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Manic_Monday
11-15-2006, 01:23 PM
The Lord of Geniture is the strongest planet in your chart, isn't it? The planet with the most essential dignity?

But how could I determine what planet is Lord of Geniture in my chart? I've done research on the internet, but I just can't figure it out for myself.
I've looked at what planets are in dignity in my chart. Mercury in Virgo, Saturn in Capricorn, Pluto in Scorpio. But now what? What's the next step? Does a planet have to be in dignity to be the strongest planet in the chart? My Scorpio Moon conjunct Pluto squaring Venus plays an important role in my daily life. It has a big influence on me.

My Saturn in Capricorn is in dignity, but I don't feel like I have any Capricorn in my chart. When I read descriptions for my Saturn, I only recognize my fear for everything when I was a little kid. So how could this be a strong planet in my chart?

I'm just really confused. Could someone explain the Lord of Geniture and how to determine it?

Manic_Monday
11-15-2006, 01:27 PM
Oh. Maybe it's useful if I post my natal chart :)

http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/8918/chartpn0.th.png (http://img147.imageshack.us/my.php?image=chartpn0.png)

Draco
11-15-2006, 05:20 PM
Hi Manic.

The Lord of Geniture is the strongest planet in your chart, isn't it? The planet with the most essential dignity?

The Lord of the Geniture (birth), is the planet in the chart with the greatest dignity that has the power to act upon that strength, so accidental dignity must be taken into account also, such as the strength of the house it occupies, and sometimes, aspects to benefic planets and other fortuitous signs. Sometimes it is easy to identify the Lord of the Geniture, sometimes it is more challenging, and this in itself may reflect how easy or difficult it is for the native to get in touch with their purpose in life.

In your own chart, Saturn is the Lord of the Genture.

By way of essential dignity, Mercury is stronger than Saturn being in both it's domicile and exaltation, but in terms of accidental dignity, Mercury and Saturn are both retrograde, diminishing their power, but also by way of accidental dignity, Saturn is placed in the first, the most powerful of the angular houses, Mercury is in the eighth, which is succedent, but traditionally associated with fear and loss, so by it's very nature is weak. Saturn's placement in the first, despite it's retrogradation, and despite Mercury being essentially stronger, Saturn has the utmost ability to enact it's essential strength by virtue of it's being in the strongest angular house.

I've looked at what planets are in dignity in my chart. Mercury in Virgo, Saturn in Capricorn, Pluto in Scorpio.

The outer planets cannot be reckoned as Lord of the Geniture in a horoscope. The determination of the Lord of the Geniture is a traditional method, and traditionally, the outer planets do not have any place in the holistic and complete scheme of planetary dignities and debilities. Some are used to the idea of Uranus, Neptune and Pluto having dominance in Aquarius, Pisces and Scorpio, but these signs already have their domiciles. Personally, I am fine with the idea that the outer planets are worth considering in a nativity, particularly the horoscopes of notable persons or in mundane charts, but the transpersonals, by their very nature, are above and beyond the petty confines of essential dignities and debilities to which we can subject the light bearing planets, who are more interested in individual human affairs and in being our personal guides or 'lords'.

Does a planet have to be in dignity to be the strongest planet in the chart?

No, not necessarily. Take for example a person who only has planets in their detriment, fall and those that are peregrine. Our only option is to determine a peregrine planet with the greatest accidental dignity as Lord of the geniture.

The Lord of the Geniture is our guide in life, we might even think of it as our guardian angel. Wherever in life we are at a loss, indecisive, confused, or at a crossroads, if we do not know what to do or which way to turn, then the Lord of our Birth will send us in the right direction and afford us the strength that we need to move forward. The LoG represents our greatest innate strength, and as we usually lead with our strengths, this planet will always show us the right way in which to go and guide us to our destiny.

From the smallest of decisions, such as what to wear or what pet is most appropriate for us, to the most major decisions such as what career to embark upon or who to marry, the the LoG will be our guiding light, and if we pay it credence, it will, if we acknowledge it and work with it, will put us in touch with that which will maximise our innate strength. If we conciously engage our planetary lord in all that we do in our life, then we cannot go far wrong, but this is not necessarily the easiest task.

In my own chart, Mars in Scorpio is my Lord. When I think about my life, it becomes apparent that Mars in Scorpio gets me in touch with my innate strengths, and those things which come under it's symbolic umbrella, are those things that infuse me with power and vitality. If we consider how the Lord of the Geniture can be our guide, even in the smallest of things such as what to wear, or what pet would be most appropriate for us, then as you have Saturn in Capricorn, then I'd say that black is definately your colour, for this colour would invigourate you, and as for a pet, then perhaps an old goat in the yard wouldn't be a bad idea! :p Really though, these are things for you to think about.

In my own case, I have come to realise how my own Lord has a definate influence over guiding my life. The clothing that I have owned that I have felt the very best in, has always been clothing that would symbolise Mars in Scorpio quite nicely. Among the favourite clothing I ever had was a pair of boots called 'predator' boots. They were black leather, and went up to the knee, they laced at the front, zipped at the sides and had two straps around each leg that buckled at the sides. The right boot had a case for a knife. I suppose they were somewhat fetishistic, but this is perfectly Mars in Scorpio, and the reason I was so attracted to such attire in the first place and felt so great in them, is because they put me in touch with the energies of Mars in Scorpio, my Lord.

I still have and always will have a predeliction to clothing which has a dark and sexy nature, because I am guided by my lord to that which is most expresses my latent vitality.

My ideal pet, according to Mars in Scorpio, would be a predatory and mute creature, such as a snake or even a spider, but I have a real problem with arachnaphobia, so a snake would be better. I remember begging my mother for a snake when I was small, but she loathed the idea. I still do not have my snake, but realising the Lord of my Birth makes me understand why I have always wished for one, as owning such a creature would make me feel the most invigorated.

