(Empty space opposing focal planet) T-square issues

[dourage]

Hey folks,

Since forever now I've been trying to figure out the meaning behind my tight t-square, and been trying to decipher the different meanings I've read on different sites, I've gotten from different people, etc. Now I'm asking (please!) for your help to help me figure out how big of a role my T-square plays in my chart and how the energy manifests itself and how I can resolve it. Most of the time I read about the focus being on the empty space opposing the planet that squares both the planets being in opposition with each other...

My t-square is in mutable signs, Gemini Sag and Virgo, Mars being the focal planet in the 10th house, Saturn in the 2nd squaring Mars, Moon in the 8th opposing Saturn and squaring Mars.

In this case it seems my Mars is the most important planet in my chart. First of all because it's the traditional ruler of my Ascendant, second because it's my focal planet in the T-square. I keep reading that people with a t-square tend to have a drive, etc etc. I usually find myself being very lazy, though. However, I cannot seem to sleep peacefully at the end of a day if I didn't do something that helps me get ahead in life. I hate it when I waste my time, yet I do it a lot.

Anyway, I hope you can please help me with this..

chart right here..


Thanks so much in advance.

[flea]

Houses 1 7 and 10 are involved so I was wondering how you feel about your self identity in relationship and how that may be expressed somehow in your public life and interaction with the community at large.

I find that my interpetations of my T-squares change over time and what I am living through at that point in time. I think they have the capacity to give many varied lesson s in the art of living.

Love Light Flea

[wilsontc]

Maudy,

You said:

I usually find myself being very lazy, though. However, I cannot seem to sleep peacefully at the end of a day if I didn't do something that helps me get ahead in life. I hate it when I waste my time, yet I do it a lot.

This kind of says it all! And your chart helps fill in why this happens. You have a T-square focused on Mars (being, also action) focused in the 10th house (Mars in the house of its exaltation, very easy action). So you NEED to "take action" on things. However, you also have Neptune (spirituality, also confusion) square (energy needs to be combined with) Mercury (thinking/daily work). So if you sit around and THINK about what you are going to do (as opposed to thinking about it), you may get so confused nothing happens! This seems to be a chart of "do first, think later"!

You CAN "work around" this issue, if you use your Saturn (duty, also structure) sextile (energy goes easily with) Mercury, and make sure you have some STRUCTURE to your thinking (instead of just thinking about anything). Then your thinking can be used to get things done.

Technical note:
As to the "empty leg" theory of T-squares (that the space OPPOSITE the T-square is important), I have never found them that useful in interpretation. The only use might be if you REALLY want a "break" from all that action, you might want to "get away from it all" in the house opposite the T-square's focus!

Getting away,

Tim

[dourage]

Thanks a lot LLF and Tim!

Tim, what you say about my chart being a do first, think later chart... I wish it were like that. I guess it's all that Virgo, but I DO need to think first (and analyze and analyze and analyze) before I FINALLY decide what I want to do. And most of the time this frustrates me. However, in daily life, I'm kind of impulsive you could say, I guess. Not necessarily with my doing, mostly with talking . I hate that Mercury square Neptune aspect, it makes me so incoherent sometimes. And usually I have these great ideas or opinions I know people would share with me if ONLY I could just explain them, lol. It's also an obstacle when I take exams for my study. I get a lot of "yes, but if you meant that you should've explained it better!"

I'm trying to put structure to it. Nowadays when I learn for an exam, I try to put it all into words and make schedules for myself. It helps, kinda. In daily life that aspect (Merc. sq. Nept) is still a pain in the butt, however. When I finally feel I've explained myself right people go: "huh? say that again?" and then I forgot what I said precisely. Haha.

Anyway, thanks again!

p.s. would you happen to know if there is some sort of planetary pattern in my chart?

[Miss Saturn]

Hi Dourage,

Don't be hating on your Mercury Square Neptune aspect , I share the same aspect and yes absent mindedness strikes a lot, I have read a few criticisms of the aspect and that astrologers' doing "analytical work" would find it difficult and it is not a good placement to have, well two fingers up to them . In reality, major astrologers have the aspect, like Dane Rudyar, Howard Sasportas, Donna Cunningham, Carol Rushman. Probably all these astrologer's had to structure their work, but they have manged it. I wouldn't see it as a hindrance, as you can still have a very capable mind, just organise your thoughts, as you said .

