Wedding - Ceremony vs. Paperwork

[Libra20]

Forgive me if this question has already been addressed, but I couldn't find it. I wanted some other opinions on the chart for the ceremony vs. the chart for when you file at the courthouse. Which chart takes precedence? If the ceremony chart isn't perfect (since you usually are limited to weekend dates for the reception), can you counteract that by the other chart being strong?

Thanks
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[astro.teacher]

Definately the chart with regard to the paperwork. However it would be also nice to have a ceremony on a favorable day as well if you can but paperwork takes priority because its a formal agreement and if done during favorable times, it will work out to both your advantages.

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

I would definately set it for the ceremony. An event chart is the metaphorical birth of the event, like an actual birth of a person. So, using this analogy, one has to consider the reality of natal charts. What are they based off of? Obviously, natal data is the birth place, date, and time the person was physically born. A natal chart is not set for the completion of the birth certificate or for when it is given to the parents of the child. Continue this with the marriage license and it gets more complicated. There is no way to know when the marriage license is officially approved. In the US, the couple fills out some paper work and sends it in, then there is a 1-6 day waiting period wherein the license could be approved at any point in time during the waiting period.

[astro.teacher]

The birth of the marriage is when two parties sign the contract. It has nothing to do with the approval of the licence or any other formalities (although signing during a bad time may delay as well as void the contract). The ceremony is nothing more then a celebration of marriage, the celebration of the union which has been agreed to on paper. Most marriages back in the day were signed during the ceremony itself so if that were the case you would have to calculate the best time for that even which would happen during the ceremony but a marriage is a union and contract and thus calculated under the time both parties signed the contract (the 7th House significations; marriage & contracts).

[ramsye]

To me, this would depend on which event the couple thinks is more important/significant. Do the couple hold the ceremony in higher regard or the paperwork? Can you ask the couple if you are in contact with them?

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

Continuing my natal/wedding point, the couple isn't "physically" married until the bride and groom exchange rings which we know happens at the ceremony.

It has nothing to do with the approval of the licence or any other formalities

It has everything to do with the approval of a license...if the license isn't approved for whatever, then they aren't legally married, so why even try to debate that?

The ceremony is nothing more then a celebration of marriage

No. The ceremony is the symbolic union and verbal agreement of the couple to be married to one another. They do this by saying "I do" after being asked if they do take their fiancee as their spouse. The celebration of the marriage is afterwards and we call it a "reception".

Most marriages back in the day were signed during the ceremony itself

Define "back in the day". For some reason, I don't believe the ancient's had such legalities as we do today. I could be wrong, but I have never heard of an ancient marriage license.

I also think it's necessary to quote a very, very important line from the ceremony. "By the power invested in my by the state of *insert state here*, I now pronounce you husband and wife." Wow...hmmm...this coming from the person who has to sign that set of paperwork after the ceremony is complete.

Originally Posted by ramsye

To me, this would depend on which event the couple thinks is more important/significant.

This is a very interesting point and should probably be considered by the electional astrologer.

In all reality, though, it's an opinion of legality vs. religion/symbolism. I, for one, vote for the religion/symbolism because I don't feel the husband and wife are such to each other until the mutual verbal consent of "I do" and the symbolic union by the trading of rings, the tying of the hands and jumping the broom, or whatever else you may have in the different regions/religions of the world that symbolically tie the bride and groom together as a single entity. All of this in my humble (slightly Leonine ) opinion.

[Draco]

The wedding ceremony is the event from which the couple are considered to be married.

It is from this moment that they consider themselves to be man and wife, as does everyone who witnesses them. It is this date from which they will determine their anniversaries, and it is this event that is commemorated in the photographs, the saying 'I do', the swapping of rings, the cutting of the cake.

A wedding ceremony is an act of ritual magic, and during it's course the couple are 'marrying' and upon it's completion the couple are 'married', as far as everyone is concerned, regardless of paperwork.

The 'Just Married' displayed at the back of the wedding car, and the 'Congratulations on your Wedding' cards that have been sent to the couple, pay little heed of the fact that the paperwork has not yet gone through, nor does the fact that they check into their honey-moon suite as 'Mr. & Mrs. So and So'.

