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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renassiance eras. Specifically it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) and exludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) non-Ptolemaic aspects, as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretetation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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Old 11-25-2012, 09:18 PM
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The Pre-Natal Epoch Also Known As The Trutine Of Hermes

An astrological technique from antiquity generally known as the Prenatal Epoch

'....Ascendant, or its opposite, at birth, is Moon's position at conception.


....Known as "Trutine of Hermes," from Hermes Trismegistus who stated the law as follows:

"The place of the Moon at conception becomes the birth ascendant or its opposite point."



"But this proved to be but one-half of a very important law, for while the...

Ascendant at birth was the place of the Moon at a certain Epoch, the Ascendant or its opposite point at this Epoch was the place of the Moon at birth

....a very remarkable interchange of factors." E.H. Bailey.



– details viewable at http://www.darrelyngunzburg.com/PDFs/PreNatalEpoch.pdf


The prenatal Epoch idea is so well known that astrology software such as Solar Fire allows the user to calculate their prenatal Epoch. The idea of the prenatal Epoch is also useful because it is often decisive in chart rectification


*****EDIT: I noticed that Solar Fire calculated the prenatal Epoch when I purchased my own personal a copy of Solar Fire bought directly from the company and for which I paid the full original price which was not cheap!

HOWEVER my software copy of Solar Fire is currently installed on an older computer that is no longer in use due to my having upgraded with new computer equipment.

FURTHERMORE I have no interest in using Solar Fire because I purchased and installed Placidus 7 and Porphyrius Magus obtained from Rumen Kolev at Babylonian Astrology website http://www.babylonianastrology.com/

NEVERTHELESS I retain the disc I purchased directly from Solar Fire i.e. it is not a second hand disc so I paid full price. I keep that disc for several reasons, one of which is that I may need it. I prefer to calculate the prenatal Epoch without the use of software since I have personally found that is the more accurate method


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Last edited by JUPITERASC; 02-23-2013 at 11:53 AM. Reason: clarification
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Old 11-26-2012, 04:21 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
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Re: The Pre-Natal Epoch Also Known As The Trutine Of Hermes

Probably it is the most reliable form of rectification!
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Old 11-26-2012, 09:25 PM
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Re: The Pre-Natal Epoch Also Known As The Trutine Of Hermes

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Probably it is the most reliable form of rectification!
Agreed. Interesting to question whether the increasing number of caesarian surgeries and inductions could well compromise its centuries of reliability
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Old 11-27-2012, 03:02 AM
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Re: The Pre-Natal Epoch Also Known As The Trutine Of Hermes

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Agreed. Interesting to question whether the increasing number of caesarian surgeries and inductions could well compromise its centuries of reliability
Only relative to natural "completion" of the Epoch; I would think this influence of essentially "premature" birth (relative to the natural Epoch time) would make the native very "open" to the birth-time astrological influences, since a kind of double shock (shock of premature relative tot he Epoch birth PLUS the typical birth-shock itself) would be affecting the field of the native, making it very susceptible (perhaps moreso than usually) to the subtle array of instreaming energies at the moment...
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Old 11-29-2012, 10:32 PM
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Re: The Pre-Natal Epoch Also Known As The Trutine Of Hermes

I would like to point out that this is not a 'rectification method' that takes one to the correct birth Ascendant degree, since in many rectification situations there is little certainty of the birth time or none at all. Therefore there is no way to reason backwards for confirmation/justification of the birth chart already in hand. (In the linked article it is used in general fashion as a natal chart justification method.) Instead the pre-natal epoch/Trutine is just a tool that can be used to confirm a good rectification or to indicate which of two AM/PM times given is closer to correct.

My 24-hour rectifcation (no birth time info whatsoever) for Elizabeth Warren from my article:
http://kannonmcafee.wordpress.com/20...rth-horoscope/


A pre-natal epoch chart for her from exactly 9 months previous


Notice that a birth chart with Scorpio or Sagittarius rising would also appear to be confirmed for Elizabeth Warren should birth times appear that indicate those rising signs for her since the Moon would still be within range.

To be precise, this lunation describes a cycle of the mother's body and should be cast for the location in which conception took place. Theoretically that will remove some of the slack and tighten up the chart for a more precise comparison.

This general tool can be used, for example with the chart of Hillary Clinton, since both (8:00) AM and PM times have been given for her (along with others entirely different). Such a pre-natal epoch tool can indicate which general time of day is actually most indicated for Hillary's birth chart.

