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newlearner
12-02-2011, 06:54 AM
I am new to astrology and a little confused.
Like we say that for cancer ascedant mercury as the lord of 3H and 12H is malefic and Saturn as the lord of 7H and 8H is malefic for the native. Then how their placements in the natal chart will make them benefic or Malefic for the chart. Like if Saturn is placed in 9H is good and Mercury placed in 12H is malefic. Please explain to me how to combine the lord ownerships and placements of actual planets in determining the malefics and Benefic for a native.

Rebel Uranian
12-10-2011, 07:39 PM
Good and bad are not so clear-cut. I often don't bother with them (curse morality! JK)

Look at the houses they rule. I mostly heard what I think you're talking about used in Vedic astrology techniques. My Vedic Asc is Cappy so Jupiter is malefic for me and Saturn is benefic.

JUPITERASC
12-10-2011, 09:19 PM
I am new to astrology and a little confused.
Like we say that for cancer ascedant mercury as the lord of 3H and 12H is malefic and Saturn as the lord of 7H and 8H is malefic for the native. Then how their placements in the natal chart will make them benefic or Malefic for the chart. Like if Saturn is placed in 9H is good and Mercury placed in 12H is malefic. Please explain to me how to combine the lord ownerships and placements of actual planets in determining the malefics and Benefic for a native.

FUNCTIONAL BENEFIC and MALEFIC PLANETS
In Vedic astrology each Zodiac Sign has Functional Benefic and Malefic Planets. Rahu and Ketu are malefic planets for all Zodiac Signs. Least number of malefic planets are for Gemini Ascendant. Most number of malefic planets are for Taurus, Virgo and Pisces ascendant. Whenever in the nativity benefic planets are weak due to strength, placement, affliction, they tend to cause delay, denial, difficulties, dissatisfaction, obstructions, emotional setbacks, etc. And whenever in the nativity benefic planets are well placed, strong, unafflicted they tend to provide happiness, gains, success, fulfillment of desire in life and early settlement in life. In addition to that whenever malefic planets are afflicting and afflicted they tend to cause obstructions, accidents, miseries, humiliation, serious setbacks, death like situation.


FUNCTIONAL MALEFIC PLANETS AS PER ASCENDANT
Aries: Mercury, Rahu and Ketu.
Taurus: Venus, Jupiter, Mars, Rahu and Ketu.
Gemini: Rahu and Ketu.
Cancer: Jupiter, Saturn, Rahu and Ketu.
Leo: The Moon, Rahu and Ketu.
Virgo: Saturn, Mars, the Sun, Rahu and Ketu.
Libra: Mercury, Rahu and Ketu.
Scorpio: Mars, Venus, Rahu and Ketu.
Sagittarius: The Moon, Rahu and Ketu.
Capricorn: The Sun, Jupiter, Rahu and Ketu.
Aquarius: The Moon, Mercury, Rahu and Ketu.
Pisces: The Sun, Venus, Saturn, Rahu and Ketu.

FUNCTIONAL BENEFIC PLANETS AS PER ASCENDANT
Aries: The Sun, the Moon, Mars, Jupiter, Venus and Saturn.
Taurus: The Sun, the Moon, Mercury and Saturn.
Gemini: The Sun, the Moon, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus and Saturn.
Cancer: The Sun, the Moon, Mars, Mercury, and Venus.
Leo: The Sun, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus and Saturn.
Virgo: The Moon, Mercury, Jupiter and Venus.
Libra: The Sun, the Moon, Mars, Jupiter, Venus and Saturn.
Scorpio: The Sun, the Moon, Mercury, Jupiter and Saturn.
Sagittarius: The Sun, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus and Saturn.
Capricorn: The Moon, Mars, Mercury, Venus and Saturn.
Aquarius: The Sun, Mars, Jupiter, Venus and Saturn.
Pisces: The Moon, Mars, Mercury and Jupiter.

source: http://www.mywebastrologer.com/knowyourplanet.asp :smile:

DreamingTheSeas
12-26-2011, 11:26 AM
A <<bad>> planet could be a planet who makes hard aspects to Sun- Moon- Asc?
In my case, having a Scorpio Mars in 12th house square Sun in 3rd doesn't makes Mars a negative influence?

JUPITERASC
12-26-2011, 11:34 AM
A <<bad>> planet could be a planet who makes hard aspects to Sun- Moon- Asc?
In my case, having a Scorpio Mars in 12th house square Sun in 3rd doesn't makes Mars a negative influence?
newlearner referred to Vedic astrological techniques which differ from western astrological techniques.

