Learning and astrology

[Radu]

Hi

This just ocurred to me: how would one check the way a person learns life's lessons in the natal chart?
I suppose this is related to configurations, as I know that people with oppositions in their natal charts are able to see the reflection of their actions in the others or in outer events/phenomena and therefore learn/adjust their behaviour/approach - the mirror effect.
Well, I don't have any opposition in my natal chart, only a Libra stellium square the Moon. I can find myself repeating the same life mistakes over and over waiting for the inner conviction to appear that these patterns of behaviour/thinking are wrong and I should do otherwise. I'm blaming this on the superconjunction that is a stellium.
Any thoughts on this?
For anyone willing to take a look at my chart, I was born on September 18, 1976, at 12:16 pm EET, in Tirgu Mures, Romania (4 Sag rising).

[wilsontc]

Radu,

You have Gemini (thinking, also details) modifying Jupiter (expansion) focused in the 6th house (daily work, also analysis) conjunct (energy is combined with) Descendant (others). So you think about a LOT of details, analyzing them over and over in reference to how they are understood by others around you. So you see a LOT of "life mistakes" in things simply because you are looking at (or trying to do) TOO many details at one time. The issue of Gemini modifying Jupiter (Jupiter in the sign of its detriment, challenging energy) is Jupiter can get overwhelmed with all the data coming at it. The challenge is to decide WHICH data to focus on and then to decide to do something about the data which creates issues. Remember that "analysis leads to paralysis"!

Expansively,

Tim

Hi Radu,

I am confined to bed at the moment through illness. I have made a note of your details and will get back to you as soon as I shrug off this flu.


Good wishes


Bob



Note: To anyone else I need to get back to. I will return ASAP.

[starlink]

Dear Radu, very good subject! Oppositions teach us to become aware of others and by doing that, becoming aware of our own needs too. It is the Aries-Libra polarity, me versus you. When there is no opposition in the chart, the need to become aware, the need to relate to others is not innately there and has to be learned on the hard road of experience. The problem is, that the person thinks and believes, that they really have excellent understanding of others, in business and in marriage, interpersonal relationships. When suddenly faced with the fact that something is wrong (or the other makes you aware of that) you might not at all understand that you have done something wrong or have not done something that was expected of you.
You might have had moments where you really thought that certain things will never work out (in relationships) and in extreme cases people even shy away of close relationships. You have this Libra stellium, so the big need for a relationship is strongly there. The emotional Moon squares it (I am also in bed after a big operation on my intestins last monday so I have to wait for my partner to print your chart out, haven't seen where your Moon is situated). When you have no oppositions, squares will help you to compensate, to face yourself (hence your questîon which is a really good first step into the right direction!!) and your shortcomings. If I were you, I would ask your wife (the Moon) to help you, to let you know immediately if there is something that bothers her about your behavior. It is the only way to be made aware of it. You can then make a mental note of it.Write it down and look at those notes. Maybe you still think you are in the right about a certain issue or that the others has it all wrong,that you did everything to make them happy, not understanding what the heck they are complaining about, but I would just trust them in this. They can see far better what the problem is than you do. See it as a help coming from them and do not feel offended.
Also, start asking yourself why you developed this attitude. (I will have a look at your chart later). So I think that, if you really want to get rid of this, or at least learn to admit that you can be that way, you will need someone else to point it out to you, without getting mad about it. How else can you learn? Very good that you brought this up. I personally think that having no squares is far more difficult to live with than no oppositions. I will come back to you as soon as I have seen your chart. All the best, C.

[Frisiangal]

Radu:

Well, I don't have any opposition in my natal chart, only a Libra stellium square the Moon. I can find myself repeating the same life mistakes over and over waiting for the inner conviction to appear that these patterns of behaviour/thinking are wrong and I should do otherwise. I'm blaming this on the superconjunction that is a stellium.

Any thoughts on this?

Here I go again on my BML soapbox, but it really is quite uncanny.

MEAN Black Moon Lilith has been transiting Libra for several months and therefore picking up on your Libra stellium. It is now conjunct Mars and therefore picking up on the square to natal Moon as well. For quite a while things are not as they appeared to be and you may feel that 'no body' is seeing things in the same way as you do. A 'behind the scene' influence, or something of which you were totally unaware, is surely making his/her/its presence felt.

