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MSO
12-07-2011, 02:14 AM
In Christian Astrology, Lilly repeatedly refers to the strengths of planets as (paraphrasing here) "strong, moderate, and weak."

The question I have is, what makes "moderate?" I understand strong and weak.

So for example; Mercury in triplicity, being it's only essential dignity. Or Saturn in it's terms, again it's only dignity. Are these "moderately" fortified planets? Or on the weak side? Or Jupiter in detriment, in both it's terms and faces? Would that still be counted as weak, or would the minor dignities cancel out the more major one?

And, in reference strictly to Lilly's writings (possibly others) as it pertains to the strengths in certain scenarios, do we count the accidental dignities of the houses? Or only when he explicity instructs you to do so?

dr. farr
12-07-2011, 04:13 AM
Although no fan of Lilly's (forgive me!), but nonetheless taking planetary strength/debility into account (to a certain degree), I have found simply taking the totality of essential and accidental dignities/debilities all combined into account, has provided me with the clearest insight relative to planetary strengths.

Moog
12-07-2011, 10:53 AM
I guess you're looking for hard and fast rules, MSO?

So for example; Mercury in triplicity, being it's only essential dignity. Or Saturn in it's terms, again it's only dignity. Are these "moderately" fortified planets? Or on the weak side? Or Jupiter in detriment, in both it's terms and faces? Would that still be counted as weak, or would the minor dignities cancel out the more major one?The way you're figuring it makes sense to me.

When you put things in the perspective of actual practice... considering how few charts I see have more than a couple rulerships or exaltations, I would say triplicity, terms, and face dignities are moderate dignities. Anything better than fall, detriment or peregrinity (is that a word? It is now).

Or Jupiter in detriment, in both it's terms and faces? Would that still be counted as weak, or would the minor dignities cancel out the more major one?That's one I'm still not too sure about... people seem to add them up cumulatively

-5(det)
+2(terms)
+1(face)
= -2

Which is better than -5 but still not fantastic

Perhaps strong means strongly positive (+5 or more)
Moderate is anything around the 0 mark (maybe... -4 to +4)
Weak is minus figures (-5 or more)

These are just my own ideas.

MSO
12-07-2011, 04:13 PM
Both good posts, thanks for the info.

Rebel Uranian
12-10-2011, 06:39 PM
Perhaps strong means strongly positive (+5 or more)
Moderate is anything around the 0 mark (maybe... -4 to +4)
Weak is minus figures (-5 or more)

These are just my own ideas.

Psssshhh. My Saturn is fall and (presumably) peregrine and receives a cumulative +31.

Kaiousei no Senshi
01-15-2012, 09:14 PM
I think in this instance you would typically only consider the accidental dignities. Typically the "strength" of planets refers to their ability to accomplish what they promise (being cadent vs being angular, being afflicted vs being bonified, etc), whereas "fortification" refurs to their essential dignities. The reason I say this is because (if I recall correctly) there is an instance where Lilly refers to a Fallen Mars as "moderately strong" in one of his test charts. It's one of his war charts about a town being taken, but I can't recall it at the moment.

Psssshhh. My Saturn is fall and (presumably) peregrine and receives a cumulative +31.

Yes, for many of the non-luminary planets, it's not difficult for them to amass a great amount of accidental dignities.

Rebel Uranian
01-15-2012, 09:42 PM
Actually, it receives a much lower score since I got the sect of my chart wrong and since I found out what the old orb for partility (yes, I invented that) is, but it's still more than twice "fortified" or essentially dignified if a high amount of essential dignity is +5.

This is according to Ptolemy, which Lilly basically copied/"compiled" verbatim for dignities if I understand correctly:

essential (e):
in fall -4
peregrine -5
reception with Sun +7 (Saturn domicile + terms)
reception with Mars +6 (Saturn exaltation + terms)
reception with Jupiter +7 (Saturn domicile + terms)
e debility: -9
e dignity: +20
e dignity + debility: +11

accidental (a):
4th house +4
direct +4
swift +2
not combust +5
in the terms of Jupiter +1
sextile (within 2*) Jupiter +3
occidental: -2
conjunct (within 2*) SN -5
opposite (within 2*) Mars -4
a dignity: +19
a debility: -11
a dignity + debility: +8

a + e dignity + debility: +19

That's more than my domiciled Moon, which receives a mere +11.

e:
domicile +5
e dignity: +5
e debility: -0
e dignity + debility: +5

a:
7th house +4
direct +4 (the Moon is always direct, so I won't count this in the total)
occidental +2
waxing +2? (the Moon is waxing if and only if it is occidental, so I won't count this in the total)
free from combust +5
in terms of Venus +1
slow -2
a dignity: +8
a debility: -2
a dignity + debility: +10

a + e dignity + debility: +15

I don't think you're supposed to be able to cheat on dignity and debility like this.

