Natal Retrograde Mercury conjunct Sun

[StillOne]

I saw there was another thread on this aspect but specifically dedicated to Taurus. I figured I'd open up the discussion to be more general even though I know it'll manifest differently across the horoscope.

This person has the conjunction in Leo and it's 2deg in orb and applying.

I'm curious to know if this person may be a bit impulsive or possibly speak before thinking sometimes? Possibly regretting things she had said... This is interesting since the ruler of her 3rd house is in the 10th house and conjunct the MC which usually would denote strong communication skills. The ruler in this case is Jupiter and is largely unaspected in Cancer.

I've read various thoughts on combustion, under the beams and theories that Mercury may be exempt from this. Any thoughts regarding this?

I've also read that Rx Mercury in the natal chart could possibly denote lesser than average intelligence. However, in this case, I certainly wouldn't think so as this woman is quite clever. I wouldn't say rocket scientist smart, but definitely not unintelligent.

[stainedBlue]

Originally Posted by StillOne

I've read various thoughts on combustion, under the beams and theories that Mercury may be exempt from this. Any thoughts regarding this?

I've also read that Rx Mercury in the natal chart could possibly denote lesser than average intelligence. However, in this case, I certainly wouldn't think so as this woman is quite clever. I wouldn't say rocket scientist smart, but definitely not unintelligent.

My take on combustion is that it inclines the individual to identify with the planet in question. In the case of Mercury, the person would identify themselves with their mind. For retrograde Mercury, I don't think it's lesser intelligence, I think it's a different style of learning and thinking. It's similar to the way extroverts are generally perceived more favorably than introverts. Both exist, and neither are lesser than the other. They each have their own way of approaching life, and excel in their own way.

One curiosity I've been pondering is whether there is any discernible difference between Mercury leading the Sun vs Mercury following the Sun. I don't have an answer, but I think it's relevant to the thread so I'm tossing it out there. Any thoughts?

[StillOne]

Originally Posted by stainedBlue

My take on combustion is that it inclines the individual to identify with the planet in question. In the case of Mercury, the person would identify themselves with their mind. For retrograde Mercury, I don't think it's lesser intelligence, I think it's a different style of learning and thinking. It's similar to the way extroverts are generally perceived more favorably than introverts. Both exist, and neither are lesser than the other. They each have their own way of approaching life, and excel in their own way.

Thank you StainedBlue for chiming in. I think what you say makes sense as in my chart I have Sun conjunct Uranus and it definitely affects who I am at the core. I can see that clearly. It took a long time for me to accept this but now when I do, I feel stronger since I'm being my radical, original, unique self. Lol

Back to Mercury and the Sun... I think possibly there's a more natural merging of the mind and soul. Possibly there's less dissociation and confusion.

Originally Posted by stainedBlue

One curiosity I've been pondering is whether there is any discernible difference between Mercury leading the Sun vs Mercury following the Sun. I don't have an answer, but I think it's relevant to the thread so I'm tossing it out there. Any thoughts?

I have read this somewhere as well. I think it was on this site and most likely a post by Dr. Farr. I think the way it works is that if Mercury is ahead of the Sun in motion that it is a stronger more powerful Mercury. So that would be a Mercury that is more clockwise ahead of the Sun.

I think it's an interesting topic since, obviously, Mercury is often found so close to the Sun. I'm unsure how the Retrograde manifests natally since when you research that you usually end up finding information about transiting Mercury going Retrograde (online anyway).

[JUPITERASC]

Originally Posted by StillOne

I'm unsure how the Retrograde manifests natally since when you research that you usually end up finding information about transiting Mercury going Retrograde (online anyway).

Ancient astrology has an interesting view of retrograde planets. A planet when retrograde is said to be 'walking backwards' and - not unexpectedly - any planet in such a condition was described as 'having difficulty with conducting its business' and/or being 'unable to conduct its business'

[tsmall]

I think that Mercury's position relative to the Sun has more to do with determining which sect he will belong to. All the other planets are classified as either nocturnal or diurnal by nature, but Mercury takes his cue from the Sun. If going before, diurnal, if after, nocturnal. At least I think I got that right without looking it up again. Not enough coffee yet this morning.

