Should I let Dave take me to my hometown?

[lillyjgc]

Hello everyone. I am having trouble with this question.
Chart data:
8th March 2007
18:17:27 hrs
Lat: 33.42S
150.23E
Placidus cusps
23.45Leo asc.


To give you some background...I am attending a high school reunion some 300 kilometres away. (on March 17th). Had been planning to go by train, but the timetable will be interrupted that weekend and I am going to a remote place. My ex-lover has offered to drive me there and continue on his way up the coast.He also has suggested he can pick me up from there on sunday and bring me back home. Sounds FABULOUS> Too good to be true even. The thing is, Dave has nocturnal seizures on a cyclic basis and is due to have one on THAT weekend (!). I am concerned about his ruler Saturn in the 12th house opposite Neptune in the 6th...The fact is, he and I have a mars/uranus opposition in our composite chart...I never go anywhere by car with dave if I can avoid it but this offer may be the only way I can go at all...so what do you think folks? Is it yea or nay????Thanks in anticipation. lillyjgc

[archergirl]

Hi lillyjgc, I'll give this a shot.

First, let me say that you should trust your instincts. You are uncomfortable enough with this situation that you need to cast a chart for it. You don't need a chart; you need to trust yourself!

For what it's worth, no significator in this chart is in especially good condition. Let's study the chart in a methodical manner.

Dave is actually on the angle; although he's placed in the 12th he's within the 5 degree orb of the cusp, which lends him a little more strength, if not dignity. He is also in the terms and face of Jupiter, the Greater Benefic. But he's still in detriment, still retrograde, and Lilly says that if any malefic is a significator, the querent should despair of any good coming of the question. Almost everything in the chart, apart from you, is disposited by either Saturn or Mars; both are malefics. Although there is no aspect between your significators, Jupiter translates the light between you from the 4th house; it rules the 4th and the 5th: home/childhood/roots (the class reunion maybe?) and the 5th of pleasure. He's an ex-lover, and you still have good feelings for one another. He is taking you to your hometown (4th) because it pleases him to do so (Jupiter).

You will need to decide which significator for the journey itself you will use; will it be the 3rd, or the 9th? In Australia, as in the part of America I grew up in, distances that many people view as huge are 'not so far': if I drove from Tucson to Phoenix it's about 115 miles (about 250 km). Some would consider this a long journey. I consider it a short journey, as it's only about 1 1/2 hours, or less the way I drive.

For me the Moon is especially troubling as it's in fall in Scorpio, but dignified by being in its own terms and face. I'm wondering why it's in the 2nd and not the 3rd or 9th as one would expect. Its next aspect is to Mars, by square, an aspect of difficulty and effort. Mars is the ruler of the 3rd so perhaps we can take this as an indicator of a 'shorter' journey (as opposed to one of thousands of miles!). Mars is placed in the 6th of health. That's your concern there.

Mars is also the ruler of the 8th. If we were to take Venus, ruler of the 9th as the significator of a longer journey, it is also in the 8th, disposited by Mars. Venus is peregrine in this chart, and badly placed. The 8th house is denied all light from the ascendant.

If we want to look at Dave's health, we look at his significators and then turn the chart.

Mercury on the DSC angle is separating from Saturn by opposition. I don't normally pay attention to the outer planets, but Neptune is *right there*. Saturn collects the light between Mercury and Neptune, bringing them back to him, although both are separating at this time.

According to the traditional texts, Mercury rules:
"All vertigos, lethargies or giddiness in the head, madness, either lightness, or any disease of the brain", another clear indication of your worries about a seizure. Neptune would emphasise this.

The Moon is the ruler of his 6th. The moon, as we said, is in bad shape. The Moon is also in the turned 8th house. The ruler of his 8th, Venus, is in your 8th. Venus is in a very close, applying trine to Saturn. Not very encouraging.

I am very reluctant to make predictions as I lack the necessary skill to do so with any confidence, but the chart clearly reflects your discomfort and worries about making the trip in this manner, and I would stress that you should TRUST yourself with this, whether anything would come of it or not.

