Lost car keys - pls help!!!

indigojenardu · #1 04-26-2007, 01:27 PM

Hi everyone -

I'm selling my car.

Only I've lost the car keys

I can't imagine how as it was in my handbag. Or so I thought. So...I asked the question "where are my lost car keys?"

hope I get an answer soon because the auction is ending soon and someone's bid on the thing!!!

Many thanks if you can help!

Indigo x

archergirl · #2 04-26-2007, 03:41 PM

Hello,

I am not especially au fait with missing things, but if we take the 2nd for your missing keys, we find them as Mercury, in Aries in the 9th.

The 9th rules south by southwest, and has rulership over books; it may be somewhere on a bookshelf, near where you keep your passport or legal documents, etc.

Aries rules places like fireplaces and radiators (sources of heat); also ceilings and plaster, so maybe high up, on a shelf over a radiator or on the mantelpiece? Aries rules 'East', so maybe a southwest-facing room, in the eastern corner?

Just a guess. I'll be interested to see where you find them. You *will* find them, fairly soon, as the Moon in Virgo is 2 degrees from the ascendant.

The keys are maybe 'hidden in plain sight', as Mercury is combust, but in an 'open' house/sign.

Let us know how it turns out!

I'll attach a link to the Skyscript site, which ought to be more help than I am!

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/wit.html

Good luck,
AG

indigojenardu · #3 04-26-2007, 04:19 PM

But...as someone has bid on the car - are the car keys then still mine? If so, then should we look somewhere else in the chart?

Or because the car is still in my possession...

I'll look on the shelves first :-)

archergirl · #4 04-26-2007, 04:23 PM

The car is still in your possession until they take ownership of it. The keys are still yours; hence the 2nd house. We would use the 2nd house for lost keys even if they *didn't* belong to you anymore!

AG

[Edit] Having read through Deb Houlding's stuff, it may not be on a shelf; perhaps on a desk (Mercury) near a radiator; the Moon in an earth sign may mean they are closer to the floor.

astro.teacher · #5 04-27-2007, 02:47 AM

The Ascendant of this Horary is WAY too early, that should be considered. You may just want to tell the person bidding that you have misplaced the keys but will sign over the title to them. Maybe get some new ones cast?

I disagree however that the second House should be used in this case (people tend to jump there way to quickly) but im sure many readers here who have read my posts already understand my reasoning for this. I would look to the 3rd House and its Lord being that cars are generally used for short distance traveling.

Draco · #6 04-27-2007, 04:32 AM

With the consideration of the early ascendant, are you completely sure that you exhausted all possibilities in looking for the keys?

You may have just thought, 'Oh, I'll cast a horary, and then I won't have to carry on looking, the chart will tell me where they are'.

For a horary to be meaningful, there has to be a real need to know, the situation needs to have escalated to crisis, or should I say, you need to be in a situation in which you really feel that there is no alternative other than to consult God via astrology (to me, horary is a form of prayer).

Think of those rare occasions in life in which you have been so desperate that whether in your head, your heart or out loud you have been pleading with a higher power for information, a sign, an indication of how to proceed, of what to do, or where to go. These moments are the most suitable of all to cast horaries.

It's funny how even athiests will magic up a belief in a higher power to plead with in times of crisis.

This is why I don't interpret horaries on here as often as I used to, because I have no way of knowing which questions were asked in moments of an absolute need to know, crunch time, crisis point, and which ones are flippant curiosity or excuses for shirking one's own responsibilities in doing what needs to be done, although this is often there in the chart. Usually those true horaries, the prayers, are obvious from the nature of what has been, and how it has been, asked.

I'm going on about all this because the chart seems to indicate, even without looking at it in any depth, that the keys are not lost at all, you haven't had a proper look or exhausted all possibilities.

Your post implies that you have perhaps not looked a great deal further than your handbag before casting the chart, as usually when in crisis people will say 'I've been looking here, looking there, looking everywhere, please help, what am I going to do!'.

I would cast horaries in Regiomontanus, particularly in questions of 'where' as it is a space-based system, Placidus for 'when' as it is time-based, but this is your chart, so that's none of my business.

