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  #1  
Old 01-15-2008, 09:46 PM
4leafclovah
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Deceptive people..

What would be considered red flags in a chart if you were looking for signs of a deceptive individual? Neptune in the 1st could indicate deception, yes?
I am not talking about someone who tells little white lies, but someone who deceives with malicious intent.Any comments?

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  #2  
Old 01-16-2008, 08:07 AM
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Re: Deceptive people..

4LeafClovah,
I have afew charts involving people who have the issue of *deception* in their lives....
You refer to *someone who lies with malicious intent*...I'm not sure how one can objectively assess the *intent* or *motivation *that is behind a person's action...
People lie for as many reasons as there are people....
In one case, a person whose dishonesty/deception I personally experienced,
had their sun and asc quincunx...fire and water..Many of his/her lies were to protect from possible shame as a result of a very abusive upbringing....fear motivating his/her lying.
Another person I know who is very easily deceived, has neptune on the h7 cusp.
Another person whose deception I have experienced has mercury and neptune square in the natal.
To me Neptune in the first could ALSO indicate someone who is *blind* to what is going on..which could indicate gullibility.
One of the *biggest liars* I have met so far,has sun in H1 square neptune.
*Malicious intent* would be impossible to discern from a natal chart-or even a horary...
How one person impacts on another is more easily seen by looking at synastry charts...
Cheers, Lillyjgc
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  #3  
Old 01-16-2008, 10:39 AM
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Re: Deceptive people..

Yep, look for Neptune & any hard aspects to the sun/Asc . I have issues with Neptune & deception , they always seem to be NEPTUNE related. Also the 12th House of secrets & the hidden ......
L & L
Bobbi
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  #4  
Old 01-16-2008, 01:18 PM
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Re: Deceptive people..

I know a few people with Neptune in 1st conjunct asc and l can honestly say they are not deceptive!!

they are far more likely to be hoodwinked by another that hoodwink someone else!!!!

Anyone else agree?

In fact l think Neptune in 1st conjunct ASC is more likely to imply psychic ability, no?
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Last edited by Moulin; 01-16-2008 at 01:21 PM.
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Old 01-16-2008, 01:47 PM
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Re: Deceptive people..

Sounds like you are asking about people willing to cheat others out of something or lie to gain some advantage from them. A criminal type, anti social or sociopath personality. Hmm for once I am silent but I will think about it. There might be more than one aspect set or planetary combination in play for that kind of person. The compulsive lyer is slightly different to the deceitful (manipulative) person. Jupiter/Pluto = Neptune Saturn/Pluto = Neptune midpoints according to Ebertin.

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Old 01-16-2008, 08:25 PM
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Re: Deceptive people..

The problem is whether or not it is down to a question of discerning the 'level' from the chart, or how much store to put on the kind of planetary pictures specified by Ebertin. Or are those 'wise after the event?'

Maybe there is a 'Minority Report' job somewhere for an handful of astrologers. Get busy arresting a few people before they have actually done anything.

I once knew someone with Sun in Pisces in the radix square Neptune too.

He had doe eyes, lamented much about the hard life he had had - no surprise when he also told me his father was a heavy-duty alcoholic.

I could not be sure of his 'level' then, but the red flags started to fly when he told me that two other people I knew had stolen CD's from him. I did not know much about their charts, but they just did not seem to be the type of people who would steal. Whereas he....

Later on, I noticed that one or two cassettes of mine had disappeared after visitng him, then he started to cadge from me.

The cassettes were not great los, but I found out that he had borrowed a great deal of money from one or two others and swindled another out of a good deal of merchandise.
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  #7  
Old 01-16-2008, 10:08 PM
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Re: Deceptive people..

good points nexus. One doesn't usually get these types of people for readings per say. In my other business the justice department has sent me quite a few though. Some of the midpoint structures can be independant from accurate birth times or at least hold some ground with these aspects of personality. Some of the levels as you put it are difficult to assess but when I have seen how they work over a few years I guess I start trusting how they work and develop my own understandings of chart functions. Isn't that what an astrologer does?

What area of chart function are you more inclined to understand or investigate?

