Daylight Savings Time and Astrology

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

Strangest thing. Recently I was doing a horary chart for my Spanish teacher/client concerning a radio that had been misplaced at school. So, I quickly threw up a horary chart using my astrology program (Astrology for Windows) and proceeded to interpret the chart as it was.

It wasn't until a couple of days after I had successfully retrieved the radio (marking my first successful horary that I've done with NO help, by the way) that I realized the chart I created was incorrect. Thanks to our new 2007 policy on Daylights Saving Time, we went into it early this year and AfW - which is about a year or two old - did not know to alert me of the time change so that I could adjust it as needed.

I was horrified, but I wondered why the horary I cast and read turned out to give me the correct answer. In the chart I made, the radio was Sol in Taurus in the eleventh house. In the "correct" chart, it was Luna in Scorpio in the fifth house, Luna was also the significator of the querent. So...completely opposite significators and thus completely opposite directions! The radio was found in the school's auditorium, which is located to the SSE of where the question was ask. This corresponded to both the Taurus Sign direction and the eleventh house direction. The NorthNorthWestern direction of Luna would have taken me to venture to the elementary school.

Anyway, I say all of this to wonder why the radio would be found in the completely opposite direction of where the "correct" chart says it was? The radio was found in the auditorium (as previously stated) on the bottom step that led from the floor to the stage. When I saw the Taurus placement I immediately ruled out any of the top floors and the eleventh house placement told me to eliminate the entire building wherein the Spanish classroom is located, but I knew it was still on the school grounds (succedant houses = not here, but not far either). My first thought was the art room, since Taurus is an artistic sign and the art room is located on the bottom floor, but unfortunately it is also located just under the Spanish room in the same building. When my teacher suggested the auditorium, I thought it odd, so I agreed to check it out and on my way over there I thought about it and came to realize that it had to be there, near the floor. Sol and Leo are performing, fiery signs, so there would be no better place for it to be than a place of performing arts. I do not know where Luna in Scorpio would have led me...but just that it was located at the exact opposite part of the chart tells me it couldn't have been correct.

Has anyone else had a similar experience or am I all alone in this strange little boat?

P.S. To Arian (who I hope loves my signiture) and Draco (who I'm cursed to keep just barely missing on the forum), feel free to move this thread if you don't feel its place is here. I was originally going to post it in the horary section - as it was a horary chart that alerted me to it - but felt this may allow for more of a generalization umbrella.

-祈祷師 の 星

[astro.teacher]

Actually this is quite an interesting topic. I had a chart that fell under daylight savings time and as I went to interpret it, I found it fairly incorrect and inconsistant (astro.com had automatically adjusted to daylight savings time). I set the time as though daylight savings had never happened and it described the individual to the T. I thought that was a fairly interesting occurance (which actually validates the accurancy of Astrology).

As for your experience, are you sure you chose the correct significator for the radio? Modern inventions can be quite difficult to find the significators so its fairly easy to misinterpret that.

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

As for your experience, are you sure you chose the correct significator for the radio? Modern inventions can be quite difficult to find the significators so its fairly easy to misinterpret that.

Yes, there was no trickety-trick to identifiying the radio as it was my Spanish teacher's. She having asked the question makes her the Ascendant and since the radio is her own object, it becomes the second.

Actually this is quite an interesting topic. I had a chart that fell under daylight savings time and as I went to interpret it, I found it fairly incorrect and inconsistant (astro.com had automatically adjusted to daylight savings time). I set the time as though daylight savings had never happened and it described the individual to the T. I thought that was a fairly interesting occurance (which actually validates the accurancy of Astrology).

You have no idea how happy you've made me telling me this. I thought I was the only one who had had such an experience, and it's nice not to be so alone.

-祈祷師 の 星

[astro.teacher]

Yes, there was no trickety-trick to identifiying the radio as it was my Spanish teacher's. She having asked the question makes her the Ascendant and since the radio is her own object, it becomes the second.

