Astrology Vs Christianity

[Summery Joy]

Hello everyone,

Here's an issue that has been bothering me for a while; is astrology in any way against Christianity?

I'm a believer. I'm a Coptic Orthodox Christian to be specific. When I started learning astrology, I didn't even think of how to relate it to my faith and what my Church would think about it. Recently though, many of my Christian friends have started criticising me for how into astrology I am. They say it's against the Bible and all Christian faith. My gutts instinct... I don't buy it, but the problem is I don't know if they are right or wrong coz I am no expert in either subject.

See, the Bible has many, many verses telling the believer to use what God has offered. Some of these verses even refer to the stars in Heaven. I find this very much pro astrology. But the Bible is also against any form of prediction or divination, and this is against astrology.

I don't know what to think anymore and this issue matters very much to me. I have decided to continue studying astrology until it proves against the teachintgs of my Church. But I've also decided to objectively research this whole issue.

I need your opinions and help here. But I'm asking for an objective discussion. I don't think passionate, inobjective asnwers (be they pro or against) will be very helpful. Also, I'm mainly asking about Christianity because this is what matters to me, but I don't mind learning what other religions have to say about the matter.

OK. Here we go. I really pray that God will let His words into this thread one way or another.

[Theo]

Dear Sorehearted.

In no way is astrology against Christianity - in fact, astrology has been at the core of Chritianity, Hebrew, and Islamic thought for centuries.

Many who question or believe that "astrology" is somehow against God are just plain wrong, and quite ignorant of religious history. You would be better off to guide them to read and study texts that show without a doubt that astrology is the study of the stars and planets as regulated by God the Creator.

Also, the Bible is against the use of "magic" and that does not include astrology as practiced classically - called Judicial Astrology. In fact, Christ himself practiced it and furthermore, the three Magi, or Judicial Astrologers who sought out the infant Christ - the Three Wise Men - were astrologers.

The construction of the texts "allowed" to be in the Bible - the 66 books that include the Old Testament and the Gospels, the New Testament, were edited in at the Council of Nicea - which left out many, many religious texts such as the writings of Christ's disciples, among them Thomas, and Mary Magedelan. These texts are among those found before and after the Dead Sea Scrolls that have many, many astrological statements made by Christ.

One such text, called the "Pistis Sophia" is rich in astrological language, but the Church officials, who once prevented Europeans from even reading the Bible of the Middle Ages, themselves had astrologers working for them. Several Popes were astrologers.

But, the Church as a whole, were negative on allowing this "sacred knowledge" to be public. This was taking place during the time of the Islamic Age and the spread of science and knowledge throughout the known world at the time.

But, in Europe, it was known as the "Dark Ages."

Jesuit, and Benedictine monks practiced astrology along with the piety of the Church and Europe is full of astrological symbols in its churches.

So, those who claim that astrology is against God and use what they think are quotes from the Bible stating this are wrong. How can a book like the Bible, which is full of predictive divinations be against it?

Ask those who would question this about all the prophecies in the Bible. What about the Book of Revelation? Is this not predictive?

Michael Scott, the personal astrologer of Frederick II, and the most studied of his time once wrote that "Every astrologer is worthy of praise and honor... since by such a doctrine as astrology he probably knows many secrets of God and things which few people know."

[Summery Joy]

Do you know of such texts? I don't.

[Theo]

There are many such texts -

The Secrets of the Book of Enoch
The Book of Thomas the Contender
The Pistis Sophia

and many, many more.

The thing is that most people just don't want to think for themselves. Astrology - to them - is "sun-sign" entertainment astrology - which is not true astrology and the small mind stops there.

But, it does not take a detective to find and read such texts above and I even doubt that many have even really read the Bible through and through because of the astrological references within the Bible.

I think the confusion about astrology comes from just plain ignorance. People "assume" that astrology means that there is no free will - when this is not the case at all. But, they also think that they are completely free to do whatever they want - and this is not the case. The universe has rules and we live within those rules. You cannot stop it from raining, for example, but you can dress for the weather enough not to become totally wet. You use your free will and dress for the rain.

In this manner, this is how the transits work on and around and in the world we all live in, but people have to do their own work, and frankly, some just do not want to do this but would rather have others "think" for them while spewing out given lines such as astrology is against Christianity - clearly, these people have not read the history of Christianity, for if they did, they probably would not be Christians due to the practice of astrology of the first Christians.

Go on the web and find these texts. They are there for all to read...

[Waterbearer50]

Sorehearted,

I've been trying to reconcile Christianity and Astrology for some time now. Those of us who embrace both seem to be

attacked by both groups. The Christian side with their rejection and/or condemnation of all things Astrological, and the

"New Agers" who will use words like "Christ consciousness" but deny the Being of the greatest living example of it.

As Theo has written very eloquently, Astrology has always been in Christianity, and in my opinion Christ can have a place in Astrology. As long as one worships The Creator and not the creation one is on the right path.