According to what BML can suggest, perhaps you should be asking yourself 'Am I wrong, or have I always been right by the facts shown me that I may not have allowed myself to notice were there and/or want to see?"

You have natal BML on approx. (mentally calculated from ephemeris page) 5 degr. TAURUS in your 5th house. Look at its aspects! Conjunct Chiron and therefore part of the opposition to natal Uranus and quincunx to natal Mercury. It will therefore also effect the houses these planets rule, won't it ?

What has been observed with BML in Taurus is that it refers to inner values, based upon perception of what physically (Taurus) occurs. You could say that if your Libra side always tends to take other people into consideration where compromises are concerned, BML shows you that, by their actions, many people aren't as you think they are, or act in the pleasant manner you would want them to. This is especially so now that the Moon....your expectations ... is under the influence of transiting BML.

I was taught that it is Saturn that refers to 'life's lessons' because it represents our perception of the reality of life in that which we undergo. Your Saturn trines Neptune. Yes; you will make mistakes but perhaps only because you have a larger than life perception of how reality can be. It takes a lot for other people with other views to live up to that.
The best part about mistakes is that we learn from them and, hopefully, never make the same mistake twice. I.O.W. trust your instincts; they won't let you down.


F.

[starlink]

Hi Radu, I decided to not print the chart out, just minimize it and look at it when I need to. I dont think the Stellium is the big problem, although it could give a bit too much emphasis on relationships and with Jupiter, the constant analysing of those relationships. Problems you might encounter are more due to your Moon in the 8th house (and Saturn as well in the 8th) in square to Pluto, Venus, Mars and that Jupiter on the cusp of the 7th opposed to your Ascendant. Furthermore your Mercury is retrograde, making the thinking process deeper and more sensitive. This in fact is quite helpful in your quest for understanding your problems, coming from the lack of oppositions in your chart. With this Mercury in Libra, you DO have the possibility to feel and sense what other people's needs are but you are probably too busy paying attention to those signals because of your overanalysing Jupiter in Gemini. You probaby are a very good, precise, talker but less of a listener, in fact, you can easily dominate a social situation with your outporing of knowledge.
You could be a great teacher and writer. Mercury retrograde quite often shows a greater ability for expressing feelings in writing than verbally. Mercury is conjunct the ruler of the 12th showing hidden thoughts and the Moon in the 8th squaring Pluto can also show a fear in opening up emotionally. A lot of 8th house issues are related to deep inner fear and we also find Saturn there not to forget. So, to put it very plain, It could be that you are afraid to confront your inner demons and you therefore dont listen to yourself, to what your needs are, probably afraid of causing disruption in your relationships with others. When you cannot listen to your inner messages, you also cannot listen to other people's needs. It is safer that way and the Moon wants safety. I noticed that your Moon is in half square aspect to Jupiter. Jupiter, in it's exagerated need to express it's knowledge, is stronger than your Moon. After all, the Moon, even though she is strong in own sign, she is very vulnerable in the 8th house, she has to express herself there, it makes her insecure. In order to NOT listen to your inner self, you use that OUTER (Ascendant ruler) Jupiter to overscream that voice within you. In my opinion this is also a sign of being in need of attention which you lacked in your childhood. Someone clearly did not listen to you, to your needs, your longing to express yourself and now it is difficult for you too to listen to others and their needs. Your childhood has put a stamp on you (ruler of the 4th in the 1st house and you learned (had to?)please others (Libra stellium). Now you "rebel" in your own unique way by "knowing it all" and maybe therefore get into repeated difficulties. I have no idea what your problems are in relation to the missing opposition(s) in your chart,but it has to do with relationships, probably more so in your job than privately, as the Stellium falls in your 10th house. I might be totally wrong of course, but I just have this feeling looking at your chart. Curiously waiting for your feedback! C.

