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Old 07-16-2013, 12:56 PM
Angels Angels is offline
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Horary Analysis--The Basics

Horary Analysis--The Basics

Volumes have been written about horary astrology. The best I can hope to do in the short space I'm allowing myself is to offer some basic guidelines--which basics should, in fact, be enough to get anyone started reading charts.

This lesson gives a method of horary analysis in its broadest strokes. In later lessons, I will elaborate on these guidelines, as well as add the insight of other astrologers whose methods I might not necessarily employ, but who are widely respected and worth trying out.

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http://mithras93.tripod.com/lessons/...1/lesson1.html


Last edited by wintersprite1; 07-18-2013 at 07:01 PM. Reason: Forum rules do not allow for over 100 words from another source
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Old 07-16-2013, 02:09 PM
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Re: Horary Analysis--The Basics

Who is the source of the information that you copied here? It would be good and appropriate to include that citation in the original post.
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Old 07-16-2013, 03:33 PM
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Re: Horary Analysis--The Basics

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Originally Posted by IleneK View Post
Who is the source of the information that you copied here? It would be good and appropriate to include that citation in the original post.
sorry i forgot to paste the link in a rush
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Old 07-17-2013, 06:55 AM
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Re: Horary Analysis--The Basics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angels View Post
Horary Analysis--The Basics
You understand this is like total garbage and most of it's wrong, right?

Quote:
….which basics should, in fact, be enough to get anyone started reading charts.
In order to start reading charts, a thorough knowledge of the Signs is required. Once the Signs are learned, then the meaning of the Houses, and then the significations of the Planets, and then the significations of the aspects, and then all of the little nuances.

The colorful little doo-dad-thingies around the outside of the chart are not there as ornamentation to make the chart look pretty…..they actually mean something….and you need to know what they mean in order to correctly delineate the chart.

Quote:
There remains much debate in horary circles on the subject of "well-it-works-for-me" strategies of analysis. Traditional horary astrologers, especially, eschew (sometimes with the same amusing vehemence with which they deny their own fundamentalism) any technique not espoused by William Lilly, Henry Coley, Bonatus, Ptolemy, and other long-dead astrologers.
“…long-dead astrologers.” I guess it’s a good thing nobody has a beef against long dead mathematicians…..or long dead musicians.....or long dead Hebrew priests.

Quote:
While the contribution of these old astrologers…
"old" --- nope, no bias, prejudice or bigotry displayed here.

Technically, it's a display of bigotry -- bigotry is false beliefs one holds out of sheer ignorance or stupidity.

Quote:
…. it may be prudent to remember that astrology is not a hard science.
That’s another common fallacy proffered by those who haven’t studied Astrology. The “drill-downs” in Traditional Astrology are suspiciously like computer programs..

DO UNTIL X = 5
DO WHILE Y = 12
SELECT CASE X, Y
CASE X = 5, Y = 1
IF Y * X = 9 THEN Y = 3
ELSE IF Y * X = 2 THEN Y = 6
ELSE Y = 1
END IF
*******
END SELECT
LOOP
LOOP

Since we do not know the exact origin of Astrology, we cannot be certain that it wasn’t based entirely on advanced mathematical principles, and therefore a science.

Quote:
The "rules" of the ancients are not scientific laws,….
They are doctrines, which function as laws.

Quote:
… and even they tried out the techniques of their predecessors, and kept what worked and discarded what didn't.
That’s a patently false statement.

Notice no examples are given, because there are none.

A truthful accurate statement would be that over the course of thousands of years, the doctrines for some techniques became corrupted through misunderstanding or erroneous translations, resulting in failures, which resulted in the technique being discarded.

An example would be Body-Guarding. Ptolemy’s technique is clearly for use with a Conception Chart, and not with a Natal Chart. The fact that Ptolemy was using a Conception Chart and not a Natal Chart became unclear over time and through poor translations of the texts, resulting in attempts to use the technique with the Natal Chart, which failed, resulting in Classical Astrologers creating and using an alternative method, which also failed resulting later in Medieval Astrologers creating and using a different alternative method, which failed, causing the technique to be abandoned.

