What aspects make for a good athlete?

[deanna]

I wanted to get a discussion started on what astrological aspects make for a good athlete?

Mars in the 12th house leans that way. What else?


Quick story about athletic ability---I Just wanted to share something interesting:

My great Uncle was Wilfred Hetzel. (I am not sure of his birth date)
He toured the country doing a basketball trick shot program for high school and Middle schools during a 47 year career. He promoted himself as the world's record holder for continuous free throws - 110 baskets one after another,

He had a very unusual ability to perform approximately seventy trick shots. Some of his statistical feats were phenomenal. He once bounced in thirty five consecutive bounce lay upshots from the right hand side of the basket.


He sank sixty six consecutive free throws from two knees. He also sank 144 consecutive free throws while balancing upon one foot. In addition he sank ninety two of one hundred free throws while blindfolded and shooting the basketball off one hand while balancing upon one foot.

Several of these astonishing shooting feats were featured in Ripley's "Believe-It-Or-Not!" and a book entitled "Strange As It Seems". Wilfred also possessed a very long distance shooting ability. In demonstrational exhibition shows he would throw a basketball with one hand (like a football) from sixty feet. He once sank three in a row this way.

I look forward to reading others insights on what types of charts/aspects make for a good athlete.

Best Regards,
De

[Catatonia]

Mars in dignity/angular placed or in its joy in the 6th house (Mars in Aries or Scorpio in an angular house to the ascendant 1st/4th/7th/10th)

Sun exalted in Aries preferrably disposed by a good Mars (fire sign). Houses also angular. Positive aspects to planets help, but squares produce activity

Good Mars/Jup combo

Hmmmmm...

[wilsontc]

deanna,

You said:

astrological aspects make for a good athlete? Mars in the 12th house leans that way

I am a little doubtful of this. Mars (being, also action) focused in the 12th house (spirituality) causes a "dissolving" effect on Mars. So the person scatters their Mars energy (they do not "own" their Mars energy) and finds it challenging to focus and take action. While this is useful for a person in a meditative trance, it is not useful for an athlete. An exception to this is if Mars conjuncts (energy is connected with) the Ascendant (self) from the 12th house. In this case, the person is able to take action but their actions are "hidden" (12th house is a hidden house) from them so they may not know exactly what type of actions they are going to take at any time.

Spiritually,

Tim

[gaer]

First, a question:

Are you talking about what makes someone athletic, or someone with the talent and drive to become a champion?

Gaer

[RockFish]

"I am a little doubtful of this. Mars (being, also action) focused in the 12th house (spirituality) causes a "dissolving" effect on Mars."

I know a man who has Mars conjunct Jupiter in the 12th. He is very energetic and loves sports, he is indeed very prone to physical activites. When he was younger, there have been some chances to be a professional athlete, with invitations to join a team of gimnastics, but he said he hated the competitive apect of the sports he was involved with. He didn't like the aggressiveness of competitions (probably something related to 12th house and the sweeter quality of its natural sign, Pisces). So I guess Mars in 12th brings proneness to sports, but more focused on the fun and health (12th-6th axis).

Mars in the 9th is better for someone who is interested in getting into competitions.

[tricky raven]

My thoughts on Mars in the 12th house is someone who if competitive accomplishes this by working alone. This is the house of secrets. It is also when we will explore and develop our inner strengths and find a deeper understanding of ourselves.

Someone with Mars in the 1st house could show a person who is physically active. It would seem to activate the competitive spirit in each of us and inspire us to agressively demonstrate our physyical skills.

[flea]

I thought they did some research which showed prof sports people had an unusually high percentage of mars on ascendent or MC. For the life of me I cant remember the name of the guy doing research but he was a famous astrology identity.

Love Light Peace
Flea

[wilsontc]

Rock,

You said:

I know a man who has Mars conjunct Jupiter in the 12th...He is very energetic and loves sports...He didn't like the aggressiveness of competitions...So I guess Mars in 12th brings proneness to sports

Since Mars is connected with "action" and Jupiter energy is connected with "sports", Mars conjunct (energy is combined with) Jupiter indicates being active in sports. This has nothing to do with the 12th house. The 12th house comes in with his being unwilling to "own" the "aggressiveness of competitions". In other words, his energetic sports interests (Mars conjunct Jupiter) are "dissolved" in the 12th house (his unwilling to personally own his Mars conjunct Jupiter).

