Venus square Saturn

[spacecadet]

I'm no expert Emi but my thoughts are that this aspect doesn't seem to affect men in such a difficult way as it affects women. He is lucky that you have an astrological understanding and as such are able to focus on his particular needs/talents/qualities etc.

There is never one interpretation of an aspect and the way we integrate the different energies will depend on many factors and other aspects of our chart. I hate to give interpretations of an aspect without studying a whole chart but venus sq saturn in a mans chart could reflect his view of (some) women or the type of women he attracts. You could look to his moon to get a fuller picture of how he views women to see if that sheds light on any potential conflicts, as well as his mars. It will also depend on his sensitivity to energies. You are obviously very aware of these things but many people just dont feel planetary energies in the way we astrology people do!

As per the issue of feeling unlovable/lonly/unworthy. If a parent is aware that that could be a vulnerable part of the childs make-up then you are in a wonderful position to stengthen it through repeat enforcing to that child that he is immensly loved/lovable/worthy/talented/skilled just as he is....and also that he can earn money and have a career doing whatever he chooses (2nd)...avoid comparing him to others.

I think the topic of astrolgoical parenting would make an excellent thread that you could perhaps start. There are so many interesting discussions to be had - can we affect the way that a childs chart is made up? etc. But for now I hope I've helped somewhat to stop you worrying. x

[RockFish]

I have the square.

I think it helped me in a very weird, protracted and reversed way...

When I was young, people would tell me that I should be more feminine, wear make-up, pay more attention to my looks, but Saturn just made me feel utterly embarrassed in doing anything that could make me look feminine...

Somehow, women with the aspect feel that they are not allowed to express their femininity with total freedom. Something about being a girl seems wrong. And that's how I felt. But, on the other hand, there was a good thing about it. Instead of joining the crowd in trying to be "pretty", instead of following that flock, I just thought one day I would meet someone who would like me for who I was, without all the make-up and girlie-looks. Turns out I did, more than once, and the relationships definetely were more than worth it. And I got married, so, people with Venus square Saturn are not necessarily doomed in love. One trine of a transiting Saturn or Jupiter with natal Venus and someone special may appear in your life....

I think venus square Saturn closes the door of the "dating crowd" to the native. We don't deal with love and physical intimacy the same way other people do. One's got to respect oneself, I think. I hated to throw myself in discos and other places and feeling that obligation of finding someone to hook up with....... I hated kissing someone I didn't care about or barely knew. But, of course, I felt there was something wrong with me, since all the others were doing precisely that. If only I knew, I was right!

As I grew older, I decided I didn't have to do the same stuff other people did. I just gave up of trying to be "normal". My teenage years were all lonely, never dated, only one kiss till I was twenty years old. A part of me was lonely and wanted to be loved, but another part loved to be alone... I think part of the problems we feel when we are young Saturn-Venus natives is that we feel we are not normal. If you drop this idea and start doing things your way, it will start to get a lot easier.

[RockFish]

Oh, and BTW,

I met a couple with the aspect, or, better saying the wife had the square and the husband had the opposition... Same issues with looks and stuff, same problems, same difficulties... But once they got involved, they were more reliable than anyone you can imagine, and they were companions for life.

Venus-Saturn makes for people who are trustable to the bone, I think, and utterly commited to a relationship, once someone manages to get past the bunch of Saturn's entrance examinations, tests and delays...

[gaer]

Originally Posted by RockFish

I think venus square Saturn closes the door of the "dating crowd" to the native. We don't deal with love and physical intimacy the same way other people do. One's got to respect oneself, I think. I hated to throw myself in discos and other places and feeling that obligation of finding someone to hook up with....... I hated kissing someone I didn't care about or barely knew. But, of course, I felt there was something wrong with me, since all the others were doing precisely that. If only I knew, I was right!

Ouch. You're talking about the square, and about women only (I think), and I have the conjunction, but you could be talking about me. I also attribute the feeling of loneliness that I grew up with Venus in the 12th, and square Mars was not much help.

And this:

As I grew older, I decided I didn't have to do the same stuff other people did. I just gave up of trying to be "normal". My teenage years were all lonely, never dated, only one kiss till I was twenty years old. A part of me was lonely and wanted to be loved, but another part loved to be alone... I think part of the problems we feel when we are young Saturn-Venus natives is that we feel we are not normal. If you drop this idea and start doing things your way, it will start to get a lot easier.

