Black Moon Lillith

[Undo]

I do agree with you there. But a language is only as good as its speakers. Hence why Quebecois French is mostly slang.

Well, to be honest, a lot of my chart points to the 12th House.

Because it's naturally easier for me to have faith and belief in God, seeing as I see it as something personal (and do have a personal connection with (at least in my mind) God), much like Buddhism, I find it disturbing that one person can preach to the masses. To me it's nothing more than religious dictatorship in a system that should be spiritually communist.

I find religious dogma to be unsettling, especially when people say that their God is a loving God and then turn around and say things like "God hates fags".

That sort of thing is unsettling to me.

[cjc]

I found this string interesting. I first heard of Lilith more than 20 years ago when some metaphysically-inclined woman asked me to put it in her child's chart. I was simply told Lilith was Adam's first wife, but nobody really went on from there. I'm learning here. (I believe strongly in simplicity: in using the classical planets and points with due respect to the outers, but I keep myself fairly open to newer concepts.)

I did some reswearch and came up with a couple essays on Lilith, and I'd like the opinions of those of you who regularly use this point.

Check these out:

http://www.antonialangsdorf.de/datei...dorf-essay.php

http://www.horusset.com/RIKB/Lillith.pdf

Let me know what you think.

Thanx,

c

[Undo]

Thanks for the links, cjc.

I'm a novice astrologer myself, so I don't know what to make of Lilith or of the other asteroids. I myself do not believe in simplicity though. Nothing is ever simple to me.

I will admit, the second link, I can not get past the beginning. The Lilith and feminism stuff, does bother me, as now misandry is commonplace and currently accepted in society. But that's probably best left for another topic (even if it does fit in here).

Also, a lot of Astrology aspects from what I've seen and read, deal with females mainly. Which doesn't help me any.

According to Astro.com it's my 9th House in Taurus, according to various Astrology programs it's still 9th House but Aries.

Dali's was 9th in Aries as well.

LILITH IN ARIES often causes an extreme strive for autonomy, leading to problems in partnerships, because you are very interested in partnerships. Perhaps you are changing restlessly possible life partners without committing yourself, because there is always anything wrong with them. With flirts you are courageously, quickly and also successfully, possibly tending to one nite stands. Partnerships and sexual matters can be of uncertainty. You are fair, fighting for justice and peace.

That sounds more like me. I can not stand injustice. Although, the one night stand stuff, is completely baseless or generalized.

http://www.nmazca.com/coeli/lilith.htm

[CuriousGirl]

my Lilith is in Scorpio, conjunct my Venus and my Sun/Moon midpoint.
not sure what it means, but whenever I fall in love, I fall hard, it is always at first sight, always unrequited, I'm always obsessed with the person and then can't forget him for a long time. *sigh*

[Undo]

Originally Posted by CuriousGirl

my Lilith is in Scorpio, conjunct my Venus and my Sun/Moon midpoint.
not sure what it means, but whenever I fall in love, I fall hard, it is always at first sight, always unrequited, I'm always obsessed with the person and then can't forget him for a long time. *sigh*

Lilith in Scorpio should inevitably give some powers of seduction, but in your case, you seem to just go intensely overboard and seduce yourself, it seems. It would also depend on your Venus as well.

Edit: Scorpio also tends to help with detachment, but as long as something else detaches you, they seem to be unable to detach themselves.

This is also coming from a novice Astrologer, so keep that in mind.

[Moulin]

great posts everyone. Thanks so much.... so much insight into this shadow side of lilith.

My lilith conjuncts my MC and mars... anyone know what that means? It trines my vertex and opposes my neptune in 4th :O

sounds awful!

[Undo]

Originally Posted by Moulin

great posts everyone. Thanks so much.... so much insight into this shadow side of lilith.

My lilith conjuncts my MC and mars... anyone know what that means? It trines my vertex and opposes my neptune in 4th :O

sounds awful!

Well, it would depend on where and what your Lilith is.

I'm not too terribly good either.

[Moulin]

hehe, in 10th, taurus...