Dissolving,

Tim

[Sag Moon]

The main findings and research done by Gauquelin and I believe his findings were that Mars in the 10th is a good indicator of this ability.It is also tied to surgeons.

If you want to know more about his findings I would get a book by him as he did extensive research in the area.

I try to always remember to look at the Gauquelin Sectors to see what planets are highly pivitol in the subjects life.

The angles are very important.

Other factors are any conjunction to Sirius and if the NN is on the 9th house side of the MC which usually equates to fame.The Moon and Uranus are other factors for fame and popularity.Mars is activity.

Look at OJ's chart and a few others for indicators of the ability.

All that being said there are always different aspects that will highlight a chart and none are set in stone as there being a shoe in for being anything.

I did print out special charts for actors,Military leaders,Atletes,Religious leaders etc. to see what might be certain things that showed up.

What I found which was unusual is that Military leaders have marked 12th placements as an example.That I equate for those that need to plan things behind the scenes to create strategy to win wars and do battle.Even presidents have marked 12th placements which is unusual.

Gauquelin found that the degrees preceding the angles are most important also. As an expample Hitler had Uranus in the degrees preceding the 1st house.It has been written by some that this point in the chart is very unfortunate,but that can be debated as I have seen it as just being those things being made public or brought to hte public light.

Stallone also has Ur just before the 7th as an example of fame and having the preceding degree of the angles being of such importance.

Hope that helps or sheds some light on the question!

[RockFish]

"Since Mars is connected with "action" and Jupiter energy is connected with "sports", Mars conjunct (energy is combined with) Jupiter indicates being active in sports. This has nothing to do with the 12th house."

Wilson, I was thinking more in the terms of Gauquelin's researches. I think he found that the 12th and 9th houses are the "hotspots" for the expression of certain planets, particularly Mars.

In traditional astrology the 10th and the 1st would be good places for Mars and sports. I don't know if this is really the case, would have to look for charts of athletes. Right now, the charts that come to my mind are Tiger Woods and Cassius Clay, both with Mars in 9th.

I have Mars in first (domicile) in Capricorn (exhalted), conjunct with Sun exhalted in the 1st house. And I hate sports, LOL.

[Sag Moon]

just used OJ as one example.

He laso has Sirius highlighted in his chart. He is also a murderer I believe,but before that a pure athlete.

I have many others in my database and there are plenty on he web to be found.

[Catatonia]

the 9th and 12th houses are not expressive angles for Mars. the houses are cadent, which means they are declining. unless you have planetary dignity or mars conjunct the MC in the 9th house, they are probably two of the least comfortable areas for mars. planetary declines literally decline--not very mars friendly. angles point to action, so if you have mars conjunct the MC in the 9th, the energies of the 9th and 10th houses will be combined in some way and connected to mars, giving it more opportunity to express itself.

Catatonia

[gaer]

Originally Posted by Shining Ray

It is probably not easy to look at one placement and come to the conclusion the person will be into sports - as astrology is not that easy, you usually find a certain signature.

This is why I asked a question trying to find out if people are just looking for athletic ability or the peculiar combination of traits that go together to make a champion.

I believe each of us has at least one special area of interest in astrology. Mine has always been aspects. The nice thing about aspects is that they are not dependent on an accurate birth-time (which is always nice to have, of course).

The only planet that is a problem is the Moon, of course, which can be off more than seven degrees if we set for noon, on the right day.

And of course we can't read houses or "points".

I have not found the sign of Mars or house it is in to be consistent in the natals of famous athletes.

Here is the info for the few charts that at least claim a reliable birth-time.

For instance:

Tiger Woods: Mars in Gemini, 9th
Roger Federer: Mars in Cancer, 11th (though just barely in the 11th)
Michael Jordan: Mars in Leo, in the 4th

Again, I do not necessarily trust these birth-times.