In my astrological pursuits, I am continually fascinated by study of the charts of notorious criminals and event charts of crimes and tragedies, but this is where I am guided by Mars in Scorpio, and as I proceed in my studies, it is to these fields that I intend to focus my attentions, as to do such would be to act in accordance with the Lord of my Birth, who will always guide us to where we are meant to go.

Then there are the less trivial concerns of how we may be guided by our lord. With Mars in Scorpio, perhaps I should have done detective work or forensic science, as it happens, my access to Mars in Scorpio energies has been somewhat different - which is why we should always aim for a higher expression of our lord's will's, as they can drag us along as well as lift us up if we do not apply their essences appropriately.

I hope I have helped you come to some understanding of what the Lord of the Geniture is and what it represents. Consider your own lord Saturn, and have a think about how he guides you in life and where you might allow him to guide you next. ;)

I think I will provide two or three example charts of celebrities, so we can see how their own Lords have guided their lives, so that you are more clear as to what the LoG is and how to determine it.

Spica3
11-16-2006, 12:09 AM
I agree with what Draco has said. Your LoG is the strongest and most dignified of the traditional planets in your chart.

In my case, Venus is final dispositor of all my planets. But it is not LoG.

Saturn is, because it rules my Asc, is exalted, and makes trines with my Asc and my angular Moon (a wide one). It is on the cusp of a cadent house, but is also the most elevated planet in the sky, and is the most aspected planet. I do feel it is a sort of guardian angel or guiding light for me. In addition, it conjuncts Spica, and I sometimes also feel it's almost a benefic.

Yes, Saturn is your best candidate for LoG. It rules your Asc, is dignified, angular, and makes a grand trine with 2 personal planets. All of that make it strong, a big shot in your chart.

Pluto is angular. It is co-ruler of the sign it's in but this does not make it dignified, because it is not the traditional ruler of Scorpio. In addition, its dispositor, Mars, is in detriment and is lowest planet in the chart, which makes it akin to someone working behind-the-scenes.

You probably feel your Scorpio side more because your Scorpio Moon (feelings, instincts) is angular and in the 10th, and it squares Venus on the cusp of the 8th (natural Scorpio) house. Moreover, it is the highest planet in your chart. Its effects will be very obvious not only to you but to others as well. It also connects to your Asc ruler, Saturn (personality, appearance), and you probably express its effects by extension, so to speak.

Rubella
11-16-2006, 11:51 AM
Anyway you specialists can explain how to find this planet in a chart for dummies like me? :-p

Draco
11-16-2006, 12:43 PM
Hi Rubella.

Your's is one of those charts where it is easy to identify the LoG, and the lord of your chart is the Sun exalted and in it's day triplicity in Aries in the seventh. The Sun is strong by being in powerful dignities of it's own, but, more importantly, it's angular house placement means that it can make use of this innate strength with gusto.

Venus also has innate strength in your chart by it's exaltation in Pisces, but despite it's latent fortitude, it falls into the cadent sixth, and for all it's power, it is very difficult for you to capitalise upon this essence and make it potently manifest. The Sun on the other hand has the means to express it's latent exaltation and triplicity to the full, by virtue of it's angular position.

So the Sun in Aries is Lord of the Geniture in your chart.

Spica3
11-16-2006, 01:00 PM
Oh, I'm certainly no specialist! :o But I took a look at your chart and picked Venus as LoG.

It's your Asc ruler. That should always be the 1st choice. Then see its condition and check if any other planet is stronger or more dignified than it.

It's in Pisces, AND in the degree of its highest exaltation. Great!

Its dispositor is Jupiter, which is angular and strong, conjuncts NNode, receives good aspects from Mars and Saturn, and makes only a weak separating square from Neptune.

It receives a sextile from the angular 10th ruler Moon, which is in detriment, but still, Moon areas will generally be helpful.

It IS in the 6th and cadent or weak, i.e. not working dynamically. But that doesn't take away from its key role in the chart. It's still chairman of the board.

Mars and Mercury are in mutual reception. However they have no connections to the important 1st and 10th houses and their rulers.

Rubella
11-16-2006, 01:46 PM
Draco and Spica,

Thank you both! although you seem to disagree :-P

Spica3
11-16-2006, 02:55 PM
Yes, I did notice the Sun, but thought, well, it's practically out of Aries, being at 29° 59' of the sign, and since it's virtually in Taurus, it would be ruled by Venus. So I just wrote it off, and chose Venus. But I could still be wrong, and the Sun might be it.

There is actually a way to make Venus, or any cadent planet, stronger in the chart. By making it angular. This is just a theory, but worth trying out. If you e.g. move left or West of your birthplace, Rubella, you would be able to push Venus into the 7th, making it stronger.

This theory, as well as the principle that planets project their influence forwards or in the direction they are moving, suggests to me that the Sun in your chart can be regarded as being in Taurus.

Now for the theory of astro-location. Moving about 10° West would still keep the the same signs on the house cusps. The Dsc would be 1° Aries, bringing Venus within angular range and making it strong. However, this puts the Sun on the cusp of 8th. POF changes signs too.

If you move Asc/Dsc further back to 27° of the previous sign, that would make Venus even stronger but you'll have to settle for different house cusps and rulerships. Strong Venus means you'll have a strong assertive personality and a positive 8th house area, both weak areas in the birth chart.

If you are going to do this experiment, try not to stray too far north or south from the birth latitude, as that would pull the MC/IC axis to one or the other side and distort the house sizes you now have.

Rubella
11-16-2006, 03:45 PM
Spica,

What you're saying is very interesting... but I don't know, it looks like I'm completely changing my chart!