[dourage]

Thanks Miss Saturn,

It's true. The aspect also has it's benefits, like when I write short stories and poetry, for example. So it's not all that bad. Though my main focus at the moment is my study and there I have to be to the point and clear about most things. Which happens to suck, if you can't be that coherent .


About the Mars-Moon-Saturn square, EJ53 send me a message suggesting that I post my experience with the T-square here...

Well, as I've understood it a T-square produces conflict but helps an individual to act and get the show on the road to work most efficiently with the aspect. How I've experienced it, though, is that this show is, mostly, a struggle.
In my case there's a Moon and Mars and Saturn involved, but as EJ53 kindly pointed out to me, Sun is on the midpoint of Venus/Mars so maybe you could add these two planets to the t-square.
All in all I'm a very Saturnian person. I always search for structure and organization. Meaning, I search for it, doesn't mean I always find it. I find it hard to discpline myself, but I experience times when I'm very very discplined and focused for weeks on end, and weeks when nothing comes out of my hands (this happens more often). I'm emotionally very deep, but I can't share my emotions on a deep level with a partner. If I do so it makes me feel suffocated and it makes me want to run. I'm not sure if this has to do with the t-square, but I think it does, because my Sun/Venus/Mars in Virgo (square Saturn) don't feel so comfortable expressing intense emotions. The best way to get them out for me is when I play guitar and when I write. As I was saying... Saturn makes me risk-averse. I want to know what I'm doing, otherwise I will not do it. I'm very career-focused, though realistically so. I'm not really Capricornish like, being all focused on my work (just taking the black and white description of Capricorn here), I see realistically that there's more out there, like a social life and taking care of myself (and I do these things). However, if I don't make an effort, I can get caught up in work and my friends need to drag me out of the house.
Emotionally I'm very intense. I blame that on my Scorpio rising and my Moon being in the 8th.
All of this doesn't really show when you first meet me. I'm very open and I laugh a lot. People don't tend to think I have a serious side (Gemini Moon maybe?).
I'm always in conflict about thinking what I'm going to do and doing it. This can make me seem lazy, when there's really a struggle going on in my head, and sometimes I get really tired from the overload of mental work my head does. My close friends and my family understand this, but to an outsider I might seem like a wuss, seemingly complaining about what isn't there.

Well, pff. That's about it I think. If anybody can tell me where the focus of my t-square lies after this explanation, I'd be very grateful. Also: how does Saturn alter the expression of the planets I've been talking about? For example, my Gemini Moon tends to show a lot when I talk to people, and I'm usually very happy when I'm out there, but I can't really see the big impact of Saturn on my Moon here. It's more clear to me what kind of impact Saturn has on Mars, for example.

[Miss Saturn]

What's your relationship with like your father, or male figures in your life. You don't have to answer if it is too personal. Also earlier I read in your post, that you find yourself lazy, yet the Sun/Mars conjunction in Virgo 10th is probably the least lazy aspect I could think of. Maybe your standards are too high for yourself and your too self critical when you don't accomplish what you want. The T.square is mutable which is more mentally focused. I will re-read your posts and see if I can add some more.

[Miss Saturn]

I have Tracy Marks t.square book, from conflict to co-operation I will see what she says about this type of t.square with Mars as the focal planet.

EDIT: You also have a Sun/Moon square which could be causing a split between your self and needs.. Also I have just read mutable t.squares can be the most scattered, restless and changeable. Maybe you just need to harness this Mars.

[dourage]

No it's ok... if it helps you some... my father died when I was 11. I get along great with males, on a friendship basis. I cannot hold a relationship together, at least, that's how it's been. Thanks for taking a look

[Miss Saturn]

Here is some of what she say on the focal planet of a t.square.

[deleted copyrighted text posted without owner's permission - Moderator]

Basically pretty much what you have said all along . Your good at intepreting your chart .

[Miss Saturn]

Sorry to hear about your father Dourage, I have the Sun/Saturn aspect and lost my father when I was 18 years old, not as young as you. I have always missed his fatherly role in my life. Do you miss his support, your Sun can develop a strong independence (Sun/Mars and self sufficiency (Sun/Saturn) with individuality (Sun/Uranus) quite the mix of energies, I also have Sun/Mars conjunct.