One can be both a Christian and a student of Astrology. When I look at my chart I see Pluto in Leo, learning to live in

my Heart, to radiate a love that can be healing. Right now Neptune is transiting Aquarius, conjunct my Jup./Sun/Venus

conjunction, directly opposite Pluto. All of this working in me to awaken me to Universal Love and Brotherhood, to try to

live this daily. This I learn from Astrology. What do I learn from Christianity(true Christianity)? To Love others as I love

myself, To Love God, the Creator of everything I see when I look up and look in. To me we can learn so much from

both. The study of Astrology gives me an understanding of myself and others that I cannot find in the Bible and the

study of the Bible contains instructions and directions of how to live a life In The Spirit that I cannot find in Astrology. I

need both and will continue to study both, so help me God.

I thank you very much for starting this thread about something that really needs to be bought into the light and

discussed, let's keep it going,


From the Heart,

WB50

[Lapis]

Firstly, welcome Theo, and glad you're here. Great posts filled with correct and very gentle wisdoms.

I agree with Waterbearer50 that this is a subject that needs to be brought out into the Light finally and discussed on neutral ground. Waterbearer50 and I started to have this type of discussion privately but I'm glad it can be done here so others can comment also. The seeming contradictions/conflicts between certain past religious beliefs and most ancient 'esoteric' wisdom teachings is no doubt inevitable, and as humanity straddles the Cusp of Ages most of us must finally come to terms with many old limiting Piscean Age belief systems.

Here's a quote I like a lot and have used as one of my 'sig lines' before. It speaks for itself......

"Those who do not think to think are easily manipulated."

For most of this past Age of Pisces (and beyond) the handful of people who've controlled this planet have directed humanity in what to think and believe. They've controlled, manipulated, and carefully directed most everything everywhere all the while using not only Astrology themselves but numerous other so-called ancient 'Occult' wisdoms and knowledge. It still is happening today.

One of the main ways that humanity has been carefully 'herded' by these controllers is through different belief systems, obviously. We're told that certain things are 'evil' or 'dangerous' or 'of the devil' etc. etc. and for the most part everyone believed and trusted what its been told by these leaders for thousands of years. But, with the huge changes humanity and Earth have recently and continue to be going through today, this is finally changing. We're growing up and learning how to think and create for ourselves, discern truths and discern lies through our inner hearts and guts. When people can do this, it becomes utterly impossible to be controlled by anyone or any group anywhere.

When you're a child you need to be taught, given guidlines and directions to help keep you safe. As you grow and evolve in all ways, especially spiritually, you must learn how to discover 'truths' on your own like an adult and this is IMO, precisely where mass humanity is right now! Transitioning into spiritual adulthood where it must discern all things on it own. It can't continue on into expanded states/realities/consciousness/energies unless it (humanity) can honestly, instantly, individually, discern what's what and who's who and so on. Otherwise it just may be true that the "meek shall inherit the Earth".

Theo wisely said.....
"The thing is that most people just don't want to think for themselves. Astrology-to them-is "sun sign" entertainment astrology-which is not true astrology and the small mind stops there." So true......and with little effort these directors of humanity insert some 'disinformation' here and there to disempower numerous different wisdoms that would help to liberate humanity if left on its own. Astrology is only one of many of these ancient wisdoms that's been constantly used by the same controlling groups telling the rest of us that it's 'evil' and 'foolish' etc. Here's another quote that I like a lot and is highly telling....

"It's Light that forgot and Dark that remembered."

Also let's clarify this term "New Agers" because this too has hidden levels of twisted silly **** in it like so much else. Boy, can you feel the tests coming with this thread???

[Waterbearer50]

When I wrote:

" "New Agers" who will use words like "Christ consciousness" but deny the Being of the greatest living example of it."

I was not impugning all those who believe in the coming of a "New Age",I

was talking of fellow Astrologers,Channelers,

and others who profess that a " New Age" is coming, who specifically use

the phrase "Christ Consciousness" to

describe a state of being, yet the way and philosophy they describe has

nothing to do with "Christ". They decieve either

by intent or through ignorance. People can believe what they wish, free

will is here for all to use, I just take exception to

them using this phrase while at the same time rejecting those who try to

practice Christianity to achieve real "Christ Consciousness".

Trying to keep this debate" heart to heart",

WB50

[Kite]

I believe both the old and new testament contain some verses referring to visions of a 4-headed beast. One head is that of an eagle (scorpio) another is that of a bull (Taurus), another that of a Lion (Leo) and the other that of a man (Aquarius). Parenthesis mine.

This wheel they speak of marks shifts of the ages in my opinion of when the events in these verses are supposed to manifest.

I'm sure there are other veiled references to astrology in the bible and Gematria, which is the numerology of Hebrew letters is a science used by Jewish and Christian scholars alike to find relationships between words.

[Summery Joy]

Thank you all for your insights.

Theo, I don't recognize the names of the texts you mentioned. Are they Biblical apocrypha? I'm Orthodox and my Church includes 10 apocrypha books in our version of the Bible, but these aren't among them. If they aren't Biblical texts, then what are they?

Lapis, your post was too sophisticated fo me. I didnt understand even one tenth of it ops: For instance, I don't know what the Age of the Aquarius is. I've been meaning to research it but never did. And of course, I know nothing about the Age of the Pisces. Could you simplify what you said please?

