Lilith

[Frisiangal]

Hi Everybody,
I saw this thread when browsing and hope this first attempt to reply gets through.

I'm no authority on any Lilith but have been studying the Mean Black Moon Lilith's position in a chart and through transits for almost 7 years.
I don't know whether asteroid Lilith, as a physical body, would compare to the sexy,slutty, seductive woman described in pre- Hebrew and Sumerian myth, or whether True Black Moon Lilith is seen as such, but this in no way agrees with what has been observed regarding the position of Mean BML. It is point , not a body, between Earth and the moon's apogee which, translated, can be FELT inwardly as a point of emptiness, a void, a feeling of non-existence, (self) denial etc. of an active natural trait that is furthest from, or denied expression in daily life because it doesn't conform to 'how things are and should be'. In positive aspects it produces wonderful insights because it seems to be representative of activating the 6th sense, the gut instinct etc. that 'feels right' and a person projects, through its aspect to a planet, in spite of what others think,do, say and feel about them. But in harsh aspects, it's the part that is denied, that we don't like or care to admit to because it refers to something that is considered 'bad'or 'wrong' through the eyes of the company we keep and adhere to. It can then become the 'false image', the 'demon' of bad thoughts and feelings that plague us but that bear no resemblance to the truth.
MEAN BML is the nagging and gnawing you feel inside about something that refuses to go away until you deal with it. Most times it refers to the innocence of 'the inner child', that period prior to puberty, that you prefer NOT to be reminded of and include as part of your life.
Its association with manifested illness is becoming too general to be discarded and ignored, but what can you expect when people allow things to rot their inside? !!!!

If anyone would care to share their views on what they consider their MEAN BML means to them, I'd be very grateful as it will help my research.
Many thanks.

F.

[C1]

:| Frisiangal,
Thank you for this invitation! For me, MEAN BML
showed herself to be much as you
described, a powerful force in a very personal way.

Her glyph of a half-moon above the cross of spirit may have
the meaning of a gesture-- is it "come forward" :?:
---or maybe is it "proceed with courage" :!:
perhaps?

Then, before I learned more about this powerful non-planet-point-
in-space, I learned to differentiate her from two other, distinct
Lilith apparitions, osc. Lilith (h13 on Astrodienst, known as "True BLM")
and
the asteroid Lilith (1181).
Here's a link to that discussion on another astrology forum:
http://erosastrology.proboards26.com...0181003&page=2

BLM was shown to me on my chart more than
ten years ago, but I did not get to know her better then
and remained ignorant of her importance until now.

Natally, MEAN BLM is at 2 Aries 12, 3rd house;
she sextiles natal Jupiter at 1 Aqua 59, 2nd house
and another powerhouse in my chart, Uranus,
is within a few degrees orb of square.

Uranus is close to Asbolus at 1 Cancer 7 in the 7th house
(Uranus is midpoint of a powerful Sun / Venus square Moon / Pluto
in my 5th--8th houses....Uranus is 28 Gemini 7 and is in my 7th house.....
opposite my natal Vesta Rx conjuncting Pluto now and the GC......
much energy is being released through Uranus).

Here's my chart one week ago:

http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?n...2C8405%2C90377

I was invited to pay $75 to go to my friend's acupuncture school
where she is a 3rd year student and have an initial interview and
needling. I said "yes" because I had been dealing with healh shocks:

a friend was diagnosed with Lyme and
her 21 year old niece was also diagnosed with Lyme and
I know others who are suffering with Lyme....
my research into this syndrome/illness recently revealed
the possibility that there was a release of
the spirochete involved in Lyme from a secret army research lab...
my knee suddenly was not working....this is one of the possible indicators
of Lyme disease.....and like that....

so last week I walked into the acupuncture school and my
friend the student said "The administrator asked me for permission
to videotape the session." My friend said that since she had a cold
and did not feel up to it, she'd told them "no" and they really, really
wanted her to do it....So I said to her, "Good -- you are in touch with your
body and your 'gut feelings,' so do as you wish!"

