Philosophy of the Quartet

Kaiousei no Senshi

Premium Member
Since the thread concerning Ceres apparently erupted in a series of misunderstandings and defensive positions, I decided to pick up Arian's idea and go ahead and create a thread concerning Ceres (and the rest of the Quartet if it evolves into that) and the proposed philosophies that surround her.

Of the several, I can think of two that stood out the most. The first assessing possible Sign rulerships, and the second the idea of planets and gender and archetypes that stem from that.

The first being Sign rulerships, some quotes from various users containing the ideas they posted in Joanna's (hope I spelled your name right, getting names wrong makes me very upset) interpretation thread. (Please note, some content may be edited so that they do not appear targeted at one member [as some were] but to be applied to everyone and taken in a less direct manner, the ideas presented, however, are preserved)

joannski3 (paraphrasing the book Asteriod Goddesses) said:
Ceres is symbolized in astrology by the sickle-- the gift of agriculture. She represents unconditional love, the love that is naturally passed from mother to infant. She is best depicted by the signs Cancer, Taurus-Scorpio polarity, and Virgo

Cancer- as ruler of cancer she represents the archetype of the universal mother. How we recieve and give nurturance, how we develop feelings of self-worth, how we provide for and care for others. Also how we respond neurotically if these needs are not met.

Taurus-Scorpio Polarity- governs lesson of attachment and aversion, pathology of loss and rejection, capacity of grief and sorrow, principle of sharing.

Virgo- she addresses the issues of productivity, growth, self reliance, and work.

Kaiousei no Senshi said:
I don't feel Ceres rules any Sign, but instead represents the Earthy Triplicity (perhaps in a cycle) and does best when placed in any of the three.

After skimming through countless articles, the three most chosen Signs to fall under Ceres' domain are Cancer, Virgo, and Taurus. At least with Virgo and Taurus you don't run into the idea of leaving a planet (Luna) without any Sign of domicile, which is a little extreme, I think. Virgo's and Taurus's rulers, however, do have another Sign to fall back on as Saturn, Jupiter, and Mars have been forced to do.

Second being gender associated with the Quartet. Again, snippets from users in the interpretation thread. (same note as above)

lilljgc (using astrology to combat mythology) said:
In the natal chart of Ceres, for example, Ceres is located in house 4-the house that is said to be *the father* so I truly am not sure how the current *definition* of Ceres came into being. Ceres was in Taurus at the time, thus ruled by venus, and in the natal of ceres, venus was in saturn's sign,Aquarius, again emphasising the *Father* aspect of Ceres. Even further,Saturn was in Leo, and the sun was in capricorn-so mutual reception between those two.
I am at a loss as to how ceres has been ascribed feminine qualities.The moon WAS in cancer that day-again the moon/cancer is natural ruler of the fourth so agriculture seems to be an obvious connection to Ceres.
i see no evidence whatsoever that the 4 asteroids have more of an identity for women than men-especially when I see pallas in particular, so prominent in the charts of *successful* men, but not the case in the charts of *successful* women.

Arian Maverick said:
Women have had nothing but masculine archetypes in their natal charts since the creation of astrology, with the notable exceptions of the Moon and Venus.

As each "new" planets was discovered and humanity gained access to their higher energies, masculine archetypes were continuously ascribed until, finally, the energy of the goddess began to enter humanity's consciousness with the introduction of the four "asteroids." I believe it is highly significant that one of these "asteroids," Ceres, now has the status of a minor planet.

Kaiousei no Senshi said:
Perhaps no one in this thread suggested the idea, but you will find several articles that range from saying the Quartet have no interpretation in a man's chart, to them having little effect, to them having some, to them being just as important as the other planets. The idea of the Quartet being 'purely feminine' is out there, and it's total and complete BS.

Trust me, as a young man I feel the Quartet in my life, regardless of what some crazy astrologer tries to tell me about them not being useful to me because I have a Y chromosome.

lillyjgc said:
I don't think it is very *scientific* to say that because other planets have been ascribed masculine archetypes, women should make a grab for the asteroids! surely all the planets exhibit a male and female application.
Which is exactly my point. The *quartet* obviously applies to both genders.
But I am curious why many of the sources I've googled seem to be intent on making them particularly female.

Kaiousei no Senshi said:
This is actually a very good point that you raise, Lilly. The only planets that are archetypally fully masculine or fully feminine are Sol (expressed exclusively through his rulership of Leo) and Luna (expressed exclusively through her rulership of Cancer). Mercury exhibits its masculine side through his rulership of Gemini and its feminine side through his rulership of Virgo. Venus expresses her masculine side through her rulership of Libra and expresses her feminine side through her rulership of Taurus. Mars expresses his masculine side through Aries, and his feminine side through Scorpio. Jupiter's masculine side through Sagittarius and his feminine side through Pisces. Even Saturn expresses his feminine side through Capricorn and his masculine through Aquarius. Two halves (male AND female) through the same planet.

However, I do feel I need to make this point clear as well. Just because Saturn is termed a 'he' or Vesta a 'she' isn't something that stems from astrological archetypes, but from the gender of the god themselves. In all forms of astrology, the gods named for the planets repeat in the same fashion, the "Venus" god is always female (Ishtar, etc), the "Mars" god always male (Nergal, etc). Even Mercury (admittedly asexual by all classical astrologers) is signifed by the pronoun 'he'. Not because the planet itself is masculine (obviously, it is not) but because the god the planet was named for was.

Gaer said:
In my opinion, the dangerous path is to then concentrate only on motherhood, which obviously only relates to women, rather than to concentrate on support, nurturing, perhaps even mentoring—in short, anything that puts you in the background while you put your energy into helping other people get on their feet, make the best of themselves, be the best they can.

My main concern is that this discussion does not degenerate into a pissing contest for who gets to claim Ceres. And I believe that was your point earlier, if I did not misunderstand. In other words, if the whole "Goddess" idea becomes so stressed that people pay no attention to Ceres in the charts of men, I think something very bad will happen. We will only see one side of the picture. I'm too Libran to like that idea!