Waterbearer, I've been having problems with the Term "New Age" ever since I heard it a few years back. My first language isn't English and I constantly have trouble understanding terms that seem to relate to the occidental cultures. I don't know if "New Age" is one of them. I've heard about "New Age Music" and never understood what it meant. So, I need you to explain how the way you have used it in your post is different from what people may have understood.

Kite,this is the first time I hear that theory about the four headed beast. I never thought it had any astrological significance whatsoever. Did you come up with it or is it common knowledge? And.. I understand the other three heads symbols, but how is Scoprio represented by the head of the eagle?

Also, you guys, none of you has said anything about divination in astrology. I know that any sort of divination or profitizing (is this a word?) is not accpeted by Christianity unless it's from the Holy Spirit. It's a huge point that I cannot settle by myself.

It's so frustrating that I cannot ask Church priests about this because they know nothing of astrology although they would be most helpful if they were just a little bit open minded.

[Kite]

Sorehearted - it is esoteric knowledge (knowledge of the few). The eagle represents the higher consciousness aspect of Scorpio (somewhat like the Phoenix rising out of the ashes).

[Kite]

As far as the prohibitions against divination, it create quite a conundrum for Christianity. All the prohibitions I have found come from the old testament. http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?...3:5&version=49

If the Old testament prohibits all this soothsaying, then the whole Star of Bethlaham premise should have been ignored as biblicaly prohibited sorcery. Who would care what 3 astrologers from Babylon would have said? All the founding Christians were Jews so they in essence rewrote their own rules by adopting the 3 Magi into the story.

For a critical analysis of what may have helped shape the Gospels, see http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/Laura...ost_gospel.htm

[Theo]

Sorehearted,

You are going to have to also think for yourself and reconcile your own questions with true study. The texts I mentioned can easily be found by doing a Web search. Read them along with the texts of the Holy Scriptures.

No one is going to be able to convince you - only "guide" - and the rest is up to you. Asking questions is helpful, but no one can do the sutdy but yourself.

Another matter is that you are having to reconcile your feelings and teachings of the Church with questions obtained through serious study.

[Summery Joy]

Thanks for your reply Kite. I have a lot to learn, huh?

Theo, I agree with you. All I'm looking for really is guidance, but the problem is am no expert neither at Church matters nor astrology, so I'm looking for guidance in both areas. I know this matter is going to take me a long time to fully research and reconcile. But I will do whatever it takes and I believe I will get there.

I'm still looking for answers regarding the divination issue. Any insights?

[Summery Joy]

Oops. Hadn't seen Kite's post about divination there.

I'll check out the link and get back to you again, Kite.

[Elianah]

Hi everyone,

Just wanted to share a few thoughts on this topic. Beware, this is very long. :shock:

When I look at the verse from Leviticus (19:26) in Hebrew, these are the things I notice:

1) There is a beginning clause in the verse that says in literal translation "You shall not eat upon the blood." Now all translators for thousands of centuries have made that a sentence unto itself and made the second clause of the verse (you shall not soothsay and you shall not divinate) a stand alone sentence. However there is no punctuation in the verse until the end and the cantilation mark that is under the word that ends the first clause is understood to be a pause, like a comma, not a full stop like is found at the end of the verse.

2) If you link the clauses together into one sentence, I believe that this is an injunction against a particular type of divination and soothsaying: those who use animal organs and entrails to make prognostications. Animal organs are rich with blood and animals are sacrificed in order to get their living organs to do make predictions. I do think (although I am not 100% positive) in some cultures in the Middle East at the time, after the prognostication was done, the animal, including its organs, were eaten by the community. In the Israelite sacrificial ritual the most precious meat to be fully burnt into savory smells for God's enjoyment was the organ meat.

3) At the time this verse was written, the Israelites still had in their full possesion the Urim and the Thummim, which when used together were devices of "decision" which Aaron was to wear over his heart and under the high priest's "breastplate of decision." These were God-sanctioned prognostication devices which would bring the Israelite community answers from their God.

A little Biblical history:

At the time Moses was receiving the "Holiness" laws for the Israelites, the people were loosely related tribes who had descended from the Children of Jacob. They were far from being a cohesive nation. And they were still not that far away from Egypt, geographically or mind-set wise. They hadn't made the journey through the wilderness and the people aren't more than three months from the leaving of Egypt. The "Holiness" codes for the Israelite community, which starts with Leviticus 19, was the way God was trying to mold the disperate people into a nation that was separate and unique from those nations that surround them.

It is interesting to note that Leviticus 19:26 is the only mention of prognostication in the whole section of "Holiness" codes for the people, which ends with the last verse in chapter 20. However there are two verses with no clauses regarding ghosts and familiar spirits (19:31 and 20:27). 20:27 ends the "Holiness" codes for the people by telling the people the punishment for people who have a ghost or familiar spirit—they are to be put to death by stoning. Note that this punishment is not meted out on those who practice divination or soothsaying. Thus, at this time, the text was far more concerned about ghosts and familiar spirits and their effects on the people than prognosticators who sacrificed and eviscerated animals for telling the future.