A quick thought on the idea of Mercury rx. I think (this is only my idea, so feel free to poke holes in it) that traditionally when we talk about retrograde planets being unfit to conduct their business it is a different concept from the idea that Mercury represents the intellect (along with the Moon.) Mercury's business involves the houses he rules, and he has some influence on the house he finds himself in. This is an external manifestation vs. an internal one. As someone with natal Mercury rx, I can tell you that my mind works just fine.

[StillOne]

Originally Posted by JUPITERASC

Ancient astrology has an interesting view of retrograde planets. A planet when retrograde is said to be 'walking backwards' and - not unexpectedly - any planet in such a condition was described as 'having difficulty with conducting its business' and/or being 'unable to conduct its business'

Thanks Jupiter, it indeed is an interesting visual to imagine Mercury moving backwards and to contemplate how that would impact someone... Anyhow, as I mentioned in the OP, this woman is most certainly not unintelligent. However, maybe she has a different view on the world? She is very artistic and tends to see things in a different light...

Originally Posted by tsmall

I think that Mercury's position relative to the Sun has more to do with determining which sect he will belong to. All the other planets are classified as either nocturnal or diurnal by nature, but Mercury takes his cue from the Sun. If going before, diurnal, if after, nocturnal. At least I think I got that right without looking it up again. Not enough coffee yet this morning.

Interesting, I wasn't aware of this. If you care to expand after your coffee please feel free!

Originally Posted by tsmall

A quick thought on the idea of Mercury rx. I think (this is only my idea, so feel free to poke holes in it) that traditionally when we talk about retrograde planets being unfit to conduct their business it is a different concept from the idea that Mercury represents the intellect (along with the Moon.) Mercury's business involves the houses he rules, and he has some influence on the house he finds himself in. This is an external manifestation vs. an internal one. As someone with natal Mercury rx, I can tell you that my mind works just fine.

Thanks for the confirmation on this particular myth about Rx Mercury. I would say that it's sign and aspects would impart more trouble than just being retrograde.

It's interesting as I've read that retrograde motion in the natal chart tends to lend to a more "internalized" nature of the planet. For example, my Mars is Rx in my chart and I know that I'm more competitive with myself than with others. I don't like competition with others, rather I enjoy cooperation. However, when talking about Mercury, how can an already internal planet be more internal? It doesn't make sense when we talk about Mercury in this way...

[JUPITERASC]

Originally Posted by StillOne

..........However, when talking about Mercury, how can an already internal planet be more internal? It doesn't make sense when we talk about Mercury in this way...

Could you explain why you categorize Mercury as being 'an already internal planet?'

[StillOne]

Originally Posted by JUPITERASC

Could you explain why you categorize Mercury as being 'an already internal planet?'

Sorry, guess my phrasing wasn't all that hot on that. I meant, since Mercury tends to manfiest itself internally as with intelligence and thought. However, I can see how then with speech that it would be external as well... when you communicate with others, for example.

So possibly tsmall can give us a bit of insight here. I wonder if there's trouble in communicating in anyway? LIke say, talking? Since, I see tsmall communicates extremely effectively over written media as does the native with the chart in the OP, I suppose Mercury Rx doesn't affect the native in this area.

[JUPITERASC]

Originally Posted by StillOne

Sorry, guess my phrasing wasn't all that hot on that. I meant, since Mercury tends to manfiest itself internally as with intelligence and thought. However, I can see how then with speech that it would be external as well... when you communicate with others, for example.

Forms/ways of communication are many and varied. e.g. to name just a few, these include dance, mime, theatre, acting, writing, touch, hieroglyphics, art, sculpture, singing, verbal languages, symbolic language such as astrology, mathematics, geometry and in recent times, cinema, t.v. radio, internet, mobile phones

[Bina]

Originally Posted by StillOne

I'm unsure how the Retrograde manifests natally since when you research that you usually end up finding information about transiting Mercury going Retrograde (online anyway).

some interesting links about retrograde planets in the natal chart and their meanings:

http://www.pathwaytoascension.com/as...y/lesson5.html

http://www.skyviewzone.com/astrology...adeplanets.htm

http://www.arlenekramer.net/astrology11.asp

[StillOne]

Originally Posted by JUPITERASC

Forms/ways of communication are many and varied. e.g. to name just a few, these include dance, mime, theatre, acting, writing, touch, hieroglyphics, art, sculpture, singing, verbal languages, symbolic language such as astrology, mathematics, geometry and in recent times, cinema, t.v. radio, internet, mobile phones

Thanks!

