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paraskeyh
09-19-2011, 10:47 PM
Hello from me ,can someone help me or find the hyleg and alcoccoden for me in these natal charts,i am confused.Natal 1:08-14-1981 at 9:00 in the morning Lamia Greece and Natal 2:08-11-1982 at 13:30 noon in Lamia Greece too.I am trying 3 days to find them so to know the life span of me and my husband approximately.Thanks in advance for your answers.

JUPITERASC
09-19-2011, 10:59 PM
Hello from me ,can someone help me or find the hyleg and alcoccoden for me in these natal charts,i am confused.Natal 1:08-14-1981 at 9:00 in the morning Lamia Greece and Natal 2:08-11-1982 at 13:30 noon in Lamia Greece too.I am trying 3 days to find them so to know the life span of me and my husband approximately.Thanks in advance for your answers.

paraskeyh, this link shows you how to post your natal charts to this forum http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12126 for that you need to go to astro.com, from there, if you choose Extended Chart Selection Page you can select from fourteen different house systems (the default is Placidus) but if you would like to choose another from those on offer, then you can.

here is a link to a pdf by Bernadette Brady on the Hyleg and the Alcoccoden http://www.bernadettebrady.com/Pdfs/Hyleg.pdf (including a summary of the technique) :smile:

paraskeyh
09-20-2011, 01:09 PM
Thank you very much i will attach it :happy:

astrologer50
09-20-2011, 02:53 PM
Why don't you just focus on life instead of death? seems a rather morbid interest and I don't believe there is a death signature that is 100% reliable. You could say your chart in 'ancient days' you could have died 2x, but with modern day medical science and interventions people are living longer and longer.

Having said all the aforementioned...

Hyleg
Definition of HylegThe Giver of Life. Said of a planet so located as to have influence upon the longevity of the native. It is one of the most complex and controversial subjects in the field of astrology, but which has fallen more or less in disfavour as the result of the concept that any attempt to predict the time of death is now generally considered unethical. When it had progressed to an aspect to the place of the Anareta, the taker-away of life, the native was presumed to have run his span and death ensued.
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/dictionary/hyleg.php (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/dictionary/hyleg.php)

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/hyleg.html (http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/hyleg.html)
http://www.astrology-x-files.com/x-files/hyleg.html (http://www.astrology-x-files.com/x-files/hyleg.html)
http://astrotribe.tribe.net/thread/ca4a7493-dab1-4d06-98b0-7e94873d7a01 (http://astrotribe.tribe.net/thread/ca4a7493-dab1-4d06-98b0-7e94873d7a01)

JUPITERASC
09-20-2011, 05:43 PM
Why don't you just focus on life instead of death? seems a rather morbid interest

Everyone is entitled to have their own interests and opinions - clearly not everyone thinks death morbid. Medieval astrologers delineated death. :smile:

Western Predictive Astrology is some 2000 years old. Modern Psychological astrology has only developed over the last 100 years. Modern astrology normally passes for mainstream astrology in the West today and in its most watered down version is called Sun-Sign astrology. The fundamental difference is that Modern astrology cannot be used for accurate prediction and is basically character analysis.

Medieval or Western Predictive Astrology is a predictive Art that concerns itself not just with the temporal, worldly affairs of men and women, their societies and nations but deals with the deep spiritual and philosophical questions that lie at the root of Western civilisation and thought. It is the astrology that all the great masters of astrology, without exception, have studied. Source: Robert Zoller http://www.new-library.com/index.php

paraskeyh
09-21-2011, 08:30 PM
I agree with you JUPITERASC, i attached the two charts.The first is mine and the second is the chart of my husband.

JUPITERASC
09-21-2011, 09:44 PM
I agree with you JUPITERASC, i attached the two charts.The first is mine and the second is the chart of my husband.

The link to the pdf I posted initially at http://www.bernadettebrady.com/Pdfs/Hyleg.pdf has all instructions required to determine the Hyleg and the Alcoccoden.

If you need some assistance then scroll down to Page 11 which has an example chart (Charlie Chaplin) illustrating the method - so if you would like to, then read the information regarding how Charlie Chaplin's Hyleg and Alcoccoden have been determined and then apply the information to your charts.

If you need information regarding the Triplicities here's a link that would be useful for you http://www.skyscript.co.uk/triplicities.html :smile:

paraskeyh
09-21-2011, 09:59 PM
Ok thank you ,i 've read Bernadette and i will come up with some thoughts tomorrow cause i find this method a little bit difficult for me.Its the the first time wich i deal with this.I will present my thoughts and you will tell me where you think i m right or wrong:joyful:

JUPITERASC
09-22-2011, 12:30 AM
Ok thank you ,i 've read Bernadette and i will come up with some thoughts tomorrow cause i find this method a little bit difficult for me.Its the the first time wich i deal with this.I will present my thoughts and you will tell me where you think i m right or wrong:joyful:

Paraskeyh – for the sake of clarity, it is important to notice that Bernadette Brady has used Alcabitius houses for all the charts she uses in order to illustrate her instructions for determining the Hyleg and the Alcoccoden of Charlie Chaplain's chart.

Whereas the charts you have posted are using Placidus houses.

On astro.com you can choose from fourteen different House Systems including Alcabitius Houses by clicking on Extended Chart Selection which brings you to a page on which you can then find the words 'House System' - click on 'default' and a drop down menu appears. From there, if you choose Alcabitius Houses for your charts, then when you delineate using Bernadette Brady's method there shall be no confusion caused by differing house systems. :smile:

dr. farr
09-22-2011, 03:09 AM
The Alchabitius house system was actually developed in the 7th century by the neo-Classical astrologer, Rhetorius. It later swept through the Islamic astrological world and was the dominant-indeed pretty much the only-house system in use from the 9th century through the 14th century (the Porphyry system was a minority system, mostly in Europe, during those centuries) and it is still in general use in the Middle East today. The renowned 13th century astrologer, Guido Bonatti, exclusively used the Alchabitius house system format for all of his astrological applications (astro-medical, mundane, horary, elections, natal delineations)

I myself have no experience with this house format system, having adopted the whole sign house format over the past decade, after a long time previous use of Placidus...

paraskeyh
09-25-2011, 10:46 PM
Paraskeyh – for the sake of clarity, it is important to notice that Bernadette Brady has used Alcabitius houses for all the charts she uses in order to illustrate her instructions for determining the Hyleg and the Alcoccoden of Charlie Chaplain's chart.

Whereas the charts you have posted are using Placidus houses.

On astro.com you can choose from fourteen different House Systems including Alcabitius Houses by clicking on Extended Chart Selection which brings you to a page on which you can then find the words 'House System' - click on 'default' and a drop down menu appears. From there, if you choose Alcabitius Houses for your charts, then when you delineate using Bernadette Brady's method there shall be no confusion caused by differing house systems. :smile:
Οh my God what a mistake!:innocent: Thanks for pointed it to me i will check it.

paraskeyh
09-25-2011, 10:49 PM
The Alchabitius house system was actually developed in the 7th century by the neo-Classical astrologer, Rhetorius. It later swept through the Islamic astrological world and was the dominant-indeed pretty much the only-house system in use from the 9th century through the 14th century (the Porphyry system was a minority system, mostly in Europe, during those centuries) and it is still in general use in the Middle East today. The renowned 13th century astrologer, Guido Bonatti, exclusively used the Alchabitius house system format for all of his astrological applications (astro-medical, mundane, horary, elections, natal delineations)

I myself have no experience with this house format system, having adopted the whole sign house format over the past decade, after a long time previous use of Placidus...

It's good to know, i have never used any other system since today.

paraskeyh
09-25-2011, 11:35 PM
Ok now i have the charts but mars from astro com is in 1st house and with Kepler i calculate it in 12th house.Anyway

JUPITERASC
09-26-2011, 12:05 AM
Ok now i have the charts but mars from astro com is in 1st house and with Kepler i calculate it in 12th house.Anyway
Pages 9 & 10 at this link already previously given http://www.bernadettebrady.com/Pdfs/Hyleg.pdf explain clearly how to find the Hyleg - there are several methods you can use to find the Hyleg and out of interest, you can experiment with all. It is good to practice and understand for yourself how the method is applied :smile:

paraskeyh
09-26-2011, 12:12 AM
My chart(the first): According to Bonatti's Method(correct me if i'm wrong)Sun must be the Hyleg because its Diurnal chart and sun is in 10th in masculine singn.BUT noone from the planets wich have dignity(ruler,exalt,tripl and term i dont know if face or detri counts) make aspect with sun only saturn detri or detrium (i dont know what this word means).So the Sun cannot be the hyleg because it hasnt got Alcoccoden.Second ,the moon cannot again be the Hyleg cause is in feminine sign but in 6th house,i dont know if the conjuction with the 7th house counts, look at the chart for help.So the only thing wich must be the hyleg is the Part Of Fortune(my chart is Preventional) cause Jupiter has the greatest dignity and makes a square with it too.Venus also makes aspect with the Part of Fortune(conjuction)but has smaller dignity there,so Jupiter is the Alcoccoden.Jupiter in Scorpio in 12th house conjucts ascedant and Mars and makes an opposition with moon in taurus,a square with venus in cancer in the 9th house and a very fortunate sextile with mercury in Virgo the 10th.So if i am correct i take the jupiters Lesser or Middle years?And what i am going to do with the other planets?I need your guidance..

JUPITERASC
09-26-2011, 12:59 AM
My chart(the first): According to Bonatti's Method(correct me if i'm wrong)Sun must be the Hyleg because its Diurnal chart and sun is in 10th in masculine singn.BUT noone from the planets wich have dignity(ruler,exalt,tripl and term i dont know if face or detri counts) make aspect with sun only saturn detri or detrium (i dont know what this word means).So the Sun cannot be the hyleg because it hasnt got Alcoccoden.Second ,the moon cannot again be the Hyleg cause is in feminine sign but in 6th house,i dont know if the conjuction with the 7th house counts, look at the chart for help.So the only thing wich must be the hyleg is the Part Of Fortune(my chart is Preventional) cause Jupiter has the greatest dignity and makes a square with it too.Venus also makes aspect with the Part of Fortune(conjuction)but has smaller dignity there,so Jupiter is the Alcoccoden.Jupiter in Scorpio in 12th house conjucts ascedant and Mars and makes an opposition with moon in taurus,a square with venus in cancer in the 9th house and a very fortunate sextile with mercury in Virgo the 10th.So if i am correct i take the jupiters Lesser or Middle years?And what i am going to do with the other planets?I need your guidance..

If a planet is situated in a sign which opposes its own it is said to be in detriment, a word which literally means to be harmed or damaged. Since a planet's own sign is regarded as its stronghold, it follows that the furthest sign from this should be viewed as its most vulnerable position.

1. Using Bernadette Brady's favored Alcabitius Houses, your sun is in the 9th at 18 Leo 25 39 (because cusp of 10th house begins at 19 Leo 30 02) Sun is therefore not in 10th but according at least to Ptolomy can be Hyleg since Sun is in 9th

2. Bonnati says (a) if the sun is in the 1st 11th or 10th and in a feminine sign then it is Hyleg
alternatively (b) if the sun is in 7th, 8th or 9th house and in a masculine sign then it is Hyleg
therefore according to Bonnati Sun in 9th in masculine is Hyleg and Ptolemy agrees
Ptolemy says Sun is Hyleg because Sun is in 9th House

Next we seek a planet in aspect to Leo Sun that has greatest dignity in degree occupied by Hyleg Sun

Saturn is in detriment in Cancer and Leo, so Saturn is indeed in detriment in the degree occupied by the Leo Sun... however nevertheless Saturn does have some dignity in the degree occupied by the Sun because Sun at that degree is in the Face of Saturn

Note that Saturn in this chart is at 17 Libra 47 42 in its own Terms as well as being in its Exaltation sign of Libra.