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  #8  
Old 01-16-2008, 10:21 PM
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Re: Deceptive people..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexus7

I once knew someone with Sun in Pisces in the radix square Neptune too.
He had doe eyes,.
Oh dear, you just described me( doe eyes, sun in Pisces, Nep sq.sun) BUT..I have never stolen in my life and I am not a liar( ok, a few little white lies have probably been told at some point.)My sun is in the 8th square Nep/5th and I have been the victim of deception several times and it is only because I chose not to listen to my intuition, even though I am very sensitive to peoples vibrations.Actually I am a very reliable person and loyal friend(Leo) I really think it all comes down to freedom of choice and how you choose to manifest certain energies. You could have a scary chart but live a very creative life and do something brilliant will the energy. Actually I think the more challenging a chart is the more power it has( for better or worse) Oh well, I guess the rest of my chart balances out the flaws

Last edited by 4leafclovah; 01-16-2008 at 10:33 PM.
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  #9  
Old 01-16-2008, 10:50 PM
gaer gaer is offline
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Re: Deceptive people..

As is true of abuse, it is very difficult to tell is someone is:

1) Someone who has been abused.
2) Someone who abuses others.
3) Both.

We are dealing with the same problem.

1) People who deceive others.
2) People who are deceived by others.
3) Both.

For deception I would certainly look at Neptune, but it would only be one factor out of many that MIGHT lead to a correct conclusion.
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Old 01-16-2008, 11:01 PM
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Re: Deceptive people..

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4leafclovah
What would be considered red flags in a chart if you were looking for signs of a deceptive individual? Neptune in the 1st could indicate deception, yes?
I am not talking about someone who tells little white lies, but someone who deceives with malicious intent.Any comments?
Wow...I have the dastardly Neptune in the 1st...and if I TRY to tell a lie...I feel sooooo guilty...ridiculously guilty...the Catholic kind of guilt...(I'm not even Catholic). And I don't think it makes me malicious at all...I wouldn't hurt a living soul. If anything I think it makes me overly-sensitive and empathetic. I literally put myself in another's shoes more often than not.

HOWEVER...I DO have two different names. I have my name that I was given at birth...and then...I have a "stage name" for my job. There more people that know me by my air name...than by my birth name...for sure. If I had a dollar for every person that admitted they'd had the wrong impression of me...after having been able to get to know me...well...I'd be rollin' in cash.

Neptune in the 1st causes duality in my personality...it's in Scorpio...so you blend that with Nep/1st with a Scorpio Ascendant...and it's all surrealistic at times...but malicious????? NEVER. It would break my heart to think I'd hurt another person. I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I caused pain or suffering to another person...even if they had done something bad to me...and I've got two ex-husbands that would attest to that.

But...I think that if Nep was afflicted with negative Pluto/Mars/Saturn with a cold natured Moon...it's possible. It all depends on placement and I think how you were reared as a child.

(For the record...my Neptune is sextile my natal Pluto and Jupiter and square to Mars in Leo...and my parents beat me half to death when I was kid if I even so much as THOUGHT about telling even a little white lie...so maybe that helped?)

By the way...I draw...paint...play music...write...none of those exceedingly well...at least in my opinion...so I believe that is part of that 1st House Neptune as well.

Other things that I believe are more accurate markers...

The Moon Square Mercury...or in negative aspect to Uranus and Pluto...teamed up with a nasty Mars square Pluto is a pretty good indicator I think. And as far as those smooth, easy trines...you betcha! The 12th house is a good place to look for those signs of deception, as well.

In the case of the 12th...the deception isn't always with other people...sometimes it's a person being deceptive with themselves...or they furrow into addiction trying to medicate themselves.
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  #11  
Old 01-16-2008, 11:09 PM
4leafclovah
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Re: Deceptive people..

Kizmet, I was just using the Nep/1st as just one possible example of many. Like Gaer said it can also be a case where you are the one being deceived.
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  #12  
Old 01-16-2008, 11:15 PM
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Re: Deceptive people..

Right on, Clovah...I promise I didn't take it in a bad way at all. : )

Check this out though...if you want to see the chart of a bonafide pathological liar...the mean kind...astro.com this one...

7/12/66
408 am
Bremerhaven, Germany

You have all the elements in there...an abusive person...pathological tendencies...charisma...evil to the nth degree...
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  #13  
Old 01-16-2008, 11:17 PM
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Re: Deceptive people..

Quote:
Originally Posted by kizmetbaby
Right on, Clovah...I promise I didn't take it in a bad way at all. : )

Check this out though...if you want to see the chart of a bonafide pathological liar...the mean kind...astro.com this one...

7/12/66
408 am
Bremerhaven, Germany

You have all the elements in there...an abusive person...pathological tendencies...charisma...evil to the nth degree...
OOh, I will have to take a look right now!
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  #14  
Old 01-16-2008, 11:19 PM
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Re: Deceptive people..

