predicting death

[star student]

i bought a book several years ago called the astrology of death. author: richard houck. is anyone familiar with this book? he had developed a special ephemeris, but it wasn't included with the book.

i'm gonna carve out time to read this book cover to cover now. there has already been so much death in my personal circle. i've skimmed the book many times, but never just right right to it. i feel like i'm reading an incomplete book without the ephemeris.

a few years ago, i found a website for him, and i was just too late to get a copy of this ephemeris.

does anyone have any thoughts on astrology and predicting death? the author himself got cancer and died. i don't recall him mentioning his own coming demise in the book, but there were new updated printings since my copy in 1994.

[rahu]

i think a traditional adversion agianst predicting death is because if you put out the thought form of death,it is possible that those thoughts could invoke death.then you have the karma of death on you.also putting the thought of death in someones mind can bring death to them when that weren't concerned before.again ,karma is on your hands.i have no problem with people predicting death but usually pass on these predictions myself
rahu

[Nexus7]

That is in fact what someone I once read for did want me to tell him when his father would die, so that he could inherit the house. Well, I did not oblige him. I remember coming across injunctions very early on that predicting death was highly unethical, for the reasons given above.

I understand that in Roman times, most astrologers were a whole lot more forthcoming in death predicting, perhaps because it was more common for people in hight places to 'invite' citizens to commit suicide for a number of reasons, presumably then allowing the candidate for death time to get their affairs in order.

At one time, astrologers were also much more forthcoming in predicting the deaths of emperors or kings - and in fact, were often very precise in ther predictions as to cause of death. Liz Greene has a case study in her book The Astrology of Fate where a French king got he prediction, that he would die at a certain tournament via an injury to the eye. And theses astrologers did not even have the correct moon sign!

So what on earth was going on?

Greene suggests that since the times of this hapless king, there are many ways that, for example, a transit square from Saturn to Sun could manifest, only a small part of which could encompass actual physical death. She suggests that this maybe because the general consciousness of humanity has increased, therefore there are more varied ways in which a fate may be played out.

I wonder, however, if she was not being a little over-optimistic here. I do wonder if being a head of state might not make some individuals a whole lot more 'fated' insofar that they may be carrying the hopes and fears of a whole nation, with schedules planned by many powerful individuals behind scenes in advance. Maybe, a figurehead in that respect may have as little 'free will' as Liz Greene's unfortunate French monarch. I do wonder what would have happened, for example, if John Kennedy had postponed his visit to his place of assassination because his astrologer had warned him not to go?


Some astrologers, I hve heard, predicted their own deaths quite cheerfully. Charles Carter, apparently, did so for himself and accurately too. He saw transits or progressions from either Jupiter or Neptune as being significant, but read this as indicating more a 'happy release' for the individual concerned. He suggests that it was worth looking at the charts of the loved one for other clues, as there the death would be percieved as a painful blow, parting or loss. He still warned, however, that this whole area is still one where angels might rightly fear to tread.

[Sag Moon]

I caution anyone when seeing a marker in their chart of something that might occur,but never say it will mean death becasue it is not right IMO.

have seen death in the chart for my family.It is not good to know sometimes.

[rahu]

the roman historian Suetonius wrote about astrolgical predictions of the death of the emperor Domitian's death.
his death had long been foretold by an assassin with a knife.
Domitian was most disturbed by a prediction by the astrologer,Ascletario.after Ascletario told Domitian about his death,the emperor asked the astrologer about his own death.Ascletario replied he would soon be torn apart by wild dogs.the emperor immediately called his quards and had the astroger killed on the spot and gave orders that the funeral rites be conducted with greatest care as proof that astrology was fake.
but during the funeral a sudden gale scattered the pyre and wild dogs mangled the half burnt corpse.needless to say Domitian was killed on the appointed day.
rahu

[deanna]

Star Student--

Also read the "Pluto Transits" thread. This has the information your looking for .
Thank-you

-De

[Nexus7]

I heard that Tiberius summoned his astrologer Thrasyllus, to tell him he was to be relieved of his positon for being too woolly and ambiguous an asrologer.

Being fired at that time also meant summary decapitation on the spot.

Thrasyllus was a wily old fox, however, or he may even have been telling Tiberius the truth, when he told the emperor that as his astrological time twin. So if he were to die, his own death would surely and rapidly follow, and he got left off the hook.