There was suddenly a knock on the door to the examining room
and the director leaned in and
asked my friend to come speak with him for a minute....when she
returned she said, "Here's an offer for you: they would like you to
consent to be interviewed by the director and that will give me a break
and I'll be off the hook -- but they would like you to be sitting in front of
all of us students....and if you agree, there will be no fee!" So, I agreed.

The questions proceeded, and I was talking about my health as a child,
recurring sinus infections, and then when he asked
about my life as a child at home I started to cry and talked about the
day my father died.

The director of the school was very kind and very
professional, he asked me a few questions more and then
I went to a small room and received acupuncture
to balance the 5 energies,
and then I returned to the classroom, feeling
wonderfully re-adjusted
and balanced, and the students smiled at me and
everyone thanked
me and I came home.

This past week, since that event, I experienced decreasing health
and a serious cold/infection, and was very weak and concerned
because I cannot work with my clients who are immune-suppressed
if I am communicable, and finally as I lay in bed Thursday for the whole
day, drinking only one glass of hot tea with lemon and honey my friend
brought in to me....I really wanted to let go of recurring sinus infections.

Early Friday I had a dream: a Korean woman came to me
in the house I was temporrily staying in with her and her partner
and a child (they were not seen....they were great spirits!)
and the woman said to me "I, too, know 5 element acupuncture,
and your heart is weak!"

I awoke and dragged myself back to the acupuncture
school for the second scheduled session.

My knee was cured I told my friend the student! Could it be acupuncture,
or the rhuta grav. homeopathic remedy I'd taken that week, or the
hours of rest? Or combination?

And, I said that the cold was very discouraging and
difficult for me to tolerate and work through.....it was
debilitating, depressing, disgusting, and I was missing out on life....and
so then she needled me, her work was supervised by the director of the school, and she
moxa-ed me and my sinuses cleared enough for me to get home
and back to bed for 24 hours.....

now I see the kite :idea:

transiting Lilith
at 2 Virgo 50 is 150 degrees from natal Jupiter and
natal Lilith....
transiting MEAN BLM is not far from the star Regulus
conjunct my natal saturn at 29 Leo in my 8th
house (with approaching Saturn return by 2007!!)

Back to MEAN BLM: I remember this time of year is always making me cry.....

and soon the transiting lunar node *and* the sun *and* transiting Eros
will conjunct my natal Lilith....

....just in time to give me courage and open my heart more for
remaining balanced with all that is happening!
C1

[Lunar Pisces]

Sita: the male-only priesthood of the Catholic Church isn't a dogma. Dogmas are specifically teachings that Catholics must assent to to be in full communion with the Church, and pertain only to salvation and our relationship with Christ and his Church, not how the Church is structured. I am a (very liberal and female) Catholic theolgian and I was studying under other some prominent theologians (Catholic and Orthodox) when John Paul II made his statement on women in the priesthood. While it was assumed by many to be a dogmatic statement ont he pope's part, it was not and could not, for hte above reasons. Instead, it is simply "defintiive teaching" - a teaching that the Church believes is unchangeable because it conforms to Christ's example, but dissention from this teaching does not jeopardize one's membership in the Church or their salvation.

If your father violently attacked you over this, honestly, it probably was about something much deeper psychologically and far more troubling than his objection ot your religious dissention. Religion often makes for an easy facade and rationalization for deeper, darker problems that people try to hide. Hence why religion has been so badly abused throughout history.

As for Lilith:

I find Lilith very interesting. In my chart I have Pluto rising at 27 Virgo in the 1st, conj both asteriod Lilth (29 Virgo) and BM Lilith (1 Libra). Also in my 1st house in my Uranus singleton at 9 Libra.

I consider myself a very "Lilithian" woman. I look the part: I have a naturally fierce and independant appearence with intense Plutonian eyes and wild, impossible-to-tame dark, wavy hair that flows out like a mane when it's long. I can be imposing, intimidating and scare the holy **** out of men (and many women too). I manifest both the positive and negative Lilith traits: I'm very much in control of my sexuality, and very comfortable with it. Even though I have a very intense sexuality, I am not sexually active, something I have chosen so I can pursue other things in my life. I don't want children, yet men seem to want to get me pregnant (a very serious issue with past relationships).