One of the indications I've found in the charts of many champions is this:

The planets Mars, Jupiter and Pluto are often in very hard aspect to each other, often in pairs (such as Mars/Jupiter, Mars/Pluto and Jupiter/Pluto), and in a suprising number of cases all three are involved.

I could give examples, if your or anyone else is interested.

Gaer

[Moulin]

A good mixture of fire, air and grounding of earth l find make a worthy champion

[gaer]

Originally Posted by Moulin

A good mixture of fire, air and grounding of earth l find make a worthy champion

Perhaps the dominance of an element of lack of it might show HOW a champion wins.

[Moulin]

Yes Gaer,
I'm looking at Ayrton Senna's chart... he was a worthy champion!

Aries sun
Aquarius rising
Capricorn moon

[gaer]

Originally Posted by Moulin

Yes Gaer,
I'm looking at Ayrton Senna's chart... he was a worthy champion!

Aries sun
Aquarius rising
Capricorn moon

Interesting. I had never heard of this person, since I don't follow racing.

But there is Pluto, though not in aspect to Mars or Jupiter. It is opp Venus and widely opp Mercury. But there are hard aspects to Pluto, Jupiter is square Sun, Mars and Uranus are angular.

Mars, Aqua opp Uranus, Leo, certainly interesting in terms of being in each other's sign if you use the modern rulership fo Aqua.

But I see what you are driving at, I think. Far more than a winner. Someone who was a superior human being.

I was thinking of something different. I noticed that two champions in tennis, Bjorn Borg and Chris Evert, were very strong in water. Evert was most remarkable, 6 planets in Water (using Sun through Pluto). Both these champions were known not for attacking but outlasting their oponents.

And Ali, with nothing more than Pluto in fire, earth dominant, was never known for being a knock-out puncher (I believe). I know very little about fighting, but if I remember correctly, he was another person who often won in late rounds. It would be interesting to compare him with someone who with a very different style.

Tyson also had a lot of water, so there goes the idea of water showing defensive tactics. Interesting, though, that he lacks the aspects I found the people I consider great champions. I can find not information on his birth-time, but Mars is unaspected, which is very unusual. Strange chart, worth a look at. If he was born later in the day, the Moon is badly aspected. He was born on a rare day when Pluto and Uranus were dead-on conjunct, to the nearest minute.

Gaer

[Moulin]

Exactly Gaer, which is why l chose Senna. He was a superior human being. Almost invincible and could make the car do things that were considered impossible for the car!!

Genius sportsman.

Racing drivers are fitter and take on more stress in their sports than any other sport on the planet.

I agree about Tyson. He was way too emotional though... but so was Senna.
Emotional = water no? I think water gives maybe fluidity in their chosen profession and yet if emotions are too involved can cause the individual to do something rash like bite off your opponent's ear

Ali fits the earth thing brilliantly! He was so slow in body and yet so fast in hand and what a punch! Quick brain, slow body.. hmmm

interesting thread!

[Moulin]

Rocky Marciano was born Rocco Francis Marchegiano, on September 1, 1923, in Brockton, Massachusetts.

He was a great boxer.. 49 wins. 0 losses 43 KO's

WOW

Will try to find his birth time

[MysticWoman87]

I would think that a strong Jupiter in a fire sign/house and/or mars in a fire sign/house would confer athletic ability when aspected to each other. Uranus might figure into this and there must be a strong Saturn to harness the energy and give a willingness to make an effort toward success. The Magi Society also claims that the Sun-Jupiter trine is the "aspect of champions" if that's something you want to look into.

[Moulin]

wow what a great chart Shining Ray!

Do they call this chart a fan or something? Would moon in the 8th show transformation through emotion?

[wilsontc]

Moulin,

You asked:

Do they call this chart a fan or something?

It is a "fan" if you include Chiron in the pattern. If you do not include Chiron in the pattern, it is a "bundle".

Giving choices,

Tim

[gaer]

Originally Posted by Shining Ray

I was on astrodatabank yesterday just browsing through the charts and I came across this athletes chart, an Olympic swimmer. Although when I first looked at his chart I put him down as a thinking intellectual artsy type just looking at all the Libra, luckily at the bottom of his biography it said this:

Swimmers have very brief careers. From Wikipedia:

"Subsequent training camps were interrupted, and he announced his retirement in November 2006, citing waning motivation."

