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Draco
08-27-2005, 12:52 AM
The HIV virus was discovered in 1983, soon after the Pluto and Saturn conjunction in Libra in '82, and I wonder whether its discovery was heralded by that conjunction. Both planets have deadly and insidious connotations, and Libra is a sign concerning sexuality as it concerns interaction and relationship and mutual engagement. It is also ruled by Venus, from where the word 'venereal' etymologically derives. Those of us born at the conjunction were the first to come into a world in which we would never know of a time in which HIV did not exist. It ushered in a more sexually liberal age, but a less sexually carefree age, in which the shadow of the grim reaper (Plu/Sat) looms at the edge of our sexual awareness (Lib), where a transmitted infection may not just result in a course of antibiotics but may result in a hidden, undetected (Plu) form of death (Sat). My school year were the first to be taught HIV awareness as a matter of course. Perhaps because we all have this conjunction? I wonder how often Saturn and Pluto come into conjunction and whether it has any resonances with identification of or outbreaks of disease, or some other form of 'hidden death' depending upon its sign?

Draco. :wink:

Anonymous
09-05-2005, 10:40 AM
Hi Draco

Pluto was opposing Saturn when they started the smallpox eradication program in the early 60's. Pluto in Virgo doing its cleanup act and Saturn in Aquarius actually benefitting humanity? We had learnt our lessons and now it was helping?

So, if a conjunction is an out break:

The HIV virus was discovered in 1983, soon after the Pluto and Saturn conjunction in Libra in '82, and I wonder whether its discovery was heralded by that conjunction.

and an opposition is an eradication.... will a square mean a breakthough in treatment? How many more years left till eradication begins?

I wonder if there are any more diseases which follow this (warped) theory?

Cheers.

hel

Draco
09-05-2005, 02:24 PM
Hi Hel,

Why is the theory 'warped'?

I was very interested to read your post. I was starting to think nobody would get back to me on this one. I'm glad that you did because you've presented an interesting theory: Are major diseases eradicated or repressed when Pluto/Saturn are opposed, and discovered or mutated when Pluto/Saturn are conjunct? You providing this information has made me more intrigued as to this Saturn/Pluto/disease connection.

I suppose this is a long shot, on the strength of just our two examples, but suppose we're onto something here? Saturn has always been associated with disease, plague and illness and Pluto, as far as we know him, would seem to preside over that which is deadly, insidious and unseen.

I wonder if it would be possible to find a rough start date for the Bubonic Plague? It would be interesting if Saturn/Pluto were conjunct.

Are there any other diseases that you can think of that stand out in human history, either for thier discovery or eradication?

I'm going to have a look at the AstroPro website, where I think I'll be able to find the dates of Pluto/Saturn conjunctions/oppositions of, lets say, the last century.

We can look at these dates, and maybe through something as simple as a few internet searches, we may be able to find significant relations with deadly diseases according to certain alignments of Pluto and Saturn.

I know that we're basing all this on just two hunches, but sometimes following a hunch leads you to strange revelations, so we might as well give it a go.

I hope you are as interested to look into this with me as I am. According to AstroPro, the Pluto/Saturn conjunctions occured as follows.

1. Oct 4 - 1914 @ Capri 2'14 (Pluto retrograde)

2. Nov 1 - 1914 @ Capri 2'04 (Saturn and Pluto retrograde)

3. May 19 -1915 @ Capri 0'54

4. Aug 11 - 1947 @ Leo 13'7

5. Nov 8 - 1982 @ Libra 27'36

These dates strike me as interesting, particulary as there was a double conjunction in 1914. In the first Pluto was retrograde, and in the second both were in retrograde (showing the return of something perhaps?). I have not as yet checked at this point, but was 1914 not around the time a major, fatal influenza epidemic in the world? Of course, I am going to check after posting, but this will be intriguing stuff to follow up. There was another conjunction soon after in 1915, so according to our theory, this should have been a very significant time for the outbreaks if disease. All the 1914/15 conjunctions occur in grim Saturn ruled Capricorn, giving the planet of death and disease even greater power. 1914/15, it seems was the most significant time in the 20th Century, concerning this meeting of Pluto and Saturn.

I am aware that the Saturn/Pluto conjunctions probably had things to do with WW1, but we are looking into diseases here. As I say, I haven't checked just yet but I'm sure there were major pandemics in 1914/15. I might be wrong but if so it would make my hunch more probable to some extent.