100% agreement here, even though it might not be astrological. My social life began in college. Before then I had none. The only thing that kept me from feeling invisible was talent in music. I got recognition for that, but almost no friends.

[katydid]

I know how you feel--my daughter has a tight square to Saturn in Aquarius from Merc/Venus [ Taurus/6th] and one cant help but try and imagine what we as parents are doing or not doing in relation to that conflict/opportunity.

She actually has a tight t-square to Saturn from Pluto/Scorpio, opposed Mercury/Venus/Taurus.

So far it has not seemed to affect her emotional relationships too badly. She seems to have fairly successful and healthy 'love' relationships. She is very beautiful and very talented creatively [ venus/mercury in Taurus exact trine uranus/neptune in cap ] so it brings her lots of attention and prospective friends and boyfriends.

However, the apex of the t-square ,being to Saturn /Aquarius in the third, wreaks havoc on her relationships with teachers and administrators and those in authority. It has been very frustrating for her over the years to be, in her opinion, misjudged, and misinterpreted by them. They feel as if she has an 'attitude', or that she is disrespectful, even though she never says anything bad or bratty to them. imo, she tries to avoid problems, so she kind of shuts down, and they in turn interpret that as her 'dissing' them.
Because she is very mature and very strikingly beautiful, they tend to forget she is really just a kid, and take it personally and overreact at times.

Because she has been a film and tv actress, and a succesful one, she is used to being treated as a responsible adult. So if she acts like one in school, they interpret it as her being 'too big for her britiches.' It has been difficult because she is sometimes blindsided by calls I would get from teachers, where in her opinion they 'love her',and things in class are fine, and then they call to tell me that she is 'not recognizing their authority.' She tends to
joke around in class, as if she is on a working set, and she will think it's all good, but in reality, the teacher may feel offended or take it wrong. An equal amount of teachers do LOVE her and say she is their favorite student.
However she, maybe because of the exact t-square, cannot always see which one is which.

HOW PERFECT IS THAT ASTROLOGICALLY == The afflicted Saturn/Aquarius
in mutable houses, being accused of " Not recognizing the administrations authority."

Originally Posted by emi

Oh my goodness Spacecadet, that is very strange. I was looking at my son's chart when I came across some unexpected and upsetting hard aspects, one of them the tight Venus Square Saturn. It is exactly like yours! 5H Venus in Scorpio 2H Saturn in Leo. I know very little about astrology but I am learning and would like to be aware of any way I might help my son develop well, and not feel unloved or unliked or unappreaciated or un-anything (except understood). It seems so strange to me that he has the potential to feel lonely or unaccepted at home or as a child. As a mother, I am a very sensitive and loving (though discipline when needed) person. I am a double pisces, my son is scorpio sun leo ascendant. What could this mean? Can anyone give me any ideas as to how this might play out, or how i can help soften this for him? Are there any other interpretations of this aspect? I guess I am feeling a little worried and already guilty of having failed him in some way, even though he only just turned two. Thanks so much for any advice!!! Hope to learn from you all.

Emi

[RockFish]

Originally Posted by gaer

Ouch. You're talking about the square, and about women only (I think), and I have the conjunction, but you could be talking about me. I also attribute the feeling of loneliness that I grew up with Venus in the 12th, and square Mars was not much help. .

Ah, no, I was talking about women in the beginning, but the last two paragraphs were basically about Venus-Saturn people in general, like us.... you know, the doomed ones who will never get married, never find love, and will even manage to be widowed after NOT getting married, LOL!!!

[AquaAqua]

I have

• 0 degree Venus square saturn
• Venus square Pluto
• Venus square Mars
• Venus opposite north node
• Uranus in H7

Since 19 when i had my first relatiosnhip, its been a roller coster ride. Sometimes when it gets too much...i just sit and let it flow and i don't even know why

Aqua

[gaer]

Originally Posted by RockFish

Ah, no, I was talking about women in the beginning, but the last two paragraphs were basically about Venus-Saturn people in general, like us.... you know, the doomed ones who will never get married, never find love, and will even manage to be widowed after NOT getting married, LOL!!!