Sun is in close sextile with Saturn therefore Saturn (only just) qualifies as Alcoccoden

Lets check if any other planets are aspecting Sun :smile:

JUPITERASC
09-26-2011, 01:06 AM
Exalted Taurus Moon aspects Sun by square but has no dignity at the degree occupied by the Sun therefore Saturn remains Alcoccoden for the time being, at least according to Ptolemy

Next step is to check out Mars and Jupiter both of whom are in square aspect to Leo Sun :smile:

JUPITERASC
09-26-2011, 01:12 AM
Scorpio Jupiter has no dignity at the degree occupied by Leo Sun so is immediately out of the contest as is Scorpio Mars for the same reason (although Mars is strong being in own Domicile, Triplicity, Term and Face)

Saturn appears to have won the contest by being the sole contender who has any dignity at all in the degree occupied by the Leo Sun

Would you agree or disagree? :smile:

dr. farr
09-26-2011, 03:45 AM
Mercury seems at least to be a contender re to the 8/11/82 natal chart:
-in its sign of both rulership and exaltation (and flowing toward its exact exaltation degree in Virgo)
-in an elevated degree of Virgo
-in its own term (whether Egyptian of Ptolemaic terms are considered)
-posited in the angular 10th Alchabitius house (would be in the 11th succedent in whole sign)
-Mercury is always in sect (according to Abu Mashar and others) so diurnal/nocturnal wouldn't really apply as a consideration re to Mercury re to the issue of sect
-Dorotheus of Sidon and other early Greco/Roman authors would also have considered a Virgo Mercury as being in its triplicity, since they gave Virgo 4 triplicity rulers (unlike any ofther sign, Mercury being considered a night triplicity lord of Virgo; however, since this is a diurnal chart, considering Mercury as being in its triplicity, might be doubtful)
-Mercury is in applying sextile to the ascending degree
-Moon/Mercury are within 22 minutes of a perfected (partile) trine, although the Moon is just barely seperating from the perfect aspect (Moon is seperating by a mere 22 minutes of arc)

...what do you think??

JUPITERASC
09-26-2011, 04:28 AM
Mercury seems at least to be a contender re to the 8/11/82 natal chart:
-in its sign of both rulership and exaltation (and flowing toward its exact exaltation degree in Virgo)
-in an elevated degree of Virgo
-in its own term (whether Egyptian of Ptolemaic terms are considered)
-posited in the angular 10th Alchabitius house (would be in the 11th succedent in whole sign)
-Mercury is always in sect (according to Abu Mashar and others) so diurnal/nocturnal wouldn't really apply as a consideration re to Mercury re to the issue of sect
-Dorotheus of Sidon and other early Greco/Roman authors would also have considered a Virgo Mercury as being in its triplicity, since they gave Virgo 4 triplicity rulers (unlike any ofther sign, Mercury being considered a night triplicity lord of Virgo; however, since this is a diurnal chart, considering Mercury as being in its triplicity, might be doubtful)
-Mercury is in applying sextile to the ascending degree
-Moon/Mercury are within 22 minutes of a perfected (partile) trine, although the Moon is just barely seperating from the perfect aspect (Moon is seperating by a mere 22 minutes of arc)

...what do you think??

According to Ptolemy and Bonatti method (at least as outlined by Bernadette Brady) and as previously delineated

1. (a) Ptolemy says Leo Sun is Hyleg.
(b) Bonatti agrees Leo Sun is Hyleg

2. Any planetary candidate for Alcoccoden must (a) aspect Hyleg (b) have some dignity in the degree occupied by Hyleg - Saturn fulfils this rule

3. However Virgo Mercury is Disjunct/Inconjunct Sun therefore not in classical aspect to Leo Sun Hyleg and cannot be Alcoccoden

I agree Strong Virgo Mercury is in good aspect to Taurus Moon - however, according to Alcabitius Houses Moon is in 6th House therefore cannot be considered as Hyleg

We are using Alcabitius Houses simply because that is the house system of choice for Bernadette Brady who has illustrated her method (which is derived from Ptolemy, Bonatti et al by using Alcabitius...) Obviously different results would have been obtained by using an alternative House system, such as Whole Sign for example :smile:

dr. farr
09-26-2011, 07:20 AM
Right, makes sense (within the context of the Alchabitius house system model being used)

Note that in whole sign, the Moon is in the angular 7th house.

Actually in practice I have little experience with Hylegs, etc: I myself have always been satisfied with taking the Pars Hyleg, for all purposes, whic, in my line, have mostly been for astro-therapeutic delineations...

paraskeyh
09-26-2011, 06:40 PM
1. Using Bernadette Brady's favored Alcabitius Houses, your sun is in the 9th at 18 Leo 25 39 (because cusp of 10th house begins at 19 Leo 30 02) Sun is therefore not in 10th but according at least to Ptolomy can be Hyleg since Sun is in 9th

With Kepler my sun is in tenth,with astro.com calculations is in 9 house so what to do?

... however nevertheless Saturn does have some dignity in the degree occupied by the Sun because Sun at that degree is in the Face of Saturn

Where did you see it?

Sun is in close sextile with Saturn therefore Saturn (only just) qualifies as Alcoccoden

Lets check if any other planets are aspecting Sun :smile:[/QUOTE]
No other planet aspects the sun except Saturn,i dont see any aspects with moon ,mars and jupiter.Am i doing something wrong?

paraskeyh
09-26-2011, 06:52 PM
Scorpio Jupiter has no dignity at the degree occupied by Leo Sun so is immediately out of the contest as is Scorpio Mars for the same reason (although Mars is strong being in own Triplicity, Term and Face)

Saturn appears to have won the contest by being the sole contender who has any dignity at all in the degree occupied by the Leo Sun

Would you agree or disagree? :smile:

Ok if sun then is the Hyleg and Saturn is Alcoccoden then i add the Middle or the Greater years of Saturn? I ask this because Saturn is in very good condition by sign but in bad house. Second thing i want to know is:Saturn isnt make any aspects only the sextile with the Hyleg sun ,so what to do,should i add the Hyleg lesser years and the middle as months or i keep only saturn?

JUPITERASC
09-26-2011, 11:53 PM
Ok if sun then is the Hyleg and Saturn is Alcoccoden then i add the Middle or the Greater years of Saturn? I ask this because Saturn is in very good condition by sign but in bad house. Second thing i want to know is:Saturn isnt make any aspects only the sextile with the Hyleg sun ,so what to do,should i add the Hyleg lesser years and the middle as months or i keep only saturn?

If any other planet were in the 12th house then that would be an accidental debility but we are considering Saturn, the greater malefic who has accidental dignity in 12th House because 12th is the house of Saturns Joy.

So Libra Saturn is in Exaltation, in own Terms, in House of Joy 12th, sextile Leo Sun whose degree is in the Face of Saturn therefore Saturn is fit to be Alcoccoden (at least according to Bernadette Brady's advice which uses Alcabitius Houses)

Although Hyleg Sun is in Leo and Leo is a sign in which Saturn is in detriment, Saturn has minor dignity by Face in the degree occupied by Leo Sun and in my view there is sufficient reason to take the Greater Years of Saturn. However, I would be interested to learn dr. farr's viewpoint on this particular aspect.

Deborah Houlding of Skyscript tells us that the use of planetary joys is very ancient - it was a prominent consideration in classical astrology and has remained a pertinent factor throughout traditional texts. There is good reason to believe that some house meanings have developed as a result of the strong association between the planets and their houses of joy. Manilius referred to a planet in its house of joy as being in its temple, illustrating the very deep and profound relationship that exists between the house and its associated planet. :smile:

paraskeyh
09-27-2011, 11:10 AM
If any other planet were in the 12th house then that would be an accidental debility but we are considering Saturn, the greater malefic who has accidental dignity in 12th House because 12th is the house of Saturns Joy.

So Libra Saturn is in Exaltation, in own Terms, in House of Joy 12th, sextile Leo Sun whose degree is in the Face of Saturn therefore Saturn is fit to be Alcoccoden (at least according to Bernadette Brady's advice which uses Alcabitius Houses)

Although Hyleg Sun is in Leo and Leo is a sign in which Saturn is in detriment, Saturn has minor dignity by Face in the degree occupied by Leo Sun and in my view there is sufficient reason to take the Greater Years of Saturn. However, I would be interested to learn dr. farr's viewpoint on this particular aspect.

Deborah Houlding of Skyscript tells us that the use of planetary joys is very ancient - it was a prominent consideration in classical astrology and has remained a pertinent factor throughout traditional texts. There is good reason to believe that some house meanings have developed as a result of the strong association between the planets and their houses of joy. Manilius referred to a planet in its house of joy as being in its temple, illustrating the very deep and profound relationship that exists between the house and its associated planet. :smile:

I agree :joyful:(relief).So i dont count th Hylegs years at all?

JUPITERASC
09-27-2011, 08:08 PM
I agree :joyful:(relief).So i dont count th Hylegs years at all?

Bernadette Brady's instructions seem to imply that the answer is not to count the Hylegs years at all. :smile:

paraskeyh
09-27-2011, 09:10 PM
Ok :sad:, how much is the deviation in years ?I mean if we say 57 maybe is 53 or 60?And i want to check the second chart also.

paraskeyh
09-27-2011, 09:33 PM
Ok :sad:, how much is the deviation in years ?I mean if we say 57 maybe is 53 or 60?And i want to check the second chart also.

My thoughts for second chart:Is sun the Hyleg?The chart is diurnal and Sun is in masculine sign but in 12 house so i dont think it is.Moon is in cadent house but not in feminine sign so isnt the moon either.Because the chart is Conjuctional i take the degree of the ascedant.Venus conjucts the ascedant and has dignity there.So the Ascedant is the Hyleg and Venus the Alcoccoden,also Mars sextile the ascedant but has no dignity there.With Venus as Alcoccoden i take the Middle or the Greater because the sign of Virgo is the worst but still Venus is in first House.Also Venus is in semi-sextile with Mercury is this counts? I mean semi-squares ,semi-sextiles etc..

JUPITERASC
09-27-2011, 09:34 PM
Ok :sad:, how much is the deviation in years ?I mean if we say 57 maybe is 53 or 60?And i want to check the second chart also.

Better to take time and take care to study the method with care and eliminate all possible eventualities before drawing any hasty conclusions... after all, there are concerns regarding Saturn being in detriment in the degree occupied by the Sun as well as having only minor dignity... basically Saturn appeared to have won because Saturn was the sole entrant to the contest :smile:

However on page 9, note 20 states: "Bonatti considered that a planet in a Cadent house within about eight degrees of an angular house is considered to be angular" which, so far as the chart we are studying is concerned, indicates that, since both Mars and the Moon are within eight degrees of the 1st and 7th houses respectively, then presumably either Mars or the Moon could qualify as Alcoccoden. Since Bonatti uses Alacibitus houses our next step must be (while keeping Saturn in mind) to analyse both Mars and the Moon for their potentiality as Alcoccodens.

So let's complete our analysis of chart 1 by checking the dignities and debilities of both Mars and the Moon - using the points system at this link http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig5.html

Would you agree or disagree? :smile:

paraskeyh
09-27-2011, 09:49 PM
Better to take time and take care to study the method with care and eliminate all possible eventualities before drawing any hasty conclusions... after all, there are concerns regarding Saturn being in detriment in the degree occupied by the Sun as well as having only minor dignity... basically Saturn appeared to have won because Saturn was the sole entrant to the contest :smile:

However on page 9, note 20 states: "Bonatti considered that a planet in a Cadent house within about eight degrees of an angular house is considered to be angular" which, so far as the chart we are studying is concerned, indicates that, since both Mars and the Moon are within eight degrees of the 1st and 7th houses respectively, then presumably either Mars or the Moon could qualify as Alcoccoden. Since Bonatti uses Alacibitus houses our next step must be (while keeping Saturn in mind) to analyse both Mars and the Moon for their potentiality as Alcoccodens.

So let's complete our analysis of chart 1. Would you agree or disagree? :smile:

I agree with you 100% thats why in one of my posts i said i am not so sure about the sun-saturn and i asked if my moon conjucts the seventh house even is in sixth.And Jupiter also could be alcoccoden?

JUPITERASC
09-27-2011, 09:59 PM
I agree with you 100% thats why in one of my posts i said i am not so sure about the sun-saturn and i asked if my moon conjucts the seventh house even is in sixth.And Jupiter also could be alcoccoden?