Now, concerning the Saturn/Pluto and the possible connection to the defeating, pushing back or eradicating of diseases, these are the dates of oppositions in the 20th Century according to Richard Nolle's site:

Saturns postion first, Pluto's position after:

1. Feb 17 - 1931 @ Capri 19'04, Cancer 19'04 (Pluto retro)

2. Jul 08 - 1931 @ Capri 20'18, Cancer 20'18 (Saturn retro)

3. Dec 13 - 1931 @ Capri 21'41, Cancer 21'41 (Pluto retro)

4. Apr 23 - 1965 @ Pisces 13'59, Virgo 13'59 (Pluto retro)

5. Feb 20 - 1966 @ Pisces 17'35, Virgo 17'35 (Pluto retro)

(Pisces, not Aquarius)

What strikes me about these dates is that the first three conjunctions in the 20th Century occur in Capricorn. The first three oppositions occur across the Capricorn/Cancer axis all with Saturn in Capricorn, where Saturn is strong. I was wondering perhaps whether possible diseases which broke out due to conjunction in 1915/16, were perhaps cured or eradicated or something significant in relation to this during the oppositions of 1931?

There was no opposition that occured in the 20th Century in which one of the planets was not retrograde. In fact, looking through the AstroPro Saturn/Pluto emphemeris, it would seem a very rare event that Saturn and Pluto come into opposition when one of them is not retrograde. I found this interesting and had not expected this. There must be some asrological significance in this. Perhaps when Saturn and Pluto are in opposition, the direct planet dominates the retrograde one, creating balance and a submission of that planet to the others energies? I just thought that these very rare oppositions when boh planets are direct must have some astrological meaning.

The last time Saturn/Pluto opposed each other while both direct in motion was a double opposition occuring on May the 10th and the 25th of 1568. I wonder what the history might be regarding this date? It is made more notable by the fact that it was a double event just over two weeks apart. The next time that Sat/Plu are both direct and in opposition will be on May 6th of 2198. Perhaps a look back in history will let us know what were in for then.

I would appreciate help from anybody upon this. Remember though, to stick with the criteria. We are looking for significant correlations between Sat/Plu conj/oppo in reference to a possible connection with the outbreaks, discoveries, cures, eradications, mutations or advances in the areas of human sickness and disease, particularly fatal diseases. I know there are all sorts of things that could be ascribed to Sat/Plu, but what I'm particularly interested in here is the cycles relationship to human plagues and fatal ailments.

I'm very thankful for any help in this. I've been waiting to get this ball rolling for ages, thanks for your post Hel. :wink:

In trying to find important links with these dates, I am going to type the years of the conjunctions into a search engine, with keywords such as 'disease', 'outbreak', 'epidemic', and 'virus'. First I am only going to look for the significant year, and the year before and after. (or perhaps just the year or year after, as before the aspect touches the energies will not have been set in motion yet). At this stage I am not going to be too specific about the month, and probably not the exact date, as the influence of the alignment is not necessarily felt as soon as it occurs, particularly as it involves such a distant and elusive planet. At this stage I think it is best to look for the year, the year before and the year after as significant. (For example, HIV was officially declared to the world in early '83, whereas the conjunction occured in November '82.) It would be intersting if Nov 8, 1982 was the official date of it's scientific discovery.

If you are going to help me, you can help me to research the conjunctions by using the dates and any relevant keywords for an internet search. (what a wonderful age we live in - anything you need to know, right at your fingertips).

Looking into squares between Sat/Plu would also be interesting, but we should focus on the conjunctions and oppositions for the time being.

In the end we may find things that were totally unexpected, either way I'm sure we'll gather some insights.

Okay I'm off for now. I'll be back soon. :wink:

Draco
09-05-2005, 08:19 PM
Oct-Nov/May - 1914/15 Saturn/Pluto conjunctions

Relating to the 1914 outbreak of disease, I discovered an internet source describing a book by one Myron Echenberg called, ‘Black Death, White Medicine: Bubonic Plague and The Politics of Public Health in Colonial Senegal, 1914 – 1944. This is just a small extract from a description of what the book contains. Source: www.findarticles.com

All underlining, bracketing or italics are mine for emphasis:

Notice the Saturnian and Plutonic language in the article, which I have highlighted with italics:

‘’The French colonial administration responded to the 1914 outbreak (of plague) by enforcing curfews for Africans and segregating the city into African and French quarters, arguing that Africans spread the disease through poor hygiene. Mass burials and the cremation of bodies ravaged by the plague were required of all African plague fatalities, and African survivors were forced to comply with strict, and at times extreme, vaccination and sanitation measures.’’

