Finding the right birth hour - please help?

Arena

Well-known member
I am afraid to say that astrology is a lot more complicated than you expected. Many members here studied for 20-60 years and still learning. Many of the known professional astrologers had done Ph.D degree for astrology and continue life long research and conferences including book writings of course.

Astrology is art/science shared by all human civilizations and more than 5000 years of development. Yes, you are too native. To learn astrology, one must devoted his or herself truly into it and in fact a high level of obsession is needed trying to learn 5000 years old plus of methods (one will soon realize learning only one form of astrology is not satisfying enough), even if you study it every day, a short life of 50-90 years is simply not enough...

Yes I know that lots of people studied it for a long long time and I myself have had an obsession for this hobby (for me) since 2004. I studied chinese astrology and also found there are many levels to deepen your understanding and knowledge. But there still are in all systems basic princips that should work and astrology seems to brag of having them but I think it is the many different people making up so many different kind of systems that are confusing the issue :) ... and therefore maybe the "basic princips" are getting lost in confusion. I am looking for those basic princips and I have to say from my naivite that if there is no such thing as basic princips to the system, then I think astrology is not useful at all :biggrin: :sad:

I do however still keep my faith in my journey to finding them :)
I think the "key" might be exactly in the words you said of a 5000 year old system - the basic princips are probably to be found in the older traditional methods. But I do think the newer planets (Uranus, Neptunus and Pluto) are still part of interpretation. A whole sign house system seems to be one of those olden days "keys" to the basic princips.
 

poyi

Premium Member
Actually all systems work and all systems are in fact based on common principles; the more you explore the more similarities you can see and synthesize.
 

Arena

Well-known member
Well, am reading through some useful links from poyi http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showpost.php?p=517964&postcount=11

...so I will put down a list of my own planets as they are in signs and I don't have to think of the houses now. However, I must add for the sake of study that my chart can be a nocturnal chart but it can also be a diurnal chart as by solar hour I am actually born just around sunset :) - isn't it nice to have so many confusions? :sick::w00t::pinched::whistling::biggrin: ...so when I start looking into all the arabic parts I need to know what minute to use for my birth as it changes the arabic parts in many cases.

Anyway my planets:

1 Sun is placed in Leo, domicile
2 Moon is placed in Taurus, exaltation ...ruled by Venus which is ruled by Mercury wich is ruled by Sun
3 Mercury Leo, position not listed - ruled by Sun
4 Venus Gemini - position not listed, but ruled by Mercury which is ruled by Sun
5 Mars Leo, position not listed in this table (but I had seen another table online where Mars is said to be exalted in Leo) Mars is ruled by Sun
6 Jupiter Sagittarius, domicile
7 Saturn Gemini, position not listed, ruled by Mercury which is ruled by Sun

Modern planets
1 Uranus in Libra - ruled by Venus - final dispositor is the Sun
2 Neptune in Sagittarius - ruled by Jupiter
3 Pluto in Libra - ruled by Venus - final dispositor is the Sun


Then when I do find the right chart I will have to see if there are accidental dignities - happens if the planets are on the axis.


In my case there seems to be no final dispositor as both Sun and Jupiter are in their domicile:
If there is more than one planet in its own sign in a chart, then there is no final dispositor. Additionally, in charts where there are no planets in their own signs there can be no final dispositor.

But I noted above in bold anyway that the Sun seems to be the final dispositor of most of the planets. So I am guessing that the Sun and Jupiter are very important in my chart. ... So maybe I could say without all houses and without the ASC ... that my natal chart might promise or predict me to be a person that might become famous (SUN) (wishful thinking :) ), but already true in local community... and be into Jupiter stuff like law, preaching, expanding and moving a lot/travelling. If Jupiter turns out to be on the MC -then even more important.
 
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poyi

Premium Member
Recrification of birth time, pretty much equal to=God forbidden task...(my version of the Mission Impossible)
 

Arena

Well-known member
Recrification of birth time, pretty much equal to=God forbidden task...(my version of the Mission Impossible)

Hehehe - I like missions impossibles :biggrin:

... and as I said there have been so many useful links posted for me to learn and I thank you all ... I do not however accept a chart to be TRUE until it consistently tells me a life story, so for me this is a quest for the truth ... and maybe I won't find it, but maybe I will :rightful:

... am thinking that Lauren Delsack's book about rectification might be one of my needed keys to the truth.
 

GraceK

Member
I am afraid to say that astrology is a lot more complicated than you expected. Many members here studied for 20-60 years and still learning. Many of the known professional astrologers had done Ph.D degree for astrology and continue life long research and conferences including book writings of course.