For western traditional astrologers mars and saturn are considered the two malefic planets, while venus and jupiter are considered the two malefic planets. Planets can also be 'functional malefics' and 'functional benefics' depending on their placement natally.

Planets in square aspects are generally considered challenging and active - and not necessarily a 'negative' influence as such. :smile:

Moog
12-26-2011, 12:11 PM
Some use sect to determine beneficence or maleficence. A planet in sect is benefic, and out of sect is malefic.

zona967
12-23-2012, 07:37 PM
Some use sect to determine beneficence or maleficence. A planet in sect is benefic, and out of sect is malefic.

So my peregrine Saturn that's under the beams is benefic because it's in sect.

This is getting weirder and weirder.

Moog
12-23-2012, 07:47 PM
So my peregrine Saturn that's under the beams is benefic because it's in sect.

This is getting weirder and weirder.

I'm not so sure about sect anymore. But who knows.

zona967
12-23-2012, 08:02 PM
I'm not so sure about sect anymore. But who knows.

I read something, I go, this is it! Then I read something else and go, no, throw away the previous one, that's not it. However, that's how you actually learn things. In modern astrology you just accumulate data and never discard anything, so how do you know you've learned something?

JUPITERASC
12-23-2012, 09:50 PM
So my peregrine Saturn that's under the beams is benefic because it's in sect.

This is getting weirder and weirder.
Clearly that is your perception :smile:

HOWEVER it's only reasonable to remember that information obtained on an internet forum is given randomly by astrologers who follow different branches of astrology which may differ subtly regarding particular astrological definitions. Moog for example is a sidereal Vedic astrologer - whereas IN CONTRAST some members of this forum are traditional tropical astrologers, while others follow Hellenistic methods, and others other methods as is evidenced by the various boards on this forum. Also each member has different levels of experience and in fact many members are themselves beginners who simply have an interest but have not yet had time to have studied astrology in any depth.

Furthermore, to be fair, the information provided on an internet forum has little or no coherence as it does not form part of a structured course. Skyscript is an exception as there is on offer there, a structured horary course free gratis and for nothing http://www.skyscript.co.uk/

That's why it's a good idea to complete a recognised course of instruction from an acknowledged professional such as eg http://www.martingansten.com/index.php or alternatively http://www.kepler.edu/home/

Meanwhile -

Being in sect does not automatically grant benefic status.

Here's an Hellenistic definition of sect :smile:
So,

Saturn and Jupiter are of the diurnal sect, whether or not that sect is in favour.

Saturn and Jupiter are the Sun’s co-sectarians.

Venus and Mars are of the nocturnal sect, whether or not that sect is in favour.

Venus and Mars are the Moon’s co-sectarians.


Mercury as a morning star is of the diurnal sect, whether or not that sect is in favour.

Mercury as a morning star is the Sun’s co-sectarian, along with Saturn and Jupiter.


Mercury as an evening star is of the nocturnal sect, whether or not that sect is in favour.

Mercury as an evening star is the Moon’s co-sectarian, along with Venus and Mars.

i.e.

If the chart is a day chart, then the diurnal sect is in favour and the Sun is the sect leader and Jupiter and Saturn are the planets of the sect in favour: and if Mercury is a morning star, then Mercury too is of the sect in favour.

If the chart is a night chart, then the nocturnal sect is in favour and the Moon is the sect leader and Venus and Mars are of the sect in favour: and if Mercury is an evening star, then Mercury too is of the sect in favour


So, regarding the horizon:

The diurnal planets are happier if they are above the horizon in a day chart, and below it in a night chart.

Likewise, the nocturnal planets are happier if they are above the horizon in a night chart, and below it in a day chart.

This is not really a condition of sect—it does not define sect in any way. This is only a way to further determine the strength, or mood of any particular planet. And it’s only adding or subtracting mildly from the planet.

So for example:

In a diurnal chart the Sun is the sect light (the leader of the sect), and Jupiter and Saturn are the planets of the Sect.

If Jupiter and Saturn are above the horizon they are really happy.

If below the horizon in the diurnal chart Jupiter and Saturn are still of the diurnal sect—they are still of the sect in favour—but they are not going to be as happy.

And in the same chart if Venus is below the horizon, although she is not of the sect in favour, she is happier, in this diurnal chart, than she would be if she was above the horizon.


What it means when a planet is “out of sect”

If a planet is out of sect, then it is the wrong time of day for the planet. Saturn and Jupiter are out of sect in night charts, and Venus and Mars are out of sect in day charts.

Mercury as a morning star makes it a diurnal planet, so Mercury is ‘out of sect’ in a night chart

Mercury as an evening star makes it a nocturnal planet, so Mercury is ‘out of sect’ in a day chart.:smile:

zona967
12-23-2012, 10:45 PM
Furthermore, to be fair, the information provided on an internet forum has little or no coherence as it does not form part of a structured course.