These tools are useful, but do not draw end-of-the-line conclusions of a fully validated birth chart. That requires the skill of the astrologer. With modern computers, the right information and pinpoint GPS coordinates available online we can outdo any 'ancient' rectifier.
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Last edited by Kannon; 11-29-2012 at 10:47 PM.
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Old 11-29-2012, 10:48 PM
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Re: The Pre-Natal Epoch Also Known As The Trutine Of Hermes

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Originally Posted by Kannon View Post
...With modern computers, the right information and pinpoint GPS coordinates available online we can outdo any 'ancient' rectifier.
Not necessarily!

As is evidenced when recently a forum member had their chart 'rectified' only to discover on unearthing yet more information that the 'rectification' was wildly inaccurate.

The fact is that different astrologers 'rectify' the same chart using their own individual judgement and opinions and frequently disagree 'despite modern computers and pinpoint GPS'. Furthermore, not unexpectedly, it is normal for each astrologer to say that their chosen method is 'the one'. Therefore, one is advised to request the precise method of rectification being claimed and then personally check each step of that technique for oneself.

Also there is unavoidable human error to which all are subject.


For anyone interested there's a discussion on rectification at http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...hlight=rectify
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Old 11-29-2012, 11:13 PM
Alice McDermott Alice McDermott is offline
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Re: The Pre-Natal Epoch Also Known As The Trutine Of Hermes

For quite a few years part of my practice involved finding good conception times for couples that were having difficulty getting pregnant.

As a result, I became quite skilled in both understanding why and when someone conceives and the date of the resulting birth.

The prenatal epoch form of rectification works very well if:

* The person was conceived at the place where they were born. If they weren't adjustments need to be made.

* If the birth was natural, i.e. without medical 'assistance'. This includes induction, forceps or equivalent delivery and naturally, C-sections. It can also include times when a baby is stuck in the womb for various reasons. This is obviously because the natural cycle between conception and birth is interfered with, a birth that has occurred out of this natural cycle makes it almost impossible to go back to the time of conception from the natal chart.

Drugs used to alleviate pain can slow down or speed up the birth a little, but the pre-natal epoch system is still viable, though it can be a few minutes out.

The sex degree system in the pre-natal epoch is also valid. I have been working with this to see if there is a correlation between homsexuality and the Ascendant in one sex degree whilst the Moon is in another, or the sex degrees of the Ascendant and Moon are in a neutral area.

As far as I can determine, the stimulus for birth is directly connected to the time of conception. This is born out with Day Age Harmonics applied to the conception chart - the day of birth is usually indicated by an harmonic trigger to the angles.

This is a truly fascinating area of astrology that has stimulated my interest for a number of years. Now we have the technology to determine ovulation, the astrology to determine conception and the ability to time the first breath, if a birth is entirely natural the epoch system should be clearly ratified. My own studies with clients, family and friends has convinced me of its validity.

Alice
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Old 11-29-2012, 11:53 PM
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Re: The Pre-Natal Epoch Also Known As The Trutine Of Hermes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alice McDermott View Post
For quite a few years part of my practice involved finding good conception times for couples that were having difficulty getting pregnant.

As a result, I became quite skilled in both understanding why and when someone conceives and the date of the resulting birth.

The prenatal epoch form of rectification works very well if:

* The person was conceived at the place where they were born. If they weren't adjustments need to be made.

* If the birth was natural, i.e. without medical 'assistance'. This includes induction, forceps or equivalent delivery and naturally, C-sections. It can also include times when a baby is stuck in the womb for various reasons. This is obviously because the natural cycle between conception and birth is interfered with, a birth that has occurred out of this natural cycle makes it almost impossible to go back to the time of conception from the natal chart.

Drugs used to alleviate pain can slow down or speed up the birth a little, but the pre-natal epoch system is still viable, though it can be a few minutes out.

The sex degree system in the pre-natal epoch is also valid. I have been working with this to see if there is a correlation between homsexuality and the Ascendant in one sex degree whilst the Moon is in another, or the sex degrees of the Ascendant and Moon are in a neutral area.

As far as I can determine, the stimulus for birth is directly connected to the time of conception. This is born out with Day Age Harmonics applied to the conception chart - the day of birth is usually indicated by an harmonic trigger to the angles.

This is a truly fascinating area of astrology that has stimulated my interest for a number of years. Now we have the technology to determine ovulation, the astrology to determine conception and the ability to time the first breath, if a birth is entirely natural the epoch system should be clearly ratified. My own studies with clients, family and friends has convinced me of its validity. Alice
'…..Sex or 'Critical; Degrees are used to confirm sex of subject or native. They are the central points of their respective orbs, which extend both ways to the end of orb.

