Alexandrian astrological school (although Valens, from Antioch-might have included a bit of the Antiochian ideas in his writings)...As Waybread posted, Manilius is an "outcast" as far as the neo-Hellenists of today are concerned, but I think they have overlooked the possibility that a non-Alexandrian astrological school/tradition might have existed, and that Manilius might have been a part of that now-long lost school of practice...

waybread
09-15-2013, 03:45 AM
I think Deborah Houlding gives Manilius a lot of due in Houses: Temples of the Sky, but that some of her peers have disagreed with her. One thing I've gleaned from histories of astrology, like Barton's Ancient Astrology, is that astrology was enormously popular in the Roman empire during the centuries before and after Manilius. Astrologers comprised a wide range of professionals (often called "mathematicians") and amateurs. The idea that there was a single tradition handed down to a select group of cognescenti who were masterful professional horoscope interpreters is at odds with the body of information the classical authors wrote about astrology in its varied practice.

tsmall
09-15-2013, 03:56 AM
I think Deborah Houlding gives Manilius a lot of due in Houses: Temples of the Sky, but that some of her peers have disagreed with her. One thing I've gleaned from histories of astrology, like Barton's Ancient Astrology, is that astrology was enormously popular in the Roman empire during the centuries before and after Manilius. Astrologers comprised a wide range of professionals (often called "mathematicians") and amateurs. The idea that there was a single tradition handed down to a select group of cognescenti who were masterful professional horoscope interpreters is at odds with the body of information the classical authors wrote about astrology in its varied practice.

This is just about the sanest thing ever posted re astrologers in antiquity. Exactly as occurs today, ever did they disagree. It just so happens that they disagreed using language that today we need to parse, and understand in context, in order to be able to comprehend and learn.

This is not to say that each didn't have something interesting to note, and I have found that many did as we do now...quote an either older or consensus held opinion about what means what in a chart. You find this often in the instructional texts extant, in that they will be almost identical in the phrasing of certain ideas.

dr. farr
09-15-2013, 04:27 AM
Right, and there was a lot of syncretizing going on! Alexandria syncretized prior Egyptian and Babylonian concepts and practices to form Hellenist astrology by the beginning of the 3rd century BC (The Great Celestial Handbook attributed to Nechepso and Petosiris, circa 200 BC, now lost, probably being the culmination of the early Hellenist syncretism) Then this syncretic astrology, moving East (to the Indo-Greek kingdoms covering parts of Persia and India, circa 180 BC - 10 AD), syncretized again, with Indo-Iranian astrological streams (Zorastrian astrology and Indian Vedic astrology via the dominant Buddhist culture of that area during that time) to form the astrological model seen in such works as the Yavanajatka; later, in India, this syncretic Hellenic/Indo/Iranian model, was syncretized yet again by Vahamihira (6th century AD) with the native (Vedic) Indian astrological stream, to produce the classical Indian astrological system now known as "mainstream" or "Parasara" Vedic astrology. Similarly, in the West, the Egypto-Babylonic syncretism of the Greeks, passed on to the Islamic world, where it was modified again (Islamic transitional era), including elements from divergent astrological streams, and then passing on for further modification during European Renaissance and later times.

In a way, the entire history of astrology from Europe through India, over the past 2300 years or so, really is a kind of "eclecticism", which is one reason I feel I fit in quite well with it, being an eclectic myself!!

amaranthinefall
01-19-2016, 03:14 PM
This was a great thread.

Two points I made then without full understanding need clarification, as much for me as anyone else interested:

1. As far as the joys and trigons, I stand by my assignment of earth to west/descendant and water to north/nadir. I believe my arrangement actually supports the natural place doctrine better than Brennan et al's, for a very simple reason. As the zenith dominates the ascendant by [edit:dexter or sinister? got some more catching up to do] square, so fire dominates air. Rotate the chart 180* and water dominates earth. Easy. (:

2. On the genders of the planets. Sun and Jupiter are masculine, Moon and Venus are feminine. Mars is masculine, in fact the most masculine of the planets, so of the nocturnal sect for balance. Mercury, rather than neuter, is fittingly a hermaphrodite. This goes for the rest of its qualities too; rather than none, it is all. And this leaves Saturn. That old devil, Kronos. He castrated his father Uranus, and so was castrated by his son Zeus. This leaves him a eunuch, unable to reproduce, impotent. A fitting description for the significator of old men and old age in general. And one could see how a castrated eunuch (rather than a natural or "born") would be considered feminine; and maybe more feminine than actual females, as the ultimate passive. And so we have Saturn of the diurnal sext, to balance this. An recurrent pattern with the malefics is the extreme-ness of their essential nature and the mitigation of this through their essential dignity, so I'm confident with this assignment.

