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NeptuneAscendant
07-03-2008, 09:15 PM
There's this rare condition... it's unknown whether you're born with it or whether you acquire it. But it's called paraphilic infantilism. And basically those with the condition have a sexual and emotional want to go back to the days of babyhood. They basically are sexually aroused (and emotionally fulfilled) by being a baby and doing baby things, like wearing diapers, sucking on pacifiers, drinking from bottles, etc.

What in the natal chart could show this?

Perhaps a strong Moon, I guess... Maybe some negative aspects to Saturn... I don't really know...

smilingsteph
07-04-2008, 03:12 AM
goo goo ga ga, I poopied my diapers.....
Just kidding...
I am assuming that it could be moon and uranus, uranus is unconventional with sexuality, well along with pluto too, add the moon and you have some maternal conflict issues...
Well maybe we should look for issues with maternal conflict...poorly aspected moon?
Okay fickle gemini here....
I dont even know if these are poor aspects or poor ways of being anyhow, some people just like what they like, as far as sex....
So by me saying that it is poor aspects is sort of judgemental on my part...
I think I will suckle on my blanky now...
:59:

NeptuneAscendant
07-04-2008, 04:14 AM
Hehe... that's a good observation with Uranus and Pluto.

My friend has this condition, and when he was 2-years-old, he had Pluto going right over his natal Moon in transits! So, maybe it isn't in the natal chart, because it's not something you are born with. Or maybe I'm just reading into it too much... @_@

archergirl
07-04-2008, 09:40 PM
He must have been born with Pluto close to his moon, then; Pluto doesn't get far in two years.

Pluto/Moon people tend to be obsessive, so an obsession with rediscovering something that gave comfort (pooping in diapers, perhaps? Nice n' warm!) isn't out of the question.

AG:D

smilingsteph
07-04-2008, 10:49 PM
This entire topic is so interesting to me...no not because I am into it, I saw a Jerry Springer show on it, I know in depth coverage on the issue,
However I saw this man enable the wife into this sexual fetish....that when he came home he would make her dress as a baby, pee and poop in her diapers he would change them and she would go along with it.
They slept in separate rooms, she even went to bed with a nice warm bottle of milk!

So there are those that are also turned on by the actual sexual fetish....I dont think she was into as he was, she just wanted to make him happy, but he never dressed as a baby or wore diapers...

So what would make him do that?
An afflicted moon in cancer?

aquarius7000
07-05-2008, 02:02 AM
You might want to look at how the fifth house (the child in us, and self-expression) is doing. Just a thought.

NeptuneAscendant
07-12-2008, 02:06 AM
Hey all, interesting thoughts.

The fourth house may have something to do with it, because I think that's the house of childhood.

I also noticed his Moon-Saturn midpoint is conjunct his Ascendant (less than 1 degree). I thought that was interesting because I've always associated our inner child with the Moon. Maybe that could be a reason why?

Kingsley
07-12-2008, 04:24 AM
psychologically speaking, developmental issues as early as 3 months old may be applicable to these kind of behaviours. Depending on how fixated the person is will most likely show chart configurations of disfunctional mercury and moon.

Regression to infantile behaviours is one thing, however combined with sexual fetish there may be degrees of abnormal psychology involved. The astrology will tend to show the potential for some sort of dysfunction rather than specific behaviours. Knowing the person and their chart well, may help to identify the strological connections. There could very well be Moon, Merc Saturn Neptune involvements in the Disorder of paraphilic Infantlism, however in sexual fetishes Pluto would be involved.

kingsley

smilingsteph
07-12-2008, 02:10 PM
I am not even sure if I can call this a "dysfunction" Kingsley....I mean some would see regular missionary s e x as abnormal and wrong....
I hate to judge....so to say afflicted this and that is maybe being too judgemental, I am talking about myself too...
However I am not into this as a hobby just so you all know :)

Lissa
07-18-2008, 12:57 PM
moon and uranus, uranus is unconventional with sexuality, well along with pluto too, add the moon and you have some maternal conflict issues...