And as for my Aries Sun, I hear that a lot... that it's practically Taurus. I think that if it's 29'59, it was supposed to be Aries 29'59, if I should've been a Taurus, it would've been 00'01 Taurus :)

I think the very end of a degree counts as that degree, still.

Draco
11-16-2006, 04:05 PM
The Sun is certainly the LoG in this chart.

Spica makes some interesting observations about the ascendant ruler, but consideration of the cusps that planets rule and despositors are not and never have been part of the criteria by which the LoG is determined.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/geniture.html

I reiterate:


Venus also has innate strength in your chart by it's exaltation in Pisces, but despite it's latent fortitude, it falls into the cadent sixth, and for all it's power, it is very difficult for you to capitalise upon this essence and make it potently manifest. The Sun on the other hand has the means to express it's latent exaltation and triplicity to the full, by virtue of it's angular position.



This is why the Sun is LoG and Venus is not, even if it is ruler of the ascendant, which is a different thing entirely.


the Sun in your chart can be regarded as being in Taurus.



It certainly can't. Taurus does not begin until 00.00, The Sun may be at the last degree and minute of Aries, but no matter how much a person presses oneself up against a wall, it does not mean that they can be considered to be in the next room.

Spica3
11-16-2006, 07:03 PM
Okay, Rubella, I have the same 'problem' as yourself. I have my Sun at 29° 58' Pisces, on the doorstep of Aries. I'd like to say something about what Draco said about being either-or one sign.

All my life, I've felt like an Aries Sun, especially in my younger days. I've been described as strong, domineering, opinionated, bossy, assertive, brave, hot-tempered. I do get angry about things, though my cool Aquarius exterior hides it well. I'm certainly no wallflower, and I'd much rather lead than follow. Health has been fairly good all my life - hinting at an Arian Sun. Finally, I have scars on my scalp and face, but none on my feet.

I just don't think I'm a Pisces Sun. And don't feel like one. Don't have any weaknesses, such as smoking, drinking or drugs. Don't even take proprietary medication. Natural health is more important to me - which sounds to me more Arian than Piscean. Neither am I particularly religious or spiritual.

Does this mean that, if the Sun is indeed in Aries in my chart, making it exalted, then it takes precedence over my Saturn, and therefore it becomes my LoG? I don't think so. The Sun and its houses in my chart don't play significant roles in my life.

There are astrology texts which say that a planet in the last 2 (!) degrees of a sign can be read as being in the next sign. I would keep it to perhaps the last 30' for the luminaries, and 15' for the other planets.

So, my question back to you, Rubella, is which sign do you think you are - Aries or Taurus? If you feel you're an Aries, then the Sun would be your LoG. If a Taurus, then it would be Venus.

But get this. According to how William Lilly works it out, it is Mars!

Arian Maverick
11-16-2006, 07:34 PM
I fear this may be straying somewhat from the original topic of the Lord of the Geniture, but I can relate the the dilemma of feeling "stuck" between two signs because all of my chart angles conjunct the Aries Point; although the time recorded on my birth certificate gives me an Aries Ascendant/Libra Descendant and a Capricorn Midheaven/Cancer Nadir, a three-minute difference would give me a late Pisces Ascendant/Virgo Descendant and a late Sagittarius Midheaven/Gemini Nadir.

So although I am confident that Saturn is the Lord of the Geniture in my natal chart, I am much less certain which planet is the Lord of my Ascendant.

Arian Maverick

Draco
11-16-2006, 10:02 PM
All my life, I've felt like an Aries Sun, especially in my younger days. I've been described as strong, domineering, opinionated, bossy, assertive, brave, hot-tempered.

Why should these characteristics only be ascribed to the Sun and no other factors of the horoscope?

Health has been fairly good all my life - hinting at an Arian Sun.

This would be more to do with conditions pertaining to the first house and the hyleg. The Sun is peregrine in Pisces, and exalted and in it's triplicity half the time in Aries, so perhaps Ariens do have a little advantage in vitality, but this would be a naive and observably incorrect assumption as so very, very much depends on everything else in the horoscope.

Finally, I have scars on my scalp and face, but none on my feet.


I'm Virgo, but I have no scars upon my small intestine as far as I'm aware. Must Pisceans necessarily have scarred feet? Is it the role of the Sun in astrology to inflict scars upon us according to where the Sun is placed in the zodiac?

I just don't think I'm a Pisces Sun. And don't feel like one. Don't have any weaknesses, such as smoking, drinking or drugs.

A great many Pisceans don't, but this is to reduce astrology to it's grossest level and boil everything down to stereotypical Sun-sign characteristics. I'm a Virgo, so according to the tiresome stereotype I am supposed to be very neat and tidy and very particular about health issues, but nothing could be further from the truth. Personally I do smoke, drink and use recreational drugs from time to time, but my propensity to hedonism is described elsewhere in my chart, even without any planetary placement or house cusp in Pisces. My Virgo qualities are of course there, just not according to the all pervading stereotypical description of glossy mags. Being a Virgo just means that everything I do, I do with a source of light situated in Virgo. It's possible to use drugs in a Sun-Virgo way, just as it is possible to pursue health and fitness in a Sun-Pisces way. So the stereotypical Arien traits you described earlier, can still be manifested via a creature whose source of illumination is situated in Pisces. The Sun isn't the be all and end all of everything.

Natural health is more important to me - which sounds to me more Arian than Piscean.

If we're talking stereotypes, it sounds more like the cardboard cut-out Virgo to me.

Does this mean that, if the Sun is indeed in Aries in my chart, making it exalted, then it takes precedence over my Saturn, and therefore it becomes my LoG? I don't think so.

By definition, the Sun is in the last degree of Pisces according to what you said, and as such would be peregrine. Even if the Sun was in Aries, then it would be impossible to determine whether or not, the Sun, Saturn or any other planet would be the LoG without observing the essential and accidental dispositions of each planet in the chart.

