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Old 04-03-2007, 05:29 AM
holly holly is offline
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Midpoints

I'd like to know what people think of midpoints, particularly the Sun/Moon midpoint. I couldn't find a great deal on the internet about this, unfortunately, but I did try.

1. Do you give it much importance?

2. Does the interpretation of a planet conjunct the Sun/Moon midpoint in two charts differ if the relationship in question is a sibling to sibling, instead of a romantic relationship?

3. What is the interpretation of the North Node or Chiron in one person's chart, conjunct the Sun/Moon midpoint in the other person's chart?

4. What about the Sun or Moon in one chart, conjunct the Sun/Moon midpoint in the other chart?

5. Does the Sun/Moon midpoint aspecting a planet between two people's charts feel different to each person?
For example, does the relationship seem karmic/significant to the person whose midpoint is aspected, whereas the person who's planet is doing the aspecting views the relationship in a less serious way?

That's all for now. Thanks.

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Old 04-03-2007, 12:08 PM
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unukalhai unukalhai is offline
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Re: Midpoints

Quote:
1. Do you give it much importance?
The Sun/Moon midpoint is the most important midpoint.

It represents the balance between the soul-nature (Moon) and ego-nature (Sun). All the other meanings of these two objects apply.. The balance between father and mother roles, make and female, conscious and subconscious, will and emotion, radiant vs reflective. I'm sure you're familiar with how the Sun and Moon compliment eachother in a number of ways, so think of the midpoint as their coming together.

http://www.cafeastrology.com/sunmoonmidpoint.html

The Sun and the Moon are natural partners, as they compliment eachother. Whenever two natural partners pair up as a midpoint, you generally have a very important spot in the chart. The same can be said of Venus/Mars (the sexual attraction midpoint), Jupiter/Saturn (optimism vs pessimism) Uranus/Neptune (individual vs communal) and a number of others pairs as well.

An example would be found in my progressed chart, where Venus is presently right on my Sun/Moon midpoint, which has invoked an ongoing balancing and harmonization of my masculine vs feminine nature.. A wonderful experience.

But the Sun/Moon midpoint is so sensitive and all-encompassing (it could be said that the combination of Sun/Moon energy define a large percentage of an individual, as they are the luminaries afterall!) that a planet at this midpoint will express itself throughout the native's experience, either by natal placement, transit or progressions.

Ebertin lists SO/MO as "Spirit and soul, the conscious and the unconscious, vitality and feeling, husband and wife"

When positive, a harmonious character, inner balance
When negative, inner discontent, an unbalanced nature, the struggle between duty and interests, tendency to allow inner conflicts to manifest. He goes on to state that the sign of the connection has a large influence of it's manifestation, and lists sociological correspondences as "husband and wife, father and mother, boyfriend and girlfriend, marriage, the parent, friendship"

Quote:
2. Does the interpretation of a planet conjunct the Sun/Moon midpoint in two charts differ if the relationship in question is a sibling to sibling, instead of a romantic relationship?
Yes, of course, as the interaction of the natives in question would be very different. Venus in this sort of synastry among a couple may result in a strong love bond as a manner of bringing harmony, but could very well indicate a strong cooperative musical connection between friends, as both interpersonal love and music are expressions of Venusian harmony.

The Venusian principle is harmony, so she will find a way to harmonize the other's Sun/Moon principle, but of course the method depends on the sort of social interaction between the two individuals. Planetary energies always play out through the channels of human interaction between people, and one must remember that each object in the chart rules a wide varieties of objects, activities, emotions and colors of personality reality. A little synthesis will go a long way

Quote:
3. What is the interpretation of the North Node or Chiron in one person's chart, conjunct the Sun/Moon midpoint in the other person's chart?
I try to avoid using receptive or calculated points (the angles, nodes, vertex, etc etc) to keep things a bit cleaner and because I'm not sure exactly how important they are in midpoints. My visual conception of a midpoint requires two energy generators, but others may disagree.