The other moral of this tale, come to think of it, was that the Romans als knew about the strange coincidences that take place in the life of time twins.....

[smilingsteph]

Totally against it myself...
Live to live, dont live to die....which is what would happen if you knew about it..
Nostradamus predicted his death, the night before he died, stating he would not be awake in the morning after saying goodnight to his friend.
He predicted when his coffin would be re-opened, in year 1700. He wore an amulet with the year written on it predicting when his coffin would be opened. Imagine the shock!
I hate it even when MD's give out "oh you have six months" because it places a limit on a persons psyche and also I think does impact them in a karmic way. I have seen so many people that outlive that MD prediction and they end up using whatever time they have "extra" to give up.

[Liquid Green]

I would love to know personally..........not sure why, guess it may have something to do with both my parents dying when i was really young and being a single mum.....doubt i would ever find anyone to tell me though.
(and i often change my mind on wanting to know these facts too)

[astro.teacher]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with predicting death; the chart illustrates both the life of the individual as well as his death. To read only the life is doing a huge disservice to the querent. The problem is not necessarily with predicting death, its those who are doing the predicting. When you have bad Astrologers (or ones who believe themselves adept but really arent) predicting deaths right and left, you have a serious problem and there are no shortage of bad incompetent Astrologers in the past and the present. Any Astrologer who predicts death with transits alone, should not be doing Astrology publicly, period. To believe that Transits are the only method to accurately predict a date/time of an event (or believe that all events come from transits) is a huge modern mistake.

When one knows what events are going to take place, one can actually avoid them from happening. Fate is for the ignorant and Free will is for the wise. You can avoid MANY accidents to your body, estate and life by knowing Astrology and applying it correctly, yes, that means you can even avoid accidental deaths, that is if you know how to accurately follow Astrology. If you know that you are going to die on the 25th of March 2010 at 5:00pm (and this time is supported by other major charts that indicate death) from falling from a horse, you CERTAINLY would avoid getting on a horse during that time wouldnt you? Therefore by predicting your death, you have inevitably AVOIDED your death. If you want to know whether you are a competant Astrologer enough to predict death? First predict the time and date of your marriage, your childrens births, and many other accidents. If you find that these have all come out accurately (and I mean including TIME as well, specific time as 5pm) then you are adept enough in the field of Astrology to predict deaths. Any short of being able to predict these things will prove quite detrimental when predicting death.

[Nexus7]

'If you know that you are going to die on the 25th of March 2010 at 5:00pm (and this time is supported by other major charts that indicate death) from falling from a horse, you CERTAINLY would avoid getting on a horse during that time wouldnt you?'

Well, would they? Liz Greene's French King still went on his fatal tournament, though he must have been aware of the predictions made by (yes, him again) Nostradamus and Gauricus.

Maybe again, it is more difficult, as I suggested before, for a figurehead to change his or her plans because of what the astrologers say, or maybe the King felt he had something to prove, which is more or less what Greene suggested, from his Sun-Venus in Aries square Saturn on the midheaven (his Moon was in Aries too). Not the sort of guy who would have listened, either then or now.

Again, how many figureheads nowadays would be that forthcoming about admitting that they actually listen to astrologers?

As for general predictions, I would be less than willing to predict even an accident-prone period for somone, at least for someone whose chart suggested an anxious nature anyway, because a fairly supersitious fear of being 'fated' in a 'doomed, doomed, I say' way can be so deep-rooted. Perhaps it depends on how you say it.

I don't know about the kind of astrology most people practise here either. There is a rather woolly side to a lotof 'humanistic' astrology because the focus is in fact not to predict but to raise the old consciousness. But maybe that is a little too much about having a cat with no claws - maybe an unfortunate metaphor but I can't think of any others right now. What I mean by that, is you do only have to lok at the stories about astrological time twins, or of identical twins separated and adopted at birth, to realise that maybe we are more 'fated' than we would like to think.

Liz Greene, incidentally, does not just look at the life and death of her French King. She looks at the impact of a father's death on a whole family, all the way down to grandchildren, too. I believe she looks at progressions as well as transits.

