I'm new at this - some questions about chiron and midheaven

[Quite an Aquarius]

Hi everyone. I've always been pretty skeptical of astrology, but for the last year I've been suffering from some health problems and general setbacks in life. In my search for advice I came across a website that gave me a birthchart reading, and I was surprised by how acurate it was. Since then, I've done some more online research and have become quite interested in the subject. Anyway, I have a few questions about aspect configurations in my chart, and was wondering in anyone could help me out - this certainly seems like a place where people are enthusiastic about this sort of thing!

Firstly, are the ascendant and midheaven included in aspect configurations? If so, I think i have two T-squares: Uranus opposite MC, both square moon; and neptune opposite MC, both square moon. What would be the significance of these?

Also, I think I have two Grand Trines: Sun - Moon - chiron and Mercury - Moon - Chiron, but I'm not really sure what the significance of Chiron is.

Finally, is there anything significant about having so many planets in my fifth house in Aquarius? I feel like understanding that could help me reach some potentials I haven't quite been fulfilling recently.

Well, I hope I didn't go on about myself too much! I'm not really sure what the etiquette is for this sort of thing. My chart is attached.

[Quite an Aquarius]

Can anyone help me out?

[astro.teacher]

Sure!

Firstly, are the ascendant and midheaven included in aspect configurations?

Yes. Planets aspected to the Ascendant and MC are important indicators of things in your life.

If so, I think i have two T-squares: Uranus opposite MC, both square moon; and neptune opposite MC, both square moon. What would be the significance of these?

I dont use the outer Planets because all of this can be read within the 5 and 2 luminaries. No need for them.

Also, I think I have two Grand Trines: Sun - Moon - chiron and Mercury - Moon - Chiron, but I'm not really sure what the significance of Chiron is.

While I also dont consider Chiron, trines are considered "perfect love" between two Planets. They agree at a distance because they are in good view of each other. Things are peaceful between them. So take the Significations of the Sun in his placement and that of the Moon and mix them together.

Finally, is there anything significant about having so many planets in my fifth house in Aquarius? I feel like understanding that could help me reach some potentials I haven't quite been fulfilling recently.

A lot of Planets traditionally indicates "a lot" of something that is represented by the House, you will most likely have a lot of Children, a lot of romantic partners & etc if the planets placed there agree.

Hope that helps!

[Sag Moon]

AT
I have to disagree with your outlook on Chiron as I had a transformative experience when it was conjunct my mercury and it is at the same place as his in my natal chart.

Mine is trine asc. exact and Sextile Jupiter 7th cusp .

It completes many chart configurations in some very famous people I have looked at. It's the only asteriod I use and it should not be considered your run of the mill piece of rock orbiting space IMO.

I guess you have to have it well placed and in aspect to points.

If you are still checking this please place you Birth Info in this thread so I can input it into my system as that will help me to better analyse the configuration and degrees you have .

[astro.teacher]

AT
I have to disagree with your outlook on Chiron as I had a transformative experience when it was conjunct my mercury and it is at the same place as his in my natal chart.

I thought transformation was ruled by Pluto? (Modernly speaking). Its also wise when trying to verify new additions to astrology that you dont look in your own chart for these things. You will always be bias. If someone tells you "Thismeans you will be a millionaire!" and you see it in your chart, you will believe it as much as you want to be neutral.

It completes many chart configurations in some very famous people I have looked at.

How exactly can you be sure that their fame did not come from other sources? The Sun, Jupiter and Part of Fortune have always been linked to fame and fortune and success. There are MANY indicators in a chart that can indicate rising above base conditions. People add such asteroids and Planets because they believe that the interpretations "end" at the basics. People want to see something "special" in their chart(which is quite difficult through modern Astrology) and if they dont they add more and more until eventually it appears. The 5 Planets and 2 Luminaries can show every single aspect of life in your chart, you just need to learn what to look for and where. A good Astrologer only needs those Planets to describe every single event in a persons life from thier birth to their death (I mean to the minute or second in some cases).

[Sag Moon]

AT
I thought transformation was ruled by Pluto? (Modernly speaking). Its also wise when trying to verify new additions to astrology that you dont look in your own chart for these things. You will always be bias. If someone tells you "Thismeans you will be a millionaire!" and you see it in your chart, you will believe it as much as you want to be neutral.
I am not saying that it was the only factor in the Transformative Experience. The Christians call it saved and there are other names for it. It is a mystical experience to say the least. One moment your purged it seems and see everything through a different perspective.