Originally Posted by Undo

Well, it would depend on where and what your Lilith is.

I'm not too terribly good either.

[Undo]

LILITH IN THE 10th HOUSE lets you gladly manipulate other perople. You strive for fame, power and status, but may not recognize the side effects of these things or you recognize them, but suppress or don't admit them at the same time. The result can be problems, restrictions and in the long run bitterness and discords, which you consider as an interference factor in your life surely. Either you don't accept that another one has power over you, or you are not consciously about others that use their power to your disadvantage at all. And thus you surely are in conflict with leading persons permanently, if you are aware of this, because you need very much freedom, and therefore you also could avoid partnerships or allow them to be on a friendship level only. Probably your demands are much too high, and you overload yourself with responsibilities within the areas of partnership and public relations. This position tempts to taboo breakings, to a questioning of conventions and undemocratic social structures.

Lilith in Taurus tends to be obsessed with beauty too.

Not to say that you manipulate people! But conjuncting your Midheaven could manifest many ways! Perhaps you'd do anything for 'success'? Who wouldn't though? Or it could do the opposite as well. It might not manifest in a particularly evil way. Could be humanitarian as well. Lilith is capable of both, but sways to the dark side all too easilly, it seems.

Conjuncting the Mars, just try adding whatever the Mars is with the Lilith. She'd combine with your Mars, meaning your drive/ambition would be enhanced or at a disability, it all depends, again..

Opposing your Neptune in 4th (again depends on the sign and the other aspects) would manifest in many ways. Neptune in the 4th tends to want to uncover the hidden things in life and determine where people fit into the picture.

I don't really know anything about the vertex.

I'm still beginning, but I'm able to fit pieces together pretty well, I think.

You know your chart better than me, and are probably a better Astrologer.

Use your Neptune in 4th and figure out the pieces of the puzzle that I was able to give you.

[cjc]

Hi, Undo...

I can understand how you would feel the need to incorporate all recent knowledge into your paractice, but did you ever think that the more options you add, the more you're reaching?

Being somewhat familiar with medical literature, I'm well aware of thye big cholesterol debate today... BUT, no matter how much they integrate newly discovered proteins, it all boils down to eat right and exercise.

I think it's the same way as we are with astrology. We have the tried and true (classical), the outers (from Uranus to Pluto), and everything else (probably eventuating in the last time someone flushed the head (loo)on the space station!)

I'd love to debate this further, but a thread of Lilith is not the proper venue. If there is a moderator reading this, would you consider starting a thread on this topic?

Thanx,

c

[Undo]

Originally Posted by cjc

Hi, Undo...

I can understand how you would feel the need to incorporate all recent knowledge into your paractice, but did you ever think that the more options you add, the more you're reaching?

Being somewhat familiar with medical literature, I'm well aware of thye big cholesterol debate today... BUT, no matter how much they integrate newly discovered proteins, it all boils down to eat right and exercise.

I think it's the same way as we are with astrology. We have the tried and true (classical), the outers (from Uranus to Pluto), and everything else (probably eventuating in the last time someone flushed the head (loo)on the space station!)

I'd love to debate this further, but a thread of Lilith is not the proper venue. If there is a moderator reading this, would you consider starting a thread on this topic?

Thanx,

c

A thread on which topic, exactly?

In regards to the cholesterol debate, there's many things to take into account instead of -just- eating right and exercising.

What is wrong with incorporating things? You phrase it like it's detrimental to my well-being. Nothing is ever clean cut and simple. Nothing ever will be. You can explain it in the simplest terms, but you'll miss everything else that happens.

Example:
Everyone knows if you water a plant, it grows.
Why does it grow?
What happens when different chemicals are added?
Why do different chemicals have different effects on different plants?

But, I'll stop with this thread then.

[flea]

When people follow their hearts it can lead to new information or information pertinent to a particular time. I think that this is the case with Lilith, it is starting to seep into our consciousness. Culturally the Lilith Fair Music Festival brought an awareness.