Astrology is art/science shared by all human civilizations and more than 5000 years of development. Yes, you are too native. To learn astrology, one must devoted his or herself truly into it and in fact a high level of obsession is needed trying to learn 5000 years old plus of methods (one will soon realize learning only one form of astrology is not satisfying enough), even if you study it every day, a short life of 50-90 years is simply not enough...

I think you're so right about how complicated astrology is (can be). That's exactly why, after doing a basic course where we all stood in various places on the floor of our teacher's room holding pieces of coloured string and tugging on them. This was how he taught us about aspects and how we'd feel if we were 'conjunct' or 'in opposition'. The tugs on the pieces of string felt different depending on how we stood related to one another. That one little exercise taught me a great deal. We then went on to doing our own charts and members of our family. It was intriguing but I left it there because, as you rightly said above, it has to become an obsession in order to devote enough time to the subject. For me it was enough to know that our birth chart is the reason for many a mystery and astrology the key to many a locked door and intuition is another key and we can use them all together or individually.
 

poyi

Premium Member
I think you're so right about how complicated astrology is (can be). That's exactly why, after doing a basic course where we all stood in various places on the floor of our teacher's room holding pieces of coloured string and tugging on them. This was how he taught us about aspects and how we'd feel if we were 'conjunct' or 'in opposition'. The tugs on the pieces of string felt different depending on how we stood related to one another. That one little exercise taught me a great deal. We then went on to doing our own charts and members of our family. It was intriguing but I left it there because, as you rightly said above, it has to become an obsession in order to devote enough time to the subject. For me it was enough to know that our birth chart is the reason for many a mystery and astrology the key to many a locked door and intuition is another key and we can use them all together or individually.

Oh yer I did the similar thing in my head. I thought if I stand at 1st house looking at 8th house the angle is different to everyone else looking at the 8th house. Also if the ruler of 8th in the 1st the position of rulership, the energy will be expressed from 1st toward 8th, 8th is the receiver etc. It is a bit like light and reflection of light by lenses or like jumping rubber ball. Final dispositor is where the ball first started activated the force of chain reaction. To me is a bit of physic in it.
 

Arena

Well-known member
No comments on the rulers of chart being the Sun and Jupiter?

I might add that those ASC in question being studied are
Cancer, Gemini, Aries and Sagittarius and their rulers/final dispositors would be; Sun, Sun, Sun or Jupiter.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Ok thank you.

I see it is the same method that Lauren Delsack is using to help her with rectification, it's actually the first thing she looks at, counting the planets one degree forward for one year
ON THE CONTARY

Vettius Valens method
is fully explained in Book IV (4) of Vettius Valens Anthology, beginning on page 71 of Professor Riley's free online translation http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/Vettius Valens entire.pdf and Margherita Fiorello's method http://heavenastrolabe.net/seeing-in-the-future-solar-returns-profections-directions/ are both entirely different from the one you have mentioned :smile:

For Profections the entire natal chart is profected THIRTY DEGREES for one year
But is that also the case for the Moon in profections? Only one degree a year? or more?
As explained, Profections profect the entire natal chart thirty degrees for one year
ProfectionWheel.jpg
 

poyi

Premium Member
ON THE CONTARY

Vettius Valens method
is fully explained in Book IV (4) of Vettius Valens Anthology, beginning on page 71 of Professor Riley's free online translation http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/Vettius Valens entire.pdf and Margherita Fiorello's method http://heavenastrolabe.net/seeing-in-the-future-solar-returns-profections-directions/ are both entirely different from the one you have mentioned :smile:

For Profections the entire natal chart is profected THIRTY DEGREES for one year

As explained, Profections profect the entire natal chart thirty degrees for one year
ProfectionWheel.jpg

Profection is actually very similar to Chinese system on 1 house/sign equal one year of life just like above, but we also have 10 years cycle per house/sign. Profection has similar thing?
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Oh yer I did the similar thing in my head.
I thought if I stand at 1st house looking at 8th house
the angle is different to everyone else looking at the 8th house
A planet in 8th house ignores a planet in 1st house and vice versa because of the Quincunx / Inconjunct Factor

Disjunct = Inconjunct = Quincunx :smile:


Unless an intermediary can somehow bring the Disjunct planets together
then
because they cannot communicate with each other from their respective locations
they appear to ignore each other
 

poyi

Premium Member
A planet in 8th house ignores a planet in 1st house and vice versa because of the Quincunx / Inconjunct Factor

Disjunct = Inconjunct = Quincunx :smile:


Unless an intermediary can somehow bring the Disjunct planets together
then
because they cannot communicate with each other from their respective locations
they appear to ignore each other

Not really thinking of aspect. I was thinking about rulership using my own chart, my 1st house Mars, rules the 8th house.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Not really thinking of aspect. I was thinking about rulership using my own chart, my 1st house Mars, rules the 8th house.
So ruler of 8th is DISJUNCT from own house
disconnected from own house
ignores own house
needs an intermediary
cannot communicate with own house
from location of 1st house
:smile:
 

poyi

Premium Member
So ruler of 8th is DISJUNCT from own house
disconnected from own house
ignores own house
needs an intermediary
cannot communicate with own house
from location of 1st house
:smile:

lol maybe I can escape death. Anyhow I have to go to work. Think about this on my break time.
 

poyi

Premium Member
Oh no JA not quite true. Virgo and Aries are antisicon. Secret friendly, helping or at least under the table affair. Lol I am way far from ignoring the 8th house death, fear, sorrow, transformation and occult. Not so much into the sexual side of 8th but surely aware enough of that energy.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Oh no JA not quite true. Virgo and Aries are antisicon. Secret friendly, helping or at least under the table affair. Lol I am way far from ignoring the 8th house death, fear, sorrow, transformation and occult. Not so much into the sexual side of 8th but surely aware enough of that energy.
Well then you have a planet that acts as intermediary :smile:
 

poyi

Premium Member
In Chinese astrology we have the similar system highly important in chart interpretation. When I finally got the western concepts I had a big laugh as I found something so important and new to me yet I used it for 15 years already in Chinese system lol

An interesting thread about this concept.

http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/018644.html
 

Arena

Well-known member
Well, lots of reading material now, am currently looking into the Books of Vettius Valens. That is from traditional astrology, right?

JA, do you have no comment at all about my chart's final dispositors, Sun and Jupiter?

I just tried doing that on my son's chart and it got me kind of worried, he has Saturn as chart's final dispositor.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Well, lots of reading material now, am currently looking into the Books of Vettius Valens. That is from traditional astrology, right?

JA, do you have no comment at all about my chart's final dispositors, Sun and Jupiter?

I just tried doing that on my son's chart and it got me kind of worried, he has Saturn as chart's final dispositor.
Trutine of Hermes aka Pre-Natal Epoch as well as Animodar
are ancient techniques from approximately two thousand years ago and utilise traditional methods for their calculation.
'Final Dispositor' is a Modern technique. Traditional methods involve determining the Almuten of a Chart
and not the 'Final Dispositor'


QUOTE

'...Almuten
= The strongest planet when all essential dignities are considered. The term is Arabic and derives from al-mateen, meaning 'the firm one' or 'strong in power', but the concept exists in the works of Ptolemy and other early classical astrologers.

The method of identifying the almuten involves considering the full range of essential dignities, so that rulership by sign, exaltation, triplicity, term and face is considered - not just rulership by sign. Hence Venus is said to rule the sign of Libra but Saturn is the almuten, being capable of assuming rulership by exaltation, triplicity, term and face....'
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/almuten.html

'.....A point scoring technique is often used to determine the almuten of any given point. This, and further details are outlined in part 5 of the tutorial Understanding Planetary Dignity and Debility.

The Almuten of the Figure is the most dignified planet in the chart. This is often confused with the Lord of the Geniture but generally the Almuten of the Figure does not recognise accidental dignity whereas the Lord of the Geniture does...'

Explanation and discussion at this thread
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=381593#post381593
I was asked in private message to explain the method of calculating the Almutem Figuris of the chart, so I thought that since this is new forum (traditional astrology) it would be better to open a thread here and explain the method publicly where we can all discuss it.

Almutem Figuris is an old doctrine where one planet according to certain calculations applied, receives the honors to be the Ruler or Lord of the Chart.
Robert Zoler had applied the therm AlmuteM instead of AlmuteN in order to differentiate the Lord of the Chart from the Lord of certain house or place in the natal chart such as Almuten Domus (Ruler of a House).

The word Almutes is an Arabian word which means 'Winner'.
Because, the planet is the Winner of all the 'life giving' places. Or the places which are most sensible and important in the natal figure.


The method which we'll use here I call Ezra/Zoller method.
Arabian Astrologer Ibn Ezra (1089 — 1164) was the first (as far as we at this moment are aware) to explicitely wrote about calculating the Almutem Figuris.