Remember that the 2nd just doesnt rule over every possession that isnt bolted down, it represents something on monetary value, whether that be money, precious metals, precious stones, silverware, things that are valued much in society that are possessed by that person in order to better their status in society. You may want to try analyzing the chart with another significator, maybe that of communication (for a radio is a method of communication), or entertainment? Test these out and see which is more accurate. I believe the main problem with a lot of missing object horary charts is the automatic assumption that just because it can be picked up and moved its represented by the 2nd. Its a common mistake, try it out and let us know the outcome. Im interested to see the significator of the Radio.

You have no idea how happy you've made me telling me this. I thought I was the only one who had had such an experience, and it's nice not to be so alone.

Daylight savings is a modern invention so its not to hard to see why it would be incorrect. Im sure many more people will add their experiences as well.

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

Remember that the 2nd just doesnt rule over every possession that isnt bolted down, it represents something on monetary value, whether that be money, precious metals, precious stones, silverware, things that are valued much in society that are possessed by that person in order to better their status in society. You may want to try analyzing the chart with another significator, maybe that of communication (for a radio is a method of communication), or entertainment? Test these out and see which is more accurate. I believe the main problem with a lot of missing object horary charts is the automatic assumption that just because it can be picked up and moved its represented by the 2nd. Its a common mistake, try it out and let us know the outcome. Im interested to see the significator of the Radio.

Trust me, there are rules I've memorized concerning horary astrology. Lilly says about 'To find a thing hid or mislaid': "Be careful to take your Ascendant exactly, and consider the nature of the Question, viz. whose Goods, or to whom the thing missing, or lost, or inquired after did appertain; if the Goods be the Querent's own Commodity, then see to the Lord of the second..."

I follow no assumed rule that if it can be picked up and moved it's a second house object. In my understanding, if you own it, it's your second house; there are few exceptions. Since it was my Spanish teacher's radio and she asked the question, she became the Ascen and the radio became house number two, since it's her goods. On the flip side, were I asking "Where is Mrs. J's radio" the radio would then become a tenth house object.

Daylight savings is a modern invention so its not to hard to see why it would be incorrect. Im sure many more people will add their experiences as well.

It is true that it's a modern invention, but it makes one wonder. Standard time for me is -6, DST is -5. This is supposed to correct the hour jump in Spring. If it were 12 o'clock here under -5, then it is really 1 o'clock, which is where the Sun is situated in the sky. Sol does not follow our time, but he sets his pace and ours. So, this little setting of basically moving forward one timezone corrects the time problem, at least, supposedly.
-祈祷師 の 星

[astro.teacher]

"Be careful to take your Ascendant exactly, and consider the nature of the Question, viz. whose Goods, or to whom the thing missing, or lost, or inquired after did appertain; if the Goods be the Querent's own Commodity, then see to the Lord of the second..."

You have to remember that when Goods went missing in Lillys time, they were usually something of high value, that being silverware, candle holders & etc. (especially under the fear their servants have pawned them off), or Animals (dogs, cattle, & etc.). No one would waste their money on asking Horary questions with regards to a missing shoe or any other missing generic item (which is especially important to separate generic from monetary). I see nothing that says that every possession of the native is to be considered under the 2nd House, it doesnt define goods as generic possessions. As I said previously, the traditional terminology of Goods is usually something of value (that involves trading). However, I still think you should try shifting the significators to the one I mentioned and see if that changes the location. I mean you stated that the interpretation concerning the 2nd House was wrong, so it obviously falls under a different significator than the 2nd. Let me know.

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

No, the second house of the first chart was correct. It was only after I corrected my error concerning DST that the second house became incorrect, saying that it was in the completely opposite direction. I don't think differentiating between the item is such a grand idea, especially if you're going to use an argument that begins with "In Lilly's time...".