In the same way we determine our horoscopes from the time at which we were born, not the time at which our birth is registered, despite the fact that before such a time, according to the law, we do not officially exist.

[fensi88]

I wanted some other opinions on the chart for the ceremony vs. the chart for when you file at the courthouse.

It depends what happend first. For example, in our country some couples do not wedding in church and only have communal wedding and that moment when thay say "I do" I would consider thay are merried.
Some couples have ceremony in church first and than go to communal. In that case I would consider time(when thay say "I do" ) from ceremony in church.
To be clear I would also consider time when thay say "I do", not when thay get "papers".

[Libra20]

Thanks everyone! So, it sounds like the ceremony it is.

Originally Posted by Draco

In the same way we determine our horoscopes from the time at which we were born, not the time at which our birth is registered, despite the fact that before such a time, according to the law, we do not officially exist.

That is a good point. I didn't quite think of it that way.

Originally Posted by Kaio

All of this in my humble (slightly Leonine ) opinion.

A humble Leo, yeah, right

Thanks Goca. The "I do" does seem to make sense as every country has it's own legalities and cultural customs, so the one constant is the actual saying of "I do."

Ramsye - I don't think they hold more importance to either. Since it is getting difficult to find the right weekend date, she thought that opening up the dates to anytime for the license itself would make things easier.
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[unukalhai]

At most wedding ceremonies, you generally hear the words: "by the power vested in me by the <something of other> I pronounce you husband and wife"... That's your chart!

[astro.teacher]

I have to disagree with everyone here on the grounds it makes no logical Astrological sense. In order to determine the outcome of a contract, one needs to make a good election at the time of SIGNING the contract. With marriage this is no different, regardless if someone says "you are now husband and wife" for that is nothing but lip service because saying doesnt make it happen at that moment. It has nothing to do with the third party anymore than a notary has to do with the contract being signed in the rental of a house. Its no different than a doctor saying "You are now a mommy". It doesnt matter if it comes out that moment or 1 hour later after the birth of the child, the fact is when the initiation of the contract takes place by the signature of both parties, the marriage is officially final and thus you can determine the length of the marriage, whether the contract will be a long lasting one, and many other details. All of the rest is just filling.

Continuing my natal/wedding point, the couple isn't "physically" married until the bride and groom exchange rings which we know happens at the ceremony.

Actually they are physically a couple at the moment the marriage contract is signed. Would you make an election for the time a couple moves into your rental House or the time the contract is signed? All Astrological data I have states that its the signing of the contract that is the most important.

It has everything to do with the approval of a license...if the license isn't approved for whatever, then they aren't legally married, so why even try to debate that?

Exactly my point. The approval of the marriage licence is dictated by the placement ofthe Planets during its signing. If the ceremony happens, and the marriage licence isnt approved, they arent married - end of story.

No. The ceremony is the symbolic union and verbal agreement of the couple to be married to one another. They do this by saying "I do" after being asked if they do take their fiancee as their spouse. The celebration of the marriage is afterwards and we call it a "reception".

Well then they must ALREADY be married because that event already took place when one asked the other to marry them and they said yes. Thus they are married at that point on and anything else after that is fluff, thats exactly what you are saying.

Define "back in the day". For some reason, I don't believe the ancient's had such legalities as we do today. I could be wrong, but I have never heard of an ancient marriage license.

Who said anything about ancients? Prior to the government having control over marriages, the church usually signed the marriage licence the moment during the wedding ceremony. There was no "filing for marriage licence" it happened right on the spot with the approval of the church.

I also think it's necessary to quote a very, very important line from the ceremony. "By the power invested in my by the state of *insert state here*, I now pronounce you husband and wife."

If the marriage licence isnt signed, that statement is null and void and nothing but lipservice.

The wedding ceremony is the event from which the couple are considered to be married.

Since when? A marriage ceremony is useless if the contracts are not signed. This is a simpe 7th House contractual bond. There is a reason contracts are in the House of marriage.