The important thing, to me, is that as we are evolving, we are moving away from glorifying all that is traditionally male and making all that is traditionally female less important. Also moving away from defining men and women according to traditonal roles/values, which are just a way of putting people into boxes or figurative prisons.

I just finished carefully looking at two charts, of two family members. One is male, the other female. Both are incredibly good parents, supportive, very caring people.

Both have Ceres emphasized in their charts.

One, the mother, has a grand trine, Ceres/Sun/Moon. Ceres is angular, right on the 7th.

The other, father, has Ceres forming a grand trine with Mercury/Uranus in the 7th and Jupiter in the 11th. He supported his father until his death and is still taking care of his mother. If he made any mistakes raising his son, he may have been too lenient, too "soft".

This is hardly conclusive, but it is a start.

Ceres is also important in my chart. It is sextile Sun/Neptune and sextile MC/Pallas. I'm a teacher. I've spent decades mentoring, most often young kids. The one square, Ceres to Mercury, probably shows that I have to be very careful not to be too hard on people, especially with my tongue. I can push too hard, and then I get tears. :(


Arian Maverick said:
Surely you have heard of the ancient axion, "As above, so below?" You can chide me all you want for being unscientific, but I refuse to allow astrology to descend into a calculation of formulae that can be applied to any particular individual regardless of differences that may exist. Cannot astrology be both an art and a science?

Also, do you truly believe that it was a mistake for these asteroids to be ascribed female archetypes, that if we had the opportunity to do so, we should go back and correct this? Surely you have studied astrology long enough to recognize the importance of synchronicity, of the events that were occurring during the time a particular body was discovered? I do not believe it was a "mistake" that scientists ascribed these asteroids with the names of goddesses any more than it was a "mistake" that a child was born at the "wrong time." Such mistakes simpl[y] do not happen.

Of course we are not limited to the archetypes of the names presented to us, but I believe that they play a certain role; you cannot completely disregard these archetypes even if your personal opinions differ from those of others. Ceres' identity and role in a natal chart isn't yet firmly established, yet I do not think it is possible to win the "fight" to make Ceres a masculine archetype. And what does it matter, anyway, as long as the sign and house placements as well as aspects in the natal chart provide us with greater information about an individual? Isn't this one of the true purposes of astrology?

A third point, which was not so much touched on is symbolism and the general nature of Ceres herself. (Same note)

lillyjgc (mythology) said:
Hi all- interesting topic:
Here's a link for those who are exploring ceres.

[URL="http://en.mimi.hu/astrology/ceres.html"]http://en.mimi.hu/astrology/ceres.html[/URL]

Arian Maverick (psychological symbolism) said:
This was an excellent post, and quite sychronistic as well; I don't normally read magazines in the library, but I had time to spare today and browsed through a copy of Psychology Today. The main article that attracted my attention was one about young women and eating disorders, how colleges have become something of a "breeding ground" for such unhealthy behavior because young people have been increasingly brought together with those of their own age not only in school but in extracurricular activities as well; with the gender ratio at most colleges and universities tipping more towards females, some psychologists are concerned that increased contact of young women with others like themselves with fuel competition between them for the attention of males.

Along with striving for the perfect resume, more and more young women are attempting to attain the perfect body, and this has resulted in much distortion in how they view themselves and others.

Therefore, I believe it is no coincidence that you were to bring up this topic at this time; the archetype of Ceres needs to be restored into the mass consciousness.

Kaiousei no Senshi (forgetting the post I was referencing said:
I do agree with the connection between Ceres and eating disorders, either a lack of an or excess of foods. However, one thing is that Ceres is very, very much like Saturn and I didn't see that touched on in your post.

However, philosophy is something I'll argue with you about. I don't enjoy the idea of Ceres as the 'great mother' as mothers are something that are already seen in the significations of Luna. However, whereas Luna is directly a parent-child connection, Ceres continues the relationship to close bonds between peers, people whose shoulders we can cry on. Instead of the Great Mother, I propose the Providing Soldier. She has a positive side which is shown in a never-ending flow of met necessities, and she has a negative side that removes that which we need most.

Arian Maverick (psychological symbolism) said:
This one was in a different magazine of a much different nature; it was some woman's magazine called Glamour. I picked it up because something on the cover attracted my attention, and I quickly thumbed through the pages to find an article written by a Hollywood actor describing his various experiences with women who had undergone plastic surgery, something that is apparently not uncommon in LA. He had described some of his awkward experiences with women with fake breasts and such while intertwining his thoughts and opinions about plastic surgery, trying to determine why the realization that a woman had chosen to alter her body in this way always produced a strange reaction in him, why he wasn't able to view this woman as attractive as he had before.

He finally came to the conclusion that most of the women he had met did not seem to have gone under the knife for the "right" reasons; I believe he thought the "right" reason was to bolster confidence that was already strong within the individual. Yet he noticed that many of the women who had undergone these procedures had either done so to please men they had been with or to mask some body insecurity they had experienced in middle school or high school.

Gaer (psychological symbolism said:
So far I've seen Ceres linked to:

nature/the environment
reproductive issues of an adult woman
pregnancy and childbirth, birth control or menstrual cycles.
motherly love
agriculture and farming
family bonds and relationships
productive areas in a natal horoscope
grief and loss

lillyjgc (mythology) said:
Ceres

by Micha F. Lindemans
The old-Italian goddess of agriculture, grain, and the love a mother bears for her child. The cult of Ceres was originally closely connected with that of Tellus, the goddess earth. In later mythology, Ceres is identified with the Greek Demeter. She is the daughter of Saturn and the mother of Proserpina.
Ceres had a temple on the Aventine Hill, were she was worshipped together with Liber and Libera. Her festival, the Cerealia, was celebrated on April 19. Ceres is portrayed with a scepter, a basket with flowers or fruits, and a garland made of the ears of corn. Another festival was the Ambarvalia, held in May.