And even then - some midpoint transits do seem to be pretty effective at death predicting, even if wise after the event. Christa Mc Auliffe, who was killed in that fateful Challenger expedition, had Saturn transitting her Sun/Moon midpoint, which Harvey and Harding lugubriously remind us, can be a harbinger of the Grim Reaper in some cases. I beleive the other astrnuats bar one also had some Mercury/Saturn midpoint pictures in common.

Whether or not Mc Auliffe would have listened to the astrologers on the eve of her trip into space is a moot point too. Perhaps the pressure of being a heroine for a whole naion would have meant that she could have found it impossible to telll her public 'sorry, my astrologer says I could get killed.'

[Andonis]

I think it is possible to see at least danger of premature death by glancing at a chart in most cases. I do it routinely.
I also think that only if people request to know they should be told.
It is not to be offered to people unless they wish to know. Furthermore, some charts are easier than others and clearer as to the dates of danger. It is like a set of obstacles (death dates) which one has to go through. Chances are that one of those (labelled as death ones) we yield and depart. Certainly with higher probability as time goes by and one approaches century. And one thing is certain we WILL yield. So NOBODY CAN AVOID THE DATE.
There is nothing in a chart that says this is death. There are precise times where they are marked as deadly but there are more than one. Some charts have 3 or more different dates which can cause death.
The difficulty is to know which ONE is the one....The inner strength of people is what makes overcome those obstacles if possible and this must be strong. If your will is strong you may overcome the first time but will you be strong second or third time? Eventually you cannot avoid it....but as I said it is harder to know this date is THE date rather than those 2 or 3 dates are the danger dates. If by knowing those times makes people weaker then maybe it is not a good idea to know.

I wonder if there is anyone who is at that age where they survived one of those 'predicted death dates' and he/she knew it was coming. That experience I have not had but I know when my weak days are going to be....

[Liquid Green]

for those here that think that predicting death is like dooming someone ....making it more likely to occur, then i would ask, what about the rest of astrology? saying that a death prediction is unethical, is casting a moral question over the whole of astrology......is it not? If a death prediction, is unethical, what about birth, marriage...? wouldnt a marriage be more unethical to predict considering that it needs another person aswell? (unless they both had there charts done)
I reckon it is unethical to not answer questions that can be answered. Most people want to know what the stars say......not what the astrologer thinks he/she should say.......
touchy subject i know.........but its my thoughts for now

[Derestanne]

Death predictions are more or less as much an ethical disaster for Astrologers as is having an affair with a Client.

It is all less to do with what we personally believe is appropriate professional conduct as it is what the present day social and legal system finds immoral, illegal or anti-social conduct and the consequences that are imposed.

I find that many of my Uranian Colleagues have humanistic, liberal, future-oriented and maybe even anarchistic viewpoints, but like it or not we are very much subject to the laws and morals of the present day, even though these are often tired old relics of victorian and puritan times.

I have on a number of occasions found my practice of Astrology hamstrung by the expectations (and limitations) of Clients, conditioned social attitudes and laws that do the Spanish Inquisition Proud! So when in Rome, I do as the Romans and I don't predict death, lest I be thrown to the Lions! So for myself - and the record - I encourage not breaking the laws but modernizing them.

[Andonis]

The issue of predicting death is easy because it is CERTAIN. Being a mother or a father is not certain. But the most certain thing that will happen to you is death. The only difficult part required for predicting it is TIMING.
Astrology can predict this we know it.
The ethics of offering it to the client is to me a matter of...Has he asked for it in full knowledge of what it means, will the client benefit from the knowledge and is he in the right state of mind for it?
One should not just tell someone unless he needs to know and he is up to it.

[Nexus7]

'for those here that think that predicting death is like dooming someone ....making it more likely to occur, then i would ask, what about the rest of astrology'

I mentioned accident predicting and suppose in that case, it depends on the client and how fond of risk-taking they are, or how nervous.

I should think that the whole question of death is a special case because of all the fears and taboos surrounding it and because this is such a secular culture. It maybe that death was not always such a big deal, at other times, or indeed now, in other cultures. Unless the attitude towards death and dying changes, then maybe astrologers had better say away until that changes.

[Liquid Green]

Derestanne,
so is it against the law? wow! I never thought of that.....perhaps a signed note, saying that the client wont sue the astrologer is what is needed.........

strange times we live in.