The Sun and its houses in my chart don't play significant roles in my life. :eek:

If you feel that your Sun in Pisces does not play a significant role in your life, that's probably because you have been focused on Sun sign stereotypes and decided that the description of Aries suits you better than that of Pisces, but Pisces you are, but this is just the sun sign, your source of light, there is so much else to be explored.

There are astrology texts which say that a planet in the last 2 (!) degrees of a sign can be read as being in the next sign.

I am reaching the border of Germany from France, therefore I am already in Germany. Peculiar idea. Which texts are these?

Are these texts that you are reffering to the Sun signs columns of newspapers, that say if you were born on the 21st April that 'you are born on the cusp and therefore you are between Aries and Taurus'? Not true. In fact, the exact date upon which the Sun moves from sign to sign differs slightly from year to year, there is no grey area between sign boundaries, a person is either born on the last degree of one sign or the first of another.

So, my question back to you, Rubella, is which sign do you think you are - Aries or Taurus?

Rubella:

I think that if it's 29'59, it was supposed to be Aries 29'59, if I should've been a Taurus, it would've been 00'01 Taurus

Or even 00.00 Taurus. ;)

If you feel you're an Aries, then the Sun would be your LoG. If a Taurus, then it would be Venus.

If the Sun was on the first degree of Taurus, the Sun would be peregrine and could not qualify as the LoG, but it isn't.

According to how William Lilly works it out, it is Mars!

How so? Mars is peregrine on the cusp of a succendent house.

Rubella
11-17-2006, 09:53 AM
Spica,

I definately am an Aries Sun. I can say that I am a more complete Aries Sun than person with their sun in the 1st degree.
I do think that a person with their planet in the end of a sign means he's internalised its lessons. There are many levels of development to a sign and a person, and the sign their sun is can manifest in different levels and ways.
Maybe you're a much more complete Piscean Sun. Not all Pisces I know drink, do drugs, etc'.

Draco,

"How so? Mars is peregrine on the cusp of a succendent house."

My Mars on the cusp of the 9th, not the 8th - it's a cadent house, no?

Manic_Monday
11-17-2006, 07:45 PM
The Lord of the Geniture (birth), is the planet in the chart with the greatest dignity that has the power to act upon that strength, so accidental dignity must be taken into account also, such as the strength of the house it occupies, and sometimes, aspects to benefic planets and other fortuitous signs. Sometimes it is easy to identify the Lord of the Geniture, sometimes it is more challenging, and this in itself may reflect how easy or difficult it is for the native to get in touch with their purpose in life.
Ah okay. That makes it a lot more clear.

In your own chart, Saturn is the Lord of the Genture.

By way of essential dignity, Mercury is stronger than Saturn being in both it's domicile and exaltation, but in terms of accidental dignity, Mercury and Saturn are both retrograde, diminishing their power, but also by way of accidental dignity, Saturn is placed in the first, the most powerful of the angular houses, Mercury is in the eighth, which is succedent, but traditionally associated with fear and loss, so by it's very nature is weak. Saturn's placement in the first, despite it's retrogradation, and despite Mercury being essentially stronger, Saturn has the utmost ability to enact it's essential strength by virtue of it's being in the strongest angular house.
Saturn it is then :) But how come I don't really feel that Saturn? I can't identify with a first house Saturn. Capricorn intercepted, is that it? But it rules my ascendant, so I should feel it.


The outer planets cannot be reckoned as Lord of the Geniture in a horoscope. The determination of the Lord of the Geniture is a traditional method, and traditionally, the outer planets do not have any place in the holistic and complete scheme of planetary dignities and debilities. Some are used to the idea of Uranus, Neptune and Pluto having dominance in Aquarius, Pisces and Scorpio, but these signs already have their domiciles. Personally, I am fine with the idea that the outer planets are worth considering in a nativity, particularly the horoscopes of notable persons or in mundane charts, but the transpersonals, by their very nature, are above and beyond the petty confines of essential dignities and debilities to which we can subject the light bearing planets, who are more interested in individual human affairs and in being our personal guides or 'lords'.



No, not necessarily. Take for example a person who only has planets in their detriment, fall and those that are peregrine. Our only option is to determine a peregrine planet with the greatest accidental dignity as Lord of the geniture.

The Lord of the Geniture is our guide in life, we might even think of it as our guardian angel. Wherever in life we are at a loss, indecisive, confused, or at a crossroads, if we do not know what to do or which way to turn, then the Lord of our Birth will send us in the right direction and afford us the strength that we need to move forward. The LoG represents our greatest innate strength, and as we usually lead with our strengths, this planet will always show us the right way in which to go and guide us to our destiny.
But if it represents our greatest strength... I don't have any discipline. When I have to choose between going on the internet and work, I'll choose the first option. That's Mars in 5 I guess. And I'm chaotic, I'm not organised. And ambituous, noo. Not at all. Ambition and laziness doesn't go...

From the smallest of decisions, such as what to wear or what pet is most appropriate for us, to the most major decisions such as what career to embark upon or who to marry, the the LoG will be our guiding light, and if we pay it credence, it will, if we acknowledge it and work with it, will put us in touch with that which will maximise our innate strength. If we conciously engage our planetary lord in all that we do in our life, then we cannot go far wrong, but this is not necessarily the easiest task.

In my own chart, Mars in Scorpio is my Lord. When I think about my life, it becomes apparent that Mars in Scorpio gets me in touch with my innate strengths, and those things which come under it's symbolic umbrella, are those things that infuse me with power and vitality. If we consider how the Lord of the Geniture can be our guide, even in the smallest of things such as what to wear, or what pet would be most appropriate for us, then as you have Saturn in Capricorn, then I'd say that black is definately your colour, for this colour would invigourate you, and as for a pet, then perhaps an old goat in the yard wouldn't be a bad idea! :p Really though, these are things for you to think about.
It's really funny, since I was thinking about this the other day. I usually wear jeans + something black. Or dark blue. I don't have any color in my closet.

