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View Full Version : William Lilly's indications of a violent death.Do they work?


Lost_spirit
05-17-2011, 10:11 AM
For anyone not familiar with these indications,you may want to check "Chistian astrology Book 3" or the following article http://www.astrologyedmonton.com/Newsletters/Jan2007.pdf

What I like about these rules is that they are not the usual indication type "malefics afflicting the luminaries" or "malefics in the 8th" that is adopted by many people.

Lilly uses the house rulers,the violent signs and the violent fixed stars as well,which explains why people with no apparent violent configurations in their chart died violently and why others with an afflicted chart had a natural death in old age.

I have tested these rules in some charts,and even though it can't be considered a research,so far it works better than any other theory on this subject.

I'd like to know an expert's opinion on this.If anyone uses these rules,if they work for them and any other consideration on the subject.

BobZemco
05-18-2011, 03:25 AM
What I like about these rules is that they are not the usual indication type "malefics afflicting the luminaries" or "malefics in the 8th" that is adopted by many people.

I don't know of anyone that adopts that, but I'm glad to see you got your game face on.

Lilly uses the house rulers,the violent signs and the violent fixed stars as well,which explains why people with no apparent violent configurations in their chart died violently and why others with an afflicted chart had a natural death in old age.

That is part of it, yes, but understand that the non-violent Humans Signs (Gemini and Virgo) can indicate violent death, usually of an accidental nature, like you fall down the stairs and land on a pitch fork, or something like that. Could also be an illness transmitted by humans.

I have tested these rules in some charts,and even though it can't be considered a research,so far it works better than any other theory on this subject.

Naturally. Like I said, there's a little more to it than that. The 4th and 7th House also represent Death, specifically the Sect Triplicity Ruler for the 4th Sign, and I say Sign because you need to look at the Signs and not the Houses (unless you're using Whole Sign Houses).

So you're looking at the 4th Sign and the 8th Sign, not necessarily the 4th House and the 8th House.

I'd like to know an expert's opinion on this.If anyone uses these rules,if they work for them and any other consideration on the subject.

Those aren't Lily's rules. He's taken what he thinks are best from Ptolemy, Dorotheus, Omar, Abu Bakr, Masha-allah, Abu Ali and then people Bonatti has culled from like Sarcinator and Zael.

Other than that, yes, they're quite accurate.

Lost_spirit
05-18-2011, 08:24 AM
BobZemco thank you for answering this,I appreciate it a lot.According to some astrological books I've read,and I think Ptolemy is included,"a violent or remarkable death happens when both the malefics attack the luminaries,or one of them" etc. which I find to be inaccurate.Also,some texts give emphasis on the planets in the 8th house for the cause of death,But I found many empty 8th houses in violent deaths and in some cases Jupiter or Venus posited in there(or both).And that's what I mean "adopted by many people".

Now,I'm not sure what you mean about human signs involved in accidents.You're refferring to which placement in these signs?The houses involved,the triplicity ruler's placement,the malefics,what?I like to test what I learn,but I'm not sure what to test here.I have a few accidents in the charts I studied and Lilly's rules apply to them as well.

I suspected these are not entirely Lilly's rules,but I admit that they make a good set for beginners.I still test them wherever I can and so far they're good.

Apart from these,it's nice to here from a trusted member that they're accurate.

BobZemco
05-19-2011, 03:10 AM
According to some astrological books I've read,and I think Ptolemy is included,"a violent or remarkable death happens when both the malefics attack the luminaries,or one of them" etc. which I find to be inaccurate.

That's probably because Ptolemy is discussing Primary Directions, not the planetary situation in a Natal Chart. If you're researching Death (and it appears you are), then you've probably ran into comments on the Hyleg and Alcocoden.

Ptolemy doesn't use an Alcocoden. Ptolemy's theory is that what is Above Horizon is alive, what is Below Horizon is dead. When looking at the Houses Above Horizon, all of them make aspects to the Ascendant except the 12th and 8th Houses, which are inconjunct the Ascendant.

For Day Chart, where the Sun is Above Horizon, Ptolemy wants to find the Planet that has the most Dignity in the Sun, the pre-Natal New Moon, and the Ascendant. For each of those points, he is looking for a Planet that meets 3 of these 5 conditions: is the Sign Ruler, Exaltation Ruler, Sect Triplicity Ruler, Term Ruler or makes a partile or very close applying aspect to the point in question.

So, if the pre-Natal New Moon was at 6° Virgo, the Mercury is the Sign Ruler, Exaltation Ruler and Term Ruler, which is at least 3 dignities, and Mercury is a potential Hyleg candidate, assuming Mercury is in the 1st, 11th, 10th, 9th or 7th House of the chart.

If the Ascendant was at 22° Gemini, then Saturn is the Sect Triplicity Ruler and the Term Ruler, and suppose Saturn was at 21° Pisces in the 10th House in square to the Ascending Degree, so that is 3 dignities and Saturn is a potential Hyleg candidate.

It's actually very rare to find a Planet with at least 3 dignities in the Sun, Ascendant or pre-Natal New Moon.

The Houses in order of power are the 10th, 1st, 11th, 7th and 9th. He will take the best one out of the Sun, Moon and any Planet that has at least 3 dignities in either the Sun, pre-Natal New Moon or the Ascendant and determine which is the Hyleg.

If the Sun is in the 8th or 12th House, and the Moon is Below Horizon and no Planet meets the dignity conditions, then the Ascendant is automatically the Hyleg (and a Planet Combust cannot be Hyleg either).

For a Night Chart (Sun Below Horizon), Ptolemy is looking for the Planet that has at least 3 dignities in either the Moon, the pre-Natal Full Moon, or the Lot of Fortune, and again you're looking at the Sign Ruler, Exaltation Ruler, Sect Triplicity Ruler, Term Ruler or a very close applying or partile aspect to one of those 3 points.

If you can't find a Planet, and Moon is in the 8th or 12th House, then the Lot of Fortune is automatically the Hyleg.

Once he finds the Hyleg, then he directs it by Primary Direction. If the Hyleg is in the 7th or 9th House, then he directs it clock-wise to the Descendant (7th House Cusp) and the Arc of Direction (the number of degrees) is how long the Native will live.

That isn't just counting the number of degrees between the Hyleg and the 7th House Cusp, rather you're looking at Temporal Hours to arrive at the 7th House Cusp.

If it's 68°, then the Native lives 68 years. That's modified by the rays of the Benefics and Malefics who come to the Descendant by aspect through Primary Direction. The Benefics add years, the Malefics take away years.

Saturn and Mars (unless one of them happens to be Hyleg) you direct clockwise to the first square, opposition or conjunction of the Descendant, the Benefics (Venus and Jupiter unless one of them is the actually the Hyleg) you direct clock-wise to the first conjunciton, sextile or trine to the Descendant. Again, you're using Temporal Hours not actual degrees, and you add or subtract their Arcs of Direction to the Hyleg's Arc of Direction and that will tell you when the Native dies (and it will be dead on or less than 30 days -- usually within 4 days).

If the Hyleg is not in the 7th or 9th House, you direct it counter clock-wise, and here's where it can be attack by the rays of the Malefics or you can also direct the Malefics to the Hyleg.

The other times, and this is general and not very specific as the Hyleg, is when the Sign Ruler in a Profectional Chart is in very bad condition and in the Solar Return Chart the same Planet is Cadent, or worse yet in the 12th House, and then totally savaged by Mars and Saturn or Combust or where the Sun is Malefic (in square or opposition and not received by the Planet Sun is squaring or opposing), and then Mercury in square or opposition and not received is Malefic as well. That's an indicator of death, but it won't give the the time like Primary Directions will.

Also,some texts give emphasis on the planets in the 8th house for the cause of death,But I found many empty 8th houses in violent deaths and in some cases Jupiter or Venus posited in there(or both).And that's what I mean "adopted by many people".

I never paid much attention to that, and again the Sign is important. Being in the 8th House and being in the 8th Sign aren't always the same thing. I have Venus in Cancer in the 8th House, but Cancer is actually the 9th Sign, not the 8th Sign. By Sign (and by Whole Sign Houses) have Mercury and Sun in Gemini in the 8th House.

Also, you have to look at the Sign on the Ascendant. If it's Aries, then Scorpio rules the 8th or is the 8th Sign and if Mars is there, well, it's the same story with Venus and Jupiter when Libra is rising (making Taurus the 8th Sign) or Sagittarius is rising (making Pisces the 8th Sign).

Now,I'm not sure what you mean about human signs involved in accidents.You're refferring to which placement in these signs?The houses involved,the triplicity ruler's placement,the malefics,what?I like to test what I learn,but I'm not sure what to test here.I have a few accidents in the charts I studied and Lilly's rules apply to them as well.

Yes.

No, I use the Lot of Death, Ruler Lot of Death, Sect Triplicity Ruler 4th House and the 8th House Ruler and then string them together to tell a story. You can look at this chart.

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=19048&stc=1&d=1305771655

This is a Night Chart, so Sun cannot be Hyleg. There are no Planets that have the required Dignity in the Moon, pre-Natal Full Moon (28° Cancer) or the Lot of Fortune. The Moon is in the 8th House and cannot be Hyleg, so it automatically falls to the Lot of Fortune, who isn't exactly up to the task.

Because the Hyleg (the Lot of Fortune) is in the 2nd Quardrant (Occidental -- the 7th, 8th and 9th Houses), we direct it to the Descendant.

Just eyeballing the chart, he's not going to live very long, because the Lot of Fortune is going to move very quickly to the Descendant. That's most unfortunate, because he was a great man, but his chart his problematic. He has Antares rising with the Ascendant, but that puts Aldebaran conjunct the Descendant, Moon conjunct Pollux, and Mars conjunct Arcturus (and those conjunctions are 10'-20' of arc).

Lot of Death is at 16° Scorpio. Scorpio is poisons of all kinds, including poison from burning plastics and wiring in the command module where he died (he and others died of smoke inhalation). Ruler Lot of Death is Mars (who is also the 4th House Sect Triplicity Ruler) in Libra, a Human and Violent Sign. Human negligence was involved here, and I suppose some would split hairs over whether or not death was violent, and personally I only see one Human Violent or Violent Sign involved here so I would characterize that as a sudden/frantic death rather than physically violent, and more of an accidental nature.

Many of the Persians would look at Saturn, which happens to be in Pisces and is an indicator of drowning or suffocation (as is Moon in Cancer especially with Moon debilitated by the South Node).

Getting back to life span, without doing all the freaking math, I just want you to how the rays of the Benefics and Malefics intervene. This isn't the actual math, but I just want you to get the gist of the idea.

So you direct the Lot of Fortune to the Descendant, and it's 34° away (again this isn't the actual math I'm using this for illustrative purposes) so that would be 34 years.

Jupiter (moving clock-wise) comes to trine the Descendant at 8° Libra and that's 44 years you would add to the life span. Then Venus (going clock-wise) comes to the trine of the Descendant at 8° Aquarius so you'd add 38 years. Now you subtract the Malefics. Mars comes to the square of the Descendant at 8° Virgo so that's minus 35 years and then Saturn comes to the opposition of the Descendant at 8° Sagittarius so that's minus 82 years and that would be the life span.

Again, you're actually using the Arcs of Direction not the actual degrees.

Looking at the chart, it really wouldn't matter if he was born an hour later or an hour or two earlier, he just didn't have that long to live, it just wasn't part of the plan.

Lost_spirit
05-19-2011, 11:09 AM
Bob,your above post is so interesting that I'm considering saving it in a text file as a "how to" manual for charts.

From the methods you describe I understand you're following Ptolemy's techniques,which I found a little complicated when I read them,but thanks to your help they're more clear to me now.I have no problem doing calculations,as long as I'm sure it's the right method and I know the steps.Examples are very helpful,so thank you for this.

I always thought that the Hyleg can only be the Sun and Moon,according to their placement and dignity,and if none of them qualifies,we take either the Ascendant or the Part of Fortune based on whether it's a day or night chart.Having any planet,especially Mars and Saturn as the Hyleg is a new concept and I'm going to test it and see if it works.

That's true,I have a big interest in death in general,and crime as well,it's a very fascinating subject,so I try to dig as deep as I can just in case I find an accurate connection.

I like your methods and I'm going to use them.Thanks for all the info!

BobZemco
05-19-2011, 07:11 PM
From the methods you describe I understand you're following Ptolemy's techniques,which I found a little complicated when I read them,but thanks to your help they're more clear to me now.

Well, if you study long enough, you'll see where the Greek texts got not so much mistranslated, but the ideas got confused when the Jewish and Iranian Muslims translated them into Arabic. And then later when the Arabic texts are translated into Latin, many ideas get confused again. It wasn't until after the Byzantine Empire collapses that anyone has access to the Greek texts (and that also included biblical texts from the New Testament and a host of other works and histories).

By that time you have 15 different methods of calculating the Hyleg and part of the problem is "Hyleg" which is a transliteration of the Arabic "Hilaj" and the Muslims didn't do just when they translated the word into Arabic. You can see that now with the use of "syzygy" Moon instead of Conjunctional (pre-Natal New Moon) and Preventional (pre-Natal Full Moon). The use of "syzygy" totally destroys the meaning because the Conjunctional and Preventional Moon each have their own meaning in a chart.