[flea]

Hi Radu,

I concurr with F. with BML opp Uranus, it seems to be a strong opposition as Uranus is conjunct the north node also. I have found the nodal axis, chiron, and saturn give me strong clues to my own development, getting past built in behaviour patterns. Betty Lundstead was great at gving a picture of the parents and how they related to the child from the natal, this might be useful, she was for me as the 5/11 axis would involve both childhood patterns and the current integration of the inner child as a generator of dreams (the internal play space of creativity). How you give birth to ideas (5), and bring yours dreams into reality (11). NN Scorpio would indicate you have to go deep into things, and that is where the resistance starts. The more vulnerable you get the more off balance you feel, and start resisting the depth, or kid yourself you have looked at it when you haven't. Chiron is involved so it is painful. By attaining a different perspective to the pain you can get beyond to the NN. Then you have BML playing around too.

There maybe be rigid thinking patterns (that appear balanced) to so with male/female traits or left brain right brain balance that pluto is transforming. Which would actually lead to a real balance which is v. uncommon I think. Pluto gives a link back to the NN in scorpio, so maybe similar energy at work.

I may be completely off track, as I tend to come from an intuitive base.

So for what it is worth.

L&L
Flea

[twiggy]

how would one check the way a person learns life's lessons in the natal chart?

I have mainly conjunctions, no oppositions and only one square in my natal chart. I sometimes feel I stand aside humanity, seeing others 'locking horns' in their interactions with each others. Like being the teacher of the class I pass by wryly observing how some 'opposition and square' people exist and find their place and value by engaging in constant dynamic polar opposition with people of equal enmity. These encounters tend to send them in their direction for better or for worse. Being a 'conjunction' person I like to work with conjunct energies , without tensions but with an unwavering focus towards a common goal. I think we achieve our goals differently. 'Conjunct' people' probably need to focus on the slow, long term achievments as our lifepath/selfgrowth is 'homegrown'.

Cheers!

[Radu]

Hi all

Thanks for all the replies. I really got much more info than I asked on many aspects of my chart. :59:

I'm focused now on improving myself and my life. After a longer period of spiritual "resting", Black Moon Lilith got to be indeed hitting at my most sensitive point (thanks Frisinagal for pointing it out)- the tightest square of my chart and it prompted me to do something about it. Finally...
With all these cardinal planets around, I feel alive in crisis situations, kind of wait for them, in order to be able to take action. Words like stability, perseverence, fixity mean little to me, unfortunately. The Moon square Mars in cardinal signs has its share of guilt. As Starlink noticed the Moon being so "dynamically" aspected, it alters my listening to the inner voice and probably the relationship with the unconscious. But I don't remember any unhappy childhood event or condition, actually I was quite happy back then, the Moon is still in its domicile.

Well, lots and lots of things to comment on this subject. Going back to BML, which seems to be the cause for the current state of affairs, I'm still trying to better the understanding of the natal Lilith - Chiron conjunction opposing the Uranus - North Node conjunction.
The current phase of the Chiron-Lilith cycle is waning trine, which probably holds some positive potential on healing Lilithian issues announced in the natal chart (Lilith conjunct the South Node).
The Uranus - North Node conjunction is easy to see - all Uranian issues (from astrology to internet, computers, other technological gadgets) proved to be lucky so far.

So, even if the initial topic was actually allegedly "learning and astrology" it really was about Lilith and Chiron!?

[Frisiangal]

Glad to read that you were able to pick up on my friend's Libran advice, Radu .

I have an exact degree Lilith-Chiron conjunction myself, in Earthly Virgo, that squares Uranus. I fully appreciate the difficulty of trying to live a life in which one feels and undergoes experiences regarding what is considered to be right/wrong that are totally alien to other people's ideas. As BML is not a physical object, it often refers to what does NOT outwardly physically happen, manifest and occur regarding the sign that it is in, rather than what does. Your saying, "Words like stability, perseverence, fixity mean little to me" therefore provided more food for thought for my study. Thank you! Maybe the inner yearning for that which can never physically be, like reaching for the moon?, is suggestive of the pain of Chiron? In my case, I now know in myself that it referred to the pain of not being able to live up to the perfection others expected of me, rather than their living with what I considered right and perfect.......and discarded me because of it.

Must also thank you for your comment regarding the cycle of a BML conjunction. I'm still studying the natal,transiting (18 more months to go!) and progressed effects of the point, but will definitely consider the effect of its cycle with another planet next time round.

Regards.
F.