Not only is the ascendant early, but the Moon, which signifies wandering objects in general, is conjoined the ascendant (with you), but the first and second cusp are signified by the same planet, another indication that they are still with you, so are not 'lost' as such. and are able to be found. Look!

Quote:

I would look to the 3rd House and its Lord being that cars are generally used for short distance traveling.

The car isn't the journey though is it?

Why is a lover the seventh and not the fifth?

astro.teacher · #7 04-27-2007, 05:42 AM

Draco, your post beautifully conveyed every single feeling I have towards Horary Astrology and those who cast Horary charts simply because its "easy". Very well written and very true! I wish more people lived by that standard. Horary is the most abused form of Astrology and even Traditional authors speak about those in their time who vehemently abuse the science and art for their own gain (making reference to casting meaningless Horary charts). So you definately deserve applause for that post!

Quote:

The car isn't the journey though is it?

Technically its not but it is the method of carrying on the journey, the equipment if you will. It is a vehicle in which one gets from place to place and has no other purpose but short distance journeys. Its purpose I believe is what makes it a 3rd House matter. Do you have opposing feelings towards this? I have yet to see an Astrological mention of carriages which I find quite strange. Have you read anything concerning the association of carriages with the Houses/Planets/Signs? If there are I believe that would settle it.

Quote:

Why is a lover the seventh and not the fifth?

Lovers generally are ruled by the 5th, where as marriage partners by the seventh as im sure you are aware of. Im sure either could be debated, I believe it depends on the definition of a "lover" (case by case), whether that be more romantic or sexual in nature and whether your goal is a partnership or a fling.

fensi88 · #8 04-27-2007, 05:47 AM

Because POF is in 4 house, key is in your house still. Me, you, will very soon trine POF, that mean you will find it!
POF in 4 house indicate North direction.
Look in the upper part of the room or house(POF is on last degree). Near some "things" in connect with church (icon) or near sport kit (POF in Sag).
Near blue, red or yellow colour.(POF in Sag).
Good luck!

indigojenardu · #9 04-27-2007, 09:17 AM

Hi there.

I have just found it on a shelf, next to my National insurance documents, in the kitchen (I don't go in the kitchen much so it really is the last place I would have looked, but I must have gone in there at some point!)

Re crises - at that time I was anxious for them - I did say that I thought I'd put them in my handbag, but I didn't really give much more information than that. I had been looking for them for a while.

Thanks x

indigojenardu · #10 04-27-2007, 09:17 AM

Cheers for all of your help!!!!!! Excellent excellent excellent excellent :-D

indigojenardu · #11 04-27-2007, 09:20 AM

The 9th rules south by southwest, and has rulership over books; it may be somewhere on a bookshelf, near where you keep your passport or legal documents, etc.

Aries rules places like fireplaces and radiators (sources of heat); also ceilings and plaster, so maybe high up, on a shelf over a radiator or on the mantelpiece? Aries rules 'East', so maybe a southwest-facing room, in the eastern corner?

______________________________________

My kitchen is southwest.
It's hot obviously and it was on a shelf. Spot on. Excellent excellent excellent

indigojenardu · #12 04-27-2007, 09:25 AM

I would cast horaries in Regiomontanus, particularly in questions of 'where' as it is a space-based system, Placidus for 'when' as it is time-based, but this is your chart, so that's none of my business.

_ I'm a junior...I will think more carefully before casting horaries - apologies if I have caused offence by this. :-(

archergirl · #13 04-27-2007, 09:59 AM

Oh FAB! I am so CHUFFED I got it right! Yay!

And well done for finding your keys, btw!

Best,
AG

PS. I don't think there's anything wrong with immediately casting a chart for a lost something. I recently cast a chart for one of my guinea pigs, who had gone AWOL and whom I KNEW had to be in the back garden or somewhere close, but as the back garden is a jungle I had no idea where to start looking. The chart led me right to her, hiding in a bush on a higher part of the garden, next to the oil tank.

I also don't think that a chart is totally unreadable simply because it has an early ascendant. Sometimes it seems to indicate a 'situation-in-the-making', which is appropriate if someone has just lost something and is looking for it.