When analysing a method it is best to check all possible analytical procedures: Saturn, although in detriment does have dignity (albeit the least dignity) and therefore is the sole qualifier following the initial part of the method. Remember, ancient astrologers did not input everything into computers but used their own judgement.

Because Bernadette Brady mentions Bonatti's eight degree rule there is no harm in applying it in order to check it out, so our next step now is to assess the strengths of Jupiter, Mars and the Moon regarding which planet has the greatest essential dignity and Skyscript has a great page that shows exactly how to add and subtract for each planet in order to guage planetary strength according to this particular method. As you have said, Jupiter is a possible contender also http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig5.html :smile:

paraskeyh
09-27-2011, 09:59 PM
Moon could be the Hyleg even the chart is diurnal if moon considered to be angular.Also Mercury has face there and aspects moon too.

JUPITERASC
09-27-2011, 10:01 PM
Moon could be the Hyleg even the chart is diurnal if moon considered to be angular.Also Mercury has face there and aspects moon too.
dr. farr drew our attention to Mercury and the sequence of responses was as follows
Mercury seems at least to be a contender re to the 8/11/82 natal chart:
-in its sign of both rulership and exaltation (and flowing toward its exact exaltation degree in Virgo)
-in an elevated degree of Virgo
-in its own term (whether Egyptian of Ptolemaic terms are considered)
-posited in the angular 10th Alchabitius house (would be in the 11th succedent in whole sign)
-Mercury is always in sect (according to Abu Mashar and others) so diurnal/nocturnal wouldn't really apply as a consideration re to Mercury re to the issue of sect
-Dorotheus of Sidon and other early Greco/Roman authors would also have considered a Virgo Mercury as being in its triplicity, since they gave Virgo 4 triplicity rulers (unlike any ofther sign, Mercury being considered a night triplicity lord of Virgo; however, since this is a diurnal chart, considering Mercury as being in its triplicity, might be doubtful)
-Mercury is in applying sextile to the ascending degree
-Moon/Mercury are within 22 minutes of a perfected (partile) trine, although the Moon is just barely seperating from the perfect aspect (Moon is seperating by a mere 22 minutes of arc)

...what do you think??
the response was:
According to Ptolemy and Bonatti method (at least as outlined by Bernadette Brady) and as previously delineated

1. (a) Ptolemy says Leo Sun is Hyleg.
(b) Bonatti agrees Leo Sun is Hyleg

2. Any planetary candidate for Alcoccoden must (a) aspect Hyleg (b) have some dignity in the degree occupied by Hyleg - Saturn fulfils this rule

3. However Virgo Mercury is Disjunct/Inconjunct Sun therefore not in classical aspect to Leo Sun Hyleg and cannot be Alcoccoden

I agree Strong Virgo Mercury is in good aspect to Taurus Moon - however, according to Alcabitius Houses Moon is in 6th House therefore cannot be considered as Hyleg

We are using Alcabitius Houses simply because that is the house system of choice for Bernadette Brady who has illustrated her method (which is derived from Ptolemy, Bonatti et al by using Alcabitius...) Obviously different results would have been obtained by using an alternative House system, such as Whole Sign for example :smile:
Bernadette did not include the eight degree rule in the main assessment but simply placed it as a minor added note and dr. farr agreed
Right, makes sense (within the context of the Alchabitius house system model being used)

Note that in whole sign, the Moon is in the angular 7th house.

Actually in practice I have little experience with Hylegs, etc: I myself have always been satisfied with taking the Pars Hyleg, for all purposes, whic, in my line, have mostly been for astro-therapeutic delineations...

The assessment continues do check the link which guides you in guaging planetary strength http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig5.html :smile:

paraskeyh
09-27-2011, 10:14 PM
Something that concerns me is that in Bonatti's Method says -The four rulers(rulership,exaltation,triplicity and term) and not face,detri or fall what do you think about this?

JUPITERASC
09-27-2011, 10:30 PM
Something that concerns me is that in Bonatti's Method says -The four rulers(rulership,exaltation,triplicity and term) and not face,detri or fall what do you think about this?

It is good that you are observant and enjoy questioning everything... you are correct... The four rulers domicile, exaltation, triplicity and term are the strongest. Face has the least strength, it is only a very minor dignity and so Bonatti would have eliminated Saturn immediately. We can only assume that Ptolemy would have accepted Saturn as Alcoccoden because of the very slight dignity of 'Face'... however we do not know for certain because apparently Ptolemy never wrote that.

But Bonatti did. Therefore at this stage we can briefly summarise:
(1) As far as Ptolemy is concerned Saturn fulfils sufficiently the criteria for Alcoccoden
(2) however, we have our doubts - because of Saturn's sorry state
(3) So we now continue with the assessment by following Bonatti's rules

on astro.com when you have your natal chart on screen we can click on 'View the additional tables PDF' which then produces a table showing speed of planets (needed to calculate one of the essential dignities/debilites on the link I gave earlier http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig5.html) :smile:

paraskeyh
09-28-2011, 08:49 PM
Ok ,what do you think about the moon?

JUPITERASC
09-28-2011, 10:31 PM
Ok ,what do you think about the moon?
Your question is general. Think about the moon in relation to what? :smile:

JUPITERASC
09-28-2011, 10:43 PM
Moon could be the Hyleg even the chart is diurnal if moon considered to be angular.Also Mercury has face there and aspects moon too.

If you mean that you think that the Moon could be the Hyleg, well it could be, but only if Sun does not fulfil conditions for Hyleg but in this case the Sun has been established as Hyleg.

Currently then, since Saturn is eliminated by Bonatti (if not Ptolemy) then we check any planets in aspect to the Hyleg (in this case the Sun) to establish which of these could be Alcoccoden.

Jupiter and Mars are conjunct in Scorpio and of the two Mars has the greater dignity (Jupiter has no dignity at all in Scorpio) whereas Mars is domicile, Triplicity, Term ruler, so Mars could be Alcoccoden

Now to check the Moon.
Moon is in Taurus in own Domicile, Exaltation, Triplicity and Term and it seems to me that the Moon in this case has more dignity than either Mars or Jupiter and therefore Moon is the Alcoccoden

So Sun is Hyleg and Moon is the Alcoccoden, according to Bonatti :smile:

paraskeyh
09-28-2011, 11:52 PM
If you mean that you think that the Moon could be the Hyleg, well it could be, but only if Sun does not fulfil conditions for Hyleg but in this case the Sun has been established as Hyleg.

Currently then, since Saturn is eliminated by Bonatti (if not Ptolemy) then we check any planets in aspect to the Hyleg (in this case the Sun) to establish which of these could be Alcoccoden.

Jupiter and Mars are conjunct in Scorpio and of the two Mars has the greater dignity (Jupiter has no dignity at all in Scorpio) whereas Mars is domicile, Triplicity, Term ruler, so Mars could be Alcoccoden

Now to check the Moon.
Moon is in Taurus in own Domicile, Exaltation, Triplicity and Term and it seems to me that the Moon in this case has more dignity than either Mars or Jupiter and therefore Moon is the Alcoccoden

So Sun is Hyleg and Moon is the Alcoccoden, according to Bonatti :smile:

Jup i am a little bit confused here,sure moon is very strong, but according to Bonnati the Alcoccoden must be in aspect with the Hyleg and to has the greatest dignity in Hylegs place and moon does not fulfil that.

JUPITERASC
09-29-2011, 08:09 AM
Jup i am a little bit confused here,sure moon is very strong, but according to Bonnati the Alcoccoden must be in aspect with the Hyleg and to has the greatest dignity in Hylegs place and moon does not fulfil that.

As you say, Moon has no dignity in degree of Hyleg
so the search for Alcoccoden according to Bonatti continues
next step is to find out whether Jupiter or Mars have any dignity in the Hylegs place. If so, then either one is Alcoccoden :smile:

paraskeyh
09-29-2011, 11:53 AM
As you say, Moon has no dignity in degree of Hyleg
so the search for Alcoccoden according to Bonatti continues
next step is to find out whether Jupiter or Mars have any dignity in the Hylegs place. If so, then either one is Alcoccoden :smile:

We still continue with the sun as Hyleg arent we?I see Jupiter has face in Hylegs place but doesnt make any aspect with sun.Actually according to Bonatti's method the sun cannot be the Hyleg at all, cause we must use only the four dignities(rule,exalt,tripl and term)and no planet has dignity in the sun area except Venus.BUT Venus cannot be the Alcoccoden because it doesnt make any aspect with the Sun.In other words i think we must look the next one the moon,what do you think?

JUPITERASC
09-29-2011, 12:17 PM
We still continue with the sun as Hyleg arent we?I see Jupiter has face in Hylegs place but doesnt make any aspect with sun.Actually according to Bonatti's method the sun cannot be the Hyleg at all, cause we must use only the four dignities(rule,exalt,tripl and term)and no planet has dignity in the sun area except Venus.BUT Venus cannot be the Alcoccoden because it doesnt make any aspect with the Sun.In other words i think we must look the next one the moon,what do you think?

I agree paraskeyh - and if Sun is eliminated then we consider Moon as Hyleg... if moon does not qualify, then we consider Ascendant and/or PoF (Part of Fortune) what is the degree and Sign of your PoF? :smile:

DreamingTheSeas
09-29-2011, 01:45 PM
When we have calculated the Hyleg as an Arabic Part, and the Hyleg is in Virgo and 5th house along with Saturn and part of Fortune what conclusions we can get?

paraskeyh
09-29-2011, 07:51 PM
I agree paraskeyh - and if Sun is eliminated then we consider Moon as Hyleg... if moon does not qualify, then we consider Ascendant and/or PoF (Part of Fortune) what is the degree and Sign of your PoF? :smile:
26 35' of Cancer

paraskeyh
09-29-2011, 08:39 PM
Αccording to Bonatti only Part of Fortune can be the Hyleg.After we have cleared with moon we go to the POF and the reason for that is that the chart is Preventional.Now POF makes 2 aspects :a conjuction with Venus and a square with Jupiter.I look at dignities and i see Jupiter has the greater dignity.Jupiter is in exaltion and Venus scores less from Jupiter because is in term. So to sum up according to Bonatti Sun and Moon fails and Part of Fortune is the Hyleg with Jupiter as Alcoccoden.

paraskeyh
09-29-2011, 09:37 PM
I continue with my thoughts..If Jupiter is the Alcoccoden (wich probably is) then which years we take?Jupiter is in Scorpio in 12th house but as we said before a planet within about 8 degrees of an angular house cosidered to be angular.So jupiter has power but i dont know wich years to take,i am between middle and Greater.

paraskeyh
09-29-2011, 09:55 PM
I continue with my thoughts..If Jupiter is the Alcoccoden (wich probably is) then which years we take?Jupiter is in Scorpio in 12th house but as we said before a planet within about 8 degrees of an angular house cosidered to be angular.So jupiter has power but i dont know wich years to take,i am between middle and Greater.

Αlso jupiter is in aspect with Mars in Scorpio(conjuction),square with Venus In Cancer(in 9th),oposition with a strong moon in Taurus and is in sextile with a very strong Mercury in Virgo (in 10th).So we have work to do.:happy:

paraskeyh
09-30-2011, 11:02 AM
Αlso jupiter is in aspect with Mars in Scorpio(conjuction),square with Venus In Cancer(in 9th),oposition with a strong moon in Taurus and is in sextile with a very strong Mercury in Virgo (in 10th).So we have work to do.:happy:

Am i in the right way?

JUPITERASC
09-30-2011, 10:20 PM
Αlso jupiter is in aspect with Mars in Scorpio(conjuction),square with Venus In Cancer(in 9th),oposition with a strong moon in Taurus and is in sextile with a very strong Mercury in Virgo (in 10th).So we have work to do.:happy:
Am i in the right way?

I agree with your analysis paraskyeyh. PoF is Hyleg. Mars, Venus & Jupiter aspect Hyleg - Jupiter has greater dignity at degree of Hyleg so Jupiter is Alcoccoden.

Now it is a matter of addition and subtraction according to the method given.