Kaiousei no Senshi
01-16-2012, 12:08 AM
Saturn:
-4 for Fall
-5 Peregrine
+4 Fourth house
+4 Direct
+2 Swift
+2 Occidental
+5 Free of Combustion
-4 Opp. from Mars
Total: 8

Moon:
+5 Domicile
+5 Seventh house
+2 Swift
+2 Waxing
+5 Free from Combustion
-4 Square Saturn
-4 Square Mars
Total: 11


You overscored on the receptions, but Lilly's words here imply that it must be an equal degree of reception between the significators planets; Domicile/Domicile MR or exaltation/exaltation MR. These scores are probably a bit better, but not exact. I'm somewhat rushed and I probably missed something...

Rebel Uranian
01-16-2012, 12:09 AM
I did not overscore the receptions. There are Saturn terms/bounds (Ptolemaic terms) (+2) for all 3 of them, which means you need to add 6 points to Saturn. I did forget the 7th house for the Moon, but a measly 4 more points doesn't make the Moon the lord of geniture (a + e) or the almuten (e.)

Kaiousei no Senshi
01-16-2012, 03:38 AM
There are Saturn terms/bounds (Ptolemaic terms) (+2) for all 3 of them, which means you need to add 6 points to Saturn.

Nooooo. Saturn only gets term points if he's within his own term, and I believe the third degree of Aries belongs to Jupiter in terms.

Planets can't receive other planets by term alone.

Oh, also, most modern day traditional astrologers have sort of settled on the usage of the Egyptian terms presented by Ptolmey, Dorotheus, and Valens. There are three different sets of terms that are all attributed to Ptolemy (there were a lot of pretenders), and no one knows which one is the real one, so it's more common to see astrologers utilizing the Egyptian ones that have been consistent across the sources they are presented in.

Rebel Uranian
01-16-2012, 03:04 PM
[Saturn]

accidental (a):
in the terms of Jupiter +1


I'm using this list of terms and other dignities (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/album.php?albumid=780&pictureid=3838). That's what I'm pretty sure people used in medieval times. There is no reception by term alone going on. They're all mixed. I'm only listing the dignities that are in reception in this case, or other planets with Saturn and Saturn with other planets:

Sun:
Saturn domicile
Saturn term

Mars:
Saturn exaltation
Saturn term

Jupiter:
Saturn domicile
Saturn term

Saturn:
Jupiter triplicity
Mars domicile
Sun exaltation
Jupiter term
Jupiter face

Kaiousei no Senshi
01-16-2012, 04:13 PM
There is no reception by term alone going on. They're all mixed

Yes, and I mentioned in an earlier post that mixed receptions don't get included, it's only mutual receptions of the same degree of dignity. Lilly's exact words on this matter are "A planet in his own house, or in mutual reception with another planet by house, shall have dignities". He then echoes this again in consideration of dignity by exaltation.

I ran your stuff in Janus and it calculates the dignity points based on Lilly's criteria and it scored your Saturn a 4. Peregrine -5, Fall -4, Fourth house +4, Direct +4, Swift +2, Occidental -2 (I got this mixed up earlier), Free from the beams +5. Janus didn't include the opposition from Mars and I was a bit befuddled by this, but Lilly tells us that the opposition must be platic for Mars to maltreat Saturn and the same goes with any aspect, gotta be platic!

Rebel Uranian
01-16-2012, 04:25 PM
http://en.mimi.hu/astrology/platic.html

Platic
Science / Astrology (http://en.mimi.hu/astrology/astrology.html) / Platic
Platic: Term used to describe any aspect that is not exact (within 1 orb (http://en.mimi.hu/astrology/orb.html)) but within allowable orb (http://en.mimi.hu/astrology/orb.html).

I thought the aspects had to be partile, not platic... but if they are platic, does that mean that my Moon now scores negative?