[Frisiangal]

Radu:

how would one check the way a person learns life's lessons in the natal chart?
I suppose this is related to configurations,

I once posed the question whether a conjunction becomes another aspect, a trine 'dissolves' itself, or a square and opposition become trines and sextiles during a single lifetime because we all work with and undergo the effects of such aspects during life, so must learn something as a result of them.

I've personally come to the conclusion that this isn't so. 'Life' is apparently like a spiral, hopefully going upwards, so I've been told. I think of it as circumstances providing 'ripples' like a stone hitting water does, that have far-reaching consequences that we may not be aware of at the time. I once drew an(y) aspect in a widening spiral and water ripples and what did I get? The same aspect(s) work(s) at another level as one hopefully climbs the spiral, or crosses another ripple taking in a wider field of the next experience to undergo.
It sort of explained why the more I learn, the less I know.

Anyone else have any ideas?

F.

[flea]

I once posed the question whether a conjunction becomes another aspect

I think of the chart itself to be all consuming, with every potential aspect and relationship contained in it. A description of the whole Universe. To describe the Universe according to the chart model an infinite number of bodies could be revolving, asteroids whatever. This is impossible to decipher so we restrict and simplify the model. The level of restriction is arbitrary and therefore any line you draw is meaningful. For example just looking at the sun and the moon in one chart for one year could easily fill your time.

Irrespective of this the 12 signs are the same, they are always all there and the axis across which they correspond are always there.

We are here to express a certain perspective on these signs designated by our charts. This is described my the planets and aspects. I also think an aspect always exists within a chart is cannot be totally isolated and yet still fully understood with respect to the owner of a certain chart. Mastering your chart in totality in a completely positive or constructive way is an end point that always exists and is always seeming beyond reach. If we ever reached that point I think we would be in a position to change our aspects.

I think F. you have a very poetic way of expressing yourself.Thankyou for engaging my mind into gear.

L&L
Flea

[flea]

Hi Radu,

just noticed I have my moon within a degree of yours, and Fullmoondawn (Hi again) has a sun pretty close too. Just one of those synchronicities I like to notice.

L&L
Flea

[Frisiangal]

Originally Posted by flea

I think F. you have a very poetic way of expressing yourself.Thankyou for engaging my mind into gear.

L&L
Flea

Wow. Thank you too. I'm not the intellectually academic type and can only write as I think.....in simple terms.
'Poetic way of expression'? Could that refer to the bi-quintile (other thread!)
between my Mercury in Taurus and Neptune in Libra, I wonder ?

F.

[twiggy]

[quote=Radu]

I can find myself repeating the same life mistakes over and over waiting for the inner conviction to appear that these patterns of behaviour/thinking are wrong and I should do otherwise.

As you have natal Saturn in Leo, you have been going through your first Saturn return. I would imagine this would prompt somewhat harsh introspection.

cheers

Hi Radu & all,

This just ocurred to me: how would one check the way a person learns life's lessons in the natal chart?

The Lot of Fortune gives a bottomless pit of information about everything that happens to us in this life.

I am sure you have analyzed your chart enough to know all the basic interpretations, but I would just like to add that a waxing square acts in much the same way as an opposition; you would almost certainly meet it in your relationships with others. Another point that may be worth thinking about is something that Frisian said about squares not becoming trines and so on. I am in agreement that squares do not become trines etc in the way they are spoken of today; whoever coined those phrases needs a good kick in the pants. It sounds like the sort of thing Rudhyar, Leo or Liz Greene might have made when talking about secondary progressions. In modern times it seems that phrase has been taken on to mean by free will we can change squares into trines etc…This is nonsense, we can no more change our aspects any more than we can change the sign a natal planet is in. Of course, we can use awareness on the aspects we have to use them or react in a better way but to change them is just not possible, it is our cosmic finger print.

Now over to your chart, and hopefully straight to the point. You have a retrograde combust Mercury which is almost utterly dominated by a debilitated Saturn in Leo. So it would seem that you are easily susceptible to guilt used by others against you. The trine of Mercury to a debilitated Jupiter in your 7th is where the doorway is to use a guilt trip to get you to do something. You are good hearted, wanting to help others wherever you can, an even feel obliged to do so out of your wish to see the best in everyone, or in trying to see the best in any given situation. Unfortunately, many unscrupulous people will see that you can be a bit of a soft touch and use it to its fullest to milk you in any way they can. This is all very well if the wife wants to get you to do the decorating, but when it comes to friends and acquaintances there are times you may find yourself out of pocket, or looking like the guilty party.