Benefics in Trine, Conjunction or Sextile add years to the life, whereas Malefics in Conjunction, Square or opposition take years away from the life.

So we add years for Venus because Cancer Venus and Scorpio Jupiter both Trine Pisces PoF (we do not consider Moon because Moon opposes Jupiter)

Mars Conjuncts Jupiter so we deduct appropriate years :smile:

paraskeyh
09-30-2011, 11:08 PM
Jup we examine the first chart not the second.The Pof is in cancer not in Pisces. First, wich years you think i should add for Jupiter Middle or Greater?

JUPITERASC
09-30-2011, 11:15 PM
Jup we examine the first chart not the second.The Pof is in cancer not in Pisces. First, wich years you think i should add for Jupiter Middle or Greater?
26 35' of Cancer
You did say that! :smile:

Jupiter has no dignity in Scorpio

paraskeyh
09-30-2011, 11:21 PM
Jup we examine the first chart not the second.The Pof is in cancer not in Pisces. First, wich years you think i should add for Jupiter Middle or Greater?

Αlso jupiter is in aspect with Mars in Scorpio(conjuction) Because Mars is malefic we subtract the Lesser(15 years and 40,5 in months),square with Venus In Cancer(in 9th):now here you said we add cause Venus in Cancer and a benefic but in square so we add for sure or not?I havent read what we do in this situation when a malefic is in hard aspect we add or no?,oposition with a strong moon in Taurus (we add or not) and is in sextile with a very strong Mercury in Virgo (in 10th)(here we add but the Lesser or the Middle years because the Mercury is Very strong.
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/images/futura/misc/progress.gif

JUPITERASC
09-30-2011, 11:36 PM
Αlso jupiter is in aspect with Mars in Scorpio(conjuction) Because Mars is malefic we subtract the Lesser(15 years and 40,5 in months),square with Venus In Cancer(in 9th):now here you said we add cause Venus in Cancer and a benefic but in square so we add for sure or not?I havent read what we do in this situation when a malefic is in hard aspect we add or no?,oposition with a strong moon in Taurus (we add or not) and is in sextile with a very strong Mercury in Virgo (in 10th)(here we add but the Lesser or the Middle years because the Mercury is Very strong.

paraskeyh I agree subtractions regarding Mars

however remember that the Sign Scorpio always Trines the Sign Cancer so that is why we add the years of Venus (a benefic in trine to Alcoccoden)

We cannot add years of Taurus Moon because in this case the benefic moon opposes Alcoccoden.

Benefics that are Conjunct, Sextile, or Trine we add years

Malefics that are Conjunct, Square or Opposition we deduct years

Mercury is not specifically considered a benefic - the benefics are Jupiter and Venus http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/benefics.html
Sun and Moon are traditionally considered benefic

Malefics are Jupiter and Saturn http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/malefics.html

Mercury varies, depending on condition:smile:

paraskeyh
10-01-2011, 12:07 AM
paraskeyh I agree subtractions regarding Mars

however remember that the Sign Scorpio always Trines the Sign Cancer so that is why we add the years of Venus (a benefic in trine to Alcoccoden)

We cannot add years of Taurus Moon because in this case the benefic moon opposes Alcoccoden.

Benefics that are Conjunct, Sextile, or Trine we add years

Malefics that are Conjunct, Square or Opposition we deduct years

Mercury is not specifically considered a benefic - the benefics are Jupiter and Venus http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/benefics.html
Sun and Moon are traditionally considered benefic

Malefics are Jupiter and Saturn http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/malefics.html

Mercury varies, depending on condition:smile:

So we take the middle years of Jupiter(45.5)-we subtract (15+40.5=18 years and 4 and a half months-we add venus lesser(8 and 48 months=12 years-about moon do you think we should subtract too or no?And finally Mercury a strong sextile so here what do you think ,should we add?

JUPITERASC
10-01-2011, 12:24 AM
So we take the middle years of Jupiter(45.5)-we subtract (15+40.5=18 years and 4 and a half months-we add venus lesser(8 and 48 months=12 years-about moon do you think we should subtract too or no?And finally Mercury a strong sextile so here what do you think ,should we add?
Jupiter has no dignity in Scorpio and so is Peregrine, however BobZemco has previously stated on another thread at this link http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8767&highlight=alcoccoden
You can use the Hyleg/Alcoccoden method. There are different methods of calculating the Hyleg (Ptolemy, Bonatti, al-Biruni et al). I recommend using a program as its quite complex (and the old fashioned terminology grates on my nerves).

Generally, if there is a Hyleg, it'll end up being the Sun, Moon, PoF, or ASC. Assuming there is a Hyleg (if not the native's life will be short), you find the Alcoccoden, the planet the makes the first applying Ptolemic aspect that's has the highest dignity.

Based on that, you consult a table of The Years of the Planets and take the years determined by whether the planet is cadent, succedent or angular and use that as your base-line. If Mars was the Alcoccoden and angular, you'd have a base-line of 66 years.

From there, you either add or subtract years (and months) to your base-line depending on which planets aspect the Alcoccoden, and whether the aspects or hard or easy and whether the planet is a malefic or benefic.

From what I've seen, it's quite accurate, being off by only a few years. In a couple of cases where it was off badly, adjusting the birth time by a few minutes yielded the correct number of years, which suggests the birth time was inaccurate.

So if we take note BobZemco's good advice, Jupiter is angular in 1st house, so for Jupiter we can take the Greater years - 79 years :smile:

paraskeyh
10-01-2011, 12:39 AM
So if we take note BobZemco's good advice, Jupiter is angular in 1st house, so for Jupiter we can take the Greater years - 79 years :smile:
Jupiter is conjucting ascedant 5 degrees so it is considered to be angular you are right.If jupiter conjucts with first house with 10 degrees counts to be angular or not?

paraskeyh
10-01-2011, 12:49 AM
So if we take note BobZemco's good advice, Jupiter is angular in 1st house, so for Jupiter we can take the Greater years - 79 years :smile:
Jupiter is conjucting ascedant 5 degrees so it is considered to be angular you are right.If jupiter conjucts with first house with 10 degrees counts to be angular or not?

I am wondering what we must do (hypotheticaly) if a malefic like Mars sextiles an Alcoccoden,i mean a malefic but in good angle with Alcoccoden then we add,we subtract or we do not do anything at all.And about the moon and the mercury because you said that they are neutral we dont use them at all?

JUPITERASC
10-01-2011, 12:50 AM
So if we take note BobZemco's good advice, Jupiter is angular in 1st house, so for Jupiter we can take the Greater years - 79 years :smile: Jupiter is conjucting ascedant 5 degrees so it is considered to be angular you are right.If jupiter conjucts with first house with 10 degrees counts to be angular or not?
According to the notes prepared by Bernadette Brady using Alcabitius houses a planet within 6 degrees of the Ascendant is counted as being angular - 10 degrees is not considered angular.

Remember BobZemco advises us that the method is complex and therefore the use of a program is best... also it is important to have an accurate time of birth
Remember also that the time on a wrist watch or clock on a wall is different from the actual time in relation to the Sun. Consider this... when looking at a sundial situated in a garden we notice considerable differences if we compare the sundial to watches and/or clocks. This particular birth occurred on 11th August and for that day the Equation of Time states that a sundial shows the sun is slower by 5.2 minutes than a watch and/or clock - interesting to experiment and to deduct five minutes from your birthtime:smile:

paraskeyh
10-01-2011, 12:59 AM
According to the notes prepared by Bernadette Brady using Alcabitius houses a planet within 6 degrees of the Ascendant is counted as being angular - 10 degrees is not considered angular.

Remember BobZemco advises us that the method is complex and therefore the use of a program is best... also it is important to have an accurate time of birth :smile:

Ok:joyful: i have my certificate of Birth so its ok only thing i dont know if a deviation from 2 to 5 minutes is acceptable .

JUPITERASC
10-01-2011, 01:04 AM
I am wondering what we must do (hypotheticaly) if a malefic like Mars sextiles an Alcoccoden,i mean a malefic but in good angle with Alcoccoden then we add,we subtract or we do not do anything at all.And about the moon and the mercury because you said that they are neutral we dont use them at all?
When malefic Mars sextiles an Alcoccoden then we do nothing because to have any effect regarding deduction of years, malefics must conjunct, oppose or square
Benefits to have any effect likewise on addition of years must conjunct, sextile or trine
Bernadette Brady has used Moon as a benefic to add years for Charlie Chaplin's chart but has given no example using Mercury as a benefic so in this case, since we use this particular method because there is no example. then we cannot say :smile:

paraskeyh
10-01-2011, 01:05 AM
According to the notes prepared by Bernadette Brady using Alcabitius houses a planet within 6 degrees of the Ascendant is counted as being angular - 10 degrees is not considered angular.

Remember BobZemco advises us that the method is complex and therefore the use of a program is best... also it is important to have an accurate time of birth
Remember also that the time on a wrist watch or clock on a wall is different from the actual time in relation to the Sun. Consider this... when looking at a sundial situated in a garden we notice considerable differences if we compare the sundial to watches and/or clocks. This particular birth occurred on 11th August and for that day the Equation of Time states that a sundial shows the sun is slower by 5.2 minutes than a watch and/or clock - interesting to experiment and to deduct five minutes from your birthtime:smile:

Wow i didnt know this!I just checked my chart but there is no big diference so i think we are ok.

JUPITERASC
10-01-2011, 01:09 AM
Ok:joyful: i have my certificate of Birth so its ok only thing i dont know if a deviation from 2 to 5 minutes is acceptable .

Also it is obvious that the birthtime is written some time after the birth since the child must be attended to and the mother must be attended to, so sometimes there is considerable variation from the actual time of birth. There is much debate as to what is considered the time of birth, mostly astrologers think that the time of the first breath is the time of birth. Often the first breath occurs long before the birth is noted. The midwife and/or doctors are not holding a pen or seated at a computer ready to write the exact time of birth! Often it is an estimate although it seems exact because the minutes are noted - but that is the time it is written

a deviation of five minutes taking the Equation of Time into account makes a difference of approximately one degree:smile:

paraskeyh
10-01-2011, 01:11 AM
When malefic Mars sextiles an Alcoccoden then we do nothing because to have any effect regarding deduction of years, malefics must conjunct, oppose or square
Benefits to have any effect likewise on addition of years must conjunct, sextile or trine
Bernadette Brady has used Moon as a benefic to add years for Charlie Chaplin's chart but has given no example using Mercury as a benefic so in this case, since we use this particular method because there is no example. then we cannot say :smile:

You are right about the moon .Also from what you said we cannot count the moon at all because even moon is benefic it oposes the Alcoccoden so dont count the moon at all:smile:

JUPITERASC
10-01-2011, 01:14 AM
You are right about the moon .Also from what you said we cannot count the moon at all because even moon is benefic it oposes the Alcoccoden so dont count the moon at all:smile:
Exactly. We do not count the moon at all :smile:

paraskeyh
10-01-2011, 01:20 AM
Often the first breath occurs long before the birth is noted. The midwife and/or doctors are not holding a pen or seated at a computer ready to write the exact time of birth!

i couldn't agree more with this.Nowadays they note the birth with more accuracy than the did back in 1982 and not to mention my dad and my mum, we dont the hour at all:lol:

paraskeyh
10-01-2011, 01:29 AM
Ok i changed to 13:20 but its still the same results about aspects and angles only the degrees have changed but this doesnt affect neither Hyleg nor Alcoccoden:smile: so we are accurate

paraskeyh
10-01-2011, 01:33 AM
Have you got a clue what to do with mercury?

paraskeyh
10-01-2011, 01:46 AM
And to be honest, i read the posts of Bob Zemco about longetivity and with not having second thought i joined in this beatiful community of yours,Zemco is an astrologer ?I ask this because i am new here and i dont know each everyone:smile:

paraskeyh
10-01-2011, 02:02 AM
To sum up ,we take the greater years of Jupiter(79)-we subtract Mars(15+40.5=18 years and 4 and a half months-we add venus lesser(8 and 48 months=12 years So the years are 73. And the deviation is 2 to 3 years approximately?-no Moon in use and Mercury is a question for us

JUPITERASC
10-01-2011, 08:06 PM
And to be honest, i read the posts of Bob Zemco about longetivity and with not having second thought i joined in this beatiful community of yours,Zemco is an astrologer ?I ask this because i am new here and i dont know each everyone:smile:
BobZemco is a more than competent Traditional horary astrologer, active on any one of the horary forums.
To sum up ,we take the greater years of Jupiter(79)-we subtract Mars(15+40.5=18 years and 4 and a half months-we add venus lesser(8 and 48 months=12 years So the years are 73. And the deviation is 2 to 3 years approximately?-no Moon in use and Mercury is a question for us
I would agree with you, that so far as Bernadette Brady has shown us, then the years according to Bonatti are 73
Regarding Mercury, for Hellenistic astrologers Mercury is sometimes, benefic, sometimes malefic depending upon condition.