I have done research into Bill Wilson ,founder of AA, and when he had his and I would like to see when Thomas Merton’s was next. Pluto is a different type of change, but can be a factor in many peoples cases. The first quadrant and first house is highlighted and Neptune or planets are involved. Many people do not give Neptune it’s proper place either for it’s transformative quality either in such a case. Neptune rules mysticism ,but you I can tell have never experienced that effect from the planet. It rules religious transformation also I bet.

Look at notables also. There are charts for Mohammed, Buddha, Christ, Padre Pio, Yogananda, the Dali Lama or any of the enlightened to see how it worked in their lives.

The only Planet that was above the horizon when mine happened was Chiron on my Mercury ,exact.

So are we to dismiss the discoveries of the Outer planets also?. Did they not exist before they were discovered? We may as well go back to the traditional planets. Every period has discovery. Many astrologers did not know the effects when K-Chiron was discovered and much has been written and researched as to it’s effect.
If my memory serves me then Pluto and Chiron were both predicted before their finding.

You do not choose to believe that there are other variables that can be factored in that is fine. There are those that are more sensitive to these other bodies I believe, but I even do not include the others as that would be drowning in the cosmic soup for myself.
I would not dismiss them though if others are in tune to them I’ll take in their perspective and try to eval if it’s right for my interpretation.

What you are calling for is prediction which is a different matter as far as your analogy of the Millionaire. You can only go so far as to be predictive.
We can see an event or period is coming where change shall take place ,but what that change shall be is up to conjecture using astrology.
If you have the gift of Prophecy than that is your gift .I have it at times through the use of my Pluto trine Jupiter.
I might have the gift to heal also Pluto opposite K. This is a complex subject and a very personal one. I guess that the likes of Cayce who fought against critics all his life should be dismissed.
His vision’s where ,like Nostradamus, not always realized for what they actually meant until after they had passed. That is the problem with prophecy in that what we believe is meant by the vision is not always what it comes out to mean in reality, but the correlation is there.
Prophesy is the leading up of events to a definitive outcome based on the past in some cases. Then there are visions that just come from the heavens for no other reason then another source outside ourselves wish to reveal something. You probably look through the eyes of the analytical without the deep meaning that is more than just the subconscious workings.

You call yourself an Astrologer then please do not dismiss what others that are of your practice have witnessed to be true for themselves and others. My experience is different then yours. Who is right-both are I hope. We both just see things differently.
-
I agree there are many factors to the chart that will tie in to any experience. What I am trying to convey to you and the poster is that his query is about K is, I am in tune to it’s effect or energy. That it is not just a piece of rock out there. Not that it was the only factor in my experience because when you look at that moment then you do see many factors happening. You see it in
In Bill W.’s chart also and when I find the data for Thomas Merton’s experience I know I will see a similar pattern will emerge. Is it going to be the same as mine of course not that was not the point ,but it seems you took it as such. Was K on my Mercury ,yes it was. Is K trine my Asc. Same as the posters ,yes it is. Will we use it’s energy the same and have the same expereince’s of course not. I just have been studying it’s factor in mine and others life for awhile now. While you may more adapt at just dealing with the accepted bodies ,but that is up to you as I know other astrologers who do not use it also. Not because it means nothing to them though it is because they do not want to add other factors which might skew their thoughts when trying to read the chart. They are not in tune to it’s energy as yet also.
BTW no planets can be factored out when a critical time or event occurs in the individuals life. We do not throw any planet out of the event. If we did the event would not be fully accounted for using what we have for tools.

In my experience:
Pluto is not the only body that was at work when change occurred. There are all the other planet’s to consider, right? Where there Pluto angular aspects going on in my chart when this event occurred, yes. But there was so many other things also. Venus had just went into the first house opposite Jupiter and it was the last of the known accepted planets to do so with K the body that we are talking about on my Mercury which is the first planet to rise before my Sun in the Natal chart. That was significant.

I take an opposite view to what you had said about not using your chart, in a way. If you cannot relate astrological events in your own life to get in tune with the bodies in the heavens for what they are saying to you how can you possibly do it for others? Using text books is just not enough and the psychological approach is not the correct format for everyday people. They are not psychological astute in the ways of Jung and his followers. People want to know the details as to the real life process of everyday living not a physiological teaching or reading if that is what your into.
I am not saying that it is not useful to use the tools of the great psychologist that just so happen to also have studied astrology,but for the common man it just is not that useful to them. I would love to see more Drs. And psychologist and psychiatrist would use this as an added tool.