Why exactly didn't Lilly used mixed receptions, at least to the extent that the dignities have equal value (i.e. domicile and exaltation is +4 for both planets) or triplicity, term, etc. receptions?

Kaiousei no Senshi
01-16-2012, 06:55 PM
I thought the aspects had to be partile, not platic... but if they are platic, does that mean that my Moon now scores negative?

Yes, I was thinking that too, but it makes sense that it only takes into account partile aspects since those are what counts in maltreatment and bonification considerations. That's essentially what this is, but just called something different.

No, your Moon actually has a very nice score of +14. The only debilitation it has is that it's slow in motion. The only planet that beats the Moon is Venus who has a +16 score.

Why exactly didn't Lilly used mixed receptions, at least to the extent that the dignities have equal value (i.e. domicile and exaltation is +4 for both planets) or triplicity, term, etc. receptions?

Good question. Typically, it's more favorable for planets to be in equal places since it shows an ability to help each out on equal footing, otherwise one could take advantage of the other. Saturn in Aries is able to help Mars out more than Mars in Libra is since Saturn can get anything that Mars needs from his own house, where as Venus's house of Libra might not have everything that Saturn may need.

It can also work in a bit more of a sinister way. Let's say you and I are in mutual reception by house. I'm in your house while - at the same time - you're in my house. I have full domain of your house and your property, but I'm probably less likely to mess it up or break stuff out of fear that you might retaliate on my property and vice versa. Now let's say I'm in your house (domicile), but you're in one of my good friend's houses (exaltation). Well, now I don't care so much because you can't get to my house, so I'm more likely to take advantage of your property.

Rebel Uranian
01-16-2012, 07:27 PM
Well, Lilly doesn't work then.

Kaiousei no Senshi
01-16-2012, 08:50 PM
It's not just a Lilly thing. I'm pretty sure he was the first one to really come down with a numbers game about it, but the basic ideas of accidental and essential dignity, the interplays of reception, maltreatment and bonification are ideas you find more or less consistent throughout the tradition. Some of these things are lifted right from the pages of Ptolemy and his sources.

Rebel Uranian
01-16-2012, 10:00 PM
I don't mean the general concepts, I just mean the specific methods of Lilly. If I'm correct, the Moon and Venus represent the conservative notion of femininity (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44139). (See link.)

Kaiousei no Senshi
01-16-2012, 10:50 PM
I think you're misunderstanding what the Lord of Geniture is supposed to be for and how it works in regards to temperament, lord of manners, etc.

But no, just because the Moon and Venus are strong in your chart doesn't mean you'll display "conservative feminine" archetypes. It's akin to saying that men with strong Moons or Venus's are typically effeminate, which is hardly the case.

Rebel Uranian
01-16-2012, 10:55 PM
But no, just because the Moon and Venus are strong in your chart doesn't mean you'll display "conservative feminine" archetypes. It's akin to saying that men with strong Moons or Venus's are typically effeminate, which is hardly the case.

Actually, it was often considered the case for men with strong Moons and Venuses to be effeminate. If I understand correctly, both of these planets are lazy and the former is even flittier than Mercury.

By the way, I'm a melancholic, not a phlegmatic. I say that because I know it's true, not because I want it to be true. I live alone because I want to and the only thing that bothers me about it is the potential instability. Yes, I'm bothered by instability. Now bug off and leave me alone. I mean, please leave me alone. (JK about the last two sentences. That is how I act in real life sometimes, but not here.)

Kaiousei no Senshi
01-16-2012, 11:08 PM
Actually, it was often considered the case for men with strong Moons and Venuses to be effeminate. If I understand correctly, both of these planets are lazy and the former is even flittier than Mercury.

Not specifically. Typically Venus is loose vs refined and the Moon is laziness vs mutability. People with strong ill dignified Venus in their chart are considered more reckless (gambling, keeping bad company, etc), whereas strong Venus well dignified is more societal, perhaps high class, or refined in the arts. I suppose you could call that effeminate by today's standards, but throughout history the famous patrons or fathers of the arts have been men.

By the way, I'm a melancholic, not a phlegmatic. I say that because I know it's true, not because I want it to be true. I live alone because I want to and the only thing that bothers me about it is the potential instability. Yes, I'm bothered by instability.