‘’ Sanitation and prevention methods continued to be severe, placing the blame on the victim, an abusive practice that Echenberg argues persisted until the postcolonial period in Senegal. When the plague raised its head again in 1944, it was smothered with DDT and sulfa drugs, therapies brought to Senegal as a result of the American military presence at the end of World War II. (had these therapies been perfected by 1947, with the conjunction perhaps, bringing the plague full circle from beginning to end?) Here, Echenberg points out that differences in medical technologies were not all that distinguished from the first outbreak of 1914 from the outbreak of 1944. Subdued resistance to antiplague treatment reflected fatigue on the part of local African communities in Senegal after thirty years of brutal plague control methods. By the mid-1940s, (1947?) Echenberg suggests, people endured precautions against plague as another material hardship of the colonial experience’’.

The year 1944 would seem too early for our 1947 conjunction to be significant here. It is worth considering that the triple 1931 opposition would have occurred between the stated dates of 1914 – 44, in the article above. Would this mean that a cure was being looked for or would it mark the disease reaching its peak at that time? I would suspect the latter, because if the outbreak wasn’t brought under control until the 1940’s, (1947?) it would seem that the disease culminated under opposition of Sat/Plu and started at 1914/15 conjunctions and ended at the 1947 conjunction.

In 1918, okay so I know this is a bit late, but remember if we are looking around the time of the conjunctions, then I feel that its influence may be felt afterwards, once the energies of the conjunctions are set in motion. The Great Spanish Flu pandemic reared it’s ugly head, coinciding with the end of WW1. This was to be the greatest pandemic crisis since the bubonic plague. I wonder if the double conjunctions of 1914/15, strong in a Saturnian sign, manifested itself in the great pandemic of 1918? I imagine so. Not only was this a double conjunction only a fortnight apart, but both planets were retrograde in the second conjunction and all conjunctions were strong in Saturns sign, allowing Saturns malefic qualities full expression. Also, the outbreak is traced to 1918, as this is when it was realised that there was a pandemic at large, but I wonder if the virus was conceived, mutated or began spreading in Oct/Nov 1914? I would imagine so according to the astrology.

‘’The statistics surrounding the 1918 flu are staggering. Estimates of worldwide deaths range from 20 million to 100 million. The disease affected 25 percent of all Americans, or nearly 700,000 people, targeting its fury on young, healthy adults age 20 to 40. More men died from influenza than in combat during World War I’’. Source: www.findarticles.com

I found another article referring to the outbreak of typhus fever among WW1 soldiers.

‘’When World War I broke out in 1914, the progress in medical science had been so significant that there was a reasonable hope that major epidemics would be avoided in the coming conflict (Wow! How wrong were they!)… But on the Eastern Front one disease returned in all its medieval ferocity and wreaked havoc on the military plans of the Central Powers

‘’…in late November, typhus fever began to emerge among the Serbian refugees, a few days later cases were reported among the army and among prisoners of war……General typhus was about to reprise it’s role as a determiner of military strategy.’’.
It is impossible to state, with any accuracy where the epidemic started. The first accumulation of cases occurred among Austrian prisoners at Valjevo. Outbreaks throughout the rest of the country followed within a week. The infection had traveled with the wandering population, with prison trains, and with moving troops and been rapidly disseminated to all parts of the country. What followed next was a scene of horror that Europe had not seen since the Black Death.’’

Again I emphasise the Saturn/Pluto connotations.

‘’The Serbs were unable to cope. The few existing hospitals were soon full to overflowing and others had to be improvised within building which often lacked sanitary provisions of all but the most primitive order. There were practically no nurses. There were no beds, no linens, and no medicines for almost all of the victims who had to provide themselves what medical care they could. There were less than 400 doctors in the country, many of them under the colors. Almost all of them contracted the disease, 126 fatally. Eventually there were hardly enough grave diggers left as they too fell victim’’. Source: scarab.msu.montana.edu

I found another very interesting site regarding the beliefs of Jehovah’s witnesses, who according to calculations from a biblical date, they regard that the ‘end of times’ did in fact come in 1914 AD. This was believed prior to the date and is still believed by them now. I have received pamphlets from Jehovah’s witnesses in which I have noticed this strange 1914 belief, although I never realised the significance of this date until now. Jehovah’s Witnesses condemn astrology, but it is interesting that they should choose their ‘end of times’ to coincide with this significant astrological phenomenon. On this site I found many quotes from their ‘watchtower’ magazine, in which there is a whole list of references to the 1914 event. Source: www.freeminds.org

Here’s just a couple of examples:

‘’1914 "Remember that the forty years' Jewish Harvest ended October A.D. 69, and was followed by the complete overthrow of that nation; and that likewise the forty years of the Gospel age harvest will end October, 1914, and that likewise the overthrow of 'Christendom,' so-called, must be expected to immediately follow." {TIAH 245}’’.