Who's chart is it?
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Old 01-16-2008, 11:20 PM
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Re: Deceptive people..

Let's just say...I had seven years to study this person...*ahem*
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Old 01-16-2008, 11:25 PM
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Re: Deceptive people..

Quote:
Originally Posted by kizmetbaby
Wow...I have the dastardly Neptune in the 1st...and if I TRY to tell a lie...I feel sooooo guilty...ridiculously guilty...the Catholic kind of guilt...(I'm not even Catholic). And I don't think it makes me malicious at all...I wouldn't hurt a living soul. If anything I think it makes me overly-sensitive and empathetic. I literally put myself in another's shoes more often than not.
I have Neptune conjunct Sun/Moon. It's also sextile Pluto, but that latter aspect is in the charts of people born over the last 50 or more years.

And I had to LEARN how to lie. To this day it is very difficult, even if it is necessary. It also took me many years to protect myself from dishonest people, though Mercury in Scorpio is obviously a big help in unconvering hidden motives.
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Old 01-16-2008, 11:26 PM
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Re: Deceptive people..

Wait a minute!

Clovah...you are absolutely right! I was the one that got duped in that deal...from the very beginning...in SOO many ways. Wow. Oh yeah.
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Old 01-16-2008, 11:32 PM
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Re: Deceptive people..

Gaer...I'm going to go look at your chart. : )

Neptune makes me want to see things as all pretty and idealistic. I have this weird stellium in the 11th and an Aquarian Moon...and it counters my Scorpio rising tendencies. I can't hold a grudge...and it makes me want to understand WHY people do the things they do. I just can't stay mad at people or harbor resentment...and if I do...once again...I am STEEPED in horrendous guilt. I will literally try to do something FOR the person I've felt that way about to try to relieve myself and "repent" so to speak for how I've felt.

I'm mental.

*sigh*
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Old 01-16-2008, 11:44 PM
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Re: Deceptive people..

I think it is one matter whether there is a potential signature for 'lying' in the chart however how one might act with that function. Mercury in Pisces might be a spiritually inclined thinker or in fact someone who tends towards mistruths but it will be the Mars/Uranus or Saturn/Uranus/Moon or some other signature that might tend toward breaking the law or harming another person; ie antisocial behaviours.

Thanks for including some charts to reference all.

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Old 01-16-2008, 11:52 PM
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Re: Deceptive people..

First thing I noticed is the Sun conjunct Jupiter conj. ascendant /Cancer trine Nep/5th Scorpio. My interpretation is that he comes across as very nurturing or emotional and uses this in his love relationships to get what he wants( also Pisces ruler of 10th) Did he milk you for your money?
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Old 01-16-2008, 11:56 PM
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Re: Deceptive people..

Money...oh yeah. You have NO idea. He STILL makes money off me. He was the biggest mistake of my life...and I couldn't see it. In a perfect world we'd never have to ever speak to each other again. Yuck!
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Old 01-16-2008, 11:59 PM
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Re: Deceptive people..

That really *****. Well, at least you have the experience to never let it happen again right?
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Old 01-17-2008, 01:27 AM
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Re: Deceptive people..

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4leafclovah
That really *****. Well, at least you have the experience to never let it happen again right?
Ha! Never again...

I have the South Node conjunct and Chiron opposing Venus...I gave up a looooong time ago.
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Old 01-17-2008, 02:29 AM
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Re: Deceptive people..

I have neptune in the 1st trine my moon. I have been known to be gullible. I had to grow out of it in my youth. But still, I have an innocent quality to always want to idealize people and think the best of them. For example, I never know what's going on in the gossip mill at work. I always just assume that everyone has good intentions like me! It took me a long time to accept the fact that people can just be evil. But that was in my 20's! Anyways I agree with neptune in 1st being intuitive, artistic, and head in the clouds!!!

As far as deceptive people. You have to look at a scorpionic influence. I have scorpio rising conjunct uranus in scorpio. I can be very private. The scorpios that I know keep a secret just for the sake of keeping one. So, that can turn in to deception depending upon the situation or person. Anyways, that's my 2 cents!
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Old 01-17-2008, 04:17 AM
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Re: Deceptive people..

Mercury opposition Neptune
This confirgeration may cause someone to purposefully mystify or deceive others.

I have it and I can be convincing at times. But I gave up the deceptiveness/fakeness a while back. It was too much work and once I became a mom- and turned 40- there is only the truth to live by because there is nothing more real and wonderful than having a child.

--De
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