Hang in there!I have a Moon/Uranus square and there's nothing wrong with me:p (though I still sleep with a teddy bear:eek: Can't believe I said this out loud!)

Yes,I do agree that a very afflicted Moon should do the trick,showing conflicts with the mother image and troubled first years of life.Probably Mars(sex,physical stamina)disturbing the Moon(the mom,first years of life).But really,I believe it would a very troubled Moon to cause such a disorder!

starlink
07-18-2008, 01:51 PM
I think it is virtually impossible to find this abnormality , by itself I mean, shown in a natal chart.

This psychological anormality, i.m.o.falls under a huge umbrella called psychological malfunctions (or something like this).

Other malfunctions like dressing up like a woman (for a man) or behaving like a slave, all different types of sado-maso. All these weird ways of finding sexual satisfaction are found here and all have their roots in childhood if you ask me (not genetic). So all this kind of behavior should show some form of Uranus (different, original, electrifying) connection with the Sun, Venus, Mars and Mercury.

Pluto might come in when people start using leather, chains and whips and the Moon might be aspected by Uranus or Pluto when we talk about these infantile, baby sort of anormalities.

But as we all know, a Venus-Uranus aspect can also just mean that the person has a fear of commitment, a Mars-Uranus aspect that he is utterly technical. There should be far more indication in the chart, also strongly connected with the Ascendant and overall, you could then maybe say, : well, I see so many Uranian and /or Plutonian aspects (not necessarily stress aspects, mind you!! These things come easy to these people, so a trine is just as much an indication) that it is clear to me why this person does these sort of things , probably due to...... and then go and look at the 12th house (very early babyhood) and the 4th house, early childhood for problems that could have caused this sort of behavior.

This is very complex and I really dont think there is a "signature" for this condition.

Starlink:)

smilingsteph
07-18-2008, 02:03 PM
That is very interesting star!
I have venus-uranus conjunction and uranus mars conjunction and really, this is not my thing....I do agree, we cannot generalize these sexual fetishes to one or two placements.
I did not know early babyhood is the 12th house, I am going to look that up in my natal and see what my house says....

Modcleopatra
07-18-2008, 10:05 PM
Ok, as far as so-called "sexual abnormalities" come into play, they only become abnormal when they surface in the public arena, and face scrutiny against current social values and norms. That said, the issue of truly discriminating between a "good" sexual practice and a "bad" sexual practice, seems to be, at the end of the day, if both parties are consenting and capable of understanding the power dynamic involved in ANY sexual activity. I suppose the issue would be then the age of consent, and when one is actually totally capable of understanding power and its part in sexual experience. Where I live I believe one has to be 18 to engage in sex with someone over 18, but 16-18 year olds can have sex with each other. Anything outside of that realm is statutory rape.

I would have to agree with starlink that it is virtually impossible to pull from the chart exact reasons or circumstances for certain sexual predilections or behavior. It's important not to forget that the same thing which makes astrology a credible craft (in my mind at least) is its longstanding use and connection to human growth and wisdom seeking. However, it, like any other form of knowledge, must be flexible enough to adapt to the changing climate of human existence and understanding, and so merely chalking up "strange sexual behaviors" to say, a poor pattern with the Moon and Uranus, ignores that Uranus has been sort of the dumping station for poorly adapted qualities in a human being. I say poorly adapted because the issue with say, this sexual stuff, lies within the nature of the overall CURRENT human attitude towards sex.

If two people are happy having paraphillic infantilistic sex, or if one person really enjoys that kind of sexual activity, what makes it strange or wrong is that it does not fit with our explicit current understanding of how sexual desire operates, which implicitly means that this how society believes it should happen. I tend to go on the idea, as I previously mentioned, that if consent is involved, there are no problems with the kind of sex (and this excludes beastality, as an animal cannot consent through some form of language or higher cognitive functioning) an individual desires to have. Obviously this also rules out pedophilia, necrophilia, rape (marital rape included), etc. I'm not sure how I feel about two adults consenting to incestual sex but that's for another post.