Men are often easily alienated by me, and seem to think either I'm too bold and bitchy, or that I need to be "tamed" or "domesticed". I have no desire to be married or attached to a man, unless there is a deep, mutual respect of each other's individuality and independence. I'm not a conventional woman by any stretch, and I've defintely have a goddess complex going on on a deeper level - as I'm fond of saying, "I'm not girlfriend or wife material - I'm more goddess material." Seriously, on most days I sincerely wish I could just start iting people left and right (that would be Lilith's vengeful streak making an appearence).

I've also had several experiences in my life where I've been "exiled" or otherwise harshly reprimanded beyond reason or clearly without compassion or understanding, often because the "community" found me threatening. I frequently have to deal with people who try to cut me down because they resent my inherent power and intelligence. I have sometimes found myself socially isolated as the results of other's suspicion, mistrust or rejection of me. However, when I am not rejected, I often find "soul mates," people I can form deep, meaningful and edifying relationships. These tend ot be very powerful relationships that emphasize encouraging and supporting each other's independence, self-possesion and intellectual development.

[C1]

Sita,

I recall that posting of yours.
It's terrible what your father did to you.

Dominating other beings,
like what's done by some abusive Catholics and Christian right-wing
hypocrites and women-abusing Islamic fundamentalists....

these men (primarily) are sitting on both sides of the same coin.
Was it Nahwal al-Sadawi
the Egyptian doctor and writer and feminist who resisted and
was jailed who said:
"They have their money in the same Swiss bank accounts."

We are exploring true (non-fundamentalist) Spirit in our life!

Strong Sita, I'm appreciating all your posts, including today's
about the birth of 2 planets (thanking all who were involved)

and that one about the storm on Saturn just being our
Saturn returns....

(I had posted that photo as "guest" -- I just could not
get it together that day!)

Thanks, Sita!

Aquarian Mav,

I have recently been captivated by Lilith's seductive charms and would love to see this discussion continue...in my opinion, there is not nearly enough information out there about her role in one's natal chart

As soon as I selected Lilith from the additional objects list on Astrodienst and viewed all aspects to her, my chart seemed to explode in front of my eyes. Her placement in my eighth house of Libra feels particularly significant to me, perhaps because these two influences match my own personal image of her--an entrantress who possessed all of the darkness associated with the eigth house coupled with that infamous Libran charm.

Yes, I see that!
Uranus, Neptune, ASC, Moon, Jupiter Chiron...and a grand cross!

What does Lilith feel like for you anyway?

Can you tell yet?

C1

[Arian Maverick]

Yes, I see that!
Uranus, Neptune, ASC, Moon, Jupiter Chiron...and a grand cross!

What does Lilith feel like for you anyway?

Can you tell yet?

It is difficult for me to know with any measure of certainty how I have been affected by Lilith's energies, as I have not yet approached my seventeenth birthday and thus do not truly consider myself among the ranks of fully mature, adult women. However, I am well past the awkward stages of puberty and keenly aware of my body and my sexuality, and lately I believe that I have been experiencing Lilith in a very personal way.

For many years now, I have been very self-conscious and uncomfortable with my thin yet undeniably womanly figure. Throughout middle school, I attempted to hide myself inside baggy clothes, and even after I discovered the delights of fashion and started to wear more current and form-fitting styles, I simply could not shake off that feeling of shame and embarrassment whenever I viewed my reflection in my bedroom mirror. I desperately wished my curves would disappear and fiercely envied those whose bodies most closely matched society's projected image of the "ideal" body type.

Ah, but something changed! I am not exactly sure how or when the transformation took place, but I believe I began to have more respect for my body as I discovered what it was capable of doing--to carry and give birth to life. It is interesting that this board has been reactivated so to speak at this time, because for the last couple of nights I have fallen asleep whilst contemplating the innate power I believe all women possess as the mothers of all humanity...we are indomitable beings, naturally in tune with nature's rhythms and cycles, and capable of simultaneously fulfilling many roles--wife, mother, daughter, healer, warrior, protector, etc. Our love knows no limits, yet neither does our wrath; although many of us may try may to suppress our inner Lilith, she will forever be intertwined with our very being. The moon and Lilith--two sides of the same coin, seemingly a universe apart, yet in essence the same. What a wonderful gift!