Quote:
Astrology remains largely an art, and as such ought to be subject to the beneficial vagaries of intuition, hunches, and daring
The difference between Science and Art is that Science is self-correcting…..that’s why we study and compare older texts to discover if the rules have become corrupted and try to determine what the original rule was.

Over the years, what I have found to be true is that astrophiles --- people who like Astrology but don’t get it --- and really bad astrologers are the first to run and hide behind the “Astrology is an Art” argument.

They don’t get Astrology; they can’t grasp the concepts; they don’t understand the doctrines; and they don’t know how to apply the rules, and so what they do is point their bony fingers at “the rules” and start chanting “the rules are old” until they start frothing at the mouth and fall over backwards into a ditch.

Since they cannot rise to the level of astrologer, they want to bring everyone down to their level.

Quote:
Some horary astrologers, however, will not even look at a chart unless it has been cast in Regiomontanus (the house system preferred by William Lilly).
I agree, that is silly, and those astrologers probably don’t even understand House Systems, which makes it even more amusing.

Quote:
Such fundamentalism is unnecessary.
Actually it is necessary. Anyone ever wonder why sports have rules?

Quote:
If you pick up a variety of horary astrology books, you will find that the techniques taught in them differ, sometimes only slightly, sometimes a great deal. This is because astrologers find that certain techniques work better for them than others do.
No, it’s because they don’t understand the techniques or how to apply them.

Quote:
Experience, built on an appreciation for and understanding of the best the tradition has to offer, will show you what works best for your style of analysis.
That’s another cop-out lame argument made by pseudo-astrologers.

For those who doubt or demand proof, I give you……Music.

Music doesn’t have rules? Oh, yes it most certainly does…..and the rules are, um, you know, “old.” The funny thing is that I don't see people rushing and in a huff to the toss out the rules of music...."old" as they might be.

Major Chord is what? 1-3-5 right?

If our Tonic is “C” then, if we make the Tonic the Root, then…

1 = C
3 = E
5 = G

And that is a C Major Chord folks.

The first inversion is what under the rules?

3 = E
5 = G
1 = C

The ‘C’ is still the Tonic, all we’ve done is make ‘E’ the Root.

The second inversion is what under the rules?

5 = G
1 = C
3 = E

The ‘C’ is still the Tonic, all we’ve done is make the ‘G’ the Root.

And what is the rule for Minor Chords? We flat the 3rd…1-b3-5

1 = C
3 = Eb
5 = G

And what is the rule for 7th Chords? We add the 7th…1-3-5-7

1 = C
3 = E
5 = G
7 = Bb

And what is the rule for Minor 7th Chords? We add the 7th and flat the 3rd…1-b3-5-7

1 = C
3 = Eb
5 = G
7 = Bb

Funny…..all those “old” rules and yet Music is so expressive and individually stylized.

I mention that to demonstrate that your friend at mixedup.trippedout.com is totally bereft of any imagination.

Quote:
1. Asking the Question & Casting the Chart. Virtually any question can be answered by horary astrology.
That is false.

Yes, you’re certainly free to waste your time asking frivolous questions, but the fact that you can ask, does not entitle you to a right to know the answer.

How many friggin’ times do I have to say "Super Bowl?" 'World Cup?" "Stanley Cup?" "Olympics?"

Go look at the Horary Charts on the web. Sure, some of the charts are non-Radical, but for those that were Radical, the astrologers read those charts correctly….so then why does Astrology predict two different winners? That’s a failure of Astrology….no, that is an affirmation of Astrology.

You do not have a right to ask any question just because you wanna know. You do not have the right to meddle in the affairs of others, or to interfere, and you cannot cheat Fate.

If Horary Astrology worked, then everyone would be rich.”

No, you can only be rich if your Natal Chart says you can be rich….and if it doesn’t, then you can ask 50 Million Horary questions and you’ll be none the richer (or wiser).

Quote:
Finally, ask the question only once, unless circumstance have changed considerably, and the situation warrants another chart.
That’s a fail.