Nexus7 with a fantastic question said:
How would most people here differentiate between what Ceres represents in the chart and what the natal Moon still represents?

lillyjgc (mythology) said:
http://www.astrologicallyspeaking.com/ceres.htm
and here's an interesting link-for those *new to Ceres*-I'm not saying I fully endorse this interpretation, but there is a dearth of information about Ceres...

Nexus7 (symbolism and application) said:
I have seen the symbolism to do with grains crop up, to to speak, plenty of times now, so presumably Ceres ought to have a big link with the agricultural and maybe catering industries too. 'Ceres' and 'cereals' after all. I think it figures reasonably strongly for the first election chart for the EU, with heir food piles and their bureaucratic approach to food preparation....I do remember reading a book by one Adelle Davis at a tender age, explaining why nutrition was so importatnt - unfortunately, she pooh-poohed the idea that wheat could really be a problem for many people. Demetra George mentioned that Ceres and Moon were in opposition in her chart. Well, I have them in square, so my experiece there was that Davis was both very right and very wrong about quite a few things there.

Funnily enough, someone started wangling with me and with someone else on another forum recently, about why the need for more goddesses. There is a good friend of mine, a professional chef, who takes huge pride in her work - Ceres rising in Leo. I was then asked if Venus was also strong in her chart - as it happens she has Venus on the Descendant, at which point there was a triumphant 'told you so.'

All the same, when I discovered that Ceres position: it certainly did seem appropriate.

There, okay, I think I took out everything that was usable. If I missed something, please point me to it, I put this together rather quickly.

Feel free to introduce any ideas and charts that represent these ideas if you have them. It should be interesting...

I wanted to come up with something good to close out the introductory post, but I decided to be unoriginal and couldn't come up with anything, however, I think Lilly does it the best with this warning in the interpretation thread.

lillyjgc said:
I think its important NOT to just blindly accept the modern trend of throwing meanings at celestial bodies based on the mythology around their name alone.
 
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lillyjgc

Senior Member, Educational board Editor
Kai- I look forward to this discussion.as Ceres is *relatively new* and not a lot written yet there are plenty of ideas to throw around here...Thanks for collating all this ..After work I'll be following up some of the ideas that are here...Cheers, Lilly
 

smilingsteph

Well-known member
Why is anything female or male? I guess I am an androgenous thinker. However nature has to have the balance of both male and female qualities.
Like Bob Marks says, Ceres is a way to define:
How we want to be nurtured and how we nurture others.
I think that one should not place a female nor male role model to depict Ceres. Both males and females nurture, it is innate.
Looking at Ceres for what it means, rather than whether it is male/female, or has more importance in a male/female chart is besides the point. Look at what it means to you, as a male or as a female then understand and place the meaning in your own life.
 

Kaiousei no Senshi

Premium Member
Those are very good points, Steph, and what I think it boils down to is a misunderstanding of the traditional planets being masculine and feminine. I'll certainly agree that - philosophically - Ceres is a feminine planet following the idea of her being more passive. What kind of consequences does this have on interpretation or influence? Nothing. Especially when you line this up with other planets like Saturn (who I will equate with Ceres very often) who is also a naturally passive planet (being 'cold' in the humour system), but is deemed to be masculine.

Decided to read more, you know, get smart and all that jazz. [brackets represent my commentary]

"In many ways, the polarities of masculinity and femininity are similar to that of sect (diurnal/nocturnal); masculinity representing the active, solar principle and femininity representing the receptive lunar principle. But diurnal/nocturnal definitions seem to be more dependent upon the generation of heat (diurnal) and cold (nocturnal) [Mars and Saturn are exceptions to this rule], whilst the masculine/feminine definitions are more dependent upon dryness (masculinity) and moisture (femininity) [even though Jupiter - hot and moist - is masculine]. It may be that both divisions arose as alternate ways to describe the same essential polarization that modern astrologers prefer to label 'positive or negative'. The masculine/feminine principles are also heavily dependent upon Pythagorean numerological principles, where all the masculine Signs are odd numbered and the feminine Signs are the even numbered ones."

I feel I need to take a small break here and go into this idea of masculine/feminine being odd/even and how it could possibly apply to planets. The days of the week are set up in this way.

Sunday -- Sol -- One (odd)
Monday -- Luna -- Two (even)
Tuesday -- Mars -- Three (odd)
Wednesday -- Mercury -- Four (even, remember, Mercury is both)
Thursday -- Jupiter -- Five (odd)
Friday -- Venus -- Six (even)
Saturday -- Saturn -- Seven (odd)

If we could continue this pattern where it left off and put the Quartet in the order of discovery, Ceres and Juno would be represented by the even numbers eight and ten (thus becoming feminine) and Pallas and Vesta would be represted by the odd numbers nine and eleven (thus becoming masculine). I'm not really sure this can work, as obviously, order of the planets was not the way the original day of the week scheme was set up, but it is something interesting to muse over.

Continuing...

"The masculine planets are Sol and the superiors: Sol, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn; the feminine planets are the inferiors: Luna and Venus, with Mercury being common to both genders. The distinction may be partly based upon the way that the planets emerge from conjunction with Sol - the superiors always emerge on the right side [the right is thought to be masculine and active. Since Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn are slower than Sol, Sol appears to pass them and thus they seem to emerge on his right. Hold up one hand {call it Saturn} and pass your other hand {representing Sol} in front of it, it will appear as if the Saturn hand is coming out from the right of the Sol hand], Luna always on the left [the left is thought to be feminine and passive. Luna is faster than Sol and always direct, so she appears to pass him and is revealed on his left, think about the above experiment except this time labeling the once Saturn hand as Sol and the Sol hand as Luna now] with Venus and Mercury able to emerge on either side [if they are direct in motion, they will emerge on the left of Sol, while they will seem to appar on his right if they are retrograde]." Whew...continuing this idea. The Quartet are all 'superior' planets, being beyond the path of Sol, so they would all be masculine planets if this was the masculinity/femininity of planets was based on.
 
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Hex Astrology

Active member
This is quite amazing, i've been reading this topic and the old one as well. Its really much to read and learn.