Oh no, too funny!!!

At any rate, just to be a wee bit serious for a moment, I had to wait until about age 40, but I met the greatest lady in the world and we are VERY happily married. Perhaps our worst problem is that we both enjoy each other's company so much, we are actually too dependent on each other.

So I think Saturn is also "the great delayer". That doesn't mean that anyone with the square or hard aspect will not find love or happiness, but I'll wager many do indeed find it later in life.

[LittleMiss]

This was an old thread, but it got my attention, and I thought I could share my opinion.

I have this square in my natalchart. I read the quote from Liz Green last night, and it somehow got me a bit depressed, but I've been thinking...

From how I look at it, this square is tough, no doubt, I have (had) really low selfesteem, and been struggling my whole life against the feeling of beeing not wanted, disliked, somehow less likeable then other people. BUT this is just thoughts, it is not the truth. The aspects doesn't indicate what will manifest itself in the real world (I think) but what kind of view we have on the world and ourself. And Saturn ofcourse is fear. Fear of rejections, fear of not suceeding in those areas. So I think the greatest part of overcomming such "bad" ascpects is to recognise them, and see how they color our view of the world. And then - not let the fear and those thoughts control our actions.

When I stop taking the initativ, in fear of beeing rejected, that is when the fear becomes true! When I start listening to that Saturnian voice in my head, that is when I become unloved for real.

I also think that Saturn is the greatest "friend" you can have when it comes to making goals for yourself, working your a** of and reaching those goals. And my goal for 2010, is to attract myself some new friends (beliving that people can like and love me), make good relationships with other people and beliving that I'm wurth all good that can come, and more!

[spacecadet]

a lovely post, thank you.

(yes its an old thread but I'm always keeping my eye on this one!)

[soluna]

Wow, spacecadet, this is very interesting. And Maverick, if you are reading, i second your thoughts on this forum being karmic.
Weren't we just talking about how important it is to find good outlets (physical exercise and creative expression) for the scorpio energy before it gets too twisted?

My son has the EXACT square that you do, Leo Saturn in the 2nd/Scorpio Venus in the 5th.

[byjove]

Originally Posted by gaer

Oh no, too funny!!!

At any rate, just to be a wee bit serious for a moment, I had to wait until about age 40, but I met the greatest lady in the world and we are VERY happily married. Perhaps our worst problem is that we both enjoy each other's company so much, we are actually too dependent on each other.

So I think Saturn is also "the great delayer". That doesn't mean that anyone with the square or hard aspect will not find love or happiness, but I'll wager many do indeed find it later in life.

Wow! I'm surprised, everyone seems to want to fix or help alleviate the problems with this aspect. I've a fairly tight natal Venus square Saturn. Worse still, Saturn rules my 7th. Oh oooo.

I don't want to fix/alleviate anything. At best, relationships tire me; I can't fathom having demands made upon me, and I don't forgive as easily as I'd like. How many times have I read astrologers talking about difficult 'love' natal aspects and saying things like 'fidelity of the mind is more important than the body, so don't be so hung up a partner cheating'. If I didn't care much for relationships to begin with, I certainly don't have time for that! I've a Pisces Venus, and that just doesn't fit into my universe. Other people can do 'those' things all they like, but I've zero tolerance.

One major problem with the Venus/Saturn square I discovered about myself is that I take difficulties in love like a punch to the face, and my heart remembers; I close up like a bank vault!.......It took such a long time to realize I'd let early difficulties on that path change my behavior in such a negative way. All in all, I'm committed to my life firstly. I don't do lonely. When I hear people admit they jump from relationship to relationship it pushes me away further. The times I've been happy dating were great, but I'm in no rush, this can fix itself in time.

[Claire19]

Originally Posted by sallyd

Some old philosopher said 'the stars incline, they do not compel' or some such thing....

You make your own life - irrespective of astrology - don't look at your star chart (or indeed your upbringing) to set the course of your future.

Astrology should give you positive guidance, not set limits on you.

"The stars impel they do not compel"

I think upbringing is very important and we need to recognise what the problems are and from where they stem. It is true that the charts are us, we are not the charts...... however the natal chart does show what influences are at play and what we have come here to learn and karma to balance. THe squares for instance are areas for growth and progress and without them we dont really deepen our character.