It will be noticed, therefore, that when one degree of a certain sign is in one sex, the opposite sign and degree are in the opposite sex. Hence all that is necessary in order to place one of the factors in the proper sex position is to vary the count by fourteen days, making the period of gestation either shorter or longer, which will bring the proper ascending degree.....'
http://www.amazon.com/The-Prenatal-E.../dp/1933303247


Application of sex or "critical" degrees:

'…."Allow proper orb of influence for Moon and Ascendant in natal chart, thereby showing immediately whether masculine or feminine degree is rising, also sex position of Moon. It will be noticed that no matter in what degree the Ascendant falls, it will always occupy a position within orb of one of these sex points, either masculine or feminine; but Moon's position may fall outside of the orb of influence, and this gives what is termed a negative position of the Moon. If the Moon is negative in the birth chart, we have either a strictly regular or irregular Epoch”...'
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Old 12-03-2012, 06:11 PM
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Re: The Pre-Natal Epoch Also Known As The Trutine Of Hermes

[QUOTE=Alice McDermott;435895]
The prenatal epoch form of rectification works very well if:

* The person was conceived at the place where they were born. If they weren't adjustments need to be made.

* If the birth was natural, i.e. without medical 'assistance'. This includes induction, forceps or equivalent delivery and naturally, C-sections.
[\QUOTE]

Exactly! Since this lunation cycle starts with the mother it is hers and must be charted for the location where she was at the time of conception.

The difficulty with the notion that we can astrologically determine the moment of conception is that it has no verifiable outside corroboration to test it. That exact moment may be experienced subjectively in some way by some women, but from our point of view this is a speculative 'moment' astrologically that is based on a principle - the lunation principle here. All I can do at best is pinpoint a period of one day using the mother's natal Sun-Moon relationship.

When I'm doing a rectification for which I have only a few dates, particularly children's birth dates, the correct mother's natal chart will show not only those dates with very tight progressed aspects involving the 5th house or its ruler, but tracing back 9 months to the day when the Moon and Sun were in same relationship as they were in the mother's birth chart I find near exact progressions (within a few minutes arc) involving the 8th house or its ruler. This 8th house progressed aspect involvement also shows in the father's chart.

The only way I have of pinpointing a day of conception is with this method of the mother's Sun-Moon relationship. This specifies a day but not a moment. This is why I can only use the 'pre-natal epoch' as a confirming method for the general time of day for a rectification.
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Old 12-03-2012, 07:28 PM
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Re: The Pre-Natal Epoch Also Known As The Trutine Of Hermes

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Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
Probably it is the most reliable form of rectification!
This is certainly an ancient tried and tested method that works well
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Old 12-03-2012, 10:37 PM
Alice McDermott Alice McDermott is offline
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Re: The Pre-Natal Epoch Also Known As The Trutine Of Hermes

[QUOTE=Kannon;436956]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alice McDermott View Post
but from our point of view this is a speculative 'moment' astrologically that is based on a principle - the lunation principle here. All I can do at best is pinpoint a period of one day using the mother's natal Sun-Moon relationship.

When I'm doing a rectification for which I have only a few dates, particularly children's birth dates, the correct mother's natal chart will show not only those dates with very tight progressed aspects involving the 5th house or its ruler, but tracing back 9 months to the day when the Moon and Sun were in same relationship as they were in the mother's birth chart I find near exact progressions (within a few minutes arc) involving the 8th house or its ruler. This 8th house progressed aspect involvement also shows in the father's chart.

The only way I have of pinpointing a day of conception is with this method of the mother's Sun-Moon relationship. This specifies a day but not a moment. This is why I can only use the 'pre-natal epoch' as a confirming method for the general time of day for a rectification.
In truth Kannon, in all the many years of work I have done in helping find good times for couples to conceive a child, I have rarely found the system of determining the mother's Sun-Moon relationship tells the story - not in conceiving my own children, nor my clients, nor my grandchildren. In many cases the mother's Sun-Moon alignment would be impossible as the conception date - medically confirmed - was a couple of weeks away from the Sun and Moon in the same aspect as in the mother's chart.

I have worked with days and even times for conception and combined my astrological knowledge with the temperature method of determining when the woman ovulates. Men also have a cycle of fertility, which is quite easily determined by astrology. The combined charts, particularly the Davison chart's progressions, can often give a very good clue as to when a couple can conceive.

The duration of pregnancy is 10 lunar months or +- 274 days, the variant can be around 14 days; 9 solar months is too short a time.

In the work I have done with people who have had natural births and whose likely period of conception I had mapped, the pre-natal epoch system works really well.