Maybe I have some challenges here and that is why I am drawn to this. Juno/Pholus/lilith all conjcunt tight on the MC in aquarius. All this quincunx my pluto/uranus conjunction.

I do feel that we are challenging gender stereotypes in society, and that Lilith is a help is this regard. And when you look at one polartity you are always looking at the other, so the male and female aspects are both looked at from a feminine perspective? Lilith as just gone through Scorpio is in Sag now, maybe this can help explore some changes in perspective.

cjc -Do what you do and do it well becasue that is your path. It may not be for you to understand anothers path.

Love Light Flea

[SpaceTraveller]

Originally Posted by Joseph Ledzion

Check out some natal charts; look at a picture of those who have a strong lilith, conjunct a powerful planet like Pluto, or in another auspicious position. Look into their eyes, and perhaps you'll see the Lilith.

Yesterday, I found out by accident that Michelle Rodriguez does have her BML conjunct her Sun/Jup. conjunction and she probably does have a Moon, Pluto conjunction also. I had to think about your post, after I realized she has this configuration.

I think this subject is really interesting and fascinating and I would love to find out more about this. (Mainly also because I have been reading a blog recently every once in a while and the writer is using BML in his readings.)

I wish there were more cool websites for this subject.

[Svencanz]

Hi,

The interpretation of the Black Moon varies greatly depending on what thought system you come from.
If seen from the Judeo-Christian perspective, she is "the curse". If you read the stuff by Ivy Goldstein-Jacobsen (from memory) this should become apparent.
If seen from a more contemporary perspective, she is about integrity and wisdom.
So perhaps-paradoxically, the Black Moon does a great job of reflecting yourself to yourself; she also reflects the current state of affairs on earth in that way - given that we do, as we do, exist within an anti-feminie framework. Christianity, by the way, is not exactly pro feminine - althought the Christian era has done "some good" for women (as in policital etc. roles)

Centralised religion, as in Christianity, came about for political reasons - I have studied the history of this - it coincides with political forces wanting to expand their realms; and Christianity walked "hand-in-hand" with this: it was much easier to control people instead of having them talk to their gods in the fields as they used to. Hence Christianity - it did not rise because it was a "better religion" for the people - only the controllers.
Similarly, the reason Russia has (orthodox) Catholicism, is because one of the Peters went for a "shopping trip" to find a suitable religion around year 1000 - he liked the ceremony of Catholicism the best....

In the same way the goldfish in the proverbial fish tank is not aware of the water around itself, seeing a little-discussed object object from withing that framework can yield a very distorting picture.

There's one thing that is little understood about the Dark Moon: the Lilith energy is essentially denied feminine energy; and as it is denied, it is less directive, or directed. That means the Dark Moon energy in anybody's chart (depending on the level of denial) can come from any angle - not just where it is placed physically in the chart. Sort of a desperation. Feminine energy that is not received, accepted and given light by the masculine has a tendency to float around (in the denied state) trying to latch on to whatever.
The most important factor in dealing with the Dark Moon personally, for any person and any chart, is to begin acknowledging feelings, emotions, intuitions etc. This can be scary - and will be a process that takes many years.
Dismissing the Black Moon from a "superior" male perspective, talking about unity (when her story is based on separation) in a false sense and enhancing the do-gooder versus curse dichotomy will do nothing except exacerbate the problem.

Regards,
Sven Carlsson

[Frisiangal]

[quote=Svencanz]

The interpretation of the Black Moon varies greatly depending on what thought system you come from.
If seen from the Judeo-Christian perspective, she is "the curse".........
If seen from a more contemporary perspective, she is about integrity and wisdom.

Agreed.
It's unfortunate that most people read up on Lilith, as per its 'male-written- interpreted' myth and take this to represent its meaning.

There's one thing that is little understood about the Dark Moon: the Lilith energy is essentially denied feminine energy; and as it is denied, it is less directive, or directed. That means the Dark Moon energy in anybody's chart (depending on the level of denial) can come from any angle - not just where it is placed physically in the chart. Sort of a desperation. Feminine energy that is not received, accepted and given light by the masculine has a tendency to float around (in the denied state) trying to latch on to whatever.
The most important factor in dealing with the Dark Moon personally, for any person and any chart, is to begin acknowledging feelings, emotions, intuitions etc This can be scary - and will be a process that takes many years.