Only an incompetent astrologer would claim that circumstances could change considerably.

When you cast a chart, that’s it, game over, the deed is done. Everything you need to know is in that chart. And if there are Fixed Signs on the Angles, then that chart will tell you everything that will happen for the next 1-3 years (Primary Significators early in the Signs then 3 years, but if later in the Signs 1 year and judge accordingly if middling).

The whole purpose of reading an Horary Chart is to determine exactly what the circumstances are and how they will play out

Quote:
If you cast a chart, don't like the answer, cast another chart for the same question, and like the answer . . . the first chart remains the only valid one.
Wow, finally got something right. I almost fell out of my chair.

Quote:
The querent is always ruled by the first house.
That is wrong. The Querent gets the 1st House if and only if the Querent is the True Querent….meaning the Querent has authority to ask the question.

Example: Is my girlfriend pregnant? or Is my friend going to get a divorce?

With authority, the Querent is the 1st House....without authority, the Querent is the 7th House.

Quote:
The Moon is considered a co-ruler of the querent.
That is wrong.

The Moon is a co-significator of the Querent.

I must say, the inability to distinguish between a significator and a ruler doesn’t impress me at all.

In every single chart, Jupiter is always a Significator of Wealth….but Jupiter is not necessarily the Significator of Wealth, because the Significator of Wealth is the Planet that rules the 2nd Sign/House.

It is of course possible for Jupiter to be a Significator of Wealth and simultaneously the Significator of Wealth, and that would happen when Sagittarius or Pisces are the 2nd Sign/House.

But if Saturn rules the 2nd, then Saturn is the Primary Significator & Ruler of Wealth and Jupiter is a co-significator.

Geez, with tutorials like that, no wonder people can't read Horary Charts.

Quote:
If Libra is rising, and the Sun and Mercury are in the first house, then the querent is ruled first by Venus, then by the Moon, Sun, and Mercury. In some cases it may be more useful to use a co-ruler to rule the querent, such as when the same planet rules the sign on the cusp of the querent and the quesited.
That’s wrong. Follow that if you want to ride the Fail Boat.

Quote:
Questions about money & possessions are assigned to the 2nd house…
Only if those possessions are moveable.

Quote:
3. Are There Any Strictures Against Judgment? Strictures are conditions within a chart restricting its interpration. Traditionally, charts were not to be read if they contained certain strictures. In my own experience, I have found that while strictures may make interpretation difficult, they don't necessarily prohibit it; often, they merely warn the astrologer to proceed with great care.
That’s wrong.

That’s what happens when people who don’t have a clue start running their mouths.

Quote:
Here are "Lilly's Considerations Before Judgment."
Do the Ascendant Ruler and Planetary Hour Match? Lilly says the ruler of the hour at the time the question is proposed must be the same as the ruler of the Ascendant, or of the same triplicity or nature.
This is the first thing done once a chart is cast. Identify the Hour Ruler then determine if the chart is Radical.

A non-Radical Chart cannot be read.

Quote:
Less than 3 Degrees Rising Lilly warns against judging a chart with 0 - 3 degrees rising, unless the seeker is very young, and his physical charateristic "agree with the quality of the sign ascending." Early degrees may also signify that the matter in question is too premature to judge.
That’s wrong.

Lily made that up, because he didn’t understand the concept. The early degrees….all of them….and there are 10 early degrees….0° to 9°

Incompetent astrologers always seize on this false rule to hide their incompetence. You can most certainly read the chart……and if you read Lily, you’ll see that Lily reads charts with 2° and 3° rising.

Quote:
More than 27 Degrees Rising. "It's no wayes safe to give judgment, except the Querent be in yeers corresponding to the number of degrees ascending; or unlesse the Figure be set upon a certain time, viz. a man went away or fled at such a time precise . . ." In other words, you may safely judge a chart with late degrees rising if the time of the chart corresponds to an actual event that you are judging. Late degrees may also signify that the question has been asked too late, that conditions have changed making the question obsolete.
That’s wrong.