I hope I won't bother someone if interfere in this discussion as well.
I'll try a different aproach, even if its strange and maybe a bit off-topic, but its about Ceres in the end.

I was thinking of analyzing the chart of the discovery of Ceres. Even if I don't have the time of the event its still enough for me to find out certain details according to the object of discovery, namely Ceres.

Ceres was discovered in 1 january 1801 by Giuseppe Piazzi. At that time Ceres was in Taurus, which means its dignified in way or another ( Some astrologers say its domicile, others say its triplicity, then others say its exaltation and so on ). I have my own opinins as well, but right now im not trying to solve who is right or who is wrong, Ceres has its dignity since Taurus and Ceres have very similar energies. Or should I say Taurus is the energy, while Ceres is like a magnifying glass that concetrate that energy in a certain way. The most fiting 'magnifying glasses' for taurus is of course Venus and Moon, but I could add Ceres also. Ceres was retrograde at 1 january 1801. Maybe thats why for over two centuries we try to find out more about Ceres. But its just my fiction. :rolleyes:

Probably you all wondering whats the connection between the discovery date and Ceres. As one say the birth chart of a person can reveal almost anything about him. I say its the same whit the birth chart of a discovery, that can reveal almost anything about it.
Usualy when we discover a planet or other cosmic objects, the date we discover it, its the date when human is more atunned to that particular object.
Celestial objects send cosmic influences even before we are aware. But if we discover a particular object we start to be more receptive to it, and then the influence becomes more active and aware. ( Law of atraction? ).
Take Uranus for example, it was sending us influences before 13 March 1781 when it was found in the sky. But after that date, when we discover it, we became more receptive to its influences, we got atunned by it at the moment of the discovery. After that Uranus sudden started to show its influences, revolutions, industrial revolutions, lots of inventions, more freedom, democracy, accelerations of inovations and changes in technology and so on.
Its the same whit Neptune . After 23 september 1846. Neptune started to show us more about religion, theosophy, occult and esoterism. It was before, but whit Neptune, esoterism started to be more public, more people knowing it. Neptune rules also masses of human, giving them more power to change thier nation destiny whitout a leader, just guided by beliefs. Neptune brought more people to be interested in predictions, psychology and philosophy.
Then lastly Pluto. After 1930. Pluto started to show us the dark tendicies of our world. Nuclear power, world wars, political instabilities, science and physics of the small worlds ( Quantum physics, subatomic chemistry ), miniaturization of the technology and many many more.

This would apply as well for any celestial objects. Discovery of Ceres bieng a smaller objects, its influeces arent so big as the planets, but still something that we can be aware of. Now that Ceres is considerated a dwarf planet, we are even more receptive to it, we atract this planet even more. So thats why Ceres becomes important. ( To bad we demoted Pluto, its a sign that we unwarely defy the energies of Pluto ).

So viewing the date of Ceres brings me a lot of information. For example Ceres was in Taurus, its dispositor is Venus in Aquarius. I could have a conclusion that Ceres could rule anthropology and anthropological psychology, expecialy in a feminine way of viewing. Also Ceres is a sign that women will start having more freedom and to participate in social development, politics ( the right to vote also ) and governings, which is more the world of men, now women can have this responsability too more and more. Ceres should be the first asteroid/dwarf planet to signal the posibilty that women slowly will start to have more power ( politicaly at least ), also by the discovery of more more feminine planets/celestial objects ( Juno, Pallas, Vesta, Eris, Sedna, Proserpina ). Like I said the discovery of a celestial planet makes us more receptive to it ( Like its time to have its influences more and more active ).

I hope what I wrote will help. Must go now fast, I got work to do. I'll be back later.
 
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lillyjgc

Senior Member, Educational board Editor
Hex, If you'd like me to post ceres natal chart again here on the new thread, I'd be happy to.This is the approach I was taking on the previous thread-mind you, its only one of the many ways of working out the nature of ceres.But it seemed obvious to me that its not a bad place to start:
My take on it : just moving posts to where they are relevant.)
Originally Posted by lilljgc (using astrology to *combat* mythology)-Kai's edit there!
In the natal chart of Ceres, for example, Ceres is located in house 4-the house that is said to be *the father* so I truly am not sure how the current *definition* of Ceres came into being. Ceres was in Taurus at the time, thus ruled by venus, and in the natal of ceres, venus was in saturn's sign,Aquarius, again emphasising the *Father* aspect of Ceres. Even further,Saturn was in Leo, and the sun was in capricorn-so mutual reception between those two.
I am at a loss as to how ceres has been ascribed feminine qualities.The moon WAS in cancer that day-again the moon/cancer is natural ruler of the fourth so agriculture seems to be an obvious connection to Ceres.
i see no evidence whatsoever that the 4 asteroids have more of an identity for women than men-especially when I see pallas in particular, so prominent in the charts of *successful* men, but not the case in the charts of *successful* women.
 

Hex Astrology

Active member
Im glad that others use this type of method, Lilly :) . ' The chart of discovery ', ' The chart of new celestial objects '. It would be usefull if I had the data's for Ceres chart, since its nowhere to be found, which im refering to the corect ascedent. Probably im not searching better.

lillyjgc said:
i see no evidence whatsoever that the 4 asteroids have more of an identity for women than men-especially when I see pallas in particular, so prominent in the charts of *successful* men, but not the case in the charts of *successful* women.

This statement is good. But when I see the charts of successful men whit strong Ceres, Pallas, Juno and Vesta, it makes them act whit more care and passiveness. Or should I say diplomacy. Women are by nature more diplomatic, but thats not the case. Men whit strong feminine planets could mean they aproach is rather indirect and tend to use diplomacy.
While the charts of women whit strong 4 asteroids could mean ( sometimes ) that they are to indirect in aproach and have lots of yin energy. Thats not bad at all, but in career they might need some yang energy so they can be successful. Yin/Yang balance is necesairy for success. Men whit to much yang on thier chart can be to direct and can atract trouble and enemies for example, need more yin.

