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View Full Version : I disagree with Ptolemy! =0


Pallas-trine-Mars
08-01-2008, 06:17 PM
And you will too when I explain. I guess this is the right thread, if not, will someone move it? To all you traditional astrologers out there, please don't put a hit out on me, I'm just stating an opinion, I can't change the Tetrabiblos (no one is above the criticism of this Virgo asc native!)

This is in regards to triplicity rulership, a concept almost entirely abandoned by modern astrology. To me, this concept is simply a bad idea (even number of signs, odd number of planets, that should've told Ptolemy right there that the idea was moot, but he made it anyway). We could make 7 planets rule 12 signs evenly, but when it came down to triplicities (8 sects but only 7 planets) it was either not possible to acomodate everyone perfectly, or Ptolemy was just wrong. Let me explain:

First up is the Fire triplicity: In the Tetrabiblos, Ptolemy place this triplicity with the Sun by day (The Sun is the king and undeniably takes his prefered sect) and Jupiter by night. These planets were chosen because they both are associated with the fire element by domicile and are of the day sect; even though Mars is more firey in nature than either of these planets, he just has to back up and wait til Ptolemy could find a spot for him, being of the nocturnal sect because he's too hot (the irony, too hot for the fire element)!

Next up is Earth: Three feminine signs, so just toss the girly planets at them! Venus by day because the Queen Moon must have the the cool night, her preferred time (though her association with Earth here makes her technically debilitated in her own sign wtf?). Poor Venus, ruling the dry Earth signs by hot daylight, where she can't just 'blend in' to a social atmosphere like she'd like to. Only one of the Earth signs (her own Taurus) has any respect for her at all, one ignores her (Virgo) the other too busy fighting for success and recognition to care about love, emotion, art and beauty (Capricorn, exaltation of Mars, though Ptolemy says Venus is more comfortable here by day, I still suspect she's naturally peregrine here). This combo doesn't really work well I think.

Next up is Air, and this one is the most perfect of all! Ok, Mars, I'm sorry, you're just gonna have to keep waiting because you have nothing to do with this element (Mars is probably back somewhere burning ants with a magnifying glass or charging around screaming losing what little patience he has!) Because Saturn is so extremely cold, he is easier to put up with by day, and so this is his natural sect and the one by which he controls the Air triplicity. It works because he already rule(s/d) Aquaurius, where he was though to be happier than in Capricorn(?) and is exalted in the other Air sign Libra. Mercury has no sect, so the nocturnal one is fine for him. It also completes it because Mercury rules the other Air sign Gemini! Each Air sign has representation here!

Last element: Water. Any water-natured (cold and wet) planets left to associate this element? No? Any feminine planets? No? Any water rulers? Oh, I guess there's... Mars? Well, he rules Scorpio... Ok, Mars, if you'll kindly stop chasing that pack of wolves we've got a place for you!
Mars (has a loud, shrill voice): "Really?! It's about time! Where?"
The Water triplicity! Mars is dazed and says nothing. And you can have the whole thing because there's no one left to do it. "What am I suppose to do with the *&^%#@ water triplicity!? Yeah, my sign kicks ^ss, but that confused fish one!? And the mama's-boy crab that always worries too much to take care of business! I can't have this, give me the fire triplicty!" Sorry, Sun and Jupiter have that one, you'll have to take this one, so sayeth Ptolemy. It works partly because the water element is cocerned about survival, but logically it makes no sense at all! Water (cold and wet) kills fire (hot and dry), plus this element is mostly such worriers to just take Mars'... "suggestions" of impulsive action and violence.

Had he known about Neptune, he might've (or might not've I don't know) assigned it to the water triplicity by day, but traditionally to this element of fruitful signs, it should be Jupiter, the fruitful planet, that rules by both sects and Mars (considered a sterile planet) who gets the night sect of the Fire triplicity. Perhaps Venus and Saturn should switch? Honestly, there's holes in the whole system.