[dourage]

Miss Saturn,

Thanks so much for the information you gave me. Everyone here is so nice and helpful! I really appreciate it and it gives me a lot of insight. Quoting your: "You also have Sun/Moon square.." Yeah, what kind of aspect DON't I have? :38: Seriously

I'm also sorry to hear about your father. I know how hard it can be to lose your father and especially when you're so young. You want to discuss and you want to learn and you want to get to know but death takes those opportunities away. I surely miss him, especially since I don't really know for myself what he was like. I've heard the stories and I have memories, but I haven't had discussions with him about his actions or character traits, and this I really miss. But alas, this is how it is.

Yeah darn, at least they could've gotten me a cardinal t-square or something! LOL.

Btw, what's your Sun/Moon Asc?

Thanks again

[Jeremy]

I started reading through the replies here and as ever I am going to get sidetracked if I spend too long on it. I read Tim's post and have a similar view to his about the "missing leg" theory on t-squares, if something were there you'd get a grand cross after all, and how can that be useful?

My (off the cuff) view for what it's worth. Maybe you're a hard-line traditionalist, but Mars doesn't seem too strong to me, as you say, Pluto looks like a better bet as modern ruler, Gauquelin and the point of a very intriguing and rather beautiful golden Yod. I think there is a profound talent that you are yet to bring to the surface.

Your t-square is to a stellium, that would always be my view; things very quickly become unnecessarily complex if you try to break it all down, but with all that Virgo I sympathise with the impetus. There is a great deal of effort involved in expressing your self harmoniously and with assertion; but with that much energy and tension it will take time. Way more than 20 odd years to see the perfect manifestation, in career evidently. I see a career in an analytical science or some similar blend of Virgoan/Aquarian preoccupations. I wonder if you have ever had any gall-bladder / liver problems and /or leg cramps? My main area of work is medical astrology, so I would say you that you need to eat sensibly, especially in the sugary/fatty foods department.

Stay well,
Jeremy

[Miss Saturn]

By Dourage: Quoting your: "You also have Sun/Moon square.." Yeah, what kind of aspect DON'T I have.

Ha ha I like your sense of humour . I have heard those Cardinal t.squares are ten times better than them shabby Mutable T.squares, but hey sometimes you have to make do with you got :38: .

You want to see my chart, perfection (not ).

I have Sun in Pisces and my Moon in Pisces/7th as you can see they both harmonize and want and need the same thing .Only joking . My Asc is in Virgo with Saturn conjunct opposed my Sun. Moon square Neptune.

Seriously though you sound like you have it all together pretty good. And you have a really good approach to life.

[dourage]

Hi Jeremy,

About the Grand Cross you described.. what I've read in several places is that the opposing empty area of the t-square is the focus of the tension, where it find it's "release". I don't know, it used to make sense to me. If I'm correct a Grand Cross has no focus point, the tension is inside of the Cross involving the four planets (points).

Second, I'm not really traditionally hard-line in anything , so I'm ready to believe you if you say that Pluto is more the way to go in my planet-case. What are you saying about a Yod? I have a Yod? Where?

Right now I'm studying Political Science. When I was a baby, 2 days old, I turned very yellow all of a sudden and had some issues concerning my liver, at least, my bilirubine was not good. I turned yellow for a few days and had to sit in the sun . However, as far as I know that's the only issue I've ever had with my liver. I wouldn't know about leg cramps or something concerning my gall or bladder. When I have issues it's usually concerning my intestines. I do have iron-issues, my HB keeps going down and I have to take pills for that.

I watch what I eat very carefully (what can I say: VIRGO).. I eat a lot of fruit and vegetables... I try to keep away from too much dairy food, but I'm a sucker for cheese. I try to eat the low fat one, though.

Thank you.

Miss Saturn,

I KNOW. All that mutable-ness is just a pain in the butt, really. My cardinal Aries friend can't stand all that mutable-twisting most of the time. He just wants to take action and have a goal, while I go all around the place .

You have a lot of Pisces! I have this thing with Pisces and Aries people. They always show up in my life. That's funny. Thanks for your nice comments.

[Miss Saturn]

I have that thing to either I have Aries friends or boyfriends, and there is a lot of people close to me who have Moon square Mars for some reason.