[astro.teacher]

I dont believe death necessarily is the issue here. I believe its the length of life that is the issue. This is a consistant repeated pattern throughout Astrology. I dont believe it has very much to do with the taboo of the subject as much as it has to do with the fact that people dont want to know theyll die before they are 100. This fact is not only for death either. People dont want to know they will be poor, barren, have ****** love lives (or none at all), get divorced, have no nice house, no nice car, be a worker their entire life, have bad health, have enemies, get in fights & the list goes on. I am quite sure if you predicted that someone would die when they are 95 years old in their beds, they would be completely content with that result and be quite happy about it. Death really isnt the issue. I am sure that if you predicted someone would lost their entire estate, and be sent to the streets as a beggar they would be just as unhappy as if you told them they would die at 40. It seems that people just dont want to hear anything negative will happen in their lives, its as simple as that. Until we get out of this mindset that nothing negative will happen in our lives, I see death being the scapegoat for a much larger issue in Astrology and prediction.

[Liquid Green]

liked your post Aaron

[Derestanne]

Originally Posted by Liquid Green

Derestanne,
so is it against the law? wow! I never thought of that.....perhaps a signed note, saying that the client wont sue the astrologer is what is needed........strange times we live in.

To my knowledge, it is not against the law anywhere in the United States to make a prediction of death, unless perhaps someone believed it was made in the context of a death threat. The real problem here in America is that the society has become lawsuit happy! You legal experts out there, please correct me if I'm wrong!

There are ongoing discussions among Astrologers about the use of legal contracts, in which Clients promise to "hold harmless" the Astrologer in the event that the Consultation is less than satisfactory. But many Courts and Judges consider such contracts worthless, arguing that existing consumer protection laws favor the Client in these situations. There are a number of States in the USA that do not even recognize Astrology as a legitimate profession, so contracts with clients may again be legally null and void since Astrology "does not exist" in the eyes of the law!

Back to my original point. Astro.teacher really put the broad brush strokes to the entire matter. How many Clients have literally said to me over the years, "just tell me what you see that's good; I don't want to hear any bad stuff!"? I've lost count how many times I've heard that one!

Bravo Astro.teacher! Bing right on the mark!!!

And then Nexus7 said "Unless the attitude towards death and dying changes, then maybe astrologers had better say away until that changes".

Bing Again Nexus7! I couldn't agree with you more and that was also my point.

Although I believe the human race has come along since the Dark Ages, there are still days and Clients that make me feel like Nostradamus, when I'd better answer questions in clever figurative Quatrains, do my Readings by candlelight in the dark of night in a locked cellar and watch my backside!

[star student]

wow. so many veiwpoints on this. i want so badly to read it all through tonight, but i can't.

i did want to clarify why i asked this question. my father died in an auto accident when i was 2. my maternal granfather died just months before in an accident at home. i have grown up wondering and pondering why. in my teens, i started to wonder how my capricorn parts play into this. i always understood that cappy's typically have problems with the father. just a generalization, i'm sure. i felt the double whammy. losing them at practically the same time when i too young to know either one.

when i saw that book, i took an interest in reading it immediately because of the above reasons. but i never got right down to reading it. i knew i would want to at some point though.

i like to study and understand astrology, so i can understand me and those i care about. i never thought of myself ever reading to strangers. adn if i ever did feel that competent, i probably wouldn't offer any of this either. unless i was asked directly. if i dont' think i understand it completely, i wouldn't pretend to. i can def see how dangerous this could be. i mean, it could push a person to end their own life on their own time, or go commit terrible acts because they have been told when their life will be over. (a worse case senario, of course). we all like to be in control. it's part of being a human.

astrology aside, i think there's a part in human nature that doesn't really always want to know the truth, well, not at least without a sugar coated version to make the blow of predicted bad times easier. and then still get hit with hard times no matter how much we try to deny and buy into what we WANT and WANT to believe.

all i know for sure is that i want to keep my mind open to all the things that astrology can teach.

since buying that book, i have lost my mom and my husband. both for medical reasons. i just want to have a look into it, because it surely looks like i have several personal relationship charts that i can use for study now.

i've often wondered if i really would want to know when and how i might die. when we found out about my husbands cancer, we talked about it at length. he was scared and so was i. but he would have never admited it. he used to tease me about my interest in astrology.

hope this doesn't look all jumbled, but i wanted to comment so badly. thanks to everyone who is throwing in their thoughts. i appreciate it.

and deanna, thanks for the link to the pluto progressions. i'll be looking into that one as soon as i get back.