Even if Dave doesn't have a seizure as predicted you would find the journey very stressful, and why would you want to risk it when you feel so sure that it may happen? If you want to go to this reunion badly enough, you will find a (safer) way to do so. It is better to arrive late and inconvenienced by altered timetables, than to potentially not arrive at all! I flew 6000 miles for my reunion, and it was well worth it!

Best of luck!
AG

[lillyjgc]

Thankyou very much.I have been having misgivings about the lack of aspect to the sun (me) except for the approaching square with jupiter (!).I took the 3rd house cusp to signify the trip- by car its a few hours, by train it will be about 10 hours all up...just got the timetable for the bus replacing trains- only one bus into town that day so may have to leave earlier (night before) to get there- it now becomes an epic trip over 3 maybe 4 days going by public transport..Thus Mars rules the trip- and it is again in the 6th house under the rulership of saturn (ie Dave), debilitated - retrograde and in the suns sign (me) -in the 12 house (will he end up in hospital as he usually does when he has epilepticus? My trip will be dependent on him as mars rules Dave and the trip itself, yes? Mercury, the natural ruler of short trips is conjunct dave- again in saturns sign but conjunct neptune...maybe he will have a seizure the night before we go and be unable to do the drive.. (separating aspect). Strangely everything has conspired against me going, but I have paid for it, bought a new dress, new haircut, new glasses and now the trains have stuffed up as well!!!Maybe I should cut my losses and cancel the hotel booking (before its too late..) Thanks archer girl...I try to trust myself but sometimes I sabotage my wishes by thinking its all too hard (saturn rising in my natal!) and had the chart been favourable Id have pushed myself to make a big effort to get there...I appreciate your very clear analysis.I will certainly let the forum know how this turned out...lillyjgc

[lillyjgc]

Another thought- I had previously constructed a chart in February asking if I should attend the reunion...(at the time my old dog was sick...) That chart was not particularly favourable as my ruler venus is again in the 6th house (with Uranus on the cusp ruling pets) in a separating trine from jupiter the ruler of the trip itself...a few planets in the 5th ruled by saturn posited in the 11th (friends, hopes and wishes) opposingMars in the 4th square the ascendant I read this chart as a No.As this was when I was planning to go by train I thought it was valid to ask the question regarding whether or not I should accept Daves offer. Perhaps for some reason I am just not meant to be there at all!

[archergirl]

Hi lillyjgc,

The impending square between the Sun and Jupiter is not really a worry: there is some exchange there by rulership, and all a square to Jupiter would do is amplify anything else. Jupiter's in good shape. Problem is, the rest of the chart isn't.

I guess the best I could say is to use your best judgment of the situation; you might find the trip worth the epic of getting there, but going with Dave, you might get more than you bargained for!

Best wishes,
AG

[eedwards]

Hello Lillyjgc,

The answer appears to be that you SHOULD NOT let Dave take you to your hometown.

The first hint comes the moon being in the Via Combusta. As I have stated in other posts, the Moon in Via Combusta comes up when the there are questions that concern illness, death, endings, etc..

I have used the Regiomontanus house which is normally used for Horary questions and also seems to work best for me. So, the houses are a little off from your chart which uses the Placidus houses.

I have chosen your 3rd house, (Scorpio), to represent your trip. This is because the 3rd house rules vehicles and trips and journeys inland. Your third house becomes Daves 9th on the turned chart which makes sense because you state that he is going to continue his travels further up the coast, hence becoming more of a "long distance" or 9th house matter.

Getting back to the Moon in Via Combusta. The moon is in your second house which becomes Daves 8th house of sickness, again pointing to illness or physical difficulties. It is also coming to square with Mars, (the trip). Mars finds joy in your 6th house. Turned, Daves 12th house of confinement, hospitals and self undoing. So, a Via Combusta Moon in Daves 8th house squaring Mars in his 12th definitely points to problems related to sickness, illness and unxpected events.