As time progressed and the Israelites become an actual nation and finally settled in the land, the definition of soothsaying and diving were expanded to include other methods beyond the Levitical injunction, which is when astrology, which came from Babylonia, was lumped into the mix.

Let me share a joke that illustrates this expansion principle. This is a discussion between Moses and God:

God: You shall not boil a kid in its mother's milk.

Moses: Got it. You shall not eat meat and milk together.

God (slightly frustrated): That's not what I said. You shall not boil a kid in its mother's milk.

Moses: Got it. You shall have separate dishes and cooking utensils for meat and milk.

God (more frustrated): That's not what I said. You shall not boil a kid in its mother's milk.

Moses: Got it. You shall wait three hours between a meat meal and a dairy meal.

God (extremely frustrated): Oh whatever...

Moses (shaking his head): What's eating him?

Each generation includes and excludes those things that they feel the most comfortable or uncomfortable with as they interpret what the text means to them. In the Jewish Bible we can see that waxing and waning principle taking place with the definitions of soothsaying and divining, and how astrology is understood within the fabric of the Israelite religious ideology.

So is astrology banned by the Jewish texts? I think it depends upon who is doing the astrology. If it is by foreign astrologers it is bad. For example, the story of Daniel is within the timeframe of the Babylonian exile and we find Daniel and his friends actually in the court of Nebuchadnezzar in Babylon. The word Chaldeans has been translated from time in memorium as astrologers, however the three letter root can be either the children of Keshed, a relative of Abraham's or it may also derive from the Akkadian word "to conquer." The Chaldeans were conquerors...and if they were conquerors, what were they conquering?

A digression: It is also important to note that the first time the term "Chaldeans" appears in the text is in regards to a name of a place: Ur of the Chaldeans in Genesis 11:28. Chaldeans in this case would most likely be related to the children of Keshed. So there might be astrologers who are Chaldeans but not all Chaldeans are astrologers. Now, it may be later on that the Chaldeans became noted for having very accurate astrologers and their name became synonymous with astrology and astrologers. And if one conflates that with conquerers, maybe by the time of Daniel, maybe it was a Jewish polemic regarding people who are conquered by the stars.

As I look at the text of the verse in Daniel, I see that Nebuchadnezzar had ordered all the magicians, exorcists, sorcerers and Chaldeans to interpret his dream. Although one could say that Chaldeans are astrologer and astrologers might interpret dreams, this just doesn't sound logical to me. I think, in this case, the Chaldeans may have been the ancient equivilent to today's psychotherapists. However, it was necessary to make an important distinction between the Chaldeans' faulty interpretation of the dream and Daniel's correct interpretation and a label was needed. In otherwords, both Daniel and Chaldeans could not be dream interpreters because that would make them equal. The Chaldeans needed a special label to be distinctive from Daniel, who would be speaking "God's" truth in his interpretation. For whatever reason, the name Chaldeans was chosen to represent that. The only way for us to get a true picture of how the Chaldeans were seen would be to check other ancient Near Eastern lanquages for their definitions of what the word Chaldeans meant.

Okay, I've rambled on a little too long so I'll cut to the quick and say that I don't believe that the Jewish Bible is anti-astrology. I do believe that it is against anything that takes the free will of people away from them—think of Nancy Reagan slavishly planning all of Ronald Reagan's White House activities to astrological charts so they would be absolutely perfect and you can see why I think this. I do think that the Jewish Bible also has problems with people who predict the future in any capacity because that means that people can totally manifest their own destinies without God figuring into the equation. Various prognostication tools, including astrology, takes the control out of God's hands and puts it into human hands. If you know your future through any predictive tool, why do you need God? Remember the last time that humans got uppity and thought they were equivilent to God, the Tower of Babel was destroyed and the people were dispersed with different lanquages so they could not understand each other and rebuild their hubris against God together.

So the Jewish Bible most likely would not condone predictive astrology. Other branches of astrology...as long as they are not used to subvert the free will of the individual or the belief in God, I don't believe there would be an issue with them.

My 2¢ worth. Keep what feels right for you and ditch the rest.

[Summery Joy]

Wow, Elianah! I'll have to read your post over and over to fully comprehend it and be able to use that arguement myself. It doesn't mention, however, what the New Testament may have to say about the issue. Most people, when they discuss astrology in the New Testament, they refer to the Magi as astrologers. OK. Other than that, is there anything else?

On a different issue, please check my thread about Nancy Reagan. I thought it would be off point to post the question here.

[Elianah]

I don't know the New Testament well enough to make any sensible arguments regarding the different views on astrology. What I would do is first find out what different terms they might have used for seers, divinators, soothsayers and astrologers in the New Testament and then read the context surrounding the terms, the few verses before and after the mention of the term to see what was taking place.