I see nothing that says that every possession of the native is to be considered under the 2nd House,

Had you read the passage I posted, you would have read something that suggested just that. I see nothing that says it shouldn't. Especially considering Lilly himself makes no differentiation between things of "value" and things that are of "no merit". I don't believe astrology would be so shallow and picky as to assign a thing a house based on monetary (which is man-made by the way) worth.

However, this is not the point of this thread. The point being to see if there is anyone else like us who has had problems with Daylight and Standard Time charts. I am, however, glad to see that someone else experienced something similar.

-祈祷師 の 星

[holly]

After recently learning how to cast a chart without the aid of a computer, I find the question of time very interesting.

One method I follow, instructs us to calculate True Local Time. 12 noon by the clock doesn't necessarily mean that the sun is directly overhead. By the clock, including daylight savings time, I was born at 7:03 pm. I was actually born at 5:15pm (roughly) by True Local Time. However, taking this into consideration, I still produce the same chart as astro.com.

I find it quite surprising that astro.com produced the incorrect time. Now I will have to go and hand calculate every important chart, just to be sure I have the right one!

[Draco]

Hi Kaiousei.

I believe that what you experienced is a lesson from astrology. Firstly, to remember that you are to adjust the timezone these days, secondly, about how an apparently 'wrong' chart can be 'right'.

I have experienced this is in the past. I will have entered the wrong coordinates or the wrong hour or timezone, only to discover that the 'wrong' chart contains all the significant information, at least, it seems to work this way in horary.

This is because, if we work with astrology, we must accept that anything that happens in a moment in time has the qualities of that moment in time, and that includes those moments encompassed in asking a question with unwittingly incorrect data, If we do not know that the data is inaccurate. we're not meant to know. It is signficant if not accurate, or it wouldn't have happened at that moment in time.

John Frawley talks about Lilly's horary charts in Christian Astrology, and how it is that we may discover these days when we compute his charts, an aspect was in fact applying or separating, when Lilly thought otherwise because his calculations were less precise, and yet his interpretations came true anyway. If I can find the passage I'll quote it, or at least paraphrase to not breach copyright.

It would be interesting if you would put up both charts, the one you interpreted correctly with the 'incorrect' time, and the one with the 'correct' time. Then we can explore.

Further to the debate between Aaron and I upon when possessions and vehicles are to be found in the second and third, I was of the opinion that one's vehicle is always the second, and Aaron, always the third.

However, recently I did think of an instance that a vehicle was definately third and not second, and that was in a event chart.

I had arranged to meet somebody travelling in on a train, but when the train arrived and I waited for the person I was meeting to disembark, no one came. In the event chart for when the train should have arrived, then the train, the vehicle, is a third house matter, because it is a train, not my train, or his or her train, but just a train in general, a journey, and so the train and the train station, both come under the third house.

There may be circumstances where I may seek to consider the train as a publicly or privately owned property, in which case it would be the second from the fourth or second from the tenth, if the nature of the event required such distinction, but as I see the train as only a mode of transport, and does not belong to me or anyone I can identify, it is third.

The radio in this case is the teacher's possession and is second from the teacher's house.

The second does not only pertain to things of monetary value.

If I receive a card on Valentine's day, it's monetary value may be little, but it's sentimental value is great, and as my valuable, it is second house. If I find an old button in the street, and I happen to be a collector of buttons, then the button becomes second house as part of my collection, yet for money it is worth nothing, but it has value to the button-collector.

The second house is not just that which we value as our own but also the house of bodyguards and attorneys, those who not merely serve us, but put their neck on the line in the interests of our welfare, it is those and that which shields us. The second house is therefore our armour, and so it is associated with clothing, the preserver of our modesty and frailty. The second house is that which supports our health, and so as the house of substance it is nourishment, and so our food.

Natural significators are also worth paying attention to, and in this case the radio is Mercury, as a communciation device.

What house would the radio be found in other than the second from the teacher's?

[Leonine9]

Hello,

What about changed time zones' effects on natal charts? For example, house cusps were changed when War Time was in effect. I wonder if those born during the war feel their charts are "off?"

Leonine9