It is this date from which they will determine their anniversaries, and it is this event that is commemorated in the photographs, the saying 'I do', the swapping of rings, the cutting of the cake.

The date they remember it after is not important to the actual signing of the contract. What if a child were born on a leap year, the celebration takes place on the 28th or the 1st, but their birth was on the 29th. Its just another event (albeit sentimental to everyone) and it is no different than a tenant moving into an apartment. People remember their "moving in date" as well (although there is not as much significance attached to it) but that has little meaning to the point of the signing of the contract.

A wedding ceremony is an act of ritual magic, and during it's course the couple are 'marrying' and upon it's completion the couple are 'married', as far as everyone is concerned, regardless of paperwork.

Without the paperwork there is no marriage. As I said before, the marriage can be taken from the moment of engagement since its ( as well Ritual magic) asking the person to marry them and them say yes. Thus they are married under your definition. But the 7th House rules over CONTRACTS and thus I see no reason why it would be any different in this case simply because its more sentimental.

In the same way we determine our horoscopes from the time at which we were born, not the time at which our birth is registered, despite the fact that before such a time, according to the law, we do not officially exist.

You are being very deceptive with this analogy. You assume that the birth of the marriage is after the ceremony is complete. But why cant the birth of the marriage be when the two parties sign the marriage contract (just like the birth of a rental agreement)? You seem to be confusing filing of the paperwork and filing of a birth certificate are the same as signing a contract which is not the case. Not to mention these are two completely separate Houses and the 7th dealing with contracts indicates the birth is through a contractual bond.

In fact the common mistake people seem to be making here is the fact im talking about "the paperwork". I am not. I am talking about the SIGNING of the contractual bond thus linking both parties into an obligation to perform. Please dont dismiss this event because there is no fabulous ceremony around it. Its important to know the outcome of the contract. Will the marriage last? If the contract is signed with a fixed Sign as an Ascendant, it will last a long time. Will it be happy marriage? If its signed during a beneficial time, it will be. This can all be determined by the agreement both made, the exact same way we determine the relationship between the renter and rentee. There is no difference. If you want safety and security your marriage will last, create an election for this time. I can say from experience and using this technique it has worked wonders with people.

I am actually amused and bewildered that people are disagreeing about this, it is FAR EASIER to calculate the EXACT moment of a signing of a contract (and it only takes a few seconds) than it is for a marriage ceremony and make sure everything lines up on that exact time. Common sense says thats quite an illogical and challenging task to undertake, any wedding planner would laugh at you if you were to suggest having the ceremonial I do's at an EXACT time. Anyone who actually does create Electional charts (especially professionally) knows that with all the considerations you need to take, its quite challenging for there to be more than a 5 minute gap in the time the event needs to be undertaken.

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

Actually they are physically a couple at the moment the marriage contract is signed. Would you make an election for the time a couple moves into your rental House or the time the contract is signed? All Astrological data I have states that its the signing of the contract that is the most important.

No, they are legally a couple the moment the marriage license is approved by the state. I would actually set up an election for whenever the keys to the house are handed to the couple and they become the physical owners of it, however I do think the best event chart for it would be whenever the couple first step in the door they unlocked with said keys. All astrological data I've seen has been set for the date and time of the ceremony, such as the wedding charts given on the SkyScript page concerning comparing different rules on the marriage election. You should check it out, I highly recommend it.

Exactly my point. The approval of the marriage licence is dictated by the placement ofthe Planets during its signing. If the ceremony happens, and the marriage licence isnt approved, they arent married - end of story

No, you're jumping around. Your point is that the signing of the marriage license is what is important, not the approval of it which is my counterpoint. If the license is what's important, then the signing isn't what is important but the recognition of the couple as such by the state is what is important.

Well then they must ALREADY be married because that event already took place when one asked the other to marry them and they said yes. Thus they are married at that point on and anything else after that is fluff, thats exactly what you are saying

No, that's called the "proposal" where the couple moves from boyfriend and girlfriend to fiancees. It is not until after the wedding that they move from being fiancees to being husband and wife and thus married. And please don't tell me "what I'm saying".