As for anything determining I guess, a longing for a maternal figure, or perhaps identifying with either the maternal figure in a relationship or the infantile state to the maternal figure, what about a super tight conjunction between the Moon and the Ascendant in the first house?

Modcleopatra
07-18-2008, 10:08 PM
Curious... why are the desires to dress as a woman for a man considered "sexual malfunctions" if both parties are consenting, communicate well, and are fine with the circumstances? I mean, how else, if this is really just sexual play, does this count as some sort of psychological malfunction? What if a man desires to dress as a woman because it feels nice to him and the rest of his life is fine, and its society that has the issue?

smilingsteph
07-19-2008, 01:00 AM
Ok, as far as so-called "sexual abnormalities" come into play, they only become abnormal when they surface in the public arena, and face scrutiny against current social values and norms. That said, the issue of truly discriminating between a "good" sexual practice and a "bad" sexual practice, seems to be, at the end of the day, if both parties are consenting and capable of understanding the power dynamic involved in ANY sexual activity.


I totally agree! If two people want to have certain sexual practices and they enjoy it without involving people who are not consenting, then let them, we are not here to say "nasty, dirty, abnormal, taboo" because it should not be us whom is doing the judging....

Kingsley
07-19-2008, 01:08 AM
I am not sure whether anyone is judjing these kinds of sexual behaviours. There are of course many other abnormal psychology sexual issues such coprophilia and nymphomania, urophilia, necrophilia and so on. These are all sexualized aspects of personality. Even cleptomania is of a sexual nature, one where the person takes risks to cheat being caught in the act.

According to the psychiatric association these kinds of fetishes are abnormal. However perhaps it is a matter of time before individualism and ever widenning circles of self choice create a sense of normality with regards to these behaviours?

I think in the 1950's in some psychology circles it was considered that being homosexual was in fact a disorder.

kingsley

smilingsteph
07-19-2008, 02:03 AM
Yes I understand, but to say this is "abnormal" is not fair to these people, like being gay is "abnormal?"
We can go and quote psychology like freud who has many explanations for these sexual fetishes, but my bottomline is that who are we to call these people "abnormal?"
We are judging, when you call someone abnormal for their sexual preferences that is judging in my book!
It is okay to talk about these things, but to label them is not right!

What if I like to do other sexual things other than the missionary style? Say anal sex, but it is between male and female, is that abnormal? What is considered abnormal?
Here is your answer:
What is considered abnormal? It is that of which in your mind you are not comfortable with
No offense Kinglsey you bring up a good point, I just have to say mine too. And my reply is not geared towards one person in particular, but towards the entirety of society...:)

Kingsley
07-19-2008, 02:20 AM
I guess the abnormal psychology bit, is when the person is unable deal with issues without psycho-sexual behaviours which affects their day to day lives and relationships. They are dysfunctional to some degree. Even the non practicing peodiphile has some very difficult issues to deal with. The term "abnormal" can differentiate the more neurotic (normal) psychological issues from ones that invariably reuire medication and psychotherapy. According to some information the paraphilic infantile person avoids therapy completely.

Would you call beastiality and zooophilia normal?

k

Modcleopatra
07-19-2008, 05:31 AM
Kingsley,

as I pointed out in my post, pedophilia and beastiality pose as problems in my mind because 1) there is no verbal/cognitive-based consent, 2) in the case of pedophilia I would argue that someone under the age of 15-16 cannot grasp the power dynamic involved in a sexual relationship and thus should not participate in sexual activity, nor would I think they would truly want to if they could grasp the effects sex has one's psyche. At that age one should be for themselves and sexual activity should be directed inward (hence, I believe strongly that solitary masturbation-- which is not excessive-- is great at this age)

same goes for necrophilia... my rules are consenting PLUS capability.

Abnormal psychology is not a bullet-proof field. To rely solely on ideas of psycho-sexual functionality that attempts to define hard lines in the sand about what is normal and abnormal MUST be considered in terms of the larger society that it emerges from. We consider say, paraphilic infantilism unhealthy because it seems abnormal to a society which parades around images of heterosexual courtship that might, to another society, might seem obsessive or completely ridiculous and unrealistic. But this is how we view sex in this society, currently. Ideally it is between and man and woman who will remain loyal to each other for the rest of their lives, and literally try to make the stars rise and fall for each other respectively. Not bad overall, but not necessarily the only right way to be.