For example, I knew that Leviticus 19:26 was pretty much a stand alone verse within the Holiness code for the Israelite people. I knew how translators had broken the two clauses of the verse into two separate sentences. I knew enough Biblical and Near East history plus some psychology and sociology to put a contextual frame around where the viewpoint of the verses from both Leviticus and Daniel might have developed. I also knew enough Hebrew to return to the original language of the text to see what was happening. I provided that information to you because many people start the "Bible is anti-astrology" argument from the verses in Leviticus and Daniel.

Now here is the hard part for you: One of the things you will need to do to understand the New Testament's view of astrology is to find a copy of the Septuagent, which is the first written text of the New Testament. It is in Koine Greek, which means you would need someone who is familiar with that form of Greek to assist you. You can use the Coptic New Testament to pinpoint the actual verses you need to locate in the Septuagent, but the Coptic New Testament is already a translation of the Greek and almost everything loses something when it is translated out of its original language.

By doing this, you will see the way the Greeks who were writing down the oral text three or four decades later after the death of Jesus were writing their culutre's own sensibilities into the text.

Now one can point out that St. Paul's Epistles were most likely written in Aramaic, since that was the lingua franca of the Near East at the time. Maybe and maybe not. He was a literate, educated Judean (I can't remember if he was a Pharisee or Sadducee, yet both of those classes were the most educated members of Judean society) who was collecting taxes throughout Judea. So not only would he need to know Aramaic, he would also need to know Koine Greek because that is the language the Hellanized Judeans and the Greeks living in the land would know. And since he knew his target market, so to speak, was not the native Judeans, I would bet most of his letters were in the standard Greek of the time.

(To be continued...)

[Summery Joy]

Yaaaaaaaaay. I do have a Coptic New Testament and I can read it too (with the aid of a humungous dictionary ).But Other than that, I don't know how to get my hands on sources like those you've mentioned. The Coptic Orthodox Church has lots of original stuff. I don't know what's in print and available for public use though. I'll check.

(waiting for the next episode ... )

Cheers.

[Elianah]

Okay, check and see if there is a Greek Orthodox church in Cairo. Tell the priest that you are doing a research paper on how the various religious sects that would become Christianity treated soothsaying, divination and the Chaldeans during the intertestemental period. Explain that you have the Coptic translation of the New Testement but you need access to the original Greek to do comparisons. Explain also that you don't know Greek and would like the priest's help in understanding the text. Not only will you get insights into the original text, you will also get insights into how the Greek Orthodox church approaches the issue today.

BTW: I just Googled the Septuagint and discovered that it is only the Old Testament.

Anyway, as I have been redoing your chart, I have been thinking about your question a lot in the terms of your post about transiting Jupiter approaching your natal 6th house Uranus, which is squared your 4th house Venus-Jupiter-Sun stellium in Leo.

In this case you may have to be a group in of one and not be afraid if others do not agree with you, which is what the expansiveness of Jupiter is urging the Uranian energy to do. This is going to be difficult because your Leo sun wants everyone to like it and respect its opinions. Remember that every child wants and needs love from its family and its clan and although it may want to stand out, it wants to be in the center of the group and appreciated. That's part of the charm and exasperation of being a Leo, being one myself . We still want to be part of the group, big time. The Uranus square in Scorpio is saying there are times that you need to be outside the group, living in the twilight that is neither light nor dark but both together. It is the place where you will be able to start contacting the deepest layers of yourself—your personal unconscious—and become fully yourself.

Part of Uranus' energetic path for you is to delve into the depths and construct fully who your soul wants you to be in the inner reaches of your universe and then bring out what you have learned and mentor others in how to do it. First you need to find mentors to mentor you. Being part of this website is one of the "unconscious" decisions that Uranus has helped you make on this path.

Now this stands you apart from extended family and clan and that may be very uncomfortable for you. In this context a religion might be thought as a clan because the believers exert the same type of pressure that the extended family does in conforming to the norms and belief and mythology of the group. And your stellium indicates to me that family and clan is a big part of who you are. It most likely affects your self-worth, self-esteem and self-respect along with your intimate relationships (Venus); how you approach all forms of higher learning, whether university, spiritual, religious, occult, etc. (Jupiter) and how you define what it is your soul is on this plane to do (Sun). And you want to be loved and appreciated for who you within that family/clan system (Leo).

Now here is where transiting Neptune in 10th house Aquarius, which is opposing your stellium, is saying: it is time to stop dreaming and take off your rose-colored glasses. The people who are against your study of astrology are not going to be convinced by any of the arguments you may make regarding astrology. See, the quirk about Aquarius in the 10th is that its shadow says you can be an individual only if you fit in with the "public"'s idea of individual, in this case what the extended family/clan defines as what entails an individual and how far you can stretch the boundaries without crossing them into what is taboo. The study of astrology (or any other form of mystical or "occult" studies for that matter) may cross you over into the taboo and they are going to feel that it is their duty to rescue you from yourself.

This makes your natal Uranus and its upcoming eventual conjunction with transiting Jupiter the current focal point of a t-square with Neptune and your stellium opposition. Transiting Rx Mars is too far out of orb at the moment to make it a true grand cross right now, but when it returns direct and moves into orb with the t-square, there is going to be serious energy swirling about you.