Originally Posted by Bina

some interesting links about retrograde planets in the natal chart and their meanings:

http://www.pathwaytoascension.com/as...y/lesson5.html

http://www.skyviewzone.com/astrology...adeplanets.htm

http://www.arlenekramer.net/astrology11.asp

Thanks Bina! Love what that first link has to say. That first link confirms some of what I'm thinking and includes elements of what JupiterAsc just listed as other forms of communication.

Loved this one from the last link:

Retrograde (Rx) Mercury in the natal chart is still Mercury, however modified in its action. It is still the planet of communication, the five senses, and the intellect. The function of the Rx Mercury will be expressed as something other than the expected, something away from the norm. Perhaps a few of the senses will be extraordinary. Perhaps the verbal ability will be noteworthy. How about intellectual function? Ask anyone with a natal retrograde Mercury, and he will tell you that his mind and intellect are extraordinary and he will shyly admit to genius.

[tsmall]

Originally Posted by StillOne

Sorry, guess my phrasing wasn't all that hot on that. I meant, since Mercury tends to manifest itself internally as with intelligence and thought. However, I can see how then with speech that it would be external as well... when you communicate with others, for example.

So possibly tsmall can give us a bit of insight here. I wonder if there's trouble in communicating in anyway? Like say, talking? Since, I see tsmall communicates extremely effectively over written media as does the native with the chart in the OP, I suppose Mercury Rx doesn't affect the native in this area.

Sorry, internet is spotty today. Mercury rx?

Well, tsmall has no problem communicating in any way. Speaking, writing, singing, acting, etc. Not terribly artistic, but I do passably well at pictionary.

StillOne, what I meant by internal vs. external is that Mercury isn't just about one (or possibly several) aspects of the individual personality. Remember that traditionally a natal chart wasn't used as a psychological tool for analyzing the native--though it certainly could be used that way even following traditional theories. Rather, it was used to predict how the native's life would be. This was/is the reason we examine the condition of the planet in the sign before we look at the aspects it makes. Although yes those aspects will help determine the end result.

Consider someone with a debilitated Mercury rx. This wouldn't necessarily mean that person wasn't smart, but that maybe the affairs of the houses in the natal chart that fall in Gemini and Virgo won't go so smoothly, or as planned. Here's a very brief and overly general idea:

Using my tropical chart, I have Mercury rx in Libra, combust the Sun and conjunct Jupiter and the ASC. Mercury rules my 9th house, Gemini. Now, you would think that would indicate someone pretty smart, with Jupiter there, and on the ASC it would show outwardly. There was no question in my youth that I would go on to college, possibly graduate school, and in general do something with all that intelligence. But Mercury's condition actually tells the true story. I only went to university for one year, and then circumstances led me to leave (always with the expectation that someday I would go back) and 25 years later I still haven't. Make sense?

Oh, and because Mercury is rising after the Sun, he is nocturnal in a day chart. That makes him out of sect, sort of like being out of place. And quite possibly the reason I have heard entirely too many times that I am too smart for my own good, or that I make people's brains hurt.

[StillOne]

Originally Posted by tsmall

Well, tsmall has no problem communicating in any way. Speaking, writing, singing, acting, etc. Not terribly artistic, but I do passably well at pictionary.

Love the 3rd person reference...

Originally Posted by tsmall

StillOne, what I meant by internal vs. external is that Mercury isn't just about one (or possibly several) aspects of the individual personality. Remember that traditionally a natal chart wasn't used as a psychological tool for analyzing the native--though it certainly could be used that way even following traditional theories. Rather, it was used to predict how the native's life would be. This was/is the reason we examine the condition of the planet in the sign before we look at the aspects it makes. Although yes those aspects will help determine the end result.