[JayM]

My thought is that venus square saturn people are left out of the mainstream society on some ways (as I have read), and when rockfish said just forget everything else and to it your own way... that seems to be a good idea!

Also the purpose of the great delays that saturn brings could be that you have to drop expectation that you have that are not realistic, or getting to know yourself.

Last but not least one of the laws of the universe is to give what you want without expecting anything in return!

[hollercrombie]

Well its great to find such common gorund for venus square saturns. But lets start off with the good before we hit the bad.


Ive got a Cancer Venus in the 12th, squaring Saturn Aquarius in the 7th. Yeah seems pretty bad but ill save that for the end! Ive seemed to have aquired a well refined talent for art matter of fact anything creative, even though i had to be disciplined, as does anyone with a talent, i cant say im the best but im pretty darn good and i can attribute it to the square itself.

Ahhh but the bad shall begin, as with everyone else i seem to have a issue in the love department, well thats what it seems like to others, im fine with being alone then just being frivolous like all my friends are in the love section. But i really think the way i am was because of how i felt with my parents, i can say i am really really hard to emotionally reach, because truthfully im not going to show my emotions to anyone not even the closest of friends lol, i may be a little cold ahem.

[Archer7]

Hello Everyone,

I have been reading your posts with some interest, as I have actually felt some urge over the last few days to discuss Saturn and Venus.

I think it would be inauthentic and futile to deny that this aspect has its moments of low self esteem, loneliness, difficulties feeling in touch with one's ability to value oneself, value others and be valued by others, and downright heart break, to mention a few (we could include depression and loss of pleasure and motivation to live to get really dismal).

Yet let me halt that for a moment and point out something very important: Saturn is exalted in Libra. Saturn, the supposedly cold, harsh planet is exalted in the sign that rules marriage and one to one relationships. According to William Lilly, one of Saturn's enemies is Venus, yet Saturn is exalted in the sign that Venus rules. Can anyone here feel that 'sacred yes' behind the 'no' of Saturn and Venus?

I can. I was born with Venus in Capricorn and Saturn in Cancer (twelfth and sixth houses). They are 17 degrees apart so no direct opposition. Yet recently, in fact, as I write, tr Saturn is squaring my natal Venus in the twelfth and will do so until late this year. With this transit, I relate with just about every challenge mentioned in this post, but I can also say that as a result of this challenge, I now have a greater awareness of what relationships are really about to me. Saturn in fact has helped me greatly to stand up for my self worth (while Jupiter in Pisces currently returning in my 2nd house of values), and see very clearly, for the first time in my life, how a relationship could actually work in my life. I have said goodbye to negative associations and made new, better rules about how I interact with others, my part, their part, etc. Yet one extra idea I add is that this aspect to me feels like its saying, 'become more self sufficient, and give and take with the other through who I truly am, so there is something real that we're sharing, not deception and false fusion' kind of thing.

Has anyone seen the movie 'North and South'? It's an English period drama. I like it a lot because its romance is peculiar. It evolves very gradually over time, and when the characters finally come together, one is left with the impression that they are so convinced, within themselves about each other that their relationship won't merely work, its an inevitable entity!

One more thing. There was a seminar by Liz Greene last year at the CPA called 'Saturn in Love', and it appeared to involve a true exploration of the relationship between Saturn and love. I did contact the CPA to ask if this seminar will ever be published, and not yet known if it will be. Yet it is so worth thinking about, and for those of you born with this aspect, I bet it sure would be encouraging.

Best of Love,

Archer7

[Jules23]

Archer7 what a nice way of looking at it. I have saturn both influencing my pisces venus (squaring) and my sagi mars (conj) and I must say that yes, it can be difficult to be so controlled in both areas, but it also urges on an authenticity in relationships.

At the moment my venus square saturn, is not causing self contempt, but instead a contempt for the outside world. I see people being frivolous all the time, and I really can't connect with that energy the same way. In my world lust (mars) and love (venus) is connected with responsibility (saturn). That is how I work. So I guess we, the children of saturn, need to form our own group, where women start wearing big gowns just like in North and South, and stop showing much skin.