The thing is, you will never change the minds of those people who say astrology is against Christianity. That is their path and honor it (another great Leo trait ). They will most likely not honor your path and you will need to accept that. And accept that you may need to be a group of one and there may only a few people within the family/clan who will love, accept and appreciate you no matter what your beliefs are. Cherish those people. What you need to do is make sure you have absolutely no qualms about the relationship of astrology and Christianity for you. For your detractors will astrologically unknowingly use the Leo need of being loved and appreciated against you to keep you in line. My guess is that this will all break loose when Mars makes direct aspect to the t-square (which will probably be way before Jupiter makes orbal contact with your Uranus).

You've taken the first step by posting this thread. Keep up the good work!

And, as always, this is my 2¢ worth. Take what fits and ditch the rest.

P.S.: just did a little net-hopping and found a verse for you to begin with-Acts 16:16. The words you want to focus on are pneuma puqwna, spirit of divination and manteuomenh fortune-telling. The italicized words are the Greek. The link is http://www.studylight.org/.

[Summery Joy]

Elianah,

Thank you very much for the effort you are putting into this and for striving to understand my personal interest in the results of this thread. I truly appreciate it (and I'm not just saying that to you coz you're a leo )

Everything that you have said is very true. But I have a bigger problem here. Ever since it has come to my attention that my Church may be against my interest in astrology I've been having an internal conflict regarding whether I should continue my study of astrology or not.

Before you get all pro astrology, here's my arguement. I believe in Christianity. I'm a believer. I'm not just Coptic Orthdox because my parents brought me up that way. It is, in fact, my choice. And with Church matters, I do not take what I like and leave the rest. I take it all as a whole. I accept what I do not agree with for the sake of what I like because I truly believe that this Church the right way for me.

Now, Church seems to be against astrology. That doesn't make astrology a pseudo-science. It simply makes it rejected by Church. And although I know that astrology does work, it seems to be working against the approval of Church. What I'm searcging for is whether it is working against the approval of GOD. This seems quite inconceivable simply because God is the maker of this universe with all its powers and effects, including planets and their effect on nature. So, I guess that astrology in essence is ok, but may have been misused for the bad throughout history which is why Chucrh has labeled it as "bad" or "not from God". I mean, come on! What's not from God? Nothing excpet the free will of humans themselves really.


(voices from within: stop while you can, stop while you can).
You know why I may just listen to those voices?

well, in my heart, I know I'm right. But if get all hooked on astrology then I come to a point where I have to choose between Church and astrology, I will act in the way I disrespect the most. I will continue astrology secretly. And you know what's so bad about it for me? I will not be able to help people with my knowledge of astrology, which is very hard for me because I seem to have an innate need to take care of people (my moon is conj. my asc, maybe that's why). And, like you said, I will lose my individuality in the process, which will make me very bitter because being different and unique is the one way I can be fully expressive.

I have already stopped discussing astrology matters with some friends although, knowing their charts, I can explain lots of what's going on their lives and make it easier. I mean, come on. I'm the only one I know who's dealing well with all the Rx and direct bonanza going on coz I know about it. I'm the only one who can resist the "me first" attitude given by the node in Aries because I know about it. God, I know myself. If I didn't know about all this, I would have been going crazy by now.

Last Valentine's Day was one of the worst days of my life. I never knew why. I didnt have a date, but it had never been so bad before. I was going out of my mind and crying for no reason. And I wasn't so happy with God and so frustrated by Church (also for no reason!). Now that I know astrology, I have come to know that on the day the transiting Sun, Mercury, Venus and Neptune were in Aquarius opposite my natal stellium in Leo. The transitting moon was approching a conjunction with my natal moon and a square with the natal stellium (poor stellium), and Mars was transitting my 9th house and the Node was also in Aries making me (and everyone) all "me, me, me". Now, this is bound to happen again, but at least now how to deal with it. What on earth is so wrong with that?!?!

Oh well, I'm glad I have someone who understand to talk to. If you have reached this line, thank you for reading through this humongous complaint

[baker]

Wilkinson

Would Buddha, Christ, or Any Holy Person Be Influenced By Astrology?
by Robert Wilkinson

Sure they would. Just because you're a holy man or woman doesn't mean the timing to things becomes irrelevant. Each of the above holy beings had a birth time, and therefore changes in their lives that were measurable and predictable. The timing on Buddha's enlightenment, for example, was tied to Saturn and the cycle of Full Moons. That makes sense, since he became a teacher about how to overcome suffering, no small thing. Suffering in all forms is intimately associated with Saturn, the planet symbolizing the fears, limitations, and delusions of form and perception we must learn to deal with in order to come to our spiritual maturity here on Earth.

Full Moons are definitely enlightening, bringing the promise of the New Moon to fulfillment in forms. The importance of the Wesak Festival (the Full Moon of Sun in Taurus Moon in Scorpio every spring) is associated directly with the Buddha, and the re-energizing of His eternal "Buddha nature" that is poured out to our world every year assisting humanity to overcome suffering. Of course, we are all familiar with Christ's association with the Fishes, or the sign of Pisces, also linked with the last 2000 year "age." Most Christians, regardless of what spiritual form or religion they embrace, definitely are learning about how to manifest positive Pisces traits, overcoming the problems and weaknesses of this sign.