[flea]

Any and every thought we have affects our future, or maybe that should be creates it. NO future is absolutlely definable, it is fluid. I find astrology works best when you understand them as certain types of energies available to you or another to be utilised as seen fit from the individual perspective.

After the fact you can see how the story plays out in the stars, but there are are infinite number of ways that could have played out.

Our conscious awareness and perception and then our ability to make a choice interacts with the stars in a myriad of ways.

Love Light Flea

[lillyjgc]

Heres what William Lilly has to say on the matter:
If the Querent is likely to live long yea or not.

Many men and women have not the time of their Nativities, or know how to procure them, either their Parents being dead, or no rememberance being left thereof; and yet for divers weighty considerations they are desirous to know by a question of Astrology, whether they shall live long or not?, whether any sicknesse is neer them? , what part of their Life is like to be most happy? together with many other such Queries people doe demand incident to this house.

Signs of Health or Long Life.

[SIGNES OF HEALTH.]
In the Question you must consider if the Sign ascending, the Lord thereof, and the Moon be free from misfortune, viz. if the Lord of the Ascendant be free from Combustion of the Sun, from the

[FONT='Times New Roman','serif']
[/FONT]
Square, Opposition or Conjunction of the Lord of the 8th, 12th, 6th or 4th House, if he be Direct, in Essentiall Dignity, Swift in Motion, or Angular, especially in the 1st house, (for in this question he is best placed therein) or 10th, or else in the 11th, or 9th House, and in a good aspect with Jupiter or Venus, or the Sun, or in the Termes of Jupiter and Venus, it’s an argument of Health and long life to the Querent, for the Lord of the Ascendant, or Ascendant it selfe unfortunate or Moon in bad houses afflicted, show mischiefe at hand; the aforesaid Significators tree, argue the contrary: for as youconsider the Lord of the Ascendant, so the Ascendant is to be considered, and what aspect is cast unto it, viz. good or evil, and by what Planet or Planets, and of what house or houses they are Lords of.

[SIGNES CONTRARY, VIZ. OF SICKNESSE, DEATH, &C. MISFORTUNE.]
It’s generally received, that if the Lord of the Ascendant be under the Sunbeams, or going to Combustion, which is worse then when he is departing, or the Moon cadent and unfortunated by any of those Planets who have dominion in the 8th or 6th, and either the South Node, Saturn or Mars in the Ascendant or 7th House, peregrine or in detriments, or retrograde, or if there be in the degree ascending, or in that degree of the Signe wherein the Lord of the Ascendant is, or with the Moon, or with that Planet who afflicts any of those; I say, any Fixed Starre of violent influence or nature of the Planet afflicting, or nature of the Lord of the 8th or 6th House, then you may judge the Querent is not long lived, but neer some danger, or shall undergoe some misfortune in one kind or other, according to the quality of the Significator and Signification of that or those houses they are Lords of.



The Time When Any of These ACCIDENTS Shall Happen.

You must see if the Lord of the Ascendant be going to Combustion, or to Opposition or Conjunction of the Lord of the 8th or 4th, how many degrees he is distant from the Sun, or Lord of the 8th or 4th, and in what Signe either of them are in; if the space betwixt them be eight degrees, and in a common Signe, it denotes so many moneths; if in a fixed signe, so many yeers; if in a moveable, so many weeks: this is onely for example, and in

generall; for the measure of time must be limited according to the other Significators concurring in judgment herein..

Secondly, having considered the Lord of the Ascendant, see how many degrees the Moon is also distant from any Infortune, or from the Lords of the 6th or 8th, and in what Signe or Signes, their Nature, Quality and House wherein they are posited..

Thirdly, consider if there be an Infortune in the Ascendant, how many degrees the Cusp of the house wants of that degree the unfortunate Planet is in, or if the unfortunating Planet be in the 7th, how many degrees the Ascendant wants of his true Opposition, and compute the time of Death, Sicknesses or Misfortune according to the dimension of degrees in Signes moveable, common, or fixed..