Even aspects got butchered. To people like Bonatti and Zael and Ptolemy, a conjunction was a sextile, trine, square or opposition. When two Planets are in the same Sign and Degree, they are joined by body, or corporally joined or corporally joined by body, and that implies something completely different. When a Planet trines another, it's casting its light and rays (literally) at another Planet, but when two Planets are joined by body (what we today call a conjunction) it implies something different, that the energies of those two Planets are merged and you even look at the latitude to see how powerful it is (two Planets a +1° above the Planet of the Ecliptic are more powerful than one Planet at +1° and the other at -4°).

It's the same story with Profections, which got corrupted into today's Solar Arc Directions and Secondary Progressions.

So Bonatti doesn't understand the Hellenistic concept of "Witnessing" and so he allows an 8th House Hyleg, which is totally contrary to the whole point of finding the Hyleg. A Planet in the 8th House is inconjunct the Ascendant and can't "witness" events associated with the 1st House, and that implies no control. Think of wealth and the 2nd House where Jupiter is inconjunct the 2nd House, the Ruler for the Lot of Possessions (Substance) is inconjunct the 2nd House and the Significator of Wealth (the Almuten) is inconjunct the 2nd House. Those Planets can't witness the 2nd House and that implies the Native has no control over their wealth. They cannot create wealth or destroy wealth and they're totally reliant on other people to do that for them. So having an 8th House Hyleg is silly, because the Hyleg would have no connection to the Ascendant, which is the Native's life and health and appearance and such and wouldn't be able to control or influence events associated with the 1st House.

Ptolemy (and other Greeks) say if the Sun is in the 7th House in a Feminine Sign and the Moon is in the 11th House (which would also be a Feminine Sign) then take the Moon as Hyleg. Why? Because the 11th House is more powerful than the 7th House for this purpose (and because the 11th House sextiles the Ascendant while the 7th House opposes the Ascendant). Bonatti doesn't understand that so he says you can't use the Sun in the 7th House in a Feminine Sign at all, ever, but clearly that isn't what the Greeks were saying.

And you have the same problem with "Face." The Greek word actually implies the way a place faces another Planet, ie if it aspects another Planet, but that was corrupted in translation in the Arabic texts to mean Decan as in the Chaldean Decans which are a very weak form of Dignity. So the Greeks were looking at a Planet that aspects the Sun, or pre-Natal New Moon or the Ascendant, not a Planet that was the Decan Ruler of the Sun, pre-Natal New Moon or Ascendant.

I don't know how the Alcocoden came to be exactly. I have a problem using it, because it requires a lot of judgments. For a Planet that aspects the Alcocoden (and you're supposed to take away years or add years based on the Planet and the aspect made) do you use partile or platic aspects? Or Whole Sign aspects? Is the orb 3°, 12° the Planet's orb or the Moeity orb? Do separating aspects count (and I'm not clear with Whole Sign aspects if that includes separating aspects)?

I've been looking at the various methods against charts and I keep coming back to Ptolemy's method, in part because it requires the least amount of judgments, and every time you have to make a decision you're prone to error, so this point his method is most consistent.

I have no problem doing calculations,as long as I'm sure it's the right method and I know the steps.Examples are very helpful,so thank you for this.

The thing about technololgy is it dumbs people down. We used to calculate charts by hand using the stubby pencil method armed with tables of logarithms and an ephemeris and calculate the 10" wobble and the meridian distance and interpolate the House Cusps and Planet positions. When I finally bought a software program about 14 years ago, I was surprised my math was only off by 0'-15' of arc for House Cusps and Planets.

If you understand the concepts of spherical geometry, the math isn't hard, it's just tedious. You don't really need to know spherical trigonometry (although that helps and then you can calculate your own Right Ascension and Oblique Ascension tables for your Latitude).

I always thought that the Hyleg can only be the Sun and Moon,according to their placement and dignity,and if none of them qualifies,we take either the Ascendant or the Part of Fortune based on whether it's a day or night chart.Having any planet,especially Mars and Saturn as the Hyleg is a new concept and I'm going to test it and see if it works.

I thought the same thing as well, because that's what the later Medieval texts and some of the early Medieval texts say (and some of those say a Planet that is Hyleg candidate has to have a least one Dignity in all three points).

Actually, I should just take Chaffee's chart and go through each method to see how accurate they are. I'll post those here periodically when I have time.

That's true,I have a big interest in death in general,and crime as well,it's a very fascinating subject,so I try to dig as deep as I can just in case I find an accurate connection.

I'm into Forensic Astrology and read a lot of homicide charts. Those are really interesting, and I've been using Mid-Points with those and they have shown to be incredibly accurate in describing certain facets of the crime, such as motive and other factors related to causal events. Even more importantly, Mid-Points verify the manner of death or narrow it down.

Lost_spirit
05-19-2011, 09:53 PM
The funny thing is,I'm greek,but I learned astrology through english texts and sources.I'm not even sure I know the greek words astrologers would use to describe the hyleg,or other astrological terms.It's a shame.I guess it's easier to find information in the web in english than any other language.

It's always better to stick to your prefferable method of judging charts if it works for you.There are so many different methods and theories,as well as basic differences between modern and traditional astrology,that it's impossible to borrow elements from all these and combine them having accurate results.If you do that you'll only get more confused.That's why I have to test most of the things I read.

There's actually an online tool I found that calculates the right ascension and oblique ascension for any longitude,given the birth year and latitude.

Midpoints are interesting too,but I haven't used them so far.Maybe I'll give them a try.

BobZemco
05-21-2011, 08:17 PM
The math for this isn't really hard, it's just tedious. This works only for Ascendant/Descendant. For Primary Directions to the MC, it's different math (but easier) since you're working mostly with Right Ascension. Planet to Planet aspects is not too much more complicated, but different still.

There are only 5 terms you need to know (and the abbreviations I use so I don't have to type/write so much):

1] Ascensional Difference (AD): difference between the Right Ascension (RA) and Oblique Ascension (OA).

2] Semi-Arc (SA): the Ascensional Difference (AD) +/- 90° it is added if Declination is North, but subtracted if Declination is South (and I hope people living in the Southern Hemisphere understand that is reversed and why).

3] Meridian Distance (MD): is the difference between the Right Ascension of the Midheaven (RAMC) and the Right Ascension of the Nadir (RAIC) and the Planet's Right Ascension.

4] Arc of Direction: the difference between the Semi-Arc (SA and the Meridian Distance (MD).

5] Equatorial Time: Proportion of Distance traveled. Simply divide by 12

Going back to this Chart, we'll use Ptolemy's method to calculate the base Life-Span:

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=19048&stc=1&d=1305771655


The Lot of Fortune is Hyleg, and we want to move it to the Descendant.

First, find the Ascensional Difference (AD):

AD(Fortuna) = RA(Fortuna) - OA (Fortuna)

The Birth Latitude is 42°N57' and I should really interpolate that, but I'm too lazy right now, so I'm just going to use tables for 43*°N. My tables are to the nearest 10' of arc and I should interpolate that as well, but I just want to show the gist of the math.

The Lot of Fortune is at 12*°Can35' which is 102°35' in Celestial Longitude and at this point I'll simply say that all Longitudes are converted to Celestial Longitude. For example, the Descendant is 9° Gem38' and Gemini is the 3rd Sign (Aries is 1st, Taurus 2nd etc) so:

Gemini 3rd Sign - 1 = 2 * 30° = 60° + 9°38' = 69°38'

Virgo 6th Sign - 1 = 5 * 30° = 150° = 28°36' = 178°38'

So there is the Midheaven converted to Celestial Longitude and that is how you convert to Celestial Longitude for an Planet or Chart Point.

From the tables then:

AD(Fortuna) = 103°35' - 80°27' = 23.13°

The Lot of Fortune always has the same Ecliptic Latitude as the Moon, which +0(N) in this chart, so we add 90**°:

Semi-Arc (SAFortuna) = AD + 90*° = 23.13° + 90° = 113.13°

Meridian Distance (Fortuna) = RAMC - RAFortuna

MD = 178°44' - 103°35' = 75.15°

Arc of Direction = SA (Fortuna) - MD (Fortuna) = 113.13° - 75.15° = 37.98°

So, the base Life-Span is 37.98° or 37 years and 12 months or so.

Now we will add or subtract the Rays of the Malefics and Benefics to get the actual Life-Span. This is exactly as I told you in the previous posts, but now we're going to do the math.

We want the Benefic Venus to cast her life saving Rays and Light on the Descendant from her trine. Venus will trine the Descendant at 9° Aquarius and that's where we want to move her.

So we start the process all over again. Don't be intimated. It's just like home-work, you do it repeatedly until you gain confidence in your calculations (but always go slowly and check for mistakes).

AD(Venus) = RA(Venus) - OA(Venus) = 347°44' - 352°40' = -4.93°

The Ecliptic Latitude of Venus is -1°(S) and when you subtract a negative number the negative signs cancel out and you actually add, so:

SA(Venus) = 90° - (-4.93°) = 94.93°

MD(Venus) = RAIC - RA(Venus) = 358°56' - 352°40' = 6.18°

Arc of Direction (Venus) = SA(Venus) - MD(Venus) = 94.93° - 6.18°

Now, before we actually do this, we need to understand the Celestial Mechanics. We are not moving Venus to the Ascendant, rather we are moving Venus to a point along the arc.

We need to find the proportion of the arc that Venus will travel. The total number of degrees between the Ascendant and the Nadir (Imum Coeli) is 97° and we are moving Venus 37° to 9° Aquarius.

37° / 97° = 0.38 so first we must multiply SA(Venus) by 0.38

0.38 * 94.93° = 36.07° and now we can complete the equation:

Arc of Direction = 36.07° - 6.18° = 29.89°

And now we convert to Equatorial Time:

29.89° / 12 = 2.49°

And this we add to the base Life-Span:

37.98° + 2.49° = 40.47° or about 40 years and 3 months

Now we bring Saturn to the opposition of the Descendant.

AD(Saturn) = RA(Saturn) - OA (Saturn) = 332°05' - 343°00' = -11.91°

Saturn's Ecliptic Latitude is -1°(S) so again subtracting a negative we add:

SA(Saturn) = 90° - (-11.91°) = 101.91°

MD(Saturn) = RAIC - RA(Saturn) = 358°56' - 332°05' = 26.85°

Arc of Direction = SA(Saturn) - MD(Saturn) = 101.91° - 26.85° = 75.07°

Equatorial Time = 75.07° / 12 = 6.26°

Saturn has just taken a little over 6 years off of his life span:

40.47° - 6.26° = 34.21° or about 34 years and 2 months.

Now we bring Mars to the square of the Descendant.

AD(Mars) = RA(Mars) - OA(Mars) = 201°54' - 210°36' = -8.7°

The Ecliptic Latitude of Mars is +2°(N) so we add 90°

SA(Mars) = 90° + (-8.7°) = 81.3°

Mars is in Quadrant I:

MD(Mars) = RA(Mars) - RAMC = 201°54' - 178°44' = 23.17°

Once again, Mars is not moving the entire arc, just a portion of it. Mars has already traveled 37° or a little over 1/3 of the way to the Midheaven, so he has to travel 63° or about 2/3 of the way to get there.

90° - 37° = 53° / 90° = 0.59

Arc of Direction = (81.3 * .59) - 23.17° = 24.79°

Equatorial Time: 24.79° / 12 = 2.06°


34.21° - 2.06° = 32.15 or about 32 years and 1 month.

Now Jupiter.

AD(Jupiter) = RA(Jupiter) - OA(Jupiter) = 230°06' - 248°10' = -18.07°

Jupiter's Ecliptic Latitude is +1°(N) so:

SA(Jupiter) = 90° + (-18.07°) = 71.93°

MD(Jupiter) = RA(Jupiter) - RAMC = 230°06' - 178°44' = 51.37°

Again, Jupiter isn't going the distance, he's just moving to 9° Libra to cast a life saving trine to the Descendant.

That is 30° Jupiter doesn't have to travel, and he's already traveled 17° for a total of 47° the whole distance is 90° so

90° - 47° = 43° / 90° = 0.47

Arc of Direction = (71.93 * 0.47) - 51.37° = 33.8° - 51.37° = -17.57

Equatorial Time: -17.57 / 12 = -1.46

Ooopps!

Yeah, that.

But we already knew that. Look where Jupiter is. Jupiter is in the 12th House. I call it the Anti-House.

Here's what Ptolemy says, lest anyone be confused:

...hence the sign which precedes the ascendant, and constitutes the twelfth house (called that of the Evil Demon), is incompetent; and not only for the above reason, but also because it is cadent, and because the beams cast by the stars posited therein, towards the earth, are impaired by the thick and dark exhalations arising from the earth's vapours, which produce an unnatural colour and magnitude in the appearance of stars so posited, confusing, and in some measure annihilating, their beams.

Jupiter is trapped in the 12th House, Cadent, inconjunct the Ascendant and Descendant, Slow in Motion, totally Out of Sect being a Day Planet that is Nocturnal, in a Feminine Sign and House, Peregrine in the Sign of Scorpio and in the Term of an afflicted Mercury.