I would, however, consider Chiron would have a strong meaning at this point. The Chiron person would likely play an active role to both shed light on the other's Sun/Moon imbalances, as well as a catalyst to foment the healing of those imbalances. As usual for Chiron, that process may take place as a series of deeply personal and potentially troubling experiences which lead the native in a soul-level manner to recognize the challenges he faces to overcome his deepest fears or shortcomings. The Chironic journey is seldom apparent at the time and is often only understood by hindsight, as it is soul-level and subtle; even if the experiences are extremely obvious, the dots aren't always connected until later. The meaning may not be understood until after the healing process has taken hold, and the native is able to consciously engage the healing path, and often not until the healing path has mostly been completed. Many of us don't really understand our Chironic journey until close to the Chiron return, around age 50. I'm presently in the upper square of the journey and still have barely figured it out, although the path is fairly apparent, the endgame is still not.

It could also indicate the Sun/Moon person will help to further the Chironic journey of the Chiron person, applying the power of their luminaries to the other's Chiron.

It really depends on what's going on both between the individual and each individuals path and transits, progressions, etc. One should not try to enact a canned interpretation without a complete analysis of the individuals in question, especially with Chiron, aka the "maverick"! A little analytical creativity is advised, as is the use of your intuition as to where the two folks are at. Say, for example, that the Chiron individual meets the Sun/Moon individual when he is undergoing a powerful Chiron/Chiron transit (say Chiron-square-Chiron), or an outer planet is conjuncting the natal Chiron, it would be obvious the Sun/Moon person has entered at a critical Chironic phase for the Chiron native, and thus is going to further that journey, or atleast be an important part of it. However, if one person has transiting Uranus at his own Sun/Moon midpoint, thus conjuncting the other's Chiron, it would then be obvious the Chiron native is part of the UR=SO/MO cycle of the native undergoing the Uranus transit.

In short, take all the cycles into consideration to see how the midpoint synastry may play out. First meeting charts and charts for other important points in the relationship can be most revealing, as can the composite and davidson charts.

Quote:
4. What about the Sun or Moon in one chart, conjunct the Sun/Moon midpoint in the other chart?
Simply put, a classical marriage indicator or very strong bond between two individuals!

Quote:
5. Does the Sun/Moon midpoint aspecting a planet between two people's charts feel different to each person?
For example, does the relationship seem karmic/significant to the person whose midpoint is aspected, whereas the person who's planet is doing the aspecting views the relationship in a less serious way?
It really can work either way. The energy may have a stonger flow from the two planets into the singular planet, or from the singular planet to the midpoint pair. One must look at those objects in question to determine their strengths. If the singular object is immensely powerful it may tend to direct the midpoint pair, but if the midpoint pair is strong and is natally activated by a third planet (say if Mars squared the Sun/Moon midpoint in a single native's chart) it could very well play the lead role over the other's planet. I've seen this work both ways, and again one really must be creative and holistic in their interpretations of midpoints, and the interaction is always atleast somewhat bidirectional, if not balanced.

How serious it seems to either party would largely depend on how powerful and important the objects in question are. If the planet is weak in the chart and not expressed fluidly by the native, the midpoint aspect might not even play out in a notable manner, but if the planet is the native's main focus, the singular midpoint aspect may be the key focus on the relationship.

Anyways, I'm not a midpoint expert but have been working with them for a little while, yet still much to learn. I generally look to the more apparent placements, such as regular transits and synastry aspects, but sometimes find nothing apparent. I then turn to midpoints, and more often than not I find a very obvious, tight orbed midpoint configuration which just screams of the situation.

A good example would be an acquaintance who recently lost her grandfather, who was very important to her. It wasn't very apparent, but when I found Chiron within a few arcmin of her Sun in Capricorn (symbolic of an old man/father figure) and Venus in Pisces (a dearly loved one of all-encompassing depths) when this event happened, it became obvious his loss was part of her Chironic journey and the situation was very much playing out as such. This lined up with her first Uranus-Uranus square, showing that his passing is going to help her build her individuality, which seems obvious now that she's very much "on her own" in a personal emotional sense.