Indeed, I do forget that sometimes. I usually am more interested in the psychological aspects although, I did just order a book on predictive astrology.

Originally Posted by tsmall

Consider someone with a debilitated Mercury rx. This wouldn't necessarily mean that person wasn't smart, but that maybe the affairs of the houses in the natal chart that fall in Gemini and Virgo won't go so smoothly, or as planned. Here's a very brief and overly general idea:

Using my tropical chart, I have Mercury rx in Libra, combust the Sun and conjunct Jupiter and the ASC. Mercury rules my 9th house, Gemini. Now, you would think that would indicate someone pretty smart, with Jupiter there, and on the ASC it would show outwardly. There was no question in my youth that I would go on to college, possibly graduate school, and in general do something with all that intelligence. But Mercury's condition actually tells the true story. I only went to university for one year, and then circumstances led me to leave (always with the expectation that someday I would go back) and 25 years later I still haven't. Make sense?

Oh, and because Mercury is rising after the Sun, he is nocturnal in a day chart. That makes him out of sect, sort of like being out of place. And quite possibly the reason I have heard entirely too many times that I am too smart for my own good, or that I make people's brains hurt.

Makes sense, thank you for that real life example tsmall.

[Caro]

i have a friend a lawyer. (degree educated)who has pluto/uran and mars in virgo in 12th h.sagi sun, aries moon. merc rx in scorpio. (libra rising)

when it came to standing up for her rights and needs - 'people dont hear her' or she cant get herself heard. she was trying to deal with that.Yet she was quite a forceful character. it had led to neglligence in a health matter and she intended to sue the doctor who had ignored/dismissed all her symptoms.

she described her early relations in the same way. her mother didnt pay as much attention to her as her brother.

[Whos_scarielle]

Bare with me here... I am new to this whole thing and don't really understand houses and mercury in rx and all that.(But I am learning )

Originally Posted by Caro

when it came to standing up for her rights and needs - 'people dont hear her' or she cant get herself heard. she was trying to deal with that.Yet she was quite a forceful character. it had led to neglligence in a health matter and she intended to sue the doctor who had ignored/dismissed all her symptoms.

she described her early relations in the same way. her mother didnt pay as much attention to her as her brother.

I can 100% relate to this, I fell as though I am a very forward, straight to the point, and so on. I am clear and honest, but people don't get it! They take things I say and make them what they want.

example: I went to the doctors for a stye that drained into my cheek tissue which was making my whole face swollen. I also had some acne (which I've always had). I told my doctor I was worried it was a staph infection IN my face.... And she starts talking about how my ACNE can make my face swell. And gives me antibiotics for my acne, and a face wash ?????? What?! This is one of the many times this has happened.

I seem to have a hard time getting respect from my parents and family. And they don't seem to listen to me much either, I always just thought it was because I was the youngest. But it's the same kind of story from most of my peers, and co-workers,
I get the feeling a lot of people think I'm "stupid" But I know a lot of other people think I'm really "Smart".

Funny thing is my parents said I was "mute" my first 3 years. I still feel like I am... haha

I know I'm smart. I'm just not the conventional smart that people look for.
I tend to be more introverted because I don't like speaking into deaf ears.

[JUPITERASC]

Originally Posted by Whos_scarielle

.....Funny thing is my parents said I was "mute" my first 3 years. I still feel like I am... haha.

That's intriguing Whos_scarielle - apparently, Albert Einstein never said a word either until he was at least three years old - maybe even four

[Judy_AzVirgo]

I've tested out some of these Mercury concepts with clients and family. Granted, it doesn't qualify as research (not enough subjects or any rigorous methodology), but personallly, I find that the various Mercury positions -- combust, morning, evening, retrograde, etc. -- have only a very minor influence on our ability to communicate. As JupiterAsc mentions, there are a LOT of ways to communicate. There are also different ways of thinking (logical or intuitive, for instance) and learning. Mercury in Cancer just doesn't think or necessarily learn in the same way as, for instance, Mercury in Aquarius.