Lily made that up because he didn’t understand the concept. The late degrees are 20° to 29°59’ and you most certainly can judge the chart, because Lily judged charts with Ascendants at 27° and 28°.

If you read the chart, then you’ll know why the Question was asked too late.

Quote:
Where is the Moon? According to Lilly, a chart is not safe to judge when the Moon is in the later degrees of a sign, especially Gemini, Scorpio, and Capricorn.
The chart is also not safe to judge when the Moon is in the Via Combusta, or "Fiery Way," which lies from 15 degrees Libra to 15 degress Scorpio.
That’s wrong.

And, why, yes, Lily judged those charts.

Quote:
I tend to favor Lilly's definition because I have not found that a VOC Moon by the modern definition necessarily disqualifies a chart.
The modern definition is wrong, and a VOC Moon never disqualifies a chart.

Incompetent astrologers claim that because they don’t actually know how to read charts. The only thing they know how to do is look at aspects between significators (I can teach a monkey to do that), and they can’t even do that right.

Quote:
As already noted, "Saturn in the seventh either corrupts the judgment of the Astrologer, or is a Sign the matter propounded will come from one misfortune to another." Thus spake Lilly.
That’s wrong.

Lily muffed that, too. Saturn in the 7th (and the 7th is not Libra, Capricorn or Aquarius) means that the astrologer is not fit to judge the chart, because the astrologer lacks knowledge or understanding of the matter; because the Querent is deceitful; or because the Querent has misunderstood the situation and asked the wrong question.

Quote:
A planet is combust when it is:
in the same sign as the Sun, and
That’s wrong.

Combustion has nothing to do with Signs.

Quote:
I do use these means to validate charts, but generally, I look at the chart as whole to see if it describes the situation in some way. Particularly, I look to see if the lights (Sun and Moon) reside in houses pertinent to the question, or if the Moon's separating aspects somehow describe some recent event. Also, do the houses with the signs ruled by the lights (Cancer and Leo) have something to do with the question?
That’s wrong Deleted by moderator
Quote:
Probably the first thing to note is that there are two obvious strictures against judgment. First, the Ascendant is within the last 3 degrees of the sign,…
So? That is merely an advisory to the astrologer that the Querent already knows the answer and is asking out of desperation.

Quote:
Ivy Goldstein-Jacobson regarded some degrees as critical, among them, 29 degrees of any sign. About this, she writes, "The 29th degree shows some misfortune connected with the matter: The person or matter asked about is changing, at the end of his rope or patience, or desperate."
What? Are you kidding? That’s the great Ivy Goldstein-Jacobson I been hearing about until I want to vomit on other people’s shoes?

Uh, let’s look at the “old rules” of Traditional Astrology.

29° Aries Dark Degree
29° Taurus Dark Degree
29° Gemini Empty Pitted Degree
29° Cancer Empty Pitted Degree
29° Leo Bright Degree
29° Virgo Dark Degree
29° Libra Empty Pitted Degree
29° Scorpio Dark Degree
29° Sagittarius Pitted Degree
29° Capricorn Bright Degree
29° Aquarius Bright Degree
29° Pisces Dark Degree

Gosh, 12 Signs and 9 of them are Dark or Empty or Pitted or both Pitted and Dark/Empty Degrees, which harms a Planet (unless it happens to be well-situated with Benefics).

That might have something to do with it…ya think?

So….Ivy League Gold-Diggerstein is a fraud……she wants you to believe that she came up with this very thought-provoking view of late degrees all by her brilliant little self, when actually all she was doing was regurgitating “old rules” from Traditional Astrology (that she didn't understand)….and then failed to cite the source.

Quote:
Guido Bonatus, and ancient astrologer, regarded early- and late-degree Ascendants as an indication of the seeker's insincerity: that the seeker was only trying to test the astrologer.
Gee, another who doesn't understand what they read. What Bonatti actually said was..

“And likewise beware lest he who asks should come to you with the purpose of testing or deceiving you, as certain people tend to do, or that he doe not have the question in his heart for a day and a night, just as was said elsewhere (if you remember it well).”

