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Old 03-24-2008, 01:02 AM
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james james is offline
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Question Who's the Boss: Sole Dispositor vs. Ruler of Ascendant?

I would love to hear the opinion of an expert on a particular scenario I recently discovered in my natal chart, which is attached.

My ascendant is Taurus, whose ruler is VENUS in last few minutes of Aries.

On the other hand, I have a sole, final dispositor of SATURN in Capricorn, conjunct Mid-heaven. As I understand this, Saturn therefore commands the other planets in my chart; or conversely, all the other planets in my chart "report" to Saturn. (I worked out my dispositor trail under the assumption that only personal/traditional planets could rule, and that outer/modern planets could only be ruled, and not themselves rule.)

Now here's where I'm in over my head:

(1) the LOWEST planet in my dispositor hierarchy is none other than Venus (ruler of ascendant). So my two apparent "chart rulers" are at OPPOSITE extremes of my dispositor trail. There is definite tension between these two planets, as low-ranking Venus SQUARES commander Saturn with an orb of ZERO degrees (and separating). I don't think it's controversial to say that this is one of the most important aspects in my chart, as it involves the sole dispositor as well as the ruler of the ascendant. (As far as I can see, there are no significant aspects between either of these planet and Sun or Moon.)

Indeed, I feel very much afflicted by the tension that is said to come with the Venus-square-Saturn aspect. I just read Sue Tomkins' _Aspects_in_Astrology_, and the accuracy of her interpretation of this aspect was at times chilling, not to mention a bit of a downer. However, she did not of course deal with specific issues of Disposition or Ascendant Rulership in her interpretation of Venus-Saturn contacts.

(2) Technically, Venus in Aries is in Detriment, although she does have dignity by Face in the final degrees of this sign. Furthermore, she enters happy Rulership in Taurus less than 12 hours after my birth time. So how does this affect Venus's status? Does this have anything to say about how Venus might hold up (or stand up?) to Saturn? ...To be honest, my Venus feels Arian -- a lone ember smoldering in a sign of Fire, hidden away in the 12th house! But I'm wondering if there's an "official" astrological position concerning the status of planets sitting on such fences.

So to sum up, I'm wondering if someone with experience in these matters would kindly help me gain some clarity on these facts. In particular -- what is the meaning of these two distinct types of "chart rulers" hierarchically opposed in the dispositor trail? Please help me put these astrological facts into perspective. I need closure, I need to move on!

Thank you so much in advance,
j
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Last edited by james; 03-24-2008 at 01:06 AM.
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Old 03-24-2008, 05:40 AM
EJ53 EJ53 is offline
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Re: Who's the Boss: Sole Dispositor vs. Ruler of Ascendant?

Hi James,

To get an "expert opinion" on this, look around the internet (and bookshops) for the views of Alan Oken. (His book "Rulers of the Horoscope" might be particularly helpful.)

In the meantime, I have a non-expert view - based upon my own observations/research on people with final dispositors in their charts.

Firstly, the chart/ascendant ruler and final dispositor do not necessarily compete for control. Each has it's own purpose/objective - with the chart ruler tending to dominate the personality traits and the final dispositor taking ultimate charge of what you do. So, Taurus Ascendant/Venus Chart Ruler indicates a need to make the most of your personal resources/abilities (Taurus) and to experience the sensual/physical side of life (Venus in Aries) - manifesting as a strong inclination to acquire possessions (and/or partners). But, the Saturn Final Dispositor will be concerned with establishing personal authority/control in some 9th house area - and that objective will be woven throughout the events of your life like a pattern in a curtain. Thus, both Venus and Saturn will be dominant in your life - and their respective strengths/weaknesses (in terms of house/sign/aspects) will determine the ease/difficulty in exerting that influence.