Curtis Manwaring of the Lost Horoscope X-Files has this to say:

Finding the hyleg is tricky and depends upon whose definitions you rely upon (research is needed in this area) ...locate the "light of the time" (by day, the Sun and by night, the Moon) to see what house it is in.... Once the hyleg and alchochoden are determined with relative certainty, finding the lifespan is a matter of directing the rays of the hyleg (usually by primary direction or ascensional times) to the rays of a destroyer or malefic planet. Under modern sentiments about death and old age one should not predict death but rather danger of death or illness. It was common practice of astrologers in the past to not predict death unless all of the indicators were thoroughly bad and there were no benefic planets also aspecting or somehow mitigating at the time.

source http://www.astrology-x-files.com/x-files/hyleg.html :smile:

paraskeyh
10-01-2011, 11:00 PM
BobZemco is a more than competent Traditional horary astrologer, active on any one of the horary forums.

I would agree with you, that so far as Bernadette Brady has shown us, then the years according to Bonatti are 73
Regarding Mercury, for Hellenistic astrologers Mercury is sometimes, benefic, sometimes malefic depending upon condition.

Curtis Manwaring of the Lost Horoscope X-Files has this to say:

Finding the hyleg is tricky and depends upon whose definitions you rely upon (research is needed in this area) ...locate the "light of the time" (by day, the Sun and by night, the Moon) to see what house it is in.... Once the hyleg and alchochoden are determined with relative certainty, finding the lifespan is a matter of directing the rays of the hyleg (usually by primary direction or ascensional times) to the rays of a destroyer or malefic planet. Under modern sentiments about death and old age one should not predict death but rather danger of death or illness. It was common practice of astrologers in the past to not predict death unless all of the indicators were thoroughly bad and there were no benefic planets also aspecting or somehow mitigating at the time.

source http://www.astrology-x-files.com/x-files/hyleg.html :smile:

The alchochoden if afflicting the hyleg in some way for example could show the cause of illness.

So in my case Jupiter shows the cause of illness or death(jupiter in scorpio maybe a tumor in genitals)

If the hyleg and alchochoden are the same then the chances are that the planet is dignified, and the nativity blessed.

What he means by this?

paraskeyh
10-01-2011, 11:10 PM
What do you think about the second chart?I think Hyleg is the Ascedant and Alcoccoden is Venus do you agree?:smile:

JUPITERASC
10-02-2011, 01:45 AM
If the hyleg and alchochoden are the same then the chances are that the planet is dignified, and the nativity blessed. What he means by this?
Well I am no expert but Curtis Manwaring could mean that if the planet with the greatest dignity at the degree of the Hyleg is also the Hyleg - then it follows that obviously then, the Hyleg is also the Alcoccoden! However, as has been said before, there are many opinions as to how to calculate the Hyleg and we are following that of Bernadette Brady who does not mention this particular phenomenon that Curtis Manwaring has drawn our attention to.

Curtis Manwaring says: "It is my conjecture that the form/matter relationship between the hyleg and alchochoden might be useful in other ways than just determining the lifespan and the timing of a possible illness. The relationship between these two planets (or one) could show how sickly or robust the health is in a more general sense. The alchochoden if afflicting the hyleg in some way for example could show the cause of illness."

Curtis Manwaring also says "If the hyleg and alchochoden are the same then the chances are that the planet is dignified, and the nativity blessed. If there is a beneficial relationship between the two this might help the robustness of the natives health, etc.; all for research to determine.... " :smile:

paraskeyh
10-02-2011, 02:06 AM
Well I am no expert but Curtis Manwaring could mean that if the planet with the greatest dignity at the degree of the Hyleg is also the Hyleg - then it follows that obviously then, the Hyleg is also the Alcoccoden! However, as has been said before, there are many opinions as to how to calculate the Hyleg and we are following that of Bernadette Brady who does not mention this particular phenomenon that Curtis Manwaring has drawn our attention to.

Curtis Manwaring says: "It is my conjecture that the form/matter relationship between the hyleg and alchochoden might be useful in other ways than just determining the lifespan and the timing of a possible illness. The relationship between these two planets (or one) could show how sickly or robust the health is in a more general sense. The alchochoden if afflicting the hyleg in some way for example could show the cause of illness."

Curtis Manwaring also says "If the hyleg and alchochoden are the same then the chances are that the planet is dignified, and the nativity blessed. If there is a beneficial relationship between the two this might help the robustness of the natives health, etc.; all for research to determine.... " :smile:

According to Curtis my Sun is the Hyleg and the Alcoccoden too,so Saturn sextiles my sun wich is Malefic.So we have 120 (of sun)-33 and something(saturn)=87 something:w00t:Imagine that.

JUPITERASC
10-02-2011, 03:16 AM
your conclusion seems premature paraskeyh... Remember - you asked
If the hyleg and alchochoden are the same then the chances are that the planet is dignified, and the nativity blessed. What he means by this?

to which I responded
Well I am no expert but Curtis Manwaring could mean that if the planet with the greatest dignity at the degree of the Hyleg is also the Hyleg - then it follows that obviously then, the Hyleg is also the Alcoccoden! :smile:
However, remember I am not Curtis Manwaring and cannot possibly say whether my interpretation of what Curtis Manwaring said is correct. Neither can you or anyone assume that my conjecture is correct... only Curtis Manwaring can tell us what he means when he writes "if the planet with the greatest dignity at the degree of the Hyleg is also the Hyleg"
therefore when you have written
According to Curtis my Sun is the Hyleg and the Alcoccoden too,so Saturn sextiles my sun wich is Malefic.So we have 120 (of sun)-33 and something(saturn)=87 something:w00t:Imagine that.
I remind you that I prefaced my comments with the proviso that I am no expert which means my interpretation requires verification (in this case from Curtis Manwaring) we have not got that verification. Until we receive confirmation of my conjecture then I must remind you paraskeyh what Curtis Manwaring states is simply "If the hyleg and alchochoden are the same" - at no time has Curtis Manwaring told us how we decide whether the Hyleg and the Alcoccoden are the same... instead, Curtis Manwaring has simply said it is "all for research to determine.... "

Paraskeyh, it is interesting to experiment with these ancient techniques but already we have shown that
(a) Ptolemy thinks Saturn is Alcoccoden
(b) Bonatti opts for Jupiter as Alcoccoden
(c) and now we discover that Curtis Manwaring has stated "if the hyleg is also the Alcoccoden" without providing any illustration of how to arrive at the hyleg being also the Alcoccoden, so then we would be wise to agree with Bob Zemco who said the Hyleg and Alcoccoden is a complex process best arrived at with the use of astrological software so do not take our brief analysis as the "be-all and the end-all" because that would be too hasty on your part. These ancient/traditional astrological techniques, although interesting are far more complex than is readily apparent to those who have not studied them within the entire context of Traditional astrology. :smile:

paraskeyh
10-02-2011, 07:00 PM
your conclusion seems premature paraskeyh... Remember - you asked


to which I responded

However, remember I am not Curtis Manwaring and cannot possibly say whether my interpretation of what Curtis Manwaring said is correct. Neither can you or anyone assume that my conjecture is correct... only Curtis Manwaring can tell us what he means when he writes "if the planet with the greatest dignity at the degree of the Hyleg is also the Hyleg"
therefore when you have written

I remind you that I prefaced my comments with the proviso that I am no expert which means my interpretation requires verification (in this case from Curtis Manwaring) we have not got that verification. Until we receive confirmation of my conjecture then I must remind you paraskeyh what Curtis Manwaring states is simply "If the hyleg and alchochoden are the same" - at no time has Curtis Manwaring told us how we decide whether the Hyleg and the Alcoccoden are the same... instead, Curtis Manwaring has simply said it is "all for research to determine.... "

Paraskeyh, it is interesting to experiment with these ancient techniques but already we have shown that
(a) Ptolemy thinks Saturn is Alcoccoden
(b) Bonatti opts for Jupiter as Alcoccoden
(c) and now we discover that Curtis Manwaring has stated "if the hyleg is also the Alcoccoden" without providing any illustration of how to arrive at the hyleg being also the Alcoccoden, so then we would be wise to agree with Bob Zemco who said the Hyleg and Alcoccoden is a complex process best arrived at with the use of astrological software so do not take our brief analysis as the "be-all and the end-all" because that would be too hasty on your part. These ancient/traditional astrological techniques, although interesting are far more complex than is readily apparent to those who have not studied them within the entire context of Traditional astrology. :smile:

It is really very complex and it would be very good to examine natal charts of people who have passed away for exercise in Bonattis method

paraskeyh
10-02-2011, 07:23 PM
What do you think about the second chart?I think Hyleg is the Ascedant and Alcoccoden is Venus do you agree?:smile:
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/images/futura/misc/progress.gif

JUPITERASC
10-30-2011, 07:08 PM
Paraskeyh since the subject is of interest to you :smile:

Vettius Valens on page 58 of The Anthologies of Vettius Valens of Antioch: Book III details what he refers to as "The Control" and he says:

[QUOTE]
1. The Control. Various astrologers have handed down various teachings about the basis of the nativity’s length of life. Since this topic seems quite complicated and complex, we will clarify it using methods proven by our own experience. The first topics of discussion will be “control,” “projection of rays,” and “houserulership.” First let the control with respect to the sun and the moon be investigated. [END QUOTE]
http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/Vettius%20Valens%20entire.pdf

The books the astrologer Valens wrote are composed of techniques Valens obtained from even more ancient sources. Valens motive was simply to record ancient astrological techniques for the benefit of future generations of astrologers to study. Valens did not disturb the techniques even if he disagreed with them: he just said he disagreed, showed his own ideas but also described the original techniques without altering them. :smile:

Historical Note
Vettius Valens (February 8, 120 – c. 175) was a 2nd-century Hellenistic astrologer, a somewhat younger contemporary of Claudius Ptolemy.

Valens' major work is the Anthology, ten volumes in Greek written roughly within the period 150 to 175. The Anthology is the longest and most detailed treatise on astrology which has survived from that period. A working professional astrologer, Valens includes over a hundred sample charts from his case files in the Anthology.

Although originally a native of Antioch, he appears to have travelled widely in Egypt in search of specific astrological doctrines to bolster his practice. At the time Alexandria was still home to a number of astrologers of the older Babylonian, Greek and Egyptian traditions. He published much of what he learned from the tradition and through his practice in his Anthology, written in an engaging and instructional style. The Anthology is thus of great value in piecing together actual working techniques of the time.

Valens' work is also important because he cites the views of a number of earlier authors and authorities who would otherwise be unknown. The fragments from works attributed to the alleged pharaoh Nechepso and the high priest Petosiris, pseudobiographical authors of the 2nd century BC, survive mainly through direct quotations in Valens' work.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vettius_Valens

paraskeyh
10-31-2011, 08:58 PM
It seems very interesting and very difficult for me .I had some problems and i didnt have time to connect.But i really need your opinion for the second chart with Bonattis method.I studied 3 charts from people who died with this method and it was accurate and 2 other with +- 3-8 years.

JUPITERASC
12-03-2011, 08:32 PM
It seems very interesting and very difficult for me .I had some problems and i didnt have time to connect.But i really need your opinion for the second chart with Bonattis method.I studied 3 charts from people who died with this method and it was accurate and 2 other with +- 3-8 years.