Who said anything about ancients?

That's why I asked you to clarify your statement; so I wouldn't get confused and miss your point.

In fact the common mistake people seem to be making here is the fact im talking about "the paperwork". I am not. I am talking about the SIGNING of the contractual bond thus linking both parties into an obligation to perform

What is the signing worth if they still aren't approved by the state as married?

I am actually amused and bewildered that people are disagreeing about this, it is FAR EASIER to calculate the EXACT moment of a signing of a contract (and it only takes a few seconds) than it is for a marriage ceremony and make sure everything lines up on that exact time. Common sense says thats quite an illogical and challenging task to undertake, any wedding planner would laugh at you if you were to suggest having the ceremonial I do's at an EXACT time. Anyone who actually does create Electional charts (especially professionally) knows that with all the considerations you need to take, its quite challenging for there to be more than a 5 minute gap in the time the event needs to be undertaken

I'm sure I can safely say that we all feel the same "amusement" (I must admit I'm taken aback that you find my views as sources of amusement...) and "bewilderment" towards your points. It may be "far easier" to calculate the "exact" moment of a signing of a contract, but it is perhaps impossible to calculate the approval of said contracts, especially in the case of a marriage license where it could be approved anywhere within the next week. It may be "illogical" and "challenging" and the wedding planner may laugh, but I believe even if the bride is just now walking down the aisle at the moment you had elected for the swapping of "I do"s, it will still follow the chart.

EDIT: Uncanny how stuff happens like this. Anyway, the...service person or whoever just dropped by my house to give us the product registration forms on our new air conditioning unit. What does this have to do with this you ask? Well, we got a new air conditioning unit two weeks ago, but we just now got the registration forms to fill out and sign. So, the company hasn't acknowledged that we have it but my family has had it for two weeks and it's been used throughout those two weeks. So, you tell me, which is the event chart set for? Is it: A) When they installed it or B) When we get the papers filled out for it? I'm going for A. This can be used in conjunction with the current marriage debate, with A being the ceremony and B being the signing of the license, especially since the ceremony is a pre-requisit to it being signed and sent in.

[astro.teacher]

A marriage is an agreement between two people written out and signed by both. Whether or not you want to build a custom and ceremony around that event is up to the indivdiual but the bottom of the matter is that the ceremony is traditionally based around the signing of this agreement. Which fits perfectly within the 7th House. Whether or not someone says "You are now married" has little influence on Astrology as the formation of something into a fixed medium that a contract does. I suppose then if someone DOESNT have a marriage ceremony but signs the contract they are not married under the eyes of Astrology? Does that not sound silly? Just because some people put sentimental value into a marriage ceremony it does NOT change the fact of the contract and its need to solidfy the marriage.

If you want to make it complicated try to consider the fact that in many cultures, especially in early european culture up until recently the marriage isnt considered a marriage until its consummated by a sexual act after the declaration of marriage has been signed and agreed. Which is a highly religious act and even considered still under many legal juristidictions.

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

So I wouldn't seem uninformed, I decided to research marriage licenses. Apparently, there were no marriage licenses in the UK until the 14th century, and even then they were completely optional, only being purchased for a status symbol, a quick wedding, or permission to be married elsewhere. This just proves in showing that marriage licenses are relatively new things and people were getting married and no doubt consulting astrologers before the invention of these licenses. Are we to assume that, since there were no licenses, that these astrologer's charts for wedding dates were all void? Sorry, but I do not much like this idea.

[astro.teacher]

Creating an good Astrological Election for the event of a wedding will only show how well the wedding itself will turn out, not the product from which the wedding is supposed to lead to (married life). If Mercury is retrograde at the date of the wedding, communication will be disrupted during the actual ceremony but this will NOT translate into the married life of the couple itself because the couple are not born together as one yet. This action does NOT happen because people say "I do" or any official states "You are now one by my power". Just because someone says "Your baby has come out!" does not mean that it has!