Just be careful not to get too deep into midpoints as to muddy the picture; avoid the calculated points and angles, and only consider 0, 90 and 180 degree aspects to them, with a maximum orb of a single degree, focusing on midpoints within a half degree or less. Honestly, unless I'm trying to understand a specific circumstance I try to limit them to conjunctions and oppositions within a 1/2 degree orb, aside from the Sun/Moon midpoint where I consider all 5 8th harmonic aspects (0/45/90/135/180) at up to 1 degree.

I hope that helps, and that I didn't further confuse you, and that all this made sense as I'm still waking up a bit today *caffeine time*
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Old 04-03-2007, 12:27 PM
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unukalhai unukalhai is offline
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Re: Midpoints

A few more links...

http://www.astrologynow.com/carolwillis/MidPoints.txt
http://www.noeltyl.com/techniques/030129.html
http://www.noeltyl.com/techniques/020629.html
http://www.noeltyl.com/techniques/010330.html
http://www.noeltyl.com/techniques/001230.html
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Old 05-10-2007, 03:21 AM
holly holly is offline
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Re: Midpoints

Thank you very much unukalhai, that was very informative and helpful.

This is a very important topic to me, because I have Jupiter on my Sun/Moon midpoint. I am trying to discover how that plays out in my personality and life. I am heavily influenced by my Capricorn stellium of Mercury, the Moon (chart ruler) and Jupiter and I find this describes a massive chunk of my personality.

The interpretation of Jupiter on the Sun/Moon midpoint could go either in my favour or against me.

It could give more strength to the stellium (Jupiter is expansive in nature, and a part of the stellium) which I don't want. Or Jupiter positioned on a sensitive point could magnify it's power, easing the stellium, giving me some Sagittarian qualities, putting fire into my personality, and accounting for my deep sense of optimisim that is always there for me when things go wrong.

I'm not entirely sure what to make of it yet.
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Old 05-10-2007, 07:48 AM
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unukalhai unukalhai is offline
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Re: Midpoints

Thanks, FullMoonDawn!

That is most interesting, I had not considered that specific midpoint, but that makes a _whole_ lot of sense!

What is the angular relationship in degrees between your Node and Mars? I'm curious, is there also any sort of "minor" aspect relationship between them? I find that the midpoint of any two objects becomes more important when there is an angular relationship between them, even "minor" aspects, which are often not exactly so "minor"! I've found the septile series to be far more powerful than some would imagine, which I'm guessing has to do with the long-running (1998 - 2012) septile aspect being formed off-and-on between Neptune/Pluto, a sort of "angle of the times".

I've also been working in detail with midpoints on the 90 and 22.5 degree dials (aka 4th and 16th harmonic charts) over the past few days, and finding them to be amazing tools for midpoint analysis. They are commonly used in Uranian astrology, a branch of astrology that works extensively in midpoint. Some say midpoints are original to the Uranian branch of astrology, yet the concept seems simple enough that you'd think someone before the Hamburg School had used them... The 90 degree dial seems almost magical, but I should warn the 22.5 degree dial will produce quite the numerous amount of pictures, so one should really start with the 90 dial and the use then 22.5 dial to look for further linkages around what the 90 dial shows... Whatever the case, save the 22.5 work for after you've understood the chart in terms of the 90 degree dial (4th harmonic).

Solar Fire, Kepler and Winstar will produce midpoint sorts in either of these modes. Astrolog32 can produce a midpoint list in these modes by setting the chart harmonic to 4 or 16. Solar Fire also has movable dial that will work in 90 or 22.5 (and other) modes, which I've found to be the most intuitive way to explore these modes. I found this recently and quickly have become hooked on it.

Regardless, thanks for mentioning that, I will have to check out the midpoint of my two least aspected planets
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Old 05-10-2007, 08:09 AM
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unukalhai unukalhai is offline
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Re: Midpoints

Quote:
Originally Posted by holly
Or Jupiter positioned on a sensitive point could magnify it's power, easing the stellium, giving me some Sagittarian qualities, putting fire into my personality, and accounting for my deep sense of optimisim that is always there for me when things go wrong.