Secondly, I'd say Venus at the end of the dispositor chain suggests that - in relation to the Saturn objective - the personality traits/needs are subordinate. For example, if the Saturn/9th house was about becoming an authority in some area of education, acquiring possessions would not be allowed to stand in the way of achieving that - in fact, the Venus need might even be used to acquire the materials needed to attain the Saturn objective. (But, I'm only guessing here as I've never given any thought to this before now.)

Finally, the most dominant influence in your life is likely to be the moon+chiron conjunction in the kite formation (consisting of Pluto/Neptune/Mercury/Moon+Chiron). That is more likely to be visible than the effects of either Venus or Saturn - but, you're right to sort out your understanding of the roles of those two first.

EJ

Last edited by EJ53; 03-24-2008 at 07:06 AM.
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Old 03-24-2008, 02:55 PM
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starlink starlink is offline
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Re: Who's the Boss: Sole Dispositor vs. Ruler of Ascendant?

Hello James, nice question you have for us!
You indeed have a final dispositor (as you have no mutual receptions in your chart, otherwise you cannot have a final dispositor as you probably know) in your chart. This is a relatively rare thing to have and highly significant in a chart, as is a "high-focus" planet, which you also have, and this is Neptune as he is the handle of a Bucket pattern. Neptune is also a high focus planet because it receives most aspects. Saturn, your final dispositor is furthermore elevated (9th house) which adds to his importance.
I would give the final dispositor more weight than the fairly weakly placed Venus. Being in a critical degree and in the 12th house she is certainly much weaker than Saturn, elevated and in own sign and dispositor of all that is happening in your chart.
Saturn is truly the boss here because he also pushes Venus further back into a corner. She (you actually) is already quite reclusive, not very outgoing there in 12, clearly not happy in Aries in that critical degree and on top of that Saturn causes her to keep her mouth shut even more so.
However, this could change over time as by progression, Venus indeed enters her own dignified sign, gaining strength and Saturn, after all, is retrograde pulling back out of the square. It is very difficult from your chart here, to see of course in which degrees the planets are situated. If I am not mistaken, you also have a square from Mars to your Ascendant which is not shown here.
Neptune is the other one to watch as it is not only the handle of the Bucket pattern, modern ruler of your Moon and Chiron, but also is part of the Kite formation with Moon/Chiron , Pluto and Mercury (who is ruled by the Moon). You seem to be a very sensitive person and with Neptune in your 6th house, most probably have healing qualities. You could heal others because you know what it is to have been emotionally hurt (Moon conj. Chiron and Venus in 12 squared by Saturn, so strong in Capricorn not to forget the Moon/Chiron opposition to Pluto in your 4th house).
With Saturn as final dispositor, you will be able to constructively bring these energies together in a profession. After all Saturn is in the house of the higher mind and meditation could be one of the methods for focussing energy.
Cheers, Starlink
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Old 03-25-2008, 12:22 AM
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mdinaz mdinaz is offline
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Re: Who's the Boss: Sole Dispositor vs. Ruler of Ascendant?

Your chart is very similar to mine, I have the same ASC and MC, with the Sun at 12 Gem rather than 14 Gem, with some of the same planet positions and houses (you must have been born at the same date/time as me but a year or two earlier). You have Tau on the ASC but Venus is very weak here, in a late degree in the 12th house, squared by a powerful final dispositor Saturn. The Node is trine Venus however, which leads me to believe that the goal in this life is to transfer the power of Saturn to Venus, by incorporating the energies of this 5th house where the Node is. In other words, find a profession or way of life that involves 5th house activities and bring that Venus back to the forefront. The Node and 5th house are in Virgo and Mercury is very well placed and strong, even though in Pisces but trine Neptune and the Moon. Those 5th house pursuits should be approached with communication/healing in mind, perhaps using talents in those fields in the area of helping kids, or coaching kids in sports, etc.
I see that the Moon is actually the final dispositor for Venus, so whatever you do must be emotionally satisfying. The Moon is conjunct Chiron, so something that assuages the childhood past would be good.