Bonatti was talking about frivolous questions, not early or late Ascendants.

Quote:
This was a difficult chart to judge.
For a Novice, I’m sure it was.

Quote:
5. The Moon is A Co-Ruler.
Co-significator…I already explained the difference.

Quote:
If the chart is radical, and there are no major positive or negative aspects, look for other positive or negative indicators, such as significant planets conjunct strongly positive or negative degrees, or fixed stars, or malefics rising (see below).
That’s wrong, too. There’s a reason why aspects are necessary.

Anyway, for those who have no desire to fail at Horary, then that is a web-site to avoid.
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Last edited by wintersprite1; 07-18-2013 at 06:55 PM. Reason: insultive
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  #5  
Old 07-17-2013, 12:01 PM
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JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
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Re: Horary Analysis--The Basics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angels View Post
Mr bob thats amazing!

now should i delete the post?
Just my opinion that members may be interested to read the original information you posted Angels, just to compare it with the comments BobZemco then made in response - remember that ours is a learning forum

- some may have comments to make as well.

Discussion is important and interesting and I've selected from the detailed post, specifics that I find useful to quote below

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobZemco View Post
In order to start reading charts, a thorough knowledge of the Signs is required. Once the Signs are learned, then the meaning of the Houses, and then the significations of the Planets, and then the significations of the aspects, and then all of the little nuances.

The colorful little doo-dad-thingies around the outside of the chart are not there as ornamentation to make the chart look pretty…..they actually mean something….and you need to know what they mean in order to correctly delineate the chart.

“…long-dead astrologers.” I guess it’s a good thing nobody has a beef against long dead mathematicians…..or long dead musicians.....or long dead Hebrew priests.

Since we do not know the exact origin of Astrology, we cannot be certain that it wasn’t based entirely on advanced mathematical principles, and therefore a science.

A truthful accurate statement would be that over the course of thousands of years, the doctrines for some techniques became corrupted through misunderstanding or erroneous translations, resulting in failures, which resulted in the technique being discarded.

An example would be Body-Guarding. Ptolemy’s technique is clearly for use with a Conception Chart, and not with a Natal Chart. The fact that Ptolemy was using a Conception Chart and not a Natal Chart became unclear over time and through poor translations of the texts, resulting in attempts to use the technique with the Natal Chart, which failed, resulting in Classical Astrologers creating and using an alternative method, which also failed resulting later in Medieval Astrologers creating and using a different alternative method, which failed, causing the technique to be abandoned.

The difference between Science and Art is that Science is self-correcting…..that’s why we study and compare older texts to discover if the rules have become corrupted and try to determine what the original rule was.

For those who doubt or demand proof, I give you……Music.

Music doesn’t have rules? Oh, yes it most certainly does…..and the rules are, um, you know, “old.” The funny thing is that I don't see people rushing and in a huff to the toss out the rules of music...."old" as they might be.

Funny…..all those “old” rules and yet Music is so expressive and individually stylized.

Yes, you’re certainly free to waste your time asking frivolous questions, but the fact that you can ask, does not entitle you to a right to know the answer.

Go look at the Horary Charts on the web. Sure, some of the charts are non-Radical, but for those that were Radical, the astrologers read those charts correctly….so then why does Astrology predict two different winners? That’s a failure of Astrology….no, that is an affirmation of Astrology.

You do not have a right to ask any question just because you wanna know. You do not have the right to meddle in the affairs of others, or to interfere, and you cannot cheat Fate.

If Horary Astrology worked, then everyone would be rich.”

No, you can only be rich if your Natal Chart says you can be rich….and if it doesn’t, then you can ask 50 Million Horary questions and you’ll be none the richer (or wiser).

When you cast a chart, that’s it, game over, the deed is done. Everything you need to know is in that chart. And if there are Fixed Signs on the Angles, then that chart will tell you everything that will happen for the next 1-3 years (Primary Significators early in the Signs then 3 years, but if later in the Signs 1 year and judge accordingly if middling).