Hope i'm right, critics are accepted. I don't got time anymore to write, must go. Later
 
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Kaiousei no Senshi

Premium Member
Ceres was retrograde at 1 january 1801. Maybe thats why for over two centuries we try to find out more about Ceres. But its just my fiction. :rolleyes:

Most planets were retrograde when they were discovered, makes them appear brighter in the sky, so are easier to spot. It is, though, funny that you mention it like that when we're having to 'look back' through history to see what these planets have done instead of waiting to see what they are doing and what they will do which is was the method taken for the traditional planets.

Also Ceres is a sign that women will start having more freedom and to participate in social development, politics ( the right to vote also ) and governings, which is more the world of men, now women can have this responsability too more and more.

I'm not sure when this happened in other countries, but women's suffrage didn't happen in the U.S. until the 1920s, well over 100 years after the discovery of the Quartet.

Ceres was discovered in 1 january 1801 by Giuseppe Piazzi. At that time Ceres was in Taurus, which means its dignified in way or another ( Some astrologers say its domicile, others say its triplicity, then others say its exaltation and so on ).

Uranus was discovered in Gemini, Neptune in Aquarius, and Pluto in Cancer. So that doesn't really hold up so well. Originally I had thought of members of the Quartet as linked with members of the Guardians (Mercury, Mars, Jupiter, and Venus) which really works out pretty well when you consider the discovery charts...until you get to Vesta...

For those of you wondering why the Cererean discovery chart looks funny, there is no time documented for Ceres discovery (apparently, Piazzi doesn't take good note) so we're forced to use the sunrise chart for the day she was discovered as a rule.
 

Hex Astrology

Active member
lillyjgc said:

Thanks. :)



Kaiousei no Senshi said:
Most planets were retrograde when they were discovered, makes them appear brighter in the sky, so are easier to spot. It is, though, funny that you mention it like that when we're having to 'look back' through history to see what these planets have done instead of waiting to see what they are doing and what they will do which is was the method taken for the traditional planets.

That fact I didn't notice untill you told me, thanks. :)

Kaiousei no Senshi said:
I'm not sure when this happened in other countries, but women's suffrage didn't happen in the U.S. until the 1920s, well over 100 years after the discovery of the Quartet.

Probably, my history knowledge isn't that good. But you might be aware that the discovery of more and more celestial objects and bieng named after mythological goddessess, brings further more feminine energies into our world. Ceres is now a dwarf planet, so its a subtle sign that we might unwarely are more receptive to its energy and the other asteroids as well. Eris for example could make women more authorative and hard working, I see it as planet that gives high ambitions.

In the past I heard something that atracted my atention, someone on TV said that " The world is slowly transforming from patriarchy to matriarchy again" that can be proven a bit by sidereal astrology.
-In tropical astrology, Aries, Leo, Sagittaurius, Gemeni, Libra and Aquarius are the masculin signs, which are extrovertive, direct, active, yang energies. Taurus, Virgo, Capricorn, Cancer, Scorpio and Pisces are feminine signs, which are introvertive, indirect, passive, yin energies.
-In sidereal astrology we might get a reverse of some of these characteristics:
In sidereal astrology Aries, Leo, Sagittaurius, Gemeni, Libra and Aquarius are the masculin signs, but this time they are more introvertive, indirect, passive and will try to focus towards yin energy.
Taurus, Virgo, Capricorn, Cancer, Scorpio and Pisces are feminine signs, are now extrovertive, direct, active, more yang energie inclined.
Thats because when the Vernal Point, Autumnal Point, Estival Point and Brumal Point which are powerfull celestial cardinal points change the sign every aproximative 2160 years, their yin and yang energies tend to switch. For example the Age of Pisces according to sidereal astrology could mean that we were into a feminine astrological age, but it was more extrovertive, direct, active, and we were searching to develop out yang energies, even through Pisces is feminine. Now entering into the Age of Aquarius according to sidereal astrology could mean that we were going into a masculine astrological age, but this time it will be more introvertive, indirect, passive, and we were searching to develop out yin energies more, even through Aquarius is masculine. So things are reversing according to sidereal astrology, it might sound confusing, but in kabbalah, kabbalah astrology and vedic astrology there is a explination about this, but I don't want to go to much off-topic. If we were more dominated my male personalities in the past, get ready that in the future women will get more authorative, more independend and more dominant figures ( this isn't something sudden and totaly of course, we shouldn't exagerate, but there are signs already ).

Kaiousei no Senshi said:
Uranus was discovered in Gemini, Neptune in Aquarius, and Pluto in Cancer. So that doesn't really hold up so well. Originally I had thought of members of the Quartet as linked with members of the Guardians (Mercury, Mars, Jupiter, and Venus) which really works out pretty well when you consider the discovery charts...until you get to Vesta...

For those of you wondering why the Cererean discovery chart looks funny, there is no time documented for Ceres discovery (apparently, Piazzi doesn't take good note) so we're forced to use the sunrise chart for the day she was discovered as a rule.

Well at least its worth to try to find out more information in different aproaches. For me the chart lilly sended its quite good for me, and has its details. For my 'charts of discoveries' I usualy use Null house system, which doesn't need hours at all.

My opinion is that Ceres does have dignity in Taurus, but thats my opinion, others might not agree. We could also try to meditate how does Ceres act in every sign to find if its a certain dignity or detriment.

Right now Ceres is in Taurus.
 
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Kaiousei no Senshi

Premium Member
Well at least its worth to try to find out more information in different aproaches. For me the chart lilly sended its quite good for me, and has its details. For my 'charts of discoveries' I usualy use Null house system, which doesn't need hours at all.

Yes, definately. The truth is I thought about the same way you did, then I looked around at the Outer planet's discovery charts and thought: "Well...snap! Thought I was on to something!" -.-' I was very upset for several days when this idea of mine fell through the cracks.

Probably, my history knowledge isn't that good. But you might be aware that the discovery of more and more celestial objects and bieng named after mythological goddessess, brings further more feminine energies into our world.