In my own case, I have come to realise how my own Lord has a definate influence over guiding my life. The clothing that I have owned that I have felt the very best in, has always been clothing that would symbolise Mars in Scorpio quite nicely. Among the favourite clothing I ever had was a pair of boots called 'predator' boots. They were black leather, and went up to the knee, they laced at the front, zipped at the sides and had two straps around each leg that buckled at the sides. The right boot had a case for a knife. I suppose they were somewhat fetishistic, but this is perfectly Mars in Scorpio, and the reason I was so attracted to such attire in the first place and felt so great in them, is because they put me in touch with the energies of Mars in Scorpio, my Lord.

I still have and always will have a predeliction to clothing which has a dark and sexy nature, because I am guided by my lord to that which is most expresses my latent vitality.

My ideal pet, according to Mars in Scorpio, would be a predatory and mute creature, such as a snake or even a spider, but I have a real problem with arachnaphobia, so a snake would be better. I remember begging my mother for a snake when I was small, but she loathed the idea. I still do not have my snake, but realising the Lord of my Birth makes me understand why I have always wished for one, as owning such a creature would make me feel the most invigorated.

In my astrological pursuits, I am continually fascinated by study of the charts of notorious criminals and event charts of crimes and tragedies, but this is where I am guided by Mars in Scorpio, and as I proceed in my studies, it is to these fields that I intend to focus my attentions, as to do such would be to act in accordance with the Lord of my Birth, who will always guide us to where we are meant to go.

Then there are the less trivial concerns of how we may be guided by our lord. With Mars in Scorpio, perhaps I should have done detective work or forensic science, as it happens, my access to Mars in Scorpio energies has been somewhat different - which is why we should always aim for a higher expression of our lord's will's, as they can drag us along as well as lift us up if we do not apply their essences appropriately.
Great examples, really.

I hope I have helped you come to some understanding of what the Lord of the Geniture is and what it represents. Consider your own lord Saturn, and have a think about how he guides you in life and where you might allow him to guide you next. ;)

I think I will provide two or three example charts of celebrities, so we can see how their own Lords have guided their lives, so that you are more clear as to what the LoG is and how to determine it.
Yes, you really helped me out. I now better understand the LoG. Thank you so much!

Spica3
11-19-2006, 07:56 AM
Yes, we've certainly strayed away from the original question by Manic Monday. My apologies to Manic Monday, Rubella, and Arian Maverick. But please allow me to refute Draco's misinterpretations of what I said in my post.


Quote (Spica3):
All my life, I've felt like an Aries Sun, especially in my younger days. I've been described as strong, domineering, opinionated, bossy, assertive, brave, hot-tempered.

Quote (Draco):
Why should these characteristics only be ascribed to the Sun and no other factors of the horoscope?

Because, in my chart, the Sun is the planet most likely to be expressing these qualities. I know enough about astrology to know that. To ascribe these characteristics to other factors in the chart is to indulge in the stereotypical astrology you're accusing me of expounding, Draco. Neither did I say that no other factors give these characteristics. It would be inconsiderate of me to describe all the factors of my chart in here on the thread of someone else's question on their nativity.


Quote (Spica3):
Health has been fairly good all my life - hinting at an Arian Sun.

Quote (Draco):
This would be more to do with conditions pertaining to the first house and the hyleg. The Sun is peregrine in Pisces, and exalted and in it's triplicity half the time in Aries, so perhaps Ariens do have a little advantage in vitality, but this would be a naive and observably incorrect assumption as so very, very much depends on everything else in the horoscope.

FYI, Draco, the hyleg is NOT related to the state of the health. It is you who has made a "naïve and observably incorrect assumption". But the Sun is ALWAYS one of the factors in the health. I was careful to say "hinting at an Arian Sun" and not "confirms I have an Arian Sun". The 1st house (actually, the ASC is more correct) pertains to the physical body, the Sun is the vitality, and the Moon 'the humours'. The hyleg is that which supports or gives life, and pertains more to matters about death and physical survival, rather than health. In any case, we're discussing the Sun and which sign it could be in so as to determine LoG, not the "so very, very much depends on everything else" of the horoscope.


Quote (Spica3):
Finally, I have scars on my scalp and face, but none on my feet.

Quote (Draco):
I'm Virgo, but I have no scars upon my small intestine as far as I'm aware.

This sounds flippant and patronizing.

Quote (Draco):
Must Pisceans necessarily have scarred feet? Is it the role of the Sun in astrology to inflict scars upon us according to where the Sun is placed in the zodiac?

I never said or implied this, Draco. You know very well what my point is, and you also know that what you are saying here was not my point. Since the Sun is one factor in the physical conditions of the body, then where the Sun is, would be one of the places to look at for scars or defects. And since we're discussing the Sun and which sign it could be………


Quote (Spica3):
I just don't think I'm a Pisces Sun. And don't feel like one. Don't have any weaknesses, such as smoking, drinking or drugs.

Quote (Draco):
A great many Pisceans don't, but this is to reduce astrology to it's grossest level and boil everything down to stereotypical Sun-sign characteristics. I'm a Virgo, so according to the tiresome stereotype I am supposed to be very neat and tidy and very particular about health issues, but nothing could be further from the truth. Personally I do smoke, drink and use recreational drugs from time to time, but my propensity to hedonism is described elsewhere in my chart, even without any planetary placement or house cusp in Pisces. My Virgo qualities are of course there, just not according to the all pervading stereotypical description of glossy mags. Being a Virgo just means that everything I do, I do with a source of light situated in Virgo. It's possible to use drugs in a Sun-Virgo way, just as it is possible to pursue health and fitness in a Sun-Pisces way. So the stereotypical Arien traits you described earlier, can still be manifested via a creature whose source of illumination is situated in Pisces. The Sun isn't the be all and end all of everything.