The whole purpose of reading an Horary Chart is to determine exactly what the circumstances are and how they will play out



The Querent gets the 1st House if and only if the Querent is the True Querent….meaning the Querent has authority to ask the question.

Example: Is my girlfriend pregnant? or Is my friend going to get a divorce?

With authority, the Querent is the 1st House....without authority, the Querent is the 7th House.

The Moon is a co-significator of the Querent.

I must say, the inability to distinguish between a significator and a ruler doesn’t impress me at all.

In every single chart, Jupiter is always a Significator of Wealth….but Jupiter is not necessarily the Significator of Wealth, because the Significator of Wealth is the Planet that rules the 2nd Sign/House.

It is of course possible for Jupiter to be a Significator of Wealth and simultaneously the Significator of Wealth, and that would happen when Sagittarius or Pisces are the 2nd Sign/House.

But if Saturn rules the 2nd, then Saturn is the Primary Significator & Ruler of Wealth and Jupiter is a co-significator.

This is the first thing done once a chart is cast. Identify the Hour Ruler then determine if the chart is Radical.

A non-Radical Chart cannot be read.

That’s wrong.

Lily made that up, because he didn’t understand the concept. The early degrees….all of them….and there are 10 early degrees….0° to 9°

Incompetent astrologers always seize on this false rule to hide their incompetence. You can most certainly read the chart……and if you read Lily, you’ll see that Lily reads charts with 2° and 3° rising.

Lily made that up because he didn’t understand the concept. The late degrees are 20° to 29°59’ and you most certainly can judge the chart, because Lily judged charts with Ascendants at 27° and 28°.

The modern definition is wrong, and a VOC Moon never disqualifies a chart.

Lily muffed that, too. Saturn in the 7th (and the 7th is not Libra, Capricorn or Aquarius) means that the astrologer is not fit to judge the chart, because the astrologer lacks knowledge or understanding of the matter; because the Querent is deceitful; or because the Querent has misunderstood the situation and asked the wrong question.

Combustion has nothing to do with Signs.


Uh, let’s look at the “old rules” of Traditional Astrology.

29° Aries Dark Degree
29° Taurus Dark Degree
29° Gemini Empty Pitted Degree
29° Cancer Empty Pitted Degree
29° Leo Bright Degree
29° Virgo Dark Degree
29° Libra Empty Pitted Degree
29° Scorpio Dark Degree
29° Sagittarius Pitted Degree
29° Capricorn Bright Degree
29° Aquarius Bright Degree
29° Pisces Dark Degree

Gosh, 12 Signs and 9 of them are Dark or Empty or Pitted or both Pitted and Dark/Empty Degrees, which harms a Planet (unless it happens to be well-situated with Benefics).

That might have something to do with it…ya think?

So….Ivy League Gold-Diggerstein is a fraud……she wants you to believe that she came up with this very thought-provoking view of late degrees all by her brilliant little self, when actually all she was doing was regurgitating “old rules” from Traditional Astrology (that she didn't understand)….and then failed to cite the source.

What Bonatti actually said was..

“And likewise beware lest he who asks should come to you with the purpose of testing or deceiving you, as certain people tend to do, or that he doe not have the question in his heart for a day and a night, just as was said elsewhere (if you remember it well).”

Bonatti was talking about frivolous questions, not early or late Ascendants.

There’s a reason why aspects are necessary.

Anyway, for those who have no desire to fail at Horary, then that is a web-site to avoid.
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  #6  
Old 07-17-2013, 02:06 PM
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Re: Horary Analysis--The Basics

Lol at Bob, you're pretty harsh but your scathing critique was pretty funny in places.

That said I'm not always sure it's the best way for others to learn, but then maybe it's not really your focus or concern anyway. I do think it needed a critique though.

Don't have time for a proper reply as I'm just replying from the airport and about to catch a flight.
I don't know who this source is but just wanted to comment on a few things. Regarding the strictures against judgement idea, anyone know who first came up with this? Did Ivy Gj? I've never read her in full.

Regarding the Moon as co-significator, my advice would be to see it more generally as representing the focus of the horary, normally co-signifying the querent, but that's not always its focus. Sometimes it better co-signifies the quesited, particularly in missing item horaries for example.

