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Arian Maverick
07-02-2006, 07:38 PM
This series of articles has been inspired by the success and popularity of the thread Any other Capricorn Moons out there? (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2078), particularly Lunar Pisces' most recent post about the moon's debility. With Manuu's suggestions for forum improvement still fresh in my mind, I sent Radu a personal message requesting his permission to "create a series of threads discussing the influence of various planets in dignity and debility."

Before we begin our discussions on this new subthread, I recommend that anyone unfamiliar with planetary dignity and debility read this article (http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dignities.html) courtesy of Skyscript (http://www.skyscript.co.uk/index.html).

Radu has also requested that I upload an image of Ptolemy's table of Essential Dignities, which I have briefly summarized below:

http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/%7Esueward/images/ptoltab.jpg

Rulership:

Mars in Aries
Venus in Taurus
Mercury in Gemini
Moon in Cancer
Sun in Leo
Mercury in Virgo
Venus in Libra
Mars in Scorpio
Jupiter in Sagittarius
Saturn in Capricorn
Saturn in Aquarius
Jupiter in Pisces

Exaltation:


Sun in Aries
Moon in Taurus
North Node in Gemini
Jupiter in Cancer
Mercury in Virgo
Saturn in Libra
South Node in Sagittarius
Mars in Capricorn
Venus in Pisces

Detriment:


Venus in Aries
Mars in Taurus
Jupiter in Gemini
Saturn in Cancer
Saturn in Leo
Jupiter in Virgo
Mars in Libra
Venus in Scorpio
Mercury in Sagittarius
Moon in Capricorn
Sun in Aquarius
Mercury in Pisces

Fall:


Saturn in Aries
Mars in Cancer
Venus in Virgo
Sun in Libra
Moon in Scorpio
Jupiter in Capricorn
Mercury in Pisces

Arian Maverick

holly
07-03-2006, 01:08 AM
I am very interested in this discussion, as both my sun and moon are in detriment. That's a bit depressing! Actually, reading that article you linked to about Dignities & debilities, my chart overall is in pretty bad shape. :(

Great thread idea, I can't wait to see what people have to say about this topic!

Radu
07-03-2006, 12:42 PM
Hey Holly, don't feel depressed! there is nothing to feel sorry for. It's just you!
Look, I think planets in detriment may not have the resources to perform splendidly by themselves, in an obvious manner, but they surely know how to make use of available resources, enabling the chart owner to do pretty well in life, even without all that luck or talent.

I'm sure David didn't have Mars in Capricorn as his opponent Goliath might have had, instead he used the available martian energy wisely
and managed to win the fight.

Cheer up! :)

devalight
07-03-2006, 09:17 PM
I thought that Mercury was in its Detriment in Pisces and in its Fall in Leo. Maybe I have the wrong information. I would be happy if Mercury was not in its Fall in Leo.

Devalight

Arian Maverick
07-03-2006, 09:41 PM
Perhaps I need to double-check my sources...:rolleyes:

Arian Maverick

carnna
07-04-2006, 06:34 PM
The rule(s) for fall & detriment are:
sign opposite rulership is detriment
sign opposite exaltation is fall.
simple.

carnna
07-04-2006, 06:41 PM
notice also that there are no exaltations in leo, aquarius, gemini, sagittarius & scorpio; therefore no fall's (with exception of moon in scorpio being opposite taurus moon exaltation).
(also, some say n.node exalted in gemini & s.node in sag).

astrobhadauria
02-28-2007, 03:59 AM
Rulership:
Mars in Aries:-If Saturn in fourth,damage rulership.
Venus in Taurus:-If Saturn or Rahu have conection rulership damage.
Mercury in Gemini:-Always like sliped talk if Sun with Mercury.
Moon in Cancer:-If Rahu have conection,there are only smoke in life.
Sun in Leo:-If with Venus not "Grrrrrrrrrr" but "Miaaaaaaaaaaaaau"
Mercury in Virgo:-If with Mars full day work and results Zero.
Venus in Libra:-If Mars in 4th only damaging of beauty.
Mars in Scorpio:-Killed to friends,and youngers.
Jupiter in Sagittarius:-Where is family and where is family.
Saturn in Capricorn:-Not require any Suggestions.
Saturn in Aquarius:-Always busy in making property.
Jupiter in Pisces:-Everything is good,not require more.
Exaltation:

Sun in Aries:-Only one son damage all prestige from socity.
Moon in Taurus:-Child of two mothers.
North Node in Gemini:-TV media and computer works.
Jupiter in Cancer:-Busy in prepairing cloths.
Mercury in Virgo:-Sweet talk.
Saturn in Libra:-Partnership but too late.
South Node in Sagittarius:-Only one son,for maintain family works.
Mars in Capricorn:-Hard and order talk.
Venus in Pisces:-Fate person,totel works by life partner,luxerious life.
Detriment:

Venus in Aries:-Always under life partner.
Mars in Taurus:-Always elder in family.
Jupiter in Gemini:-Working by Knowledge.
Saturn in Cancer:-Always dout in mind.
Saturn in Leo:-slow education,ruling by female child.
Jupiter in Virgo:-Docter can not scane which illness.
Mars in Libra:-Two alive life partner.
Venus in Scorpio:-No values of life mate.
Mercury in Sagittarius:-No values of talk.
Moon in Capricorn:-Mother is ruling person in family.
Sun in Aquarius:-No Values of father in family.
Mercury in Pisces:-Always mind in circle.
Fall:

Saturn in Aries:-Damaging works by own mind,limited work.
Mars in Cancer:-Operation of past.
Venus in Virgo:-Weak life partner,more expenses in medical.
Sun in Libra:-Negative thinking,ruling by lifemate.
Moon in Scorpio:-Widow mother.
Jupiter in Capricorn:-Father is only one in family.
Mercury in Pisces:-Circle in Mind.
Arian Maverick[/quote]
Thank you Arian Maverick,Your name and fame always in top of your socity and also in country,it is the effects of 1-4.giving light to Dark.

Themis
03-01-2007, 05:56 PM
hi, can anybody gives some explanations about the "Triplicity", i saw Lehman uses the "mixed triplicity", does anybody know why is that?

astro.teacher
03-08-2007, 10:46 AM
A Triplicity are Planets that agree in the same Element. For example the Signs Aries, Leo and Sagittarius are considered "fiery" or part of the fire Element, their rulers are Jupiter, Sun and Mars make up the Fiery Triplicity. When there is a mixing in a chart of Jupiter, Sun or Mars together, there is a certain agreement between them because they are of the same Element.

astrobhadauria
03-08-2007, 06:05 PM
Dear
I tell you about the effects of the five elements: space, air, fire, water, and earth. Space, air, fire, water, and earth are ruled by Guru(Jupiter), Shani(Saturn), Mangal(Mars), Shukra(Venus), and Buddha(Mercury) respectively. The effects are experienced in proportion to the intensity of the various elements.The person will have a temperament according to the greater strength of the graha at the time of birth. Guru, Shani, Mangal, Shukra, and Buddha will respectively give special (ethereal), airy (windy), fiery, watery, and earthy temperament. If all of them or many of these grahas have equal strength, the temperament will be of a mixed character. If Surya(Sun) is endowed with strength, the person will have a fiery temperament. If Chandra(Moon) is strong, the person will have a watery temperament. All the grahas in the course of their Dasa(Time of Star), endow the person with bodily luster relating to their elements. The characteristic features of the person with fiery temperament are: distressed with hunger, restless, lean and thin bodied, learned, consumes a large quantity of food, is sharp, fair complexioned, and proud. The characteristic features of a person with earthy temperament are: emits fragrance of camphor and lotus, is fond of luxuries, comforts and enjoyments and is permanently happy, forgiving, and has a deep voice like a lion.The characteristic features of a person with an ethereal temperament are: acquainted with seismology, an expert in diplomacy, brilliant, learned, unmasked face, and long stature.The characteristic features of a person with a watery temperament are: lustrous, can sustain burdens, is soft spoken, kingly, has many friends, and is learned.The characteristic features of a person with airy temperament are: charitable, full of anger, fair complexioned, fond of wandering, victorious over enemies, king, and has a lean physique.When the fire element is predominant in a person, that is, the strength of Surya or Mangal is predominant, his face and body exhibit a gold like luster and he has pleasant eyes. He achieves success in all his ventures, is victorious over his enemies and gets gain of wealth. When the earth element is predominant, that is, if Buddha's strength is predominant, the body of the person emits various kinds of fragrances. His nails, hair and teeth are clean. He gets gain of happiness and wealth and is religious minded.

Antikythera Mechanism
04-15-2007, 02:13 AM
Hello,
Can anyone tell me what a Peregene Planet is? When I look at a chart and I see the letter P with a value number with a negative beside it or nothing at all?
Thank you.
Jeff

astro.teacher
04-15-2007, 02:49 AM
Peregrine is when a Planet doesnt have any essential dignities in its placement. This placement is equal in malevolency to that of a Planet in its Detriment. The negative value is a ranking of its debiliting in the chart (-5).

Draco
04-15-2007, 05:17 AM
both my sun and moon are in detriment. That's a bit depressing! Actually, reading that article you linked to about Dignities & debilities, my chart overall is in pretty bad shape.

Receptions! Receptions! Receptions!

Look at the dignities of the luminaries, and see if any of those planets are also in the dignities of the Sun and the Moon. If you find that either of the luminaries are in beneficial reception, mixed or mutual, with another planet, and if this planet has dignity, then this describes the influence that can pull the detrimented planet out of it's unfortunate position.

There are few charts in which a badly debilitated planet has no other strength to draw upon from elsewhere in the chart via the web of receptions.

Receptions are completely ignored in most astrology today, and astrology is so very much the poorer because of it, but it doesn't need to be.

In fact, a debilitated planet does not have to be in actual reception to derive benefit from another planet, it's just better if the planet to which the detrimented planet appeals takes some interest in it's plight.

For example, I have a peregrine Mercury in Libra, but fortunately, it isn't all so bad for Mercury, as Mercury exalts Saturn, and Saturn is also in Libra and is in Mercury's term, so Saturn takes a bit of interest in Mercury's situation, and so is inclined to respond to Mercury's appeal for help via the mixed reception. Saturn is able to help Mercury even more in that he is the Lord of the Geniture. So when my troublesome Mercury causes me to go askew in life, I know that I can draw upon my powerful Saturnian qualities, to kick Mercury's **** into gear. To derive benefit via receptions in this way however, usually requires will and concious application, if the two planets are in aspect however, the exchange is more automatic.

Astrobhadauria,

Mars in Scorpio:-Killed to friends,and youngers.

What does this mean? I am a Mars in Scorpio native.

Peregrine is when a Planet doesnt have any essential dignities in its placement.

True.

This placement is equal in malevolency to that of a Planet in its Detriment.

I disagree. You have just said yourself that a peregrine planet is a planet that does not have any essential dignities in it's placement, but this is certainly not equal to a planet that is as essentially undignified as it can possibly be.

A planet in it's peregrine state, it has been said, given the opportunity, tends towards malice. This is a far cry from being in detriment, or being comparable to detriment.

Lilly equates peregrination with detriment in that he gives each a numerical value of -5, but then, what is the point in making a distinction between the two debilities? I would agree with Frawley, who gives peregrination a value of -3, which makes more sense, because then we have a sliding scale of essential debility, detriment -5, fall -4 and peregrine -3.

Looking at it like this, peregrine is about as bad as triplicity is good.

Personally, I do wonder why, that if peregrination means 'no dignity', why it is not given a value of '0'.

Antikythera

The word 'peregrine', originates from the Latin 'pereger', meaning 'beyong the borders', and 'ager' meaning, 'land'. So a peregrine planet is literally a wanderer in an unfamiliar environment, outside of it's natural territory, and cannot relate to the position it is in.

A peregrine planet having no dignities of it's own, is strongly influenced by those planets with which it is configured, by aspect or reception. The lack of dignity of the peregrine state can be alleviated somewhat by accidental dignity, or by aspect or reception, preferably both, with a more essentially fortified planet.

jagetoile
06-25-2007, 07:18 PM
deleted post.

Sag Moon
06-25-2007, 09:11 PM
AT
Pergrine planets are those that make none of the Major aspects to other planets if I am not mistaken.

" is simply that an unaspected planet (no Ptolemaic aspect) can be called peregrine.
Do we still need this system of dignities and debilitations? We do have the outer planets now, and a deep psychological understanding of behavioral archetypes developed throughout this last century. I suggest strongly that we do not gain much analytical benefit for the Classical struggle involved with measuring essential dignities and indignities.
"From Noel Tyl Analitical Technics-see below

When a planet is in Perigrine it takes on a wild natue and takes on a life of it's own.Like running wild with no specific control to tame it. Not a bad thing for many as there are painters and such that need to have liberal ideas that can be projected outward.

There are those that have several planets peregrine also.

http://mani.lunarservers.com/~noeltyl3/techniques/991130t.html

Antikythera Mechanism
06-25-2007, 09:33 PM
Hi There,
Intresting about the topics. How would you interpret the Peregrine Planets in this chart of Essencial Dignities. Is it a good thing that a Peregrine Planet is
-8 for example it that good? Is +5 better for example. I am a bit confused.
Thanks,
Jeff

Kaiousei no Senshi
06-25-2007, 10:27 PM
Pergrine planets are those that make none of the Major aspects to other planets if I am not mistaken.