Maybe what Ptolemy should've thought of is one planet to rule each element, and the other three to rule a modality, such as:

Fire: Mars (Both hot and dry or Sun)
Air: Jupiter (Both hot and wet or social Venus or Mercury)
Earth: Saturn (Both cold and dry or physical Venus)
Water: Moon (Both cold and wet or also feminine Venus [I know, I just put venus possibly 3 places!])

Car: Sun (Creators or Mars)
Fix: Venus (Maintains)
Mut: Mercury (Changeable)

Just some thoughts.

Kaiousei no Senshi
08-01-2008, 08:07 PM
Actually, I disagree with Ptolemy's triplicity rulers myself. I prefer Dortheus'

First up is the Fire triplicity: In the Tetrabiblos, Ptolemy place this triplicity with the Sun by day (The Sun is the king and undeniably takes his prefered sect) and Jupiter by night. These planets were chosen because they both are associated with the fire element by domicile and are of the day sect; even though Mars is more firey in nature than either of these planets, he just has to back up and wait til Ptolemy could find a spot for him, being of the nocturnal sect because he's too hot (the irony, too hot for the fire element)!


In Dortheus' triplicity system there are three rulers. Day, night, and participary. In Fire that's Sol, Jupiter, and Saturn. Sol is hot and dry (just like the fire element) and is a planet that is weakened by the cold and moistness of night. Jupiter who is hot and moist is less weakened by the cold and moist night, so can comfortably take Fire by night. Saturn is descructive by excess coldness and so is placed into the Fire triplicity (which is hot and dry) to make him less desctructive and more favorable.

Next up is Earth: Three feminine signs, so just toss the girly planets at them! Venus by day because the Queen Moon must have the the cool night, her preferred time (though her association with Earth here makes her technically debilitated in her own sign wtf?). Poor Venus, ruling the dry Earth signs by hot daylight, where she can't just 'blend in' to a social atmosphere like she'd like to. Only one of the Earth signs (her own Taurus) has any respect for her at all, one ignores her (Virgo) the other too busy fighting for success and recognition to care about love, emotion, art and beauty (Capricorn, exaltation of Mars, though Ptolemy says Venus is more comfortable here by day, I still suspect she's naturally peregrine here). This combo doesn't really work well I think.

The three the other system uses is Venus, Luna, and Mars. Venus by day since she is drying and moist and can perform comfortably in the heat of the day since her sphere is closer to the hot and dry sphere of Sol than Luna. Luna is Earth by night as she is cold and moist and rules the nocturnal sect, she can't perform comfortably in the daytime. Mars is descructive due to an excess of heat, so we put him in the cold Earth triplicity to cool him down and make him less destructive.

Next up is Air, and this one is the most perfect of all! Ok, Mars, I'm sorry, you're just gonna have to keep waiting because you have nothing to do with this element (Mars is probably back somewhere burning ants with a magnifying glass or charging around screaming losing what little patience he has!) Because Saturn is so extremely cold, he is easier to put up with by day, and so this is his natural sect and the one by which he controls the Air triplicity. It works because he already rule(s/d) Aquaurius, where he was though to be happier than in Capricorn(?) and is exalted in the other Air sign Libra. Mercury has no sect, so the nocturnal one is fine for him. It also completes it because Mercury rules the other Air sign Gemini! Each Air sign has representation here!

Saturn, Mercury, and Jupiter are the three rulers of the Air triplicity. Saturn is excessively cold, so we can't put him as the night ruler or else he'll go crazy and kill us all, so we put him as the day ruler (hot and dry) and ruling Signs that are hot and moist which are contrary to his excessively cold and dry nature, making him more favorable. Mercury is a gender neutral planet and can work comfortably in the nocturnal sect. Jupiter is the only planet who exactly matches with the temperment of the element, as he is also hot and moist, so acts as participary ruler.