Aquarian Maverick

[Kite]

Last night I was looking at my recently deceased Mother's chart and noticed her Lilith is at 6 degrees Cancer. I have a t-square formed by Mars conjunct Moon in Aries in 2 squaring Merc in Cap in 11 and opposing Jupiter in late Vir in 8. My Mother's Lilith completes the t-square into a Grand Cross with her Lilith sitting in my 5th house of self-expression.

I can tell you there is nothing like a mothering you get from Lilith in Cancer. I always remembered her being hysterical when I was young. I was told that I didn't start talking until 3 and also around that time I disappeared - they called the police and eventually found me cowering in the cabinet under the kitchen sink. I've just begun to realize that Neptune on my second house might have something to do with hiding out with the Mars/Moon conjunction intercepted in there. This evenutally developed into a fight or flight pattern but there are many ways to "hide out".

Other interesting aspects between the two of us include my Lilith conjuncting her Saturn, her Saturn conjuncting my Ascendant and my Saturn conjuncting her Moon and Mercury. You might say we had quite a confrontation of mirroring each other's characteristics and projection that could kill a horse.

I recently had a dream saying goodbye to her as she died suddenly this past summer. I held her very close and told her that if only we learned to forgive each other no matter what, then it was worth living this life. Then she peacefully left.

Kite

[Arian Maverick]

Kite- I'm so sorry about your loss :cry:

Aquarian Maverick

[Light]

Kite, you have my condolences. Sorry.

Quick technical interruption? Which lilith am I looking for? What does the squiggle look like? (I have real trouble with the glyphs - they all seem to change and look the same - Eg I cannot tell Jup and Sat apart - never mind the less well known ones! (Don't worry too much about that - I mirror write when under stress ops: , it's part of that! )) ops:

squigglless

hel

[C1]

Claro, Aqua Mav...well said.
Thanks for helping bring in the consciousness...


Kite,
Your sharing is deep and high and grounded.
Often there are no words for my gratitude to you.
Thank you, Kite, from my heart to yours....
I'm realizing
all *time* is contained in an expanding structure,
that's opening, turning into a new structure....consciously.
I'm amazed by your spirit and Self-
communication (if I may be so bold....your communication with
higher Self....) through the forum.



I am so amazed by the wisdom of you indigos...

C1

[Kite]

AM and Hel141 - thanks for your condolences.

C1 - thanks for your kind words also. Geez I don't feel very high or grounded sometimes. I think I pretty much chose a life path that would force me to find a spiritual path or else. Seemed pretty do or die from my perspective so it's nice that I seem to be able to express myself in this area. I'm grateful for that and so far am enjoying my Chiron return 8) .

Kite

[C1]

Kite,
Yeah,
I've felt like that, too, most
of my life....

but, hey, happy new moon!
(BTW, thanks, Lapis, once again, for showing up
with the goods....today it was your post about
this refreshing new moon...I really needed that!)

Waves of communicators
*are* harmonizing here, and that's good...
whether or not any one of us ever felt
particularly
"harmonic" or "grounded" in our
"previous" lives -- (i.e. prior to this moment!)

Hmm...I wish to take back the indigo label, too....I'm
in agreement with Sita (on another thread):

FReeeeeeeeeee

So, who will be the next planet/asteroid/
point in space to take center stage and "act" through
the astrologers here within
our forum during this Pluto/GC moment
I wonder :|

C1
8)

[Missa]

I have Lilith in Taurus conjunct my Midheaven and North node but I'm not sure what it means. :? It looks like I also have Pholus conjunct my North node (I guess it depends of the orb you use), but I haven't been able to find any interpretation for this. Help? I'm curious because North node is supposed to be the course we have to take in this life, our karma, etc. How would Lilith (and Pholus?) affect on it?

[Frisiangal]

Whoops...forgot one last thing for Hel. The glyph for Black Moon Lilith.