You, (Mercury), are besieged between Neptune and Pluto in your 6th house\Dave's 12th and in effect "stuck" unable to move either forward or backwards. Your 4th house, (the end of matters), contains Jupiter at home in Sagittarius. However, Jupiter also represents David, (Pisces on the 7th), and opposes the Mc which becomes Dave's 4th house on the turned chart. You Mc is conjunct the Arabic part of "Debilitated Bodies." The sun, your 12th\his 6th house ruler, also comes to square your Mc and Arabic Part. And last, the South node lies in your 1st house\his 7th, (you).

I would definitely tell you, no, SCREAM at you to avoid taking this trip with dave. All of the signs are pointing to accidents, health issue and confinement for both of you. Hopefully , your besiegement in the 6th will bring on a slight cold causing you to be stuck where you are just in case you change your mind

Take Care,
Ed

[lillyjgc]

Ed, thankyou for your wise analysis..I have now done 5 charts about this reunion.They ALL say no. No matter how I ask the question (or when). When I first received my invitation I constructed a chart..as the issues of how to get there cropped up I did charts to address the changing circumstances.They have ALL said no..always the moon is in bad shape and Saturn/ Neptune has been major. The Via combusta.. I thought it was between 15 deg Libra to 15 deg. scorpio...Can you set me straight here? At first the chart said <too early to ask> so 5 charts later I am getting a very strong NO to going. I have learnt a lot from this exercise..could that be the 3rd house matter turning into a 9th house matter? Even if I dont go I have gained something from the whole thing. Archergirl said TRUST YOURSELF.With my virgo moon I like to see my instincts borne out in some concrete context (like a chart) before I can make my sun libra decision! Thing is I WANT TO GO TO THE REUNION> But every chart says I will not/ cannot/ should not go. Who knows what will happen on march 17th. Because I do trust the chart process I believe chart 1 which gave the moons last aspect as a sextile to Plut in the 1st house..I would be OKay with how things panned out....? as far as pluto is concerned...Is it Ok to use pluto in horary? Or only when it is prominent or say to do with a sex or death question? I personally find pluto a big player ...but no matter which chart I look at on this reunion issue the answer is negative.So I guess Im not going.

[lillyjgc]

As a postscript if anyones (remotely) interested in seeing those charts I could post them later (when my daughter is home to help me do that process!!!)

[eedwards]

Hello Lillyjgc,

You are correct about the Moon in Via Combusta. Your moon resides at 4'56 Scorpio in regard to this question which is, as you stated, in Via Combusta.

I don't believe that my judgement of the chart stated that you will not go to your reunion. The question was posted as, "Should I let David take me to my Hometown?" My judgement was, "No, you should not."

You say that you cast five different charts and they all point to the negative. My question to you is, "Did you phrase the question correctly?" To clarify, my original response to your question would have been different if asked as, "Will I go to my hometown with David?"

I normally do not recast charts for the same question. What I try to do is "forget" the question and wait until I think about it again. It may come up in a conversation or otherwise. I document the time when I again TRULY want to know about the end result.

I am not sure if this post has helped, but I want to clarify the difference of one word, (e.g. should\will), can make in a horary chart.

Thanks again Lillyjgc, I am interested to see how things turn out. Please keep me updated with this thread if possible. I am very curious about the outcome.

Best Regards,
Ed

[lillyjgc]