Again, the subject is the Sun and determination of its sign. It is clear, Draco, that you are using this subject to assert that I "boil everything down to stereotypical Sun-sign characteristics".

Neither am I depending solely on the Sun to represent my horoscope. If you have read my posts carefully, you would see that I have not insisted on only one interpretation for any factor. I know better than to wallow in stereotypical Sun sign astrology. You underestimate me, Draco. You're more Virgoan than you're admitting…..judging by this nitpicking exercise you're on (JUST my opinion, and yes, a stereotypical one this time).


Quote (Spica3):
Natural health is more important to me - which sounds to me more Arian than Piscean.

Quote (Draco):
If we're talking stereotypes, it sounds more like the cardboard cut-out Virgo to me.

There! Proof that you believe in stereotypical Sun signs yourself! I do NOT have Virgo related to any health areas in my chart. Go figure! You said yourself we should look at other areas of the chart for health, so what is your motive for bringing up stereotypes here?


Quote (Spica3):
Does this mean that, if the Sun is indeed in Aries in my chart, making it exalted, then it takes precedence over my Saturn, and therefore it becomes my LoG? I don't think so.

Quote (Draco):
By definition, the Sun is in the last degree of Pisces according to what you said, and as such would be peregrine. Even if the Sun was in Aries, then it would be impossible to determine whether or not, the Sun, Saturn or any other planet would be the LoG without observing the essential and accidental dispositions of each planet in the chart.

FYI, and contrary to what you are saying, a peregrine planet can STILL be LoG.

Look, I've ALREADY observed the essential and accidental dispositions of each planet in my chart, all done, completed, finished, tied up with a nice neat little knot. Your statement implies that we need to consult you to work out the essential and accidental dispositions to determine the LoG. You're not the only one with this knowledge. I have it too. And so do a lot of others.


Quote (Spica3):
The Sun and its houses in my chart don't play significant roles in my life.

Quote (Draco):
If you feel that your Sun in Pisces does not play a significant role in your life, that's probably because you have been focused on Sun sign stereotypes and decided that the description of Aries suits you better than that of Pisces, but Pisces you are, but this is just the sun sign, your source of light, there is so much else to be explored.

It seems all you know to do is insinuate that I practise Sun sign astrology, which has NEVER been the case. Please, I absolutely HATE Sun sign astrology. Now, how come you don't see that? I'll have to say this again - I know enough about astrology to know what I'm talking about. There are reasons why the Sun and its houses are not significant in my chart, and it's nothing to do with following Sun sign stereotypes, as you falsely accuse me of doing. Again, you are wrongly using this subject against me.


Quote (Spica3):
There are astrology texts which say that a planet in the last 2 (!) degrees of a sign can be read as being in the next sign.

Quote (Draco):
I am reaching the border of Germany from France, therefore I am already in Germany. Peculiar idea. Which texts are these?

Draco, sign cusps are not walls of rooms or borders of countries. This peculiar idea is YOURS! And I disagree with that analogy.

There is an area of energy around each planet, larger for the luminaries, just as each of us has an area of energy around us. If these energies or forces did not exist, there would be no such thing as astrology. To use your idea, when you cross the border into Germany, your thoughts, your intentions, your physical presence are all directed towards Germany, even though you're still in France.

The Gauquelins proved there is an area of influence for each house that starts fading in gradually well BEFORE the cusp, peaks around the cusp, and then fades out within the house. They discovered that the extent of manifestation of a planet in a particular house depends upon which point in that area of influence it is in, as well as upon which angle it is in. It is only logical to assume that any kind of physical body has a field of energy around it which interacts with other energy fields in a similar way.

Incidentally, I also stated that I DON'T follow the 2° rule, but use a much tighter proximity of 30' to 15' for planets. Are you quoting me selectively so you can criticize me? You can easily find the relevant texts if you look.

Quote (Draco):
Are these texts that you are reffering to the Sun signs columns of newspapers, that say if you were born on the 21st April that 'you are born on the cusp and therefore you are between Aries and Taurus'? Not true. In fact, the exact date upon which the Sun moves from sign to sign differs slightly from year to year, there is no grey area between sign boundaries, a person is either born on the last degree of one sign or the first of another.

Yet another tiresome insinuation that I follow Sun sign astrology.


Quote (Spica3):
So, my question back to you, Rubella, is which sign do you think you are - Aries or Taurus?

Quote (Rubella):
I think that if it's 29'59, it was supposed to be Aries 29'59, if I should've been a Taurus, it would've been 00'01 Taurus

Quote (Draco):
Or even 00.00 Taurus.

Precisely why I asked Rubella this question. To see which Sun sign she could be. And she answered my question - based on the exact degree and minute of her Sun, she thinks she should be an Aries. She also feels she's strongly Aries. And I respect and accept that. Saying that her Sun could even be at 00.00 Taurus is irrelevant.


Quote (Spica3):
If you feel you're an Aries, then the Sun would be your LoG. If a Taurus, then it would be Venus.

Quote (Draco):
If the Sun was on the first degree of Taurus, the Sun would be peregrine and could not qualify as the LoG, but it isn't.

You're fudging things here, Draco. My statement does NOT say that the Sun should be LoG regardless of sign. My statement says that the Sun would be LoG only if it was in Aries. My statement also says that if it ISN'T in Aries but is in Taurus, then VENUS would be LoG.

Once again, Draco, being peregrine does NOT disqualify a planet from being LoG. This seems to be another "naïve and observably incorrect assumption" you are making.


