Astrology for the Southern Hemisphere

[holly]

I'm curious as to how the meanings of the signs of the zodiac fit in with the seasons of the Southern Hemisphere.

Aries is about new life, growth and is associated with spring. Aries begins the zodiac. However spring where I live doesn't resemble Aries at all, with all the trees losing their leaves during autumn, and a lot of plants dying.

The winter signs of Capricorn and Aquarius actually fall in the hottest months of January and February. Summer is scorching hot, and doesn't seem to fit with the imagery of Capricorn portrayed by many astrology books.

Does astrology take the southern hemisphere into account? It would seem that Virgo should be the start of the zodiac, as the 1st of September, and thus the 1st of Spring, falls in Virgo and not Aries. Would a person born in Aries in the Southern Hemisphere be different from one born in the Northern Hemisphere, when the seasons and zodiac match up?

[archergirl]

What an interesting question! I don't have an answer except to say "I don't think so", to considering the differences in weather/planetary natures. As far as I know, most antipodeans use the 'Eurocentric' planetary interpretations with great success, even south of the equator. I had a very good friend from Melbourne, born a Gemini with a Cancer rising. She fit the bill, perfectly, even though she was actually a winter baby and not a summer one! Perhaps you could research this further and validate whether these interpretations hold true or not? It would be a massive project, but you might start an astrological revolution!

Best wishes,
AG

[holly]

Well, in case anybody is interested, after much thought I believe I have come up with some sort of answer as to how the meanings of signs can be the same despite the differences in season between the Southern and Northern Hemispheres.

The explanation I have is that summer in Australia is much like winter in the Northern Hemisphere. Summer here is harsh; the water dries up, plant life dies and it is particularly dangerous for people as well, with dehydration a major concern, not to mention the chance of skin cancer. On the very hot days, you can't even go outside, because the sun on your skin hurts.

I imagine winter in the North is much like that - water pipes freezing, plant life dying, and danger to humans through freezing temperatures. You can't go outside without protection because the biting cold hurts. It takes patience, planning and stamina to survive summer in the south, and winter in the north alike - characteristics of Capricorn.

After the summer has passed, the earth recovers, autumn brings rain, and we all breathe a sigh of relief that it is over. Plant life becomes green again and everything looks healthy in the soft autumn glow. I imagine this to feel much like a Spring would after a harsh Northern Hemisphere winter. Thus Autumn in the South and Spring in the North both share the characteristics of Aries.

The opposing winter/summer, spring/autumn seasons in the two hemispheres may have more in common than you would think. This would explain how Aries is still Aries in the Southern Hemisphere.

What do you think?


archergirl,

The signs probably are the same. I know from my own family that Aries is still Aries in the Southern Hemisphere! My brother is an Aries, and my fiance is a Libra. They both fit their sun descriptions exactly! They are very different, and certainly NOT their opposites!

[james]

i think this topic deserves renewed inspection. Holly, thank you for bringing this up! sorry it's taken me three and a half years to chime in.

Archergirl, am i right to infer that "anitpodeans" means people who live in the Southern Hemisphere???

I, too, have been thinking a lot about this question after reading Horoscope Symbols by Robert Hand. Check this out, from section called "Dignities: The Relationship of Signs to Planets"...

Ptolemy started out with the two signs Cancer and Leo, because these are where the Sun is in its northernmost passage, in the Northern Hemisphere's summer, when there is the greatest heat. He assigned the Moon to Cancer because Cancer is feminine, and the Sun to Leo because Leo is masculine. Then he took the opposite signs, Capricorn and Aquarius and assigned them to Saturn, because the Sun's passage through these signs marks the coldest time of the year, and Saturn, the farthest visible planet from the Sun, is to astrologers cold in nature. ...
Although Ptolemy discussed the similarities of the signs and their ruling planets to some extent, it is clear from his discussion that similarity of symbolism was not the main concern. The main concern was the neat schema.
All went well for about 1,700 years, until Uranus was discovered...

So where does that leave chart-holders who were born in the REVERSE of the climate/seasonal behavior upon which Ptolemy set up the dignities? I myself have a Northern Hemisphere chart, but that's not the point... How are we supposed to have any faith in dignities & debilities if Ptolemy was truly unconcerned about meaning and just wanted to make his chart look all pretty and symmetrical? My world is shaken.