Last edited by mdinaz; 03-25-2008 at 12:25 AM.
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Old 03-25-2008, 12:30 AM
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Re: Who's the Boss: Sole Dispositor vs. Ruler of Ascendant?

Dear EJ,

Wow! And thank you! Where to begin? First, thanks for the book recommendation. Next time I'm in the US or UK, I will definitely track down Oken.

The distinction you make between the meaning of the final dispositor vs. the chart (ascendant) ruler is exactly the insight I was grasping for. So thanks for that, as well!

Finally, you are pretty much on target with your "guess" that ascendant ruler / personality traits are subordinate to final dispositor "objectives". This is something I hadn't considered before, but it seems to be have been borne out in the specifics of how I managed over the years to relocate to another hemisphere and establish myself professionally here. Good call! Maybe you're more expert than you think!

Thank you very much for your analysis. I am saving your response in my special astrology folder ;^)

james
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Old 03-25-2008, 12:58 AM
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Re: Who's the Boss: Sole Dispositor vs. Ruler of Ascendant?

Dear Mdinaz,

Thanks for your reply. A couple of comments:
-- Right, I was born a few years before you, and my birthday is two days after yours. (I saw your birthdate on your profile.)
-- You wrote: "I see that the Moon is actually the final dispositor for Venus..." I don't see how the Moon could be Venus's FINAL dispositor, however. I tried using *modern* planet rulership, and I ended up in an infinite loop going around the perimeter of my Kite (Venus > Mars > Sun > Mercury > Moon > Neptune > Pluto > Mercury > Moon > Neptune > Pluto > Mercury etc.) So if you have a different method of deterimining dispositors, I'd be curious to know more. (Using classical rulership protocol, my final dispositor is Saturn, as indicated in my original post).
-- You wrote: "...Mercury is very well placed and strong, even though in Pisces but trine Neptune and the Moon". Actually, Mercury is in Cancer. That must have been a typo, right?

Thanks again, especially for the node-related advice! ;^)

james
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Old 03-25-2008, 01:44 AM
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Re: Who's the Boss: Sole Dispositor vs. Ruler of Ascendant?

Dear Starlink --

Yes, I'd have to agree that I'm sensitive and emotionally pretty beaten up... I'm better now...scarred, but better ;-). I regret to report, however, that I don't have any healing abilities! At least none that I'm aware of. That's something I'd be interested in developing, though...

I see what you mean about Neptune in my chart, but technically, I disagree that my chart displays a "bucket" pattern. According to the article on "Natal Astrology" on Wikipedia:

Bucket : This pattern is similar to the bowl except that one of the planets is in the opposite hemisphere to all the others.
Bowl : In this pattern the planets are grouped into a 'bowl' of one hemisphere of 180 degrees, or the equivalent of six zodiac signs.

So it doesn't sound like there's a bucket in my chart, as Neptune shares the W. Hemisphere with Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, and Pluto.

BTW, you are right when you wrote: "If I am not mistaken, you also have a square from Mars to your Ascendant which is not shown here." I suppose the relevance of this observation is that Mars is the ruler of the sign that houses Venus, the ruler of my ascendant? Not sure what this means, though. What am I missing? (BTW, Mars conjuncts Uranus and Uranus squares ASC with a 1 degree orb, applying).

Thanks for your thoughtful reply, I really appreciate it, and I'm glad you thought my question was interesting!

;^)
james
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Old 03-25-2008, 02:16 AM
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Re: Who's the Boss: Sole Dispositor vs. Ruler of Ascendant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by james
Dear Mdinaz,

Thanks for your reply. A couple of comments:
-- Right, I was born a few years before you, and my birthday is two days after yours. (I saw your birthdate on your profile.)
-- You wrote: "I see that the Moon is actually the final dispositor for Venus..." I don't see how the Moon could be Venus's FINAL dispositor, however. I tried using *modern* planet rulership, and I ended up in an infinite loop going around the perimeter of my Kite (Venus > Mars > Sun > Mercury > Moon > Neptune > Pluto > Mercury > Moon > Neptune > Pluto > Mercury etc.) So if you have a different method of deterimining dispositors, I'd be curious to know more. (Using classical rulership protocol, my final dispositor is Saturn, as indicated in my original post).
-- You wrote: "...Mercury is very well placed and strong, even though in Pisces but trine Neptune and the Moon". Actually, Mercury is in Cancer. That must have been a typo, right?