It depends upon which astro. programme you have. Mine gives a final quarter black moon. I think it's Astro. Com that puts the waxing crescent moon above the cross of matter. Don't know what others use.
But THE glyph (and the one I use when doing hand-drawn charts) is the black waning crescent Moon sitting on the cross of matter with her 'point' in free air for all to see !!! Great symbolism, especially when you see it as the inverted glyph of Saturn, cross of matter above joined obedient moon.

Glyph for Jupiter is like an old fashioned elegantly written number four; the moon above, yet linked to the cross of matter.

Symbolically, I think the glyphs with O, ) and + = spirit, soul, and matter (body) say more than the old-fashioned ones, especially for Uranus and Pluto. (It's so long ago, I can't even remember at this moment what the old glyphs for Saturn and Pluto were )

F.

[Frisiangal]

I have no idea what has happened but the L-O-N-G reply I posted with Lilith comments has disappeared as soon as I added the glyphs comment :cry:
Can anyone see it?

F

[C1]

Frisi,
Tech comment: moving between open windows while
drafting a reply may cause reply to disappear....hope
your long message can be retrieved (....!!!gosh, Lilith!....could ya be good, here!?) :x
:P

Please do not be too frustrated, Frisi===you're studying
Lilith, who has some information to share IMHO through u.

C1

[Frisiangal]

Thanks C1.
I think it's gone forever.
Too much in Pisces to-day effecting my BML-CH-Ascendant in Virgo square Uranus, and tr. Mercury squares natal Saturn.
I'll try a re-post later should anyone be interested......or maybe I'd better wait for Mercury's forthcoming retrograde to be over first. With Gemini on the MC as well, it has a way of catching me out when I'm not paying attention

F.

[C1]

Frisiangal,
....and transiting True BML is cj transiting MEAN BML

at 4 Virgo, yes....and both are
conjunct my natal
asteroid Lilith 1181 at that Virgo point :!:

and all are squaring transiting Pholus,

and so if you'd rather wait 'til after Mercury
directs....that's an option, for sure!

Lilith's frisky in Virgo, I'd say!

8)

C1

[Light]

Frisangel

Thank you. I found it! (I also finally managed to access the links! Retrograde Mer and I can access things and learn something! Must be natal Retro Mer! ops:

True BML is at 26 Libra in my 12th house. Mean BML is at 19 Libra in the 12th.

True BML is squaring my nodal axis quite nicely! (SN Cap 3 NN Can 9).

What this feels like is way beyond my capabilities at the moment (still very much a beginner), but thank you for the infomation, it will keep me busy!!

take care

hel

[Frisiangal]

Originally Posted by hel141

Frisangel

True BML is at 26 Libra in my 12th house. Mean BML is at 19 Libra in the 12th.

True BML is squaring my nodal axis quite nicely! (SN Cap 3 NN Can 9).

What this feels like is way beyond my capabilities at the moment
hel.........

Are there issues around not feeling accepted and treated as an equal?
Libra is also associated with the beauty of the skin. I've seen a number of charts where skin colouring played a defining role in one's physical attraction/repulsion towards one's self or another.

Should BML makes a harsh aspect to Venus, keep a check on the kidneys. OTOH, a dear friend with BML in Libra donated a kidney to her brother and feels no worse for it.

I haven't yet reached studying BML with the nodes and am just hypothesising here, but its position in the 12th, which has been acknowledged by some to be associated with far ancestral roots, plus the square to NN in Cancer in the 9th, could suggest either the attraction to, or repulsion of a cultural heritage, especially in mystical rites .

F.

[Kite]

Bumping up.

[Light]

Kite

Are you reading my mind? and telling me what to do?

Or my concious?...

I'm on to it



Fris

Sorry for the delay with this, I've been trying to work it out. Not getting far, mind you... ops:

Are there issues around not feeling accepted and treated as an equal?

Not fitting in full stop. I thought that was my Me/Sa conj in 3rd, though. I'm so typical of that combination. But, with BML on the 11/12 cusp (depends on which system, but pretty close to 12 in all of them (12 equal)), it fits.