As for the void of course moon...it's probably best not to open that can of worms.

Quote:
According to William Lilly, , "If the Lord of the Ascendant be combust, neither the question propounded will take, nor the querent be regulated." In other words, the matter the seeker hopes for will not come to pass, and/or he will remain unsatisfied.
Actually it would be better to render this as "the querent won't be in a mindset to receive your council".

Regarding combustion, I'm glad that Bob cleared this up regarding being placed in a sign.
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Old 07-17-2013, 05:01 PM
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Re: Horary Analysis--The Basics

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobZemco
The difference between Science and Art is that Science is self-correcting…..that’s why we study and compare older texts to discover if the rules have become corrupted and try to determine what the original rule was.

Over the years, what I have found to be true is that astrophiles --- people who like Astrology but don’t get it --- and really bad astrologers are the first to run and hide behind the “Astrology is an Art” argument.

They don’t get Astrology; they can’t grasp the concepts; they don’t understand the doctrines; and they don’t know how to apply the rules, and so what they do is point their bony fingers at “the rules” and start chanting “the rules are old” until they start frothing at the mouth and fall over backwards into a ditch.

Since they cannot rise to the level of astrologer, they want to bring everyone down to their level.
This sort of plays into the larger argument on whether astrology is a science or an art and the problem is that it sits comfortably inbetween. This is why we have issues like comparing what Lilly (or any astrologer really) said versus what they actually did in charts.

You yourself bring this up a little later when the OP posted that Lilly says it's not safe to judge charts with the Moon at later degrees in Gemini, Scorpio, and Capricorn or while in the Via Combusta and you responded that Lilly judged those charts anyway.

Of course he did, but he did also give that rule. So we have the rule introduced, but it's immediately broken. Why? Well, while it may be a rule, there are clearly exceptions to it. Perhaps when charts are so obviously one way or another the Moon being there isn't going to change anything, or maybe it's a rule that Lilly himself didn't like or follow but he needed to include for posterity, we don't know.

While there are clearly rules to follow, there are also cases where we don't have to follow them all or they don't fit within the context of what a chart is telling us.


Quote:
No, it’s because they don’t understand the techniques or how to apply them.
No, that's not it. They just disagree on particulars.

Oh, and I'm not talking about anyone writing after say...1680.

There are things that Bonatti does differently from Mashallah and there are things that Lilly does differently from Bonatti. I wouldn't say they don't understand why they're differentiating or what the original point was, but there is clearly something they didn't like about it.

Whether they had a right to do so or if their ideas were actually any better than their predecessors is a totally different argument though. :/


Quote:
That is wrong. The Querent gets the 1st House if and only if the Querent is the True Querent….meaning the Querent has authority to ask the question.

Example: Is my girlfriend pregnant? or Is my friend going to get a divorce?

With authority, the Querent is the 1st House....without authority, the Querent is the 7th House.
"Without authority" I would argue the querent has no right to even ask the question so what house they would be signified by is irrelevent.


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This is the first thing done once a chart is cast. Identify the Hour Ruler then determine if the chart is Radical.

A non-Radical Chart cannot be read.
CA Pg. 152, 177, 219 (don't laugh), 238, 385, 390, 395, 397, 401, 417, 468, and 470. None of the charts previously listed have an hour lord/Ascn sign match. Hopefully anyway, I went through them rather quickly.


Quote:
That’s wrong.

Lily made that up, because he didn’t understand the concept. The early degrees….all of them….and there are 10 early degrees….0° to 9°
Lilly didn't make them up, but he may have been the first to define what exactly early and late ascendants were.

Quote:
That’s wrong.

Lily made that up because he didn’t understand the concept. The late degrees are 20° to 29°59’ and you most certainly can judge the chart, because Lily judged charts with Ascendants at 27° and 28°.
Lilly also did not make this up, but, again, may have been the first to define when an Ascendant was "late". It's also untrue that Lilly read charts with Ascendants later than 27°, of the 40+ charts included in Christian Astrology, the latest Ascendant is 26°.