That's just unaspected, unless it doesn't make anymore aspects before leaving a Sign, then it becomes Void of Course

Is it a good thing that a Peregrine Planet is
-8 for example it that good? Is +5 better for example. I am a bit confused.

Depending on what school of thought you followed, a peregrine planet wouldn't have any score, or it'd be -5, or it'd be -3. The more + the better.

Draco
06-25-2007, 11:38 PM
Idiots like Tyl notwithstanding, a peregrine planet is a planet with no essential dignity, always was, always will be, end of story.

An unaspected planet is an unaspected planet, simple as.

Hi Jag.

This really makes a lot of sense to me. i've been always told that the dignity/debility stuff was only for horary---they did not apply to a natal chart.

Not at all. If you explore nativities using the full scheme of dignities and debilities, and pay attention to receptions, not just aspects, you'll find this extremely enriching to your astrology. ;)

jagetoile
06-27-2007, 01:33 PM
deleted post.

OzAstrologer
07-08-2007, 02:28 AM
Ah, the ongoing struggle between Tyl and the non-Tyl's!!

You know, Noel Tyl may be something of a rogue, but so what?? So was Jesus. Just because someone shakes things up with new ideas is no reason to disparage the man.

What Tyl does is to drag astrology out of the murky mud its been in for centuries and help to clarify things for many, many people, such as myself. Its an aid to learning, certainly not the be all and end all. Surely there's no such thing in such a vast field as astrology! But it IS to the point, and very handy for getting to grips with astrology.

I certainly wouldn't recommend using ONLY his methods - they need to be supplemented with other, more grounded methods. But certanly they helped me and added a new energised dimension to my study, with fascinating new concepts like the quindecile and peregrine.

It amazes and disappoints me that even in astrology there can be those who feel the need to name call others. Sorry but that's just juvenile in my opinion.

Personally I think its a very good definition of peregrine!

Some of the discussion of this thread is very confusing, esp. using Vedic astrology as this noble tradition has so many rules and variations that someone trying to learn simply cannot get to grips with it!!

Surely we can all agree that while there may be only one mountain, there are in truth many approaches to the mountain. Come on people!!! If you are secure in your own beliefs there is no need to denigrate others now is there?

starlink
07-11-2007, 03:49 PM
After reading Ozzi's remarks, I decided to un-delete my thread. I agree completely with Oz. Tyl is not an idiot at all. I find him most intriguing and original. I very much like his book about the Solar Arc predictions. Fascinating. Indeed, you must never base your knowledge solely on one Astrologer's writings, but you can use it for additional insight. I personally love Stephen Arroyo but would also recommend others because every writer can have a different input and that's what makes is all so interesting, whether you totally agree with it or not.

Earlier on I wanted to ask if Arian Maverick maybe could put a list together with planets in their peregrine signs. It would be easy as an overview. I always have used planets in detriment, fall, exhaltation and peregrine in natal astrology. I actually never heard about this being used only in horary astrology. Not in my school it was!

astrobhadauria
07-11-2007, 05:52 PM
Dharma (Religion) Artha (Physical Money) Kama (Family,children,life mate) Moksha (The purpose of life),these four parts of the Birth Chart,are usefull details about life.1st,5th,9th,arerelated to Dharam,2nd,6th,and 10th related to Artha,3rd,7th,11th are related to Kama,4th,8th,and 12th related to Mokhsa.There are Dharma opposite with Kama,and Artha opposite with Moksha.

Kaiousei no Senshi
07-11-2007, 06:57 PM
Earlier on I wanted to ask if Arian Maverick maybe could put a list together with planets in their peregrine signs.

This request would be quite a burden as planets are only peregrine in particular degrees of particular signs. A peregrine planet is not in Domicile, Exhaltion, Triplicty, Term, Face, Detriment, or Fall.

starlink
07-12-2007, 03:30 PM
Oh, I did not know that they would have to be in particular degrees only of a certain sign. In that case it would indeed be a lot of work. But in Ptolemy's table of essential dignities and debilities, there is also mentioned that the Sun is exalted at 19° of Aries, Moon 3° of Taurus etc. but I think we always say: Sun is exalted in Aries, Moon in Taurus etc. not really taking notice of the degree. How about that than?

jagetoile
07-12-2007, 03:55 PM
deleted post.

Kaiousei no Senshi
07-12-2007, 04:42 PM
Oh, I did not know that they would have to be in particular degrees only of a certain sign.

Oh yes, Luna, for example, is in her Face in 20-29 degrees of Aquarius. She is peregrine throughout the first 20 degrees of the Sign, though.

Of course, you're to assume there's no mutual reception, but that's a different story entirely.

Lunar Pisces
07-12-2007, 05:28 PM
Draco - I had respect for you up until I read you calling Tyl an idiot. If you're as well versed in astrology as you act, you'd know that peregrine is one of those terms that has more than one definition for a long time. Such multiple and soemtimes confusing definitions are not uncommon in a field like astrology, where several different traditions have developed concurrently to one another.

The term peregrine simply means "wandering" in the classical sense, and different astrologers over the centuries defined a "wandering planet" by different standards, without there ever really being a consensus. In modern astrology two definitions remain - one as unaspected and the other as lacking essential diginities yet not in debility (that last distinction you forgot to add).

If you prefer one definition over the other, fine. I personally don't care. But don't presume your choice is the be all, end all, the-discussion-stops-here answer and that history ought to be rewritten based on your opinion. Anyone with experience doing astrology (or anything else) knows such ahistorical dogmatic convictions just don't hold water.

Kaiousei no Senshi
07-12-2007, 05:50 PM
I had respect for you up until I read you calling Tyl an idiot.

I find people's reactions to having their authors criticized to be hilarious.

I assure you, if you are broad-minded enough, you well see how astrology works like that too. We may want a grand trine to be prefectly aspected within our little orb system. But nature doesn't care and may at any time turn around to show favor to a less exact grand trine as it sees fit. It's our job then to look for nature's reasons for doing so, and not blind ourselves with our short-sighted expectations and consistencies. The same will hold true of everything in astrology, including things like dignities and debilities.

Well, this thought may indeed go against the ideas of astrology that state the more exact the aspect the more prominent it is. While a loose Grand Trine is still favorable, the tighter the orb the 'better' (for lack of a better term). I would love to see an example of how a loose Grand Trine is any more 'naturally favored' than a tight Grand Trine, or how any Grand Trine can be shown more favor by nature for that matter. How is this in anyway similar to the dignities and debilities system? We shouldn't 'blind' ourselves by saying "Luna in Capricorn is weak"? Well...it is. That's all there is to it.

OzAstrologer
07-13-2007, 01:00 AM
I find people's reactions to having their authors criticized to be hilarious.

Well, this thought may indeed go against the ideas of astrology that state the more exact the aspect the more prominent it is. While a loose Grand Trine is still favorable, the tighter the orb the 'better' (for lack of a better term). I would love to see an example of how a loose Grand Trine is any more 'naturally favored' than a tight Grand Trine, or how any Grand Trine can be shown more favor by nature for that matter. How is this in anyway similar to the dignities and debilities system? We shouldn't 'blind' ourselves by saying "Luna in Capricorn is weak"? Well...it is. That's all there is to it.

Firstly, KnS, people are allowed to have their say.

Secondly, my point was and I thank Lunar Pisces for their input, is that we don't have to be blind to the past, just not hamstrung by it. If people feel the need to follow astrological rules slavishly then I;m afraid they just need to get outside away from the books and the computer and get a life.

Kaiousei no Senshi
07-13-2007, 03:22 AM
Secondly, my point was and I thank Lunar Pisces for their input, is that we don't have to be blind to the past, just not hamstrung by it. If people feel the need to follow astrological rules slavishly then I;m afraid they just need to get outside away from the books and the computer and get a life.

I'm sorry you find the rules of Tradition and the past 'slavish'. Not that your passion in standing up for the critized author spoke of 'slave' behavior or anything. :rolleyes:

I don't see a need to change a system that works. The age of the system is not of concern, simply how well it does in what it is supposed to do. Don't fix it if it isn't broken, as they say. If you do, then please, be the one to create a new, better system than just someone who complains about it.

The topic of this thread is the discussion of planetary dignity and debility, not 'Tyl vs Non-Tyl'. This is kind of ironic, in the sense that the only real discussion that can be had off of this topic is the understanding of the mentality beind the assignments or other clearings up of misunderstandings.

starlink
07-18-2007, 04:26 PM
Thank you Jag for the link. Very nice of you.

delilah4
07-20-2008, 05:38 PM
I'm confused.

As a leo who has sun, merc, venus & jup in Leo - how come none are exhaulted or anything in my sign?

Kaiousei no Senshi
07-21-2008, 12:19 AM
Sol has dignity and daytime Triplicity in Leo. Jupiter has night time Triplicty in Leo.

I'm not exactly sure what your question was, so I'm sorry if this wasn't so helpful for you. :-S

delilah4
07-21-2008, 04:23 AM
Oh I was just going by the chart they had at the beginning of the thread listing where all the planets were exaulted etc... But none of the planets were listed for leo not even the sun. It says that the sun is exaulted in Aries so it confused me.

Is there a difference between triplicity in daytime and nightime? Is one better than the other?

Kaiousei no Senshi
07-21-2008, 04:40 AM
No, no planet is exalted in Leo. Sol is in domicile in Leo and exalted in Aries, that's two different things.

As for Triplicity rulers, there isn't a 'better' between night-time and day-time rulers. It's just they switch over after the sun sets.

astro.teacher
07-21-2008, 06:07 PM
Is there a difference between triplicity in daytime and nightime? Is one better than the other?

Yes, a Planet is strongest when it receives the Triplicity of its time. This means if Sol is in Aries, he is stronger if you were born during the day than if you were born during the night. Some may say that he receives no dignity of Triplicity at all in this point. This is the same for the dignity of House. All the Planets (excluding Sol and Luna) have diurnal and nocturnal Houses. When a diurnal Planet is its diurnal Sign in a diurnal chart it is most happy and more fortunate. If it is a nocturnal planet found in diurnal sign in a diurnal chart, it is less happy in this position. While it still receives dignity for being in its own House, the effects are not as strong as if it had been in its most happy state.

Kaiousei no Senshi
07-21-2008, 07:38 PM
Basically what astro.teacher is saying is that each of the five visible planets have two houses (or Signs) a daytime and a nighttime, this cooresponds with the gender of the Sign. The 'houses' of the planets are listed below:

Mercury: Day-time Gemini, Night-time Virgo. Mercury prefers Virgo.
Venus: Day-time Libra, Night-time Taurus. Venus as a feminine planet prefers her night-house of Taurus.
Mars: Day-time Aries, Night-time Scorpio. Masculine planet prefers his day-house.
Jupiter: Day-time Sagittarius, Night-time Pisces. Masculine planet prefers his day-house.
Saturn: Day-time Aquarius, Night-time Capricorn. Masculine planet prefers his day-house.

astro.teacher, I was wonder as to your preferance of triplicity rulers. Dorotheus or the one Lilly uses?

Night Sky
07-21-2008, 10:34 PM
How about Accidental Dignity?

Is it as good as Essential?:rolleyes:

astro.teacher
07-21-2008, 11:35 PM
astro.teacher, I was wonder as to your preferance of triplicity rulers. Dorotheus or the one Lilly uses?

I use Ptolemys table (the one which Lilly uses) however I havent really studied indepty Dorotheus' system so I cant be bias.

Nightsky,

How about Accidental Dignity?

Is it as good as Essential?

No its not. Accidental dignity is only second to Essential.

Night Sky
07-22-2008, 08:23 PM
I use Ptolemys table (the one which Lilly uses) however I havent really studied indepty Dorotheus' system so I cant be bias.

Nightsky,



No its not. Accidental dignity is only second to Essential.

Could you explain me why ???

Say Jupiter in SAG in the third as opposed to Jupiter in Virgo in the 1st house? OR in Gemini in the 9th? What are the differences here in the terms of dignity accidental and essential?

Thank you:)


p.s. It doesn`t exactly bother me whether one is better or the other... What I was after more was a distinction between the two, what the outcomes of different scenarios might be... Just to explore and understand.

Night Sky
07-22-2008, 08:32 PM
I just read your page on Dignities Astro.Teacher

What do you make of Peregrine planets?

astro.teacher
07-24-2008, 06:17 PM
Could you explain me why ???

Yes, the stars have more influence than invisible lines in the Heavens, therefore their influence on the Planets in those positions determine their happiness or unhappiness in that position.The power is stronger in the Essential dignities/debilities for this purpose.

Say Jupiter in SAG in the third as opposed to Jupiter in Virgo in the 1st house? OR in Gemini in the 9th? What are the differences here in the terms of dignity accidental and essential?

I assume you mean opposed to Mercury (having both House in Virgo and Gemini). Both Planets are Essentially dignified (maybe one more than the other depending on the degree). They are both powerful and influential in the chart. The opposition comes into effect when analyzing the relationships between these two Planets. If we find that one is Lord of the 3rd and the other the Lord of the 9th, we can clearly see there is contention betwen our siblings and their spouse (the 9th House being our siblngs 7th). The opposition shows us the relationship between these two aspects of our life. Although this really doesnt answer what you were looking for.

The accidental dignities/debilities, are dignities/debilities that happen ... by acciddent. They dont NEED to happen (except for the House placements). A Planet may or may not be in a specific aspect with Jupiter & etc. and if it is, it becomes more powerful. But the Essential dignities are ones that will ALWAYS happen. A Planet is either in one or the other (Dignity or Debility). Its "essential".

What do you make of Peregrine planets?

Peregrine Planets are the only exception to the rule I stated before. Peregrine Planets are in no Essential Dignities and thus are lost. Their powers are stripped from them and therefore receive a negative influence from it.

Night Sky
07-25-2008, 02:13 AM
Thanks Astro.Teacher,

Your answers make me question more though.

I recently met someone who has a natal chart with Jupiter in FALL (Virgo) Essentially debilitated, with the planet slow and Retrograde, however, this planet is in the first house making a trine to Venus another ACCIDENTAL dignity. This person exhibits all of the Joyful, enthusiastic bouyant characteristics of the planet to the point that you would call them Jupeterian, or Jovial.

So in my mind at least having this accidental dignity through being in the FIRST house, many of the traits are easy to see.

ON the other hand though and I am agreing with here now... Jupiter in Saggittarius by being in Essential dignity and although in a weak house, (third) and conjunct the South Node, (traditional debility by accident) is broad minded, lucky, and religiously inclined. The optimism though is hidden away slightly.

Essential dignity therefore comes first. But if it is hidden away in the 12th house, with no aspects? I think I might have to conclude that it is just not seen by people the way it would be done in the 1st house.


One more thing... Perigrine planets are better off than planets in detriment and fall right? I read somewhere that by being peregrine, a planet loses its MODERATION, and that was the precise word used, for both peregrine and detriment and fall.:rolleyes:

Kaiousei no Senshi
07-25-2008, 03:20 AM
Excuse me if I step in. :)

One more thing... Perigrine planets are better off than planets in detriment and fall right?

In some instances, yes. Lilly writes that peregrine planets suffer the same amount of damage as a planet in its detriment, this is something I don't necessarily agree with, and other authors don't agree with him about this either. Personally, I think of a peregrine planet as being completely at the whims of its environment. A fallen or detrimented planet is injured, while a peregrine planet is just getting lost in the winds of the chart.

astro.teacher
07-25-2008, 04:05 AM
Your answers make me question more though.

Im glad it got you thinking!! Thats a very good quality to have in Astrology, question everything! Because there IS an answer to it.

I recently met someone who has a natal chart with Jupiter in FALL (Virgo) Essentially debilitated, with the planet slow and Retrograde, however, this planet is in the first house making a trine to Venus another ACCIDENTAL dignity. This person exhibits all of the Joyful, enthusiastic bouyant characteristics of the planet to the point that you would call them Jupeterian, or Jovial.

So in my mind at least having this accidental dignity through being in the FIRST house, many of the traits are easy to see.

The person will always be Jovial, whether dignified or debilitated. You will find however that outside (or accidental) influences will make these Jovial qualities change. The trine to Venus must be Partile in order for it to be considered an Accidental dignity (meaning not above 17').

ON the other hand though and I am agreing with here now... Jupiter in Saggittarius by being in Essential dignity and although in a weak house, (third) and conjunct the South Node, (traditional debility by accident) is broad minded, lucky, and religiously inclined. The optimism though is hidden away slightly.

Being in the 3rd House, would give these significations to the significations of the 3rd (siblings, vain dreams, short travel, writing) more than to the individuals personality (which is shown by the Ascendant/Lord & etc.). If we find that Jupiter is dignified in this position essentially, we can conclude that the siblings of the native (or their writings/dreams & etc) will be somewhat of the nature of Jupiter. This person will have a brother (most likely if testimonies agree) who is Jovial (ie. in temperament and with his significations, religious, just, & etc.). His conjunction with the South Node however declares scandals and controversies surrounding this sibling/neighbour and/or the natives writing concerning topics of religion, sciences, arts, (and other Jovial significations). At any rate, it brings scandal by way of Jovial persuits.

Essential dignity therefore comes first. But if it is hidden away in the 12th house, with no aspects? I think I might have to conclude that it is just not seen by people the way it would be done in the 1st house.

Theres a saying in Astrology "use your judgment". You are perfectly right, sometimes its accidental dignity/debility can be more open and obvious than its Essential. For each situation you should use your judgment to determine the answer to this.

One more thing... Perigrine planets are better off than planets in detriment and fall right? I read somewhere that by being peregrine, a planet loses its MODERATION, and that was the precise word used, for both peregrine and detriment and fall

Kaiousei no Senshi shares my opinion on this (and a lot of other things as well!). Each of these share different influences. A Fall indicates that one is falling from their place of power, they are descending in power and influence and therefore their influence on others is weakened. This can be seen as a leader who is losing control over his people. Hes not necessarily disposed of them, but hes certainly about to be in that position. Detriment indicates someone who has fallen into ruin. For example, a leader who has not only lost his people and influence, but also his possessions and those things which he values. He has went from a King to a Begger. This is obviously a lot worse than simply falling from a position. A peregrine Planet is like one who has no power or influence over anyone. It doesnt necessarily mean that he has falling from this position or been placed in ruin as he was never in a position of power to begin with. This would be like someone who has been a begger or wanderer all their lives, never knowing where they are going, they have no influence to command others.

nejispirit
09-21-2008, 07:36 PM
Well, I knew that my sun is exalted since it is in Aries, also that my Venus is in detriment since it is in Aries.

Argh, Venus in Aries can be a pain to try and manage, especially when you are dating one with Venus in Cancer- I find that Venus in Aries has made me too impulsive and attached too quickly to someone in the past, but now I have it better controlled- somewhat at least :sunny:

AquaAqua
12-17-2008, 09:40 AM
:

Saturn in Leo:-slow education,ruling by female child.
Mars in Libra:-Two alive life partner.
Sun in Aquarius:-No Values of father in family.Hi AstroB

Can you explain the above three a bit more please?

thanks

Aqua

byjove
02-07-2009, 08:03 PM
OK then, I've Mercury in Pisces, is he uplifted by a reception with Mars in Gemini, 11th house, sextile Mercury 5deg? Also, Uranus 6th sq Mercury 2deg, and Mercury was exactly conjunct Midheaven, exactly trine Cancer AC...are the strong AC MC connections & Mars reception enough to help him?

Kaiousei no Senshi
02-07-2009, 08:08 PM
OK then, I've Mercury in Pisces, is he uplifted by a reception with Mars in Gemini, 11th house, sextile Mercury 5deg?

No.

Mercury was exactly conjunct Midheaven, exactly trine Cancer AC...are the strong AC MC connections & Mars reception enough to help him?

Being conjoined with the MC gives it accidental dignity.

byjove
02-08-2009, 11:08 AM
No.

Being conjoined with the MC gives it accidental dignity.

I went on to find out that this accidental dignity can give a planet more ammo, so to speak, but whether that ammo is used for good is a different matter. Doesn't sound good when Hermes swims with the Fishes...Hmm.

Can someone help me understand something in my chart? It really is a question of dignity in this one...

It's between the Sun and Saturn. The Sun is placed in the 10th of Aries. In terms of dignity, he has a Mars term, if that helps him in any way, being in Mars' sign. He has a trine with Saturn (0.01degs) conjunct Uranus (5.3degs), sextile 11th Gemini Chiron and a semi-square with 11th Gemini Mars.

Saturn is at the end of the 5th, ruler of the 7th and has term AND face dignity in Saggitarius. Saturn is the head of a T-square, 9th Pisces Venus square Saturn (2degs) and 3rd Virgo Moon square Saturn (2egs).

Who has more dignity? Are they both 'applying'? Saturn has two kinds of dignity, is ruler of the DC, the head of a T and is busy instructing a conjunct Uranus but is also exactly trine an exalted Aries Sun, in reception in the 10th.

As time goes on and I look back at these two planets, they rule quite a lot in my life. Not everything - there are definitely other planets looking for attention. But what's going on with these two? Any help would be hugely appreciated.

http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?rs=3&btyp=w2gw&&cid=foffile5qhNY9-u1233767349

~Kent~
02-21-2009, 10:12 PM
I notice that the example in the Skyscript recommended reading for using the Ptolemaic dignities and debilities is a HORARY chart. I don’t see this kind of a debility-dignity analysis used much for NATAL analysis and I wonder if there is not a mixing of the metaphors in this thread. Can somebody point me to a really good use of the dignity-debility scheme, in the analysis of natal charts?

In the meantime let me bring to bear the following scores for your consideration.


Mon Sun Mer Ven Mar Jup Sat
Picasso +3 -5 +2 +5 -9 +3 -5
John Lennon -5 -9 +2 -1 -10 +2 -5
Miles Davis -9 -5 -5 -4 -5 -5 -5
Churchill -5 +1 +1 +6 -10 +6 +6
Jules Verne -9 -10 -5 +7 +5 +7 -10
Hemingway -10 -5 +1 +3 +1 -5 -5
Anne Rice -5 -9 -5 -1 +5 -10 +1

Mon Sun Mer Ven Mar Jup Sat
David Berkowitz +9 -5 -5 +10 +6 +4 +3
Ted Bundy +4 -5 +2 -2 +5 +10 -4
Al Capone +5 +4 -5 +5 +1 +2 +2
Jim Jones +7 +5 +1 -2 +2 +7 +6
Jeff Dahmer -5 -5 +11 +8 +6 -3 +5
Edward Gein +9 +5 +5 +9 +3 +14 +4
Adlf Eichmann +1 +7 +2 +7 +4 -4 +1
Cho Noon +6 +4 -5 +5 +8 +5 +2

Cho Noon is the mass murderer at Virginia Tech
Note esp. Churchill’s high negative Mars when in fact he was a victorious warrior on so many fronts.
Ignored school as a kid and played with his toy soldiers
Note John Lennon’s and Miles Davis’ total negative scores
Jules Verne Mercury -5?
Hemingway, the most influenctial writer fo 20th Century with Mercury of only +1? Anne Rice Mercury is -5?
Note the high positive scores among many in the second, infamous category.
Al Capone's only negative is his Mercury? Jim Jones' only negative is Venus?
Eichman's only neg score is for Jupiter?
Ed Gein has only positive scores?
and Cho Noon (Cho Seung-Hui Noon) has mostly pos scores except for Mercury?

The Horary dignities and debilities do not seem a very good scheme for predicting
strength of character, intelligence, artistic achievement, level of sanity, amount of love offered, or
even whether a person contributes positively or negatively to humanity.
So what good are these predictors in natal chart analysis?

~Kent~
02-21-2009, 11:02 PM
Can you explain why the dignity-debility scores of my first group of positive contributors to humanity are so low in comparison with the second group of negative contributors? If I didn't know who Miles Davis was, by his numbers, I would think he was a total loser. And if I didn't know Ed Gein was a mass murderer I would think he was extremely successful. There seems no correlation between a person's scores and their contribution (+ or -) to humanity. Ed Gein beats everyone in my positive list. Most of the people in the sociopath list outscore all the geniuses and positive contributors in the first list.
__________________
note: the scores in my lists are the totals for each planet using the standard scores for rulership, exaltation, triplicity, term, face, detriment, fall and for peregrination. Solar Fire lists them for you neatly in a report it calls a Horary report.

~Kent~
02-22-2009, 06:19 PM
I think Solar Fire includes peregrination.
See Bundy's chart and look at his Sun.
No essential dignities across the board and SF gives his Sun -5 I presume for peregrine condition of Bundy's Sun.

Thank you for your response to my question. I do consider essential digniity and debility in my natal analyses but so far have not used triplicity, term and face.

I know Miles Davis may have not been "nice" but he was arguably one of the top 3 or 5 most influential musicians in the 20th Century and gave much to the collective of humanity for which we are richer.

And Ed Gein, with stellar numbers, was a monster.

I agree that you must look at the whole chart and with that I have to put the dignity scheme into perspective. To place too much emphasis on the essential dignities can be extremely misleading with respect to judging a nativity. IMO

And I notice that in the literature (at least the CPA and psychological astrologers that I admire, Liz Green, Sasportas, Erin Sullivan, Darby Costello, Charles Harvey, even Marc Edmund Jones) the essential dignities beyond home, detriment, exaltation, and fall are never used.

There is such a disconnect between the traditional astrologers and the modern psychological astrologers. Someone like Richard Tarnas doesn't use even the essential dignities. (Cosmos and Psyche, and "Prometheus") Tarnas has done some wonderful work in bringing a broader acceptance of astrology among people the likes of Stan Grof, Joseph Campbell, James Hillman and the teachers from Pacifica Graduate Institute in Santa Barbara.

Different strokes. . .

Thanks again for your reply. I appreciate it and the time you spent answering my question.

~Kent~
02-22-2009, 10:49 PM
I must say Lennon and Miles Davis contributed very positively to humanity, especially in comparison with Ed Gein, Ted Bundy and the other sociopaths and this is not even remotely indicated by the dignity of their planets. It is nearly an impossible stretch for me to think of Churchill as deficient in Martian energy, in spite of his low score (-10) for Mars. Or Einstein whose Mercury scores -5. There seems no correlation between the dignity scheme and a person’s known strengths and weaknesses which makes me question its usefulness. And then I don’t see anyone using the dignity scheme in natal chart analysis to arrive at any great illumination. I think traditionalists and moderns use home, exaltation, detriment and fall. To me those strengths and weaknesses come from the agreement or lack of it between the planetary archetype and the archetype of the sign. I don't see too many people using triplicity, term and face though in natal analysis. Can you point me to some? My library is weighted to moderns.

One advantage modern astrologers have over the traditionalists, I think, is they talk in terms of contemporary issues, and contemporary understandings. Not too many people will listen to you seriously, except other traditional astrologers, if you start talking about humors. But all schools of psychology today recognize the efficacy of Jung’s typology. So the moderns have the advantage of being able to discuss and share understanding with other disciplines. The traditionalists have to talk among themselves. They can hardly even talk to the modern astrologers let alone other branches of science. The moderns are open to the archetypal ideas that began with Plato (talk about traditional) but were re-interpreted by Carl Jung, Marie Louise von Franz, Joseph Campbell and later by James Hillman and now Richard Tarnas. The potential for cross-polinization seems so much greater for the moderns. Perhaps the traditionalists have a stronger Saturn and the moderns have a stronger Uranus. It does seem that you are one or the other. :-)

Is this site primarily a traditional astrological site then?
_________________________
I think you should check your math on Ted Bundy's chart. Solar Fire's scores are correct I think. I think yours are in error.
Moon is Mutual Reception in Triplicity with Jupiter + Moon in own Face = +4.
Mars MR with Jupiter = +5.
Jupiter MR with Mars + Jup MR in Triplicity with Moon + Jupiter in own Term = +10.

RayAustin
02-23-2009, 05:50 AM
Second, you have to look at the whole picture. I have SF. It picks up some dignities and debilities, misses others, and seems to add in a few where they don't exist. It's pretty buggy in that regard, in other words.

Sun: -5 (peregrine), SF has -5 - agree, but does SF list the peregrination?
Moon: +1, SF has +4 - disagree
Mercury: +2, SF has +2 - agree
Venus: -2, SF has -2 - agree
Mars: 0 (peregrine), SF has +5 - disagree, does SF list the peregrination?
Jupiter: +7 (he was a barrister, remember, which is a Jupiterian profession, this seems to be one of the ways it expressed), SF has +10 - disagree
Saturn: -4, SF has -4 - agree


Olivia... that's because the programs often add extra points for being in mutual reception with another planet, being direct, being swift, or free of the sun beams.. things that are not all specified in a table and the human astrologer might ignore.

Kaiousei no Senshi
02-23-2009, 05:55 AM
Hemingway, the most influenctial writer fo 20th Century with Mercury of only +1? Anne Rice Mercury is -5
Be careful of something like this. Traditionally, Luna rules grammar, Mercury rules arithmatic.

It is nearly an impossible stretch for me to think of Churchill as deficient in Martian energy, in spite of his low score (-10) for Mars. Or Einstein whose Mercury scores -5.
Negative planetary scores are not indicative of deficet in that planet's energy or influence. It's there, it's just there in a different, usually hindering or in a non-obvious way. Mars in detriment brings out the negative martian qualities like anger and rage, whereas Mars in dignity brings out positive martian qualities. Sort of like that.

I don't see too many people using triplicity, term and face though in natal analysis. Can you point me to some?
I use the triplicities as a natal technique like authors like Vettius Valens did in his charts. You can see an example of this here http://www.skyscript.co.uk/triplicities.html under the appropriate tab.

One advantage modern astrologers have over the traditionalists, I think, is they talk in terms of contemporary issues, and contemporary understandings. Not too many people will listen to you seriously, except other traditional astrologers, if you start talking about humors.
This made my day. The reason why moderns don't pay attention to these words is because when you say someone is predominately phelgmatic, moderns go "What'd you call me!?" because they don't understand what all the phelgmatic humour is composed of and how it materializes in those people who have it in predominance.

It's actually pretty interesting because if you read Lilly's Christian Astrology chapter 16 he says this about Virgo: "It's an earthly, cold, melancholy, barren, feminine, nocturnal, southern sign; the house and exaltation of Mercury, of the earthy triplicity."

I'm sure you're saying "Well...that's not very descriptive", but for the astrologers of Lilly's day who understood what all of those words meant and how they play out and manifest, it sums Virgo up quite nicely.

RayAustin
02-23-2009, 06:04 AM
I think it's worthwhile we also consider that the planetary strengths/and dignities in the 'horary table' you mentioned are for just that.. horary. In horary, planets with negative points are expressed very negatively, as opposed to natal.

Ray

byjove
07-17-2009, 07:14 PM
Hi all,

I've been wondering about my natal Mercury for a while. My natal Mercury is in Pisces,
he is not in face or term etc. of any planet in essential dignity, nor is an planet in essential dignity in a term, face etc. of Mercury. He is at the end of house 9, another less-helpful position. He is however, exactly conjunct the MC, exactly trine AC, the former prescribing accidental dignity. So, how do I consider him? I just don't know if he's a lost cause.

piscesascendant
11-07-2009, 08:13 AM
Actually, Mercury is in exaltation in Aquarius, not Virgo. Mercury rules Virgo along with Gemini. (Astrology: A Cosmic Science by: Isabel Hickey), along with other material I've read. Plus, the aid of two professional astrologers.

piscesascendant
11-09-2009, 01:06 AM
Only in modern astrology. In traditional, Mercury still rules Virgo and Gemini, is exalted in Virgo, detrimented in Sag, and falls in Pisces.


I never said it didn’t rule Virgo, only that it isn’t exalted in it. It is in Aquarius. Professional astrologers I’ve spoken to and others whose books I’ve read testify to this.

That Isabel Hickey or someone earlier in the Theosophical Society channeled information about Mercury being exalted in Aquarius doesn't change the tradition - and they obviously hadn't looked at the wheel of rulerships - it all makes sense.

That Isabel Hickey? I take it you haven’t read her work. She’s one of the preeminent astrologers in the world.

Mercury traditionally (and real life experience backs it up) performs well in both of Saturn's signs, Capricorn and Aquarius, but it's not exalted in either of them.

My experience demonstrates that it is exalted in Aquarius. But thanks for your feedback.

piscesascendant
11-09-2009, 07:57 AM
I indeed have read Isabel Hickey. I'm a professional astrologer. There are many, many professional astrologers out there who use traditional rulerships, and we use them because they work.

Traditional astrology contains a symmetry to the scheme of rulerships and exaltations that modern has thrown by the wayside.

The late Isabel Hickey did not overthrow traditional astrology. She was a fine modern astrologer, I grant you, but that doesn't change the traditional scheme of rulership and exaltation.

I was never disagreeing over rulerships. Simply that Mercury is exalted in Aquarius. I'm guessing there would be schools of thought when astrology began that might cringe at what some "traditional astrologers" do now, just as "modern astrologers" might make traditional astyrolgers cringe. I simply roll with the times.

Some may say that Mercury isn't exalted in Aquarius. I would disagree, given my experience. They might argue "you're wrong". To that, I'd say it's apparently a matter of opinion.

piscesascendant
11-09-2009, 09:57 AM
PA I am sure you mean well. What I mean is that there is a GEOMETRICAL symmetry to the traditional scheme of rulership and exaltation that simply doesn't exist in modern rulership. It's also based on planetary strength, not on planetary affinity.

Now - Mercury performs quite well in both of Saturn's signs - Capricorn and Aquarius.

I like seeing it there. But it's still exalted in Virgo, and it performs very well there, too.


And I'm sure you mean well too.

Glad you brought up about the geometry. As a favorite quotation of mine puts it, there are two sorts of order: geometric and living (experience). No doubt the geometry took precedence until astrologers knew more and could relocate the exaltations to where they made more sense.

I have little doubt there are plenty of "classically trained traditional astrologers" who would agree with you, but old habits are some times hard to break, let alone revise.

I've actually read where some astrologers disagree that Virgo is even a Mercury type of sign. They feel it makes no sense to rule an earth sign. Doesn't phase me one way or another.

As for Aquarius, professional astrologers have informed me that Saturn was originally assigned to Aquarius, but that it never truly fit its qualities. Once Uranus was discovered, Saturn became more the ruler of Capricorn, and Uranus the ruler of Aquarius. These same astrologers have told me that Saturn and Uranus are both considered to rule Aquarius, but that the true characteristics of Aquarius are more Uranian in nature than Saturnian.

You mentioned that experience has shown you that Mercury is exalted in Virgo. Is this your experience, and if so, would you please elaborate? If it isn't your personla experience, what other experiences have demonstrated this to you?

piscesascendant
11-09-2009, 05:50 PM
And with every planet, you find the exaltation and fall in opposite signs. Saturn suits Aquarius quite well in my experience. Mercury is comfortable there, but it's not exalted there - for that to be the case, it would have to fall in Leo, and it doesn't - it falls in Pisces. Mercury is essentially a dry planet elementally, though more easily coloured than any of the other planets. It falls in Pisces because Pisces is as wet as it gets - just like Virgo is dry. Are you suggesting it falls in Leo instead?

It does fall in Leo.

You can argue it all you like, and you can say that over 3000 years' accumulated experience (possibly more, the exaltations date back to the Babylonians) has been overturned in 50 years, but - I do not find it to be true. Many other people don't find it to be true, either.

I don't need to argue with others' analysis when I have my own experience. People can find comfort in relying on over 3,000 years experience if they like, but they may not always find truth in comfort. They may find comfort in the truth that modern astrology provides.

starlink
11-09-2009, 07:58 PM
Hello you all!! here is the :rightful:!!.
I think we have all had our say in this and I think we should indeed believe in what for us works best, whether it is according to the traditional rules or not. After all, we must get to some conclusion of a chart in the end and the outcome of a chart will tell us whether it worked for us this way or that way.
There have always been several "camps" in astrology, modern versus traditional, the use of different houses, whether fixed stars and asteroids should or should not play a role etc. There will never ever be one solid rule for all. So the best thing is to use the rules we adhere to within the system we use and everybody is happy:biggrin:.

Starlink

Vagabondgirl
02-21-2010, 11:37 PM
Haha, then my sun has fallen hard at 19 degrees libra:annoyed: My venus is also fallen in virgo, nice!

vannasan
03-30-2010, 06:54 AM
Hello there, just another question about accidental debility and dignity if anyone cares to answer.

I'm new to dignities/ debilities. But I've seen that planets in the 12th house can have accidental debility (-5). I wonder if the 12th house is ruled by lucky Sag, would this cancel out the accidental debility in any sense?
I've seen some answers on the 2nd page here alluding to this (more specifically Jupiter as a benefic).
And if Jupiter is in a house of accidental dignity (say the 2H or 11H), would this make the planets in the 12H less debilitated since their power would be disposited to Jupiter?

byjove
03-30-2010, 10:24 AM
In your case, the problem is we're not sure which house Mercury rules - and he doesn't look to be in bad shape besides the detriment. I know, I know, but at least he's direct, and the square of Saturn hits Venus - which is exalted - and effectively cuts off Saturn from squaring Merc.

If we can get a reliable birth-time for you, then we can better see what Mercury's up to in your chart. A quick look gives you Venus and Sun both exalted, so that helps balance things out.

Some things that might be true (I'm not fond of universal significators): Bad manual dexterity, possibly some kind of speech impediment, or more often, not being able to really process the difference between personal and general statements.

E.g., the teacher in your astrology class says: Mercury in Pisces is slow in understanding.

You hear: She just said I'm retarded! (what a bitca! I want my money back!)

Or possibly foot-in-mouth disease yourself.

Again, EXTREMELY general statements and without knowing what precisely Mercury rules, it's hard to tell. Having the exaltation ruler of the sign in the same sign with Mercury is likely to soften the bad effects though.

Hi Olivia,

Thanks for the guidance, I can't believe I didn't reply to this earlier, this one has been bugging me for some time...some people seem to think a fallen Mercury in Pisces is slightly redeemed by it's conjunction with the MC. Others say it's a malefic given more ammo on a high pedestal like that :bandit:. I hope not.

I don't identify much with the problems associated with it as you mentioned above, except for the personal and general statement...I read that example and I couldn't help be offended lol.

I'll attach my chart so you can take a better look. I'd really appreciate the outside perspective. You'll see that Mercury rules my 3rd and 4th of Virgo, and 12th of Gemini. You can see that it disposes the Moon in the 3d of Virgo (a double whack of Mercury, Virgo, Gemini) and I'm concerned since the Moon is seriously assaulted there, and is the ruler of the AC....Lastly, Mercury disposes my Mars in the 11th of Gemini who is quite positive.

Let me know what you think! :tongue:

Horus
06-15-2010, 05:50 AM
Exaltation:


North Node in Gemini
South Node in Sagittarius
I don't think so. They are not planets. The nodes are like the angles (MC, IC etc.) as they mark where the moon crosses the ecliptic above and below the horizon and no sign placement of such is "better" than another. They only give clues to the past and the future, to karma and evolution .

eternalautumn
06-15-2010, 09:38 AM
Horus: Traditionally, the Moon's nodes were given exaltation in Gemini and Aquarius. It's just a fact. They never used to be linked to karma, future, and evolution, until the 20th century. So before then, they were just considered positive (North) and negative (South) points, equivalent to negative (Mars, Saturn) and positive (Venus, Jupiter) planets.

Horus
06-15-2010, 03:53 PM
Horus: Traditionally, the Moon's nodes were given exaltation in Gemini and Aquarius. It's just a fact. They never used to be linked to karma, future, and evolution, until the 20th century. So before then, they were just considered positive (North) and negative (South) points, equivalent to negative (Mars, Saturn) and positive (Venus, Jupiter) planets.

I didn't know that the nodes were used in traditional astrology...well in the West anyway.. I thought I had read somewhere that they were important in Eastern astrology but then incorporated by Westerners later, and assigned different meanings than the Vedic ones....

Anyway I found articles that explain why they were exalted in those positions:


"Many traditional astrologers ignore the nodes exaltation in the tables of dignities. They argue that as the nodes are not bodies but merely markers along the ecliptic it is absurd to give them a sign where they are exalted and conversely in fall. If one used the same logic there would also have to be a sign where they are in domicile and in detriment, as the planets are.

"The nodes mark where the path of the Moon crosses the ecliptic. North Node for the ascending Moon, South Node for the descending Moon. There are four other very important points on the ecliptic. These are the equinox points at 0 Aries and 0 Libra and the solstice points at 0 Cancer and 0 Capricorn. They remain constant as opposed to the nodal points which have a cycle of roughly 18 and 3/4 years to return to their original position.
The axis of the solstice at Cancer/Capricorn also forms the axis around which another set of ‘shadowy’ points are generated. These are the antisica. Any position in Cancer/Capricorn has its antisicion in Gemini/Sagittarius (just as any position at Aries/Libra has its antiscion at Virgo/Pisces). This corresponds to the traditional North Node/ South Node exaltation position."

http://altairastrology.wordpress.com/2008/08/12/nodes-in-exaltation/ (http://altairastrology.wordpress.com/2008/08/12/nodes-in-exaltation/)


So that's why. And who came up with this notion of linking this astronomical antisica with a dignity?


Reading wiki I came across:


"After the discovery of the three outer planets--Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto--modern astrologers sometimes speculated on possible domicile and exaltation rulerships for these planets. It was suggested, for example, that Neptune was the "true" domicile ruler of Pisces (usurping one of Jupiter's two domicile rulerships). Similarly, as the idea became popular, the third degree of Gemini was postulated as the exaltation of the north lunar node and the third degree of Sagittarius as the exaltation of the south lunar node.[7]

7. According to Fred Gettings, Dictionary of Astrology (Routledge & Kegan Paul, 1985) Abu Rayhan Biruni was the source of this idea."



This seems to imply that it was part of a modern trend but incorporating a notion from a medieval, Persian astronomer/astrologer (among many other hobbies) circa 1000 AD.

I still say that it is as invalid as assigning a dignity to the angles. All are fixed points at the time of birth. Planets, by contrast, are moving energies. Nodes are like houses within the Houses.

eternalautumn
06-15-2010, 10:40 PM
If one used the same logic there would also have to be a sign where they are in domicile and in detriment, as the planets are.

This is false. The exaltations and domiciles are completely separate and different ideas. The fact that modern astrologers group them together in the "point system" doesn't change the historical facts about their use and "birth".

After the discovery of the three outer planets--Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto--modern astrologers sometimes speculated on possible domicile and exaltation rulerships for these planets. It was suggested, for example, that Neptune was the "true" domicile ruler of Pisces (usurping one of Jupiter's two domicile rulerships). Similarly, as the idea became popular, the third degree of Gemini was postulated as the exaltation of the north lunar node and the third degree of Sagittarius as the exaltation of the south lunar node.[7]

This is also false. The nodes had exaltations long before the discovery of the outer planets, and there is much proof of this.

I still say that it is as invalid as assigning a dignity to the angles. All are fixed points at the time of birth. Planets, by contrast, are moving energies. Nodes are like houses within the Houses.

The nodes are completely different from the angles. Did you know that all of the planets have nodes? Only the Moon's were charted, because as the closest body to Earth, they were considered the most important and most influential.

The nodes are not like angles or houses within houses. Where did you hear these ideas?

Horus
06-15-2010, 11:24 PM
This is also false. The nodes had exaltations long before the discovery of the outer planets, and there is much proof of this.

:annoyed:Umm... no kiddin'. I don't think that you read my post very carefully The article didn't state that the nodes were discovered at the same time as the outer planets.

Furthermore I provided the source of the exalted nodes as that medieval Persian astrologer.

If you have evidence to the contrary, please quote and cite source(s) please.

The nodes are completely different from the angles. Did you know that all of the planets have nodes? Only the Moon's were charted, because as the closest body to Earth, they were considered the most important and most influential.

The nodes are not like angles or houses within houses. Where did you hear these ideas?

From God. :biggrin: How about "rooms" in houses? If its a fixed location and signs or planets influence it, then it's rather like a house.

I disagree with you; the nodes are not "completely different" from the angles.

Medium Coeli is the zenith of a path in the sky traced by the point of intersection between the ecliptic and the Meridian (a line of longitude) of a certain terrestrial location.

AND the lunar nodes are also marked intersections with the ecliptic. They all just mark points in the sky.

eternalautumn
06-16-2010, 01:17 AM
:annoyed:Umm... no kiddin'. I don't think that you read my post very carefully The article didn't state that the nodes were discovered at the same time as the outer planets.

My bad. I misread.

From God.

Can you give me his email address?

I disagree with you; the nodes are not "completely different" from the angles.

You're right. They're not completely different. But, the angles are based upon the Sun's relationship with the ecliptic and meridian. The lunar nodes are based on the Moon's relationship with the Zodiac. That's different enough for me to consider them different concepts.

Horus
06-16-2010, 03:41 AM
You're right. They're not completely different. But, the angles are based upon the Sun's relationship with the ecliptic and meridian. The lunar nodes are based on the Moon's relationship with the Zodiac. That's different enough for me to consider them different concepts.

The Angles also connect to the Zodiac. Everything does, so that's not really a distinction. The Lunar nodes position is based on the ecliptic which is the path of the Sun!

The ecliptic is the apparent path that the Sun traces out in the sky during the year, appearing to move eastwards on an imaginary spherical surface, the celestial sphere, relative to the (almost) fixed stars. In more accurate terms, it is the intersection of the celestial sphere with the ecliptic plane, which is the geometric plane containing the mean orbit of the Earth around the Sun. The name ecliptic arises because eclipses occur when the full or new Moon is very close to this path of the Sun.

dr. farr
06-16-2010, 03:54 AM
Ancient information regarding the Lunar nodes may be found in Dorotheus of Sidon, Firmicus Maternus, Paulus Alexandrianus (go to Astro-America.com and find the books by these authors); later (around 1000 AD) Al-Biruni speaks about them, and a bit later Ibn Ezra (again, reference these authors' books at Astro-America) Gerard of Cremona (13th century) and H.C. Agrippa (15th century) made much of the nodes importance. In Vedic astrology the nodes were "elevated" to "shadow planet" status at least by 1000 AD, and continue to play such a role today; the Chinese also gave great importance to the Lunar nodes in their various astrological (more correctly astro-calendro-numerical) systems.
Assignment of exaltation and fall to the nodes was mentioned by Al-Biruni, and of course have been included in Vedic astrological works over the past thousand years.

However, I agree with Horus opinion regarding the nodes not truly having exaltation and fall-but not for the same reasons-and I have never applied "dignity scores" to the nodes, although planetary connections with one or the other node I do accept as affecting the dignity-score of the planet involved (however I really don't use dignity debility "scores" in my delineations)

BobZemco
06-16-2010, 07:06 AM
I didn't know that the nodes were used in traditional astrology...well in the West anyway.

Sure, Bonatti considered the North Node a benefic, and the South Node a malefic.

"The nodes mark where the path of the Moon crosses the ecliptic.

I'm not really a fan of pukipedia, but I do know that Ptolemy did not consider planets to be conjunct, unless the were on the same side of the plane of the ecliptic.

That means they'd have to both be north (positive declination) or both be south (negative declination), and of course they're in parallel if their declination is within 1 degree.

The orb for the Moon was 13 degrees (14 partile) and maybe they used the nodes to see if the Moon was in the same declination. I don't know.

SniperBomber328
04-26-2011, 03:39 PM
According to Lilly's Table of Dignities and Debilities, I'd say my planets are in great shape, except the fact that I can't calculate the waning/waxing moons and the swift/slow in motion numbers.

I did the calculations for my planets:

Sun: +4
Moon: +7
Mercury: +5
Venus: +7
Mars: +16 (if that one is even right...)
Jupiter: +7
Saturn: +7 (If I was a Diurnal Chart, which I haven't found out if I am, this would be +10 or 11)

That above was including the essential and accidential debilities/dignities. Not to mention that, I think my Sun and Moon were Peregrine, although not sure on my Moon, since it is at 20 Degress Pisces, in the 5th House.
Didn't bother too do Uranus, Neptune and Pluto, since I cannot find the Accidential Dignities/Debilities for them.
If I would have though, just using the Essentials (Without Face, Term nor' Triplicity), it would look like this:

Uranus: +6 (Mutual Reception with Saturn), in 3rd House
Neptune: -4, in 3rd House
Pluto: +6 (In Scorpio) in the 1st House

One funny thing Iv'e noticed was that none of my planets were in Detriment or Fall, or Opposition. Not to mention that none were in Partile Square to Mars or Saturn, except Mercury and Pluto...

byjove
04-30-2011, 11:07 AM
OK new question...

Imagine two planets in contact, with one of them with dignity and the other without. Imagine the first planet is in exaltation, and the planet it contacts would be in detriment in the sign-placing for the first planet.


One can change the aspect, and whether there is implied dignity or debility gained by the contact.

Sun in Cancer square Jupiter in Aries (gain for the Sun?)

Sun in Cancer squaring Saturn in Libra (loss for the Sun?)

Sun in Aries trine Saturn in Saggitarius (loss for the Sun?)

Do planets gain or lose by contact like this and to what extent? It's not mutual reception, but there is a dignity/debility factor involved in the contact. What other features might change how this works? Imagine the first example where I speculate the Sun might gain from the contact with a planet in it's place of exaltation, does that further empower the Sun? Or the second example take away even more from the Sun?

SniperBomber328
04-30-2011, 05:14 PM
OK new question...

Imagine two planets in contact, with one of them with dignity and the other without. Imagine the first planet is in exaltation, and the planet it contacts would be in detriment in the sign-placing for the first planet.


One can change the aspect, and whether there is implied dignity or debility gained by the contact.

Sun in Cancer square Jupiter in Aries (gain for the Sun?)

Sun in Cancer squaring Saturn in Libra (loss for the Sun?)

Sun in Aries trine Saturn in Saggitarius (loss for the Sun?)

Do planets gain or lose by contact like this and to what extent? It's not mutual reception, but there is a dignity/debility factor involved in the contact. What other features might change how this works? Imagine the first example where I speculate the Sun might gain from the contact with a planet in it's place of exaltation, does that further empower the Sun? Or the second example take away even more from the Sun?

Hardly doubt if Aspects involve any Debility or Dignity factors, except Mars/Saturn and Jupiter/Venus, even then only in Partile (Within 1 Degree) Squares, Trines, Oppositions, Sextiles, and Conjunctions.

dr. farr
05-01-2011, 02:51 AM
OK new question...

Imagine two planets in contact, with one of them with dignity and the other without. Imagine the first planet is in exaltation, and the planet it contacts would be in detriment in the sign-placing for the first planet.


One can change the aspect, and whether there is implied dignity or debility gained by the contact.

Sun in Cancer square Jupiter in Aries (gain for the Sun?)

Sun in Cancer squaring Saturn in Libra (loss for the Sun?)

Sun in Aries trine Saturn in Saggitarius (loss for the Sun?)

Do planets gain or lose by contact like this and to what extent? It's not mutual reception, but there is a dignity/debility factor involved in the contact. What other features might change how this works? Imagine the first example where I speculate the Sun might gain from the contact with a planet in it's place of exaltation, does that further empower the Sun? Or the second example take away even more from the Sun?


Old time astrology (13th century and earlier) particularly Islamic astrology, followed the doctrine called "benefaction" (also called "recovery" and "pleasantness") in which, if planet A is dignified and planet B is debilitated (essentially dignified or essentially debilitated, although it can apply also, to some extent, to a rescue from accidental debility) and they conjoin (or are applying to conjunction) then the dignified planet A "benefits" ("recovers") planet B from planet B's debility. I largely follow this concept*...However, this principle (apparently) does NOT apply to aspects between the planets...


*this concept is discussed by various authors of those times; see for example Al-Biruni's "Book of Instruction in the Elements of the Art of Astrology" (1029 AD) and Ibn Ezra's "Beginning of Wisdom" (1158 AD)

byjove
05-01-2011, 10:40 AM
Hmm, this is all very interesting. I ask now because someone mentioned recently that I have to take into account that two of my planets in aspect have a mixture of essential dignity by placement and loss thereof by the aspect they share. I have to find this now, inquire, and report back!

Otherwise it's just conjunction, then?

dr. farr
05-02-2011, 04:05 AM
As far as I can tell by my studies of the old literature, yes it is only just conjunction and apparently only just by conjunction in longitude ("by body" as they used to say, excluding conjunction in latitude-or parallel of declination-and excluding also conjunction by nature)

virgo18
05-31-2011, 05:57 AM
Mercury exaltation is in Virgo and AQUARIUS! :alien:

Aquarius Mercury is an excellent position for this planet, the same strength as like being in Gemini and Virgo.

Virgo and Gemini are RULERS OF MERCURY and it exalts in AQUARIUS!


Like Libra and Taurus rule Venus, but it exalts in Pisces...


An planet is exalted in a sign that don't rules it but it feels very comfortable.


Virgo is also domicile of mercury "Not exaltation"

MantisReligiosa
06-24-2011, 07:52 PM
I have Mercury in Pisces, Jupiter in Gemini, and they make a square..I must be a total idiot. :sideways:

But I do have Venus exalted, in Pisces, so as long as i can find a rich husband, I'll be fine..:lol:

MantisReligiosa
06-24-2011, 07:54 PM
but I also have Saturn in Rulership, Capricorn.

what does this mean: Saturn in Capricorn:-Not require any Suggestions.?

Is that like "no comment"? lol.

mjackieward7
10-29-2011, 05:45 AM
I am very interested in this discussion, as both my sun and moon are in detriment. That's a bit depressing! Actually, reading that article you linked to about Dignities & debilities, my chart overall is in pretty bad shape. :(

Great thread idea, I can't wait to see what people have to say about this topic!

:devil: I am a bit confused too about afflicted planets-I just started learning about astrology after many years of being scared of even reading anything about astrology (parents are christian), was forbidden to even think about such subjects. So I noticed that I have Mars totally bad and that scares me since I have no clue of what is that mean except of reading that means I have a short temper and that indicates violence but I am not a violent person, in fact I try my best to have harmony around me. So how can that be? in the websites it states really horrible things about my personality and I keep thinking if I have been mean to people but I try to treat people with respect, I try to always see other's point of view before jumping into my own conclusions. If some one can give me some information regarding a "BAD MARS" Here is my chart.
http://www.astro.com/tmpd/c5cdfilevUq6o6-u1308506977/astro_w2gw_01_jaqueline_mederos_hp.20248.25368.gif ?25564


Cheer up! :)[/QUOTE]

Rebel Uranian
11-12-2011, 01:04 AM
OK new question...

Imagine two planets in contact, with one of them with dignity and the other without. Imagine the first planet is in exaltation, and the planet it contacts would be in detriment in the sign-placing for the first planet.


One can change the aspect, and whether there is implied dignity or debility gained by the contact.

Sun in Cancer square Jupiter in Aries (gain for the Sun?)

Sun in Cancer squaring Saturn in Libra (loss for the Sun?)

Sun in Aries trine Saturn in Saggitarius (loss for the Sun?)

Do planets gain or lose by contact like this and to what extent? It's not mutual reception, but there is a dignity/debility factor involved in the contact. What other features might change how this works? Imagine the first example where I speculate the Sun might gain from the contact with a planet in it's place of exaltation, does that further empower the Sun? Or the second example take away even more from the Sun?

The first one is a mutual reception. The Sun is exalted in Aries and Jupiter is exalted in Cancer. The Sun is also in its triplicity in Aries and Jupiter is in its triplicity in Cancer.

:devil: I am a bit confused too about afflicted planets-I just started learning about astrology after many years of being scared of even reading anything about astrology (parents are christian), was forbidden to even think about such subjects. So I noticed that I have Mars totally bad and that scares me since I have no clue of what is that mean except of reading that means I have a short temper and that indicates violence but I am not a violent person, in fact I try my best to have harmony around me. So how can that be? in the websites it states really horrible things about my personality and I keep thinking if I have been mean to people but I try to treat people with respect, I try to always see other's point of view before jumping into my own conclusions. If some one can give me some information regarding a "BAD MARS" Here is my chart.

I wish your chart was still there, because you probably don't have a bad Mars. I was supposed to have a bad Mars, but when I looked at elevated & pitted degrees it was elevated which made it a very good Mars.

mjackieward7
11-12-2011, 04:47 PM
The first one is a mutual reception. The Sun is exalted in Aries and Jupiter is exalted in Cancer. The Sun is also in its triplicity in Aries and Jupiter is in its triplicity in Cancer.



I wish your chart was still there, because you probably don't have a bad Mars. I was supposed to have a bad Mars, but when I looked at elevated & pitted degrees it was elevated which made it a very good Mars.


What is elevated and pitted degrees? how is related to planets?

Rebel Uranian
11-12-2011, 08:46 PM
They're dignities and debilities that happen when a planet is in a degree. There is a thread on it in this specific forum subsection.

Claire19
01-08-2012, 04:40 AM
I dont get the Sun in Libra as in fall. It is sextile to Sun in Leo in the natural zodiac.. It is accidental as the Sun is exalted in Aries and opposite..... I just dont subscribe to these terms.

I wonder why the North Node is good in Gemini. I have it. Is it because Gemini is the learning sign and of all things new as the North Node deals with our new path this time around....????

byjove
04-05-2012, 02:33 PM
Good questions Claire, I share those doubts.

I was looking for somewhere to discuss Ptolemy's work more and here might be good. I read a few astrologers discussing Ptolemy's table of dignities and they weren't that in awe of his work at all. They hinted that he was not a practising astrologer like Valens therefore couldn't really be relied on.

The thing is, as I was reading this, I thought about just how many of us have followed his table like it was the first page in an astrological bible. Does he really deserve such status? If he was not a practising astrologer, compare him to that scientist who said about a year or two ago that there are the constellations have moved on and you may not have the correct 'star sign'. He's not a practising astrologer either. Many modern astrologers worship him, but as I delve more into his history I'm less convinced and more troubled by how much we inherit without asking questions. However, if there is real work that should not be discounted, I'm happy to accept that. I just want to distinguish a little.

A ray of hope though: there were of course other great astrologers we can more rely on, not just form Europe but Persia and Egypt too. Valens has his own table though doesn't he? I'll check that out again, I think it's similar but with some differences.

Kaiousei no Senshi
04-06-2012, 12:46 AM
The thing about Ptolemy that many people forget in their criticisms of him is that he was working in the Library of Alexandria when he was writing his books. Certainly he wasn't a practicing astrologer, but think of him more like a transcriptionist. He had access to many texts that we've now lost due to the library's burning later on, so he's sort of our guide into what those texts were and the general idea of astrology at that early stage of history. Of course, Valens is a good foil to him in this regard. Valens had the experience that Ptolemy didn't have, but didn't have the references that Ptolemy had.

Moog
04-06-2012, 02:33 AM
I dont get the Sun in Libra as in fall. It is sextile to Sun in Leo in the natural zodiac.. It is accidental as the Sun is exalted in Aries and opposite..... I just dont subscribe to these terms.

The fall point of a planet is opposite its exaltation

I wonder why the North Node is good in Gemini. I have it. Is it because Gemini is the learning sign and of all things new as the North Node deals with our new path this time around....????Not sure about that one. It could be something as simple as it giving mercury a boost, and astrologers tend to be mental types. But then why not Virgo? I am speculating wildly.

Moog
04-06-2012, 02:49 AM
Mercury exaltation is in Virgo and AQUARIUS! :alien:

Aquarius Mercury is an excellent position for this planet, the same strength as like being in Gemini and Virgo.

Virgo and Gemini are RULERS OF MERCURY and it exalts in AQUARIUS!

It's not a bad place, because Saturn likes Mercury, but it's not an exaltation, not by any schema I'm familiar with.

Moog
04-06-2012, 02:55 AM
Not sure about that one. It could be something as simple as it giving mercury a boost, and astrologers tend to be mental types. But then why not Virgo? I am speculating wildly.

I just checked this out, and some Vedic astrologers give Gemini as exaltation and Virgo as 'Moolatrikona' which is considered about as good as exaltation. There seems to be a lot of disagreement about signs for the nodes...

dr. farr
04-06-2012, 04:58 AM
In Vedic there is NO agreement even among the "fathers" (Parasara, Jaimini, Bhrigu, etc) relative to exaltation/"ownership"/debilitation signs for the Nodes; I myself do NOT attempt to allocate these dignities/debilities to the Nodes.

uprunni
05-26-2012, 03:30 AM
I have studied astrology since 1989 and have examined several conflicting disciplines. Having seen the validity between sun centered vs. earth centered methods, it is likewise possible for both traditional and modern classifications to show merit. However, in my approach I feel that traditions had to be modified when astronomers discovered Pluto, Neptune and Uranus re-assigning dignites as well as dibilities. I have come to respect Dane Rudhyar and agree with most of his assignments which describe only two combinations of planet and sign that constitute a true 'fall': Moon in Aries and Pluto in Virgo.

Most will agree on rulership, i.e that Pluto better represents the qualities of Scorpio giving the co-rulership of Saturn back to Capricorn, but there seems to be no mutual agreement when it comes to re-assigning the fall. It is interesting that other than the glyph, Virgo and Scorpio display no other connections, but with this assignment there is another link between the two in shifting the 'opposite exalted' tradional rule to the glyph instead of the sign itself.

Not to discredit tradition, but astrology is an evolving science and I believe that makes it subject to updates. However, prior assignments served astrologers well before our knowledge of the solar system increased, so it is my opinion that those same rules can still apply and produce an accurate reading.

byjove
05-26-2012, 12:08 PM
I have Mercury in Pisces, Jupiter in Gemini, and they make a square..I must be a total idiot. :sideways:

But I do have Venus exalted, in Pisces, so as long as i can find a rich husband, I'll be fine..:lol:

Well I have spent ages going through past threads to find a vital piece but I cannot find it, perhaps you know the idea? I have Mercury and Venus in Pisces like you, but someone pointed out to me that Venus was very strong and that Mercury would benefit greatly from this. I think it was related to her being the almuten of something, I cannot remember or find the correct thread. That and of course mutual dignity, helpful aspects etc. can lift our Mercuries. :smile:

Moog
05-26-2012, 03:07 PM
Well I have spent ages going through past threads to find a vital piece but I cannot find it, perhaps you know the idea? I have Mercury and Venus in Pisces like you, but someone pointed out to me that Venus was very strong and that Mercury would benefit greatly from this. I think it was related to her being the almuten of something, I cannot remember or find the correct thread. That and of course mutual dignity, helpful aspects etc. can lift our Mercuries. :smile:

Yes, that principle is called neecha bhanga in Indian astrology. If an exalted planet or a domiciled planet is in the same sign/house as a debilitated planet, it cancels the debility. There's a number of other rules for debility cancellation.

It is said that you get the debilitated effects first then the cancellation effect comes in later. Albert Einstein is often given as an example.

Sidereally, your Jupiter is in Pisces/9th along with Mercury, Venus is in Aquarius. It's a very strong Jupiter.

byjove
05-26-2012, 03:25 PM
Yes, that principle is called neecha bhanga in Indian astrology. If an exalted planet or a domiciled planet is in the same sign/house as a debilitated planet, it cancels the debility. There's a number of other rules for debility cancellation.

It is said that you get the debilitated effects first then the cancellation effect comes in later. Albert Einstein is often given as an example.

Sidereally, your Jupiter is in Pisces/9th along with Mercury, Venus is in Aquarius. It's a very strong Jupiter.

I've long hoped to find more info. on finding solutions in the chart to help Mercury (Moon and Mars also). Thank you! :smile:

Are there any other rules on these kinds of cancellation that you could tell us about, or if you have on another thread? If they are too complex for here I understand.

When you say that the cancellation comes later, you mean in life? Yes I noticed Albert was also such a native and another member here Frank has done some studies on Pisces Mercury.

Thanks again. :joyful:

Moog
05-26-2012, 03:59 PM
I've long hoped to find more info. on finding solutions in the chart to help Mercury (Moon and Mars also). Thank you! :smile:

Are there any other rules on these kinds of cancellation that you could tell us about, or if you have on another thread? If they are too complex for here I understand.

When you say that the cancellation comes later, you mean in life? Yes I noticed Albert was also such a native and another member here Frank has done some studies on Pisces Mercury.

Thanks again. :joyful:

You're welcome. I enjoy these 'technical' discussions.

There's some disagreement about what counts and what doesn't, as is typical with astrology. Here are the common neecha bangha rules that I've come across:

Debilitated planet is in an angular house, from the ascendant or from the Moon.

If the ruler of the debilitated planet is angular from the ascendant or the Moon.

The ruler of the debilitated planet is exalted (best result) or domiciled (good result).

The sign/house that contains the debilitated planet also contains an exalted planet.

Ruler of the debilitated planet aspects the planet (including by conjunction) (aspects in Indian astrology work differently to western ones).

Debilitated planet is in a favourable Navamsa division.

Debilitated planet is retrograde (interesting one).

Moog
05-26-2012, 04:06 PM
The more cancellation 'testimonies' the better the effect.

Example:

The debilitated planet is in the 10th house (angular), the ruler is in the 4th along with the Moon, an exalted planet is present with the debilitated planet etc.

Would theoretically give a much better effect than a single cancellation testimony.

byjove
05-26-2012, 04:18 PM
I'm afraid I've used all of my thanks for today but thanks for sharing the knowledge and yes I really enjoy these discussions also! :lol:

May I test to see if I'm applying this correctly?

3 examples

Moon in Virgo house 3 and a little afflicted
ruler of Virgo is Mercury in Pisces, joined by exalted Venus
Moon is then ok?

Mars in 11th/12th of Gemini, seems peregrine
ruler of Gemini is Mercury in Pisces, joined by exalted Venus
Mars is maybe ok?

Mercury in Pisces, lost at sea
ruler of Pisces is Jupiter, angular in 10th, joined by exalted Sun, Mercury is also joined in Pisces by exalted Venus
Mercury is maybe ok and saves the day for all the other troubled planets?

Could it be?? :andy:

Interestingly, transiting Jupiter is about to move through Gemini and touches everything in my chart within the next one year.

Moog
05-27-2012, 01:32 AM
Could it be?? :andy:

You've got it :-)

Moog
05-27-2012, 02:06 AM
There's an example in my own chart; Venus debilitated in Virgo, but Mercury is also in Virgo. When I was a kid I had typical debilitated Venus issues; alcohol dependency and drug abuse. I just gradually gave everything up by my late twenties.

byjove
05-27-2012, 11:16 AM
There's an example in my own chart; Venus debilitated in Virgo, but Mercury is also in Virgo. When I was a kid I had typical debilitated Venus issues; alcohol dependency and drug abuse. I just gradually gave everything up by my late twenties.

Ah you have the Mercury and Venus situation also! So we benefit but from opposite signs. That's a long time to wait for the stronger planet to radiate it's benefits. So for you it was waiting for a troubles Venus to transform. And how was your love life up until that point may I ask? :whistling:

For me I did a lot of debating in school and early in college and did well, though I found academic study always. I definitely do have concentration and over-imagination issues from time to time.

Moog
05-27-2012, 12:29 PM
Ah you have the Mercury and Venus situation also! So we benefit but from opposite signs. That's a long time to wait for the stronger planet to radiate it's benefits. So for you it was waiting for a troubles Venus to transform. And how was your love life up until that point may I ask? :whistling:

Good point. My love life was absolutely negligible for many years. Venus rules my 7th house too. I have never married and may not. Women just wouldn't give me time of day. I do a bit better now, but I'm no Cassanova :biggrin:

Element
06-20-2012, 12:00 AM
No, no planet is exalted in Leo. Sol is in domicile in Leo and exalted in Aries, that's two different things.

As for Triplicity rulers, there isn't a 'better' between night-time and day-time rulers. It's just they switch over after the sun sets.

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this as I have not read the entire thread but, many astrologers believe Neptune is exalted in Leo.

JUPITERASC
06-20-2012, 12:47 AM
Not sure if anyone has mentioned this as I have not read the entire thread but, many astrologers believe Neptune is exalted in Leo.
That's interesting Element. Are there any reasons given for the choice of Leo? Some astrologers seem to prefer Pisces - so the matter is at the experimental stage and currently unresolved. Perhaps an explanation for this may be found in the following abbreviated 98 word information sourced from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exaltation_%28astrology%29:smile:

QUOTE
“The exaltations are one of the most ancient astrological factors remaining from an era pre-dating the known use of the zodiac.... Medieval astrologers assigned numerical values to each dignity in a hierarchy in use today by astrologers... After Uranus/Neptune/Pluto were discovered modern astrologers speculated that Neptune was the 'true' domicile ruler of Pisces (usurping one of Jupiter's two domicile rulerships).

The ancient system was complex and symmetrical, making no allowance for additional, unseen planets, and it is difficult to include them in traditional techniques.

Most modern astrologers have therefore abandoned attempts to assign exaltations to these newer planets”

Element
06-20-2012, 01:54 AM
That's interesting Element. Are there any reasons given for the choice of Leo? Some astrologers seem to prefer Pisces - so the matter is at the experimental stage and currently unresolved. Perhaps an explanation for this may be found in the following abbreviated 98 word information sourced from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exaltation_%28astrology%29:smile:

QUOTE
“The exaltations are one of the most ancient astrological factors remaining from an era pre-dating the known use of the zodiac.... Medieval astrologers assigned numerical values to each dignity in a hierarchy in use today by astrologers... After Uranus/Neptune/Pluto were discovered modern astrologers speculated that Neptune was the 'true' domicile ruler of Pisces (usurping one of Jupiter's two domicile rulerships).

The ancient system was complex and symmetrical, making no allowance for additional, unseen planets, and it is difficult to include them in traditional techniques.

Most modern astrologers have therefore abandoned attempts to assign exaltations to these newer planets”

This is how I had seen it explained. Leo is the sign of the self, the arts and acting (among other things). Neptune is the planet of selflessness (selflessness of the self in Leo?), inspiration (every artist needs inspiration) and illusion (every actor needs to be able to maintain an illusion of the self).

This would place Aquarius as its fall. Aquarius rules commune style living, friendship and radical change. Neptune rules solitude (which would be the antithesis of communal living and friendship) and transcendence of the spirit (change yes, but a very different kind of change).

tsmall
06-20-2012, 01:58 AM
Not sure if anyone has mentioned this as I have not read the entire thread but, many astrologers believe Neptune is exalted in Leo.

I believe there were other reasons that no planet was exalted in Leo as the Sun's domicile. Can you provide references to the "many astrologers" who believe Neptune is exalted there? I would be interested. Especially since I have seen modern ideas that give sign rulership to the outer planets, but none that give exaltation. Exaltation was more than just "where the planet performed best" but another concept of rulership along with domicile and triplicity rulers.

Element
06-20-2012, 02:05 AM
I believe there were other reasons that no planet was exalted in Leo as the Sun's domicile. Can you provide references to the "many astrologers" who believe Neptune is exalted there? I would be interested. Especially since I have seen modern ideas that give sign rulership to the outer planets, but none that give exaltation. Exaltation was more than just "where the planet performed best" but another concept of rulership along with domicile and triplicity rulers.

I'm on my phone right now so providing links would be a serious pita. I had just found the theory while playing on google one day and found some articles on it. I'm not claiming it is gospel, just something to think about. Also, see my previous post for an explanation as to why some may think this.

Kaiousei no Senshi
06-20-2012, 02:52 AM
My understanding is that no planet would be exalted in Leo since Leo is in aversion to the Ascendant of the Thema Mundi.

tsmall
06-20-2012, 03:01 AM
My understanding is that no planet would be exalted in Leo since Leo is in aversion to the Ascendant of the Thema Mundi.

:joyful:

Yeah, someone told me that once.

I'm on my phone right now so providing links would be a serious pita. I had just found the theory while playing on google one day and found some articles on it. I'm not claiming it is gospel, just something to think about. Also, see my previous post for an explanation as to why some may think this.

Element, I apologize, but I can't find a previous post on this thread that gives an explanation as to why some may think this.

tsmall
06-20-2012, 04:00 AM
This is how I had seen it explained. Leo is the sign of the self, the arts and acting (among other things). Neptune is the planet of selflessness (selflessness of the self in Leo?), inspiration (every artist needs inspiration) and illusion (every actor needs to be able to maintain an illusion of the self).

This would place Aquarius as its fall. Aquarius rules commune style living, friendship and radical change. Neptune rules solitude (which would be the antithesis of communal living and friendship) and transcendence of the spirit (change yes, but a very different kind of change).

Ok, for some reason I wasn't able to see this post before.

Please, don't feel like I am attacking your ideas or sources (if you can help us out with providing them?), just that...Leo as the sign of the self? Really? Leo is the domicile of the Sun, but it isn't the sign of the self, because the sign of the individual self involves a process that is both complicated and yet simple, and includes the planets, the angles, and a host of other things specific to any chart. Also, I'm pretty sure that even modern astrologers give the Venus signs, or Venus herself, to the arts, and acting.

Neptune is what? I've seen it as delusion, illusion, or even the...mists? I haven't seen it as the planet of selflessness...again, and only because I really am interested in all opinions/ideas, do you have a reference for this idea?

Ok, so now we are at Neptune, the planet of selflessness, being exalted in the sign of selfishness....why? Because being selfish works better for the native if it is selfless? And further, if it is exalted in the domicile of the Sun, does the Sun then exalt Neptune? Of all the planets? Further...if Neptune is then in fall in Aquarius (since the sign opposite exaltation is fall) why is the planet according to these sources that represents selflessness in it's fall/depression in the sign that modernly is represented as the sign of being concerned with the greater good? And, if Neptune is in fall in the sign of the Sun's detriment (and that has a relationship to Saturn) does this actually equate Neptune to the level of the Sun?

dr. farr
06-20-2012, 04:21 AM
For me (as a working hypothesis only), the most I can do is assign an affinitive relationship of the outer planets to signs based upon elemental resonance: Uranus, air, so affinitive to the air signs; Neptune, water, and so affinitive to water signs; Pluto, fire, and so affinitive to the fire signs (here I differ even from the greats like Charles Carter, and do not assign co-affinity of Pluto to Scorpio: but realize that all Modernists do assign Pluto to Scorpio)
However, this entire subject (affinities/rulerships of the outers) is very speculative and highly theoretical, and so is a rather nebulous area open to many varied opinions.

Paul_
06-22-2012, 01:53 PM
I'm of the opinion that unless the pre-existing schema for assignation of exaltation is fully understood, we have no reason to 'tinker' by adding in newer planets: On what grounds would we do so if we do not understand its current logic?

Clearly the current logic was not based upon "this planet really really suits this sign" kind of mentality. Therefore I would encourage Element to move away from his rationale.

I agree with whomever mentioned the aversions of the Thema Mundi. But really I'd be inclined to not see Neptune as ruling Pisces either so I'm not sure how popular that theory would be. I think I'm saying the same thing as Dr Farr (if I understand him properly) and would say that the modern planets may have some affinity with certain signs - I just do not think that the affinity is to rule over the sign, and to have domicile dignity therefore in that sign.

I see some connections with Neptune and Pisces, it is true, and also see some with Pluto and Scorpio. I tend to see more connections with Uranus and Aries tbh, but I'm not advocating anyone else follow that mentality of course. It is just that I see Neptune as a 'blending' quality, and Uranus as having an 'individuating' or 'separative' quality that suits my understanding of Aries.

Paul_
10-02-2013, 09:06 AM
please delete

Nadineday
02-22-2014, 07:38 AM
A Triplicity are Planets that agree in the same Element. For example the Signs Aries, Leo and Sagittarius are considered "fiery" or part of the fire Element, their rulers are Jupiter, Sun and Mars make up the Fiery Triplicity. When there is a mixing in a chart of Jupiter, Sun or Mars together, there is a certain agreement between them because they are of the same Element.
I was just refreshing and learning more about essential dignitaries. And I must have gotten confused about triplicities, my understanding was the determining factor is if one's birth time was day or night and then this was proceeded by looking to sun/day or moon/night. This is where I may have gotten confused, once deciding on Moon/Sun, I then looked to the occupying sign, and then to the planet triplicities assigned to sign/day or night. And this is where I began to see where dignities or detriment may pursue. Am I completely off base..

Kaiousei no Senshi
02-22-2014, 10:21 PM
And I must have gotten confused about triplicities, my understanding was the determining factor is if one's birth time was day or night and then this was proceeded by looking to sun/day or moon/night. This is where I may have gotten confused, once deciding on Moon/Sun, I then looked to the occupying sign, and then to the planet triplicities assigned to sign/day or night. And this is where I began to see where dignities or detriment may pursue. Am I completely off base..

Off base a little bit, yes.

You started out right, it's important to note if the chart is diurnal or nocturnal, because that's going to tell you which of the planets is in charge of that triplicity at that time.

However, going to the sect light and identifying its triplicity lords is a specific technique related to quality of life and eminence of an individual. It doesn't really have to do with the assignment of the dignity itself.

So, if you're doing this technique with a chart of an individual who was born at night, you'd look to their Moon, let's say their Moon is in a Fire Sign, so then you'd look at Jupiter (night ruler of Fire) and see what he's all about, then you'd look to the Sun (day ruler of Fire), and when you were finished with him you'd look to Saturn (who participates and always goes third).

Hope that makes sense.

Nadineday
02-23-2014, 05:41 AM
What I understand about essential dignitaries is rulership based, for instance the significance of a ruling planet which start with the ASC which is the ruling planet over the whole chart following on down to each contributing sign, house and planet. For instance My ruling planet is Mercury which is in Libra. Now I will look to Libra and it's ruling planet which is Venus. This procession continues throughout the chart.
So I have a basic understanding of the essential dignitaries and the Synastry involved.
While attempting to further my knowledge I was practicing with my own chart and came across this question, regarding Triciplities rulership.
I have a Nocturnal chart. My Moon is Taurus, Venus/Scorpio, Mars/Scorpio. and what happened is the dignitaries and debilities within, naturally followed the nocturnal sect without me noticing or applying the set formula.

For instance, if the Moon was in Aries one would look to Jupiter in the Triciplities rulership sects regardless of the attributing placement whether it be dignified or debilitated is irrelevant. So my question is, does one look to the sign dispositor or the next ruler in the nocturnal/diurnal sects. Such as Moon Aries would be ruled by Jupiter, not mars, so then the next action would be to look to the secondary ruler which is Sun followed by Saturn. So I think I answered my own query but in my case all the planets lead one into the other naturally how would this be applied if the Triplicities were debilitating through the succession of the planets.
I apologize for my incongruent thoughts I am not sure how to ask my question. Maybe I will be able to clarify over time. It does not help that I am also over complicating the matter to an extremes. I see many avenues and welcome insight from seasoned Astrologers..

Kaiousei no Senshi
02-23-2014, 06:35 PM
Hi Nadineday,

It looks like you're trying to craft a dispositor tree, but with triplicities, which isn't really anything I've ever heard of before, and dispositor trees as a whole are pretty iffy, modern inventions.

I'll do my best to unpack your questions!

What I understand about essential dignitaries is rulership based, for instance the significance of a ruling planet which start with the ASC which is the ruling planet over the whole chart following on down to each contributing sign, house and planet. For instance My ruling planet is Mercury which is in Libra. Now I will look to Libra and it's ruling planet which is Venus. This procession continues throughout the chart.

Yeah, this is the beginning of a dispositor tree.

The whole system of essential dignities is about much more than seeing whose domicile another planet is in, it's a large five point system including domiciles, exaltations, triplicities, terms, and faces. Sorry for condescending to you if you already knew that!!

For instance, if the Moon was in Aries one would look to Jupiter in the Triciplities rulership sects regardless of the attributing placement whether it be dignified or debilitated is irrelevant. So my question is, does one look to the sign dispositor or the next ruler in the nocturnal/diurnal sects. Such as Moon Aries would be ruled by Jupiter, not mars, so then the next action would be to look to the secondary ruler which is Sun followed by Saturn. So I think I answered my own query but in my case all the planets lead one into the other naturally how would this be applied if the Triplicities were debilitating through the succession of the planets.

No, you'd really only follow the triplicity rulers around if you're trying to do the quality of life/eminence technique that I mentioned above. For someone who has the Moon in Aries, her domicile lord would be Mars, her exaltation lord would be the Sun, her triplicity lord would be Jupiter (if it's night) or the Sun (if its day), and then the Term and Face lords would depend on the specific degree.

I apologize for my incongruent thoughts I am not sure how to ask my question. Maybe I will be able to clarify over time.

I'm sure you'll figure out where you're getting hung up!

Nadineday
02-23-2014, 07:02 PM
Thank you, No you do not come off as condescending in any fashion. I appreciate directness and try not to infer anything.. I am somewhat familiar with essential dignities and I find it paramount for natal/psychology astrology which is where my main focus has been. However I want to deepen my skill and knowledge for it is still rather amateur.
The dispositor tree theory sounds like it would interest my style and spark new ideas.
My goals are to become more adept in Astrology and write on it along with my other ongoing studies. I am formulating plans.
And for some reason I just keep writing no matter how off topic :biggrin: in fact my first reply to this forum was impossibly lengthy and rattling. I had to shorten it up.. :whistling:
Hope all is well.
Thank you for your time and consideration.

pharvey0829
10-15-2015, 12:15 AM
Receptions! Receptions! Receptions!

Look at the dignities of the luminaries, and see if any of those planets are also in the dignities of the Sun and the Moon. If you find that either of the luminaries are in beneficial reception, mixed or mutual, with another planet, and if this planet has dignity, then this describes the influence that can pull the detrimented planet out of it's unfortunate position.

There are few charts in which a badly debilitated planet has no other strength to draw upon from elsewhere in the chart via the web of receptions.

Receptions are completely ignored in most astrology today, and astrology is so very much the poorer because of it, but it doesn't need to be.

In fact, a debilitated planet does not have to be in actual reception to derive benefit from another planet, it's just better if the planet to which the detrimented planet appeals takes some interest in it's plight.

For example, I have a peregrine Mercury in Libra, but fortunately, it isn't all so bad for Mercury, as Mercury exalts Saturn, and Saturn is also in Libra and is in Mercury's term, so Saturn takes a bit of interest in Mercury's situation, and so is inclined to respond to Mercury's appeal for help via the mixed reception. Saturn is able to help Mercury even more in that he is the Lord of the Geniture. So when my troublesome Mercury causes me to go askew in life, I know that I can draw upon my powerful Saturnian qualities, to kick Mercury's **** into gear. To derive benefit via receptions in this way however, usually requires will and concious application, if the two planets are in aspect however, the exchange is more automatic.

Astrobhadauria,



What does this mean? I am a Mars in Scorpio native.



True.



I disagree. You have just said yourself that a peregrine planet is a planet that does not have any essential dignities in it's placement, but this is certainly not equal to a planet that is as essentially undignified as it can possibly be.

A planet in it's peregrine state, it has been said, given the opportunity, tends towards malice. This is a far cry from being in detriment, or being comparable to detriment.

Lilly equates peregrination with detriment in that he gives each a numerical value of -5, but then, what is the point in making a distinction between the two debilities? I would agree with Frawley, who gives peregrination a value of -3, which makes more sense, because then we have a sliding scale of essential debility, detriment -5, fall -4 and peregrine -3.

Looking at it like this, peregrine is about as bad as triplicity is good.

Personally, I do wonder why, that if peregrination means 'no dignity', why it is not given a value of '0'.

Antikythera

The word 'peregrine', originates from the Latin 'pereger', meaning 'beyong the borders', and 'ager' meaning, 'land'. So a peregrine planet is literally a wanderer in an unfamiliar environment, outside of it's natural territory, and cannot relate to the position it is in.

A peregrine planet having no dignities of it's own, is strongly influenced by those planets with which it is configured, by aspect or reception. The lack of dignity of the peregrine state can be alleviated somewhat by accidental dignity, or by aspect or reception, preferably both, with a more essentially fortified planet.

I would tend to agree that a peregrine planet is less debilitated than a planet in fall or detriment. I would tend to agree that peregrine should only receive a -3 score.

BlueAngel
10-19-2015, 11:06 PM
Well, I've been reading on this for over a week and trying to understand it. I'm still in a bit of a conundrum. There's plenty more to figure out. I have lots of questions.

I have the following:
Saturn in Libra - exalted - in the 12th house - Does the placement cancel the exaltation?
Jupiter in Libra - peregrine - in the 12th house - Does this exalt it?

Pluto in Libra - in Fall - in the 12th house - Is this Double Debility
Sun in Libra - in Fall - in the 12th house
Mercury in Libra Retro - peregrine - in the 12th house - Is this debilitated b/c of the house? Does the Retro mean it's debilitated as well? I read that somewhere

These are all square my Moon which is in detriment in Capricorn in the 3rd house. Yikes! Getting worse :(

Lastly, I have Venus in Scorpio - detriment - at the same degree as Uranus in Scorpio (exalted) in 1st house

So does this mean that Saturn or Jupiter is leading my stellium? Which energies would I use to direct all my confused & debilitated planets?

How would Uranus help Venus in this situation? For example, I honestly have difficulty with this energy. It seems like I am always wanting to bolt in my relationships when things get difficult. It is definitely not helping so far.

Thanks for any input!

conspiracy theorist
10-20-2015, 02:43 AM
Hey BlueAngel,

Let me go through your questions...

1. Saturn is in Libra so is exalted no matter what. He may be cadent but he traditonally joys in the 12th so he benefits from being here. He is also in a diurnal sign in a diurnal chart, above the horizon and is Triplicity ruler of Air by day. So this a Saturn that will do you good. He is also the malefic of the sect (day chart) so he would be less of nuisance to you than would be the case if you born at night.

2. Depending on who you ask, Jupiter is not peregrine in your chart. This is because he is participating Triplicity ruler of air so his placement in Aquarius, Libra and Gemini (his detriment) would lend him some essential dignity. His placement in the 12th will not exalt him but he is in a diurnal planet in a diurnal sign so he gets a plus for that. He is also in a sign of a sect mate (Saturn exaltation) which is seen as a good thing. He is the benefic of the sect so he is the one who would look to to provide most of the benevolence.


3. Sun is in his fall and in the cadent 12th - start. He however is configured to An exalted Saturn and if you read in the previous pages of this thread, a debilitated planet will be "uplifted" so to speak if conjunct an exalted planet (best) or domicile planet (good). Bare in mind that he is in a masculine sign and also with his sect mates in a diurnal chart. This is a Sun who has a lot of help.

4. I don't subscribe to the view that the outers have any dignities/debilities. Pluto is cadent in the 12th though so is accidentally debilitated.

5. The chart you have up shows a Mercury in Scorpio. He is an evening star (rises after the sun) so is classified as nocturnal. Hence, he is out of sect. Add to that he is retrograde so not looking so hot. He is in a feminine sign and in the sign of his sect mate (Mars is a nocturnal planet) so that shifts the balance toward some positivity. He is also angular (conjunct the ascendant by 3 degrees) so will make his presence felt in your life. 1st house has to do with your personality so I expect you to have some mercurial traits (some of the troublesome ones too seeing Mercury's state).

6. The way you behave in relationships does have something to do with Venus' state, imo. She is out of sect, in her detriment and rules the 7th house so will definitely have a bearing on how that area of life pans out. She does have some positives though as she is in a feminine sign (Scorpio), in the sign of a sect mate (Mars), in the nocturnal hemisphere of the chart (below the horizon in the day) as well as occidental to the sun (rising after the sun) which she prefers. She is also the Triplicity ruler of water by day going by the dorothean triplicities so she is qualitatively very mixed in her dignities. Throw in her angularity and her naturally benefic status and I don't see her as a bad girl at all in your chart. The detriment will make itself known though.

What may be the actual culprit is not only the partile conjunction from Uranus who is the modern planet of instability and sudden changes but also Mars right up there on the MC.

He is the out of sect Malefic so will be more troublesome in the daytime. He is none of dignities or debilities so is peregrine. He is angular and oriental to the Sun so is powerful for good or ill. He squares your Venus from the 10th sign from Scorpio (dominating square) so will be the "stronger" in the relationship. As the traditional ruler of instability, severance, and divorce his aspect to Venus will cause his cutting nature to affect Venus things and the areas she rules in your chart. Venus as the general significator of relationships as well as ruler of the 7th paints a clear picture. Mercury who also has a destabilizing influence plays an important role in your situation too.

Shows that you have the ability to break of relationships quite easy, maybe too easy and the fixed signs show that it is because you don't want to compromise. If you are to have a successful relationship you will have to go through all that difficulty and shitty times, perhaps you'll be willing to do that when you find someone that's worth it.

BlueAngel
10-21-2015, 05:42 PM
First, thank you so much for such a thorough answer! This has been very helpful! I guess I thought of my Mars in Leo as a good motivator in my chart; I didn't realize that he was such a culprit in my relationships. Guess the square to Venus should have caught my eye :wink:


So this a Saturn that will do you good. He is also the malefic of the sect (day chart) so he would be less of nuisance to you than would be the case if you born at night.

What do you mean by malefic in this instance? How can he be a "bad" influence if he is exalted/doing me good?

He is also angular (conjunct the ascendant by 3 degrees) so will make his presence felt in your life. 1st house has to do with your personality so I expect you to have some mercurial traits (some of the troublesome ones too seeing Mercury's state).

How might he make his presence known? So far, I've just had to deal with being a chatterbox, racing thoughts, insomnia which I've associated with mercury of late. AKA ADD/ADHD symptoms.

Thanks so much again!
BlueAngel

conspiracy theorist
10-21-2015, 06:14 PM
No problem. He (Saturn) is regarded as the greater malefic so I'm really referring to him by his "title". However, that doesn't mean he will be malefic all the time in every chart out there. Yours for example is a case of "good" Saturn.

All those things you listed is some of the ways Merc has manifested in your
Life. Would you say that these traits hamper your life in some ways?
Would you also describe yourself as argumentative? Mars also squares your Mercury by sign, so I'm curious.

BlueAngel
10-22-2015, 07:44 PM
No problem. He (Saturn) is regarded as the greater malefic so I'm really referring to him by his "title". However, that doesn't mean he will be malefic all the time in every chart out there. Yours for example is a case of "good" Saturn.

Ok, that makes sense. Thanks for clearing that up :) I'll have to do some more reading on "him."


All those things you listed is some of the ways Merc has manifested in your Life.
Would you say that these traits hamper your life in some ways?
Would you also describe yourself as argumentative? Mars also squares your Mercury by sign, so I'm curious.
The greatest issue I have with my 12th house stellium in general is being misunderstood. Having Mercury retro in Scorpio means I need a lot of introspective time to wade through my "emotions" so that I can communicate thoroughly. It's not that I am not a good communicator; I'm actually very good once I begin speaking. The problem lies with the amount of energy/time I need to invest to know my own mind so to speak.

I do have a knee jerk habit of interrupting/having a wandering mind as well that I have been trying to conquer for years. That can get really embarrassing but it's not that hampering. It challenges me to be a better listener.

The Mars/Mercury combo mainly gives me a great deal of energy (sometimes restless) and it lends a creative/theatrical flair when I'm telling a story. I can be very animated in a group. I used to be a drama nerd and I was on the debate team. But I HATE conflict so arguing is really not a problem for me. I'll bicker or pull devil's advocate for fun regularly; this can get irritating for others depending on the person. I have a great deal of Libran & Piscean influence in my chart that tempers the more abrasive qualities of the combo. I am rarely without tact, kindness or patience. Once my patience has run out however, I do have a hot temper - my Scorpio/Leo qualities definitely surface then. I rarely get that angry so it is always a surprise even to me ;)

Purple9
09-29-2017, 06:34 AM
I am still confused about peregrine planets. She is peregrine if in the sign where she is there is no area where she rules/is dignified (or debilitated)/has term or face OR she simply does not touch any point she rules/has term or face? I assumed the latter. In this case in my mother's chart for example ALL her planets are peregrine and that can't be right??

JUPITERASC
09-29-2017, 08:57 AM
I am still confused about peregrine planets. She is peregrine if in the sign where she is there is no area where she rules/is dignified (or debilitated)/has term or face OR she simply does not touch any point she rules/has term or face? I assumed the latter. In this case in my mother's chart for example ALL her planets are peregrine and that can't be right??

It is not unusual for all natal planets to have peregrine status :smile:
UNDERSTANDING PLANETARY DIGNITY & DEBILITY
informative article at http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig4.html