I've seen a number of charts where skin colouring played a defining role in one's physical attraction/repulsion towards one's self or another.

ummm. Not sure about this. I just don't like the look of my face. My skin was always pretty good, not so good now - bad diet and too much smoking. Although people joke about me wearing my ethnic jeans in the summer!! My sister knows there's some secret in the family but won't say, I certainly can't get it out of anyone. ops:

I haven't yet reached studying BML with the nodes and am just hypothesising here, but its position in the 12th, which has been acknowledged by some to be associated with far ancestral roots, plus the square to NN in Cancer in the 9th, could suggest either the attraction to, or repulsion of a cultural heritage, especially in mystical rites .

Cultural heritage - no. Mystical rites - yes. I have always been drawn to them, but have stopped myself from looking into it. A very strong fear. Yet tinged with excitement. I've just been studying (or trying to) the nodes - am I right in that fear/excitement is the nn operating?


Going back to noddy basics - with BML the childkiller in the house of the womb (12), squaring the mothering sign of cancer, won't she be preventing me mothering? With zero (natural) maternal instinct, to be a mother is a challenge - with a vertical learning curve. And only having the one child, (being terrified of pregnacy) BML has been operating? (I can tell Merc's gone straight again :? :evil: )

Anyway, my nodes are calling me back (or rather the piece is)

Thanks for your time

take care

hel

[StelliumGoat]

I was just wondering if someone can interpret my lillith. I have lillith, Juno, and my south node in Virgo in the 8th house, my moon in Libra is also in the 8th house, what does it all mean?

P.S. (How do you spell lillith, one or two L's inbetween the I's?)

[Frisiangal]

Originally Posted by StelliumGoat

I was just wondering if someone can interpret my lillith. I have lillith, Juno, and my south node in Virgo in the 8th house, my moon in Libra is also in the 8th house, what does it all mean?

P.S. (How do you spell lillith, one or two L's inbetween the I's?)

L-I-L-I-T-H.

I have observed that it isn't just Lilith's position that is important but the aspects made to a planet, through which it can make its presence felt in the physical world.

In all cases I have of MEAN BML (there is also TRUE Lilith and Asteroid Lilith) in harsh aspect in Virgo, they have related to a 'false image' one has of one's self as a result of something they consider, but not necessarily is, physically imperfect about them. This 'false image' is often the result of other people's ideas about them.
E.g. a client with 8th house BML in Virgo quincunx natal Mercury was 'interefered with' regularly as a child by a family friend, which she kept quiet about, although she knew it was wrong. When she finally spoke up about it, SHE was seen as a liar and 'bad' whilst the friend was defended!! She carried this idea of 'bad girl' about herself for over 35 years!
I also have BML in Virgo and went around with a false image of myself for years as a result of being referred to as 'Miss Prim and Proper', which was regarded as 'ab'normal, yet is perfectly naturalfor Virgo .
My daughter has BML in Taurus in the 8th house. She is physically 'well-endowed' but hated the way men used to look at her chest instead of her eyes. It made her 'feel like a whore'.

If your pseudonym refers to a planetary pattern and BML aspects that pattern, there is probably a natural and deep inner wisdom within you that attracts you to the use of ancient rites, symbols and methods as a way to express your special gift that lay(s) dormant. But it may not be considered 'normal' by those through whom you long to feel accepted.

Just a few ideas to toy with.

F.

[StelliumGoat]

Thanks so much for responding about my lilith. I would've replied sooner but haven't been in a very "talkie" mood lately. You are right on the mark with some of your ideas about lilith being in virgo. I have gone through some VERY similar experiences you speak of, like the family friend, the whole self image thing, and even when you speak of your daughter, I feel I can totally relate.

[unukalhai]

Hello all,

I've had a sort of strange run-in with Lilith and have been researching her yesterday and today, and remembered this thread... I found an interesting paper in PDF format on Lilith and figured I would share...

http://www.horusset.com/RIKB/Lillith.pdf

A most interesting thread. Thanks all for the wide range of input, I will probably post here in the future when I wrap my retrograde mind (Mercury) around her a bit more!