Quote:
That’s wrong.

Lily muffed that, too. Saturn in the 7th (and the 7th is not Libra, Capricorn or Aquarius) means that the astrologer is not fit to judge the chart, because the astrologer lacks knowledge or understanding of the matter; because the Querent is deceitful; or because the Querent has misunderstood the situation and asked the wrong question.
This is basically what Lilly was saying...so I'm not sure how it qualifies as incorrect.

Quote:
Gee, another who doesn't understand what they read. What Bonatti actually said was..

“And likewise beware lest he who asks should come to you with the purpose of testing or deceiving you, as certain people tend to do, or that he doe not have the question in his heart for a day and a night, just as was said elsewhere (if you remember it well).”

Bonatti was talking about frivolous questions, not early or late Ascendants.
Actually, what Bonatti really said about this was...

"... but this I have often experienced and found true, viz., I observed the hour of the Question, and if the Ascendant then happened very near the end of one sign and beginning of another, so that it seemed as between both; I said they did not ask seriously, or that they came to try me; and I have had many that have there upon confessed what I said to be true, and began to think that I knew more than before they believed."

So he is clearly discussing early and late ascendants in regards to the sincerity of a question. He just doesn't define what qualifes as a late or early degree. Presumably this is where Lilly came in and defined it for him.
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Old 07-19-2013, 05:04 AM
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Re: Horary Analysis--The Basics

When we cast an horary chart and we have a positive question, what is the time frame of the answer? For example, will i buy that bracelet and the answer is a Yes, is coming to near future (few months, days, hours) or distance future (5-6 months or even year or years)?
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Old 07-19-2013, 05:29 AM
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Re: Horary Analysis--The Basics

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When we cast an horary chart and we have a positive question, what is the time frame of the answer? For example, will i buy that bracelet and the answer is a Yes, is coming to near future (few months, days, hours) or distance future (5-6 months or even year or years)?
There are timing techniques you can utilize to give you this information, but I'm not sure why you would ask a question like that since it's something that is completely under the querent's control. If it was something more like "When will I be financially able to purchase X" I can see it, but otherwise it just comes off as one of those frivolous, unimportant questions.
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Old 07-19-2013, 05:39 AM
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Re: Horary Analysis--The Basics

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Originally Posted by Kaiousei no Senshi View Post
There are timing techniques you can utilize to give you this information, but I'm not sure why you would ask a question like that since it's something that is completely under the querent's control. If it was something more like "When will I be financially able to purchase X" I can see it, but otherwise it just comes off as one of those frivolous, unimportant questions.
Kai that was an examble!! I'm not asking anything like that. I ask: Horary gives short term answers (near future) only?
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Old 07-19-2013, 06:28 AM
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Re: Horary Analysis--The Basics

There are various opinions about the time period horary can be valid for: usually the consensus is that horary "works best" for relatively short term periods, however the history is full of examples of horary relating to time periods of several years, sometimes even longer. Pretty much the "ever" type of question will not in fact cover "forever" (although there are a few enthusiasts who will allow "ever" questions).

In my opinion, horary seems (in my experience) to work well for short to intermediate time frames (up to a couple of years or so), which is also my experience with such divinatory methods as Tarot and I Ching as well...
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Old 07-19-2013, 10:47 PM
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Re: Horary Analysis--The Basics

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Don't have time for a proper reply as I'm just replying from the airport and about to catch a flight.
Happy landings... safe journey Paul - wishing you fair winds and starry skies
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Old 07-20-2013, 03:26 AM
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Re: Horary Analysis--The Basics

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Originally Posted by DreamingtheSeas
Kai that was an examble!! I'm not asking anything like that. I ask: Horary gives short term answers (near future) only?
I apologize. My mistake!

No, horary isn't only good for short term difficulties or near future events. It can also answer questions on an indefinite time scale. These aren't as prevalent question types since the answers can be pretty disheartening, but there are some examples floating around, such as Lilly's "If a Querent Should Ever Have Children; A Figure Judged Thereof".
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