This follows up on a theme I've introduced before, that once we get a grip on our own problems, strengths, weaknesses, and paths to enlightenment, regardless of how broad or narrow they are, we learn how to transmute them into positive responses to life. That becomes our gift to others in our world. Once we evolve beyond certain personality fears, limitations, and challenges, then we are in a position to share our experiences with others on the same path as we are, helping them in turn to overcome their own challenges and limitations and learning from them as well.

We are Eternal Beings having a human experience. We have a body, we have feelings, we have a mind, but we ARE a Spirit. This Higher Self expresses itself through our "Lights," the planets which symbolize the different parts of us. That's why we change as our planets move through experiences. These are symbolized by the Elements as we find them in all birth charts. To everything there is a season, and we observe these seasons of Life through the lens of Astrology that we may understand the meaning of the moment.

We perfect our lights through the different expressions of what we do, feel, think, desire, and yearn for. These help us learn the meaning of our life, who we are and who we are not. Through all our experiences, we learn a higher, better expression as we move through different fields of activity. Our heart's ability to express itself positively in approaching life's turning points helps us become our higher Material, Emotional, Mental, and Spiritual Self over time. Then we are able consciously to practice our higher, "Affirmative Self" whenever the opportunity presents itself.

Sometimes the practice is in harmonious circumstances. Sometimes we also must practice our higher Affirmative Self in difficult circumstances which test our ability to apply what we have realized and sought. We can learn not to get hooked by the lower self through both pleasurable and painful experiences. This is where the art and science of cycles is helpful. The passage through types of experience as shown by the signs help us to perfect our expression of all the positive sign qualities of our humanness.

Also, we are all experiencing simultaneously within the three dimensions of human experience. We learn all of the elemental qualities on the Personal level, the level of personality. We also learn to perfect ourselves on the Interpersonal level, the level of our interactions with the objects of sensation and other sentient Beings in our world. And we learn to perfect ourselves on the Transpersonal level, the level of our service to a greater Goodwill, Fellowship, and our Higher Aspiration. This is where we serve to better our world somehow, any way our heart chooses.

As we live our lives on all twelve levels of human endeavor, we are constantly learning through our choices on what to say yes to, and what to say no to. We express ourselves in a lot of ways over our life, and show many faces of ourselves to our world. We change in our thoughts, feelings, and responses, and by our choices we bring forth aspects of our lower self to transmute, and our higher Self to practice. Astrology shows us the timing on the changes. Astrology, rightly understood, is a system by which we can know the 12 areas of experience, who we are and what our purpose actually is, and become a more perfect doing, feeling, thinking, and aspiring human being.

Practicing your Higher Self makes you a healer in your world in whatever way your heart expresses itself. We have that which we learn through direct experience. Then we get to share what we have learned with others who suffer the same problems in their lives. They are free to take it or leave it, but ultimately there are a finite number of human experiences, and we go through them to learn certain things.

Even when we know the most positive responses, we still learn how to teach, share, and love more effectively. This never ends, since we change, humanity changes, metaphors and ways of seeing reality change, and the mass consciousness moves on as well. Consequently, our ways of framing our highest and best possible response to life circumstances also must change, else we find ourselves aware but ineffective.

Many years ago I heard it propounded by a Vedantan philosopher that when one finds a guru (spiritual teacher, literally "dispeller of darkness") then the personal birth chart no longer applies. He also felt that the birth charts of gurus were irrelevant, as he believed them to be beyond earthly things. My response is that regardless of how enlightened a being is, they are still subject to cycles of timing, though not necessarily bound to personality limitations the rest of us are still dealing with.

When we become "enlightened," our birth charts still continue to work. The difference is that Light radiates outward to the world, and the enlightened one is free from the usual traps of human-ness. The chart no longer shows points of fear and suffering, but instead show when the enlightened one will shift gears in their work, or relationships.

As we become more practically enlightened, the chart will show which lessons we are teaching and realizations we are demonstrating. We may not suffer the squares and oppositions as we once did, but we will inevitably find ourselves in situations where we will have to demonstrate our wisdom to others, or counsel them as to how they may transmute the lessons of that moment, or hear their wisdom that we may offer it to another. This is our way of connecting to the web of Life we all live within together.

The supreme genius of how this reality works is that we are never separate from anything or anyone or "God" or truth for even a moment. When we transcend the limitations of perception, then we are truly free to live the highest possibilities of our birth charts in the eternal NOW. We are no longer trapped by transitory forms of truth, God, religion, or any belief system, but can honor the best of all "spiritual" teachings. We are free to be at one in the moment with the qualities of that moment, without suffering from the fears that arise from perceptual traps.

Almost everything we've learned takes us away from our divine power in the moment and the ultimate experience of "Being-ness," or At-One-Ment. We are taught to trust our five senses and our minds, even though these are limited and impermanent. The test for all of us is to remember there is no other time but now, and no other place but here. And that we are Eternals having human experiences on the physical, emotional, and mental levels of existence, so we can learn compassion, love, wisdom, and adaptability.