As I said before, a marriage was considered a marriage when the two consummated it with sex which is well after the ceremonial part. It is the physical act of making 2 bodies one. If this event didnt take place, the marriage was not considered a marriage (and only after a pardon from Pope could this be changed). After the consummation of the marriage, the parties are born together as one and thus begin their life together.

Now the state of the marriage itself can ALSO be dictated by the contract in which binds the agreement of marriage. If this contract is signed during a good Electional time, the married life of the couple (which is agreed to under hte contract) will take on the characteristics of the Astrological influence that occured during the signing of the contract. If this contract is broken, their marriage will be broken and the contract will be null. If for instance the contract was signed under a very bad Electional time the contractual agreement between the two parties will not last and break apart.

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

As I said before, a marriage was considered a marriage when the two consummated it with sex which is well after the ceremonial part. It is the physical act of making 2 bodies one. If this event didnt take place, the marriage was not considered a marriage (and only after a pardon from Pope could this be changed). After the consummation of the marriage, the parties are born together as one and thus begin their life together.

Are you refuting your own point with this? It seems to imply that you prefer the consummation chart to the license chart you've been pushing for the past several posts.

[astro.teacher]

It is no different than an Astrologer using both the conceptional and natal charts for an individual. One is based on the conception and the other on the birth, both of which are important times in and individuals life and both of which are highly esteemed by many Astrologers as useful tools. The signing of a marriage contract is the conceptional chart and the consummation of the marriage is the natal.

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

I really don't see the point in this, especially since I'm not too sure about conception charts anyway. First off I would have to disagree with the events you chose as the "conception" and "natal" of the marriage. Obviously I would choose the wedding ceremony to be the natal chart of the marriage, so I'm left with two options for the "conception", the first is the planning of the wedding, but this is no fixed date or time, but an evolving process wherein the bride and groom choose through trial and error what they want. This leaves my second choice which is the proposal. This is the time when one person accepts the other person's offer of marriage and moves on to their next level of relationship and the idea of a wedding is planted in their heads.

I don't think consummation charts are worth anything, seeing as they are pronounced husband and wife hours before during the wedding ceremony. Also, there's a difference between being "considered" married and actually going through with the ceremony. A couple who has lived together for some time may be considered married by many, but that doesn't get them any closer to the altar.

EDIT: Also, I did a little research on the Seventh House, since you seem to like using it's contractional and partnership rulings as proof the marriage license is what counts. It's interesting to see that several of the significations of this house have nothing to do with contracts: open enemies, theives, escaped criminals, runaways, the destination of a journey, peace or lack thereof, all manner of love questions, sweethearts (I'd like to apologize to archergirl for thinking her crazy for using the Seventh for delinating love questions when I would use the fifth, I see she was right all along), as well as those exiled and outlawed. As you can see, not all - and perhaps not even the majority - of the things that fall under the seventh house involve contracts.

[Carole]

Hi!

I have read every post on this thread. It's interesting to read about everyone's opinion on the subject because in that way I can see how beautifully Astrology works.

The focal point of this discussion is "Ceremony vs. Paperwork. Which chart takes precedence?", referring, I guess, to the legality of the agreement between two persons, so we should keep it simple, I think. 7th house rules contracts, and my sense of logic tells me that there is no marriage until a contract is signed by both of the partners.

In this part of the world where I live (I know customs vary from culture to culture), people have a civil marriage and then, if they want, a religious marriage also. But they cannot have a religious ceremony if they didn't have a civil marriage first. They are husband and wife as soon as they sign that contract, whether they have a religious ceremony celebrated a week later or not.


Carole

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

Here in my part of the world, the couple has to have the ceremony before they can sign the license. In fact, it was at my parent's wedding where the maid of honor signed the license as a witness. So, I really don't think that is a good argument. Also, you and astro.teacher fail to explain why the signing is what is important as opposed to the approval of the license.

7th house rules contracts

That may be true, but as you can see from my previous post, not everything ruled by the Seventh is related to contracts, so why do you assume that this is proof?

[Carole]

Kaiousei:

I was just giving my opinion (right or wrong) on the subject after having read the posts. It was not at all addressed to you or anyone else in particular.