I want to get in touch with the energy so as I understand it’s effect’s not just read the generic terminology from a book. That is no good for the everyday person, it is not what they want to know or get from a reading. I look at the heavens as fields of energy like magnets and those forces are either positive or negative energies. As an example take 2 magnets and play with their polarty.Do you feel how the forces feel different when adjusting the poles?
Well that is how I view the heavens. Know when those forces are attracting and repelling.
The only way I can make that determination is based on the study of my own experience. Then I can research to see how those forces played out in the notables lives. After that I can take that for understanding and council whoever asks for assistance.
You just so happen to go about it differently. Is your way wrong ,No! Is my way right ,I hope it is for me and how I apply my knowledge and experience for others.

It is not wrong not to believe K is a factor ,but I would not dismiss others that do so as they know it’s power.

This person has it trine his ascendant and is the cutting asteroid above the Horizon. He shall experience it’s effect and I certainly would tell him that when he feels it’s energy while it transits his ascendant and other critical areas that he should be aware that change will occur. Some people freak when K makes aspects to the sensitive points to their chart with other planetary factors happening. I would not want this person to find the awareness hard to accept.

For examples of how it might work in an Individual or how it works to complete a planetary pattern I would look at the charts of the following:
Lincoln, MacArthur, Hitler, Cayce, Napoleon, Patton, Chaplin,GW Bush

Good fortune to both of you!

[Quite an Aquarius]

Wow, an interesting debate I seem to have stepped into!

Sag Moon - Here's my birth info if you're still interested: January 29, 1986, 9:18pm in Mineola, NY

Interestingly, I have indeed had a transformative experience in my life - about 4 years ago, and I seem to be undergoing another of those experiences. The first time it happened it seemed like everything in my life was falling apart - friendships, schoolwork, activities, family life - but somehow everything fell into place and I became a much more positive and confident person in the end. I also seem to have the ability to change people for the better - my ex-gal came out of a fairly abusive relationship before I met her and had all sorts of confidence issues, but by the time we broke up she was like a totally different person - confident, happy, and at peace with herself, moreso than me.

[Sag Moon]

Well AQ-Looks like the lower bucket pattern has done work on you. Chiron will bring things into perspetive with lightning speed when it is active in the formation and trining the ascendant as it is for us.
If you have the dates to an of these events tell me as I have mine almost down to the minute.

Are you an introvert seeing that most all your planets are below the horizon? I am just wondering on that.

Anyway,let me load your chart and see what I can. I'll write it up in the next few days or sooner.

BTW the best way to have someone do a reading is not tell them anything. That way it tests their ability and you see how good they actually are at hitting the mark.

I'll be back!

[Sag Moon]

QAQ
Virgo Ascendant
Sun Aquarius
Libra Moon-at an Aires Pt.


I can see that Chiron plays a significant role in your chart. Having it placed in the 9th and trining Sn\Me\Vn\PoF in the 5th with those in aspect to the Mn 1st.

These are wide trines to the first ,but significant none the less.

Your planetary formation is a Bucket type where the planets take up half the zodiac.Yours is particularly special because they are all under the horizon. With Chiron added it make it a Cutting Asteriod which is the focal point in your chart.

Chiron Placement
GEMINI feels the impact of sibling rivalry. Difficulties and upsets during the school years lead to problems in self-expression that must be overcome. The mind is considered the reflector of the deep inner man. Mercury is the mirror or messenger, and this person can be very persuasive and draw attention easily to himself for his brilliance and ease of expression. Gives strong mental skills, easy despondency for early shortcomings and difficulties. May manifest as developmental challenges and strength of expression

9th has to do with the cultivation of the inner or spiritual side of life – meditation, hopeful planning and expansion, moral and religious aspirations. Gives an abundance of feeling and a sense of justice. Enjoys social contact and harmonious teamwork. Is kindhearted, outgoing, social and open-minded. It is the path of an independent spiritual seeker and gifted teacher.

AQ Sun you are the humanitarian wanting the best for others. Have a sharp mind and wit.

Virgo Ascendant I imagine you want everything in it's proper place and are very detailed in your work or else wish it to be.

Moon in Libra on the asc would give you an outlook of wanting balance in all your dealings .You wish for others to be fair and your life to run accordingly. You can be moody.
The Virgo ascendant would make you a stickler for detail.
Seeing that the sn\mn are at a 120Deg. trine aspect It is safe to say that your life is in harmony with conventional day to day activities which you encounter.

Everything I think focuses on the Saturn in the chart. You have a KITE formation when widening the orb to the Moon with the focal planet in the Kite being Saturn. Saturn is the otherside of the opposition from Chiron.