As we transcend fears and assumptions we have learned from others who also suffer in their own limitations, then our charts can show us our Higher Self and how we may serve the greater web of Life that connects us all, both living and dead. Our charts show us the Teacher, the teaching, and the taught. That's why all true "spiritual" teachers and doctrines have had a place for the cycles of time and change, a.k.a., Astrology.

[Lapis]

Now that was a good article baker! I like this guy a lot. I really liked many of the accurate spiritual 'one liners' he's peppered throughout that article. Very nice, thanks for sharing it.

[Elianah]

Hi ya sore,

Listen, I promise you I will never go pro-anything with you. Not pro-astrology, not pro-religion, not pro-anything. Just as I was saying about you not being able to convince others about what you believe regarding astrology and Christianity, it is not my place to convince you of that either. I hope I have given you the tools to find the right set of answers for you.

Only you can choose what is right for you and your path. You may decide that astrology and Christianity mix for you or you may not. That is fine. I will respect and honor you on your path and will not tell you that you are wrong for what you believe. It is right for you and you need to follow your path. And should I end up with differing views from you, I hope you will extend to me the same courtesy, for my path is right for me and I need to follow it.

We all have unique paths that we walk in the world. There are spaces within the fabric where paths meet and ideas are shared. We will keep some of the ideas and incorporate them into our personal fabrics and other we will allow to remain in the greater fabric. As it should be. By doing this we learn to appreciate our commonalities and celebrate our differences. Each one of us has a unique gift to give the rest of world, whether it is the whole planet or just our little corner of our neighborhood.

The thing is, the more we open up to the work our souls want us to do, the more little neighborhoods we discover we live in and that all those neighborhoods intersect and unite through us. Who we are connects our personal world with the greater world. The more we open to our souls, the more we open to the truth of the universe—that there is no "TRUTH" only a complex, interwoven and beautiful fabric of truths that we can partake of or abstain from based on our choices. We are born and we die—these are the only truths we really have. The rest is mystery—and a wonderful one at that!

On a site like this each of us share our personal mystery and create a new neighborhood in which to live, play, cry and revel. The ideas we share are not absolute truths. They are ideas which represent who we are at this moment in time. Some of the ideas will grow and metamorphize into other things while others will wither because they are no longer us—both individually and as a community or, as discussed in a previous post, a clan. 8)

My hope is that the clan remain open to all and not censure anyone. We have much to learn from each other.

I will now get off my soapbox.

BTW, when I was writing my last post, I did get hit with an energy from your chart that said that your question was as much an inner struggle as much as a outer one, if not more so. The people that are mirroring your inner voice of dissuasion are more "in your face" than those who mirror the voice that is supportive of your studies at the moment. Wherever you strike that balance within yourself will be part of your journey.

And I can empathize with what you are going through. I spent over eight years in a seminary environment and had to wrestle with this myself, and just not regarding astrology but also non-physical guides. Are they also considered "familiar spirits" as discussed in Leviticus 19-20? I still haven't found my answer to that question yet. So I can understand where you are at in your thinking about astrology.

And, as always, my 2¢ worth. Take what fits and ditch the rest.

[Kite]

Sorehearted,

I am Jewish but I can appreciate that Jesus challenged the conventional religious authority of the day to instill within his followers the concept that the "Kingdom of God is Within You". Everyone should develop their own inner authority and in my opinion, Astrology is a tool that can serve in this area.

In terms of soothsaying, there is no pre-determination, there are only probabilities that exist. Astrology can help select the most expansive probable futures. Free will and Free choice always exist. A book called the Issiah Effect shows how even the worst prophesies can be voided by focusing on manifesting alternative probabilities. Many believe that's exactly what happened in 1987 during a period called the Harmonic Convergence. During this time, a collective decision was made to void the End of the World that was prophesized to come in the year 2000.

This higher dimensional vote was enabled by a growing consciousness on the planet that chose to remain and create a new scenario which we are playing out today. The best proof of this was the end of the Soviet Union which was supposed to play a primary role in these doomsday prophesies. The Soviets fell shortly after the HC.

Take what I've said for whatever its worth because in the end, you must decide for yourself what serves you versus what serves God.

[baker]

Just wanna say, I've never been more proud of my clan here than I am today, via this thread. Wonderful input and with all the right attitude. I know this is because of the real and wonderful people involved. 8) It's nice to have a "safe place" to search inside ourselves and put ourselves out to the universe in such a fabulous and loving way. Elianah is just awesome and Kite and Sorehearted, how brave of you guys, how brave to even ask. And goes to show what a wonderful group of people here and to experience the change we can make in our collective consciousness. And Theo, the new clanmember, coming here is not by mistake. Lapis remains my go-to person, a good researcher like me. And the other people who haven't posted here but I have come to respect and love, like Aquarius Moon and others. Wait a minute. ...... okay there we go, tr Venus in the 12th about to cross the asc, tr moon in 7th JUST about on Pluto, I'm feeling the LOVE!!!! Happy holidays guys! xo