My emphasis. Dark/Black Moon Lilith at it most positive.

I would translate 'feminine energy' not literally as (a) female but as feminine= feeling, as opposed to masculine=action. From years of study, Black/Dark Moon Lilith is suggestive of 'an inner active presence felt' (I call it 'first nature feeling', akin to instinct), yet that can be oppressed/ suppressed through SELF-denial if experienced as an unacceptable trait of character. The truth (also about one's self) can become distorted by the negativity of inner images Dark/Black Moon Lilith creates, that bear no resemblance to what is really so. It is these false images that can create 'the demons' within of bad actions, thoughts and feelings that seem to haunt one, until they are faced and seen for what they really are......nothing.

It has been observed that Dark/Black Moon Lilith says much about the innocence of (lost) childhood, that is then taken over by the moon until such a time that one no longer cares what others think, feel, and do, and is guided from within to act and do that which comes 'naturally'.

Frisiangal

[Svencanz]

Hi Frisiangal,

The other confounding matter here is the misunderstanding about male and female energy that appears prevalent in our time: Robert Johnston (?) has written well about this in He, She, and We (three small, but delightful books.)
He describes the negative male "emotive state" really well, by making destinctions between "mood" and "feeling".
Feeling is the active, connective way of working with emotions for a man; the mood is an isolating, internal - and looping - state. I have a Pisces Moon and I really got what he wrote. Being moody for a man is totally counter productive, and yet many men dwell in this.

Similarly, for the female the negative way thinking is to be compared with a constructive way.
I also know from other sources that men do not actually have any feminine energy; so the talk about men reclaiming their feminine side is baloney - what they do is reclaming their sensitive side of malehood.
Whereas, a woman actually has masculine energy. Bizarre, huh?
This is mainly related to fragments of male consciousness that she "adapts" into her body through sexual and other relationships.
These frags can be more or less supportive.

Cheers,
Sven

[Frisiangal]

[quote=Svencanz]Hi Frisiangal,

The other confounding matter here is the misunderstanding about male and female energy that appears prevalent in our time:

Hi Sven,
The zodiacal signs (and their rulers?) have long been termed masculine and feminine of nature, and I think the now popular psychological astrology approach, especially via the work of C. Jung and his 'types', also offers distinct views in this respect.

Robert Johnston (?) has written well about this in He, She, and We (three small, but delightful books.)
He describes the negative male "emotive state" really well, by making destinctions between "mood" and "feeling".
Feeling is the active, connective way of working with emotions for a man; the mood is an isolating, internal - and looping - state. I have a Pisces Moon and I really got what he wrote. Being moody for a man is totally counter productive, and yet many men dwell in this.

When one thinks about it, I can't recall ever terming a woman 'moody' as such rather than giving the mood a title; e.g. depressed, upset, down, bitchy, etc. Yet I had a male friend with Moon in Cancer who had all the symptons...as well as the stomach ulcers to show for it...when it came to internal brooding.

Similarly, for the female the negative way thinking is to be compared with a constructive way.
I also know from other sources that men do not actually have any feminine energy; so the talk about men reclaiming their feminine side is baloney - what they do is reclaming their sensitive side of malehood.

The author(s) was/were male, right???
I personally believe there to be a big difference between feeling (Cancer), emotion(Scorpio) and sensitivity (Pisces). With your Pisces Moon I can appreciate that 'men reclaiming their sensitive side' makes sense to you.

Whereas, a woman actually has masculine energy. Bizarre, huh?
This is mainly related to fragments of male consciousness that she "adapts" into her body through sexual and other relationships.

Indeed bizarre. By the same token could not a male 'breathe in' the essence of feminine energy/consciousness simply by the presence a woman exudes?
In this respect, Black Moon Lilith in a male chart reveals much.