Because down here it's really REVERSED!!! (I've been sweating all day.) ...If climate is the basis for assigning debilities, then the debilities are backwards in the Southern Hemisphere, which Ptolemy presumably didn't know about???

Ditto for the characterisitics of the zodiac signs -- Leo's traits should be conferred to So. Hem. Aquarians (including those born in the fervor of Carnaval!), and Cancer's to Capricornians.

...Now it's been a few years since Holly brought up this discussion, maybe someone in this forum, perhaps a new member, has more familiarity with this subject? This will be my google project this evening, if i can, to find out what's been written about Astrology in the Southern Hemisphere. This must have been discussed somewhere to somebody's satisfaction.

I'm particularly interested in this because in another thread, we've been talking about dispositors (in particular, comparing the classical vs. modern system of dispositorship), but DISPOSITORSHIP in general assumes the astrological validity of the dignities established by Ptolemy, which in turn appear to be based on the climate of Greece (granted, with some modification in the case of the modern system). So, if the dignities aren't right for Southern Hemisphere natives, then their dispositor trees are meaningless. ...I wonder what Kevin Burk thinks of all this, since he's so big into classical dignities & debilities, and also into dispositor trees.

j

[The_Sundance_Kid]

I think even if Ptolemy based his dignities on the weather, a modernist approach would base the planets on a certain symbolism that could potentially be unitary. And if it cannot be unitary then there are still two other possibilities I can see.

Firstly, it could still be unitary if we interpret in a different way. A modern way, that bases rulerships and sign characteristics not on weather or climate or patterns but as premises in themselves. We can recognise the historical origins of these rulerships but still take them as a given.

And why talk only about the southern hemisphere? There are billions of people who live near the equator where all talk of our conventional seasons has little meaning. In northern India the monsoon can co-incide with Cancer (all good), but often overruns into or even starts in Leo. And the first offshoots of spring happen in Aquarius, while by Taurus, far from being a month of blossom and spring, it is baking hot. And Scorpio is a rather pleasant and mild month. Half a billion people live across that plain.

And then the tropics, which have alternating wet and dry seasons but mostly unchanging temperatures- millions, if not billions of people live there too.

And then desert climates, like Dubai, where the winter months are very mild and comfortable, so Saturn is most welcome.

So because of these differences I think we have to sever the link between rulership and climate, whilst acknowledging the Greek or European viewpoint as the historical source. And the climate analogy can still be useful for symbolic purposes. Besides, if most Western astrology is based on the Middle East, then wouldn't Middle Eastern astrologers, and even Vedic ones, have consented to these rulerships too? So there must be more to them than Ptolemy.

Anyway, maybe we could take a wider approach too...

Like Holly said, we could interpret by saying that Saturn and the sun represent extremes, extreme hot is just as bad as extreme cold, and just as debilitating. And Venus and Mars come into play when seasons are changing, and their natural fertility is a result of a balance of seasons. And Mercury and Jupiter come into play at the beginning and end of extremes. I even think the earth is closest to the sun during Capricorn, which goes against what we normally assume.
I'm sure if looked at most climates enough we could forcibly fit an astrological pattern which was more coherent. And if we can't we simply sever and acknowledge.

So maybe the focus should be on polarities instead of the signs. We see a bit of Scorpio in the Taurus spring, and vice versa. I was also thinking that Aries and Pisces rise very fast in the Northern Hemisphere but rise much more slowly in the Southern one, so there will be genuine statistical differences if we looked at charts. That might lead to a very different personality culture down south! There's a good thread on this already, will link to it when I find it.

Anyway those are my initial thoughts for what they're worth, will post more if I think anymore

[ScorpiosRock]

Very valid question. It is odd having autumnal scorpio in the spring.

Originally Posted by james

This will be my google project this evening, if i can, to find out what's been written about Astrology in the Southern Hemisphere. This must have been discussed somewhere to somebody's satisfaction.

I have something about this in one of my books. I'll go and search for it.

Do you guys think maybe all the seasons should be analyzed/attributed with/to all the zodiac signs. I've noticed some differences between the basic dispositions of some of the signs, but not as hectic to make my analysis incorrect.