[byjove]

I wonder if that conservatism with flesh comes with this aspect, yes, showing too much flesh just doesn't appeal to me, I deplore that aspect of Westernism. The Japs have got it right with 'showing less skin is more appealing'. Here, here!

[RockFish]

I don't think people here are trying to pretend the aspect is not hard.

It's not a walk in the park, but it's not the end of the world either.

After being told all sorts of stereotypical stuff about Saturn-Venus aspects ("you'll never find love, you'll never get married, you're gonna be widowed, you're gonna be poor, happiness will be elusive forever, you'll suffer with depression forever"), I think it is very useful to have people talk about their real experience with it, which is not easy but no tragedy either.

And the best of all is that some here are really able to see the benefits in the aspect.

[Vagabondgirl]

I dont have a hard aspect to Saturn, but I do actually have Moon/Venus sextile Saturn. Venus has the least orb of 1 in difference of the aspect.

I can say that Ive had a bit of a hard childhood emotionally. My parents split up when I was 5, and my dad raised me together with my brothers. My dad was quite strict when we were kids, but I always knew he loved us more than mum in a way, even though he was more strict than my mum.

Other than that, the only thing I can think of is that some have said I can be experienced as more colder than the average person emotionally. I dont have much problems with social interactions or love life or anything like that. But I think it gives me some kind of emotional shield. I feel I can take more stress than the average person before "breaking" because Ive been used to this stuff from earlier. For me this was "normal".

[Archer7]

Hello Jules23,

Saturn in Sagittarius, Venus in Pisces...wow! My natal Mars is in Sag too and so are quite a few other planets. I do think it is very important to look at the signs each planet is in with these aspects.

For instance, Saturn conjunct Mars in Sag here is looking for a philosophy/faith that is both from passions, instincts (Mars) and yet at once, is realised gradually via Saturn meaning through experience and time. Venus in Pisces to me resonates with my Venus in twelfth, in that it is about love without boundaries. Pisces longs to listen to the inner, subtle call of the heart, and is looking for real fusion via desires and love.

If you look at how and why Sag and Pisces square each other, you might get a closer view of how they do so in your case. I did look into this with other forum members in another forum but the gist of it was that both, ruled by Jupiter in tradition, are looking for wisdom. The difference is that Sag wants to beam 'out' and search, Pisces wants to go inward and contemplate. Perhaps achieving something (Saturn in Sag) in relation to higher learning, such as a degree, or even learning about different cultures and faiths might enhance the compassion and feeling of the world having an underlying unity behind the disparity that Venus in Pisces longs for. Or it could be like exploring art (Venus Pisces) from other cultures or having a philosophy to give your desires meaning for you, etc.

I can also see how with this square you may get frustrated with the often shallow patterns of society, in that Sag and Pisces are looking for 'higher' and 'deeper' ways of relating within oneself and with others.

And Vagabond girl, thanks for your input. I do think that regardless of whether the aspect is easy or hard, we're still dealing with the same themes. I for instance have a trine between Jupiter and Saturn, and it still means that faith is enhanced with the fulfillment of my responsibilities. Sextiles are regarded in astrology as being opportunities for growth. We can say the same of squares if we choose to not curse our difficulties and make some effort for growth. Likewise a sextile just means an easier kind of energy between the two principles, so more easy for consciousness to accept it, or consciousness in some cases (like trines) might miss the lesson due to the ease of flow, which is often unconscious and automatic. I am still working on my own trine and trying to get to live it out more constructively.

Liz Greene for instance found a common denominator in her exploration of various psychopaths, and it was a trine between Moon and Chiron. The trine simply meant that the energy between ones emotions and wounds flowed, so the person wasn't aware of how much they were emotionally wounded. The trine made being wounded like second nature. (see her book, 'The Dark of The Soul') A trine between Saturn and Venus might therefore be just as problematic, and even more so because the person isn't aware that their desires face continual restriction. This is not to say of course that this is the case with every Venus Saturn trine.

Squares generate consciousness and this is one good side to them. I think no matter what the aspect, awareness of how they work in our lives and how we are limited and able to grow is crucial, which is why I don't like to talk natal without psychology and true experience, as Rockfish above mentioned.