If say, someone's paraphilic infantilism causes them EXTREME strife or causes those they are in a relationship with the be in extreme strife, perhaps there is a problem there. But look, if it gets you going, doesn't hurt anyone (or hurts someone with their consent and in a sane and safe way), and you can keep a job, pay the bills, abide the laws, and maintain friendships, well, I don't really see a problem here.

Psycho-sexual stuff may have some validity, but let us not forget it is a relatively new field which emerged from the highly sexualized Victorian Era (some say it was supressed, but do your research... sex was everywhere! you can't be trying to cover up piano legs if you aren't constantly thinking about sex!) and was embued with racist/eugenic like qualities as well. I think perhaps in about 100 years from now, we might be able to do a psycho-sexual anthropological take on human history and cultural evolution, but right now we are still recovering from the groups like the Nazis who took psycho-sexual ethnic cleansing to the extreme. Let's be realistic here. We can't indefinitely say much about which sexual practices are harmful because society JUST started taking a scientific look at this, as opposed to a religious look, and even sexual science is still steeped in patriarchal religious values. Safe, sane, consensual, no questions asked. Might make for a good Jerry Springer show but as much I love and value the field of psychology, if someone wants to change somebody else's diapers and then masturbate afterwards... if it's two consenting adults... who cares?

peace.

Shining Ray
07-19-2008, 06:38 AM
I would agree with Lissa and look for Moon/Mars in the chart as emotionally they may be immature, and need to act like a baby for nurturing. For some the sexual feeling of the Moon/Mars may be tied in with Neptune, the emotional level is not matured. There is no astrological signature which you can identify it and there are probably different factors in the chart which have contributed to this behavior. I do think it is abnormal behavior and I don't think the person has psychologically matured, and I do feel they need some psychological help, to understand their need to act like a baby. I personally think it is EXTREME to be physically dressed as a baby for hours and saying goo goo ga ga. I am liberated in my thinking and can be accepting of most things, but I wouldn't accept this behavior to reflect a psychologically mature adult. This is an 'adult' who has a need to escape all respnsibilities (avoiding Saturn) and revert back to baby days (Moon) and there is a need to be TOTALLY taken care of like a baby. I do think the person would need to see a psychiatrist. Moon/Saturn may be also in the chart and the person may overly identify with the Moon and reject Saturn, emotional development has probably been delayed in life. Rather than look for infantile behavior look at emotional development in the chart. Although the Moon in all our charts shows our own emotional 'baby' needs. Mine is in the 7th I have had problems with acting helpless, needy and dependent in relationships, but not as a literal baby :p I think then it has GONE TOO FAR. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJls6uZtdHQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJIJtMs0ww8&feature=related

Modcleopatra
07-19-2008, 06:55 AM
I'm curious about the moon showing our emotional needs, and I am keen on developing myself into a mature adult (I'm only 21, almost 22). My moon is in the first house, conjunct mars, both in capricorn... any thoughts on what i should watch out for? Only negative aspect to moon is a weak opposition from a 7th house cancer sun, and mars all happy otherwise, with another conjunction to my ascendant...

Modcleopatra
07-19-2008, 06:57 AM
and I suppose someone who did that ALL day would require help, but as I said, if this behavior only involves one's sexcapades and does not inhibit their life, it is not a problem. I continually qualify my beliefs with what I believe appropriate circumstances are for "strange sexual stuff." What if you make it your career and film pornography?