Last element: Water. Any water-natured (cold and wet) planets left to associate this element? No? Any feminine planets? No? Any water rulers? Oh, I guess there's... Mars? Ok, Mars, if you'll kindly stop chasing that pack of wolves we've got a place for you!
Mars (has a loud, shrill voice): "Really?! It's about time! Where?"
The Water triplicity! Mars is dazed and says nothing. And you can have the whole thing because there's no one left to do it. "What am I suppose to do with the *&^%#@ water triplicity!? Yeah, my sign kicks ^ss, but that confused fish one!? And the mama's-boy crab that always worries too much to take care of business! I can't have this, give me the fire triplicty!" Sorry, Sun and Jupiter have that one, you'll have to take this one, so sayeth Ptolemy. It works partly because the water element is cocerned about survival, but logically it makes no sense at all! Water (cold and wet) kills fire (hot and dry), plus this element is mostly such worriers to just take Mars'... "suggestions" of impulsive action and violence.

The water triplicity is ruled by Venus, Mars, and Luna. Venus is a phlegmatic planet, though warming in nature and can operate more comfortably in the warm sunshine. Mars is hot and dry, so we put him in the cold and moist water triplicity in the cold and moist night to really take the fire out of him and make him more a favorable and temperate planet. Luna is participary as a phlegmatic planet.

Had he known about Neptune, he might've (or might not've I don't know) assigned it to the water triplicity by day, but traditionally to this element of fruitful signs, it should be Jupiter, the fruitful planet, that rules by both sects and Mars (considered a sterile planet) who gets the night sect of the Fire triplicity. Perhaps Venus and Saturn should switch? Honestly, there's holes in the whole system

Take the time to read the philosophy of Sign rulerships and you'll discover there are no holes. I disagree with Ptolmey's Triplicities as well, but you'll have no doubt noticed that his and Dorotheus' are pretty much the same except for the addition of the participary ruler and the different Water triplicity rulers. Read and understand logic behind things before you go around trying to poke holes in systems you don't entirely understand.

Pallas-trine-Mars
08-01-2008, 09:24 PM
Read and understand logic behind things before you go around trying to poke holes in systems you don't entirely understand.Kai, don't come around to people's threads and rudely tell them what you think they do and do not understand and act like you're some knows-it-all expert, I don't appreciate it and I will not tolerate it; take that attitude somewhere else.

Nextly, I have read a little on the participating rulers before. That concept was almost ignored by Ptolemy though he did make some mention of this (mainly when he was describing the water rulers where he states that Mars being only planet left goes to the water element for all it's sects but still states the Moon and Venus participation).

To me, even with the participating rulers, it's still flawed. For example as I mentioned about the Moon being ruler of Earth, this debilitates her in her own sign (Venus is debilitated also in the sign of her exaltation technically) because they (Water and Earth) are opposed.

I can understand how Dorotheus tried to make harmony by putting the malefics in places where they are weakened, but I still disagree, and I don't care how old their theories are. I'm just looking at it as like-with-like; and Saturn is totally different than the Fire triplicity. That's all.

Kaiousei no Senshi
08-01-2008, 09:30 PM
I apologize, I didn't mean it to come across as snippy as it did. :-S However, you do come off as not entirely understanding it because you're coming up with modern interpretations and other forms of dignity to base your claims off of when, obviously, they are not at all included in this. I don't see domiciles setting the stage of exaltations, so neither are included in the creation of the Triplicity rulers. It's the ignorance of the logic of the system that I was pointing out, and being ignorant of the system doesn't give you a good point to "poke holes" and disagree with things.

I can understand how Dorotheus tried to make harmony by putting the malefics in places where they are weakened, but I'm looking at it as like-with-like; and Saturn is totally different than the Fire triplicity. That's all.

This is exactly my point. You're trying to do things that aren't what it's based off of. It's not a like-with-like system, you know this, yet you're still trying to base your argument off of it. It doesn't work like that, and making these kinds of statements is what makes people think you don't quite understand what you're implying. You call me the "know-it-all expert" when to me you are coming off as "I know better".

If you want to learn about Triplicity rulers, read Dorotheus and Valens, they use them fairly often.

Pallas-trine-Mars
08-01-2008, 10:57 PM
I would like to suggest the idea that mixing fire and water produces steam.