Frisiangal

[Svencanz]

Hi again,

"Indeed bizarre. By the same token could not a male 'breathe in' the essence of feminine energy/consciousness simply by the presence a woman exudes?"

No - he does not breathe it in; he lives inside it.
The feminine is larger than the male, sort of a coccon situation. You will recognise this from client work: when a man is left by a woman, he literally feels as if "the warming blanket" has removed. It is during this stage that he (from a deep, inner child perspective) promises to do whatever to have the blanket reinstated. However, once this has happened he flips back into male (superior) perspective and forgets all about his promise.
I have seen this so often as to make in nauseating.

Sven

[Yennefer]

It has been observed that Dark/Black Moon Lilith says much about the innocence of (lost) childhood, that is then taken over by the moon until such a time that one no longer cares what others think, feel, and do, and is guided from within to act and do that which comes 'naturally'.

This sounds very very familiar to me... I have Black Moon Lilith in Sagittarius conjunct my Ascendant so I see the world through "BML glasses" and indeed, with no effort, I have such an approach to anything/anyone that many just don´t understand it - ´cause I really do not care what others think and do - and that does not mean I don´t care for them, it´s just that their actions, advices etc have no effect on me, doesn´t matter if it is discussing career path or choosing a toothpaste.

I am very much attuned to myself (my Higher self?) and anything I do and think comes from this therefore others´ inputs can´t make any difference. Sometimes it causes problems in relationships with people who wants to influence me in any matter - even if I would willingly tried to be influenced, they simply can´t do so they feel confused and also angry. And sometimes they think I am very cold (I am NOT! I am supersensitive with BML-ASC-Neptune conjunction in Sagittarius!).

Not to speak about gender issues, men just DO have BIG problems with me as they cannot exert any kind of control in the relationship with me. They aren´t being controlled by me and it seems that they don´t know what to do with all this space and freedom thy are getting. They´re frightened

But this probably have something to do with my MC conjunct Saturn conjunct Pluto in Libra so they see me as the one wanting to have control over all.
But I have learned that I can only get control over my life if I stay in touch with the realms within and I find Black Moon Lilith´s energy very helpful in this respect. For me, felt personally, it is as a kind of inner wisdom, untouched by time, connected to something very deep in human soul.

In handling the daily routine, I actually find Saturn-Pluto-MC conjunction helpful for dealing with the world and its requirements - otherwise I think I might have get so much into these inner realms that I would be connected to the great endless wisdom but actually loose contact with the mundane world! So it keeps me going

[jkley]

what is the difference between the mean and true dml aside from positon? i just found dark moon lilith (h13) (h21) on astrodiesnt and it looks as if the mean and true are either conjunct my juno in scorpio or about ten degrees away from that in scorpio...

[witch6]

mine is in 7. h on 5th deg of leo.
it squares mercury,mc and pluto in scorp.
i have trouble realising this position.
does it represents more me or my partners?
help any1?

[Frisiangal]

[quote=witch6]

mine is in 7. h on 5th deg of leo.
it squares mercury,mc and pluto in scorp.
i have trouble realising this position.
does it represents more me or my partners?
help any1?

From study, the MEAN position of Black Moon Lilith has correlated to deep inner feelings within the individual themselves. In Leo this has corresponded with deep feelings regarding dominance.Do you feel dominated by your partners and, if so, why? What are you allowing by NOT doing anything to stand up for yourself.

On the other hand, you could be the stronger one and your partners could also feel that you dominate them through your Scorpionic side. You could easily create (very Leo) an image that isn't you at all and only a role you portray to get your own way and the attention you feel to be otherwise lacking. With Mercury there could be subjects/secrets regarding siblings you refuse to discuss and/or know nothing about about, and/or ( what goes on in) your private relationships. Mercury in harsh aspect to BML has correlated to step-siblings and feelings regarding the relationship with them.

With Pluto you could be always searching for 'the soulmate'; that which you seek in another because you feel it is not part of you. It is....Black Moon lilith in its most positive sense enables you to be aware of, as well as the right to be, who you are .... warts and all!