It will be interesting to see what he does with his life, since he is only 25 years old now. It's hard to imagine being over the hill at age 25! (This refers only to swimming, of course.)

He does have Pluto/Saturn/Sun conjunct. Pluto is also widely square the AC. So two key players (Sun and Pluto) are in very dynamic aspect. Saturn is powerfully placed too, in the 10th and exalted in Libra, conjunct Sun/Pluto and sextile Neptune and Moon.

Swimming, like running, is a strange sport. There is no physical contact, and you do not compete against a single opponent as you do in other "individual sports". As to where the pure physical talent comes from, I have no idea.

By the way, Happy New Year!

Gaer

[Moulin]

I would think that mars plays a large part in swimmers and runners, with stamina and focus being such a primary need.

Great points!

lol then l checked and saw Mars in Sag.. l guess that figures
Sag and travel and speed and all that

Originally Posted by gaer

Swimmers have very brief careers. From Wikipedia:

"Subsequent training camps were interrupted, and he announced his retirement in November 2006, citing waning motivation."

It will be interesting to see what he does with his life, since he is only 25 years old now. It's hard to imagine being over the hill at age 25! (This refers only to swimming, of course.)

He does have Pluto/Saturn/Sun conjunct. Pluto is also widely square the AC. So two key players (Sun and Pluto) are in very dynamic aspect. Saturn is powerfully placed too, in the 10th and exalted in Libra, conjunct Sun/Pluto and sextile Neptune and Moon.

Swimming, like running, is a strange sport. There is no physical contact, and you do not compete against a single opponent as you do in other "individual sports". As to where the pure physical talent comes from, I have no idea.

By the way, Happy New Year!

Gaer

[gaer]

Originally Posted by Shining Ray

All good points gaer, the Sun/Saturn/Pluto aspect looks tough, I would guess depression must have featured in his life as he is Capricorn rising as well.

Well, right now he is still quite young, and it's very hard to find any information about what he is doing now. Swimming stars fade from view when their careers are over.

Thought you might be interested in this, which is still old, and the source is Wiki:

"Thorpe's interests in fashion and culture resulted in him making frequent visits to New York City (which he describes as a second home), often for obligations with Armani. He was present at the World Trade Center the morning of September 11, 2001, having stopped there on his morning jog before returning to his hotel."

That's over six years ago, but with five planets in Libra, you almost have to laugh at how stereotypical that sounds.

Coaching would be the perfect avenue for him I think, although I still wonder about the Libra sign strong in his chart, I may look more into it, but actually appearance wise and how he presents himself I see the Libra.

I will be surprised if he goes into coaching. It must feel bizarre to get that much attention/fame at such a young age, then have to make decision about what you want to do when you are "over the hill" before the age of 25!

As you say Saturn exalted in 10th is powerfully placed lots of perseverance which is needed for the physical training. Although the Libra M.C doesn't seem sporty but I suppose since he is retired at a young age there is plenty of other things he will probably focus on.

Swimmers are not necessarily very well coordinated in other sports. When looking at sports such as basketball or tennis (and many others), you often find out that famous athletes were good at two, three or more sports and originally planned to focus on something other than what they end up in.

We also have to understand how short careers are in sports that put such a premium on stamina. Bjorn Borg retired at age 26. I think Pete Sampras was about 30. You see very few important wins in Tennis after age 30. Gymnastics is a sport in which people peak in their teens or very early 20s.

On the other hand, in team sports, where pure stamina plays less of a role and experience is more important, you see people continue to dominate for much longer.

Although swimming would not be classed as a rough or ugly looking sport although he has done more rugged training on land maybe Mars in Sagittarius helps with the Sun/Saturn/Pluto these can be powerful aspects. the only earth in his chart is the Capricorn Asc.

Mars is nicely aspected, I think, but it is not in the "hard" position that I associate with "fighters". I'm using that word to describe people who fight to win for many years. It does not seem that swimming was the kind of obsession for him that it has been for others. I kept seeing references to things like "I wanted it to be fun".

I also wonder what kind of astrological data indicate size 17 feet!!!

Gaer