Sign, house, aspects and other factors are generally more important than Mercury's position vis a vis the Sun or whether Mercury is retrograde. I.e., in your friend's chart, Mercury is combust the Leo Sun but also conjunct Saturn. She may initially think in a self-centered way, without much regard for other people, and yes, Jupiter may influence her to blurt things out. If she regrets what she said, it's probably the influence of Saturn, maybe combined with the retrograde motion. Could also be that, although Mercury is combust the Sun, Mercury is also slightly behind the Sun, so maybe she tends to sort of edit what she says, while she speaks or afterwards.

Mercury combust the Sun (within about 3 degrees) can indicate a very smart person, with the mind so closely linked to the Self and will. "You are what you think", maybe. But I don't always see any marked intelligence when the two planets are combust. At the other end of things, Mercury in a different sign than the Sun might indicate a bit of a disconnect between our thinking and our central concerns... possibly a Walter Mitty complex. (Look him up.) My Dad had both: Mercury at 29 Aquarius and Sun at almost 1 Pisces. He was very bright, and also tended to be easily distracted, with his mind in its own little world.

The concept of Mercury "behind" or "in front of" the Sun does seem to influence the way we think, and the way we use our minds.

Mercury rising before the Sun may be more spontaneous in its thinking, more apt to 'shoot from the hip', open to new ideas, occasionally visionary, but not necessarily able to put the pieces together in a comprehensive way. Creative but possibly scattered?

Mercury behind the Sun is usually described as 'deliberate', more analytical, objective, and able to think in terms of long-range goals, also sometimes better able to see the big picture.

I'm not sure that either of these descriptions applies strongly to Mercury combust Sun, which is kind of a different animal. In any event, these differences are typically very subtle, and will be modified by sign, aspects, and other factors.

But neither retrograde nor position of Mercury has anything to do with "weakness" or "strength" of the mind, which is more likely to be inherited from our parents and encouraged/discouraged by early learning than to show up in a natal chart. In no way does Mercury RX denote a lesser intelligence, for instance.

[StillOne]

Originally Posted by Judy_AzVirgo

She may initially think in a self-centered way, without much regard for other people, and yes, Jupiter may influence her to blurt things out. If she regrets what she said, it's probably the influence of Saturn, maybe combined with the retrograde motion. Could also be that, although Mercury is combust the Sun, Mercury is also slightly behind the Sun, so maybe she tends to sort of edit what she says, while she speaks or afterwards.

Thanks for the detailed response Judy. I found the bolded very interesting and I assume that's because of Sun and Mercury both being in Leo. Possibly we should just attribute it to Merc in Leo...? I'm just thinking since the Sun is in dignity in Leo, you would think that's the perfect place for the Sun and so that the self-centered nature (that she sometimes exhibits) would possibly be due to Merc in Leo. I don't want to stereotype Leo's tho...

[tsmall]

Originally Posted by StillOne

Thanks for the detailed response Judy. I found the bolded very interesting and I assume that's because of Sun and Mercury both being in Leo. Possibly we should just attribute it to Merc in Leo...? I'm just thinking since the Sun is in dignity in Leo, you would think that's the perfect place for the Sun and so that the self-centered nature (that she sometimes exhibits) would possibly be due to Merc in Leo. I don't want to stereotype Leo's tho...

Just to toss another though into the mix, consider that the Sun is "at home" in Leo. As mentioned on several other threads, planets in domicile tend to express at their most comfortable. So not to stereotype Leo in the least, but here the Sun is best able to comfortably express itself. I suppose we can draw our own conclusions as to what that implies?

The "perfect" place for the Sun, or any other planet, will most likely be it's exaltation...though that too, in my opinion has it's drawbacks. Like, being exalted will bring an air of expectation. Personally? I think the houses of Joy are the perfect place for the planets. Why? Because there they are just plain happy.

Judy, I loved your post. And it does I think remind us that when we look at the chart for psychological explinations vs. prediction, there are vast differences in what we have as opposed to what we will encounter.