The Squares from Pluto to Sn\Me\Ve\PoF will be how you make your living I bet.You could do that through working in someway in the media seeing that you have Gemini on the MC if I have the degree there correct. Another aspect pointing to media is Ju BiQuntile to Moon on the ascendant.
Another active pursuit might be the arts or serving others in a medical capacity. Teaching might be something you could do.
The one thing that you lack in elements is Fire.You might need a push to get started in order to accomplish. You might be motivated by the value of Money having the square to the persoonal planets in the 5th from Pluto. It might be that a lack of fire in your case just might lack zeal for pursuits. You may just go with the flow.

I would watch any intake of drugs\Alcohol as that might get you into trouble.With Pluto about to hit the IC 4th there might be big change on the way also in your home\career life.Saturn is also going into the 4th by Solar Arc.So there will be changes on the way.

You shall be effected in the coming years more as having the Moon at an the Areis Point is more pronounced then it is for others.

This is just a rough view of what I see as I am not doing indepth research into your chart.

Chiron is a big factor seeing that it aspects both your Mn\Asc. and the stellum of planets in the 5th. It also opposes your Saturn.Neptune in the 4th on an angle should not be overlooked also. That will be a place you can get trapped at as far as dreaming or escapist tendencies. You can always transform that into hobbies such as art\music or it can be a spiritual retreat from the world.

Your chart ruler is in the 5th Combust Conjunct your Sun so you are very involved with your self image. Uranus in the 3rd denotes a very agile and quick mind with inventiveness to be used in whatever field you go into.

That's what I see! Any questions just ask.

[Quite an Aquarius]

Interesting analysis, Sag Moon, thanks! The people on this forum never fail to amaze me with their insights - you were spot on about several things. I am indeed quite an introvert, and need plenty of time on my own, lost in my own world, and examining myself. Not many people know very much about me. However, as you also pointed out, I do enjoy social contact, and while I don't have many close friends, I enjoy getting out and meeting new people, and sharing in activities with people with common interests. And I certainly don't have stage fright - I've acted in school plays and have played several instruments with various rock and jazz bands. It's actually often easier for me to get up in front of lots of people than meeting people in person. One of my friends once asked me, "How can you be so full of yourself, yet completely humble?" which I think is a pretty good description of me. I am quite moody.

I have been accused of being a neat freak, and I like to take my time and do things very carefully and accurately. My biggest problem in life is, like you said, that sometimes I lack initiative. I often prefer to dream, theorize, and chit chat, but tend not to act when I should, and unfortunately I made this mistake a lot during my first 2 1/2 years of university. I'm hoping to turn things around for my last year. Also like you said, I am a good communicator - I would like to be a writer as it allows me to express both my emotions and ideas, many of which I believe are quite original (there's the "full of myself part"!). I'm also good at coming up with ideas for useful things, so I would like to be an inventor of some sort as well. I'm at a point in my life where I'm really struggling to find a way to combine my interests.

My relationship with my last girlfriend turned out to be a pretty intense and transforming experience. I don't know if it coinsides with your experience. We met October 22, 2005 (evening sometime) and split December 15, 2006. The major experience before that, I think was June or July of 2002 and another in June or July the following year. August 18 2004 was also pretty big as I left for university that day.

thanks for your insights -- very interesting stuff!

[Quite an Aquarius]

Sorry to bring up my own topic again, but I was wondering if anyone had anything to say about my Moon - Uranus - MC and Moon - Neptune - MC T-squares? These are really the only hard aspects in my chart, aside from a pretty tough pluto, so I feel like many of my challenges revolve around them. I guess I would love to know how to make these work more positively for me. Thanks!

[Sag Moon]

Originally Posted by Quite an Aquarius

Sorry to bring up my own topic again, but I was wondering if anyone had anything to say about my Moon - Uranus - MC and Moon - Neptune - MC T-squares? These are really the only hard aspects in my chart, aside from a pretty tough pluto, so I feel like many of my challenges revolve around them. I guess I would love to know how to make these work more positively for me. Thanks!

QA
What you want to be aware of is the leg that is left open that complete's the formation.In your case the opposite angles of the square seeing they are angles they shall be activated when a major transit occurs to them.

So when an outer planet or Saturn and Jupiter make transits to the Descendant or 10th House it will complete the formation and you will see or feel the transit the most at those times.

I think the major angle shall be the 7th house cusp in your case the most seeing that all yyour planets are below the Horizon if I am looking at the right chart.You are the one with all the planets below the horizon if I remember correstly.

Don't discount transits to the 10th,but the major focus that I see is when planets oppose the Moon in your chart.

You shall have Pluto going into the 4th which should be felt in your domestic life the most coming up.

You'll always get an effect of the Outer planets meeting the angles and should be feeling some of it's effects now as they are ongoing with a bigger emergance of the energy when it finally makes it's way into the angular house.