‘’1914 "We see no reason for changing the figures - nor could we change them if we would. They are, we believe, God's dates, not ours. But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble." {WT Jul 15 1894 266 repr 1677}’’.

They were wrong about that, with the 1st WW and the outbreak of so much disease, the Saturn/Pluto conjunctions heralded the beginning of a time of great trouble, not the end. Strange how they considered this date to be the dawn of a new era, which it I suppose it was. If Jehovah’s Witnesses accepted astrology, they might find even more significance in this date.

So far I have found that an outbreak of plague erupted in Senegal, which abated some time around the next conjunction. The great Spanish flu epidemic I feel was also a consequence of the double conjunction. The outbreak of prominent epidemics of diseases such as typhus, and other viruses and infections which took an unprecedented sweep over the world at the time seems very, Saturnian and Plutonic.

This is what I have come up with for now, but I’d be very interested to see if anyone could contribute some more upon these Oct-Nov/May 1914/15 conjunctions, before looking at the next conjunction of 1947. I am sure that there is a great deal more evidence that could be put forward regarding these double conjunctions impact upon human affairs, and if you can find anything, hopefully you will share the information.

I have only provided just a few examples of what was going on on the world scene at the time, and it seems clear that disease was very much on the agenda all over the world. There are other examples I could provide, but I’d like to give someone else a chance to respond upon this.

As I say , this is just a couple of examples but I feel that this reflects what was going on on the world stage at large, and that these influences were the result of the Pluto/Saturn double conjunction, and the third six months later.

I'll keep posted.........

Anonymous
09-06-2005, 10:44 AM
Hi Draco

You have been busy!

Forgive the formatting on this, only I’m doing it off line and Word is having a funny half hour! Or its Uranus transiting the 4th house – I’ve replaced just about every piece of electrical equipment!

To the point: Everything I found disproved the theory, but there is a trend – it’s just not quite identifiable!! It’s only a quick look – limited time and all that - ‘overview then details’ as my physics teacher was fond of saying!


1915 Dysentry bacterium isolated
First Carcinogens identified

1932 Vitamin C isolated

1947 Epidemic of Smallpox in New York

1948 RNA Discovered

1959 Smallpox eradication began
1962 Outbreak of Smallpox in south Wales valleys – mass immunisations.
Thalidomide banned

1965 LSD controlled
Cigarette adverts banned from UK TV

1966 WHO Campaign began in earnest

1972 Yugoslavia, Belgrade, 10th March – first case of Smallpox admitted to hospital. Died later that night. Quarantine began 23rd March, 18 Million Vaccinated.

1977 October. Smallpox epidemic in Somalia
1978 Smallpox – University of Birmingham

1980 WHO announced Smallpox eradicated.


All the smallpox stuff came off the BBC web site: www.bbc.co.uk/history/discovery/medicine/smallpox

The other stuff came from “ ITN News - The Visual History of the Modern World” (I know!! But it serves its purpose – putting the transpersonals into context!)

The outbreaks don’t seem to tie in with the theory, but perhaps there is another theme? Another aspect to look at perhaps? Another planet joining in the configuration? Jupiter – spreading (I have difficulties finding Jupiter the ‘great benefic’), Mars- rushing on? If I remember rightly, there were astrological articles on the SARS outbreak. I came across them just as I was getting into Astrology. They were too confusing, so I filed them. I’ll have to dig them out.

When I’m back in work, I’ll have to ask if there’s anyone who remembers the smallpox outbreak here (or near enough, anyway!), and ask our microbiologist what diseases have now been eradicated. Then I’ll know where to look.

Must go, I’ve an assignment to write.