[I cee]

What an informative thread!
I'm just dipping my little toe in...
I found this link, most of which has been said already but there may be something for someone?

http://khaldea.com/planets/merc_type.shtml

[JUPITERASC]

Originally Posted by tsmall

Just to toss another though into the mix, consider that the Sun is "at home" in Leo. As mentioned on several other threads, planets in domicile tend to express at their most comfortable. So not to stereotype Leo in the least, but here the Sun is best able to comfortably express itself. I suppose we can draw our own conclusions as to what that implies?

Exactly fwiw, there's more clarification on planets in domicile,sourced from Deborah Houlding, as follows

96 word quote:

“Early authors called signs 'houses' of planets, because signs where planets held rulership were regarded as their 'natural homes'.

Symbolically, a planet is strongest when in its own home. In war and sport the advantage goes to those in their own territory on familiar ground.

A planet in domicile…'represents a man in such a condition, as that he is Lord of his own house, estate and fortune; or a man wanting very little of the Goods of this world, or it tells you the man is in a very happy state or condition.... William Lilly'.....”

[Judy_AzVirgo]

Originally Posted by StillOne

Thanks for the detailed response Judy. I found the bolded very interesting and I assume that's because of Sun and Mercury both being in Leo. Possibly we should just attribute it to Merc in Leo...? I'm just thinking since the Sun is in dignity in Leo, you would think that's the perfect place for the Sun and so that the self-centered nature (that she sometimes exhibits) would possibly be due to Merc in Leo. I don't want to stereotype Leo's tho...

Sun in Leo is far stronger than her Mercury, which I would see as being subservient to the Sun. So you could say that her Sun in Leo is expressing itself through Mercury.

Speaking of stereotypes, I suppose I shouldn't have said "self-centered", but it does seem that Mercury in Leo has its thoughts and ideas originate in the Self. For instance, "if it's good for me, it's good for everyone" ... that sort of thinking. It isn't a bad thing, it just is what it is. (I have known a couple Mercury in Leo people who've parroted back my ideas as if THEY thought of them! I guess it's a matter of making an idea their own, which seems like a very Leo-y way to go. OK by me... I don't have a patent. Also know one Merc in Aquarius who has done this; don't know what her excuse is.)

[Judy_AzVirgo]

Originally Posted by tsmall

Judy, I loved your post. And it does I think remind us that when we look at the chart for psychological explinations vs. prediction, there are vast differences in what we have as opposed to what we will encounter.

Thank you, ma'am. I do think it's best for astrologers to test out theories and predicted behaviors to see if they prove out or not. I also suspect that the kind of people we attract as astrologers (I get gobs of Scorpio and Scorpio rising people), and therefore the types we're likely to 'test' theories on, may have an influence on what we feel works well or not so well, theory-wise --- in addition of course to the type of astrology we practice and what we as individuals 'see' in a chart.

Like you, my Mercury in Libra rises after my Sun (WAY after, not combust and not yet RX, like yours), so it seems quite natural to me to do a bit of testing and reasoning before I accept an idea... well, most of the time.

[JUPITERASC]

Originally Posted by Judy_AzVirgo

.....I have known a couple Mercury in Leo people who've parroted back my ideas as if THEY thought of them! I guess it's a matter of making an idea their own, which seems like a very Leo-y way to go. OK by me... I don't have a patent. Also know one Merc in Aquarius who has done this; don't know what her excuse is

Happens to me daily!

and fwiw IMO happens daily to most of us on this planet as well, without necessarily being limited to Leos doing this, or any one particular sign of the zodiac.

Many ideas are self-evident and common to many so "who 'parrots' whom" is a great question to consider

[bubuza_dulce]

I have met quite a few people with Mercury Rx conjunct Sun. Is it something very common or do I attract them (why?).

My first Martial Arts teacher had Mercury Rx conjunct Sun at a less than one degree orb at 29 Sag...

He seemed brilliant, whenever he answered at a question he left silence behind. It seemed there was nothing left to say. He went to the essence of things; he wrote an innovative book about what he taught.

With a Mercury in detriment, retro and conjunct Sun at 29 degrees - was he prone to mental problems or regarding his intellect?

Because I still remember his words - deep, he understood what you meant, going to the core of the issue. He was not afraid to be honest and it was surprising for me - I'm used to polite and shallow words. I miss his words.