Quote (Spica3):
According to how William Lilly works it out, it is Mars!

Quote (Draco):
How so? Mars is peregrine on the cusp of a succendent house.

You know the source; read it up yourself, please. BTW, the spelling is 'succedent', and as Rubella pointed out, her Mars is on the cusp of a cadent house.



Finally, let me quote William Lilly on the Lord of Geniture:

"Concerning this, there is some difference amongst the Ancients…….."

He admits there are differing opinions, and goes on to give the prevailing view,

"Others will have that Planet Lord of the Geniture who has most essential dignities in the ascendant, mid-heaven, place of the Sun, Moon and Fortuna, ……..and this is rational."

He actually agrees that this is a valid viewpoint, and then gives his own,

"That Planet who has most essential and accidental dignities…..…that he ought to be Lord of the Geniture, and am confident the whole actions of the Native will more or less partake of the nature of that Planet and so his Conditions, Complexion, Temperament and Manners shall be much regulated to properties assigned that Planet……"

He clearly implies this is his own method. Note that he says "whole actions of the Native" and mentions PHYSICAL characteristics, amongst others - the reason I mentioned the scars when discussing why I think I'm an Arian rather than Piscean Sun.

And he deemed the Greeks' method important enough to also impart to his students,

"The Greeks did use to account that Planet Lord of Geniture who had most dignities in the place of the Moon or Mercury……"

Even WL himself did not insist on his view being the only right one. Amen.

There are also a number of websites where knowledgeable astrologers discuss in detail how they determine the LoG. Which is how I learnt that a peregrine planet can still be LoG.


This is a forum, for god's sakes! People join forums to share ideas, views and information. I have my views, just as every one else has theirs. Each viewpoint has something useful in it. It is NOT a nice feeling when I come in here to participate, only to be a target of another member's uncalled-for slights and insinuations. And another thing - not only are my points taken out of context to cast aspersions on me, but also seemingly mistaken and unqualified assumptions are put forward as the only correct rules to go by.

Draco
11-22-2006, 02:59 AM
I actually responded to this hours ago, but the post vanished! It was definately sent, because I checked. I will respond again tomorrow.

astroman1
04-07-2008, 05:53 AM
Hi, i was wondering if you experts can help me. I been told my LoG is Venus, but reading above im confused now...
Please take a look and let me know what u think.. Thnx

Here is the link (hope it works..) to my chart.

http://interactive.0800-horoscope.com/cgi-bin/graphic/daisy13?x=720name=astroman1&firstname=&birthplace=Faisalabad&lang=en&dformat=0&date=5/2/1990&time=14:14&country=92&state=0&adjust=-5.00&long=-73.09&lat=31.25

Looking to Jupiter
04-07-2008, 06:16 AM
Hey astroman1,

Welcome to the forum:)

I have two young boys running around the house at the moment, but I think I have this right. Jupiter is your LoG. Jupiter gets four points for being in exaltation, 2 points for being in term, and 4 points for being in the 4th house.
I have to say, that i was struggling with your chart, to get the right houses....so i will check that I am indeed correct, when the other kid, in the home, goes home.
There was also another thread, that I saw the other day, about the LoG.....I will see if I can find it again.....it may help you be able to work it out for yourself.

Anyway, I hope this helps
L2J ( a student not an expert)

astroman1
04-07-2008, 10:38 PM
Thanx for looking. Sorry about the chart being hard to read. But i think you made a mistake. My Jupiter is in the 10th house lol. My 4th house has Neptune and Uranus in it. It is hard to decide between Venus or Jupiter because they are both in exaulted signs (Venus: Pisces Jupiter: Cancer)
Venus is in the 7th house, and Jupiter in the 10th and my Ascendant is Virgo... So i couldnt decide Jupiter or Venus.
What do you think?

Looking to Jupiter
04-07-2008, 11:29 PM
sorry....yeh i was exhausted yesterday...its in the tenth (jupiter), which gives it more accidental dignity still. (5 pts) Jupiter it is

astroman1
04-07-2008, 11:56 PM
Thnx. Ok so my next question is: What does it mean to have my LoG as Jupiter?? lol. What does LoG represent?

Gail
03-29-2012, 05:02 PM
I have the same problem.My almuten figuris is Venus but still i dont know my Lord of Geniture...What is my lord of geniture?

Gail
03-29-2012, 05:06 PM
I have the same problem.My almuten figuris is Venus but still i dont know my Lord of Geniture...What is my lord of geniture? And i feel like libra because of my lord of geniture .Could anyone tell me please?

Zaphod
04-07-2012, 12:12 PM
As far as how to "easily" determine the LoG, I can think of a couple of ways to go at it (but I'm not sure I would consider it an "easy" topic by any means!) The most complete I have seen is the method described at the back of the book "On the Heavenly Spheres" by Helena Avelar and Luis Ribiero. They encourage you to do the computation manually at first so you get a good handle on it, and not use a computer program. Another way is to download the "traditional" version of the free program Morinus (you will also have to download and install the Python program, which I believe has some necessary "libraries" in it, but it's no big deal). Morinus has a module for doing almuten calculations for the chart and for specific points, using a variety of methods that you can customize according to different traditional authorities (Ptolemy, Dorotheus, Morin, etc.). I don't see that it factors in peregrination, but it does give relative weighting to house placement, day and hour rulers, and other accidental dignities. I found that I had to ground myself in the principles involved in each of the variables, but once I did it became crystal-clear what was happening when I changed each one.

I didn't get a good grip on chart rulership until I began studying traditional astrology, starting with William Lilly (augmented by insights from James Wilson's 1880 "Dictionary of Astrology") and then discovering modern interpreters like Avelar/Ribeiro and Kevin Burk. Contemporary methods always seemed like "seat-of-the-pants" approximations at best (even where they factored in essential dignities), and in my opinion left a lot to be desired. After over 30 years of working with 1970s-era psychological astrology, this was a real eye-opener for me!