What can you do to stop this? The worst thing to do would be to allow people to make you become paranoid and suspicious towards anyone who calls on you for a favour. This is unlikely anyway because it just would not be your nature to do that. Firstly, I am a great believer in ‘as ye sow, so shall ye reap’ though it sometimes takes a little while to come through. This is backed up in your chart, according to that you will be due and will receive some very good fortune as you get older. To judge when someone may be misleading you I would recommend examining the planetary periods, more on this in a minute. What you may find helpful is to set up a series of full Moon charts about a year in advance and look in them for certain months where deception looks ominous. If that should be making personal connections to the angles or personal planets in your natal chart you will have been partially warned.

The planetary periods will show repeating patterns. I am not just talking about transits or solar/lunar returns but the small, mean and great periods of each planet. For example, if you find that little misfortunes have a habit of happening in the summer, winter etc you may first look to the ingress for each of the year’s quarters. What you will be looking for is to identify the planet significating the event and being activated at these times. If you are able to find it, the next thing is to make a note of the periods of that particular planet. These periods I shall lay out in a table below, you should find these very interesting if you do not already know them.

Sun = 19 days; 19 months; 19 years: 69.5 days, months, years: 120 days; months; years.
Moon = 25 days; months; years: 66.5 days; months; years: 108 days; months; years.
Mercury = 20 days; months; years: 48 days; months; years: 76 days; months; years.
Venus = 8 days; months; years: 45 days; months; years: 82 days; months; years.
Mars = 15 days; months; years: 40.5 days; months; years: 66 days; months; years.
Jupiter = 12 days; months; years: 45.5 days; months; years: 79 days; months; years.
Saturn = 30 days; months; years: 43.5 days; months; years: 57 days; months; years.

If you put in the work you will find the pattern, then awareness should disband those who would be attracted to you at those times.


Good wishes


Bob

[jagetoile]

deleted post.

[flea]

F.

"can only write as I think...."

You painted a picture with words, the spiral that emanates ripples. I found it a beautiful image, and still thinking about what it means. And I am not sure that academia is great for poetry and unstructured creativity. I feel it ignores the intuitive far too mcuh. So you may well have an advatage there...

L&L
Flea

[starlink]

Thank you Bob for your explanations. I hope you are feeling better and out of bed by now! Very interesting what you wrote about the planetary periods, making full Moon charts for a year and looking at repeating patterns!

[Summery Joy]

Wow.. so many great replies that I don't know if mine will make a difference. I'll share anyway though.

It's sort of a theory of learning based on cadent houses. I wish I could remember where I first read it, but alas, Neptune has impaired my memory.

It's goes like this:

3rd house is basic learning, 6th house is what life throws at us, and 12th house is what we need to hide or hide from.

So...

What you get tought is ruled by the 3rd house. This goes beyond what you learned at school. It includes everything that learned subjectively; things that were told to you.

Getting put in situations where you need to use 3rd house learning is ruled by the 6th house. It's when you get tought is put in action. The 6th house throws life at you, and you use your 3rd house to deal with it.

After getting your own experience in the 6th house realm, you then start to create your own opinion about your 3rd house learning. You decide that some of it is good and you stick to it, and that some of it is bad and you modify it or change it altogether. Each 3rd house matter -tested by 6th house experience - leads to one of two directions; the 9th house or the 12th house.

In the 9th house, you've modified what you have learnt. You have personalized it, and you have new learning that re-shapes you. That is if the 3rd/6th mix was good or at least handable by you. If the 6th house experince was beyond you ability to cope with it, you throw it (usually along with the related 3rd house matter) in the 12th house, the trash can.

Because life is an endless circle, you will keep on receiving 3rd house learning your enitre life. Some of it will be totally new and will go through the cadent house cycle starting at the 3rd, while some of it might be an addition to a matter that you've already put in your 9th house treasure or 12th house garbage can giving it a new meaning and, possibly, a new place in the chart.

That's the theory as I understood it. I hope it adds to the great ideas that are already on this thread.