In spite of Jupiter's most heroic efforts, Jupiter cannot cast his life saving rays on the Descendant to save the Native.

Jupiter is the Great Preserver, he will not kill, but he cannot save in this instance.

32.15 is where we are.

Lieutenant Commander Roger Chaffee died on board an Apollo space module on the launch pad on January 27, 1967, just 19 days before his 32nd Birthday.

That's the process for a Hyleg that is in Quadrant II, the Occidental Quadrant, a Feminine Quadrant. When the Hyleg is in Quadrant I (Oriental and Masculine) you direct the Hyleg counter-clockwise. That's a little more difficult because it requires more judgments, and you have to pay careful attention to everything that is happening in the chart.

For example, suppose the Moon were Hyleg in the 10th House, we would direct it counter-clockwise and naturally we would be interested in the time when Moon comes to Mars. Mars is in the Term of Mars, and no Planet casts its benefic rays there, so we might conclude that would be death as well. However, Sun trines Mars, so we would have to weigh the condition of the Sun to see if it would mean death, and being that Sun is conjunct Mercury, that would probably be the case. But if Mars were in the Term of Venus or Jupiter, or if Venus or Jupiter aspect Mars or the Term, then we might conclude an unfortunate incident, maybe even a life threatening accident or illness, but not death. And you also look at Primary Directions to see if Jupiter or Venus were in aspect with that point, because they can save then, too. As you can see, it's a little more difficult here than when the Hyleg is in Quadrant II.

Also note that had I been more precise in the calculations, I would have gotten a much closer date of death.

Lost_spirit
05-22-2011, 02:06 PM
Thank you very much Bob!The procedure is not so hard,it just requires understanding of the basic terms,a calculator and maybe some common sense.
I have some questions though:

1.How do we find the ecliptic latitude of a point/planet(whether it's positive or negative)?

2.In the chart you used as an example,the hyleg is the P. of fortune which is in the 8th house.Does that mean that if the moon or sun doesn't qualify as hyleg we take the next available point even if it's in a non hylegical place?

3.Why do we direct the benefics and malefics to the Descendant?Why not to the P.of Fortune?Or even more simple,why don't we direct the P.of Fortune to the rays of the malefics and benefics till it reaches the Descendant,and add or subtract according to the influences?(at this point I understand that's the way Ptolemy does this,but I still find it strange.The Descendant is just the expiring point for this hyleg.)

4.If the Hyleg is in Quadrant I do we direct only the Hyleg to malefics and their rays and using common sense and seeing the planetary configurations try to figure out if it means death or just a dangerous time?Or do we direct the benefics and malefics to it again like the method you describe?

5.Again,when the Hyleg is in quadrant I,do the minor aspects count(sextiles,semisquares etc)?

6.In my chart,what's the Hyleg?I was thinking the moon since it's in the 11th and has some dignity as the sign ruler and it's a night chart.But I could be wrong.

BobZemco
05-22-2011, 11:49 PM
1.How do we find the ecliptic latitude of a point/planet(whether it's positive or negative)?

Sometimes it's listed in an ephemeris. Usually more advanced software will also show it. It's also known simply as Latitude, but I find that some people get confused with Declination, which is not the same thing.

The Latitude is based on the Plane of the Ecliptic. That is a plane extending from the Sun's Equator. All Planets, except Pluto, rest on, above or below the Planet of the Ecliptic and some traverse across the plane over the natural course of time.

Obviously, the Sun's Latitude is always 0°. The other Planets will be North or South of the Plane of the Ecliptic by about 1°-2° and it's usually expressed as (+) or (-) with (+) being North.

Pluto is usually about 15° from the Plane of the Ecliptic but it varies.

The Lot of Fortune always has the same Latitude and Declination as the Moon.

2.In the chart you used as an example,the hyleg is the P. of fortune which is in the 8th house.Does that mean that if the moon or sun doesn't qualify as hyleg we take the next available point even if it's in a non hylegical place?

In older texts, you will see constant references to "horoscope." In modern parlance, that is the Ascendant (ie Horoscope = Ascendant).

The Lot of Fortune is the "Lunar Horoscope." That is the phrase you'll see in texts. In other words the Lot of Fortune is a Lunar Ascendant. So, the Sun is to the Ascendant, as the Moon is to the Lot of Fortune.

For that reason, we can use the Lot of Fortune regardless of its House position, because it is the Lunar Ascendant. Some of the Hellenistic group actually put the Lot of Fortune as the Ascendant and read the chart from there. In theory that would tell you things related to the Lot of Fortune.

For a Day Chart, the order is:

Sun
Moon
Planet
Ascendant

For a Night Chart, it is:

Moon
Sun
Planet
Lot of Fortune

In a Night Chart you would look first to the Moon. If Moon was in the 8th or 12th House, then you look to the Sun. The Sun can be Hyleg in a Night Chart if the Sun is in the 2nd House; and in the same Sign as the Ascendant; and within 25° of the Ascending Degree; but if Sun did not qualify, then you would seek a Hyleg Planet, and if not qualified, then you would automatically take the Lot of Fortune, and it doesn't matter where the Lot of Fortune would be.

In a Day Chart you would look at the Sun first, and if the Sun was in the 8th or 12th House, then look to the Moon. If the Moon did not qualify then look at the Hyleg Planet. If none qualified, then the Ascendant is automatically the Hyleg.

If you have two or more candidates, then choose the one in the best House. Suppose Sun in 1st House and Moon in 10th House, then choose the Moon because the 10th House is more powerful than the 1st House. If Sun was in the 1st House and Moon in the 9th House, then choose the Sun, because the 1st House is more powerful than the 9th House.

See if you can find the Hyleg in this chart (it's not easy):

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=19158&stc=1&d=1306105547


3.Why do we direct the benefics and malefics to the Descendant?

There are places in the Chart that kill.

The Ascendant, Descendant and Nadir (Imum Coeli -- often the 4th House Cusp in a quadrant based House System) are three such places.

The Ascendant kills if the Moon comes to the Ascendant.

The Descendant is like a party. Everyone is going to the party. Some people are going to the party to have a good time, while others are going to the party to crash the party and cause trouble.

In the first chart, everyone gets to the party except Jupiter. He has too far to travel, and he's in bad shape, and by the time he gets there, the party is over.

Why not to the P.of Fortune?Or even more simple,why don't we direct the P.of Fortune to the rays of the malefics and benefics till it reaches the Descendant,and add or subtract according to the influences?(at this point I understand that's the way Ptolemy does this,but I still find it strange.The Descendant is just the expiring point for this hyleg.)

I don't really know why it's done that way, other than the Descendant is a death point. Ptolemy wasn't the only one, in fact he is quoting someone else. I think it was Rhetorius who also did it the same way. Part of it has to do with being in the Occidental Quadrant (Quadrant II).

He also says that a sextile or trine from a Malefic, if the Malefic is in a Sign of Equal Power, or in a Sign that Beholds or Obeys the Sign of the Hyleg.

4.If the Hyleg is in Quadrant I do we direct only the Hyleg to malefics and their rays and using common sense and seeing the planetary configurations try to figure out if it means death or just a dangerous time?Or do we direct the benefics and malefics to it again like the method you describe?

You direct the Hyleg just as you said. Consider a chart where the Ascendant is Hyleg. It is the Nadir that kills here. Ever wonder why people live to be in their 90s and 100s? That's one reason why.

If the MC is in the 11th House, then the IC is in the 5th House, and you're moving the Ascendant by direction to the IC, and if those are Signs of Long Ascension, well, that's a very long time. And if the Ascendant is protected by the rays of the Benefics, then those people might get injured or become ill, but they don't die, and they'll live until until the Ascendant comes to the Nadir. So it's no wonder people live to have 98 or 103 years.

5.Again,when the Hyleg is in quadrant I,do the minor aspects count(sextiles,semisquares etc)?

No, Traditional Astrology doesn't use them.

6.In my chart,what's the Hyleg?I was thinking the moon since it's in the 11th and has some dignity as the sign ruler and it's a night chart.But I could be wrong.

I don't know. I haven't seen your chart.

BobZemco
05-23-2011, 12:05 AM
6.In my chart,what's the Hyleg?I was thinking the moon since it's in the 11th and has some dignity as the sign ruler and it's a night chart.But I could be wrong.

Never mind, it's the Lot of Fortune (most likely).

It's possible Venus could be they Hyleg. I dare say Venus doesn't have at least 3 dignities in the Moon or Lot of Fortune, but it might be possible Venus has at least 3 dignities in your pre-Natal Full Moon. You'd have to find where it is in your chart.

If Venus isn't one of these three: Sign Ruler, Exaltation Ruler, Triplicity Ruler, Term Ruler or in aspect with the pre-Natal Full Moon, then the Lot of Fortune is the Hyleg.

Moon cannot be Hyleg, because Leo is the Ascending Degree, and Cancer is inconjunct Leo so that rules out the Moon.

You would direct the Lot of Fortune counter-clockwise toward the Descendant.

Your Lot of Fortune already passed the IC. The IC is in the Term of Venus, a Benefic. As a child you might have had an illness or accident in the worse case scenario.

I'd be looking at Saturn moving to Aquarius to square the Lot of Fortune, or Lot of Fortune to Aquarius to the square of Saturn, since that would be in the Term of Saturn as well. Jupiter is in Sagittarius and rules the 8th House but he does cast his sextile on to the Term of Saturn and Jupiter is Angular (and in his own House) so he might help.

Those are the kinds of things you look for.

Lost_spirit
05-23-2011, 09:34 AM
First of all thanks for the answers,things are more clear now


See if you can find the Hyleg in this chart (it's not easy):

Ok,I understand that the Sun can't be the hyleg,since you say that planets inconjunct the Ascendant can't be hyleg and gemini is inconjunct scorpio.

Now let's look at a planet that has at least 3 dignities in the Sun,prenatal new moon and Ascendant(since it's a day chart).
Venus is significant here,both sign ruler and triplicity ruler of the prenatal new moon but nothing more.That's 2 dignities so far,not 3,so Venus can't be considered a hyleg yet.
Now to the Sun.Mercury is sign ruler and term ruler,unless we take into account all 3 triplicity rulers,so it's also a triplicity ruler.In this case Mercury may be the hyleg,but it's also inconjunct the Ascendant and almost in the 8th,so I guess not.
For the Ascendant,Mars is the sign ruler and triplicity ruler.But I see that Venus is the term ruler,and it already has some dignities in the prenatal new moon,so Venus can be the hyleg(am I doing it right?).Venus seems to be in the 8th,but seeing that in the previous case you used whole signs,that puts her in the 9th.

I hesitate to use Mercury since it's in a so tight inconjunction to the Asc.I would say Venus is probably the hyleg,if I'm right in my previous judgements.If not,the Ascendant is the only one left.

Lost_spirit
05-23-2011, 09:57 AM
Never mind, it's the Lot of Fortune (most likely).

It's possible Venus could be they Hyleg. I dare say Venus doesn't have at least 3 dignities in the Moon or Lot of Fortune, but it might be possible Venus has at least 3 dignities in your pre-Natal Full Moon. You'd have to find where it is in your chart.

If Venus isn't one of these three: Sign Ruler, Exaltation Ruler, Triplicity Ruler, Term Ruler or in aspect with the pre-Natal Full Moon, then the Lot of Fortune is the Hyleg.


My prenatal full moon is at 28 Pisces and Venus is the exaltation ruler.Personally,I see Mars having more dignities in all 3 points than Venus(Sign and triplicity ruler in P.of Fortune,triplicity ruler of all 3 points).But it may not be enough.


Your Lot of Fortune already passed the IC. The IC is in the Term of Venus, a Benefic. As a child you might have had an illness or accident in the worse case scenario.


Now this explains why I sometimes feel a little dead inside!
I've been very lucky considering accidents and illnesses and the worst I received is a small scar above my eyebrow from hitting my head on a stone stair as a toddler and needing stiches.I almost drowned twice as a child,the first time someone moved me safely out of the sea,the second time I reached to the surface on my own.And,as a baby,I fell off the kitchen counter once(where the hell were my parents??). Of course none of these cases was considered serious,and it's funny to even mention them.

BobZemco
05-23-2011, 09:10 PM
My prenatal full moon is at 28 Pisces and Venus is the exaltation ruler.Personally,I see Mars having more dignities in all 3 points than Venus(Sign and triplicity ruler in P.of Fortune,triplicity ruler of all 3 points).But it may not be enough.

Don't forget being in aspect is one of the dignities. On the other chart, Venus is in an applying sextile to the pre-Natal Full Moon, which would give Venus 3 dignities and make Venus the Hyleg in the 9th House for that chart.

Mars is in Virgo, inconjunct to Leo, so it would fall to the Lot of Fortune in your Chart. If Mars was still in Leo, then Mars would get another dignity point because he is in an applying trine to the Lot of Fortune.

Now this explains why I sometimes feel a little dead inside! I've been very lucky considering accidents and illnesses and the worst I received is a small scar above my eyebrow from hitting my head on a stone stair as a toddler and needing stiches.I almost drowned twice as a child,the first time someone moved me safely out of the sea,the second time I reached to the surface on my own.And,as a baby,I fell off the kitchen counter once(where the hell were my parents??). Of course none of these cases was considered serious,and it's funny to even mention them.