In his writings Zoller trace the beginnings of this Almutem Figuris and he found it in the writings of Iambichus (c. 245–c. 325) who was Syrian neo-platonic philosopher who wrote also about Astrology in his writings.
Iambicus in his work "Theurgy or on the mysteries of Egypt" speaks about the thing how one can change his fate. He speaks that he can do that through Theurgy and through personal relationship with the Lord of the Geniture of which he (Iambichus) only says that can be known through Astrology, but he didn't explained the method.
Zoller, tracing back the Ibn Ezra's ancestry, through the Sabaeans and his teachers (Mashallah and other) all the way to the first centuries where this doctrine was thought. Because of that line Zoller thinks that the Lord of the Geniture of which Iambichus speaks in his writings is in fact the Almutem Figuris of the Ibn Ezra.

Iambichus speaks (through the name of Porphyry) about the Peculiar Daimon, that is some kind of an Guardian Angel and it is conected to the personal soul but its not the same
Here's what Iambichus says in his Theurgy:
This [daimon] therefore is present as an exemplar before the souls descend into the realm of generated existence. As soon as the soul chooses him for leader the [daimon] immediately comes into charge of completing of its vital endowments and when it descends into the body it unites with the body and becomes the guardian of it common living principle. He likewise directs the the private life of the soul and
whatever the conclusions we may arrive at by inference and reasoning he himself imparts to us the principles."


Zoller about the Almutem Figuris says that it is equally as powerful as all the other planets taken together."

Benjamin Dykes (great student of Zoller) says about Almutem Figuris:
"Almutem Figuris, a powerful planet in the natal figure whose spirit or angel acts as the native's special link to the Divine. The Almutem Figuris is a spiritual astrological delineation, similar to but not the same as Lilly's the "Lord of the Geniture." But like Lilly (and Plato), the Almutem Figuris was taken to affect the native's thoughts, beliefs and character. Spiritual enlightenment can demand that we open our eyes to this particular planet and use it to access the Divine. Significantly, this is a function that many modern astrologers now attribute to the sun sign." (In his article on Happiness).

The method of calculation

1. Find the Essential Dignities (the 5 dignities, apply 3 points to all 3 triplicity rulers), in the Degree of the:
- Sun
- Moon
- Ascendant
- Part of Fortune
- Syzygy (the prenatal lunation, the one that came last, i.e. after which the birth follows - New or Full Moon).

2. Add 7 points for the Day ruler and 6 points to the Hour ruler.

3. Add accidental dignities scores.

For the planet in 1st house you add 12 points.
10th house = 11 points
7th house = 10
4th house = 9
11th = 8
5th = 7
2nd = 6
9th = 5
8th = 4
3rd = 3
12th = 2
6th = 1

The planet which has most points in the aforesaid places is the Almutem Figuris of the chart!

Don't forget to apply the 5 degrees ruler for the planet near the cusp of the houses. For example, if Saturn is at 15 Scorpio in 4th, but the 5th house cusp is at 19 Scorpio, you will calculate that Saturn already in the 5th, and you will give him 7 points instead of 9 as he would took if he was in 4th house. This can make big difference.

The free traditional astrology software - Morinus (google it), calcualte the Almutem Figuris. You can find this option by typing F3. But I should warn you that in that calculation is included some adding of points according to the planets phases. Zoller did not mention any kind of phases calculation so at this moment I'm not aware why the author of the software did included that.

But the best way and more enjoyable is to calculate it with your own hand. You will be familiar with the chart more deeply if you do this calculations with your own hand as the older astrologers did.
And if you must use the Morinus software than subtract the phases scores and you will get the Almutem Figuris right. All else is the same calculation as the Ezra/Zoller method.

Zoller gives short discriptions for every planet being Almutem Figuris:

Sun:
"If the Almuten figuris is the Sun, the native will want to lead, express his creative power and be recognized."

Moon:
"If the Moon, s/he will want to care for, be cared for, eat and make love, dream"

Mercury:
"If it is Mercury, s/he will be diligent in the sciences, business and communications"

Venus:
"Id it is Venus s/he will be a lover of beauty, of music, of men and women etc."

Mars:
"If it is Mars, s/he will fight in order to dominate"

Jupiter:
"If it is Jupiter, s/he will philosophize and teach"

Saturn:
"If it is Saturn he will retire from society, investigate hidden things and suffer adversity.""
 

Arena

Well-known member
Ok, some more reading to do :) ... I guess I must find the Almuten of the chart now ... it might not be the same one... but I guess it is sometimes the same as final dispositor? So it might be the Sun anyway. Have you already guessed which planet is the Almuten in my chart?

I cannot do this before I find the most likely ASC as it uses both the ASC and all the houses in your explanation above.

Well.. I'll do some more reading.
 
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