If you find the Lord of the Ascendant afflicted most of all by the Lord of the 6th, and in the 6th, or if the Lord of the Ascendant comes to Combustion in the 6th, you may judge the Querent will have very many and tedious sicknesses, which will scarce leave him till his death; and the more certain your judgment will be, if the Lord of the Ascendant, and the Lord of the 8th and the Moon be all placed in the 6th.

If you find the Lord of the Ascendant, the Signe ascending, or Moon most principally impedited or unfortunated by the Lord of the 8th, or that Planet who afflicts your Significators out of the 8th, then you may judge that the sicknesse with which he is now afflicted, or is shortly to be troubled withall, will end him, and that his death is approaching or that death is threatened..

But if you can find that the Lord of the Ascendant, or Signe of the Ascendant, or the Moon are chiefly afficted by the Lords of some other houses, you shall judge his misfortune from the nature of the house or houses whereof the Planet or Planets afflicting are Lords; and the first original thereof, or discovery, shall be signified from something, Man or Woman, &c. belonging to that house wherein you find the Planet afflicting posited, and thereby you shall judge a misfortune and not death: The Fixed Starres I mentioned, being of the nature of Mars, show sudden distempers of

[FONT='Times New Roman','serif']
[/FONT]
body, or Feavers, Murders, Quarrels &c. of the nature of Saturn, quartan Agues, Poverty, casuall hurts by fals &c..., of the nature of Mercury, they declare Consumptions,Madness, cozenage by false Evidence or Writings: of the nature of the Moon, Tumults, Commotions, Wind-chollick, danger by Water, &c, of the nature of the Sun, envy of Magistrates, hurt in the Eyes, &c. of the nature of Jupiter, oppression by domineering Priests, or by some Gentleman: of the nature of Venus, then prejudice by some Woman, the Pox, or Cards, Dice and Wantonnesse.

[CAUTION.]
You must carefully avoid pronouncing Death rashly, and upon one single testimony, you must observe, though the Lord of the Ascendant be going to Combustion, whether either Jupiter or Venus cast not some Sextile or Trine to the Lord of the Ascendant, ere he come to perfect Combustion, or any other infortune, for that is an argument that either Medicine or Strength of Nature will contradict that malignant influence, or take off part of that misfortune; but when you find two or more of the rules asforesaid concurring to death, you may be more bold in your Judgement; yet concerning the absolute time of death of any party, I have found it best to be wary, and have as much as I could, refrained this manner of judgement; onely this much by the Question may be knowne, that if you find the Significators, as aforesaid, afflicted, you may judge the man or party inquiring to be no long lived man, or subject to many miseries and calamities, and this I know by many verified examples; the knowledge hereof is of excellent use for such as would purchase any Lease or Office, or thing for Life or Lives, &c. or for those who would carefully in a naturall way prevent those casualties their natures or inclinations would run them into.


Hope that will be of asistance.
Lillyjgc

[Neptune at its Finest]

I got two astrology books filled with charts that show people who have died in tragic accidents (i.e., hit by train, car accident, electrocution, death by fall, etc.) and charts of people who survived tragic accidents.

I do sell them. I only have three left of each one. They are good ones. Ask me and I will tell you.

I had two girlfriends die several months apart and they knew each other. One was murdered and the other died"mysteriously"in another country. I also had two male friends die one month apart 4 years ago, both from health complications. I looked at my chart when my one girlfriend was killed and Mars was opposing Venus and Saturn conjunct Venus. Oddly enough, Jupiter was conjunct Mars tightly sextiling Jupiter(6th/8th) and sextile Venus..I am still trying to figure out the good in that aspect. I have that coming up again here soon, but it should be a positive aspect so I dont know why it was part of that horrific event( she was foreign, so maybe that's where Jupiter comes in??) When my two male friends passed away I had Saturn conjunct my moon/ 12th and Mars conjunct midpoint and T. Jupiter conjunct T.venus-again, a Venus/Jupiter tie and T. Neptune conjunct 7th cusp .There was a trine to chiron in each of these cases (5th/9th) When my dog passed away Jupiter was conjunct Saturn, Mars conjunct vertex and square Venus , Pluto conjunct Neptune and Chiron trine Chiron.