Thanks again, especially for the node-related advice! ;^)

james
Yes, that was a typo -

Depends what method you use to disposit and what rulerships you use (classical vs. modern). For instance, Venus is in Aries and shines to Mars, Mars is in Leo and shines to the Sun, the Sun is in Gemini and shines to Mercury, Mercury is in Cancer and shines to the Moon. In some methods I've seen, with the Moon being as powerful and strong influence it is, it doesn't shine to an outer planet when it is well placed (otherwise, being in Pisces, it would either shine to Jupiter in classical astrology and Neptune in modern Astrology). If you shine it to Jupiter in Aquarius, then you can disposit to Saturn (classical). Using modern rulers, it would direct from Neptune to Pluto in Virgo, and then back to Mercury and the endless loop which ends back at the Moon again. Saturn is in its own sign and none of the other planets shine back to it using modern rulers, and only the powerful Moon via Jupiter shine to it using classical rules.

Now that I've thoroughly confused everyone, I don't think there's a fast and hard rule about which way to disposit. Personally, I use classical rulers and don't have the Moon disposit to an outer planet unless it is poorly placed (like your Venus is in late Aries in the 12th, square one of the final dispositors). If the Moon in your chart was in another sign, such as in Libra and square Saturn, then I would leave Saturn as the final, undisputed king of the chart. But in my own experience I think it holds as a co-chart dispositor along with Saturn, and with Venus in a distant but still important 2nd place since it does rule the ASC). If you use programs such as Astrolog, it has Moon as co-dispositor, but using modern rulers.

In your particular chart, I think that the discipline and dedication brought about by Saturn in the 9th/10th cusp (adhering to philosophical and metaphyiscal principles) will help you emotionally quantify and fulfill the values and enjoyment/pleasure you seek in this life, especially in finding a career or life path that is good for you emotionally as well as financially. For without the emotional fulfillment and the steady application of effort, that Venus goal will not be finished. And with the Node in Virgo, and Vertex and Neptune in the 6th house and trine Mercury (traditional ruler of Virgo), your current efforts of finding an intellectual as well as metaphysical solution to your problems are the correct efforts.
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Old 03-25-2008, 05:27 AM
EJ53 EJ53 is offline
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Re: Who's the Boss: Sole Dispositor vs. Ruler of Ascendant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by james
I regret to report, however, that I don't have any healing abilities! At least none that I'm aware of. That's something I'd be interested in developing, though...
Hi again James,

Thanks very much for your most encouraging response to my comments.

Now (re. the quote above), let's suppose I'm someone lacking in confidence generally and/or about my astrology skills specifically - can you see how that sensitivity referred to by Starlink has been used to produce a reply that might help to "heal" my self-doubt?

EJ
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Old 03-25-2008, 10:12 AM
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Re: Who's the Boss: Sole Dispositor vs. Ruler of Ascendant?

Quote:
Bucket : This pattern is similar to the bowl except that one of the planets is in the opposite hemisphere to all the others.

Yes, you are right of course, the planets should have been grouped in the 3rd and 9th houses. But just from looking at this chart, Neptune just sticks out, and to me he looks like one planet opposing all the others . So I sometimes bend the roles a bit

Let me show you why I look at this Neptune as the handle to a Bowl.

A Bowl ideally has (but does not exactly have to) all planets grouped in the Eastern Hemisphere of the chart and will be even more pronounced when the angles are involved and the two planets forming the rim of the bowl are in opposition to each other (but, again, they dont have to be in opposition).
Visually however, this Planet to me, looks like a handle to a Bowl.