[Soul Friend]

Hi Radu and All who have taken interest in this thread,

I know it's been a while since this was started or even recently revisited but as a newer member thought I might weigh in. Much already has been said and it seems that the boundaries of the concern have been well fleshed out. My thoughts now go to solutions and how to process lessons indicated by points in the chart questioned at a point a native is ready to bring it up. Life Lessons are indeed represented by Saturn.

Aside from your personal issue as a problem, I think there is a wider spread situation that has allowed you to develop this trouble of repeating mistakes. It has become apparent to me as one who people watches and considers trend changes in society that we as a collective on the planet have lost touch with the value of processing death and hence loss. Modern advances led mankind to rail against the inevitable and fight death as an enemy instead of accepting it as a change in life. Today individuals torture themselves where a hundred years ago they moved forward more effectively. You and I share Saturn in the 8thH where discipline within the transformative process of processing changes can be facilitated when this energy is tapped into. I'm blessed to have mine in Pisces which easily spiritualizes my approach while yours has been noted to be debilitated in Leo. To me as an Astrologer who likes to tap into potential that just says look elsewhere so I did.

Your chart has Saturn, Pluto and its Mid-heaven cohorts and Neptune in a Kite Head awaiting activation as that sensitive point in Aries opposes your stellium from the 4th H. These can allow the strength of your 4th H psyche to find a pioneering move toward disciplined transformation(8th H Saturn) as your ideal self begins to manifest in your reputation as someone who has a fire in his life for living.

One thing this 8th H placement of Saturn has helped me learn is the value of memorializing lessons learned in death. As a person or condition dies we understand what was best about its effect on us and how we were influenced to not just act differently when around someone but we move toward a more permanent change living with a person's memory or a life lesson from a situation actively incorporated into our way of living. Acknowledge the mistakes you've made in the past. Pinpoint the alternative. Consider how life made you aware of them through people you may have hurt with your mistakes and honor them by making conscious thought toward new thinking instead of hoping you won't make a mistake again. Allowing things to fall in lock step with past habit patterns is only changed by pursuing new habits before life unfolds while it's too late.

Astrologically speaking you have the potential to follow this because you've got skills from Saturn as your guiding planet which is in Quintile to your Chart Ruler of Jupiter. This denotes a talent you should explore because eventually it may aid you in service to mankind or in your life work as Jupiter sits in your 6th H.

I know this is a late post but I think so much thought went into it by yourself and others that a new thought might revitalize your efforts ad hopefully give you the sense of equipping you to find a new approach.

Take Care & Be Blessed!!! Ciao!

~Soul Friend
~~~Rick

[starlink]

Most interesting Rick! I'll keep this one in mind as I find this view very eyeopening and worthwhile looking into. Thanks for your contribution.

[Soul Friend]

Originally Posted by starlink

Most interesting Rick! I'll keep this one in mind as I find this view very eyeopening and worthwhile looking into. Thanks for your contribution.

I'm very glad it was found helpful but I was actually citing several different ideas. Whichever you found helpful I'd be most intrigued to discuss further. Too, I'm always open to pm messages. Astrology is a great joy for me and I love exploring charts because the more I see it seems to open my soul to deeper understanding. I've practiced over 25 yrs and it still stokes my fire with excitement.

Cheerfully ,

~Soul Friend
~~~Rick

[starlink]

Hello Rick,
What I found interesting is the way you seek the solution to the recurrent mistakes (Saturn quintile ruler) and how to go about it, the 4th-8th connection about the psyche pioneering towards transformation. Actually the whole way of how you put things I found interesting. Mosts people in this thread write down what they see as possible reasons for the problem but few look for a solution. You tried to give us one and I happen to like it. I also have been in the Astrological field for the past 26 years and like you, am still totally fascinated by it, most subjects at least (horary,solar arc to name a few). Cheers, Star.

[Soul Friend]

Hi Starlink,

I think all the fascinating posts and threads here get me overwhelmed with mental stimulation sometimes so much that I neglect to go back and check posts. It's so good to find someone else who likes the approach of looking to the stars to get a hold of adapting to possible changes to allow ourselves and our Character to grow instead of surrendering to a fated "Destiny". I still think "Character is Destiny" and it can be groomed if we try.

BTW, Did you engineer those hybrids or did the flowers in your pics actually grow that way naturally?

With L & L,

~Soul Friend
~~~Rick