The fire of Aries is all about self and aggression.
The water of Scorpio is about reproducing one-self, instincts and steamy passion.
The signs of Aries and Scorpio blend themselves into the energies of Mars.
Mars dual energies of fire and water mix to make steam, which can burn as hot as fire.

So Mars is a water planet (as well as fire) and Scorpio is a water sign, but this means HOT water.
The logic follows that with Pisces and Cancer, one is the COLD water and the other is a pleasant balance of WARMYeah, I know Mars rules Scorpio, but the planet just isn't the stereotypical ideal of "water" and this is almost echoed by the fact that Mars is in fall in the first water sign (Pluto is more reminiscent of hot liquid, but this isn't traditional).

I like things neat and balanced and a system like that does not work for me either.I said it before, 8 sects but only 7 planets, you're gonna have to 'fanagle' and accept the imperfect creation.

Pallas-trine-Mars
08-01-2008, 11:12 PM
I apologize, I didn't mean it to come across as snippy as it did. :-S However, you do come off as not entirely understanding it because you're coming up with modern interpretations and other forms of dignity to base your claims off of when, obviously, they are not at all included in this. I don't see domiciles setting the stage of exaltations, so neither are included in the creation of the Triplicity rulers. It's the ignorance of the logic of the system that I was pointing out, and being ignorant of the system doesn't give you a good point to "poke holes" and disagree with things.



This is exactly my point. You're trying to do things that aren't what it's based off of. It's not a like-with-like system, you know this, yet you're still trying to base your argument off of it. It doesn't work like that, and making these kinds of statements is what makes people think you don't quite understand what you're implying. You call me the "know-it-all expert" when to me you are coming off as "I know better".

If you want to learn about Triplicity rulers, read Dorotheus and Valens, they use them fairly often.In that case I apologize for taking offense. My interpretations aren't really modern, much of what I said is more-or-less what can be said to be 'timeless' beliefs; I mean that people have said many ofthe things I said for centuries and modern astrologers agree (the elemental humours are very old). One of my favorite links, online translation of the tetrabiblos, you'll see some of what I said is nearly verbatem:
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Ptolemy/Tetrabiblos/1B*.html#18

The fact that it's not like-with-like to me almost disqualifies the systems relevance. It's hard for me to understand how something that's not like something else in this case would have any involvement with that thing; though I'm not saying I dismiss it or don't respect it.

wintersprite1
08-01-2008, 11:34 PM
The fact that it's not like-with-like to me almost disqualifies the systems relevance. It's hard for me to understand how something that's not like something else in this case would have any involvement with that thing; though I'm not saying I dismiss it or don't respect it.

Okay a little off topic, but I am sitting here reading this and thinking... how cute!! Your screen name says it all... Pallus (finding patterns and reorganization there of) trine Mars (forcing and forging)... I understand where you are coming from on this, I have an overactive Pallus conjunct the MC in Scorpio.

TK

Kaiousei no Senshi
08-02-2008, 02:55 AM
My interpretations aren't really modern,

A lot of it really was though, but that's besides the point.

The fact that it's not like-with-like to me almost disqualifies the systems relevance.

The triplicies are based on making the planets favorable based on humours and sect, not about making them happy. In order to make them favorable we have to play around with their conditions. We want to amplify the effects of Venus and Jupiter (the benefics) by putting them in places that agree with their nature. At the same time, we want to even out the malefics who are destructive by excessiveness, so by balancing out excessively cold Saturn with heat and excessively dry Mars with moistness, we make them more favorable as we've downplayed their malevolence by making them more temperate.

I hope that makes it make more sense to you.

Pallas-trine-Mars
08-02-2008, 04:50 PM
Okay a little off topic, but I am sitting here reading this and thinking... how cute!! Your screen name says it all... Pallus (finding patterns and reorganization there of) trine Mars (forcing and forging)... I understand where you are coming from on this, I have an overactive Pallus conjunct the MC in Scorpio.

TKWeird, I never thought about it like that... You blew my mind a little.:60: And yeah, there's no way to make a neat system with the only 7 planets of ancient astrology!