This is probably very true, but my astrological philosophy only allows me to accept fourteen planets (maybe fifteen). However, I don't think the discovery and subsequent naming of these bodies is what's bringing the feminine energies into our world. Feminine energies have always been here, and in various tribes and traditions they've always had a profound and useful meaning. Perhaps these discoveries and namings are, though, reintroducing these concepts to our modern times in which they've been all but forgotten. That I will agree with you on.

My opinion is that Ceres does have dignity in Taurus, thats my opinion. We could also try to meditate how does Ceres act in every sign to find if its a certain dignity or detriment.

I think Ceres has dignity within all Signs of the Earthy Triplicity, so I'll agree with you. However, since the traditional seven planets have their marks all over the Zodiac through the Table of Essential Dignities, I don't feel it's very...appropriate to assign Ceres a Sign of rulership (I'm not picking on Ceres here, I also share this feeling for the Outer planets). However, I do believe that there are Signs wherein the planets operate the best and Signs wherein the planets operate the least effectively. For Ceres I feel she operates most efficiently in Earth and least in Air (I have Ceres in Gemini...). Of course one of my friends and I are going back and forth about whether it's Earth or Water Ceres operates best in.

Right now Ceres is in Taurus.

Yeah...and she took my money too... :(
 

Hex Astrology

Active member
Kaiousei no Senshi said:
This is probably very true, but my astrological philosophy only allows me to accept fourteen planets (maybe fifteen). However, I don't think the discovery and subsequent naming of these bodies is what's bringing the feminine energies into our world. Feminine energies have always been here, and in various tribes and traditions they've always had a profound and useful meaning. Perhaps these discoveries and namings are, though, reintroducing these concepts to our modern times in which they've been all but forgotten. That I will agree with you on.

I think the name doesn't come so freely. I mean Pluto for example was named by a little girl Venetia Phair. Who ever thought that a little girl could name a planet and expecialy influence the senior astrologers into taking it and voting it, and the name its fascninating by just pronouncing it ( Hades didn't fit if so well if it was by the greek name ). I believe, but probably others might not agree, that the name of a planet isn't a hazzard, but something driving by a superior and subtle force, by God, or whatever you like to it. Like in numerology, nothing is by hazzard, not even a name.
( Example of someone knowing numerology tried to modify his son destiny trough the name, she failed cause she made the calculations wrong. Was that a bad mistake or was something else ? The destiny of her son was great cause of that mistake. )
Astrology and any esoteric sciences should not eliminate what is mystery. Thats what it keeps it fascinating.

Kaiousei no Senshi said:
I think Ceres has dignity within all Signs of the Earthy Triplicity, so I'll agree with you. However, since the traditional seven planets have their marks all over the Zodiac through the Table of Essential Dignities, I don't feel it's very...appropriate to assign Ceres a Sign of rulership (I'm not picking on Ceres here, I also share this feeling for the Outer planets). However, I do believe that there are Signs wherein the planets operate the best and Signs wherein the planets operate the least effectively. For Ceres I feel she operates most efficiently in Earth and least in Air (I have Ceres in Gemini...). Of course one of my friends and I are going back and forth about whether it's Earth or Water Ceres operates best in.

What bothers me is that for 2 centuries nobody studied enough for Ceres's real dignity. Chiron is the same, but its still a new celestial object compared to Ceres. I heard 5 different types of dignities for Ceres, its to confusing. ( Domicile in Taurus, Exalted Taurus, Exalted Cancer, Domicile in Virgo, Triplicity in earth sign but no domicile ). Which is it. Should we study them particulary ?

Kaiousei no Senshi said:
Yeah...and she took my money too... :(

Sorry about your money. If you lost it during Ceres retrograde, its a high posibility of recovery when it turns direct motion again.
 
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Kaiousei no Senshi

Premium Member
I think the name doesn't come so freely.

Yes, what you're getting at here is the concept of synchronity. I do feel it's very important and a good base to start on, but I like Lilly's warning about following it too far. I do believe the names attributed to the Quartet were seemingly accidentally selected to be bases from which to start study. So, again, we are in agreement.

I mean Pluto for example was named by a little girl Venetia Phair. Who ever thought that a little girl could name a planet and expecialy influence the senior astrologers into taking it and voting it

Wasn't she the daughter of one of the astronomers working on the project or something? Am I thinking of something else?

What bothers me is that for 2 centuries nobody studied enough for Ceres's real dignity. Chiron is the same, but its still a new celestial object compared to Ceres.

Again, you and I are in agreement. The Quartet have - what I've dubbed - Chiron-envy. When Chiron was discovered everyone jumped on the bandwagon and now you'll find several books on Chiron and perhaps a few of his other asteroidal/Centaur buddies, but you'll find probably three books on the Quartet and they probably will all three disagree with one another. Not very helpful is it?

I heard 5 different types of dignities for Ceres, its to confusing. ( Domicile in Taurus, Exalted Taurus, Exalted Cancer, Domicile in Virgo, Triplicity in earth sign but no domicile ). Which is it. Should we study them particulary ?

The list will probably continue to grow as time goes on, unfortunately. Though, I'm not sure how seriously you should take my idea of Ceres being well founded in any Earth Sign. It works out very well philosophically in a sense that the symmetry founded by the Sacred Seven is not in any way interrupted or disturbed by the addition of the Quartet, and that's what I like about it.

I enjoy the idea of Ceres in Earth because of the cycle (all of you in the Southern hemisphere, I'm sorry...but...I guess astrology just didn't like the way your seasons were) it goes through.

Taurus takes over in the middle of spring and represents the excessive bounty of nature. Virgo represents the harvesting time, when the season is switching between Summer and Autumn, a balance and need to collect what's been distributed. Finally, Capricorn represents the dead and continual dying at the start of winter, the lacking of the bounty of nature and the need to take away to "rest".

Personally, I feel this cycle covers all the bases of Ceres: giving, cutting, taking.

Sorry about your money. If you lost it during Ceres retrograde, its a high posibility of recovery when it turns direct motion again.