I do Regiomontanus houses for every chart I do, not Placidus. But this is a personal preference. Whatever works for you, I say!

Oh, I'm so chuffed!

[Edit] and I will remember this for future horaries: since you and the lost object were represented by Mercury, take the querent as the Moon and the object as the 2nd significator. OH. If it were so simple ALL the time!

indigojenardu · #14 04-27-2007, 10:42 AM

i am also represented as I am a gemini ;-)

fensi88 · #15 04-27-2007, 10:51 AM

Please tell us something about colours where you found it!

Draco · #16 04-27-2007, 10:58 AM

Hi Indigo.

Quote:

...are you completely sure that you exhausted all possibilities in looking for the keys?

Quote:

I don't go in the kitchen much so it really is the last place I would have looked, but I must have gone in there at some point!

There you go then, you hadn't looked properly.

See what I mean? Had you had an absolutely thorough search and exhausted every possibility, as the chart suggested you hadn't, you would have found them and the horary would not have needed to have been asked.

I wonder, was it because of the suggestion that you had not exhausted every possibility that inspired you to search the kitchen?

Despite this, well done to Archer.

Although didn't you say it might not be on a shelf or was that an error?

Hi Aaron.

The reason I asked why are lovers not seen in the fifth, is because I honestly didn't think that you would see lovers in the fifth, as I thought you would see it that to do so would be to confuse a lover with what we do with them.

This is the first time I have known one with a mind for tradition to see it this way.

The point I was making was to see a car as third, is similarly, to confuse the object with it's function. I don't think that not finding a reference to carriages as second house is enough to settle the matter.

Quote:

Its purpose I believe is what makes it a 3rd House matter.

You're entitled to your beliefs, but I'm really suprised at you!

archergirl · #17 04-27-2007, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Despite this, well done to Archer. Although didn't you say it might not be on a shelf or was that an error?

Well, since I'm not especially well-practised in lost objects horaries, I felt it prudent to cover all bases, just in case.

I tend to read charts somewhat intuitively, which is why I first felt it might be on a 'bookshelf', but looking through Deb's stuff I wasn't sure whether to use the indicators for the *moon* or the indicators for *Mercury*, since the object is sometimes represented by one, and sometimes the other, from what I can gather.

I'll stick to my intuitive readings, methinks...

Best,
AG

indigojenardu · #18 04-27-2007, 08:07 PM

I wonder, was it because of the suggestion that you had not exhausted every possibility that inspired you to search the kitchen?

No, it was the heat and shelves as per archergirl's interpretation. I also have a desk next to a radiator and I searched there too. I would not have gone in the kitchen, because it is kind of out of bounds to me,

I tend not to cook - My husband does all the cooking. I'm a CAN cook but won't cook. So the kitchen is a foreign place to me. :-) so it just wasn't a possibility - I don't know if you can see that from my perspective? ;-)

astro.teacher · #19 04-27-2007, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Hi Aaron.

The reason I asked why are lovers not seen in the fifth, is because I honestly didn't think that you would see lovers in the fifth, as I thought you would see it that to do so would be to confuse a lover with what we do with them.

This is the first time I have known one with a mind for tradition to see it this way.

The point I was making was to see a car as third, is similarly, to confuse the object with it's function. I don't think that not finding a reference to carriages as second house is enough to settle the matter.

Do we not buy Houses? Sell Houses? Live in Houses? Do not all of those activities represent the 4th House (and its Lord)? Isnt our success in selling Houses, buying Houses, building Houses dictated by the state of the Lord of the 4th? We can even tell if our House is haunted by the 4th! (yes I have seen rules of exorcism in an Astrology book) These are all forms of using of a House. The form is just as important as the function. The same applies to Lovers in the 5th (granted the question is a venereal one) and Lovers in the 7th (granted the question is a partnership one). We need to use our discretion as to where to place our focus.