Yes, I have you clocked as predominately melancholic and secondarily choleric. I think that fits pretty nicely. Melancholics want to be left alone to do things at their own pace and cholerics hate people. I'm Choleric/Sanguine, nice to meet you. :D

Rebel Uranian
01-16-2012, 11:12 PM
You're the second one to explicitly state that you classify me that way. IMO it doesn't bring a very flattering image to mind :/ but I guess it could be awesome if it's well dignified, I mean you could come up with the most profound (melancholic) things and then actually be able to express (choleric) them in the best case. I'm actually some-what close to balanced if that helps. But as to the Moon/Venus thing, both the Moon and Venus are both phlegmatic. Plus I'm terrible at risk-taking (Venus & Jupiter) and I'm stubborn (non-Moon.) I do like arts quite a bit, but I'd say that's more of Venus & the Sun with a bit of Mercury. Venus & the Moon combined is just the classic fertility thing to me.

Edit: More non-Venus-ness. I forgot to say "Hi" back, so... Hello. I told (warned) you I'm close to balanced. Tell people to leave first, remember to be polite later, and I mean completely by accident.

Kaiousei no Senshi
01-17-2012, 12:37 AM
You're the second one to explicitly state that you classify me that way. IMO it doesn't bring a very flattering image to mind :/ but I guess it could be awesome if it's well dignified, I mean you could come up with the most profound (melancholic) things and then actually be able to express (choleric) them in the best case.

A good combination for that would be melancholic/sanguine, and yeah, that's not very common (if it's even possible) since they're opposing temperaments. Choler isn't very good at expressing things that are worthwhile. It's all just a loud, angry blur. :D

I'm actually some-what close to balanced if that helps.

It's good that you feel that way. I tend to vacillate between wanting to socialize and then wanting to be left alone. It's either I really want to do one or I really want to do the other. There's not a medium setting.

Venus & the Moon combined is just the classic fertility thing to me.

I think with this you're taking more modern neo-pagan connotations into account with them. Think about their natures and relate them back to your life some. LoGs aren't these big all-encompassing entities, they're just more flavor that explains some idiosyncrasies of our lives and play a bit more of a role in progressions/transits. Typically you feel them to your LoG more than other planets. Personally, my LoG is Jupiter, and I can see it a lot in my life with my overall attitude, humor, and personality, but I feel my Mars and choler a lot more.

Rebel Uranian
01-17-2012, 12:44 AM
That's why the choler is combined with melancholy, duh. Melancholy can't do anything that's not worthwhile. Sanguine mostly just parties and acts jovial.

Well, I may have misunderstood what you said, but I don't feel my Venus's sociability, or mirthfulness, or refinement, or any of that other stuff. I feel like some sort of nihilist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihilism) even if I can see that I'm not.

Kaiousei no Senshi
01-17-2012, 01:49 AM
That's why the choler is combined with melancholy, duh. Melancholy can't do anything that's not worthwhile. Sanguine mostly just parties and acts jovial.

Sanguine isn't just a socialite, it's also the scholar. It best to think of the temperaments in regards to their qualities and what those qualities can produce when combined, but it's probably best to just start a different topic on that.

Well, I may have misunderstood what you said, but I don't feel my Venus's sociability, or mirthfulness, or refinement, or any of that other stuff. I feel like some sort of nihilist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihilism) even if I can see that I'm not.

And that's fine, you might not. It doesn't mean there's anything wrong with astrology or you, it just means you're a human being who is complicated, conflicted, and oftentimes contradictory. It's just part of the territory really. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HumansAreSpecial)

Rebel Uranian
01-17-2012, 02:20 AM
Sanguine isn't just a socialite, it's also the scholar. It best to think of the temperaments in regards to their qualities and what those qualities can produce when combined, but it's probably best to just start a different topic on that.

I have already done that. (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44049)

And that's fine, you might not. It doesn't mean there's anything wrong with astrology or you, it just means you're a human being who is complicated, conflicted, and oftentimes contradictory. It's just part of the territory really. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HumansAreSpecial)

Actually, it means that there's something wrong with both astrology and me, but that's inevitable. It also depends on how you define wrong. If you think some of what I post is just sarcastic or something and that's why you posted that you don't think I have the control aspect of Saturn, the "sarcasm or something" is usually thoroughly thought-out philosophy that I don't talk about in real life because in real life I can hear how silly it sounds to other people, i.e. my "knowledge is evil" or "it's impossible to believe in God" proofs. I'm not good at feeling truths like other people seem to be.