I'm not entirely sure what to make of it yet.
I think you just nailed it there

The other side of the coin would be Jupiter adding a philosophical, optimistic outlook on the Sun/Moon relationship. In a relationship sense, this would show as a deep and optimistic understanding of relationships with the opposite sex (yours or even other's relationships), or in a more personal sense, a cheery outlook and blending of your will vs your feelings.

Certainly it integrates Jupiter's more upbeat nature into your Sun/Moon balance, which is a very major part of your overall personality, which in all logic should have a nice balancing effect on the Capricorn nature you have.

But one should also remember Jupiter in Capricorn is less upbeat and optimistic than Jupiter in many other signs, the serious nature of the sign (and the associated Saturn dispositorship) will make Jupiter more somber than usual, but will also indicate your sense of optimism isn't based on thin air or overzealous hope for unrealistic scenarios. Jupiter itself is balanced.

Overall it sounds like this would push your personality towards the "realist" sort of nature; not "realist" as in the pessimistic sense often wrongly associated with the word, but an actual realist sense, of one who accepts reality for what it is and finds the good parts of it, and is able to adapt to life's ups and downs while finding the brighter side of the not-so-bright situations we all encounter. This balance teaches us that even our darkest moments have a brighter side and a useful purpose.

I'm Cap rising with a Sag Sun, so the need for Jupiter/Saturn balance runs very strong in me... People often think I'm overly pessimistic if they don't understand how I think, but in time they find I'm more apt to see the basic cold and hard nature of a situation (Saturn) but find optimism in it for what it is (Jupiter) -- As is said, "Even a dark cloud has a silver lining" -- Working to balance one's Jupiter and Saturn helps one to actually live this saying, and atleast for me, this adds a positive element to my experience. I can't say I've mastered it yet, but it's certainly something that is part of my journey.

It's amazing how many people roll through life far to one side of this balance; either blindly optimistic or completely blind to the positive side of the darker situations... Either way, I perceive they're not being honest with themselves if they're too far to either side. I suppose I notice it more because of my personal focus on this balance, but it still amazes me.
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Old 05-10-2007, 02:29 PM
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flea flea is offline
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Re: Midpoints

Thankyou Holly for the question and unukalhai for the answers,

The sun moon midpoint had confused me til today. I just didn't get it. And I really do now it makes so much sense to me, thankyou. So I find my mid point 2 deg Libra which forms a grand trine with Venus 2 deg Aquarius and NN 4 deg Gemini. It is actually giving me food for thought as my progressed sun is just about to touch my venus, which must activate this area of my chart. The Sun is shining light onto this aspect literally and figuratively. I must be about to find out how my mid point is working in my chart. The Mid point doesn't really touch anything else in my chart, so this is the only real aspect it has, oh and sextile to a sag merc, i nearly forgot that one.

PS... I am a sag sun who tends to be on the overly optimistic side, but have dramatically fallen the other way too on the odd occasion so it was interesting to note my Jup/Sat mid point is in Taurus in the 12th house. I resonated with your thoughts on the subject Unukalhai as I think it is an important one to balance as I have found from experience.

Love & Light
Flea

Last edited by flea; 05-10-2007 at 02:31 PM.
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Old 05-10-2007, 02:51 PM
jagetoile jagetoile is offline
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Re: Midpoints

deleted post.

Last edited by jagetoile; 01-08-2008 at 11:42 AM.
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Old 05-14-2007, 05:38 AM
holly holly is offline
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Re: Midpoints

Thanks for the reply, unukalhai. You described the way Jupiter works in my chart very well. It's a fascinating topic. This "reality-based optimism" you described is spot on.
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Old 05-15-2007, 12:55 AM
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Re: Midpoints

Quote:
Originally Posted by holly
Thanks for the reply, unukalhai. You described the way Jupiter works in my chart very well. It's a fascinating topic. This "reality-based optimism" you described is spot on.
Jupiter not works?
You are working by the order of Jupiter.
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