[hollercrombie]

A trine between Saturn and Venus might therefore be just as problematic, and even more so because the person isn't aware that their desires face continual restriction. This is not to say of course that this is the case with every Venus Saturn trine.

woah woah, i was just about to correct myself saying that in fact i was mistaken when i realized my venus saturn square turned out to be a trine when i saw this. I wouldnt call my self near pyschopath like moon chiron trine,even though i have moon chiron opposition lol. I find that you take venus saturn aspects with a grain of salt, you can accept the certain supposed detrimental fate or just keep fighting the good fight to make yourself better, maybe to understand how to love, how to be loved. Learn to love is how i take my aspect, i find it not quite a restriction but i know what you mean.

[Archer7]

Originally Posted by hollercrombie

woah woah, i was just about to correct myself saying that in fact i was mistaken when i realized my venus saturn square turned out to be a trine when i saw this. I wouldnt call my self near pyschopath like moon chiron trine,even though i have moon chiron opposition lol. I find that you take venus saturn aspects with a grain of salt, you can accept the certain supposed detrimental fate or just keep fighting the good fight to make yourself better, maybe to understand how to love, how to be loved. Learn to love is how i take my aspect, i find it not quite a restriction but i know what you mean.

That's so interesting, especially how when you spoke of this aspect initially as being a square, you did mention being creative and not showing your emotions outwardly. Just with the not showing emotions or love part, I think this may have something to do with two other things: one, Venus in Cancer is hypersensitive and takes time to trust and open up. Two, Venus in the twelfth (from my experience) often likes to hide so it can feel like its a part of everything on a subtle level rather than break love and beauty up into shallow pieces. Perhaps Saturn here brings the automatic (trine) ability to incarnate your desires, emotions, values, and the trine can be the way you make that effort to be creative.

So Venus/Saturn aspects can potentially be creative, i.e., a need to bring values and desires into tangible expression, not allowed to just dream, have to express it in the here and now....this is why this aspect has been associated with experiencing beauty and meaning through work. If yes, it may very well have to be meaningful work from the heart (Venus).

[byjove]

Can I just say Archer7, that I think your posts on this are very refreshing, insightful and easy to absorb? I can't tell you how much I enjoyed and benefited from what you posted above....

I also have Venus (Pisces) square Saturn (Sagg), and Saturn is my 7th ruler . I can related to much of what has been said above, and the psychology aspect particularly interests me. I really have to agree that we benefit from the exposure this aspect creates. You know, not that long ago I actually thought I was repairing the damage created by the energies of this aspect in my life and the effects of my actions, however, I'm not so sure now. By the way, besides love, I've read much about the social implications of this aspect. Does anyone else detect some social aversion? I was shocked today to discover how much I avoid people sometimes, I wonder if that's accentuated by Moon square Saturn and the introversion of Mercury conjunct MC in Pisces. But social aversion from Venus square Saturn is quite apparent in me sometimes too...but seems to be triggered only at certain times...

PS: Do you follow traditional rulerships exclusively Archer7, or even soley for natal?

[Vagabondgirl]

Originally Posted by Archer7

That's so interesting, especially how when you spoke of this aspect initially as being a square, you did mention being creative and not showing your emotions outwardly. Just with the not showing emotions or love part, I think this may have something to do with two other things: one, Venus in Cancer is hypersensitive and takes time to trust and open up. Two, Venus in the twelfth (from my experience) often likes to hide so it can feel like its a part of everything on a subtle level rather than break love and beauty up into shallow pieces. Perhaps Saturn here brings the automatic (trine) ability to incarnate your desires, emotions, values, and the trine can be the way you make that effort to be creative.

So Venus/Saturn aspects can potentially be creative, i.e., a need to bring values and desires into tangible expression, not allowed to just dream, have to express it in the here and now....this is why this aspect has been associated with experiencing beauty and meaning through work. If yes, it may very well have to be meaningful work from the heart (Venus).

Could it mean love for hard work? Some love relationship btw an older and a younger person. Some kind of learning from creative work. Squares could mean some learning experience in some field, and saturn is a typical "teacher". Squares contain alot of energy and friction, so its up to each individual to decide how they "channel" this energy for better or worse. Its through hard work that you will receive your "rewards" in life. Saturn means hard work, and venus could mean art of some kind.