[james]

There's this: http://www.astrosynthesis.com.au/art...hern_signs.pdf
...a lightweight, very short article, that makes some good points, e.g.:

Onto the heavens we cast our myths animating the
constellations with our human psychology. Here in the South hemisphere the
zodiacal signs are also able to be adapted seasonally with Capricorn being dry or

Cancer being wet. The archetypal zodiac responds to its projections.

I never thought of it that way, and so true, about Cancer being wet and Capricorn being dry!

[james]

Sundance, thanks for that very considered, thoughtful response.

Yes, if you can locate that thread, i'd be very interested, especially since it comes so highly endorsed!

Also, i didn't know this before:

I was also thinking that Aries and Pisces rise very fast in the Northern Hemisphere but rise much more slowly in the Southern one, ...

j

[The_Sundance_Kid]

Its this thread:

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...er+virgo+worry

Its a rather strange thread as it talks about lots of things at once, but very useful. I was hoping to start a thread on astrology and statistics but haven't been able to, so I think we should start one soon.

Its what the article you linked was talking about when it referred to signs of long and short ascension.

And there are lots of other implications and biases in charts: more people are born in the morning before sunrise because we have evolved that way, if full moons are periods of stress there might be a difference in numbers of births on the moon cycle, or more people are born in spring as we have evolved to raise children when food is plentiful. I'd like to discuss those things some time.

So if more people are born in the northern hemisphere with Scorpio Asc, then more Scorpio suns will be double scorpios compared to other signs. And an Aries sun will be more likely to have his or her sun in houses 5/6. I think this is a subject ripe for statistical research...

[ScorpiosRock]

Great theory Sundance, how can I help with the stats? Very interresting subject.

[james]

Sundance -- Would this area of interest be called "anthroastrology", maybe "ethnoastrology"?

And an Aries sun will be more likely to have his or her sun in houses 5/6.

-- now why is that???

j

[rogue_red]

I am so glad this thread has been revitalised. Being from New zealand this affects me alot. My concern is in regards to house systems and their relevance to the southern hemisphere. All the major house systems have been based on the northern hemisphere and when they are applied to the southern hemisphere they give very distorted houses. Now I dont believe that the answer is as simple as using the equal house system because even with this we end up getting the midheaven anywhere from the beginning of the 9th house through to the end of the 11th. This is even worse the further south you go. Hey even those who live at the poles deserve accurate charts right?

When i get some more time i will dig up the notes i did on this topic and post again.

Rogue red

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

Does it really give distorted houses for the Southern hemisphere? I guess I was sort of under the impression that the farther you went from the equator - either way - distorted it the same. So that the distortion between 45° North and 45° South was equal.

Interesting...

[rogue_red]

Here is some stuff from other threads relating to this topic.

Ascending signs are all about the same near the equator but as you move toward the polar regions they vary considerably with Pisces and Aries taking 30 min for Northern lats and 2hrs20min for southern lats, Aquarius and Taurus 45 min N.lat,2hr30min S.Lat, cap gem 1 hr 30 min N.lat, 2hr 20 S.lat, Sag Cancer 2 hrs 40 min N.lat, 2 hrs S.Lat, Leo Virgo lib scorp 3hr 15 N.lat and scorp Leo 90 min S.lat and lib Virgo 75 min S.lat. Maximum variation for the most northern latitudes is 2 hours 45 min and in the south its 1 hr 15. If we go further south say to Murmansk there is no ascending sign at all!
Secondly there are far too many variables to consider before saying that because a certain sign rises slower that there should be more people born with that sign rising. More women go into labour during the night hours of 12-4 a.m than any other time. Also with over 30% of american births being caesarians this would mean that 30% of americans born this year will have there ascendant rising between 8a.m and 5 p.m (excluding emergency c-sections) as doctors plan elective c-sections for when their staffing numbers are higher. Also statistically year after year more americans are born during august and september than any other time during the year. From all of this we could theorise that 30% of americans born between august and september will have either virgo, libra, scorpio or sag rising with a shift in september giving virgo the boot and introducing capricorn rising.