My first horary question, when I first got my invitation to reunion was <Am I going to my hometown for the reunion?>. As the moon was early in Libra (1 degree) I took note of the chart as a whole but decided to leave the question as nothing had to be done straight away and it was <too early to tell>. When the time came to send my payment I cast a new horary <Am i going to my hometown for the reunion> (not wanting to waste my money if something was going to come up to prevent my going).This chart also returned a no answer, so I did not send any money at this stage. 14 days after I was supposed to have paid I sent a cheque. I received no reply to my email asking if I had left it too late to pay. I then set up an EVENT chart for the reunion itself. the moon was at 00 degrees pisces in this chart and exact on the seventh cusp.the asc was 2 degrees virgo and mercury was at the anaretic degree 29 degrees in the 6th house with a stellium ruled by saturn and opposed by saturn from the 12th. I wondered if the EVENT itself would be cancelled. By this time I had managed to overcome a number of other small impediments to me actually GETTING THERE!. When the amended transport timetable came out I could see getting there may again be the problem but Dave jumped in and offered to take me there...I did not say yes to this and asked him if i could think about that offer for a day or two (in which time I asked the question i posted here. I only tell you all this because this whole thing has been a long arduous process (sat has ruled most of the charts in question and retro at the moment and opposite neptune..suggesting this situation is not going to be quickly solved.) I came up with a new plan for getting there- ie splitting the journey by staying with my sister en route (dave out of the equation) and to my utter astonishment THIS chart <Should I spend next friday night with my sister en route the reunion?> NO AGAIN!!! By now I want to know why cant I go- what reason stops this- health of me, my children, dependents, pets all come into play. at the moment i am fit and well.I cant think of any other ways to get there having exhausted all my lateral problem solving brain cells trying to extract info from the charts.(!!)_ I agree with what you say re horary questions and their wording-I guess when I ask a <should> question i am using the chart to show me pitfalls and am really asking <Will it be for my best to say, undertake this journey, stay with my sister etc.>. I really appreciate your considerations and try to glean as much info out of a horary as possible...From chart 1 there have been major impediments to me going- maybe my family will be needing me elsewhere that weekend...or it will be a fizzle out and I will be glad I didnt go...only a week or so to find out what happened on this one- WILL keep the forum posted. lillyjgc

[blumen]

Originally Posted by lillyjgc

My first horary question, when I first got my invitation to reunion was <Am I going to my hometown for the reunion?>. As the moon was early in Libra (1 degree) I took note of the chart as a whole but decided to leave the question as nothing had to be done straight away and it was <too early to tell>.

Hold on, hold on. Could you post the very first chart you cast about the reunion? It does not matter if it is too "early" to tell. I have noticed how God willing many horaries work even if they're cast months in advance of the actual event. Also, the fact that the Moon was in the first degree of Libra didn't mean that it was too early to tell.

[lillyjgc]

I took mercury on the cusp of the third to signify the trip. I notice it is retrograde opposite a retrog saturn and in saturns sign.The moon (early in Venus sign) will sextile the asc and the ruler of asc. but retro merc is moving toward a conjunction with neptune opposite the ruler of the trip- saturn. whilst there are the trines formed by jupiter/saturn/venus, the debilitated sat. concerned me. fortuna in the 7th opposes my ruler jupiter in mercurys sign. Mars in the third house of short trips is also approaching an opposition with saturn and about to conjunct chiron. Only the eighth house is not intercepted. Maybe i have read it incorrectly, but i felt it said NO,also taking account of the fact that this event will occur on an eclipse...I welcome any insight. Cheers Lillyjgc

[lillyjgc]

Also the sun moving to conj. with uranus (the unexpected?) square the asc. i felt meant unexpected home matters might interfere...the sun/jupiter square was telling me I might be over extending myself in some way.....

UPDATE: It is Friday 16/03 . i have just had news that our <de facto> son, my sons best friend has just heard his father has died.He never met his father, but intended to...This is a grievous blow to him and my presence will be needed AT HOME to support our young friend at this time...(Is this the sun cj uranus square asc. at work??) lillyjgc

[blumen]

Originally Posted by lillyjgc

Hi. This is the first HORARY chart I did on the matter. previously I did an EVENT chart. thanks lillyjgc

If you did an event chart, then this is the chart one should look at. In all cases when it is possible to cast an event chart, the event chart has priority over the horary. However, later on tonight I will have a look at the horary and post my delineation.

cheers,

Blumen

[lillyjgc]

Having trouble transferring the event chart to this site....The data for the EVENT chart is as follows.....Date: 17/03/2007 Time: 18:00 local :07:00 GMT; Lat 32.24S, Long 151.46E. the asc on the chart is 2.27 Virgo....Lillyjgc
(thankyou for your interest...I think it possible to learn VERY much by studying charts as they are unfolding!