Catch you later

hel

Draco
09-07-2005, 11:50 PM
Hi Hel,

I was only specifically looking at events which may have related to times on or a little after the conjunction dates, for example on and after the 1914/15 conjunctions. This was such a powerful set of conjunctions because the first and second occured just two weeks apart and the second and third about six months. These are really close, so the impact was maybe much greater than an average conjunction, especially as Saturn was so strong in his own sign, its deadliness and malefism bolstered by Pluto the dark lord of things unseen. The outer planets can only be viewed through telescopes, so correpondingly that which is viewed through a microscope or through a magnifying lens is under the influence of the outers. It is a very interesting period of history as far as the outbreak of and progress of viruses are concerned.
I understand that some diseases break out when Saturn/Pluto were not conjunct, but for the time being I'm only interested in those that did, then at the end of that stage I can explore connections between those that occured on or a little after the conjunction. I feel there would be something about these that make them different.
My hunch original hunch was that the '82 conjunction may have had something to do with the discovery of HIV, for reasons explained. So I was very intrigued to find that at earlier conjunctions, much stronger in Capricorn, had caused viral epidemics to flare up the world over. I found this connection to the outbreak of a virus intriguing. HIV is a much more subtle virus, it does not manifest in the way that Saturn did in Capricorn, but as it occured in Libra, where Saturns expression was more insidious than obvious, and in a venereal domain. The 1914/15 conjunctions occured in Cardinal Earth, so the diseases ravaged their victims physically and painfully. The '82 conjunction occured in Cardinal Air, and like air the disease was something unnoticable and unseen, it's effect being psychologically ravaging.
I was interested to see that there was an outbreak of smallpox in New York in 1947. Was this before or after the conjunction date? I think there might be some sort of trend between the outbreaks that occur under the conjunctions inparticular. I just need more examples. I'll keep posted.
I know what you mean about other planets and how they may be involved. I think it's too early to look into that until we can trace the specific discovery or start dates of things that occured beneath the conjunctions which symbolically resonate with the planets involved. The look for connections.

Thanks for helping,

Draco

Light
09-08-2005, 06:58 AM
Hi Draco

I understand you were only looking at the conjunctions - I only posted my general findings. Not at lot, I admit. I just think were're both coming form this at different angles - the outcome should be the same. :)

I'll look into the smallpox outbreaks a bit deeper and see what was happening. There may be a trend, there may not. But it is interesting that they have occurred 'around' the times.

Keep you posted.

hel

Buai
09-08-2005, 09:15 AM
Draco

Look at Chirons' aspects to the oppositions & conjunctions of Pluto and Saturn on the dates (years) you've mentioned.
I know, Chiron's not so much known, but it is a major influence in what you're researching here.

If you want to get closer to the dates when "things" were really close for these issues, look at Mars' aspects to the opposition, square or conjunction at the time, he will clarify the timing of all this.
I don't have my Ephemeris with me at the moment, but I looked at the dates yesterday, and Chiron was "challenging" all the contacts except the 1931 contacts, in which it was Trine.
Didn't good things happen at that time in regard to your research?

In the 60's Chiron was in Pisces conjunct Saturn opposite Pluto.
Neptune went into Scorpio ('58-'59,can't remember) and blew the concept of the "ideal relationship" (Libra-Neptune) out of "Fonzies world" and into free debauchery, to the "sex, drugs, and rock and roll" era...

Eventually we get...HIV & AIDS, a manifestaion of a combination of things.
Saturn in Pisces can be the "manifestation of the unseen": a relatively material force that can not be "bound", "identified" or "limited", (pisces) but is real enuff to have a huge effect on the "status" of the "material plane".
Being "malific", is only qualified because of it's relationship to Pluto.

It "could" have been the initiation of a new understanding or wisdom regarding how our world "can/could" become, but with Pluto & Chiron there, and the destiny which prevails and "needs" to actualise, we had to have HIV & AIDS, because we couldn't handle "free will" in regard to our sexual predisposition.
Abuse it - loose it!

It's a vain attempt to put Pluto (raw power) in our hip pockets
(or pants!)...the power is meant to "nourish the whole", not be abused for personal gratification or glory.
Pluto gets very nasty when that is the case, as we can no doubt all see now..?

The longer we take to realise and respect the purpose and power of Pluto (and Sedna...), the more we will need (and attract) the lessons inherent in what is necessary to gain wisdom in regard to the application of of such.
Why not? We could blow the place up in the press of a button, no?
Sorry, here I go...raving already!!!
It's ludicrous to think we can just "keep on keeping on"!?
Don't you guys think?
Perhaps I should go take a sleeping pill?? and join the others...

Global warming!! Hello!!!!!