Gaer wrote this

At 55N degrees latitude, I get almost exactly 3 hours for Libra and Virgo. I seem to get almost the exact same figures for Leo and Scorpio. Logic tells us that the passage through each sign will speed up, so the acceleration is almost unnoticable until Sagittarius and Cancer.

My conclusion is that at any latitude:

Virgo=Libra
Leo=Scorpio
Cancer=Sagittarius
Gemini=Capricorn
Taurus=Aquarius
Aries=Pisces

What is misleading is this. The extreme points are 0 Aries and 0 Libra. Even though it happens so gradually that it is all but impossible to notice, every minute before or after 0 Libra is a bit faster. But the acceleration is so slow, you have to get a couple signs away before it begins to be obvious.

On the other end, the deceleration is much faster. That's why the movement through Aquarius and through Gemini are about 15 minutes longer at 55N, about an hour, while through Pisces and Aries only about 45 minutes.

For practical reasons Leo through Scorpio turn out to all be about three hours long at that latitude (55N), and for obvious reasons people are more likely to be born with those rising signs than other.

(I picked 55 because it is reasonably high, but not at all unreasonable for northern Europe.)

And i wrote this on another thread

I have looked in depth at house systems and my preference is a graduation system that is fairly new so not widely available so my second choice is koch. The equal house system has alot of validity and I need to look furthur into the mathmatical calculations of the individual house systems before settling on one particular system. One of the factors that influences my choice for house systems is the fact that I live in the southern hemisphere and none of the current house systems are designed to take into account the difference in hemispheres creates, namely that due to the obliquity of the eliptic the constellations from capricorn to gemini take longer to ascend in the southern hemisphere than in the north. I think that a house system needs to reflect this and so Im not convinced that the equal house system is as relevant here as in the north.

Rogue red

[rogue_red]

Originally Posted by Kaiousei no Senshi

Does it really give distorted houses for the Southern hemisphere? I guess I was sort of under the impression that the farther you went from the equator - either way - distorted it the same. So that the distortion between 45° North and 45° South was equal.

Interesting...

It is interesting. Due to the tilt of the earths axis and the ecliptic the variations for far north and deep south are quite different. It makes me wonder if these factors affect populations of people just as the tilt of the earth and proximity to the equator affect environmental conditions.

Rogue red

P.s Hi kaibear pandypoo

***Save the Rainbows***

[The_Sundance_Kid]

I'm still not sure if it does distort more in the south than in the north... i'm willing to believe it might do, but I thought the same as Kai, that they would be distorted equally according to latitude? How can we find out? Shall we cast some charts in various lattitudes?

[The_Sundance_Kid]

Scorpio Rock: I guess we should start a new thread for all the statistical studies, would be interesting to see what comes up. Will think about it and let you know, but feel free to do your own research in the mean time

James: This is conjecture, but I was thinking if Virgo, Libra and Scorpio are all taking their time to rise, then the chart will rotate slowly when they are rising. So if there is an Aries sun, it is more likely that the sign of Aries itself will be setting, as if Libra takes a long time to rise, Aries will be taking a long time to set. So I thought maybe there will be a larger than average number of Aries suns in the 7th or 6th houses.

Or to take another example, if the sun is in Capricorn, then when the signs of long ascension are rising, (Virgo/ Libra most of all) Capricorn will be nearer the IC. And this makes sense as we know that in the winter (in the northern hemisphere) the sun spends way more time below the horizon than above it.

And no matter what the sun sign there might always be another rise in births with the sun in houses 1 and 2 because of the sunrise thing. So the combined effect might be alot of Virgos and Libras with suns in houses 1 and 2?

But this is all very imperfect. For one it depends on the house system. And I think charts are erected by finding the MC first, so maybe it will be more accurate if we look at the long signs on the MC. They will naturally be on the MC during the summer as this is when the days are longest. (?)

[james]

RedRogue wrote:

we end up getting the midheaven anywhere from the beginning of the 9th house through to the end of the 11th.

but this is precisely one of the benefits of Equal Houses, in my opinion. i LIKE that you can get the MC in the 9th, 10th, or 11th house. in my case, MC in the 9th house seems very on target.

also, i was under the same impression as Kai, in that I'd expect any "distortion" to be mirrored on either side of the equator.

j

[The_Sundance_Kid]

Lol as for a name for this type of astrology... if there isn't one already we should invent one! But we should make it quirky so its memorable. What would Don Draper call it?