Well, Scorpio is a Water Sign. You would take signification from that in part, especially with Mars ruling the Lot of Fortune and being in the Ascendant which represents your overall health in part. I'm not saying that is it, just that's how you would interpret those Primary Directions.

I don't want to give the wrong idea, you also direct the Lot of Fortune clockwise in the chart as well. The Lot of Fortune is blind dumb luck, and it's ruler is Angular and aspects by trine, so you do have some good luck, but the Hyleg also represents your life as well.

If you direct the Hyleg to the MC, you use Right Ascension. I don't have your chart right. I suspect your west of Athens (east of Athens would be like Drama or Drame I can't remember the name of the town it was years ago I was there). So the RAMC is 47°58' and the RA (Lot of Fortune) is 217°00'.

It's just Arc of Direction = RA (Lot of Fortune) - RAMC = 217° - 47° = 170° or 170 years. I don't want to be a downer, but I don't think you'll live to be 170 years old.

The trine to the Lot of Fortune would be 10° Cancer and that would be 217° - 100°53' = still outside your range.

The square would be 217° - 132°27' = 85° or 85 years something to do with your MC/Lot of Fortune/Hyleg would happen then.

The trine would be 217° - 161°32' = 56° and some minutes so about age 56 something positive will happen with the MC/Lot of Fortune/Hyleg direction. Be in your 2nd House, probably has to do with money, wealth or possessions.

As you can see, Primary Directions with the Midheaven are easy, you just have to know the Right Ascension for the Latitude in your natal chart. You have a lot of contacts going clockwise and counter-clockwise. Your Midheaven is not just your career, it's your status in your community, recognition and rewards you earn and things like that and sometimes it can affect your wealth.

Lost_spirit
05-23-2011, 10:39 PM
Oh of course,my birth latitude is 40N38,22E58.It's not in Athens,it's a city north of it.But yeah,the Right Ascensions are pretty much the same +-1 degrees maybe.

Actually,it seems a lot easier to direct to the MC,than the previous technique,the whole subtracting and adding years thing.Probably more easy than I thought.

So you directed my Lot of Fortune clockwise to aspects to it.Right?In the same way we direct it clockwise to aspects of planets?For example,the square of the moon is at 22 Libra=202,then I find the RA of this point and subtract it from the Lot of Fortune's RA to find the arc?

Bob,you've been so helpful,I thought I'd never be able to understand this stuff.I can't put into words how grateful I am to you.

BobZemco
05-26-2011, 12:29 AM
Here's another you can look at, that uses the Hyleg from Quadrant I.

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=19240&stc=1&d=1306361655

This is Kurt Cobain who shot himself in the head with a shot gun -- I guess he wanted to be sure (and no, sorry folks, there's no Sun/Pluto conjunction here --- too bad, so sad).

This is a Night Chart, so for the Hyleg you look at:

1) Hyleg Planets
2) Moon
3) Sun
4) Lot of Fortune

The pre-Natal Full Moon occurs at 29° Leo.

There are three Planets as candidates for the Hyleg, Venus, Jupiter and Saturn. We can rule out Venus because Venus has no dignity in the Moon, Venus is the Sign Ruler and Triplicity Ruler of the Lot of Fortune, but doesn't aspect the Lot, and Venus has no dignity in the pre-Natal Full Moon.

Jupiter is the Exaltation Ruler of Moon, but has no other dignity and even though Moon is applying to Retrograde Jupiter, if we use the Moon's Orb of 12° it is out-of-Orb. Jupiter is the Night Fire Ruler so rules the Triplicity of the pre-Natal Full Moon but has no other dignity.

Saturn has no dignities in the Moon, pre-Natal Full Moon, or Lot of Fortune, so he cannot be Hyleg.

That leaves it to the Moon and Lot of Fortune. The Lot is in the 8th House, but the 9th Sign, and likewise Moon is in the 10th House but 11th Sign, and that's what we go by. The 11th House is superior in strength to the 9th House, so the Moon is the Hyleg in this chart.

Now, how do you figure out where to direct the Moon?

Interpreting the chart a bit helps. Normally we start with the Parents, Siblings, then Physical Appearance, then Intellect & Emotion, and that's where we'll start. Mercury is the general Significator of Intellect, and Moon the general Significator of Emotion. Immediately, you see Mercury ruling the Ascendant and Midheaven in Detriment in Pisces, plus Moon in an applying trine, and Moon is elevated by House position above Mercury. That means his Emotions rule everything. He is not one to make decisions based on rational thinking. There's no reasoning with him. That's reinforced by the fact that the Moon is in an Azieme Degree, and the Almuten of Intellect & Emotion is Jupiter, having the most dignities in Mercury and the Moon, and Jupiter is also the Sign Ruler of Mercury and the Exaltation Ruler of Moon, and Jupiter is in a Pitted Degree. Note that Moon is also in the Term and Decan of Mercury.

In other words, he's a nutter; an emotional basket case.

Mercury is conjunct the Descendant, which is a Killing Point in the chart and that's where you direct Moon, to the square of Mars. Note that Moon and Mercury are also Planetary Enemies: they hate each other.

So we're looking at a totality of things here; Mercury rules Ascendant and Midheaven, is conjunct the Descendant (ie opposes the Ascendant), Mercury in Detriment, Moon trine Mercury and Moon Azieme to choose a point.

Why wouldn't we look at Moon directed clock-wise to the square of Saturn or Venus? Actually we would, because those would have been significant events in his life at an early age, probably early teens just eyeballing the chart, but they aren't enough for death.

Why?

Venus extends her Rays to cover Saturn (Venus/Saturn are conjunct) and also there's no Reception between the Moon/Venus/Saturn aspects.

You could direct Moon counter-clockwise to the square of Mars. Mars is Diurnal here, very Malefic? No. Mars is within 12° of the South Node which decreases the malice of Mars, plus Sun is in partile trine to Mars, which further decreases his malice, and Mars is in his own Sign, Triplicity, Term and Decan. Still, it was probably another negative event in his life, but not enough to kill.

So, how do we do this?

Moon directed to the square of Mercury occurs at an Ecliptic Point, 18° Gem 27' and that's where we want to move the Moon.

We need to find the Ascensional Difference (AD) of the Ecliptic Point we're interested in:

AD(EP) = RA(EP) - OA(EP)

His birth Latitude is 46°N58' so I'm going to use tables for 47° listed at 10' of arc, and I'm too lazy to interpolate, so that will impinge on accuracy a wee bit. 18° Gem 27' is the same thing as 78°27' of Celestial Longitude.

AD (EP) = 77°19' - 50°21' = 26.96°

The Ecliptic Latitude is always the same as the point you're using, and Moon is North

Semi-Arc(SAEP) = 90° + AD(EP) = 90° + 26.96° = 116.96°

Meridian Distance:

MD(EP) = RAMC/IC - RA(EP) = 76°33' - 77°19' = - 0.76° or 0.76°

Remember, the Meridian Distance is the distance in Right Ascension from the Meridian (either the Midheaven or the Nadir) to the Planet. The square takes place at 18° Gem almost conjunct the Midheaven, so the Meridian Distance will be very small, right? That's one thing you can do to check your math and make sure your calculations are accurate.

Now I will introduce two new concepts, Temporal Hours and Hourly Distance.

We're looking at the speed of the Planets and Ecliptic Points, but not the actual speed of the Planets, rather the speed of the Earth as it rotates from day to night to day to night.

So, if you were standing on Earth at Latitude 48° staring at 19° Gemini you would see it move to the Moon, not the Moon moving to 19° Gemini. It only appears the Moon is moving, but in reality is is Earth that is moving.

I probably mucked that up, but that's the best way I know how to explain what is actually happening, and we're going to calculate the speed of that.

Temporal Hours(TH) = Semi-Arc / 6

Why? Because the Earth is 24 hours (more or less depending on how many Magnitude 8+ earthquakes have happened). So from the Midheaven to the Nadir is 12 hours, and from the Nadir to the Midheaven is 12 hours, and from the Midheaven to the Descendant is 6 hours and from the Descendant to the Nadir is 6 hours and from the Nadir to the Ascendant is 6 hours and you know the rest of the story, which is that each House more or less represents about 2 hours of time.

TH(EP) = SA(EP) / 6 = 116.96 / 6 = 19.49°

Hourly Distance (HD):

HD(EP) = Meridian Distance (EP) / Temporal Hours (TH(EP))

HD(EP) = 0.76° / 19.49° = 0.038°

Again, that should be obvious because the Ecliptic Point (18° Gem) is very very close to the Midheaven, it is conjunct the Midheaven basically.

It's the Moon's time now. I'm going to cheat a little and skip some of the math for brevity's sake:

SA(Moon) = 123.55°
MD(Moon) = 28.3°

Now we need the Moon's Temporal Hours and Hourly Distance:

TH(Moon) = SA(Moon) / 6 = 123.55° / 6 = 20.59°

HD(Moon) = MD(Moon) / TH(Moon) = 28.3° / 20.59° = 1.37°

Putting it all together:

Arc of Direction = (HD(Moon) - HD(EP)) * TH(Moon)

What we are doing is very simply taking the difference between the Moon's Hourly Distance and the Ecliptic Points Hourly Distance, and then we are going to multiply that difference by the speed of the Moon (as it appears from Earth).

Do you know the formula:

Speed = Distance / Time

Speed = 50 km / 1 hour = 50 k/h or 50 kph (50 kilometers per hour)

See? We're doing about the same thing.

Arc of Direction = (HD(Moon) - HD(EP)) * TH(Moon)

Arc of Direction = (1.37° - 0.038°) * 20.59° = 1.33° * 20.59° = 27.38°

You would judge his Life Span to be 27 years.

He died April 5, 1994 at age 27 years 1 month and 15 days or so.

My calculations came to 27 years 4 months, but I didn't interpolate the the degrees from the tables, and used the next degrees up, so it should be slightly over.

I wouldn't get hung up on predicting the exact date of death. The whole purpose was to determine the Native's Life Span, not the actual date of death. And the reason was that there's no point in calculating and interpreting Profections and Solar Returns for someone in their 28th, 35th, 42nd, 48th, 56th, 63rd or 70th year of life if they were going to die at age 27. I mean it's a waste of time and energy, not to mention you would look pathetic telling someone they'll marry at age 34 and have a child at age 36 when in fact they'd already be dead for 7 years by that time. It's not a good way to gain clients.

These calculations would work for Moon square Saturn, Moon square Venus, Moon square Mars and Moon conjunct Jupiter. The only difference between the squares of Venus, Mars and Saturn and that of Jupiter is that you would use Jupiter's actual degree since it would be a conjunction.

Those are all in the same Quadrant. If you were looking at Planets or Points in Quadrants II, III or IV, you would use a slightly different formula:

Arc of Direction = [HD(Planet) + HD(Planet or Point)] * TH(Planet)

The reason you add instead of subtract is to account for the distance in the other Quadrant.

bardevolved
05-26-2011, 07:01 AM
Hi,

luminaries afflicted in house 8th which is also the house of re-generation or longivity.....i dont know but i have a whole bunch of planets in 8th house : Jupiter, saturn, SUN,pluto,mercury and moon is in 7th house.

Will they cause violent death ?

Lost_spirit
05-26-2011, 09:29 AM
Wow.Here it gets a little more complicated than the rest,but I'm going to be ok!So far you showed me 3 methods
1.When the hyleg is in quadrant II we direct it to the descendant and then subtract or add according to the aspects made by malefics and benefics.
2.Directing by right Ascension to the MC.
3.Directing by using Temporal Hours and Hourly distance.
The proceedure and calculations are totally understood,as well as the 1st method.What I don't understand is when do we direct by Right Ascension and when do we also involve the Temporal Hour?

What is interesting here is that this method works for suicides.I thought that suicide is someone's desicion,so it couldn't be predicted,but I guess it can.

Another interesting thing is that Mercury can also kill.But hey,suicide sounds like a "mercurian" death(even though the way he died is totally a Mars/Aries method,gunshot to the head),but it fits into the "Mercury can cause death by madness" thing.In the chart of Eric Harris(one of the columbine killers), who also commited suicide by a gunshot to the head, the ruler of the Part of Death is Mars in Aries(Aries=head,and a violent sign) and his 4th sect triplicity ruler and 8th ruler are both Mercury in Aries as well.How more representative can this get?

It's surprizing that he survived the Hyleg directions to Mars and Saturn,but no wonder his will to live was already affected after this.

He was one of my favorite artists by the way.Too bad.

Lost_spirit
05-26-2011, 09:50 AM
Hi,

luminaries afflicted in house 8th which is also the house of re-generation or longivity.....i dont know but i have a whole bunch of planets in 8th house : Jupiter, saturn, SUN,pluto,mercury and moon is in 7th house.

Will they cause violent death ?