Light
09-08-2005, 08:07 PM
Hi Draco

The 1947 Smallpox epidemic started with the first case on Feb 24. The public health services were officially noted on April 4th. So its not in line with the conjunction - 7 deg apart.

The 1962 outbreak started in March sometime, so did the 1953 Tadmorden, 1977 Yugoslavia and the 1780 New South Wales. Apart from epidemics occuring in 6 or 12 year cycles, thats the only other correlation I can see at the moment. If its a 12 year cycle - is that Jupiter? I'll look into the planetary placements a bit more later.

Hi Buai

It's interesting you mentioned Chiron....

The first ( I think) epidemic of Ebola ( in the Sudan and Zaire) occurred around the time Chiron was discovered. Again the outbreaks are (mostly) in the 1st 3 months of the year. i can see the correlation with pathogenic outbreaks in the northern hemisphere (ie the weather warming), but South?

Back to Chiron: I'm still a noddy when it comes to this and don't have an ephemeris for chiron, but

Is there a correlation with Chiron changing signs and the outbreaks in Africa? (1976, 1979, 1994, 1996 and 2003). Point me in the direction to find out, please.

Also: [/In the 60's Chiron was in Pisces conjunct Saturn opposite Pluto.]

Wasn't Saturn was in Aquarius and Jupiter conjunct Pisces, in the early 60's, pre 64? And Jupiter moving into Aires just before? Or am I getting my glyphs confused? :? I really do have trouble with these two, they seem to mirror invert and I can't tell them apart! Or I need glasses. :oops:


Draco: I discovered the 1st recorded sample of HIV was taken in the Democratic Republic of Congo in 1959 (www.bbc.co.uk/health

Bye for now

hel

Draco
09-08-2005, 08:40 PM
Hi Buai and Hel,

I've found something really intriguing.

The first known case of Spanish Flu was noted in a soldier at Fort Riley, Kansas, USA on the 11th March, 1918 (noon).

The first known case of SARS or 'bird flu' was noted in the Quangdong province of Southern China, on the 11th of November 2002 (noon).

I looked for the incidents of the first reported case of Ebola, but all I could get was the year '76, no date as yet.

I found that the first noted case of HIV was in Los Angeles, California, USA, on the 5th June 1981 in five men (noon). The virus was not officially named and announced until 1983, but when these cases were noted, this was the first official occurance of the virus in the West.

The Spanish Flu and SARS charts are very interesting. In both charts, Uranus is upon the 25th degree of Aquarius. Also in both charts, the Sun and Mercury are in conjuction in water signs and around the MC. The similarities are even more interesting because both SARS and SF are different strains of the same virus.

I wonder if you know of any other forms of influenza, for which the first noted case of which could be determined. How about when Aquarius was last on the 25th degree of Aquarius prior to 1918? The Summer of 1834?

Draco :wink:

Anonymous
09-09-2005, 06:59 AM
Hi Both

I haven't found a date for the first Ebola Virus as yet, but the 2003 outbreak sarted on 4 Jan in the Kele Region of Gabon, 16 Jan in Mekambo and there was another suspect on 5th Feb, forgot where.

The 1999 outbreak started on May 3. I think Kiwilk, but not sure.

Can anyone ACG these continents? Is there a theme that way?

Interestingly, Diptheria killed 80% of children under 10 ibetween 1735-70 (Wikkipedia) and the Bacterium was isolated in 1915, around our conjunction time.

Also: 1918/19 there was a major flu epidemic in Wales. Killed hundreds. Does this tie in with your other 'flu's'?

bye for now

hel

Buai
09-12-2005, 02:42 AM
Hi U2

Yep, Saturn was in Auarius pre '64.
I thought you were researching Saturn/Pluto contacts?

In 1965 (& '66), Saturn and Chiron were cnj in Pisces...opposite Pluto AND Uranus in Virgo.

I'm sure you know, that when a Planet is discovered it heralds the onset of it's qualities, Pluto was discovered as the Atom was split, then the "Bomb" was dropped, for instance. Chiron was Dicovered in '78 (?), in early Taurus...

I'm not up with any of the "Global Medical History" you two are discussing, but here are the relative transists of Chiron at the times you mentioned Hel141...seems that Chirons presence has had an impact?

In 1975/76 Chiron was in Aries squaring Saturn in Cancer.
Chiron went into Taurus in April '77.

!994/95 were the next years (a rekindling of the 1965/66 energy?) Chiron and Saturn were connected, opposing through Virgo and Pisces respectivley.