[james]

Sundance -- thanks for that explanation. i get it now. if Aries is "taking its time to set", then all else being equal, why wouldn't there be more births when Aries is setting, since it's got a statistical edge, time-wise... but then you've got those scheduled caesarian sections upsetting the statistical playing field.

i had a hard time in statistics (i blame the soporific instructor and uninspired textbook!). But we never applied it to topics as interesting as this, so.

j

[rogue_red]

Originally Posted by The_Sundance_Kid

Lol as for a name for this type of astrology... if there isn't one already we should invent one! But we should make it quirky so its memorable. What would Don Draper call it?

How about statistilocalitical astro-ecclipticism

[The_Sundance_Kid]

Oh yes Rogue mentioned caesarians before as well- you're right its very important. I guess that would even out some odds.

But I think we can use it to our advantage: if the average caesarian occurs around noon then we might expect another double effect...

If Virgo and Libra are rising when the sun is near the MC point, then there will be a larger than average number of births with suns near the MC. If we add in the increase in caesarian births at this time of day it will boost this number. Virgo and Libra rising would make the sun be in Gemini and Cancer for this to happen, so if we studied the charts of Gemini's and Cancers hopefully the combined effects of caesarians and rising signs will make it even more likely that they will be Virgo/Libra rising with sun in 9th or 10th.

And conversely the use of caesareans will make it less likely that Capricorns and Sagittarians will have the sun in any part of the chart, because the effects might cancel each other out more.

Rogue: I bet Dane Rudhyar or Noel Tyl probably use that word already. Something avant-garde...
Or something melodramatic like the Apocalypto Effect. That would make sure people read up on it.

[james]

re: the name. i remember in the late 70's reading an article about scientists who were trying to figure out why girls were reproductively maturing ever earlier, and why Swedes [disclaimer: i could be wrong about which country it was] were taking the lead in this developmental trend. The called these scientists "ethnobiologists" because they took into account geographical and cultural factors (psychology, diet, etc.) in understanding biological diversity from one "people" to the next. ...ergo, this would be "ethnoastrology". or is that stretching it?

i would hate to see us come up with a based-on-a-dead-language term as unfortunate as "homophobia", which ought to mean "fear of the same", if you break it down. someone really ******* up with the Greek on that one. ...not that we're going to name it "homophobia", but you see what i'm getting at. so "ethno" + "astrology" is my vote.

good night. thanks to everyone for their participation on this thread. it's been quite fecund.
;-)

[ EDIT: What is with these auto-deletions?! The deleted word rhymed with "crude", not with "bucked". "Someone crude up", not "someone bucked up". Is "to 'crude' up" really offensive??? If so, I sure do apologize, ma'am! I had no idea! ]

[rogue_red]

Well we can go for The S.L.A.P.P.A.S Effect

Statistical
Locational
Aberration
Pertaining to
Proportional
Ascending
Signs

[rogue_red]

Originally Posted by james

re: the name. i remember in the late 70's reading an article about scientists who were trying to figure out why girls were reproductively maturing ever earlier, and why Swedes [disclaimer: i could be wrong about which country it was] were taking the lead in this developmental trend. The called these scientists "ethnobiologists" because they took into account geographical and cultural factors (psychology, diet, etc.) in understanding biological diversity from one "people" to the next. ...ergo, this would be "ethnoastrology". or is that stretching it?

i would hate to see us come up with a based-on-a-dead-language term as unfortunate as "homophobia", which ought to mean "fear of the same", if you break it down. someone really ******* up with the Greek on that one. ...not that we're going to name it "homophobia", but you see what i'm getting at. so "ethno" + "astrology" is my vote.

good night. thanks to everyone for their participation on this thread. it's been quite fecund.
;-)

[ EDIT: What is with these auto-deletions?! The deleted word rhymed with "crude", not with "bucked". "Someone crude up", not "someone bucked up". Is "to 'crude' up" really offensive??? If so, I sure do apologize, ma'am! I had no idea! ]

Hmmm Maybe it should be topogeographical latitudinal ethnoastrology.