Thanks! ^.^ I did get it back relatively quickly, but it still gave me trouble. Ceres proved to me that Trines are not always good things to have and gave me first hand experience of Ceres as a mini-malefic.
 
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starlink

Well-known member
Kai, very good indeed making this collection. Like that we have most important inputs all together, thanks a lot for the work. I will go through the whole lot tomorrow. My eyes are killing me, it is late here.

Smiling Steph commented on the gender factor and I was thinking exactly the same and still mentioned this in the very first Ceres thread.
I wrote there:

Personally I would say (also in the light of what was argued about above) that Ceres is not necessarily feminin and therefore nurturing. I would look at it as a nurturing quality in either man or woman. If some astrologers argue for Saturn as ruler of Ceres, traditionally, that could also be correct as Saturn was seen as the nurturer of the family (ruling the 4th house, not the 10th as we mostly do). So again, not looking at Saturn as masculine, but as a nurturer. I hope I am expressing myself correctly here.
I do agree, with the following:
However, I do believe that there are Signs wherein the planets operate the best and Signs wherein the planets operate the least effectively. For Ceres I feel she operates most efficiently in Earth and least in Air (I have Ceres in Gemini...). Of course one of my friends and I are going back and forth about whether it's Earth or Water Ceres operates best in.
I personally have Ceres in Aries, probably also not ideal. But it is in conjunction with Venus there and yes, Venus is also not happy in Aries. But I am extremely passionate (Aries) about nurturing, especially babies and young children but also all sorts of other people who are in some way unhappy. Like I also mentioned in the other thread, sometimes up to a point of compulsion. Now, would that be because Ceres is not really at ease in Aries or is it because it trines my Pluto, ruler of my Ascendant? Or am I like that because my Moon is in the 12th in Scorpio?
So it is still not really clear to me why Earth and maybe Water would be the signs where Ceres works best in.
Maybe in Aries it nurtures for ego reasons? Like: if I nurture you, you will nurture me back? (I personally am totally happy just to give and not expecting things in return, but who knows on a subconscious level maybe?) Would the signs show then in what way and for which reason we choose to nurture others?
More food for thought.
Starlink
 

Kaiousei no Senshi

Premium Member
Regarding gender, I don't think the gender of the planet makes much difference concerning interpretation, at least on the level of natal astrology. Honestly, the only reason I make an issue of gender is because I'm a crazy traditional-based astrologer who likes everything to make sense in the traditional scheme as well. :) Anyway, like I said, I really don't think there's anything in the interpretations of Ceres - or any planet - that touches on the gender of the planet and what it means, though there are times where you will see them being refered to as other people (Mars in a woman's chart being the kind of man she likes or whatever).

If the way I have it worked out in my mind is indeed an infalliable method then what it comes down to are four masculine planets, five feminine, and two shared, but the only way this will probably really come up is in the confines of electional and event astrology wherein the astrologer may wish to fortify the power of a Quartet member by aligning them in a Sign of the same gender.

Taking a step forward into new territory, I was thinking about the house the Ceres was discovered in. Lilly points out that Ceres was 'discovered' in the Fourth house, which is pretty interesting in itself that this planet was later to be identified with the goddess of grain and an agricultural goddess when the Fourth house has some very heavy agricultural ties in itself. Compounding the interest factor here, to look at it from Ceres's view point, she was discovered in her own Tenth house which is Traditionally linked with the mother and also the honors we obtain and what we desire to 'give out' to the world. Thinking about it, both houses make absolute sense, especially when you add into the equation of the idea of the Fourth house being the ancient temple of Saturn (which I find Ceres to be very much like Saturn in the area of malevolence) and the Tenth house being the ancient temple of Venus (who I consider Ceres to also be very similar to in that they both represent a different aspect of the term we simply identify as 'love'). It's for this reason that I've played around with the idea of Ceres finding her 'joy' in the Fourth house. As it served as the ancient temple of Saturn and absorbed much of his meanings, the Fourth house is rich in agricultural references, parentage, and also the ideas of Ceres as malefic, signifying from where everything comes and how everything ends.

Just a note, I don't cere-ously recommend anyone claim any Quartet member has joy in any house, I feel this is something that is also specific to just the Sacred Seven as it was their associations with these houses that morphed the houses into what they are today. However, you have to admit, that is rather fitting. :)

I personally have Ceres in Aries, probably also not ideal. But it is in conjunction with Venus there and yes, Venus is also not happy in Aries. But I am extremely passionate (Aries) about nurturing, especially babies and young children but also all sorts of other people who are in some way unhappy. Like I also mentioned in the other thread, sometimes up to a point of compulsion. Now, would that be because Ceres is not really at ease in Aries or is it because it trines my Pluto, ruler of my Ascendant? Or am I like that because my Moon is in the 12th in Scorpio?

No, I don't think Ceres is ideal in Fire either, I equate it with the 'Fall' of the other planets. She operates, but not in a way that she really perfers to as both fiery planets in her nativity are not exactly happy campers (one being peregrine and the other detrimented).

Ceres in Aries I would say is need to nurture specific qualities in people, most notably the ability to do things themselves. Helping and encouraging people to strive for what they want and to not just let things happen to them and give up. When I think of Ceres in Aries - honestly - I think of people who seem to be a little mean. Like, say if someone falls down, I wouldn't see Ceres in Aries helping them up, but waiting for them to get up on their own and saying things like "Come on, hurry up! You can do it!". Trying to get this person to see that they can be strong on their own, so to speak.

Conjoined with an Arian Venus sounds to me like what you're seeing as 'compulsion', but is intead an natural impulse. I've heard old tales of Arian Venus falling in and out of love at the drop of a hat, so I imagine this conjunction with Ceres being about in the same way, wanting to attend to people one second that you probably wouldn't have thought about helping a second ago. The impluse to begin but I'd say the Trine to Pluto makes it difficult to stop 'giving' even when your own Arian Ceres is saying "Okay, too much, gotta look after myself now."

I totally lost my train of thought... o_O Snap...

Well, anyway, I hope that was in someway useful to you, Starlink.