Well,like I said in my 1st post,planets in the 8th house not necessarily indicate violent death.AND I would never predict death (let alone a violent one) for anyone in here anyway,except for myself maybe.What I'm doing is looking at people's chart who already died and gathering information to find connections.I understand you may feel ready to find out about your death,but this information can be bad for some people and lead to dissapointment,depression etc.

bardevolved
05-26-2011, 06:26 PM
Hi,

It will not cause any disappointment to me as i almost every day die some kind of death and i will be excited to know when the real death of the body will take place...as i believe no one actually dies as the soul is eternal

BobZemco
05-26-2011, 07:53 PM
Another interesting thing is that Mercury can also kill.But hey,suicide sounds like a "mercurian" death(even though the way he died is totally a Mars/Aries method,gunshot to the head),but it fits into the "Mercury can cause death by madness" thing.In the chart of Eric Harris(one of the columbine killers), who also commited suicide by a gunshot to the head, the ruler of the Part of Death is Mars in Aries(Aries=head,and a violent sign) and his 4th sect triplicity ruler and 8th ruler are both Mercury in Aries as well.How more representative can this get?

It's surprizing that he survived the Hyleg directions to Mars and Saturn,but no wonder his will to live was already affected after this.

Obviously you've got some of the indicators down. Okay, the answer to that is you always look for confirmation in the Profections and Solar Returns. Confirm, confirm and confirm some more.

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=19267&stc=1&d=1306434948

The Natal Chart is a Night Chart, and the 4th House is Sagittarius, which makes the Triplicity Ruler Jupiter (who rules Fire at Night). Here in the Profection Chart you see that Sagittarius has come to the Ascendant, and that makes Jupiter the Year Ruler.

Now, Profections are cyclic; they happen every 12 years, because it's just a repeating cycle. His Profection Cycle would go Gemini, Cancer, Leo..through the Signs back to Gemini, then "Lather, Rinse, Repeat."

So that wasn't the first time his Sagittarius Profection came to be.

You'll notice the Planets in the Profection Chart square all the Planets in the Natal Chart. Of course they do. Planets will be inconjunct, sextile, square, trine, inconjunct then in opposition before repeating the cycle in reverse (inconjunct, trine, square, sextile then inconjunct) before coming back to the Natal Ascendant.

So this was at first glance a trying year for him with all the squares in his Profection Chart, but we all go through that. Obviously, some people have an easier go at it than others. Why is that? You have to look at the condition of the Planets in the Natal Chart, and then look at the Solar Return. Some people have all the Planets in their Natal Chart in excellent condition and their Solar Returns are beautiful and the worst thing that happens to them is they spill their milk on their clothes.

So how is Jupiter in the Natal Chart?

At first glance, beautiful. Jupiter is Exalted in Cancer, in a Succedent House, in the 11th House of the Good Demon, about to receive Moon by Exaltation in a conjunction, in a trine with Perfect Reception to Venus and Saturn in Pisces. The only thing negative about Jupiter is that he is Retrograde.

Sounds great, right?

No. Jupiter is Out-of-Sect. He his a Day Planet in a Night Chart Above Horizon. You should never see Jupiter (or Saturn) Above Horizon in a Night Chart. Not only is Jupiter up in the night sky, he is in a Masculine Planet in an Feminine Sign and Feminine House (the 11th House IS a Masculine House but we count from the Sun who is always the first house -- not the 1st House -- and every other House is Masculine).

Jupiter is not a Benefic in this Chart and Jupiter is totally contrary to what he should be; that is to say Jupiter is not what he appears to be. You've heard the term "Pious Hypocrite" like the reverend who preaches God then goes and has sex with a prostitute, snorts cocaine then molests young boys.

A Planet that is Out-of-Sect (and Saturn is also Out-of-Sect) is corrupted; contrary to its own signification; doing things it should not be doing; doing things that are totally inappropriate.

And the other thing I mentioned is that Jupiter is in a Pitted Degree. That appears in texts also as Welled Degrees (most of the Latin texts as Deep Degrees).

The meaning of a Planet in a Pitted Degree you can figure out from these old sayings:

1) You've made your bed; now you have to lie in it.
2) You dug your own grave
3) You've painted yourself into a corner and now you're trapped
4) You dug yourself into a hole (a pit) and now you can't get out of the hole

Of the Benefics (Venus and Jupiter), Venus can never be Malefic, but Jupiter can. I wouldn't say Jupiter is a Malefic here, he's more like an "Infortune." If Jupiter would be Peregrine, then I would say Jupiter is probably a Malefic in this Chart.

Now that you know that, let's look at his Solar Return:

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=19268&stc=1&d=1306434948

So Jupiter is the Year Ruler of the Profection Chart. Which Sign has come to the Ascendant in the Solar Return?

The 8th Sign/House.

The fact that the Natal 8th House has come to the Ascendant of the Solar Return is not enough to confirm Death.

But look where Jupiter is.

Jupiter is the Profectional Year Ruler, and he is also the Sect Triplicity Ruler of the 4th House in the Natal Chart (a significator of Death) and Jupiter is in the 8th House and at 14° Scorpio, Jupiter is Peregrine.

Now we MUST pay attention to this Chart because we have 3 indicators of Death in addition to our Primary Direction.

What is the condition of Mercury, the Natal Ascendant Ruler in the Solar Return Chart?

Absolutely horrid. Mercury is in Detriment; Mercury is Retrograde; Mercury is Peregrine; Mercury is Cadent; Mercury is in the 12th House; and to top it off, Mercury is Combust the Sun.

A few more things, the Lot of Death in the Solar Return Chart is in Scorpio, the Sun is in the 12th House, it is in aspect with Mercury and not received with Perfect Reception, and that makes Sun an Accidental Malefic, and it also makes Mercury an Accidental Malefic

So, all of those things together are sufficient for us to predict Death.

One other thing I want to point out is Transits. Transits are totally useless. I have to laugh at all the people who fuss and muss over Transits in the Transit sub-forum.

They waste so much time on nothing, and even that wouldn't be so bad, except they can't even interpret the Transits correctly. As you can see from the Transit Chart, there is absolutely nothing happening very slowly. This Chart has ZERO indicators of Death. There aren't even any aspects except for Transiting Jupiter Retrograde separating from Moon.

That's why we don't use Transits. They're worthless and a total waste of time. Everything you need to know, Marriage, Divorce, Child-Birth, Career, Death of Parents, Death of Siblings, Fame, Fortune, Gain of Wealth, Loss of Wealth, Injury, Illness and Death you can get from Primary Directions.


http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=19269&stc=1&d=1306439274

Lost_spirit
05-26-2011, 10:18 PM
That's all very well said and explained,and thank you.However..
One other thing I want to point out is Transits. Transits are totally useless. I have to laugh at all the people who fuss and muss over Transits in the Transit sub-forum.

They waste so much time on nothing, and even that wouldn't be so bad, except they can't even interpret the Transits correctly. As you can see from the Transit Chart, there is absolutely nothing happening very slowly. This Chart has ZERO indicators of Death. There aren't even any aspects except for Transiting Jupiter Retrograde separating from Moon.



...I'm not sure about this.Yes,I agree that transits can't predict death,but when primary directions show death,a heavy transit at that time could help in making the death more extraordinary,if you can use this word for a death.If you include Uranus,Neptune,Pluto,you'll see that transiting Pluto is in an applying square to his Sun.Using wider orbs,Saturn is separating from a conjunction to his Sun.While all these don't point to death necessarily,they act as backgroung influences at the time of death.

Don't get me wrong,I just think that the slow moving planets have a wider orb of influence.The charts I've seen where mostly of young people who were murdered,had an accident or illness,and in the majority of cases Saturn,Uranus,Neptune or Pluto were in an afflicting transit to one or more of their inner planets/points,Asc,Sun,Moon,Venus,Mars,Mercury,with an orb no more than 7 degrees.

Again,I'm not saying these transits predicted their death.I'm just stating some observations.

BobZemco
05-27-2011, 06:36 AM
That's all very well said and explained,and thank you.However..


...I'm not sure about this.Yes,I agree that transits can't predict death,but when primary directions show death,a heavy transit at that time could help in making the death more extraordinary,if you can use this word for a death.If you include Uranus,Neptune,Pluto,you'll see that transiting Pluto is in an applying square to his Sun.Using wider orbs,Saturn is separating from a conjunction to his Sun.While all these don't point to death necessarily,they act as backgroung influences at the time of death.

Don't get me wrong,I just think that the slow moving planets have a wider orb of influence.The charts I've seen where mostly of young people who were murdered,had an accident or illness,and in the majority of cases Saturn,Uranus,Neptune or Pluto were in an afflicting transit to one or more of their inner planets/points,Asc,Sun,Moon,Venus,Mars,Mercury,with an orb no more than 7 degrees.

Again,I'm not saying these transits predicted their death.I'm just stating some observations.

Well, the problem with that is here is what Robert Hand has to say: (from his book Planets in Transit: Life Cycles for Living):

Robert Hand -- Planets in Transit: Life Cycles for Living[/I]]Transiting Pluto sextile Natal Uranus
You will be able to live more richly and fully…The new insights you gain will also bring you the ability to use talents and ingenuity that you may not have known you had…This is a favorable time to embark upon any new study…This is also a favorable period for doing any kind of psychological work.

….trine Natal Saturn
A related effect is tht persons in authority in business or government may give you considerable power to reorganize a structure at some level. You may also become concerned with social reform in various ways.

…trine Natal Venus
This transit emphasizes the creative and romantic aspects of your life. Venus’ ability to bring love and artistic creativity are given great power by the trine from Pluto.

…trine Natal Jupiter
You will be increasingly interested in subjects that encompass a larger view of the world, such as law, religion, philosophy and metaphysics…This is an extremely favorable time for any dealings with law or with persons in authority. Your generosity is great….

…conjunct Natal Neptune
This transit signifies a period of very deep inward transformation that will be reflected in changed ideals, goals and many other aspects of your world view.

Transiting Neptune sextile Natal Neptune
This is a time of new awakening…

….trine Natal Uranus
Your intuition will be enormously heightened at this time…you may become involved in a religious or spiritual movement that works for social reform….

….sextile Natal Saturn
At this time the ideal and the real are well balanced in your life…

….sextile Natal Venus
This transit stimulates your creative imagination and is likely to put you into a very pleasant and dreamy frame of mind, in which you will be capable of great creativity…

Transiting Uranus trine Natal Uranus
At this time you are likely to make significant changes in your life in order to achieve more perfect self-expression.

..sextile Natal Saturn
During this transit you have the opportunity to make creative changes through a system.

…opposition Jupiter
If you have been putting up with a tense and strained situation but not getting any benefit from it, you will break free of the tension now and probably experience an enormous sense of relief.

…sextile Venus
This transit will considerably enliven your social life and relationships.


Imagine if you would be Kurt Cobain's father or mother and you just paid $400 to have the grand-poobah guru himself of Modern Astrology tell you about the upcoming Transits in April for your son.

Everything is beautiful, peachy, wonderful, doves flying birds singing, rainbows, unicorns and ponies, gag me with a spoon.

And then a few days later your son killed himself.

You would probably be saying really nasty mean things about Mr. Hand and astrology.

The only thing Modern Astrology provides that's remotely applicable is:

Uranus opposition Jupiter If you have been putting up with a tense and strained situation but not getting any benefit from it, you will break free of the tension now and probably experience an enormous sense of relief.


I guess he did "break free of the tension" when he painted the walls of his garage with his brains, but I'd have to question whether he experienced "an enormous sense of relief."


That's why I quit Modern Astrology and switched to Traditional. I would like a straight answer from the charts, without a lot of useless fluff talking in circles.


http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=19282&stc=1&d=1306478050

Lost_spirit
05-27-2011, 09:17 AM
Yeah,that transit report looks kind of funny.Creativity,transformation,awakening,and then some more creativity,everything's sooo nice.. These are very generalized.Someone doesn't even need astrology to understand that he was an unhappy man,and sooner or later he would kill himself,if you listen to his songs.His choises also scream that he is self destructive,from his love life to his drug abuse.

..which makes me look like an idiot in many of my previous threads,asking for advice in particular transits.Sometimes I know the answer to my questions,yet I ask cause I want to hear it so bad from someone else.

And that's why I never look at sites that interpret each transit seperately,instead of looking at the big picture.But then again,no site can give you the big picture,you just give your data and get pre-made interpretations.

Well,what can I say,you never stop learning new stuff with astrology.

dperez3894
06-13-2011, 07:01 AM
For anyone not familiar with these indications,you may want to check "Chistian astrology Book 3" or the following article http://www.astrologyedmonton.com/Newsletters/Jan2007.pdf

What I like about these rules is that they are not the usual indication type "malefics afflicting the luminaries" or "malefics in the 8th" that is adopted by many people.

Lilly uses the house rulers,the violent signs and the violent fixed stars as well,which explains why people with no apparent violent configurations in their chart died violently and why others with an afflicted chart had a natural death in old age.

I have tested these rules in some charts,and even though it can't be considered a research,so far it works better than any other theory on this subject.

I'd like to know an expert's opinion on this.If anyone uses these rules,if they work for them and any other consideration on the subject.

Back in Jr. High, one of my classmates was struck and killed by a drunk driver. I recently ran the classmates chart and found;

His progressed Saturn was at 29 Degrees 35 Minutes Taurus and conjunct the Pleiades in the 8th House.

On the day he was killed, Chiron was exactly conjunct his natal sun.