Thoughts?

tsmall
01-19-2016, 07:20 PM
2. On the genders of the planets. Sun and Jupiter are masculine, Moon and Venus are feminine. Mars is masculine, in fact the most masculine of the planets, so of the nocturnal sect for balance. Mercury, rather than neuter, is fittingly a hermaphrodite. This goes for the rest of its qualities too; rather than none, it is all. And this leaves Saturn. That old devil, Kronos. He castrated his father Uranus, and so was castrated by his son Zeus. This leaves him a eunuch, unable to reproduce, impotent. A fitting description for the significator of old men and old age in general. And one could see how a castrated eunuch (rather than a natural or "born") would be considered feminine; and maybe more feminine than actual females, as the ultimate passive. And so we have Saturn of the diurnal sext, to balance this. An recurrent pattern with the malefics is the extreme-ness of their essential nature and the mitigation of this through their essential dignity, so I'm confident with this assignment.

Thoughts?

The word for Sun in Hebrew is feminine, Moon masculine. There are two versions/genders of the star we now call Venus in ancient mythlogy. Ezra said Saturn was feminine, Paul said Mars was. I think that the ideas of sect, gender, and astrology have gotten mixed up and anthropomorphized through years of translations.

Feminine=receiving, Masculine=doing. Or even that isn't exactly the way to explain it. Start with the two Hermetic lots, Fortune and Spirit. Fortune, or the lot of the Moon, represents what happens to the native, Spirit represents what happens because of the native. So the feminine is what is brought to something, the masculine is what something/something brings to the world. I hope that was clear.

Now if we look again at the temperamental qualities of hot/cold dry/moist, we can see that heat and dryness are masculine qualities as heat and dryness expand and separate while cold condenses and moisture unifies. Applying that to our planetary natures and we can see that the Moon and Venus are the only two planets that are purely feminine. Let's think in terms of assigning values based masculine and feminine so that m = masculine and f= feminine

Moon cold/moist--ff
Venus cold/moist--ff
Mercury cold/dry--fm
Sun hot/dry--mm
Mars extra hot/dry--mm
Jupiter hot/moist--mf
Saturn extra cold/dry--fm

At least this is the way it makes the most sense to me. :lol:

amaranthinefall
01-19-2016, 10:45 PM
tsmall, I'm curious, back then, was Saturn the planet you were thinking of as feminine? Or Mars? :)

Saturn as excluder, rejecter, denier, liar, these seem more passive traits to me? Am I off here?

I guess this is kind of irrelevant, but I won't be satisfied until I completely work it out in my mind. Ugh. Always getting stuck on these little details...

amaranthinefall
01-20-2016, 05:15 PM
Also, since aspects are cast from faster to slower planet, Saturn can only receive them... Right?! Help, lol...

amaranthinefall
01-20-2016, 06:27 PM
Also, Saturn as agriculture ([with Venus]Persephone/Demeter?), the ground, caves, the grave (barren womb become tomb?), etc. etc. ... am I grasping at straws or?

tikana
01-20-2016, 06:37 PM
receptions it can go both ways
aspectwise faster applies to slower.. since saturn is the slowest

waybread
01-20-2016, 08:13 PM
Also, since aspects are cast from faster to slower planet, Saturn can only receive them... Right?! Help, lol...

Usually, yes, but here is where it pays to check an ephemeris. Any of the actual planets have an average speed, but at any given time they can slow down or speed up, and go stationary, which often happens when a planet is about to go retrograde or direct from a retrograde motion. If you happened to catch a planet going slower or stationary, you might have some moments when Saturn was actually the faster planet.

Also a faster planet applying to an aspect with Saturn can turn retrograde before the aspect perfects. A late degree Saturn might change signs before an applying aspect perfects, and so on.

waybread
01-20-2016, 08:16 PM
Also, Saturn as agriculture ([with Venus]Persephone/Demeter?), the ground, caves, the grave (barren womb become tomb?), etc. etc. ... am I grasping at straws or?

During the course of ancient history, goddesses did tend to get demoted and their rulerships taken over by male deities. Demeter was more particularly a grain goddess-- and also known as "the law giver."

tsmall
01-20-2016, 09:15 PM
tsmall, I'm curious, back then, was Saturn the planet you were thinking of as feminine? Or Mars? :)

Saturn as excluder, rejecter, denier, liar, these seem more passive traits to me? Am I off here?

I guess this is kind of irrelevant, but I won't be satisfied until I completely work it out in my mind. Ugh. Always getting stuck on these little details...

Details, details, lol. Yes, several years ago I did give passing contemplation to Saturn's gender before I was able to come to the conclusion I gave you above.

To be honest I'm just not that concerned about it anymore. In delineating Saturn in any chart I'm more apt to see if he is in domicile or not, in sect (above the horizen in a day chart, below in a night chart,) in domain (masculine sign, degree, quadrant,) occidental or oriental, direct or retrograde, impeded by any other planet...

I tend not to worry if Saturn or Mars is a "he" or a "she," since any one of the planets can be a "he" or a "she." :wink: