Doomed?

Hello,
I'm trying to find out what it means to have:
*pluto opposite (sun conjunct moon)
*pluto in 2nd house
*(sun,moon) in 8th house
*pluto in scorpio
*(sun,moon) in taurus
*(sun,moon) trine neptune
*pluto sextile neptune

Do the sextile and trine help in someway to reduce the opposition? Is this supposed to cause a lot of mental tension to people who have this? Does pluto win or conjunction of sun/moon wins? I reckon this seems like a case of "the Lights" vs "the Dark". Or is saturn darker than pluto? Also, (saturn in 3rd house) opposite (mars in the 9th). Saturn in sag, mars in gemini.

Hi, Pluto in the second house is about changes in income, ways of making money ect... the other transits depend on the houses/signs. Also, transits are the outter influences affecting, while the progressions are the inner influences of things ripen to happen. Transits are felt depending on house and sign while the progressions trip off the different influences of the transits. So, I would suggest looking @ your progressions also.
Hope this helps.
Cheers!

Hello,
I don't know if I am saying right but this would be the Natal Chart of the person. I understand the transits are different from natal. Or am I understanding something wrong?

The house cusps are:
*Libra for 2nd
*Scorpio for 3rd
*Aries for 8th
*Taurus for 9th

natal chart is different than the prog and transits. Natal chart should be read as a whole and shows your potential, path, challenges and opportunities ect. Transits and progressions show the different developments for certain periods and times. in your post were you talking about your natal chart?

Yes, that would be the natal chart in the original post. No, it is not my chart. And the info added later also pertains to it. I was looking for a general explanation as to what all these imply and mean. How debilitating these aspects are, in what way, and do they have something to do with serious mental tension. Is there anything good about them?

I wouldn't put too much stake in Pluto-sextile-Neptune unless it's part of some larger aspect pattern. Pluto and Neptune are both very slow moving planets. Probably everyone on the planet born over those few years has that aspect.

Yoi said:

I wouldn't put too much stake in Pluto-sextile-Neptune unless it's part of some larger aspect pattern. Pluto and Neptune are both very slow moving planets. Probably everyone on the planet born over those few years has that aspect.

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Yes, but does it come into play in somehow mitigating or reducing the effects of the opposition between pluto and (sun,moon), since neptune forms aspects with all three?

even the slow moving planets do have profound affect causing generational shifts and specifically affect the individual if touching personal planets or the chart axis. Pluto sextile neptune is not such a big deal, not bc of the distance of the planets, but the fact that sextiles are peaceful by nature and promote good outlet for both planets energy with out need for stress/tension and thus change.
Yes Pluto opp Sun is definitely a harsh combo though and one that can not be ignored. Yes it does cause a lot of mental tension to those who have it and can sometimes make the person prone to heart attacks. The problem is these people do not understand how "stressed" they are in relation to the rest of the world. This stressedness is projected on to others who usually will just brand him "a difficult person" being theyre very fixed in ther views on how world should be and tend to see the negative in situations and in people and are quite gruff about it .. if you have experience dealing with this type of person, you know. .. are you looking for confirmation or elaboration bc i can go on.
As to your other questions
Pluto is darker than saturn
The sextile and trine do not reduce the opposition, they are considered seperate aspects.
The new moon (sun conj moon) gives singleness of mind and viewpoints and "self" energy coming from one place rather than the duality and help seeking nature of those born under the full moon. This would make the opinions of the pluto opp. even more solid and unyeilding.
8th house sun and moon suggest interest in undiscussed subjects such as the occult/ anything taboo.
Your right it is quite a case of light vs dark, but is a battle is within the persons soul, and neither of them "win" or "lose" it simply just "is"
Mars/Saturn points to similar dominative theme as any personal planet opposing saturn makes the individual in awe of great feats and desire to do something great and acheive power but at the same time fearing power in others. and bc personal power issues are highlighed in the mind they must battle it in others and master it within themselves
Can I ask about your experience with this person?

Questionmark, do you think it is possible to put up a chart here? You can find instructions on how to upload a chart in our "help with the forum" board. That would permit us to have a better look at things.

From what you described here a Sun-Moon conjunction is opposed by a Pluto in the 2nd house. This is the money axis as you might know, 2= your money, 8= other people's money. So there could be potential problems in the life of this person which has to do with his earning power or that others are not willing to support this person financially. There could be inheritance problems like this person does not get what he expects.
Psychologically it has to do with his/her selfworth and he/she maybe measures his7her own selfworth versus others by how much he/she is earning. This could result in wanting to acquire selfworth and confidence through material possessions.
Something to do with the parents most likely (Sun and Moon) could have caused this great insecurity in him. He/she could have gone through some very traumatic experiences in life because the 8th house shows crisis, going through the dark and coming out (hopefully)at the other end, purified and without the bagage of past memories.

Now you wrote about an eventual mental tension. The Ascendant ^must fall in Virgo if I am not mistaken so Mercury is the planet to look at.
Every trine connected to a difficult aspect will indeed help balancing out potential stress. The trine can create a way out. If the trine is between Sun and Neptune then the stress can be relieved by a creative outlet, like music (Moon trine Neptune) or writing poetry or keeping a diary. With a Virgo Ascendant that is a possibility.

The sextile and trine do not reduce the opposition, they are considered seperate aspects.

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Heidi, these aspects are only to be considerate separate when they are not connected with one of the planets making that opposition. In this case Sun/Moon is opposed by Pluto and trining Neptune. They are not separate.

The same goes for a grand trine for instance. When a person has a grand trine without a square attached to it, then this person can be very very lazy indeed and with all the opportunities the trine represents, will not manage to do something with it, whilst when the square is attached to this grand trine, then that square can push the person into action and indeed use the benefits of the trine.

So in "questionmarks" chart this trine does help ease the tension created by the opposition.

It's not a case of whether pluto wins or the sun/moon conjunction wins. Sun conjunct Moon is not inherently good.

The Sun conjunct Moon means someone who has difficulty seeing others point of view. This is good in that they can be really sure of things. However people can get annoyed by the person's inability to see their side of things. With pluto opposing the conjunction it means this is likely to result in power struggles with others, especially those in positions of power. This is especially true since Pluto is in Scorpio. Moreover since the Sun/Moon conjunction and Pluto are both in fixed signs, this indicates there is going to be a lot of stubborness on both sides on this issue which could make the situation worse. This looks like a great mixture for someone who is willing to fight for a cause and take on the world because they are going to be really sure of themselves and very hard to move. However, there is likely to going to be a lot of fighting and possibly suffering.

I don't think Neptune helps with the situation. Easy aspects just mean there is no conflict between the energies - it doesn't necessarily mean it will reward the native. Neptune aspects lend creativity and compassion but also escapism and dreaminess. Given what I think is happening with the Pluto, Sun, Moon axis I think Neptune's effect in all this would be to make the native unrealistic about what's going on. They they may have a far too romantic view of whatever the cause of the conflict is and this could make things worse.

This occurs in the 2nd-8th house axis. The 8th house is the house of others values and the money of others. The 2nd house is the house of your money and values. This means that on a personal growth level the conflict will be over values - the values of others and your own values. On a more material value, let's just say I can't see someone get rich with this combination. For example in the chart of Anne Boleyn who got rich by marrying a king she has two planets opposing in the 2nd house-8th house axis. However they were Venus and Jupiter.

At best I would say this aspect pattern will lead to someone who is a real fighter for a cause and with Neptune involved, may be a champion for the poor and weak. The fixed signs lead to a lot of stubborness. This could lead to large amounts of suffering and given its on the 2nd house-8th house axis, probably they are going to lose a lot of money. Even if money is not involved there will be a conflict on values.

At worse this could lead to someone who pisses people off, especially those in power, because they refuse to see others point of view and think they are always right. Neptune leads them to have grandiose images of themselves, contributing to the situation. Possibly drugs or alcohol or other hedonistic escapism may contribute. And they lose lots of money because of it.

Thank you for the insights so far. Here is the chart as I finally managed to upload it, so you can elaborate further. Does the rest of the configuration of the chart help in reducing or dealing with the stressful aspects? Also, concering the 'power' of certain aspects, which aspects in this chart would you actually consider 'effective' or 'strong' as opposed to those that are barely existing and hence ineffective. I understand it has something to do with orbs. For instance, is the node in the 7th house conjunct Venus and Jupiter or are they just far apart so as to render the conjunction(s) ineffective? Does the (Mercury trine to Saturn) barely exist or is it reasonably effective? How effective is the (Mercury trine to Uranus) and (Moon trine to Neptune)? These would be the good batch of aspects that perhaps can help deal with the other harsh ones?

What else can be learned that might help (or hurt) the given difficult condition? Does an absence of any planets in the 10th or 5th house indicate problems with career and 'fun'? Would it matter if something called Lilith is in the 10th house, in Cancer? Would that be a positive or negative? What does the absence of planets in the 6th house indicate? Lack of a solid work ethic and bad health? Are heart attacks, as mentioned in a previous post, excessive tension/stress, stroke, or other problems exemplified by this absence of planets in the 6th, 5th, and 10th? In general how would you read the chart in its entirety in terms of disaster or possible success?

Questionmark, I think that it is time that instead of only asking us what is this and what is that, you also please try to give us an indication of what you yourself think of this chart. It is turning into a lot of questions asking for a lot of answers from everyone else and I would very much like to see some opinion given by your good self.

so you can elaborate further.

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sounds almost like an order, like OK, here is your soup, now eat it.

In general how would you read the chart in its entirety

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This is asking for a free reading !! Being in this Greenhorns lounge also means you could maybe look up some interpretations in a book, a link, or in our Education Board.
Common man, i am sure you can do better than that!

Starlink

My own interpretations, definitely. Well, the questions that I posed were sort of my own interpretations of which I was asking a confirmation or explanation. I do realize I went a bit overboard asked too many. This is the first time I have started a thread and actually posted and so wasn't aware of the forum policies very clearly as such. But I guess I can offer my obviously unseasoned 'opinion(s)' as best as I can.

With regards to the absence of planets in the 6th house, I think that makes for a person that can suffer from bad health especially since this chart already has two very bad stressful aspects in it.

The lack of any planets in the 5th house suggests there isn't much emphasis on being able to release creativity or develop it even though it might be present in some form as the trines with Neptune suggest. Also, the lack in the 5th would suggest this person doesn't have much fun, taking away a chance of perhaps reducing the tension.

Since the 10th house is one of the most important houses, lack of planets in there suggests this person will suffer from problems in career or being able to maintain one since no planetary energy is present lending any support. Lilith in the 10th I am guessing would suggest some problems resulting in the workplace that would be to the detriment of the individual, although not fully sure what Lilith does other than it is the Dark Moon. All in all so far, everything not helping (perhaps hurting) the difficult situation already present.

I am still not sure about the orbs, but I would wager that the (Mercury trine Saturn) might not be too strong or effective. I am guessing the (Moon trine Neptune) is weaker than (Sun trine Neptune) but do think it would have some degree of reasonable influence. Again, I am not sure about the conjunction of the Node to Venus and Jupiter, although I reckon Jupiter extends out a larger orb than the Node, and hence the Node and Jupter could possibly be considered conjunct. Would that be true? Also, I'd like to know if (Mercury trine Uranus) is stronger than that to Saturn, seeing they are very close, and which is more effective? Or is either effective at all?

In essence, how is it possible to figure out if an aspect is 'strong enough' and how to assign it whatever level of 'power' would be the question I'd like to ask with regards to this. Is a power of 1 for an aspect considerable, or a power of 5 and above are the only ones that are worthy of consideration?

Both Venus and Jupiter are squaring Neptune, although to what degree I am again not sure. If both are strong, I am guessing they are undoing whatever positive effect Neptune was providing in mitigating the opposition between Pluto and (Sun conjunct Moon). Hence, I return to the original question of this chart being very 'difficult' if not quite doomed. Are there any positives that cut down to some extent on the negatives? I am guessing the negatives outweigh the positives.

That would be my opinion or understanding so far. I'd appreciate further input and insights from people more experienced and knowledgable.

Dear ``?``... I am new in astrology too and our dear and very active (as also as effective) moderators, mentioned to me how important is the feed back in the question. Who is the person you are asking and why, and how ethicall is to ``search`` other people lifes in this way. Astrology can be very precise. Because when you ask ``What else can be learned that might help (or hurt) the given difficult condition? `` who is going to hurt whom? Can this person ask for himself? Is he able to? Is his condition so bad or is he ``obstructed`` by any way? And if yes, who is obstructing him?
At another forum of this site I mentioned the importance of communication and human side of this site which practicaly means that we ``know each other`` or at least, in this imagynary internet world we have a ``mental picture`` about the person on ``the other side``... so, dear ``?`` , wondering where is yours Neptune and is he conjucting Moon? Is your Sun in 12th? My Mercury in conjunction with Jupiter demands a direct and clear picture in communication. Since my Pluto squares Mercury, it explaines this bluntly expressive style of mine and the Mars in first that squares Mercury may be tactless or requested in communication.
Now, about your question (still not sure what was the question but anyway)...If you, as you say at the end`` are quessing the negatives outweigh the positives`` and also (I guess) guessing ``I reckon this seems like a case of "the Lights" vs "the Dark". ``, please, search for light and for the positive and maybe for the way YOU can help this person or show him/her the way. So, maybe it is your natal we should study more?
I hope that ``situation`` (I did not clearly understand what situation) will have the best outcome and a lot of ``light`` and happines.
Natasa

Hi [?],

Am I right in assuming that you are asking how to "weight" the factors in this chart rather than how to interpret them?

EJ

Why are you SO focused on just the internatl aspects as they are 'facets' of personality, but the 3most important things in a natal chart are Asc, Sun and Moon sign.... loads of info just there, plus

5 in fire, 3 in earth +asc, 1 water, 1air + MC

This person has plenty of fire, energy and drive, is very practical, not overly emotional, sentimental

LACK OF PLANETS IN AIR (zero or one planet)

AIR COULD MAKE SWEEPING STATEMENTS WITH NO LOGICAL THOUGHT BEHIND THEM! Tendency to over-emphasise the intellectual development, by way of compensation; they tend to read a lot or study subjects that interest them! Enjoy learning about theory and systems as their minds are always open to learning something new. Makes for interesting and diverse companions.
Because this person could be so preoccupied with CREATIVE FUNCTIONS, EMOTIONAL INVOLVEMENTS OR THE REALITIES OF LIFE, that the matters requiring rational or thoughtful consideration ARE USUALLY GIVEN LITTLE ATTENTION OR DISMISSED ENTIRELY. The judgment is that attention is already overburdened with more pressing considerations elsewhere. This person may feel ­intimidated by intellectual, communicative type individuals and frequently chastises them.

MAY NOT THINK (ENGAGE BRAIN) BEFORE SPEAKING! ‑ DOES NOT MEAN THEY ARE UN‑INTELLIGENT THOUGH!

MAJORITY OR SURPLUS OF PLANETS IN FIRE (five or more)
People with lots of fire planets ARE USUALLY QUITE SHY. These people are open and joyous and idealistic with people they know well, but they can be occasionally rather shy unfamiliar circumstances and around strangers.

Lots of fire can cause problems in relationships; they do not communicate their needs easily. They seem to have difficulty in asking for what they want and in communicating their needs to a partner; because of this the timing of love‑making can be occasionally hit and miss type. They could resent people who are unable to read their minds! Since they can tune into a partner's needs, they expect it in return, and can be disappointed by a partner's "human‑ness." Sexually too many fire planets can be limiting. Fire signs are idealistic and want their minds read. Have difficulty

Generally tend to speak with energy, "fire of enthusiasm". Fire is thus seen as the activating initiating force. At best it represents creative power and aspiration; at worst, destructive rage and violent passion. Fire can be life‑giving and ­all‑consuming. FIRE SEEKS FREEDOM, SPONTANEITY, SELF‑EXPRESSION. It wants to push ahead (Aries), be noticed in (Leo), aim high in (Sagittarius).
At worst you may be TOO AGGRESSIVE, OVER‑EXCITABLE, inclined to burn yourself out by trying to do to much at once.Impatience can be your undoing! Your method of dealing with conflict is by direct action and confrontation. You might well try to impose your will on the situation in an attempt to overwhelm all ­opposition. YOU TEND TO FLARE UP EASILY BUT RARELY HARBOUR A GRUDGE.

In the work environment you would prefer something that gives you scope for initiative where you can get projects off the ground, make quick decisions, hustle for business. Will need a good margin of freedom and improvisation.

Hello,
By 'situation' I mean the harsh aspects of: (i) pluto opposite (sun conj moon), and (ii) saturn opposite mars. Nobody is looking to 'hurt' anyone. By 'hurt' I meant aggravate, as in other parts of the chart that I interpreted do not lend support in reducing the intensity of the two difficult aspects I mentioned above. I meant are there other aspects that might, unfortunately, worsen the already two main harsh aspects? And that is what I discovered by my reasoning, unfortunately. That is why I also mainly asked about the 'positive' factors of the chart, that might combat the negative or 'hurtful' factors. I am simply talking about aspects here.

And to the question about weighing, yes to some extent I am concerned about weighing the aspects because, to my understanding, more bad aspects than good ones mean a more difficult time. Hence, my request to be shown the positive 'aspects' as astrologer50 has kindly recently shown, that I was at the moment unable to see. And in a similar vein, the concern over the strength or effectiveness of the good aspects that are present like the (mercury trine (saturn,uranus)).

The strength of an aspect is also a technical curiosity as I'd like to know at what point should an aspect be considered worthy of consideration and at what point it is barely existing. Hence, I ask for different people's opinion on how strong the good aspects of (mercury trine (saturn,uranus)) and (node conjunct (jupiter,venus)) actually are and if they can help reduce or combat the harsh aspects.

Jane Doe (sorry but you don't really have a username...) - I think you are looking at things in a far too simplistic way. It's not all about "good" versus "bad". You have to take the whole chart into consideration. For example you keep on trying to insist that the trines and sextiles to Neptune help combat the harsh aspects. They don't. It just means that energy moves easily in those easy aspects, but it could just as easily lead the native to be delusional about how "special" they are and have an overly romantic view on things. Mercury trine Uranus means that the person thinks in very unusual ways, has flashes of insight and likes to say things that are different from the norm to make people think. If other aspects of the chart were to show that this person gets along well with others, and authority figures then this could be great for someone's career. However in a chart like this, I would say it would mean someone who thinks of things which are against accepted wisdom. May be someone who thinks up a new revolutionary philosophy. Ditto the Jupiter sextile Mars aspect leads tremendous energy combined with direction and focus. It can be the aspect of a salesman or the crusader. Once again in a chart like this I would say it is more likely to be the crusader.

By a chart like this, I see this as a chart of someone who has enormous self-belief (sun conj. moon), (jupiter sextile mars), enormous energy and drive (jupiter sextile mars) and who fights a lot with authority (mars is the highest planet in the chart though not in the 10th house) and the sun conj. moon opposition to pluto. Moreoever as pointed out the sun, moon, pluto aspect is focused around the houses of material goods and values. Also Mars is opposed Saturn Retrograde, once again showing problems with authority. This is the chart of a revolutionary, a crusader and given the Neptune aspects, possibly someone willing to be a martyr (self-sacrifice for a romantic ideal/cause - hey, you know the 8th house also deals with death...). It's not the chart of a "reasonable" person but well you know the world is sometimes advanced by unreasonable people.

Venus which would show how well they get along with others, is in the 7th house as is Jupiter. This would indicate that their personal relationships are good. However the only major aspect Venus makes is square Neptune which once again leads to the highly romantic, somewhat unrealistic nature of this person.

Also just because a house is empty doesn't mean that it is bad. It just means that house is not a particular focus of that person's. It's actions are shown by the planet ruling the cusp of the house. It is definitely possible to have a successful career without having planets in the 10th house. The lack of planets in the house itself just means the native doesn't really focus on it in particular.

I may be presuming things here but I notice that your questions are heavily focused on the person's career. I get the impression that this is what you mean by the question of whether they are "doomed". Why do you care so much about their career?

The thing is looking at that chart, I don't see someone who will have a successful career - if by that you mean someone who goes to work, makes a good salary, etc. I just don't see it happening. This is a person who fights against authority for a cause they strongly believe in. And they are willing to put their all into it, no matter unreasonable or foolish they seem to others. It doesn't mean that they are "doomed" - working for a company or getting along with authority is not what everyone wants. For some people they would be terribly unhappy. Which actually brings me back to your focus on career. Is this person actually worried about their career or is it just *you* who are worried about their career? If they are unhappy may be it's because they are trying to be a normal worker but what they really want to do is throw it all away, write revolutionary messages (Mercury-Uranus) about universal compassion for the poor or weak or even poetry (that Neptune influence...) and make people think and picket companies and get thrown in jail for civil obedience. May be that kind of life is what would make them really happy. Not everyone necessarily wants a career or would be happy having a career.

[? said:

....The strength of an aspect is also a technical curiosity as I'd like to know at what point should an aspect be considered worthy of consideration and at what point it is barely existing. Hence, I ask for different people's opinion on how strong the good aspects of (mercury trine (saturn,uranus)) and (node conjunct (jupiter,venus)) actually are and if they can help reduce or combat the harsh aspects.

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Aspect strength is determined by the closeness of the orb, with exact (0 degrees) being the point of maximum strength. Also, if the two planets are moving towards a 0 degree orb ("applying") the aspect is deemed to be stronger than if they are moving away from each other ("separating"). Sometimes, applying/separating is described as approaching/departing.

So, Mercury trine Saturn has an orb of 7 degrees and is separating (because the faster planet/Mercury is moving away from the slower planet/Saturn). This makes the influence extremely weak, so I would ignore it completely. And you should now be able to see yourself why the node conjunction to Jupiter is stronger than to Venus.

For your information, I use maximum orbs of 8 degrees for conjunctions : 6 degrees for oppositions : 4 degrees for trines : 3 degrees for squares and 2 degrees for sextiles. However, some astrologers use 8 degrees for them all and you have to decide from experience what orbs seem right to you.

(Note : The reason why applying/separating aspects are considered is because an applying aspect will get stronger by progression of the chart whilst a separating aspect gets weaker. So, the progressed applying aspects will affect the individual for longer than the progressed separating aspects.)

But, of course, the aspect strength is only one factor in determing the influence of the two related planets. Each planets inherent strength will also play a major part - and this is determined by factors such as their sign/house placement, the number of positive/negative aspects they have with other planets and the relative closeness of each planets orbit to the sun.

Hopefully, you can see from this that your question is not an easy one to answer - but we will keep trying for as long as you keep asking/bear with our difficulty.

EJ



Mercury trine Uranus however has an orb of only 1 degree and, although separating, this is an extremely strong influence that cannot be ignored.