There is something called a general significator and a specific significator. A general significator, as with the example, of women would be the 7th (the type of women a man will marry). A specific significator of sex with women would be found in the 5th(the type of women the man will have sex with, whether virtuous virgins or "bawds"). The function of an object is what has lead it to be placed in a specific House. The Mothers function in the Natives life is described by the 10th House (and Lord thereof) is it not? I see no need why you would be shocked, this is pretty basic.

archergirl · #20 04-28-2007, 08:41 AM

Quote:

So the kitchen is a foreign place to me. :-) so it just wasn't a possibility

This probably explains why the significator, Mercury, was found in the 9th house!

AG

Draco · #21 04-28-2007, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Please tell us something about colours where you found it!

Yes, Indigo, can you tell us anything about the colours? Colours are important in Fensi's sports and lost object interpretations. I'd be interested too.

Quote:

Do we not buy Houses? Sell Houses? Live in Houses? Do not all of those activities represent the 4th House (and its Lord)?

No. If you're buying the house and asking the question, you're the first, the seller is the seventh. If you're selling the house and asking the question, you're the first, the buyer the seventh. The price is the tenth. Only the bricks and mortar of the house are the fourth.

Quote:

Isnt our success in selling Houses, buying Houses, building Houses dictated by the state of the Lord of the 4th?

No. If one makes a career on the property market in buying and selling houses, this would be the tenth, as success always is, it doesn't become fourth because of the nature of that with which we are dealing. The properties themselves would be the fourth. A person might groom dogs for a living, but the way in which they go about this would be found in the tenth, not the sixth house of dogs. Only the dogs themselves would be sixth.

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These are all forms of using of a House.

Yes, but only the house is fourth. Buying it, selling it, pricing it, demolishing it, are all found in other houses.

Quote:

The same applies to Lovers in the 5th (granted the question is a venereal one) and Lovers in the 7th (granted the question is a partnership one). We need to use our discretion as to where to place our focus

I hate to disagree with you, but I must contest this for the time being.

The spouse as a person is the seventh, the one night stand as a person is the seventh. The sex that I have with whoever I am asking the question about is the fifth.

The only time a person is ever found in the fifth is if it's your own child. I wouldn't be mixing my casual conquests up in the house of my babies.

Skyscript is a better place to discuss this issue, as members there are 95% 'traditional' in their perspective, so I'd be more interested in what they have to say on the matter, than those who might add further comment here.

Sometime I'll go over there and ask them about this, and see what the general body of opinion is over there on the matter. I respect your opinion because your other posts reflect my perspective entirely, but for now, until I have found out more, I'm sticking to my guns on this one.

Archer -

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So the kitchen is a foreign place to me.

Quote:

This probably explains why the significator, Mercury, was found in the 9th house!

Ha! Wow! Well observed...

....and, Mercury is ruler of the second, not the third.

archergirl · #22 04-28-2007, 02:37 PM

Cheers, Draco.

Quote:

Skyscript is a better place to discuss this issue, as members there are 95% 'traditional' in their perspective, so I'd be more interested in what they have to say on the matter, than those who might add further comment here.

I would second this. I believe we had a similar argument over the 11th house at one point, with MarkF, I think it was, coming down on the 11th as the potential friend/person and others arguing that a potential friend/person is the 7th, with the 11th describing the *state* of 'friendship'. I'm not sure anyone came to any conclusions other than their own...

Best,
AG

indigojenardu · #23 04-28-2007, 08:05 PM

The car has now been found a new home.

*after all this, I am quite sad, I will miss the car, it has served me well.

indigojenardu · #24 04-28-2007, 08:25 PM

OK colours.

There are two certificates, one red, one yellow nearby. The NI doc is green and white.

Nothing with sport per se, but a first aid box. Cod liver oil...and an undeveloped film I had no idea was there either lol, so I will check that out. Maybe that has some church scenes on it??

The saga continues....

*makes mental note. Must visit kitchen more.

astro.teacher · #25 04-29-2007, 08:02 AM

Draco, I respect your opinion and as like yourself I notice that we have much in common with regards to how we see a lot of issues concerning Astrology (which is actually quite rare! so I am pleased at that fact alone.). That being said I have nothing further to add, we both made our points well and if you ever do direct this to skyscript direct me to the link. It was an interesting discussion nevertheless!