[wilsontc]

Maudy,

You said:

I guess it's all that Virgo, but I DO need to think first (and analyze and analyze and analyze) before I FINALLY decide what I want to do.

Gemini energy is about "thinking" which is about Social Learning, so "thinking" is about learning by talking to a lot of other people. Virgo energy is different, it is about MATERIAL Learning, so it is about learning by doing things over and over and over. The focus on Mars (being, also action) I mentioned is (as you mention), a focus on VIRGO (daily work, also analysis) modifying Mars (being, also action). So, as you say the "action" is an active ANALYSIS of things (working things out over and over again). This is different from simply "thinking" of things (i.e., random thoughts WITHOUT the analysis).

Explaining and agreeing,

Tim

[EJ53]

Originally Posted by Miss Saturn

.....mutable t.squares can be the most scattered, restless and changeable. Maybe you just need to harness this Mars.

So, playing Flea's normal role as Devil's Advocate, might the "4th leg" in Pisces/4th house = meditation or some other mind-disciplining technique?

EJ

[Miss Saturn]

I have always had difficulty with seeing how the 4th leg helps, I am not arguing if it does or does not work. Obviously books have been written on the subject, which advise you to direct the energy to the other space in the chart. From a personal point of view the planet is not placed there, the energy needs an outlet in the 10th Virgo. But I won't argue with professional astrologer's my gut instinct may be wrong on this.

[Jeremy]

Good one EJ, I might say Feng Shui, with the 4th House involved

[EJ53]

Originally Posted by Miss Saturn

I have always had difficulty with seeing how the 4th leg helps.....

And,

Originally Posted by Jeremy

....I might say Feng Shui, with the 4th House involved

Yes, I am not sure where I stand on this 4th leg issue myself. In Tsquares, the focal planet over/under emphasises the sign/house in which it is placed - so, I can see why the books suggest looking for a (polarity) solution in the opposite sign/house. But, it only seems to work after the problem has been correctly identified. Thus, until Miss Saturn identified the problem as being overactive thinking, who would interpret Pisces/4th house as meditation or Feng Shui? And, once the problem has been correctly diagnosed, who needs astrology to suggest a solution. So, chicken and egg - the books are not wrong, but maybe they are stating the obvious.

(Edit - A fixed star/arabic part conjunct the 4th leg degree might add something useful though.)
EJ:cheers:

[Miss Saturn]

Yes you right EJ you don't always need astrology to give you the solution, if one area is stressed usually the opposite can help. If your too dependent on relationships or other people/7th then finding out who you are, and being true to yourself 1st will help. If you need financial security or other types of possessions to keep you feeling secure (2nd) then the obvious thing is to let go and change, and realise a little crisis doesn't kill you (8th) hopefully . I might be won over by the idea, gradually .

[flea]

EJ, LOL thx!! I have said that at times haven't I ...mmmmm

I have been thinking about the 4th leg thing....from my own experience, of mars trine pluto/uranus... Every guy I had anything to do with had an important planet (Sat/Jup/Sun) on the point of the third leg of the trine with very tight orbs. So I think it is a sensitive point, yet that influence comes from outside us and then forms an energy linkage that changes how things operate.

So maybe other people who can activate the implied grand cross can cause destablising times??

Love Light Flea

[EJ53]

Originally Posted by flea

I have been thinking about the 4th leg thing....from my own experience, of mars trine pluto/uranus... Every guy I had anything to do with had an important planet (Sat/Jup/Sun) on the point of the third leg of the trine with very tight orbs. So I think it is a sensitive point, yet that influence comes from outside us and then forms an energy linkage that changes how things operate.

So maybe other people who can activate the implied grand cross can cause destablising times?

Hi Flea,

I was wondering why you appeared to have "left the building" on this one - apparently to have a ciggie-inspired revelation. (A Devil's Advocate who thinks outside the box - respect!)

Yes, I can see now that a second-party could supply the 4th leg - an opportunity to see in someone else the qualities we need to develop in ourselves. (Think I might start smoking again myself.)

EJ

[Jeremy]

Originally Posted by flea

yet that influence comes from outside us

That makes a lot of sense to me, actually when I read it I thought "doh!" because of course that would be accurate especially since it's an opposition to the placement that is channelling all the tension; oppositions are always played out through others until we take ownership of our issues.

So good call.

Jeremy