If in your part of the world customs are different, I understand that, and it's something I stated in my post for the careful reader to notice.

I was referring to the heart of the issue, which seems to be if one of the two charts takes precedence over the other, and I gave my opinion from my own perspective, as it should be.

Here, as soon as the couple sign the paper, their marriage is valid because of the authority that lawyers/judges are granted by the Law School. The document can be registered years after the signing, but the marriage is valid from the date of the signing.

Of course the 7th house not only rules contracts, as every Astrology student knows.

Again, from my own perspective.

Carole

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

I never said it was aimed at me, nor did I give any hint that I took it that way. The fact of the matter is, you posted your opinion in the middle of a debate. To make it "worse" your opinion was the opposite of mine, which gave me the "right" to refute your points. However, I must say I'm upset and disappointed that I even have to go into this explaination after you posted your opinion and then claimed passivism after I ambush and cut off the retreat, so to speak.

I was referring to the heart of the issue, which seems to be if one of the two charts takes precedence over the other, and I gave my opinion from my own perspective, as it should be.

Indeed, as were my posts, astro.teacher's, fensi88's, Unukalhai's, ramsye's and Draco's. We've all posted our opinions and backed them up with logic as well as refuting previous points from those who feel opposite our own. The way you carry on, you seem to suggest that your post was assumed to be encased in the Girdle of Melian, and I don't like this idea.

Here, as soon as the couple sign the paper, their marriage is valid because of the authority that lawyers/judges are granted by the Law School. The document can be registered years after the signing, but the marriage is valid from the date of the signing.

This is actually a very interesting point. Where are you from? If you don't mind my asking. In the U.S., different states have different laws about it, but most - if not all - require a ceremony first. After the ceremony, the groom, bride, the person who married them (whether judge or preist), and a witness or two must sign it. The certificate is then filed and then a waiting period occurs wherein the couple has their blood and genes examined for a myriad of sexually transmitted and genetic diseases, and their family trees are researched to insure there is no accidental incestual marriage. It's only after this is complete that the marriage is either approved or declined.

Of course the 7th house not only rules contracts, as every Astrology student knows.

Then why even make the point of it? It's like sewing your own body bag.

Also from my own perspective.

[Carole]

Kaiousei wrote:

The fact of the matter is, you posted your opinion in the middle of a debate. To make it "worse" your opinion was the opposite of mine, which gave me the "right" to refute your points.

I didn't know the thread was closed to new posts. I thought everyone here had the right to post their thinking about any subject.

If the problem you seem to have is that my opinion is different from yours, then yes, you have a problem. A problem with others' points of view.

Everyone has the right to refute other's opinion without being rude. I don't like arguing for the sake of arguing. And I don't understand impoliteness or intolerance.

Indeed, as were my posts, astro.teacher's, fensi88's, Unukalhai's, ramsye's and Draco's. We've all posted our opinions and backed them up with logic as well as refuting previous points from those who feel opposite our own. The way you carry on, you seem to suggest that your post was assumed to be encased in the Girdle of Melian, and I don't like this idea.

I read what the rest of users of this forum who also posted on this thread wrote. I didn't find their posts impolite or harsh in any ways, though. They wrote their points of view without being defensive as if they were personally attacked.

The way I carry on, as you said, and the impression you got of it is only that. Your impression. Not necessarily the truth.

I could keep on but I'll cut if off right here, because as I said before, I am not the type of person who argues just for pleasure. I like a good debate whenever an interchange of ideas is possible, but with a constructive goal and attitude. Otherwise, the situation becomes a useless war where bullets are shot everywhere without reason.

Carole

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

I didn't know the thread was closed to new posts.

Never said or suggested it was. After my second or third post in this thread I had intended to stop for a time and wait for others to join in, but the excitement of the debate carried me away and I continued posting.

I thought everyone here had the right to post their thinking about any subject.

They do. What irks me is when people post and then get taken aback when someone refutes their post. Your views are behind no shield. Posting in a thread is showing the world what you think, and it hangs it up to be refuted and points in it to be argued should the situation call. When you post you are off the sidelines and on the field.