At its best Black Moon Lilith in 7th can draw people towards it. It possesses a quality that enables one to naturally identify with another. With the strong Scorpionic side as well, the ability to bewitch another and/or be seen as one possessing special powers will almost become a trade mark, if not in yourself, then through those to whom you are drawn.

To jkley:
I'm not sure if you are referring to the difference in meaning, or just the difference in position that is based upon astronomical calculations.
Can't help you with the former, as I have never studied the corrected position.

Frisiangal

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

Black Moon Lilith does not exist as a physical body in space. Have astrologers become so bored with or given up on concepts they do not understand and decided to make up their own things that they prematurely understand because it is they who made it up? Hm...

[Frisiangal]

Originally Posted by Kaiousei no Senshi

Black Moon Lilith does not exist as a physical body in space. Have astrologers become so bored with or given up on concepts they do not understand and decided to make up their own things that they prematurely understand because it is they who made it up? Hm...

Have you ever studied concepts that are 'new' to astrology? Do you place any reliance upon the effect of the newly discovered planets and/or the 'visiting' Centaurs that are correlating to circumstandces previously 'alien to mankind'? Have you ever studied and/or observed the effects of phenomena
with which you are not familiar, but which have correlated with a definite effect upon you that cannot be explained by the known planets? Do you never allow your mind to look further but prefer to stay in the box of what is known to you and rely upon that knowledge for every answer?
Sounds very Saturnal.

The study of the Black Moon and its variants ( and I do not mean the Lilith myth) has been going on for almost a century in Europe, and its tentacles have since reached further to other parts of the world. Yet, the astrologers, unbeknown of/to each other's observations, have come up with the same suggestive ideas of its meaning.
I find that to be more than mere coincidence.

My own almost 9 year study of the MEAN Black Moon followed a Total Solar Eclipse exact conjunct my 12th house Jupiter, at the same time as transiting MEAN Black Moon called Lilith crossed my I.C. to oppose my natal Uranus square Black Moon-Chiron-Ascendant. I had until then been studying the effect of the Centaurs. That very same week a fellow astrologer sent me a copy of the M. Kelley Hunter article regarding Lilith, of which I had never heard before, saying, 'this might be of interest you.' How very intuitive she must have been!! The article 'struck a chord within me' that no other physical planet had ever brought about because, as you so rightly say, Black moon Lilith is not physical. It correlates to a creative inner experience, an inner reality which may/may not find substance in form, and which, for me, formed the basis for my still continuing study.
By coincidence, the forthcoming total solar eclipse of the same series is within orb of my natal 11th house Pluto and squares my 9th house Mercury-Venus. I wonder if the ideas will ever get written on paper.

I have great respect your astrological knowledge and if you decided to study how the mating ritual of Florida Alligators are associated with Neptune in Capricorn and the consequent appearance of U.F.O's , I would respect that too because you are no fool.
If only you could allow yourself to give other astrologers that same respect.

Friesiangal

[Frisiangal]

[quote=Jenna Jupiter]

Moon Conjunction Lilith
Mercury Conjunction Lilith
Chiron Opposition Lilith

Aquarius and 5:th, someone?

What immediately would come to mind is the communication problem between mother and child that causes such pain 'inside'. The physical planets would tell that story.

Moon-Black Moon lilith is becoming a classic for a 'non-relationship' with the biological mother. There is no sense of bonding and belonging and it goes much deeper than a Moon-Uranus clash of natures, for example, where each sees life from a different perspective but can still get along. From observation Moon conjunct Black Moon lilith says much of the inner experiences of the child regarding the relationship and it is 'the images of motherhood' that are created at that time and live on, that can form the bad thoughts and feelings that act as 'demons' that taunt one's life.

Moon in Aquarius needs are to be emotionally free of dependency. Black Moon Lilith can feel enchained if that freedom is lacking. It's what it yearns for. The two together can obviously present difficulties in forming bonding and lasting relationships.
The cause? Look back to the child, whose ideas may still be ruling one's life.

Frisiangal