Since BobZemco seems absent pro tem, then the next best action is to make use of his past posts on this very subject of the Hyleg in relation to astrological death forecasting:smile:

05-19-2011, 04:10 AM
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Re: William Lilly's indications of a violent death.Do they work?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost_spirit http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/images/futura/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=286453#post286453)
According to some astrological books I've read,and I think Ptolemy is included,"a violent or remarkable death happens when both the malefics attack the luminaries,or one of them" etc. which I find to be inaccurate.

That's probably because Ptolemy is discussing Primary Directions, not the planetary situation in a Natal Chart. If you're researching Death (and it appears you are), then you've probably ran into comments on the Hyleg and Alcocoden.

Ptolemy doesn't use an Alcocoden. Ptolemy's theory is that what is Above Horizon is alive, what is Below Horizon is dead. When looking at the Houses Above Horizon, all of them make aspects to the Ascendant except the 12th and 8th Houses, which are inconjunct the Ascendant.

For Day Chart, where the Sun is Above Horizon, Ptolemy wants to find the Planet that has the most Dignity in the Sun, the pre-Natal New Moon, and the Ascendant. For each of those points, he is looking for a Planet that meets 3 of these 5 conditions: is the Sign Ruler, Exaltation Ruler, Sect Triplicity Ruler, Term Ruler or makes a partile or very close applying aspect to the point in question.

So, if the pre-Natal New Moon was at 6° Virgo, the Mercury is the Sign Ruler, Exaltation Ruler and Term Ruler, which is at least 3 dignities, and Mercury is a potential Hyleg candidate, assuming Mercury is in the 1st, 11th, 10th, 9th or 7th House of the chart.

If the Ascendant was at 22° Gemini, then Saturn is the Sect Triplicity Ruler and the Term Ruler, and suppose Saturn was at 21° Pisces in the 10th House in square to the Ascending Degree, so that is 3 dignities and Saturn is a potential Hyleg candidate.

It's actually very rare to find a Planet with at least 3 dignities in the Sun, Ascendant or pre-Natal New Moon.

The Houses in order of power are the 10th, 1st, 11th, 7th and 9th. He will take the best one out of the Sun, Moon and any Planet that has at least 3 dignities in either the Sun, pre-Natal New Moon or the Ascendant and determine which is the Hyleg.

If the Sun is in the 8th or 12th House, and the Moon is Below Horizon and no Planet meets the dignity conditions, then the Ascendant is automatically the Hyleg (and a Planet Combust cannot be Hyleg either).

For a Night Chart (Sun Below Horizon), Ptolemy is looking for the Planet that has at least 3 dignities in either the Moon, the pre-Natal Full Moon, or the Lot of Fortune, and again you're looking at the Sign Ruler, Exaltation Ruler, Sect Triplicity Ruler, Term Ruler or a very close applying or partile aspect to one of those 3 points.

If you can't find a Planet, and Moon is in the 8th or 12th House, then the Lot of Fortune is automatically the Hyleg.

Once he finds the Hyleg, then he directs it by Primary Direction. If the Hyleg is in the 7th or 9th House, then he directs it clock-wise to the Descendant (7th House Cusp) and the Arc of Direction (the number of degrees) is how long the Native will live.

That isn't just counting the number of degrees between the Hyleg and the 7th House Cusp, rather you're looking at Temporal Hours to arrive at the 7th House Cusp.

If it's 68°, then the Native lives 68 years. That's modified by the rays of the Benefics and Malefics who come to the Descendant by aspect through Primary Direction. The Benefics add years, the Malefics take away years.

Saturn and Mars (unless one of them happens to be Hyleg) you direct clockwise to the first square, opposition or conjunction of the Descendant, the Benefics (Venus and Jupiter unless one of them is the actually the Hyleg) you direct clock-wise to the first conjunciton, sextile or trine to the Descendant. Again, you're using Temporal Hours not actual degrees, and you add or subtract their Arcs of Direction to the Hyleg's Arc of Direction and that will tell you when the Native dies (and it will be dead on or less than 30 days -- usually within 4 days).

If the Hyleg is not in the 7th or 9th House, you direct it counter clock-wise, and here's where it can be attack by the rays of the Malefics or you can also direct the Malefics to the Hyleg.

The other times, and this is general and not very specific as the Hyleg, is when the Sign Ruler in a Profectional Chart is in very bad condition and in the Solar Return Chart the same Planet is Cadent, or worse yet in the 12th House, and then totally savaged by Mars and Saturn or Combust or where the Sun is Malefic (in square or opposition and not received by the Planet Sun is squaring or opposing), and then Mercury in square or opposition and not received is Malefic as well. That's an indicator of death, but it won't give the the time like Primary Directions will.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost_spirit http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/images/futura/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=286453#post286453)
Also,some texts give emphasis on the planets in the 8th house for the cause of death,But I found many empty 8th houses in violent deaths and in some cases Jupiter or Venus posited in there(or both).And that's what I mean "adopted by many people".

I never paid much attention to that, and again the Sign is important. Being in the 8th House and being in the 8th Sign aren't always the same thing. I have Venus in Cancer in the 8th House, but Cancer is actually the 9th Sign, not the 8th Sign. By Sign (and by Whole Sign Houses) have Mercury and Sun in Gemini in the 8th House.

Also, you have to look at the Sign on the Ascendant . If it's Aries, then Scorpio rules the 8th or is the 8th Sign and if Mars is there, well, it's the same story with Venus and Jupiter when Libra is rising (making Taurus the 8th Sign) or Sagittarius is rising (making Pisces the 8th Sign).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost_spirit http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/images/futura/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=286453#post286453)
Now,I'm not sure what you mean about human signs involved in accidents.You're refferring to which placement in these signs?The houses involved,the triplicity ruler's placement,the malefics,what?I like to test what I learn,but I'm not sure what to test here.I have a few accidents in the charts I studied and Lilly's rules apply to them as well.

Yes.

No, I use the Lot of Death, Ruler Lot of Death, Sect Triplicity Ruler 4th House and the 8th House Ruler and then string them together to tell a story. You can look at this chart.

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=19048&stc=1&d=1305771655

This is a Night Chart, so Sun cannot be Hyleg. There are no Planets that have the required Dignity in the Moon, pre-Natal Full Moon (28° Cancer) or the Lot of Fortune. The Moon is in the 8th House and cannot be Hyleg, so it automatically falls to the Lot of Fortune, who isn't exactly up to the task.

Because the Hyleg (the Lot of Fortune) is in the 2nd Quardrant (Occidental -- the 7th, 8th and 9th Houses), we direct it to the Descendant.

Just eyeballing the chart, he's not going to live very long, because the Lot of Fortune is going to move very quickly to the Descendant. That's most unfortunate, because he was a great man, but his chart his problematic. He has Antares rising with the Ascendant, but that puts Aldebaran conjunct the Descendant, Moon conjunct Pollux, and Mars conjunct Arcturus (and those conjunctions are 10'-20' of arc).

Lot of Death is at 16° Scorpio. Scorpio is poisons of all kinds, including poison from burning plastics and wiring in the command module where he died (he and others died of smoke inhalation). Ruler Lot of Death is Mars (who is also the 4th House Sect Triplicity Ruler) in Libra, a Human and Violent Sign. Human negligence was involved here, and I suppose some would split hairs over whether or not death was violent, and personally I only see one Human Violent or Violent Sign involved here so I would characterize that as a sudden/frantic death rather than physically violent, and more of an accidental nature.

Many of the Persians would look at Saturn, which happens to be in Pisces and is an indicator of drowning or suffocation (as is Moon in Cancer especially with Moon debilitated by the South Node).

Getting back to life span, without doing all the freaking math, I just want you to how the rays of the Benefics and Malefics intervene. This isn't the actual math, but I just want you to get the gist of the idea.

So you direct the Lot of Fortune to the Descendant, and it's 34° away (again this isn't the actual math I'm using this for illustrative purposes) so that would be 34 years.

Jupiter (moving clock-wise) comes to trine the Descendant at 8° Libra and that's 44 years you would add to the life span. Then Venus (going clock-wise) comes to the trine of the Descendant at 8° Aquarius so you'd add 38 years. Now you subtract the Malefics. Mars comes to the square of the Descendant at 8° Virgo so that's minus 35 years and then Saturn comes to the opposition of the Descendant at 8° Sagittarius so that's minus 82 years and that would be the life span.

Again, you're actually using the Arcs of Direction not the actual degrees.

Looking at the chart, it really wouldn't matter if he was born an hour later or an hour or two earlier, he just didn't have that long to live, it just wasn't part of the plan.
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__________________
Four Modern Astrologers said Serial Killer John Wayne Gacy: "…can be very good with kids..." "...just your presence would be beneficial to other people..." "...a fairly well-rounded personality...you can offer a good role model..." "You have an instinctive awareness and your uninhibited response to life can refresh and gladden whomever you encounter."

Traditional Astrology Says: "...shows a strange mind and very wicked."

Gacy received 12 Death and 21 Life sentences for the murder of 33 boys.
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/images/futura/buttons/quote.gif (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=286564)

paraskeyh
12-06-2011, 07:32 PM
Since BobZemco seems absent pro tem, then the next best action is to make use of his past posts on this very subject of the Hyleg in relation to astrological death forecasting:smile:

05-19-2011, 04:10 AM
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Re: William Lilly's indications of a violent death.Do they work?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost_spirit http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/images/futura/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=286453#post286453)
According to some astrological books I've read,and I think Ptolemy is included,"a violent or remarkable death happens when both the malefics attack the luminaries,or one of them" etc. which I find to be inaccurate.

That's probably because Ptolemy is discussing Primary Directions, not the planetary situation in a Natal Chart. If you're researching Death (and it appears you are), then you've probably ran into comments on the Hyleg and Alcocoden.

Ptolemy doesn't use an Alcocoden. Ptolemy's theory is that what is Above Horizon is alive, what is Below Horizon is dead. When looking at the Houses Above Horizon, all of them make aspects to the Ascendant except the 12th and 8th Houses, which are inconjunct the Ascendant.

For Day Chart, where the Sun is Above Horizon, Ptolemy wants to find the Planet that has the most Dignity in the Sun, the pre-Natal New Moon, and the Ascendant. For each of those points, he is looking for a Planet that meets 3 of these 5 conditions: is the Sign Ruler, Exaltation Ruler, Sect Triplicity Ruler, Term Ruler or makes a partile or very close applying aspect to the point in question.

So, if the pre-Natal New Moon was at 6° Virgo, the Mercury is the Sign Ruler, Exaltation Ruler and Term Ruler, which is at least 3 dignities, and Mercury is a potential Hyleg candidate, assuming Mercury is in the 1st, 11th, 10th, 9th or 7th House of the chart.

If the Ascendant was at 22° Gemini, then Saturn is the Sect Triplicity Ruler and the Term Ruler, and suppose Saturn was at 21° Pisces in the 10th House in square to the Ascending Degree, so that is 3 dignities and Saturn is a potential Hyleg candidate.

It's actually very rare to find a Planet with at least 3 dignities in the Sun, Ascendant or pre-Natal New Moon.

The Houses in order of power are the 10th, 1st, 11th, 7th and 9th. He will take the best one out of the Sun, Moon and any Planet that has at least 3 dignities in either the Sun, pre-Natal New Moon or the Ascendant and determine which is the Hyleg.

If the Sun is in the 8th or 12th House, and the Moon is Below Horizon and no Planet meets the dignity conditions, then the Ascendant is automatically the Hyleg (and a Planet Combust cannot be Hyleg either).

For a Night Chart (Sun Below Horizon), Ptolemy is looking for the Planet that has at least 3 dignities in either the Moon, the pre-Natal Full Moon, or the Lot of Fortune, and again you're looking at the Sign Ruler, Exaltation Ruler, Sect Triplicity Ruler, Term Ruler or a very close applying or partile aspect to one of those 3 points.

If you can't find a Planet, and Moon is in the 8th or 12th House, then the Lot of Fortune is automatically the Hyleg.