A Bowl shows that the person can be quite self-contained and subjective and a Kite pattern also often shows that the person can be too self-contained as well so that the rest of the chart may not be used to its full advantage. Thats why I decided that you do have an (imperfect if you like) Bowl pattern. I might be smacked on the head for this assumption by other astrologers for this...... But this is not the only reason why I look at Neptune as a "handle".

We see Neptune, a good sextile away from Pluto and even further away from Saturn, quite alone in the Western Hemisphere.
Not only is he quite alone there, but seemingly plays a very important role in your chart I think because he is part of the Kite and widely opposes your Venus, becoming the most aspected planet (high focus as I mentioned which is just as important as a final dispositor) in this chart. Very important also is the fact that (modernly speaking) Neptune rules your Moon.

So technically it might not be a totally exact Bucket , but in regard to the distance (at least a sextile is required) he is from Pluto and Saturn, makes him for me the handle of that Bowl.

The position of Neptune in relation to the other planets is also of importance. Neptune stands practically straight up in relation to the Bowl. It leans a little bit towards the left which could indicate that you probably know and feel what you want (or did have this before choosing what you wanted to do)but that it could be a bit harder for you to go after it .Nevertheless this Neptune I think represents the outlet for the energies stored in the other planets and could show the special capacity or talent you have and through which you could express yourself.

With ruler of 6 in the 12th, your work could be quite solitary, maybe working from home (ruler 10 in the 4th) and set up by yourself (Uranus, ruler 10 sextile Sun in the 1st).
Moon in the 10th in Pisces conjunct Chiron, very strongly indicates some type of healing work. You dont have to have healing hands to do healing work You could heal people through all sorts of therapeutic work, massage, etc. Thats what I meant by healing power. But who knows, you might have it in you and you just have not find that out. What MDinaz wrote about your Moon conjunct Chiron in your 10th is I think very relevant. You could help others with problems that you yourself had to face during childhood (and 5th house, children, teenagers maybe) is not a bad suggestion at all.

You could be a compassionate, probably also self-sacrificing (Venus in 12) person if you let yourself. (Saturn blocking this maybe to a certain extend)

You wrote:
I
Quote:
suppose the relevance of this observation is that Mars is the ruler of the sign that houses Venus, the ruler of my ascendant? Not sure what this means, though. What am I missing? (BTW, Mars conjuncts Uranus and Uranus squares ASC with a 1 degree orb, applying).
This could maybe show that you are your own worst enemy? That you probably have to learn to stand up for yourself more. Mars/Uranus square Ascendant, especially Mars in Cancer shows a great deal of self defence mechanism at work and a sometimes aggressive attitude towards the outside world. Uranus shows an aversion towards people in authority and a need to be left alone as well if you ask me.
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Old 03-25-2008, 04:38 PM
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Re: Who's the Boss: Sole Dispositor vs. Ruler of Ascendant?

I have to get on a plane in a little while, so briefly...

i'm smiling here to myself because you hit a few nails on the head. For example: "Working from home" (my current situation), "working with teenagers" (i taught high school & university students for 10 years!).

re: MDinaz' comment -- i am actually thinking of going back into education!

Thank you one and all -- this has been great to hear, and an interesting learning experience, as I only started studying astrology shortly after the New Year.
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Old 03-25-2008, 05:24 PM
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Re: Who's the Boss: Sole Dispositor vs. Ruler of Ascendant?

Starlink, just read your answer more thoroughly. What you said about Mars/Uranus at end of message -- YES!!!

j
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Old 03-26-2008, 10:09 AM
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Re: Who's the Boss: Sole Dispositor vs. Ruler of Ascendant?

Hi James! Hope you had a good trip! Thank you for commenting on what I wrote, that for me is always important. Cheers, Star.
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