[blumen]

Here's the delineation

First, we choose the significators:

You - AC and its ruler, Jupiter
The trip - third house and its ruler, Saturn
The reunion - eleventh house an its ruler, Mercury. (The eleventh house is used for meetings, conferences, reunions etc.)

Then, we evaluate whether the chart describes the event or not.

In this case, the chart is descriptive of the event. The trip is ruled by rx Saturn. This lets me think that the trip involves "going back" to an old place. Interestingly, Saturn rules also the fourth house: your ancestral home.
The reunion is ruled by rx Mercury. Again, this trip entails a "going back" to see old friends and/or classmates. Mercury rules schoolmates and teenagers.

Given that the chart describes the event, we go on with the reading.
The elements we must consider are: the significators and the Moon their placement, their strenght, perfection or not. And also: aspects they receive from the malefics. If relevant, we consider also fixed stars, antiscia, degrees etc.

In any horary, the Moon describes the sequence of the events related to the question. In this chart, the Moon was in the first degrees of Libra: you just had begun organizing this trip. Perhaps, you had taken no concrete steps yet.
Indications given by the Moon are unfavourable. The Moon cannot perform. Because of the following reasons: it is afflicted (in the terms of Saturn) and slow of course. Also, it will apply an opposition to Venus - its dispositor.


A modern malefic - Pluto - is in the first house. A major change or disruption may occur with regards to this trip. Mars is in the third house, so this indication is reinforced.

The trip itself: Saturn. Saturn is retrograde and in detriment. Given its zodiacal condition, the planet cannot perform. Mercury is a bit stronger. It is in the domicile of Saturn. There is an opposition without mutual reception between retrograde Saturn and retrograde Mercury. The opposition is not perfect. This is enough to indicate that the trip will not take place.

Why? To try and understand this we take a look at the houses ruled by Saturn and at the planet afflicting Saturn. Saturn rules also your fourth house: something related to your family. Mercury opposes Saturn. As Mercury rules the eleventh house - then your friends must be involved too.

Also, notice how your significator is squared by the Sun and Uranus. These are not significators, however they point to something that God willing is bound to obstacle your travel plans.

Jupiter applies a trine to Saturn/the trip. Notice how detrimented Saturn is unable to perform. When planets are too weak and the event for which you cast the horary requires to undertake an action, to make a decision, then perfection does not mean a yes.

God willing, it was clear from the chart that this trip would not take place.

I'll delineate the event chart later on,

Blumen

[eedwards]

LillyJGC,

If you re-read my interpretation of the the chart that you posted you will see that it answered the question in detail.

The Moon in Via Combusta, Besiegemnet, etc., told us exactly what the outcome would be. I analysed the chart according to your last question asked. It gave us an accurate answer including the outcome of illness\health issues\confinement and\or death.

It is interesting to see the previous chart which validate the same answer...to a different question. Hmmm...apparently you truly were not meant to go.

I hope that all is well,
Ed

[lillyjgc]

Thanks Ed /Blumen and all who have shared in this matter. it is now the evening of said reunion...I am at home. Ed I want to tell you I also have been a bit unwell so you got that detail correct also. archergirl was right- follow my intuition which was what prompted me to question going in the first place. thanks guys (and girls)...that was a very informative journey ( a real 9th house trip actually!) and I feel I am in the right place tonight- home supporting my family....lillyjgc

[lillyjgc]

Ed (et al) Just heard from Dave to say indeed he DID have a seizure the night before we were scheduled to travel together!!!So it WOULD have been called off anyway!!!> Thanks for taking the time and interest here...but this chart has borne out SO ACCURATELY!!!!lillyjgc

[eedwards]

LillyJGC,

That's great, (that you are safe....not the seizure). This chart did indeed spell things out to the "T". I am sorry that you didn't make it to your reunion though. Hopefully, better things will follow.


Thanks,
Ed