Lost_spirit
06-13-2011, 09:20 PM
Back in Jr. High, one of my classmates was struck and killed by a drunk driver. I recently ran the classmates chart and found;

His progressed Saturn was at 29 Degrees 35 Minutes Taurus and conjunct the Pleiades in the 8th House.

On the day he was killed, Chiron was exactly conjunct his natal sun.

Thank you for your response!It's an interesting observation,but you have to understand that these configurations alone did not cause his death,there must have been something heavier going on at that time,basically by primary directions.Read the above posts by Bobzemco,they are very helpful in understanding Primary Directions.

Claire19
06-15-2011, 05:58 AM
Hi,

luminaries afflicted in house 8th which is also the house of re-generation or longivity.....i dont know but i have a whole bunch of planets in 8th house : Jupiter, saturn, SUN,pluto,mercury and moon is in 7th house.

Will they cause violent death ?

A stellium in the 8th house doesnt portend a violent death unless Mars and Pluto are somehow involved and not always then. Neptune can also herald death as can Uranus. But have to be contacting personal planets. Each chart must be taken by its own merits and potentials.

THe transits will herald violent death only if there is a promise of that in the natal chart. The 12th house is also one for death or passing over. THe 1st for some event in childhood or the immediate environment, the 3rd for whilst travelling in the local area, through a sibling or neighbour. The fourth for death at home or by mother, the 6th through some disease or accident at work. The 7th through or by a partner or a member of the public. THe 9th whilst travelling abroad, The 10th death by your boss, father or other authority figure. The 11th with some kind of computerisation or whilst air travelling for instance. So you see there are many scenarios..

It is easier to see in hindsight what may have caused a violent demise.

LonelyRed
06-16-2011, 10:12 PM
I find this all very interesting as well, considering that death is a subject I haven't considered broaching too deeply, as someone who has more experience in "Modern Astrology," and doesn't know too much about the more traditional stuff. I am just young, and have had only about ten years experiences with being even able to handle Astrology, so I don't have anything against, so-to-speak, other kinds of Astrology, I just have only had most significant exposure to Modern.

With that said, I have a question about Hylegs, since I've just been reading and following along somewhat. This post may get moved, which is fine, I just thought I'd post it here, since BobZemco seems to be very familiar with this term, and his references.

My questions are then, as follows, BobZemco, you mentioned that part of the formula used to deduce when a death can occur, which involved finding the Hyleg, according to I believe Ptolemy or Lilly (or Lilly using Ptolemy), included the pre-natal New Moon. I did some research of my own, admittedly very brief, about Hylegs, and it said the prenatal component could be either the New Moon or Full Moon. As I am reading this, I just want to know what you think of that, is that still what William Lilly says? Does Lilly say anything about what happens when the person is born on the new moon? (Or full moon, if appropriate).

LonelyRed
06-19-2011, 08:13 PM
was my question too off-topic and that was why no one answered?

I wanted to know what to make of a Hyleg if one was born on the Full Moon or New Moon.

BobZemco
08-11-2011, 03:20 AM
I copied these questions from another thread (because there were too many questions to answer in one sitting) and saved it to Word to answer later, but here are some answers to some of the questions (I can no longer find the thread).

When looking at the Profections and Solar Returns, what do you want see? Confirmation of the symbolism.
What makes an astrologer say "this is the year"? A confluence of confirmation.
What is the nature of the testimonies? Depends on the Planets involved.
Did the past astrologers use the same system? Primary Directions. What is this? Is this a modern thing or was this practiced by the ancients? The technique is several thousand years old.

There’s nothing hard about it. Unfortunately, there is no software available, and I would caution you that software that claims to do it is wrong, if not by method then by math. For example, Janus claims to do Primary Directions, but they are FUBAR and totally useless so don’t waste your time. The key is just becoming proficient in the math (which appears daunting but really isn’t), learning the symbolism, knowing the significators and understanding why things work the way they do.

Probably the easiest way to do Primary Directions is to cover them with each of the 14 Judgments or Topics you cover, starting with Life-Span/Longevity. Determine the Almuten for each Topic, read the Chart, then do your Primary Directions. For example, calculate the Almuten of the Father, Almuten of the Mother, then look at their relationship and their relationship with the Ascendant Ruler to see how everyone gets along, then look at your Primary Directions to see what happens to the Native’s parents up to and including Death (and beyond – and yes after they die they can still have Directions in your Chart signifying events, like maybe the wing of a library dedicated in their name, or a memorial or scholarship fund established in their name or something like that).

Here’s a chart with a sad story.


http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=21353&stc=1&d=1313029616



The first thing is find the Hyleg/Hilaj/Releaser or whatever you want to call it. I call it the Life Ruler. There are no Planets Above Horizon and this is a Night Chart so that means the Hyleg/Life Ruler is either the Ascendant or the Lot of Fortune. Since Moon has separated from a conjunction of the Sun and is moving toward the opposition (Full Moon position) that makes this a Conjunctional Chart and the Ascendant is the Hyleg/Life-Ruler. If the Moon would be separating from the opposition to the Sun and moving toward the conjunction (New Moon position), then the Chart would be Preventional and the Lot of Fortune would automatically be the Hyleg/Life Ruler.

So the Ascendant here plays a dual role, it is not only the significator of the Native’s health and things that happen to the Native, but it is also the determiner in the Natives’ Life Span. What we want to do now is use Ascensional Times and Symbolic Directions to narrow down the time frame for any accidents or events that will happen to the Native. The most obvious feature to see symbolically is Ascendant opposition the Lot of Death.

The opposition occurs at 9° Aquarius, but the Ascendant enters the Term of Mercury at 6° Aquarius. Is the Ascendant protected or is it naked? You have a naked Ascendant here. The Planets cast their “rays” in 7 directions. “Rays” is an ancient term that comes to us from the Sumerians. Enuma elish… mentions the Planets ensnaring each other with their “rays” and the oldest known text (partial text on broken tablets) dates back to 5,700 BCE. The 7 “rays” are cast to the sinister sextile, sinister square, sinister trine, opposition, dexter trine, dexter square and dexter sextile.

Note that none are cast in the "conjunction."

None of the Benefics cast their “rays” at 9° Aquarius. Likewise, none of the Malefics do either. However, the Ascendant is in the Term of Mercury, and Mercury, while not Malefic here, is Unfortunate being Peregrine and Retrograde (being Peregrine makes Mercury weak, but being Retrograde makes him Unfortunate and weaker still), and the Term is in opposition to the Lot of Death.

To determine the age of the Native here, we need to know the Oblique Ascension of the Ascendant and of 6° Aquarius. There’s a web-site that will calculate those for any Latitude (you can enter 2000 as the year since the Obliquity of the Ecliptic only change a few Seconds of Arc every so many years – in 1938 the Obliquity was 23° 26' 50" just to give you an idea) .

http://www.antonblog.net/tool/generator.html

If I have any doubts about my calculations, I check my tables against his tables and his tables are spot on.

At 6° Aquarius the Oblique Ascension is 321°38’ and the Ascending Degree is 270°55’ and all we do is subtract them.

321°38’
270°55’
----------
xxxxxxx

320°98’
270°55’
----------
050°43’

So the Ascendant enters the Term of Mercury in about August 1988 and during the time the Ascendant moves through the Term of Mercury, the Native may be subject to serious accident or injury, or even death.

But, we need confirmation and so we look at the Profectional Charts to see what is happening. In 1989, the Profected Ascendant is Pisces:

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=21354&stc=1&d=1313030150

If Sagittarius is the Rising Sign, then a Profected Ascendant with Pisces rising would indicate that all Profected Planets are in square with the Natal Planets. That could indicate a year of conflict ranging from just minor irritations the entire year to a total catastrophe, or it could be a year of major challenges.

Since Jupiter is the Year Ruler, we need to look at Jupiter’s condition in the Chart. Jupiter is Peregrine, Cadent, Fast, Occidental, Diurnal, in a Masculine Sign and Degree, in a Feminine Quarter and not impeded by any Planets, nor in aspect to any Planets.

Overall, Jupiter is weak and only mildly Benefic here. One other thing, Jupiter is Feral. I don’t have a lot of experience with Feral Planets, since they are rare. As you can see, it requires that all Planets be in aversion (inconjunct) to the Feral Planet.

That (a Feral Planet), is the original “singleton.” Anything else is just an amateurish imitation.

Once you know the condition of the Year Ruler in the Natal Chart, you simply compare it to its condition in the Solar Return Chart. Year Ruler well-placed in the Natal Chart and Solar Return = Good year. Year Ruler badly placed in the Natal Chart and Solar Return = Bad year. Year Ruler in good condition in the Natal Chart but badly placed in the Solar Return = Not so good year. Year Ruler in bad condition in Natal Chart but in good in the Solar Return = Life is a little better than usual.

Just starting out you can use 30° per year for your Profections, but as you get more advanced, you’ll want to do Profections the correct way using Oblique Ascension. Again, unfortunately, there is no software that correctly calculates Profections, so you’ll have to do it by hand or using a spread-sheet.

Add the double Diurnal Hours of the Ascendant to the Oblique Ascension. The Diurnal Hour is 12°16’ for that Latitude. Sumerian Star Lists measured the distance between Stars in 3 ways, and one way was by Double Hours. I think what they were doing is measuring the arc between two Stars using Double Diurnal Hours (or Double Nocturnal Hours as the case might be).

270° 55' = 15° Sag 45'
295° 27' = 07° Cap 56'
319° 59' = 04° Aqu 01'
344° 31' = 06° Pis 35'
09° 03' = 13° Ari 54'
33° 35' = 18° Tau 08'
58° 07' = 15° Gem 45'

When you cross the Descendant, you’ll have to use the double Nocturnal Hours (17°43’ * 2) .

93° 33' = 18° Can 06'
128° 59' = 17° Leo 28'
164° 25' = 16° Vir 54'
199° 51' = 16° Lib 43'
235° 17' = 16° Sco 18'

And that brings us back to 15° Sag 45’

1 = 15° Sag 45'
2 = 07° Cap 56'
3 = 04° Aqu 01'
4 = 06° Pis 35'
5 = 13° Ari 54'
6 = 18° Tau 08'
7 = 15° Gem 45'
8 = 18° Can 06'
9 = 17° Leo 28'
10 = 16° Vir 54'
11 = 16° Lib 43'
12 = 16° Sco 18'

There appears to be a problem because…

(1) 1987 = 15° Sag 45'
(2) 1988 = 07° Cap 56'
(3) 1989 04° Aqu 01'
(4) 1990 = 06° Pis 35'

…it would seem Aquarius is the Profected Ascendant making Saturn the Year Ruler in 1989 instead of Pisces/Jupiter.

But that isn’t so. If you look, you see that the Profected Year for 1990 starts at 06° Pisces. Since the birth date is January 6, that means Pisces took over sometime in late November or early December of 1989. That means Saturn handed off the Year Ruler to Jupiter in the very last part of 1989 as the Profected Ascendant entered Pisces.

So let’s look at the Solar Return:


http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=21355&stc=1&d=1313030485


Year Ruler Jupiter is Cadent, Peregrine, Retrograde, in the Term of a Malefic (Mars) and in trine to the Sun without Reception. Jupiter is Unfortunate and weak. Note the Sun who is the Dispositor of the Lot of Death in the Natal Chart is conjunct the Lot of Death in the Solar Return. Note that Saturn rules the 8th House, Venus is the first Triplicity Ruler of the 4th House and that Saturn and Venus are conjunct each other’s Antiscia Point.

Mercury is the Ascendant Ruler in the Solar Return Chart and the Directed Ascendant is in the Term of Mercury in the Natal Chart. Mercury is Peregrine and Retrograde so he’s Unfortunate in the Natal Chart.

In the Solar Return Chart, Mercury is Peregrine, Out-of-Sect, Cadent, in the Term of a Malefic (Saturn) and worse than that, conjunct his own North Node at 3° Aqu. Mercury is extremely Unfortunate here.

One other thing. The placement of the Year Ruler determines how active the year is. When the Year Ruler is inconjunct the Ascendant, it will not be an active year. Given than he spent 95% of the year in a coffin, I would say he wasn’t exactly a busy bee that year.

So we have our confirmation.

Now, we need to see if there are any Primary Directions that would indicate death. There are two. One is Mars to the body of Sun and the other is Moon square Jupiter.

We’ll do Moon square Jupiter first. Moon is the Significator, and the Jupiter Square Point is the promise. There are two points from which Jupiter forms a square and that is 3° Scorpio (the converse Direction) and 3° Taurus (the direct Direction – in the order of Signs) We’ll use 3° Taurus.

Right Ascension of 3° Tau 54’ is 31.65319°
Oblique Ascension is 22.80533°
Declination is 12.82242°
Ascensional Difference (RA – OA) = 8.84786°
That makes the Semi-Diurnal Arc 98.84786°
Meridian Distance (RAIC – RA) is 30.70517°
Semi-Diurnal Arc divided by 6 gives us a Temporal Hour of 16.47464°
Meridian Distance divided by the Temporal Hour gives us the Hourly Distance: 1.86378°

Now it’s just a matter of plugging in the numbers.