Pallas-trine-Mars
08-02-2008, 04:57 PM
Water has three states - steam, liquid and solid ice.
Which one would be Scorpio/Mars?Very hard to say, I'd say ice is probably there favorite form, easiest to control. But when working, water, unstoppable energy. When angry, steam that rapidly condenses into boiling hot water which is then thrown at the enemy. :)

Since Scorpio is often related with atomic energy, maybe simply an atom of H2O?

Pallas-trine-Mars
06-07-2010, 10:24 PM
I knew I wasn't crazy, Morin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Baptiste_Morin_%28mathematician%29#Morin_and_astro logy) was thinking more like I was too. ...Or are we both just crazy and Ptolemy was actually infallible lol

His triplicity (day, night, participating):

Fire:
Sun, Mars, Jupiter.

Earth:
Mercury, Saturn, Venus

Air:
Saturn, Venus, Mercury

Water:
Jupiter, Moon, Mars

He mostly kept it within the element, so you don't see the Water-affiliated Moon ruling Earth for instance, then followed sect and if there was a conflict he gave it to the planet who had more in common with that element or was more dominant, so even though Jupiter and The Sun are both affiliated with the Fire element and are diurnal, the diurnal sect of Fire goes to the Sun because he is hot and dry like the Fire humor unlike moist Jupiter and is as a king of planets because of it's brightness and its ecliptic, but not all is lost for Jupiter because he still is mildly dignified in any Fire sign at any time, though he is better for the fruitful Water signs when in sect. Saturn might have been given to Air either because of his exaltation in Libra or because Morin felt Saturn's rule of Aquarius was very powerful.

I still don't personally really consider Mars dignified in the Water element, maybe some familiarity in Scorpio, but is Mercury really better with Earth than Air? I guess their practical awareness is a good channel for his curious eye and does create good, practical realism.. Maybe because of his traditional affiliation with Earth and his exaltation there?

Still: 7 planets + 8 sects = Not something that seems a logical idea to me.

BobZemco
06-08-2010, 05:43 AM
Here's what Raphael had to say:

from --The Essential Fortitudes And Debilities Of The Planetary Bodies As To Nature, Sign, And Aspect

The house, exaltation, triplicity, term, and phase, are fortitude. Detriment and fall, are debilities to every rule they laid down, would be little short of bigotry and credulity. Still, it must be acknowledged that the ancients are entitled to our warmest gratitude, for the wonderful discoveries they made in the theory of celestial influence; and it would ill become the author of this work, or his candid readers, to reject aught that they advanced, without repeated proofs of its fallacy.

We have before observed that the planet Herschel was discovered in consequence of a celebrated Astronomer, frequently observing an irregularity (in the motion of Saturn; that he could not account for by any known theory of the heavens. This being the case, it would naturally be supposed, that the ancients in their observations continually, finding certain effects to follow, the cause of which was unknown to them, would frequently attribute partial effects to fallacious causes, whenever they found the known benevolent influence of Jupiter impeded in an unaccountable way. Hence the theory of the "Terms" and "Phases," [U]which the experience of the present day leads us to reject - -as also the distinction between the day and night houses of the planets; and the attributing one sign to a planet by day, and another by night, in the Triplicities, which evidently is a relic of ancient superstition; since reason itself must tell us, that if a certain planet bears rule in. a certain sign, (especially if posited therein) it must retain that rule, whether by day on night.

The author therefore rejects the distinctions of diurnal and nocturnal rule in Houses or Triplicities, as superfluous and void of truth. . .

The same objection may be made, although on different grounds, to the theory of the Terms and Phases; the author's present system of the "essential dignities" therefore excludes these, as well as the precise degree of exaltatioq; although he acknowledges the absolute truth of the ancient system, relative to the signs of heaven, wherein the planets have their fortitude or strength, by celestial "House, Trigon, or Exaltation;" and also of their consequent "debility" or weakness by the opposite signs, termed, their "Detriment and Fall" The following table will best explain his theory, to the student or curious reader. [Emphasis mine]