Once he finds the Hyleg, then he directs it by Primary Direction. If the Hyleg is in the 7th or 9th House, then he directs it clock-wise to the Descendant (7th House Cusp) and the Arc of Direction (the number of degrees) is how long the Native will live.

That isn't just counting the number of degrees between the Hyleg and the 7th House Cusp, rather you're looking at Temporal Hours to arrive at the 7th House Cusp.

If it's 68°, then the Native lives 68 years. That's modified by the rays of the Benefics and Malefics who come to the Descendant by aspect through Primary Direction. The Benefics add years, the Malefics take away years.

Saturn and Mars (unless one of them happens to be Hyleg) you direct clockwise to the first square, opposition or conjunction of the Descendant, the Benefics (Venus and Jupiter unless one of them is the actually the Hyleg) you direct clock-wise to the first conjunciton, sextile or trine to the Descendant. Again, you're using Temporal Hours not actual degrees, and you add or subtract their Arcs of Direction to the Hyleg's Arc of Direction and that will tell you when the Native dies (and it will be dead on or less than 30 days -- usually within 4 days).

If the Hyleg is not in the 7th or 9th House, you direct it counter clock-wise, and here's where it can be attack by the rays of the Malefics or you can also direct the Malefics to the Hyleg.

The other times, and this is general and not very specific as the Hyleg, is when the Sign Ruler in a Profectional Chart is in very bad condition and in the Solar Return Chart the same Planet is Cadent, or worse yet in the 12th House, and then totally savaged by Mars and Saturn or Combust or where the Sun is Malefic (in square or opposition and not received by the Planet Sun is squaring or opposing), and then Mercury in square or opposition and not received is Malefic as well. That's an indicator of death, but it won't give the the time like Primary Directions will.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost_spirit http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/images/futura/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=286453#post286453)
Also,some texts give emphasis on the planets in the 8th house for the cause of death,But I found many empty 8th houses in violent deaths and in some cases Jupiter or Venus posited in there(or both).And that's what I mean "adopted by many people".

I never paid much attention to that, and again the Sign is important. Being in the 8th House and being in the 8th Sign aren't always the same thing. I have Venus in Cancer in the 8th House, but Cancer is actually the 9th Sign, not the 8th Sign. By Sign (and by Whole Sign Houses) have Mercury and Sun in Gemini in the 8th House.

Also, you have to look at the Sign on the Ascendant . If it's Aries, then Scorpio rules the 8th or is the 8th Sign and if Mars is there, well, it's the same story with Venus and Jupiter when Libra is rising (making Taurus the 8th Sign) or Sagittarius is rising (making Pisces the 8th Sign).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost_spirit http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/images/futura/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=286453#post286453)
Now,I'm not sure what you mean about human signs involved in accidents.You're refferring to which placement in these signs?The houses involved,the triplicity ruler's placement,the malefics,what?I like to test what I learn,but I'm not sure what to test here.I have a few accidents in the charts I studied and Lilly's rules apply to them as well.

Yes.

No, I use the Lot of Death, Ruler Lot of Death, Sect Triplicity Ruler 4th House and the 8th House Ruler and then string them together to tell a story. You can look at this chart.

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=19048&stc=1&d=1305771655

This is a Night Chart, so Sun cannot be Hyleg. There are no Planets that have the required Dignity in the Moon, pre-Natal Full Moon (28° Cancer) or the Lot of Fortune. The Moon is in the 8th House and cannot be Hyleg, so it automatically falls to the Lot of Fortune, who isn't exactly up to the task.

Because the Hyleg (the Lot of Fortune) is in the 2nd Quardrant (Occidental -- the 7th, 8th and 9th Houses), we direct it to the Descendant.

Just eyeballing the chart, he's not going to live very long, because the Lot of Fortune is going to move very quickly to the Descendant. That's most unfortunate, because he was a great man, but his chart his problematic. He has Antares rising with the Ascendant, but that puts Aldebaran conjunct the Descendant, Moon conjunct Pollux, and Mars conjunct Arcturus (and those conjunctions are 10'-20' of arc).

Lot of Death is at 16° Scorpio. Scorpio is poisons of all kinds, including poison from burning plastics and wiring in the command module where he died (he and others died of smoke inhalation). Ruler Lot of Death is Mars (who is also the 4th House Sect Triplicity Ruler) in Libra, a Human and Violent Sign. Human negligence was involved here, and I suppose some would split hairs over whether or not death was violent, and personally I only see one Human Violent or Violent Sign involved here so I would characterize that as a sudden/frantic death rather than physically violent, and more of an accidental nature.

Many of the Persians would look at Saturn, which happens to be in Pisces and is an indicator of drowning or suffocation (as is Moon in Cancer especially with Moon debilitated by the South Node).

Getting back to life span, without doing all the freaking math, I just want you to how the rays of the Benefics and Malefics intervene. This isn't the actual math, but I just want you to get the gist of the idea.

So you direct the Lot of Fortune to the Descendant, and it's 34° away (again this isn't the actual math I'm using this for illustrative purposes) so that would be 34 years.

Jupiter (moving clock-wise) comes to trine the Descendant at 8° Libra and that's 44 years you would add to the life span. Then Venus (going clock-wise) comes to the trine of the Descendant at 8° Aquarius so you'd add 38 years. Now you subtract the Malefics. Mars comes to the square of the Descendant at 8° Virgo so that's minus 35 years and then Saturn comes to the opposition of the Descendant at 8° Sagittarius so that's minus 82 years and that would be the life span.

Again, you're actually using the Arcs of Direction not the actual degrees.

Looking at the chart, it really wouldn't matter if he was born an hour later or an hour or two earlier, he just didn't have that long to live, it just wasn't part of the plan.
Attached Images http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/images/attach/jpg.gif Roger Chaffee.jpg (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=19048&d=1305771660) (40.0 KB, 294 views)
__________________
Four Modern Astrologers said Serial Killer John Wayne Gacy: "…can be very good with kids..." "...just your presence would be beneficial to other people..." "...a fairly well-rounded personality...you can offer a good role model..." "You have an instinctive awareness and your uninhibited response to life can refresh and gladden whomever you encounter."

Traditional Astrology Says: "...shows a strange mind and very wicked."

Gacy received 12 Death and 21 Life sentences for the murder of 33 boys.

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/images/futura/buttons/quote.gif (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=286564)

Jup this is more confusing to me:unsure:But because i had some time today to read the Bonatti's method i need to ask a question cause i'm afraid i made a mistake with the Hyleg.Do we use the planets wich are in face,detri and fall?

JUPITERASC
12-07-2011, 01:50 AM
Jup this is more confusing to me:unsure:But because i had some time today to read the Bonatti's method i need to ask a question cause i'm afraid i made a mistake with the Hyleg.Do we use the planets wich are in face,detri and fall?

Is the Hyleg according to Bonatti already determined then paraskeyh? I mean according to Bernadette Brady's very helpful pdf which we use as our guide, the Hyleg can only in that case be:

(1) the Sun
(2) the Moon
(3) the degree of the Ascendant
(4)the part of fortune
(5) the degree of the Conjunction or Prevention

Also, how certain is it that the birthtime is correct?

In which context are the planets you refer to? Hyleg? or those Aspecting Hyleg? or Alcoccoden? or those Aspecting Alcoccoden?

Read BobZemco's advice :smile:

paraskeyh
12-07-2011, 01:40 PM
I mean in my chart, because we agreed before that the part of fortune must be the hyleg but i read the text and Brady says(27)I tend to give the Greater years to any planet that is angular,or Succeedant provided that it is not in DETRIMENT OR FALL.And i dont know if Saturn in my chart is Alcoccoden.Because my chart is diurnal with my sun in angular house in sextile with Saturn wich is in Detriment in sun dignities.Thats why i'm asking if planets in face,detriment and fall count as alcoccoden when aspecting the Hyleg.If the above is right then sun in my chart is hyleg and saturn is alcoccoden and not the part of fortune with jupiter as alcoccoden.

JUPITERASC
12-07-2011, 10:39 PM
I mean in my chart, because we agreed before that the part of fortune must be the hyleg but i read the text and Brady says(27)I tend to give the Greater years to any planet that is angular,or Succeedant provided that it is not in DETRIMENT OR FALL.And i dont know if Saturn in my chart is Alcoccoden.Because my chart is diurnal with my sun in angular house in sextile with Saturn wich is in Detriment in sun dignities.Thats why i'm asking if planets in face,detriment and fall count as alcoccoden when aspecting the Hyleg.If the above is right then sun in my chart is hyleg and saturn is alcoccoden and not the part of fortune with jupiter as alcoccoden.
Bernadette Brady's pdf says that "according to Bonnati the alcoccoden is the planet that forms a ptolemaic aspect to the Hyleg and has the greatest dignity in the Hyleg's place"

You have said Sun is Hyleg - Since Saturn is the only planet forming a ptolemaic aspect to Hyleg paraskeyh we have no choice!
Saturn is the alcoccoden.

It seems Sun according to this method is Hyleg.

Therefore Saturn is Alcoccoden

In my opinion however to be certain, more investigation is needed - did you read the advice of BobZemco?

Also did you notice Bernadette Brady tells us: Bonatti considered that a planet in a cadent house within about 8 degrees of an angular house is considered to be angular.

A planet in an angular house and 5 degrees from a succeedant house is considered to be succeedant.

And a planet in a succeedant house which is 3 degrees from the cadent house cusp is considered to be cadent. :smile:

paraskeyh
12-08-2011, 11:53 AM
Bernadette Brady's pdf says that "according to Bonnati the alcoccoden is the planet that forms a ptolemaic aspect to the Hyleg and has the greatest dignity in the Hyleg's place"


You have said Sun is Hyleg - Since Saturn is the only planet forming a ptolemaic aspect to Hyleg paraskeyh we have no choice!
Saturn is the alcoccoden.

It seems Sun according to this method is Hyleg.

Therefore Saturn is Alcoccoden

In my opinion however to be certain, more investigation is needed - did you read the advice of BobZemco?

Also did you notice Bernadette Brady tells us: Bonatti considered that a planet in a cadent house within about 8 degrees of an angular house is considered to be angular.

A planet in an angular house and 5 degrees from a succeedant house is considered to be succeedant.

And a planet in a succeedant house which is 3 degrees from the cadent house cusp is considered to be cadent. :smile:

Sun might be the Hyleg and saturn is the only planet that forms a sextile with it, but Saturn is in detriment in sun dignities .So is Saturn the Alcoccoden?Or as Alcoccoden count only the planets that form an aspect with the hyleg and they are in rulership,exaltation,triplicity and term Only?If sun cannot produce an alcoccoden then sun isnt the hyleg at all.

paraskeyh
12-08-2011, 03:15 PM
Sun might be the Hyleg and saturn is the only planet that forms a sextile with it, but Saturn is in detriment in sun dignities .So is Saturn the Alcoccoden?Or as Alcoccoden count only the planets that form an aspect with the hyleg and they are in rulership,exaltation,triplicity and term Only?If sun cannot produce an alcoccoden then sun isnt the hyleg at all.

I mean can an Alcoccoden be in detriment or fall in hylegs place?

paraskeyh
03-25-2012, 07:46 PM
If my sun is hyleg and saturn alcoccoden then the critical age is 30!Thats why i stoped writing because i scared

JUPITERASC
03-25-2012, 11:26 PM
If my sun is hyleg and saturn alcoccoden then the critical age is 30!Thats why i stoped writing because i scared
paraskeyh if the practice scares you then you are correct to no longer pursue it. Are you aware of the following guidelines and clarifications regarding this technique as provided by dr. farr?
Again, my belief (and that of many others) is that death is NOT predicted nor predictable, but CRITICAL YEARS are and can be estimated, using a variety of delineative techniques; there is only one valid reason for such estimations, and that is so that something can be done to facilitate the individual in that critical year. Otherwise it is vain curiousity, which is never a good reason for anything!
IMO we are all agreed that Omnisphericus thread is intended for the purpose of exploring the idea that the Hyleg and Alcocoden are an indication regarding the Vital Life Force of the native - meaning the potential Vital Life Force in the absence of any form of intervention:smile:

This conversation here
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46232
inspired me to open a thread were I/we would try to say more about this medieval technique of the "Giver of Life" (Hyleg) and the "Giver of Years" (Alcocoden), which according to the medieavls should give the amount of years of life to the native.