Arc of Direction = Hourly Distance (Jupiter Square Point) – Hourly Distance (Moon) * Temporal Hours (Jupiter Square Point)

Arc of Direction = (1.86378 + 1.28833) * 16.47464

Arc of Direction = 3.15211 * 16.47464

Arc of Direction = 51.92987

Sun we’ll move in Mundo to the square of Mars (I don't think I've covered in Mundo Directions yet).

The square point of Mars is 6 Hours away (1 House away is inconjunct; 2 Houses away is sextile; and 3 Houses away is square -- each House equals 2 Hours) at 11° Gemini. How long does it take Sun to travel to that point? We’ll take the Hourly Distance of Mars, add 6 Hours then subtract the Hourly Distance of the Sun, then multiply that by the Sun’s Temporal Hours.

Arc of Direction = [Hourly Distance (Mars) + Aspect Point – Hourly Distance (Sun)] * Temporal Hours (Sun)

Arc of Direction = 1.11331 + 6 – 4.18057 * 17.71455

Arc of Direction = 7.11331 – 4.18057 * 17.71455

Arc of Direction = 2.93274 * 17.71455

Arc of Direction = 51.95216

Okay, so those are pretty close.

Moon square Jupiter works out to:

51.92987

51 years + 0.92987 * 12 (months) =

51 years 11 months + 0.15844 * 30.5 (days) =

51 years 11 months 4 days

The date of birth is Jan 6 so add 11 months and we get December 6 then add 4 days and we get December 10.

Sun square Mars works out to:

51 years + 0.95216 * 12 (months) =

51 years 11 months + 0.42592 * 30.5 (days) =

51 years 11 months 12 days

Again since the birth is Jan 6 we add 11 months to get to December 6 then add 12 days which is December 18

So our Directions gives us December 10 and December 18.

I do not in any way condone the use of Pukipedia, but suffice to say:

On December 11, 1989, Lindsay committed suicide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committed_suicide) with a rifle blast to his head. He was 51http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindsay_Crosby

This guy was the son of Bing Crosby, the famous crooner, you know "White Christmas" and then all of those "On the Road to....[wherever]" films with Bob Hope.

If you notice, the Lot of Wealth is square Mercury and Venus and the Almuten of Wealth Saturn is inconjunct the Lot.

I don't really want to get into that, because I'm going to do that on another thread, but he never really had it like the Old Man. His career never got off the ground really. Both his parents were alcoholics and his mother died of alcoholism early on, and being a "mama's boy" never got over it.

He wasn't poor by any stretch of the imagination, but he never made the money his father did.

A few points in the Natal Chart that can be addressed further. Jupiter is the Almuten of Death. I use the method by Abu Bakr, Abu Ma'shar and al-Qabisi. That is the 7th House, 8th House, 8th House Ruler, Sect Ruler 4th House Cusp, Lot of Death, Dispositor Lot of Death, and Saturn.

I've tried using Bonatti's (and I believe he uses Omar's method) but it just doesn't work.

In addition to being the Almuten of Death, Jupiter rules the 4th House, Moon rules the 8th House and Mars is the Sect Triplicity Ruler of both the 4th and 8th House (and Mercury rules the 7th House).

If you note in the Natal chart you see the Moon/Mars aspect and then you see it again in the Solar Return.

What is the symbolism of Moon/Mars?

I really hope no one makes me barf all over the place with something so stupid and so silly as “emotions and energy.”

Moon/Mars is change, or alteration or ending, usually sudden or abrupt.

Look at this chart:


http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=21356&stc=1&d=1313032008



You see the Moon/Mars aspect when the National Football League Players Association Collective Bargaining Agreement ended and was not renewed.

Note here that Mercury is the Sect Triplicity Ruler for the 4th Sign, Aquarius and that Moon/Mars are actually in the 5th Sign/House (sports, public venues, entertainment etc etc).

Here’s the Aries Ingress for the US for 1963. President Kennedy was assassinated that year.



http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=21357&stc=1&d=1313032008


Mars rules the Midheaven and is conjunct the Descendant with Moon Unfortunate because of the South Node conjunct the Ascendant opposing Mars.

Gotta love astrology.

So, let’s put aside the childish goofiness with “emotions and energy” and start using the adult symbolism. You'll see that a lot, if not in Natal Charts then in Solar Returns and Mundane Charts.

Anyway that should give you an idea of how to put things together. I was having a PM discussion about Feral Planets and was distraught because I searched and couldn't find any so I had to make one up, then yesterday I came across this chart with the Feral Jupiter and saw the Moon/Mars thing and just had to look at it.

Lost_spirit
08-12-2011, 02:34 PM
Hey Bobzemco,I haven't had the time to be in the forum or "investigate" on the subject for a while cause I've been busy working,but I wanted to thank you for your input to this thread,it means a lot.I will give it a better look when I get the chance.

Zaphod
09-03-2011, 02:24 PM
What is the symbolism of Moon/Mars?

I really hope no one makes me barf all over the place with something so stupid and so silly as “emotions and energy.”

Moon/Mars is change, or alteration or ending, usually sudden or abrupt.

That would actually make your point rather succinctly (and memorably!)

Moon rules stomach, Mars provides irritation, upset. (Perhaps after partaking of a bit too much Venus and Jupiter. ) Et voila: barf! (Just don't do it in the 4th House, you'll never get it off the carpet!) :)

secsaba
02-26-2012, 01:40 PM
This is a Night Chart, so Sun cannot be Hyleg. There are no Planets that have the required Dignity in the Moon, pre-Natal Full Moon (28° Cancer) or the Lot of Fortune. The Moon is in the 8th House and cannot be Hyleg, so it automatically falls to the Lot of Fortune, who isn't exactly up to the task.

For night chart Ptolemy method is:
1. The Moon, if it is found in a hylegiacal place.
2. If it is not, the Sun (this can be only in the first house or just below the horizon in the west with 5 degree orb)
3. If it is not, than the planet which is in hylegiacal place and has at least three kind of dignity in the Moon, prenatal Full-Moon and the Lot of Fortune place.
4. If it is not and the birth was preceded by a Full Moon then the Lot of Fortune is the hyleg.
5. If the birth was preceded by a New Moon then the Ascendant is the hyleg.

In the cart of Roger Chaffee as the birth was preceded by a New Moon the Ascendant should be the hyleg and NOT the Lot of Fortune as stated.

How this will affect the length of life calculation of Roger's chart?

F.E.Robbins translation of the Tetrabiblos page 279.

DreamingTheSeas
02-26-2012, 04:02 PM
For night chart Ptolemy method is:
1. The Moon, if it is found in a hylegiacal place.
2. If it is not, the Sun (this can be only in the first house or just below the horizon in the west with 5 degree orb)
3. If it is not, than the planet which is in hylegiacal place and has at least three kind of dignity in the Moon, prenatal Full-Moon and the Lot of Fortune place.
4. If it is not and the birth was preceded by a Full Moon then the Lot of Fortune is the hyleg.
5. If the birth was preceded by a New Moon then the Ascendant is the hyleg.

In the cart of Roger Chaffee as the birth was preceded by a New Moon the Ascendant should be the hyleg and NOT the Lot of Fortune as stated.

How this will affect the length of life calculation of Roger's chart?

F.E.Robbins translation of the Tetrabiblos page 279.

Finally another person (besides Bobzemco) with knowledge in Ptolemy's! work!!!

JUPITERASC
02-26-2012, 05:25 PM
Finally another person (besides Bobzemco) with knowledge in Ptolemy's! work!!!
And we also have Ominisphericus :smile:
Because the discussion led to Ptomlomy's method maybe its time to give attention to this method of finding the H & A.
It seems out that his method is more complicated than the rest.

I will first quote some summaries of the method of Ptolomy and than we can talk about it as well about the method of determining the length of life through the directions of the Hyleg.
Quote:
Ptolemy Book III, Chapter 10

Gives five hylegical places:
1. MC
2. 1st (5 deg before Asc and 25 degrees below)
3. 11th
4. 7th
5. 9th
The regions of greatest importance are the Sun, Moon, Asc, PoF and their rulers.

In a day chart, examine

Sun
Moon
Almuten of the Sun, new Moon prior to birth, Ascendant
Ascendant

In a night chart, examine

Moon
Sun
Almuten of Moon, full moon prior to birth, Part of Fortune
if the chart is conjunctional, the Asc, otherwise the Part of Fortune
[Note that if a day chart is preventional you still look for the last conjunction prior to the
birth; if the night chart is conjunctional you look to the last full moon.]
If both the luminaries or sect rulers are in hylegical places, take the one that is in the
place of greatest authority; the almuten is preferred only when it is in a position of
greater authority and has dignity with both the lights (Sun and Moon).



[B]Here's another summary of the method of Ptolomy:
(From this site: http://www.greekmedicine.net/medical_astrology/Longevity_and_the_Hyleg.html)
Quote:
Ptolemy's Method for Determining the Hyleg

Claudius Ptolemy, generally regarded as being the father of Western astrrology, states in his Tetrabiblios that the Hyleg is the planet with the greatest essential dignity in five important chart positions:
1) The degree of the Sun
2) The degree of the Moon
3) The degree of the Ascendant
4) The Part of Fortune
5) The Prenatal Syzygy - the degree of the New Moon or Full Moon before birth (New Moon if the natal Moon is waxing, and Full Moon if the natal Moon is waning).
When it comes to matters of essential planetary dignities, classical astrologers like Ptolemy had a much more complex and involved system for reckoning them than modern astrology. In addition to the modern dignities of rulership and exaltation, the ancients also figured in the triplicity rulers as well as the lords of the terms and faces.
In addition, they had a point system for tallying up or measuring the relative strength or debility of a planet, based on its essential dignities and debilities. Five points was given for a planet being the domicile ruler, four points for it being in exaltation, three points for it being the triplicity ruler, two points for being the term ruler, and one point for being the face ruler. The planet with the greatest essential dignity is called the Almuten.
With Ptolemy's method the Hyleg, being the planet with the greatest essential dignity over the above five key positions in the natal horoscope, functions like a Grand Almuten of the entire chart. To score and determine exactly what this Grand Almuten is, put the symbols for the seven classical planets across the top of the page. Under each, write down in a vertical column all the points each planet receives regarding each of the above five positions. At the end, tally up the total number of points for each planet; the planet with the highest score or total overall wins.
As a reference chart for scoring, especially regarding the more obscure classical dignities, I provide you with the following link. It's a chart of the essential planetary dignities according to Ptolemy, with an explanatory article of several pages that follows it:
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig2.html

One additional qualification remains: the planet must also be in a Hylegaical house. For purposes of selecting the Hyleg, Ptolemy considered the first five degrees above the horizon to be functionally part of the First House; a First House planet, to be Hyleg, must also be in the same sign as the Ascendant degree. If no planet can qualify to be the Hyleg, then the Ascendant itself becomes the Hyleg.
Once the Hyleg has been determined, it is analyzed according to its various accidental dignities to determine the native's potential for health and longevity. The point system for scoring these accidental dignities and debilities is also in the the Skyscript article that accompanies the chart on the above link. Accidental dignities add to the Hyleg's potential for health and vitality, whereas accidental debilities detract from it.
The 17th century English astrologer William Lilly also had his method for determining the Hyleg. It can also be found in the above Skyscript article.

DreamingTheSeas
02-26-2012, 05:31 PM
Jupi i consider myself as an Omni's fan.

JUPITERASC
02-26-2012, 05:50 PM
Jupi i consider myself as an Omni's fan.
Likewise! fwiw - Omnisphericus has an instructive thread investigating the Hyleg and Alcocoden according to numerous "Old Masters" of astrology including Bonatti - whereas Lost_Spirit was focusing solely on William Lilley's indications of specifically a violent death and whether they work or not :smile:
For anyone not familiar with these indications,you may want to check "Chistian astrology Book 3" or the following article http://www.astrologyedmonton.com/Newsletters/Jan2007.pdf

What I like about these rules is that they are not the usual indication type "malefics afflicting the luminaries" or "malefics in the 8th" that is adopted by many people.

Lilly uses the house rulers,the violent signs and the violent fixed stars as well,which explains why people with no apparent violent configurations in their chart died violently and why others with an afflicted chart had a natural death in old age.

I have tested these rules in some charts,and even though it can't be considered a research,so far it works better than any other theory on this subject.

I'd like to know an expert's opinion on this.If anyone uses these rules,if they work for them and any other consideration on the subject.

viola magmar
03-28-2013, 01:11 PM
quoting from BobZemco:


"I can just in case I find an accurate connection. I'm into Forensic Astrology and read a lot of homicide charts. Those are really interesting, and I've been using Mid-Points with those and they have shown to be incredibly accurate in describing certain facets of the crime, such as motive and other factors related to causal events. Even more importantly, Mid-Points verify the manner of death or narrow it down."

I went through your very interesting posts and because of recent news that Amanda Knox' trial will be started over again, I wonder whether reading her chart could give some indications as to her inclinations towards drugs and sex and violence. She is very good at looking sweet but this could be a manipulative trait. The chart I attach has been cast in Koch house system. Transits are for the hour assassination of Meredith Kercher was perpetrated.