Alice
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Old 02-17-2013, 08:21 PM
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Re: The Pre-Natal Epoch Also Known As The Trutine Of Hermes

Detailed instructions on precisely how to calculate the pre-natal Epoch may be viewed FOR FREE at http://www.rosicrucian.com/zineen/pamen034.htm
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Old 02-18-2013, 12:44 AM
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Re: The Pre-Natal Epoch Also Known As The Trutine Of Hermes

"On The Spot Rectification" guide http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2p9qt1DVBzk

I took a peek at that video. His methods seem to work for him, but like a few of these astrologers, I'm not entirely sure of every detail or every significance, it's like a step or two has been omitted because it seems so clear in the mind.

I like to check these now and again to see if there's a 2/5 minute change I should make but it's like a Rubix cube with my chart; some events fit and then others are displaced.
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Old 02-18-2013, 12:52 AM
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Re: The Pre-Natal Epoch Also Known As The Trutine Of Hermes

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Originally Posted by byjove View Post
"On The Spot Rectification" guide http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2p9qt1DVBzk

I took a peek at that video. His methods seem to work for him, but like a few of these astrologers, I'm not entirely sure of every detail or every significance, it's like a step or two has been omitted because it seems so clear in the mind.

I like to check these now and again to see if there's a 2/5 minute change I should make but it's like a Rubix cube with my chart; some events fit and then others are displaced.
byjove if you get a chance do check out the in-depth info at http://www.rosicrucian.com/zineen/pamen034.htm as its valuable for rectification - particularly if the birth in question was one that occurred without surgical intervention
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Old 10-26-2013, 06:20 PM
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Re: The Pre-Natal Epoch Also Known As The Trutine Of Hermes

This is an old thread but the first post caught my eye as I also have Solar Fire for many years and did not quite understand all the choices in the Pre Natal module. Anyone care to do a comparison between your method and the Solar Fire method and explain the difference - or did I miss that in the preceding posts?
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Old 10-28-2013, 12:52 AM
Alice McDermott Alice McDermott is offline
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Re: The Pre-Natal Epoch Also Known As The Trutine Of Hermes

Quote:
Originally Posted by byjove View Post
"On The Spot Rectification" guide http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2p9qt1DVBzk

I took a peek at that video. His methods seem to work for him, but like a few of these astrologers, I'm not entirely sure of every detail or every significance, it's like a step or two has been omitted because it seems so clear in the mind.

I like to check these now and again to see if there's a 2/5 minute change I should make but it's like a Rubix cube with my chart; some events fit and then others are displaced.
I don't know why he has named this method after himself as it is a well known method that I learned in my beginner prediction class in the 70's!

It is accurate for anything to do with the MC and IC. Other events can be shown with the Ascendant-Descendant and Vertex-antiVertex when the MC is accurate.

The method is a handy 'rule of thumb' that does give a good fix of around a degree. You can then fine tune using the Right Ascension MC process and make it really, really accurate with Age Harmonics.

Alice
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Old 10-28-2013, 01:15 AM
Alice McDermott Alice McDermott is offline
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Re: The Pre-Natal Epoch Also Known As The Trutine Of Hermes

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Originally Posted by drchispas View Post
This is an old thread but the first post caught my eye as I also have Solar Fire for many years and did not quite understand all the choices in the Pre Natal module. Anyone care to do a comparison between your method and the Solar Fire method and explain the difference - or did I miss that in the preceding posts?
Solar Fire programmed its Bailey pre-natal epoch methods directly from his book. It highlights the most likely conception date derived from that method, but also gives the other dates that may be correct.

It helps if you know if you were on time, early or late in your birth as this method will give options for this variant.

The day age harmonic from the conception chart for the actual birthday will show which is the correct one as there is almost always a strong trigger indicating birth.

The Jayne Uranus (C) will give the same conception dates and times as Bailey, but doesn't use the sex degrees, so it won't differentiate between female and male births.

Solar Fire explains what it is doing so if you go to the Help menu (?) and then type in Bailey pre-natal epoch it will give you heaps of information on this and Jayne's methods.

These methods are wonderfully accurate for natural births, but if there has been medical assistance in the birth e.g. induction, forceps and equivalent, delaying birth through drugs, C-section etc., the natural cycle is thrown out by human intervention, so they won't work.