If the problem you seem to have is that my opinion is different from yours, then yes, you have a problem. A problem with others' points of view.

I have no intention of making this personal, but thank you for giving me the option in assessing my "problem". I have no problem with people's views, simply the way they express the views and the way they carry and handle themselves.

Everyone has the right to refute other's opinion without being rude.

Indeed they do. Here you suggest that I was being rude, but I do not see it this way. You gave your opinion, I refuted your opinion with my own logic. No rudeness involved. It was only after you acted like I had commited some henious sin by doing so that I began to become annoyed. Your attempts at both shielding yourself and trying to lead me back to the point as if I were a stray child were not at all welcome. I may still legally be a child, but I can razz with the best.

[Draco]

Without the paperwork there is no marriage.

Only in the legal sense would there be no marriage. You could on another level of significance say that without consumation there is no marriage, but only in the physical sense. Without a wedding ceremony in the first place there is certainly no marriage, there is no subsequent signing of contracts or consumation, so it is the wedding from which all other events pertaining to the joining together in matrimony flow.

When I say that I consider the event chart for the wedding ritual to be the most important, I am speaking in terms of electional astrology, and that the beginning of the ceremony should be the focus. As far as I am aware, the signing of a contract to legalise the marriage comes about after the ceremony has taken place, as does the consumation, both of these events are significant moments pertaining to the life of the marriage and make for interesting event charts in themselves, but neither can take place until the ceremony has taken place and both must necessarily occur as a consequence of the ceremony, and so are embodied within the election or event chart of the wedding.

As I said before, the marriage can be taken from the moment of engagement since its ( as well Ritual magic) asking the person to marry them and them say yes.

It can't. The moment a person's proposal is accepted isn't the start of the marriage but the start of the engagement, which is a different thing. A contract isn't drawn up between two people to engage, it doesn't mean they are not engaged, it's the ritual act that confirms it.

Thus they are married under your definition

Thus, they are not married under my definition as I have pointed out, but by your analogy.

But the 7th House rules over CONTRACTS and thus I see no reason why it would be any different in this case simply because its more sentimental.

You're shouting about contracts which I am already aware is a seventh house matter. However, the seventh is also the house of open enemies, but we do not draw up contracts with them in order for them to be such. It is true that the seventh house would have much to do with the event chart for when the couple sign the wedding contract, but also with the event for the consumation of the marriage and the wedding ceremony, as these are also seventh house issues.

You are being very deceptive with this analogy.

I don't understand how when I said, 'In the same way we determine our horoscopes from the time at which we were born, not the time at which our birth is registered, despite the fact that before such a time, according to the law, we do not officially exist.', I was deemed to be being 'deceptive'.

I'm not confusing seventh house contracts with third house record-keeping, I'm drawing a parallel between how the signing of documentation is to a wedding what the registration of a birth is to a person. The event pertains to the strictly legal aspects of the event. A person does not exist legally until their birth details have been registered, but the child is named and known long before the person is registered as an official entity, which is an event that would make for interesting exploration in itself, but it is the chart of the birth from which the emergence of the personality is considered. In the same way, the submitting of the union to law in regards to a marriage, is an event chart pertaining to the legal aspects of the marriage, and so is more comparable to such subsequent events, such as the breaking of the marriage laws, or the signing of divorce papers.

You assume that the birth of the marriage is after the ceremony is complete.

I don't. I determine that the birth of the marriage is the beginning of the ceremony, at least for electional purposes. This is because this is the event from which the other events proceed, such as the swapping of rings, the signing of the marriage documents, the consumation of the marriage. These events will stem from the initial event which is the ceremony, should the election for the ceremony have been wise, then these subsequent events flowing from it will fall out at fortuitous times. If the wedding ceremony occurs on a bad day, the subsequent commital of the union to paper etc., is never going to be a good thing.

Common sense says thats quite an illogical and challenging task to undertake, any wedding planner would laugh at you if you were to suggest having the ceremonial I do's at an EXACT time.

So would I, and explain that the election for the time of the commencement of the ceremony is the appropriate data to use.