I shall then post Meredith's chart, tentatively rectified since, being her TOB unknown, her natal chart is cast for 12 p.m, 28th of December 1985, Southward, London, UK.

viola magmar
03-28-2013, 01:15 PM
Hello Bob,

here is Meredith Kercher's chart, rectified by myself on a simplicistic base: transits of the moment. Looking forward to your very extensive-comprehensive considerations,

thank you, violalauraciao

JUPITERASC
03-28-2013, 02:07 PM
quoting from BobZemco:

"I can just in case I find an accurate connection. I'm into Forensic Astrology and read a lot of homicide charts. Those are really interesting, and I've been using Mid-Points with those and they have shown to be incredibly accurate in describing certain facets of the crime, such as motive and other factors related to causal events. Even more importantly, Mid-Points verify the manner of death or narrow it down."

I went through your very interesting posts and because of recent news that Amanda Knox' trial will be started over again, I wonder whether reading her chart could give some indications as to her inclinations towards drugs and sex and violence. She is very good at looking sweet but this could be a manipulative trait. The chart I attach has been cast in Koch house system. Transits are for the hour assassination of Meredith Kercher was perpetrated.

I shall then post Meredith's chart, tentatively rectified since, being her TOB unknown, her natal chart is cast for 12 p.m, 28th of December 1985, Southward, London, UK.

Hello Bob,

here is Meredith Kercher's chart, rectified by myself on a simplicistic base: transits of the moment. Looking forward to your very extensive-comprehensive considerations,

thank you, violalauraciao
Bob Zemco has not posted on our forum for approximately the past 1ighteen months and is much missed

- no forum member seems to have any news of him either -

there is a thread on the subject of "Where is BobZemco?" at http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42191 and some of the speculation concerns whether his sudden 'disappearance' from the forum is possibly connected to his somewhat direct responses and comments which led to many of his posts being deleted by moderators due to their 'incendiary' nature. Perhaps someday BobZemco shall return :smile:

viola magmar
03-28-2013, 02:48 PM
How sad. Such a valuable astrologer. Thank you for notifying me.

viola magmar

JUPITERASC
03-28-2013, 09:16 PM
How sad. Such a valuable astrologer. Thank you for notifying me.
viola magmar
That's ok viola magmar :smile:

by the way, Bob Zemco often mentions on his posts that he works with the methods of John Worsdale and there are discussions you would find most useful on astrologer Worsdale and his methods, how they worked and so on at http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7182

and also part II of a discussion on John Worsdale's Methods at http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7298

as well as a valuable discussion re: John Worsdale's Zodiacal parallels at http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7189

viola magmar
03-29-2013, 07:16 AM
Very nice of you Jupiteras:whistling:

I am pasting and copying your post and will take my time to go through the interesting links. The sliced cabbage is wonderful and, btw, first thing I thought seeing it: oh, what a lovely sliced cabbage!!!:sideways:

Forensic is new to me and with the increasing number of victims here in Italy, who simply disappear and nothing emerges for years - females mainly - it'd be worthwhile studying it.

Here's a link I checked yesterday, which goes farther...: http://truecrimeandastrology.com/site/?p=49

How would you like and try your go at the charts I posted? Thank you very much.

violalauraciao

JUPITERASC
03-29-2013, 01:43 PM
Very nice of you Jupiteras:whistling:

I am pasting and copying your post and will take my time to go through the interesting links. The sliced cabbage is wonderful and, btw, first thing I thought seeing it: oh, what a lovely sliced cabbage!!!:sideways:
Red cabbage sliced in this particular way are a clear illustration that demonstrates the Fibonacci spiral/sequence in nature :smile:
Forensic is new to me and with the increasing number of victims here in Italy, who simply disappear and nothing emerges for years - females mainly - it'd be worthwhile studying it.

Here's a link I checked yesterday, which goes farther...: http://truecrimeandastrology.com/site/?p=49

How would you like and try your go at the charts I posted? Thank you very much. violalauraciao
Thanks for the link!

We have no reliable time of birth for any of those involved in the Meredith Kercher Murder tragedy therefore it's speculation only - although using Trutine of Hermes may be a way forward to find an answer!

'Rectification Tips' thread may be of interest to you at http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51626 ... as well as thread discussing the tragic violent death of Trayvon Martin An Unarmed Teen Junior Schoolboy Killed By A Single Shot To The Heart 26 February 2012 by ex-bouncer and accused murderer George Zimmerman who has a documented history of previous violence that includes battery of a Law Enforcement Officer and court appearances for domestic violence http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48271 member claudette contributes on the thread from time to time and is particularly interested to experiment with rectifying birth time

I noticed something very interesting regarding certain planetary placements in the natal charts of many of the key people involved in the Trayvon Martin Murder tragedy which - EVEN WITHOUT having a time of birth - are intriguing simply due to clear connections with Fixed Stars
ARE THE FOLLOWING ASTROLOGICAL CONNECTIONS TO THE FIXED STARS REGULUS AND ALGOL SIMPLY CHANCE?

Claudette, since we have as yet no time of birth I have attached a chart for Mark Osterman using mid-day
– notice natal Jupiter on Regulus conjunct O'Mara's Jupiter – difference is Osterman's natal Jupiter is Direct

Trayvon Martin's natal Mars Retrograde is conjunct Regulus

George Zimmerman's natal Venus is conjunct Regulus

Mark O'Mara's natal Jupiter Retrograde is conjunct Regulus

Mark Osterman's Jupiter is conjunct Regulus

Mark Osterman ALSO has natal Venus conjunct Algol – as does Dr Robert J Zimmerman, GZ's ex-magistrate father

HOWEVER, if Mark Osterman's time of birth is just three minutes AFTER mid-day his natal Venus is 0º Gemini since Venus changes signs at that time AND remember we had a solar eclipse 20 May 2012 at 0º Gemini


BIRTH DATA SUMMARY

MARK O'MARA dob 8 FEBRUARY 1956 Queens, New York, natal Jupiter 27ºLeo Retrograde - conjunct REGULUS

TRAYVON BENJAMIN MARTIN dob 5 February 1995 Miami, Florida natal Mars 26º Leo Retrograde - conjunct REGULUS

GEORGE ZIMMERMAN dob 5 OCTOBER 1983 Manassas, Virginia natal Venus 29º Leo - conjunct REGULUS

DR ROBERT J ZIMMERMAN dob 13 Jun 1947 natal Venus 29º Taurus – conjunct ALGOL

MARK OSTERMAN dob 27 May 1968, Detroit, Michigan natal Jupiter 27º Leo conjunct REGULUS
as well as natal Venus 29º Taurus conjunct ALGOL
I also notice that Eclipses are highlighted when events related to the killing occur as for example
claudette - I've noticed that interesting astrological symbolism is apparent...

On the day Judge Kenneth Lester signed the motion as ordered by the appeals court and Judge Debra Nelson took over, Transiting Jupiter opposed the degree of 14 June 2012 Full Moon Eclipse... An apt metaphor for "Justice eclipsed/replaced!"

Note that on 17 October 2012 on the day George Zimmerman is mandated to appear in person in court before new Judge Nelson, transiting Jupiter precisely opposes O'Mara's natal Mars as he battles on behalf of accused murderer client George Zimmerman.

Also notice transiting Jupiter is Retrograde in the skies on that date and en route towards another pass and opposition of 14 June 2012 Full Moon Eclipse degree during early to mid-November.

Retrograde Jupiter is in fact opposing 14 June Full Moon Eclipse degree on the day of George Zimmerman's Saturn Return...

Transiting Jupiter eventually goes direct at the end of January 2013 before making a final pass and opposition during mid-April 2013 to the degree of 14 June 2012 eclipse

claudette fwiw IMO there are clear eclipse connections that I find most interesting.

The docket sounding chart you just posted shows TJupiter 15º Gemini 56 is conjunct Sun's degree at the 4 June 2012 lunar eclipse – Sun within 3º orb - which reminds of an earlier post to note the emphasis on 16º Tropical Virgo.

QUOTE from http://www.baynews9.com/content/news/baynews9/news/article.html/content/news/articles/cfn/2012/6/11/assistant_state_atto.html

“SEMINOLE COUNTY - There’s a new player in the case against George Zimmerman. Assistant state attorney Richard W. Mantei has been appointed to handle the investigation and representation of the state of Florida. The appointment was made June 4, but is now just being released”

IMO the key words of the above quote are that the appointment was made June 4

Why?

Because 4 June 2012 was the day of a lunar eclipse at 14º Sagittarius 14'
What I find significant is:

(1) transiting Mars at the time of the shooting was retrograding at 16 Tropical Virgo

(2) on 4 June 2012, the day of the eclipse transiting Mars was now DIRECT at 16 Tropical Virgo and separating from a square to the 14 Tropical Sagittarius degree

(3) AND that's the very day Assistant state attorney Richard W. Mantei was appointed to handle the investigation - i.e. the day when transiting Mars had returned to the degree occupied around the time of the shooting at the same time as a lunar eclipse.


I say 16º Tropical Virgo is to be highlighted as clearly significant because as well as the foregoing connections already outlined - that's the precise degree TVenus occupies during Shellie Zimmerman's continuance 17 October 2012 as well!


GZ's re-scheduled court proceedings two days later finds TVenus at 19º Tropical Virgo – within 3º orb

viola magmar
03-29-2013, 02:37 PM
Thank for mentioning Fibonacci. I read his biography quite a while ago. Some people are born with sparkle in their brains...

Well, yes. Meredith's TOB uncertain but Amanda's should be alright. Anyhow, following indications from the forensic website, I have cast a chart for the time and place Meredith was murdered and to me, it would seem quite telling. What should be studied there, like in horary, who and how many and what genre involved.

8th house Aquarius, masculine, double sign (two...?), Pisces, feminine, co-ruler. Two persons involved.
Mercury in 3rd, sextiling Vertex in 5th and trining Neptune in 7th, would indicate a youngsters, dark hair, coming into the party from outside. He did not come on foot.

Event chart Sun, POF, the body and BML in 4th house of the End of the Matter/Life.

NN and Uranus there. Jupiter ruling 5th and Neptune, co-ruler of 8th is sextile Jupiter: I think they had been forcing/having a sort of a "party" with some drugs but things went too far and Amanda was unable to refrain from a homicidal impulse: her natal NN is at degree of homodice.

Moon ruling 12th, Mars conjunct. Moon conjunct AC Leo.
AC of event chart, and Moon are conjunct Amanda's natal IC... did she make up her mind to end Meredith's life, suddently. on the spot?

T Sun conjunct Amanda's N Pluto. BML there. And T Jupiter conjunct her N Moon and Uranus, with T Pluto trining her N Jupiter in 11th. The chart would indicate that a fit of obsessive ego and will of revenge for something she had hated in Meredith, blinded her.

I'am sure there's a lot more there to see. Till next.

I am attaching it, just in case you wish to have a look. Thank you for all the info you gave me.

violaciao

JUPITERASC
03-29-2013, 03:12 PM
Well, yes. Meredith's TOB uncertain but Amanda's should be alright.
Unless Amanda Knox's TOB is sourced from medical records it's not reliable - and even medical records are questionable! :smile:

viola magmar
03-29-2013, 03:29 PM
Unless Amanda Knox's TOB is sourced from medical records it's not reliable - and even medical records are questionable! :smile:

Well then, I am afraid most of the cases which were studied along, going backwards from the past centuries would be "out"..:innocent:

Sometimes I rely on what I call "vision". In 2001/2 - not sure now -, when I had sudden news of a person found dead in his home, because of the circumstances of his life, I had the strong feeling he had been poisoned with digitalis - a heart attack was pretended -. I only knew the year when he had been born. In going through all possible houses and aspects, I found the probable day. At the funeral which was held not only in the States but in a sort of tributing form, a bit all over the world, when I asked around, one of the ladies said: same day as I. And it was it.

I'll come back here later and post his chart. ciaodaviola

JUPITERASC
03-29-2013, 03:43 PM
Well then, I am afraid most of the cases which were studied along, going backwards from the past centuries would be "out"..:innocent:
Exactly. If not documented by reliable records then these cases would be matters of informed opinion... and of course opinions, whether informed or not, tend to vary - hence there is no consensus! :smile:
Sometimes I rely on what I call "vision". In 2001/2 - not sure now -, when I had sudden news of a person found dead in his home, because of the circumstances of his life, I had the strong feeling he had been poisoned with digitalis - a heart attack was pretended -. I only knew the year when he had been born. In going through all possible houses and aspects, I found the probable day. At the funeral which was held not only in the States but in a sort of tributing form, a bit all over the world, when I asked around, one of the ladies said: same day as I. And it was it.

I'll come back here later and post his chart. ciaodaviola
Thanks! That's most intriguing

Nevertheless, we need all the evidence before drawing firm conclusions

viola magmar
03-29-2013, 06:44 PM
Jupiteracs

here is the chart for LR occurring the month the person died.

Extremely rich person. Newly married to a woman who had already "lost" another rich husband: at least one husband, I am not sure if more... Lots of turmoil within the big, international enterprise he had founded, 'cause he strongly wanted to keep it "clean" and was trying to buy all the shares back.

Later on, his biography was published and birth data given, possibly, as I see I cast a chart with exact hour.

LR for May 2000 (BTW not 2001 nor 2002), looks interesting...