Alice

Last edited by Alice McDermott; 10-28-2013 at 01:23 AM.
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Old 10-28-2013, 02:46 PM
drchispas drchispas is offline
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Re: The Pre-Natal Epoch Also Known As The Trutine Of Hermes

Here is the problem, I used the two charts described in this PDF
http://www.darrelyngunzburg.com/PDFs/PreNatalEpoch.pdf

That of George Bush and the soccar player. Copied the birth times and place exactly as it was on the chart into Solar Fire and I could not duplicate what Gunzburg came up with, the closest was 48 hours and 24 minutes for one of them, Since she mentioned using the Esoteric company data I assumed she might be using Solar Fire, but she may be using another method. 48 hours difference is pretty useless.
Can you match the same exact times that Gunzburg comes up with in her example and how?
BTW, the ball players birthday was 20 plus days minus the usual 280 days, an early birth.
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Old 10-28-2013, 10:39 PM
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Re: The Pre-Natal Epoch Also Known As The Trutine Of Hermes

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Originally Posted by drchispas View Post
Here is the problem, I used the two charts described in this PDF
http://www.darrelyngunzburg.com/PDFs/PreNatalEpoch.pdf

That of George Bush and the soccar player. Copied the birth times and place exactly as it was on the chart into Solar Fire and I could not duplicate what Gunzburg came up with, the closest was 48 hours and 24 minutes for one of them, Since she mentioned using the Esoteric company data I assumed she might be using Solar Fire, but she may be using another method. 48 hours difference is pretty useless.
Can you match the same exact times that Gunzburg comes up with in her example and how?
BTW, the ball players birthday was 20 plus days minus the usual 280 days, an early birth.
Any software program has its limitations

Detailed instructions on precisely how to calculate the pre-natal Epoch without the use of a computer may be viewed FOR FREE at
http://www.rosicrucian.com/zineen/pamen034.htm
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Old 10-29-2013, 12:05 AM
Alice McDermott Alice McDermott is offline
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Re: The Pre-Natal Epoch Also Known As The Trutine Of Hermes

Quote:
Originally Posted by drchispas View Post
Here is the problem, I used the two charts described in this PDF
http://www.darrelyngunzburg.com/PDFs/PreNatalEpoch.pdf

That of George Bush and the soccar player. Copied the birth times and place exactly as it was on the chart into Solar Fire and I could not duplicate what Gunzburg came up with, the closest was 48 hours and 24 minutes for one of them, Since she mentioned using the Esoteric company data I assumed she might be using Solar Fire, but she may be using another method. 48 hours difference is pretty useless.
Can you match the same exact times that Gunzburg comes up with in her example and how?
BTW, the ball players birthday was 20 plus days minus the usual 280 days, an early birth.
I don't agree with much of this article and since it was written in 1989 perhaps Gunzburg doesn't anymore either.

She doesn't use the sex degrees or many of the other considerations that are part of the Pre-natal Epoch technique; nor has she made any effort to find out if the people were conceived at the same place in which they were born, if they were natural births or if they were full term births.

Ian Thorpe (13 Oct 1982, 10.52 am, Paddington Hospital, Sydney, Australia) is a great Australian swimmer, not a ball player. Solar Fire (created by Esoteric Technologies) gives his most likely conception date as 10th January 1982 at 8.08.51 am, Paddington Hospital, Sydney, Australia. His time of birth according to this epoch is 10.56.48 am. His birth may have been brought forward a little through the use of forceps or he may have been conceived in a different place to that of his birth.

George W Bush was born on 6 July 1946 at 7.26 pm, New Haven, CT. I was unable to find any details about his birth so would not have used him in an article to present the pre-natal epoch technique.

Solar Fire gives his most likely conception time as 30th September 1945, 6.53.35 pm, New Haven, CT with a resultant time of birth of 7.28.19 am; again the time variant could be because he was conceived in a different place to that of his birth or that forceps were used in his delivery, bringing it forward 2 minutes - or the rectification is inaccurate.

Alice
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  #21  
Old 10-29-2013, 04:04 AM
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JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
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Re: The Pre-Natal Epoch Also Known As The Trutine Of Hermes

Also keep in mind that any computer software is written by an individual.

Individuals have different opinions.

Computer software reflects the opinions of the software programmer and is far from infallible
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  #22  
Old 10-29-2013, 07:49 AM
Alice McDermott Alice McDermott is offline
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Re: The Pre-Natal Epoch Also Known As The Trutine Of Hermes

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Also keep in mind that any computer software is written by an individual.

Individuals have different opinions.

Computer software reflects the opinions of the software programmer and is far from infallible
Solar Fire programmed the Bailey Pre-natal epoch technique and the Jayne techniques directly from the instructions given in their books, so I am sure the results are correct.

I have also checked them by hand when it was first presented in the program to make sure it was correct.

Mostly technical programmers don't have an opinion, they just follow the instructions for the technique. Quite often they don't even know what it is for.

Alice
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