In August 1996 there was a grand square between Saturn(Aries) - Chiron(Libra) - Jupiter(Capricorn) - Mars(Cancer).
That occured 1 month after Venus had finished a Retro phase in Gemini(June) - Where I moved state to, right at that time, there was an unprecendented amount of car, and air accidents that resulted in many deaths.
Mars went through Gemini for the month running up to the grand square, (July) them joined it in August...

2001/2, Saturn was in Gemini opposite Pluto in Sag.
2003/04, Saturn was in Cancer opposite Chiron in Capricorn off and on.
Plus, April 2003, Mars was in Capricorn cnj Chiron, planting a seed?

In August 1959 Venus went Retro in Virgo, and was cnj Sun at 8Virgo on Sept 1st - Pluto was at 4Virgo. Venus went down to 4Virgo as Mercury went up to 4Virgo, to cnj Pluto, on Sept 8th...Chiron(Aqu) was in a broad opposition to Uranus(Leo) during the time, and got within a couple of degrees end of Oct. Same time Jupiter was in Sag, squaring Pluto in Virgo.
There were alot of "supportive aspects" at the time, no doubt enabling the establishment and seeding of HIV, and it's inevitable proliferation.

Hel141, I have no idea where you can get that info online, you should be able to find Chiron mentioned at least once a month in your ephemeris.

Leave it to you two

Light
09-12-2005, 05:39 AM
Hi Buai


I thought you were researching Saturn/Pluto contacts?


Yes, probably were. I guess Draco still is, only I get sidetracked and go off at a tangent sometimes. :( Sorry, change that to frequently!

Thanks for the chiron infomation. I'll digest it further when I'm a bit more awake. Night shift! Don't worry, a new ephemeris- a decent one with legible print - is top of my list.



I'm sure you know, that when a Planet is discovered it heralds the onset of it's qualities,

Time to start monitoring and looking for trends with these new ones, then!

Bye for now, and thanks again.

hel

Anonymous
02-08-2006, 05:07 PM
Hey, Draco

Thank you so much for starting this discussion. I had just posted on another forum on this site when I saw your comments... They made a lot of sense to me. Please read my post and let me know your thoughts... Thank you.

My son was born in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil on October 17, 1982 and when he was 3 months old he had to have emergency surgery and received a blood transfusion which gave him both the HIV and the Hepatitis C viruses. Could anyone look at his chart and tell me if there is anything that shows something like that happening in his life??? I am still trying to understand why such a disgrace would happen to any human being at all, unless it is written in the starts... Thanks for any light on this subject. :(

Arian Maverick
02-08-2006, 05:33 PM
My son was born in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil on October 17, 1982 and when he was 3 months old he had to have emergency surgery and received a blood transfusion which gave him both the HIV and the Hepatitis C viruses. Could anyone look at his chart and tell me if there is anything that shows something like that happening in his life??? I am still trying to understand why such a disgrace would happen to any human being at all, unless it is written in the starts... Thanks for any light on this subject.

I am so sorry about your son's situation...although I have no experience with the HIV virus, I know what it is like to question the fate of a loved one, wondering why things had to be so. My only brother is autistic, and although scientific studies say that such a disability is determined at birth, he had a very bad reaction to a mercury-laden vaccine after which he never fully recovered. Please know that although we may appear to be nameless and faceless people, you have the complete support of this community.

Do you have a birth time, by any chance? Readings tend to be much more accurate when the exact moment of birth is known...if this information is not available, perhaps someone can help us do a kind of trial-and-error test to see which chart seems to match your son's personality.

Wishing you and your family the best,
Aquarian Maverick

Draco
02-21-2006, 12:52 AM
Do you have any data guest?

Draco. :wink:

Arian Maverick
02-21-2006, 03:02 PM
Well, she told us that her son was born in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil on October 17, 1982...but without a birth time, it's difficult to construct an accurate chart :?

Aquarian Maverick

Natasha
02-26-2006, 01:05 AM
Indeed Pluto Saturn conjunction is a very powerful image. Some say those born with it in 1947 carry the collective memory of atrocities of WW2

For instance during their life people born in 1947 with the Pluto Saturn may feel compelled to speak out against anything in society which reminds them of what happened in WW2 with the Jews etc.

Some astrologers feel that Pluto’s ingress into Scorpio heralded the diagnosis of AIDS. Pluto / Hades only wanted on lover or wife (Persephone). Unlike his brothers who had many many lovers.
Scorpio in its archetypal form cannot tolerate promiscuity. Unlike when Pluto was in Libra (the time of compulsive relating) when the old restrictions to relating in love were overthrown. As soon as Pluto moved into his own sign this changed dramatically mostly due to AIDS.

Arian Maverick
06-09-2006, 01:39 AM
You know, some of the coincidences in my life make me slightly ridiculous, as if the higher energies considered me to be a particularly dense individual unable to recognize subtle cues. Nevertheless, they certainly found a way to capture my attention!

I was exploring my Favorite Places list, as I do from time to time, and rediscovered a folder titled Health & Fitness, in which I had organized many links from the Health & Fitness (http://www.about.com/health/) section of About.com (http://www.about.com/). Although I am uncertain how long this featured article has been highlighted on the site and how long it will remain, I find it curious that I should accidentally stumble upon the site during the week of the 25th Anniversary of "the first cases of AIDS...in gay men in Los Angeles and New York." This has been a key medical issue representative of Pluto in Scorpio, during which I was born.

Hopefully,
The History of HIV/AIDS (http://aids.about.com/od/newlydiagnosed/a/hivtimeline.htm) will inspire more discussion...I believe this was the intention of whatever entity guided me to this article at this time ;)

Arian Maverick

Frisiangal
06-09-2006, 09:50 AM
Hopefully,
The History of HIV/AIDS (http://aids.about.com/od/newlydiagnosed/a/hivtimeline.htm) will inspire more discussion...I believe this was the intention of whatever entity guided me to this article at this time ;)



Seeing the first date mentioned in the article, 1959, raised a thought that I have long had regarding AIDS.....that it was partially influenced by Neptune's transit through Scorpio. As I understood it, the disease is the result of a virus that breaks down the immune system. Anything undetectable, including viruses, fall under the rulership of Neptune, and Scorpio is associated with sexuality. The man concerned was said to have died in 1959, which means that the virus was at home in his body to do the damage for much longer. Neptune entered Scorpio in the mid- 50's.
My mind goes back a step further. If Neptune in Scorpio brought about the first mysterious death of what is now known as AIDS, maybe the virus actually entered and influenced the physical body during Neptune's transit of Virgo and was transferred to another through relationships when it transited Libra. This takes us way back to the late 1920's. Laying dormant ?

The disease is transferred through the sexual act, which is not Neptune's realm. One would think of Mars in this respect? The barriers of the immune system fall under Capricorn and Saturn. Out of interest I looked in my ephemeris to see what aspects they made when Neptune entered Virgo.
There was a Mars in Gemini square Saturn in Sagittarius just weeks before Neptune entered Virgo. Gemini relationships detrimental to Sagittarian health issues? As the aspect was a square, I looked back to see when and where the preceeding conjunction fell. Is it just pure coincidence that the Mars-Saturn conjunction preceeding Neptune's ingress into Virgo was on 21 degrees of SCORPIO late 1925? The incubation period? (Uranus was on 21 degrees Pisces). The same sign conjunction, on 7 degr. Scorpio, occured again in 1954, and again on 16 degr. Scorpio in early 1984 within weeks of Neptune entering Capricorn ! The next conjunction on 17 degr. Scorpio is in 2014, inconjunct to a retrograde Uranus in Aries.

All hypothetical, of course :).

Although there have been successful medical breakthroughs in keeping AIDS
under control, would anyone care to hypothetically speculate when, and if, the cure will be found, astrologically speaking? By treating like with like, would Neptune produce a cure when there's a trine to Saturn, as in January 2012? Or will it take something like Pluto to totally annihilate and destroy Neptune's virus and generate the cure? The two only meet up in a retrograde sextile for a very short time..... in 2024.:(

F.

Frisiangal
06-09-2006, 10:00 AM
There was a Mars in Gemini square Saturn in Sagittarius just weeks before Neptune entered Virgo. Gemini relationships detrimental to Sagittarian health issues? As the aspect was a square,
F.

Whoops! That should have read OPPOSITION.
I tried to EDIT but couldn't get it back onto page. How do I do that, please?

F.

Francesca
06-09-2006, 01:46 PM
A note on HIV and smallpox: HIV is thought to have been spread through Africa by reusing the needles used to eradicate smallpox. There were not enough needles to vaccinate all, no one knew about HIV, so people vaccinated a lot of folks with the same needles. That is one reason the disease seems to have such a firm hold on the continent. This is certainly in line with the nature of the two planets.

Also, did I miss any reference to polio? Salk was a Scorpio, ruled by Pluto.