Nexus7 said:
How would most people here differentiate between what Ceres represents in the chart and what the natal Moon still represents?

I actually feel like I want to tackle this question, even though I was content to just let it be, I realized how important of an issue it was to settle.

Now, obviously Luna is indicative of our emotional responses to things and how we deal with them and also how we see our mothers and sort of what we gathered from that relationship with her and carried on through to adulthood. However, what if Ceres is a response to that, or perhaps the next stage. Where we've stopped being mothered and cared for, but instead have begun mothering others and dealing with images of self-worth (even though I sort of feel like we cross into Sol's territory here) and (something Starlink was touching on) showing how we reflect these images off into our environment by the people we care for, the way they 'perform', and the way in which we do this. Ceres and Luna are very closely connected, just check the nativity for Ceres and you'll see Luna as her Lady of Genture, but I'm definately looking for ways in which Ceres can be differentiated from Venus, Luna, and Saturn. Hopefully it won't be long before these become apparent.

I'll probably revist this question several times throughout this discussion, fine-tuning my response each time until I arrive at an answer I'm perfectly happy with. It's a fantastic question, Nexus, and I'm glad someone asked it. Definately in need of some thinking on this one...
 
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gaer

Well-known member
This is a great thread, and I hope the ideas keep coming.

It's wonderful to see so many people brainstorming, just throwing out ideas. It took me so long to read all the posts and think about it all that I don't have enough energy left to contribute, but when things swing around to Pallas, I'll have a lot of thoughts to throw in!

Gaer
 

Kaiousei no Senshi

Premium Member
Come on, Gaer!

Take the initiative and shove Pallas into the discussion instead of waiting for her to be mentioned! It's a thread about the Quartet, meaning all four of them! So just go for it! I'm sure we can juggle conversation regarding all four Quartet members (seemingly) at once. :D
 

starlink

Well-known member
Thanks for looking at my Aries Ceres Kai. The thing I can identify with is the "falling in love" at the drop of a hat, but not the falling out of love. Very hard for me to let go when I am in love, very hard. And also very hard to let go of someone I love a lot. I guess that that is the Scorpio Ascendant and the Pluto trine Venus. About the following:

Ceres in Aries I would say is need to nurture specific qualities in people, most notably the ability to do things themselves. Helping and encouraging people to strive for what they want and to not just let things happen to them and give up.
Yes, this is true. My parents always overprotected me and did not let me do anything on my own, not even make an appointment with the dentist, so I swore I would not do this to my children. Result is that they are totally self-sufficient and independent doers and thinkers. Also, if someone says:"oh,I cannot do that", I get very "upset" (not really the right word, but something similar) and do everything I can to convince them that they can do it.

When I think of Ceres in Aries - honestly - I think of people who seem to be a little mean. Like, say if someone falls down, I wouldn't see Ceres in Aries helping them up,
No Kai, not me. I would help them up, I mean, really, my Moon in 12 would jump in. But what I do for example with my little 2-year old grandchild, I try to make her fearless. We have a wooden horse, you know, the one that goes back and forth. When I put her on it, she was petrified. Now, would I leave her on it like that? Of course not. I put my arms completely around her, did NOT take her off the horse, but made her understand that there was nothing to be afraid of by going on rocking the thing and holding her. She then started to enjoy it. So yes, in a way maybe "mean" that I dont take her off immediately, but I leave her in the same situation but protected.
If she falls and I see it is not at all serious, but she screams for attention, I just do as if nothing is the matter, lift her up and talk about something else, diverting her attention to other things. I dont say: poor you, because then she will keep on doing this just to attract attention. She always immediately stops crying. When it is serious, I DO immediately help and soothe and what not.
I'm definately looking for ways in which Ceres can be differentiated from Venus, Luna, and Saturn. Hopefully it won't be long before these become apparent.
Not easy for sure but we are all thinking about it so maybe one of us will figure it out!
Star.
 
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starlink

Well-known member
Oh, another thing. Lets look if our "productive areas" in our horoscopes (the areas where WE feel we are most productive I mean, like in the career or at home or in a relationship) indeed have Ceres placed there or maybe strongly aspected to the rulers of these houses.
Ceres, apart from nurturing has also to do with productivity after all. I would say that the 6th house also comes in as a strong contender!

I for myself do find Ceres in my 5th quite suitable. I feel that I can be and am most productive when I can express myself freely, like in a hobby.

Just a suggestion.
 
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starlink

Well-known member
about young women and eating disorders in the chart.
Arian, the two daughters of my partner did have severe eating disorders, Bulimia and Anorexia for years, they still look like poles, so I will have a look at where their Ceres is situated and which aspects it makes to the rest of the chart. This I think could well provide a lot of insight in these problems.

This brings us also to food, diets, digestion. Again a 6th house issue.
Personally I would connect Ceres with the 6th house , maybe even as co-ruler ? Her Joy in the 4th (if you want) I am in agreement with.
Ceres is really a mixture of 4 and 6.
Does not bring us much further though....

I looked at one of them. Interesting. Ceres is in Scorpio, 11th house, square Saturn in Leo, 8th house and Saturn is ruler of her Ascendant! So here I would definitively say that she did not want to nurture herself.(the anorexic one).
Additionally, her 2nd house is traditionally also ruled by Saturn, selfworth issues. Her Saturn is also at 29°, critical.

The one with bulimia, even worse: Ceres in Aries, 1°orb conjunction with the Sun in her 2nd and both square her Saturn in Cancer and Moon conjunct Ascendant in Capricorn. Sun and Ceres also oppose Pluto in the 8th!
How incredible to see that both girls have a Moon in Capricorn conjuct the Asc. The bulimic one has an exact conjunction, both at 19° Capricorn. Again, low self esteem and inability to nurture (love) herself.

Looking back at what Kai said, I think it is correct to assume that the Moon shows the nurturing we got as an infant and still subconsciously want from others lateron, but that Ceres could mean that we now nurture others. The houses probably show whom or what we nurture and the signs and aspects to Ceres how we go about it.
This would work fine with me from a delineation point of view.
 
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