Omnisphericus
04-16-2012, 01:13 AM
I have the same problem.My almuten figuris is Venus but still i dont know my Lord of Geniture...What is my lord of geniture? And i feel like libra because of my lord of geniture .Could anyone tell me please?

In my opinion, The Lord of the Geniture and Almutem Figuris are two names of the same thing.

Penthesilea
10-16-2012, 07:05 PM
http://i1304.photobucket.com/albums/s525/penthesileaXIII/astro_2ata_20_penthesilea_hw224294422_zps9d00d388. gif
This thread may be too old, but I find this and another thread created by Draco several years ago very interesting.

I began learning astrology operating under the impression that Pluto was my chart ruler, but since the way Pluto operates is a bit out of my conscious hands, could anyone help me determine what the LoG would be for my chart?

My Guess would be Saturn because it is conjunct the Ascendant and in its term in the end degrees of Scorpio. However, the chart system I came across to calculate, also said that being in the term of a Malefic (Saturn or Mars) means points should be deducted. It is also retrograde. Both suggest in the old system a weakness, though I find retrograde planets to be a strength personally as I am in touch with the energies more seamlessly in my internal world.

If anyone has a chance to look the chart over and give suggestions as to why one thing would be LoG, I would be most appreciative!!

Thanks!

JUPITERASC
10-16-2012, 08:25 PM
This thread may be too old, but I find this and another thread created by Draco several years ago very interesting.

I began learning astrology operating under the impression that Pluto was my chart ruler, but since the way Pluto operates is a bit out of my conscious hands, could anyone help me determine what the LoG would be for my chart?

My Guess would be Saturn because it is conjunct the Ascendant and in its term in the end degrees of Scorpio. However, the chart system I came across to calculate, also said that being in the term of a Malefic (Saturn or Mars) means points should be deducted. It is also retrograde. Both suggest in the old system a weakness, though I find retrograde planets to be a strength personally as I am in touch with the energies more seamlessly in my internal world.

If anyone has a chance to look the chart over and give suggestions as to why one thing would be LoG, I would be most appreciative!!
Thanks!

How to calculate the LoG :smile:

07-06-2010, 12:39 PM
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/image.php?u=4652&dateline=1187186025 (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/member.php?u=4652) lillyjgc (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/member.php?u=4652) http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/images/futura/statusicon/user_offline.gif
Senior Member, Educational board Editor
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,957


Almuten
ALMUTEN
By Cosmiccradle


The Almuten is the most powerful planet in the Chart having taken into account and calculated essential and accidental dignities. The word Almuten is derived from the Arabic al-mateen meaning “the strong one” or “the firm one”.

Using the Almuten can be of great importance when interpreting the horoscope,as it gives us a visual insight into the strength of the planets as to their place within the horoscope. This is not to say that other points lose their importance compared to the Almuten, only that the hierarchy should be noted when taking the chart into account and that we should give special attention to this planet, or in some cases, planets.

In the chart we have three important Lords


Lord of the Geniture = Almuten taking into account both accidental and essential dignities
Lord of the Figure = Almuten taking into account only essential dignities
Lord of the Ascendant = Ruler of the Ascendant

The Almuten is almost as old as astrology itself. With more insight and use, we could being doing astrology a service by investigating Rulership placements.

Penthesilea
10-18-2012, 03:24 AM
Thanks Jupiter! I finally sat down today and was able to untie the strange new age astrology knots long enough to calculate the almutem :)

I see that one definitely needs to calculate this one their own to really grasp this concept.

The only thing is, mars and venus tied for the almuten, both with 32 points...

I used the formula outlined in this thread:

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49000

Do you have any suggestions for having calculated two Almutens?

I feel like a Hermaphrodite, but its rather pleasant.

Thanks for your response- I think this concept finally clicked!

tsmall
10-19-2012, 12:06 AM
The only thing is, mars and venus tied for the almuten, both with 32 points...

I used the formula outlined in this thread:

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49000

Do you have any suggestions for having calculated two Almutens?



Personally, and I'm no expert either, I would look at the whole chart. Is one of them the term ruler of the sect light, or the ASC? Is one of them closer to an angle? They are both of the same sect...so really, which one is in a better position to actually be helpful?

JUPITERASC
10-22-2012, 02:31 PM
Thanks Jupiter! I finally sat down today and was able to untie the strange new age astrology knots long enough to calculate the almutem :)

I see that one definitely needs to calculate this one their own to really grasp this concept.

The only thing is, mars and venus tied for the almuten, both with 32 points...

I used the formula outlined in this thread:

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49000

Do you have any suggestions for having calculated two Almutens?

I feel like a Hermaphrodite, but its rather pleasant.

Thanks for your response- I think this concept finally clicked!
Penthesilea, as tsmall advised you need to choose the planet that has testimony to the Ascendant as Almuten, and the other then co-testifies to the first ruler :smile:

Penthesilea
10-22-2012, 03:00 PM
Thank you Tsmall and Jupiter. It is definitely Mars then. Good to know!! It is true that I feel the effects of Saturn and Mars Transits the most so that makes a great deal of sense.

I just calculated the almutens of all my friends too:)

Omnisphericus
11-23-2012, 08:33 PM
In my opinion, The Lord of the Geniture and Almutem Figuris are two names of the same thing.

To correct my self:

Lord of the Geniture is more Rennaisance "invention", while Almutem Figuris bears history from the Perso-Arabian authors and is connected to the neo-platonists ideas and hermeticism (magick). It requires different calculation and has different inherent meaning and philosophy. I think the philosophy behind those two is what distinguishes them.