So, Hyleg and Alcocoden are showing the Vital Life Force of the native.

They show how much years in life do you have according to the 'Esse' or the condition of your body and soul.

With the modern medicine it seems out that this Esse is prolonged

If the nativity dies from a serial killer, or a car accident H & A does not count, they do not show the accidents, they show the condition of the body and soul and accordingly how much years one have.

paraskeyh - dr. farr has indicated the value of this approach of assessing potential Vital Life Force of the native for simply therapeutic purposes and the importance of these techniques in SUPPORTING the native at critical times during the life:smile:


Originally Posted by dr. farr http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/images/futura/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=365435#post365435)
However, I do think that many use this kind of thing for indications of potential critical years rather than fatalistic death clock predicting - I KNOW that most reputable jyotish use "longevity" evaluations for just that purpose (indications of critical years), and in astro-therapeutics these "red flag" indications, derived from such methods, are of value in preventive therapeutics.

in the case of Whitney Houston, her progressed SN conjuncted her ascending degree (8 Pisces) at her 48th birthday (natal SN @ 20 Capricorn): astro-therapeutically, this would have been a red flag that her 48th year was a definite critical period, and preventive measures (low stress, much care about drugs and medication, tonification for her heart -which her natal indicated as a potential weak area in her health, etc) would have been prescribed for her by a knowledgeable practitioner; the fact that classical hyleg/alcohedron analysis (which I myself do not use) also indicated her 48th year as possibly anaretic (as one of 3 such possible critical years using the analysis given in this thread) would have decidedly underscored the critical-ness of the 48th year and the importance of undertaking natural (non-drug) preventive and corrective measures, during that time...

babec
09-12-2012, 05:50 PM
Hello!

Somebody can help to me? I want know what is the Alcoccoden in my chart?!
My Hyleg is the Sun in Virgo X house.
6. Sept. 1970 Long: 20'40 E, Lat: 46'34 N

Thanks
Mona (woman)

Culpeper
09-12-2012, 06:27 PM
To babec:

Mercury is most likely alcoccoden. The years of Mercury at that location is 76+. This is estimated life span. To find the actual length of life both profections and directions must be considered.

babec
09-13-2012, 06:40 AM
Thank you Culpeper:-)

My Mercury in Virgo X. house too (there is my Sun). Mercury trigon with Saturn (sextil with Neptun, and conj. with Pluto, but this is not important). So the Saturn can give + how many years? Need look middle years or ...?
Thanks
Mona

Culpeper
09-13-2012, 06:30 PM
Here is the rule. It the alcoccoden is near Jupiter or Venus and in the same sign and there is no other planet between, add the least years of the alcoccoden to the number. If Saturn or Mars are near, the same rules but subtract the least years. Other aspects do not apply.

Mercury is very strong here in its domicile and angular house so it will give greater years or better. Just for info. the least years of Mercury are 20. I am sure that a table of the years of the planets can be found on line.

JUPITERASC
09-13-2012, 07:15 PM
Here is the rule. It the alcoccoden is near Jupiter or Venus and in the same sign and there is no other planet between, add the least years of the alcoccoden to the number. If Saturn or Mars are near, the same rules but subtract the least years. Other aspects do not apply.

Mercury is very strong here in its domicile and angular house so it will give greater years or better. Just for info. the least years of Mercury are 20. I am sure that a table of the years of the planets can be found on line .
The middle years of Mercury = 48

The greater years of Mercury = 76 :smile:

babec
09-14-2012, 06:20 AM
Yess yess, I got a table of the years of the planets can be found online. Just
I could not understand what planet can to be alcoccoden (but I already read, just not understand), and how to look at planets, what is alcoccoden. Jupiter and Venus are not in same sign with Hyleg and Alcoccoden, and between some planets, the Mars, in same Sign with Hyleg and Alcoccoden, but between the Alcoccoden and Mars is the Hyleg (Mars on MC).
But Mars sextil with Venus, and sextil with Jupiter (they is in 12 house, but good aspect) So in this situation I can look Mars, or just Mercury alone? Saturn in VII. house, that is far.
Thanks for the replay, and sorry for more questions!
Mona

paraskeyh
09-25-2012, 06:44 PM
Yess yess, I got a table of the years of the planets can be found online. Just
I could not understand what planet can to be alcoccoden (but I already read, just not understand), and how to look at planets, what is alcoccoden. Jupiter and Venus are not in same sign with Hyleg and Alcoccoden, and between some planets, the Mars, in same Sign with Hyleg and Alcoccoden, but between the Alcoccoden and Mars is the Hyleg (Mars on MC).
But Mars sextil with Venus, and sextil with Jupiter (they is in 12 house, but good aspect) So in this situation I can look Mars, or just Mercury alone? Saturn in VII. house, that is far.
Thanks for the replay, and sorry for more questions!
Mona

Dont take this literally.

babec
09-29-2012, 01:18 PM
Dont take this literally.

Okay...again please.
My Sun in Virgo X. house....so that is the Hyleg. My Sun sextile with Moon (fall 12-I houses) and semi-quadrate with Venus (domicil 12 house). My Mercure (domicil) in Virgo X house too, but without aspect with Sun. This time the Alcoccoden Venus or Mercure? Because Alcoccoden is need aspect with Hyleg. :joyful:
Thanks: Mona

ScorpioCrow
02-17-2015, 09:06 PM
Why don't you just focus on life instead of death? seems a rather morbid interest and I don't believe there is a death signature that is 100% reliable...

Hyleg
Definition of HylegThe Giver of Life. Said of a planet so located as to have influence upon the longevity of the native. It is one of the most complex and controversial subjects in the field of astrology, but which has fallen more or less in disfavour as the result of the concept that any attempt to predict the time of death is now generally considered unethical. When it had progressed to an aspect to the place of the Anareta, the taker-away of life, the native was presumed to have run his span and death ensued...

Death morbid? I don't know, being Scorpio-influenced myself:biggrin:, it's just another part of life...

But consider this:

Death of Jim Morrison on July 3 1971, born Dec 8 1943
His Sun was Hyleg.
On that day, his progressed Sun was at 13 Capricorn, close to Anareta (Arabic "Point of a Killing Planet") at 15 Capricorn...indicating, maybe, that he actually died 2 years later when his progressed Sun reached Anareta exactly. The circumstances are uncertain, not trying to start controversy. Who knows. Just a thought.

JUPITERASC
02-17-2015, 09:21 PM
Death morbid? I don't know, being Scorpio-influenced myself:biggrin:, it's just another part of life...

But consider this:

Death of Jim Morrison on July 3 1971, born Dec 8 1943
His Sun was Hyleg.
On that day, his progressed Sun was at 13 Capricorn, close to Anareta (Arabic "Point of a Killing Planet") at 15 Capricorn...indicating, maybe, that he actually died 2 years later when his progressed Sun reached Anareta exactly. The circumstances are uncertain, not trying to start controversy. Who knows. Just a thought.


Death is a fact of life :smile:
Every zodiac sign has some interest/curiosity regarding death

re:
progressed Sun being two degrees from the anareta at death
keep in mind
that the Sun has a three degree orb
so was within orb

and
there would have been multiple other indicators,
not solely one Sun aspect

certainly interesting

JUPITERASC
02-17-2015, 09:37 PM
by the way :smile:
informative thread on Jean Baptiste Morin's prediction of his own death http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8630

There is a website based on the astrological methods
of 17th century Astrologer Morin de Villefranche
as was taught by Zoltan Mason of New york.
This approach views the chart as a whole integrated unit http://forumonastrology.com/foa/newmain.html

paraskeyh
02-17-2015, 09:38 PM
Dear friend that subject is very difficult to understand and explain. One year ago i started to study astrology in a professional level and i havent dealt with that subject again,but if you want to search about time of crisis in a horoscope(by writing crisis i mean especially health,accidents or death) i think you may find very usefull to read about moons nodes and especially eclipses.I had a death in my family the last May and i found out that death may occur under certain eclipses.

JUPITERASC
02-17-2015, 10:03 PM
Dear friend that subject is very difficult to understand and explain.
One year ago i started to study astrology in a professional level and i havent dealt with that subject again,
but if you want to search about time of crisis in a horoscope(by writing crisis i mean especially health,accidents or death)
i think you may find very usefull to read about moons nodes and especially eclipses.
I had a death in my family the last May and i found out that death may occur under certain eclipses.


Definitely Eclipses are important messengers of change - sometimes death - many other changes also :smile:
such as new job, new home, birth of a child and so on
the natal chart requires study to find the natal promise
ECLIPSES on the same or similar degree
recur at intervals


BILL MERIDIAN - a pupil of CHARLES JAYNE
has written a book explaining the effects of eclipses in natal astrology

QUOTE FROM: "Predictive Power of Eclipse Paths" by Bill Meridian:

“Eclipse paths are an astrological technique that can pin point important areas on the surface of the earth for you individually.

When you were born there had to be an eclipse near your birth.

By a method developed in the 1930's by Lorne Edward Johndhro of California,
which he later passed on to Charles A Jayne Junior of New York,
we can determine which eclipse is your eclipse path.

This could be an area that could be very important to you during your life,
whether you go there or not.

People from that area, ideas from that area, products from that area, can be very important to you.

If you are like me, you wind up living right under your eclipse path!”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_t4FQ...eature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_t4FQbwji1g&feature=related)



THE NATAL PART OF THE BOOK
explains that the "birth eclipse" is the eclipse nearest to birth, before or after
- usually a solar eclipse, but is sometimes lunar.
Bill Meridan's book explains that Eclipses on the same area can be studied as eclipse families.
and
An eclipse can link two places together.


Eclipse effects ARE NOT NECESSARILY 'disastrous'
but they are certainly linked with change
such as relocation, change of career, relationship changes
and so on

An eclipse does not necessarily affect everyone,
only those whose natal charts are connected to it
by aspect to their natal planets
and/or
aspect to their ASC/DESC/IC/MCImportant to keep in mind
that the eclipse degree may be activated
by any transiting PLANET
within 6 months to a yearAND
MAY ALSO BE RE-ACTIVATED
BY ECLIPSES
even years later


changes indicated may well occur to others
- such as friends, co-workers and not solely to family
and

when eclipses affect countries
then the entire population is in some way affected


QUOTE

'.....There are eclipses that re-activate other eclipses
from decades earlier and 'repeat',
which MAY have significant impact due to that eclipse degree remaining a sensitive point for years,
decades,
even centuries.
Far longer than anyone had previously thought
A book to revolutionize the study of eclipses at Cycles Research....' http://www.billmeridian.com/ppoep.html

paraskeyh
02-17-2015, 10:34 PM
Also Judith Hill in her book [THE LUNAR NODES] in chapter XII page 142 writes exactly the types of important eclipses and their pottential effects and she is explaining that rarely something happen in the same day of an eclipse and usually it is possible for something to happen within a year of that eclipse especially if a planet triggers that point by conjunction,opposition and square,but the most things happen within 1or 2 weeks and if not, then will happen after 3 months approximately one week before or after.Mars often acts like trigger but mostly the Sun.

paraskeyh
02-17-2015, 10:41 PM
Eclipses to someones Sun and Moon within 1-3 degrees and if south node is involved too again within 1-3 degrees then someone may experience a crisis.The more tight the aspect is the more possibilities for something to happen.

JUPITERASC
02-18-2015, 11:54 AM
Also Judith Hill in her book [THE LUNAR NODES] in chapter XII page 142 writes exactly the types of important eclipses and their pottential effects and she is explaining that rarely something happen in the same day of an eclipse and usually it is possible for something to happen within a year of that eclipse especially if a planet triggers that point by conjunction,opposition and square,but the most things happen within 1or 2 weeks and if not, then will happen after 3 months approximately one week before or after.Mars often acts like trigger but mostly the Sun.

Eclipses may also manifest their effects
four days before

or

four days after an eclipse :smile: