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JupiterEyed
07-09-2011, 10:42 AM
Greetings!

In looking at the dignities (via Lilly's table) of the seven traditional planets in my natal chart... it appears that all of them are peregrine. Additionally, the Sun is in detriment, whereas Mercury is in fall and detriment.

--------------------Dom--Exa--Trip--Term--Face
Su 24 AQU 05'-----Sa---------- Me-- Ju--- Mo
Mo 13 ARI 11'------Ma--- Su--- Ju-- Ve--- Su
Me 03 PIS 25'------Ju--- Ve--- Ma-- Ve--- Sa
Ve 29 AQU 58'-----Sa---------- Me-- Ma--- Mo
Ma 06 SAG 21'-----Ju---------- Ju-- Ju--- Me
Ju 28 AQU 10'-----Sa---------- Me-- Ma--- Mo
Sa 08 SAG 43'------Ju---------- Ju-- Ve--- Me

I don't know how to take this. Honestly my first reaction was akin to, "Oh, crud." However, I realize that there are probably a multitude of other mitigating factors that come into play after the assessment of dignities/debilities. I suppose I have two questions to help me clarify:

In general, how do all of my planets being peregrine affect their functions? Is it the same as in horary, where peregrine planets are wanderers/foreigners? Do they neither act as themselves nor fulfill their natural functions?

More specifically, where should I begin to take the assessment to start to get a clearer/larger picture? That is, what should I start looking for; afflictions among the planets, accidental dignities, and etc.?


Thank you kindly in advance
*JupiterEyed

Culpeper
07-09-2011, 06:28 PM
Do not panic over peregrine planets in your natal chart. I know from reading the Renaissance astrologers that they seemed to think that this was the worst possible condition of a planet. However, that was not the position of the classical astrologers. They would say that Fall is the worst condition of a planet. Peregrine then is neither good of bad, but you have to look at other things. Sect, house position, and aspects from malefics and benefics become very important when the planets lack essential dignity.

There are two tables of essential dignities: the Egyptian and Ptolemy. Egyptian was used in the classical or hellenistic times and Ptolemy came into favor during medieval. I use the dignities of the Egyptians. The medieval astrologers added the number system to rank the strength of the dignities, but this makes term and face appear too weak. The lesser dignities especially terms or bounds were considered almost as strong as domicile in classical times. The dignities have different meanings and this may be more important than there strength.

Then there is the issue of mutual reception. This is when planets are in each other's dignities. And it does not have to be dignities of the same kind. Sometimes this is considered better for planets than being in their own dignity. Mutual receptions in your chart include Jupiter and Saturn, Sun and Moon and Mercury and Saturn. I did not give your chart an exhaustive study, but I do not see that you face exceptional problems in life.

dr. farr
07-10-2011, 04:23 AM
Culpeper's insights are valuable; don't get hung-up on "peregrine"!
I personally have long ago come to reject the peregrine concept as invalid; when we take into account-relative to essential dignities-the duodenaries (sign 1/12ths) and the planetary monomoiria (instead of the half dozen different lists* of "terms") and the sign monomoiria, and when we further note that the ancients included essential debility/detriment in excluding ("saving") a planet from peregrine status (this ancient doctrine was rejected during the Renaissance time, since then the doctrine "essential debility/detriment does not save from peregrine" has been the accepted dogma), the fact is that IF a peregrine state is a potential reality, with these other considerations just mentioned, it would be rather rare.
...but like I said, I myself don't believe in the peregrine concept at all...



*lists of terms (bounds) giving varying planetary allocations to sign degrees
Egyptian
Ptolemaic
Lilly re-working of Ptolemaic terms
Vedic ("Hindu"-eg as given in Al-Biruni)
Chaldean/Babylonian
Astaratus

Anachiel
07-10-2011, 08:53 AM
First and foremost; all of your planets are not perigrine. You have Saturn and Jupiter in mutual reception by sign. This saves them from peregrine status.

Essential dignity is what you are looking at here and that is only of particular relevance in horary astrology. When it comes to natal astrology, this will vary and change over time as your chart progresses, directs, (whatever method you might use to move the chart as you evolve through time).

Also, tho off topic here, I must add; you have the Sun, Venus and Jupiter all conjoined which gives you particular insights that others miss, a very keen eye, and the ability to forecast, to put it mildly. Essential dignity is one component, the configurations are utmost here.

Look at it like this: the planets and how they relate to each other, the aspects, are the building of the house. After the house is built, inspected and made habitable, then you look at essential dignity, the decorations, the paint, etc. Some people have an eye for this sort of detail; others unfortunately don't.

Blessings,

Anachiel

Steeler
07-10-2011, 11:54 AM
The thing I find most annoying about astrology is that there are so many different ways to calculate dignities etc., that you are left wondering what method is the correct one, since a lot of astrologers seem to disagree with eachother. Dr.farr doesn't pay attention to peregrine planets and he explains why, but then you will have another astrologer who will say that peregrine planets are incredibly important and need to be focused on. Who do you believe? One person uses the equal house method finding it to be the best, another one placidus, whole sign...And most think that their personal method of interpreting natal charts is the correct one. Isn't that a bit ludicrous?

I also seem to have a few peregrine planets in my chart, but according to one method of finding out peregrine planets, peregrine planets are only those that are not aspected by other planets, yet Lilly thinks that every planet that isn't in a particular degree is Peregrine. None of this makes any sense if you really look at it logically. So what to do? Stick to one method and one method only to calculate things and don't jump around. Also, don't question the methods. (And yes, now Im being sarcastic.)

Remember that nothing is ever set in stone and that if one person tells you a planet is horribly afflicted and will give you incredible amounts of problems, that another person using a different method will tell you the exact opposite. Its up to you to decide who is right and who is wrong.

Anachiel
07-10-2011, 12:11 PM
Steeler; you make very valid and important points. This is how I clarified the waters for myself:

1) find a master astrologer (they are all dead so it won't be hard to find one)
2) learn their method and use the house system they used.
3) Study till enlightment is achieved or until, at least,you have practical results
4) repeat steps 2-4

The problem is, every ancient astrologer lived in differring times, used a different system and had different limitations. You can't just mix and match all this S#!t and expect to make a pie. Even amongst the ancient astrologers, you can't just mix and match them all because they all had reasons and systems that no one takes time to learn to distinguish even WHY anyone used what they did.
For example, the egyptian terms were used by...well, egyptians..they were not using the same sort of astrology Lilly was! Chaldean fit more with that line of reasoning. And as for house systems...they are all basically the same except for a few degrees. If you can;t take the time to learn where and why they were developed (which how many people can do that??) then see step 2 above and proceed confidently.
As for modern times well...everyone wants to repaint the Mona Lisa don't they..well, you can't do that until you do what the master painters did and that is not inventing something new, it is investing in what is old.

Blessings,

Anachiel

P.S. FYI since you mentioned him...Lilly said that a planet can be saved from peregrine status if it is in mutual reception by sign or exaltation, too. So, a planet does not have to be in a partcular place. It can also exchange places to give it dignity. Also, peregrine is not a forecast of DOOM. It simply means that the planet is a wanderer. Peregrine comes from a Latin word meaning "to move beyond borders". This doesn't mean it is dead or disfunctional! LOL Again, look...A Planet in it's sign, for example, is like a King...the King has duties and cannot just ramble about and do as he pleases. He is powerful but bound by the court he rules and the duties he has. A perigrine planet can wander and play and may not have "POWER", per se, but has freedom and, in some cases, is a rogue. But, again, beyond rulership, exaltation and triplicity...you're starting to split hairs and really, this is very little used with any skill except in the realm of traditional horary. So don;t sweat the small stuff. :)

dr. farr
07-11-2011, 04:12 AM
Yes, Steeler, there are many-very many-avenues (models, actually) in macrocosmic analysis and the practical utilization of macrocosmic information ("astrology") This is because this subject involves, ultimately, the nature and meaning of the Universe and Life itself: can't really put that into a neat and tidy, easily understood a+b=c categorical methodology to apply under any and all circumstances.

What Anachiel recommends is pretty much the way to do it: one must start somewhere: first decide where your mind and education is at: do you lean toward modern thought, or are you more arcanely oriented? If modern, then begin your studies with top-flight Modernist authors; if you lean more toward traditions and esoteric outlooks, then begin with the top-flight Traditionalist authors now available (and their work in collecting the ancient texts)
After several years (at least 3 to 5 years) of study and trying out whichever approach (whichever astrological model) you have decided to start with, see how well you are satisified with its RESULTS (not its theories, but its RESULTS) If you are satisfied, then continue on, and do not let other theories or approaches interfere with or otherwise affect what you do!

However, if you are not that well satisfied with your results, then look around at other approaches, study and experiment with them, and proceed as before.

What to believe? Believe NOTHING! For example: Someone writes about some kind of rules for delineation: ok, if they make sense to you, then experiment with them. If they work well, keep on with them. If they work so so, look for something else that works better. If they are hit and miss, or if you just can't understand them enough to make them work like they are alleged to, then drop them and move on to something that you CAN understand and that WORKS reliably FOR YOU.

Anyway, that's what I've done over the past several decades, which has led me to become the eclectic I am.
One thing, though: you must make a thorough study of the literature, you can't get away from that.
But equally you MUST EXPERIMENT with this stuff, you must TRY IT OUT, to really see for yourself-armchair theorizing will get you nowhere fast.

JupiterEyed
07-25-2011, 03:01 AM
Hello everyone; Culpeper, Dr. Farr, Anachiel & Steeler...

Thank you ALL for taking the time to share your knowledge and opinions with me!

I agree that the best route is to decide on my astrological orientation (modern, traditional, or some kind of blend) and then decide who, exactly, to study under. That will be the hard part, as I often find the language of older texts hard to sort through, though I have no doubt that I can do it. The real question is, am I patient enough to sort through the language? Sometimes I wonder, but I do have a lot of heart for astrology. I wish that my first astrology book had been a traditional text, even if Lilly's, instead of "The Only Astrology Book You'll Ever Need." Though a good place to start, looking back, I feel robbed (in a sense) of all the time I could have spent learning from sources with more... quality.

If I were to follow the traditional route, who would you suggest?

And thank you for reassuring me about "peregrine" planets. Admittedly, I did feel a little worried at what that would possibly mean for me and the circumstances of my life. Then again I also thought that perhaps having so many, if they really were peregrine, would help explain why I have always felt I just do not belong, in a great many senses of the phrase. Always feeling like a misfit on the planet, in my culture, among my peers, in my classes, at my work and so forth.

Regardless, I do understand what you all have been so kind as to tell me, and I will begin to research the "Who's who" in traditional astrology.

Thank you -all of you- again!
*JupiterEyed

dr. farr
07-25-2011, 04:11 AM
Suggestion for Traditional studies: go to Ben Dykes website and begin from there; go to astroamerica.com and look at the various titles there in the Traditionalist and "ancient astrology" sections.

Get Devore's "Encyclopedia of Astrology", which does a good job in defining both ancient and modern terms, concepts, methods; use this for reference;
and got Manly P. Hall's "Astrological Keywords", also a mix of ancient, Traditional and Modernist keywords with definitions-it also will be a valuable quick reference.

Best wishes in your studies! Please, always keep an open mind!

Note: I second Anachiel's recommendation of Robert Zoller (see below)

Anachiel
07-25-2011, 04:24 PM
I am not affiliated with any of the following people in any way.

I would strongly suggest Lee Lehman. You can watch some of her videos on YouTube. She is very intelligent and very much a traditional astrologer who "mixes reason and art" as Lilly would say. Being a triple Virgo (I heard, not confirmed )I think helped lol She has some good, intelligent and understandable books on the subject as well that can get you started.
Another affordable yet sane tradtional teacher is Robert Zoller.

Blessings,

Anachiel

JUPITERASC
07-25-2011, 04:32 PM
I am not affiliated with any of the following people in any way.

I would strongly suggest Lee Lehman. You can watch some of her videos on YouTube. She is very intelligent and very much a traditional astrologer who "mixes reason and art" as Lilly would say. Being a triple Virgo (I heard, not confirmed )I think helped lol She has some good, intelligent and understandable books on the subject as well that can get you started.
Another affordable yet sane tradtional teacher is Robert Zoller.

Blessings,

Anachiel

Was Lee Lehman taught by Robert Zoller? http://www.new-library.com/zoller/ :smile:

JUPITERASC
07-25-2011, 04:37 PM
The thing I find most annoying about astrology is that there are so many different ways to calculate dignities etc., that you are left wondering what method is the correct one, since a lot of astrologers seem to disagree with eachother. Dr.farr doesn't pay attention to peregrine planets and he explains why, but then you will have another astrologer who will say that peregrine planets are incredibly important and need to be focused on. Who do you believe? One person uses the equal house method finding it to be the best, another one placidus, whole sign...And most think that their personal method of interpreting natal charts is the correct one. Isn't that a bit ludicrous?

I also seem to have a few peregrine planets in my chart, but according to one method of finding out peregrine planets, peregrine planets are only those that are not aspected by other planets, yet Lilly thinks that every planet that isn't in a particular degree is Peregrine. None of this makes any sense if you really look at it logically. So what to do? Stick to one method and one method only to calculate things and don't jump around. Also, don't question the methods. (And yes, now Im being sarcastic.)

Remember that nothing is ever set in stone and that if one person tells you a planet is horribly afflicted and will give you incredible amounts of problems, that another person using a different method will tell you the exact opposite. Its up to you to decide who is right and who is wrong.

Anachiel has this pertinent comment on the subject from a previous post :smile:


It is my belief that this confusion generally arises from taking house systems out of the context of their time and the particular methods they were each applied to.
For example, in this particular case, Ptolemy in his third book of the Tetrabiblos describes two completely different house divisions when focusing on life and death matters. The difference is the calculation (or perspective) in order to determine the difference between what "rules" life and death in the chart vs. when they actually are "active" and can be "used". So, you see a difference in divisions as to how to first determine what is, as opposed to, when to use what is. Each having a different way to divide the chart to determine these.
I am certainly no scholar and I leave that to greater minds but, there appears to me to be a lost view of perspective as to when to use different house systems for particular reasons. It was not just a free-for-all by any means and there was a method in choosing what has now become madness of choice. lol

JupiterEyed
07-07-2015, 12:07 AM
Suggestion for Traditional studies: go to Ben Dykes website and begin from there; go to astroamerica.com and look at the various titles there in the Traditionalist and "ancient astrology" sections.

Get Devore's "Encyclopedia of Astrology", which does a good job in defining both ancient and modern terms, concepts, methods; use this for reference;
and got Manly P. Hall's "Astrological Keywords", also a mix of ancient, Traditional and Modernist keywords with definitions-it also will be a valuable quick reference.

Best wishes in your studies! Please, always keep an open mind!

Note: I second Anachiel's recommendation of Robert Zoller (see below)

Aaaaand a whopping four years later...!

Hello! I just wanted to tell you that I've recently decided to take the plunge into traditional astrology and Ben Dykes' Traditional Astrology for Today: An Introduction is among my first books for the undertaking. Thanks for the recs dr farr and Anachiel!