Kingsley
07-19-2008, 09:53 AM
You make some good points Cleopatra, It seems that we have the system we "do", to classify and differentiate psychological phenomenon. I like the way you can make judgements on other psycho sexual classifications such as peodphiles etc. I don't think I am disagreeing with you there are differences between neurotic (normal), borderline or even psychotic levels of dysfunction with these kinds behaviours. They do tend to be character based elements of personality though. Its ok to have an idea and guidelines to how and why someone does these kinds of things. There are many other areas of regressive like behaviours such as for the hystronic person. I think if one likes having infantile sex, that is ok, however there are better ways to resolve developmental issues and looking for the approvals one needs in life.

k

starlink
07-19-2008, 04:01 PM
I agree with everything you have written Cleopatra. The question is indeed, what is "normal" and what is "abnormal". There are no rules put down, but it is the overall general idea about these things, that makes people scrutinize different things. You are right, if two partners dont object, great! They can do what they want. Personally I have nothing against it.

What interests me however, is, from a psychological point of view, why they exhibit these traits. You must admit that Paraphilic Infantilism is not something that happens to one out of 3! There is a deep psychological reason for this. The partner who goes along with it, also, i.m.o. has a need for a woman who behaves like that. He is probably scared stiff of mature women. Why? That is the question. In my language we have a saying which comes down to Same minded people are attracted to one another ("type looks out for type" is the nearest translation I can think of.

Starlink

smilingsteph
07-19-2008, 07:49 PM
Thank you so much Mod! You said this so wonderfully, much better than I would have said it!!!
Kingsley,

as I pointed out in my post, pedophilia and beastiality pose as problems in my mind because 1) there is no verbal/cognitive-based consent, 2) in the case of pedophilia I would argue that someone under the age of 15-16 cannot grasp the power dynamic involved in a sexual relationship and thus should not participate in sexual activity, nor would I think they would truly want to if they could grasp the effects sex has one's psyche. At that age one should be for themselves and sexual activity should be directed inward (hence, I believe strongly that solitary masturbation-- which is not excessive-- is great at this age)

same goes for necrophilia... my rules are consenting PLUS capability.

Abnormal psychology is not a bullet-proof field. To rely solely on ideas of psycho-sexual functionality that attempts to define hard lines in the sand about what is normal and abnormal MUST be considered in terms of the larger society that it emerges from. We consider say, paraphilic infantilism unhealthy because it seems abnormal to a society which parades around images of heterosexual courtship that might, to another society, might seem obsessive or completely ridiculous and unrealistic. But this is how we view sex in this society, currently. Ideally it is between and man and woman who will remain loyal to each other for the rest of their lives, and literally try to make the stars rise and fall for each other respectively. Not bad overall, but not necessarily the only right way to be.

If say, someone's paraphilic infantilism causes them EXTREME strife or causes those they are in a relationship with the be in extreme strife, perhaps there is a problem there. But look, if it gets you going, doesn't hurt anyone (or hurts someone with their consent and in a sane and safe way), and you can keep a job, pay the bills, abide the laws, and maintain friendships, well, I don't really see a problem here.

Psycho-sexual stuff may have some validity, but let us not forget it is a relatively new field which emerged from the highly sexualized Victorian Era (some say it was supressed, but do your research... sex was everywhere! you can't be trying to cover up piano legs if you aren't constantly thinking about sex!) and was embued with racist/eugenic like qualities as well. I think perhaps in about 100 years from now, we might be able to do a psycho-sexual anthropological take on human history and cultural evolution, but right now we are still recovering from the groups like the Nazis who took psycho-sexual ethnic cleansing to the extreme. Let's be realistic here. We can't indefinitely say much about which sexual practices are harmful because society JUST started taking a scientific look at this, as opposed to a religious look, and even sexual science is still steeped in patriarchal religious values. Safe, sane, consensual, no questions asked. Might make for a good Jerry Springer show but as much I love and value the field of psychology, if someone wants to change somebody else's diapers and then masturbate afterwards... if it's two consenting adults... who cares?

peace.

starlink
07-20-2008, 06:59 AM
My word Cleopatra, I wish I could write like you!! Very much to the point.
But then, my 3rd house is ruled by Saturn (in the 9th, philosophy I love, traveling I dont) and that one squares my Mercury in slowpoke Taurus, so there you have it. Helps a lot with concentration, but that's about it.
Thanks for this excellent post!
Starlink