A nice reminder. :)

Skyscript is an exception as there is on offer there, a structured horary course free gratis and for nothing http://www.skyscript.co.uk/

I've read a couple of the articles there and am still reading. :)

Here's an Hellenistic definition of sect

Thanks for the clarifications. :)

Moog
12-23-2012, 11:37 PM
I read something, I go, this is it! Then I read something else and go, no, throw away the previous one, that's not it. However, that's how you actually learn things. In modern astrology you just accumulate data and never discard anything, so how do you know you've learned something?

Well, I don't know if that's true for modern western astrology. It seems (opinions ahead...) comparatively slight in terms of material needed to be learned to get going, and then highly reliant on intuitive insight to 'make the goods'.

I think traditional astrologies are more of a science, so you know you've learned something when your astrology practice is more accurately correlating objectively with actual manifested realities.

dr. farr
12-24-2012, 03:32 AM
I thinks it depends upon WHICH authors one studies, particularly regarding Miodernist Western astrology: as an eclectic I have taken my approach from numerous sources, ancient, medieval and modern, west and east; however I will say that the works of early Modernist Western astrological authors have left a deep impression upon me: Charles Carter, Vivian Robson, M.P. Hall, Frankland, even Sepaharial and George Llewlyn, had a great deal to say, and I would encourage a study of their works-especially the books by Charles Carter.

Kaiousei no Senshi
12-24-2012, 09:32 AM
I briefly touched on this in another thread, but so far my working knowledge of malevolent and benevolent planets works on two levels. I feel I should preface this by saying that (for the sake of clarity) I'm a traditional medieval astrologer who also uses Hellenistic techniques.

So, the first level is natural benefic or malefic planets which are Venus and Jupiter, and Mars and Saturn respectively.

The second level are those that are considered functional malefics. These are planets that rule bad places in the natal chart (the 6th, 8th, and 12th) because no matter which planet wins the draw, they will always carry these unfortunate associations with the native. Sect is another way for planets to express their benevolence and maleficence, as Moog pointed out. Planets out of sect tend to work against the native. Being overcome, enclosed, struck by a ray, or ill-disposed by malevolent planets also makes a planet malevolent.

Now, there's something that has to be remembered when discussing this topic, and it's why you don't see it brought up very often in medieval literature. Typically around this time in the tradition you don't see an emphasis on planets behaving evilly, you will often see accounts of what makes Mars and Saturn functional benefics, but when it comes to examples of Venus and Jupiter being functional malefics, it isn't something that you can ever really find. Also, the idea behind what a malefic does is different depending on the era you're researching. In the earlier periods, malefics caused bad things, but in the mid to late medieval period, they only subtract from the good because the idea that God could create something that was evil was unheard of. Just something to keep in mind about how philosophy has changed over the years and how you have to adopt these mindsets and worldviews to understand.

dr. farr
12-25-2012, 03:32 AM
Personally I consider the nature (essential nature) of planets along the lines of anabolic versus catabolic (rather than "good" or "bad"), although for convenience sake in postings I do usually use the terms "benefic" and "malefic". Certainly under various circumstances an essentially anabolic planet can become a functional catabolic, and vice versa. Also, the Moon can be essentially both: ie, anabolic in its waxing phase, catabolic in its waning phase. Mercury, while I think it is essentially anabolic, I tend to look at more as transmissive and informational.

Moog
12-25-2012, 05:40 PM
Here's (http://varahamihira.blogspot.co.uk/2004/06/functional-nature-of-planets-i.html) a detailed explanation of the Vedic (Parashara) way of assessing functional benefics and malefics.

Personally I find it more useful to think specifically about the houses ruled by planets, rather than rounding them out into either one or the other, malefic or benefic. That doesn't get at the specificity of what they will bring into one's life.

To my mind, malefic and benefic 'work' as labels, in that they describe planets that symbolise experiences that humans generally do not enjoy, and would rather avoid. But I suspect that on another level, there is just experience, and 'Bad' experiences lead to growth, 'spiritual' and otherwise.

"What doesn't kill you makes you stronger"

venuschild
08-07-2014, 07:27 PM
Very Easy solution on this one!

STUDY!

http://www.renaissanceastrology.com/images/rameseyportrait.jpg

http://www.amazon.com/Astrologia-Restaurata-Astrology-William-Ramesey/dp/1162632259 (http://www.amazon.com/Astrologia-Restaurata-Astrology-William-Ramesey/dp/1162632259)

It totally amazes me how many students of astrology may in fact be 'slackers'!