Horrary Question

[astrofonder]

Dear Arian Maverick
I m creating a new thread as u said. My question was " Is India an most holy & spiritual country in the world as is said?" this is the chart. I dont know how make the chart. pls. try yourself.
Data: 4th march, 2007
Time 19:07 Ist
country India
Long. 74 52 east
Lat. 30 10 north

[archergirl]

I don't think any country that still uses child labour, where women have no rights to property or control over their own sexuality, and has a caste system where people get killed for trying to raise themselves out of the most abject poverty, could ever be considered the 'most holy and spiritual country in the world', ever. Not even if a chart says so. Just my opinion. Although it does have lovely food and music.

[Arian Maverick]

I think it's only fair that I at least create the horary chart despite your feelings about India...

Astrofonder, can you provide me with the name of your location instead of just the coordinates?

Arian Maverick

[astrofonder]

Originally Posted by archergirl

I don't think any country that still uses child labour, where women have no rights to property or control over their own sexuality, and has a caste system where people get killed for trying to raise themselves out of the most abject poverty, could ever be considered the 'most holy and spiritual country in the world', ever. Not even if a chart says so. Just my opinion. Although it does have lovely food and music.

dear archergirl
thanks for ur reply. spirituality is a diffrent part of our life. even a laboures child may be spiritual, & none stops him\her.a poorest poeple also may be .pls. ans. my que. by horrary chart. because chart never lies. india is the bigest source of spiritual books & experinced poeple in spirituality. i m not asking this que just for that i m indian.
regards
astrofonder

[astrofonder]

Originally Posted by Arian Maverick

I think it's only fair that I at least create the horary chart despite your feelings about India...

Astrofonder, can you provide me with the name of your location instead of just the coordinates?

Arian Maverick

Respected Arian Maverick

I m not asking this que.just for my feelings for india. Nor i think that india is most spiritual country. i m just asking cause most of people belive so. I want to know it thru a horray chart. Dont take it in onethor way.
my locality is Bhatinda (Punjab) long.74.58, lat. 30.10. India

[archergirl]

I have nothing against India at all. India has a fantastic history of spiritualism, there is no doubt about it: the Vedas, the Upanishads, the Sutras of Patanjali, etc.

I just don't think that the question is necessarily appropriate for horary. Lilly reminds us to not cast a chart for every trifling question, particularly questions where there is no great emotional investment in the outcome by the querent. Horary astrology is not the method to use for such things, IMO, but there are those who will try nonetheless and scratch around until they find an answer that suits the question.

[astrofonder]

Dear Archergirl
I didnt say that u r against India. I m fully agreed wat u had told about india.But I dont think there is no method to answering ques. like this.Let the astrologers try for it.It will be a good experince for us.

[archergirl]

Dear Astrofonder,

Some questions are not meant to be answered by means outside one's own heart and perception; assigning a specific reference ("spiritual") to a country of 1 billion very different human beings is one of them.

Since you want to know the answer to question, perhaps you should try to create and interpret the chart first? See what you come up with?

But I had forgotten, this site doesn't work that way. It's a magnet for everyone who wants to know everything about anything trifling under the sun, whether they should be an artist; what about that man who looked at them from across the street; are they an Indigo Child; what did their dog eat for breakfast; without attempting any of the study of the chart themselves, let alone understanding the purpose of their questions, and there are so many people who cannot discern between a good question and a not-so-good one, that someone is sure to try to answer.

Cheers.

[Arian Maverick]

Obviously, there is a reason why Radu has created the Spirituality and mysteries subboard and has actively encouraged readers of his site to submit questions that are challenging to answer using tradition horary methods--to possibly expand what we know of ancient techniques.

If you have issues with the forums, and I believe all of us including myself have had them from time to time, here is not the most appropriate place to bring up these issues, although I encourage you to do so on another thread. I also wish to remind everyone that personal attacks will never be condoned.

Since you want to know the answer to question, perhaps you should try to create and interpret the chart first? See what you come up with?

As astrofonder has clearly stated in his message, he does not know how to make the chart; therefore I will guide him to the thread Step by Step guide on -- How to insert an image here? -- in the Help with the forums and suggestions board.

But I had forgotten, this site doesn't work that way. It's a magnet for everyone who wants to know everything about anything trifling under the sun, whether they should be an artist; what about that man who looked at them from across the street; are they an Indigo Child; what did their dog eat for breakfast; without attempting any of the study of the chart themselves, let alone understanding the purpose of their questions, and there are so many people who cannot discern between a good question and a not-so-good one, that someone is sure to try to answer.

I can only assume that, although the wording of the question is general, you are specifically referring to me with the segments I have emphasized above. If you had aimed these comments at anyone other than myself, I would consider it my duty as moderator to alert Radu and issue a warning and possibly impose a temporary ban to the forums. I do not actively seek to engage myself in conflict, so despite the sudden inflammation of my Aries stellium upon reading the implications of your post, I will not take swift administrative action. Please feel free to send me a personal message if you have any further questions or complaints.

If I attempt to disregard the personal attack you have made against me, I admit that you raise some valid points about the uses to which horary astrology is applied. Again, depending upon which avenue to wish to pursue--forum improvement or a horary astrology debate--I would create a new thread in either Help with the forums and suggestions or the general Horary Astrology board.

Arian Maverick

[Arian Maverick]

Here is the horary chart:



Arian Maverick

[Arian Maverick]

This could also lead into an interesting but off-topic debate about exactly what freedoms American citizens possess that have not been corrupted by our government and if our society enables any individual, no matter how poor or unprivileged, to advance to a higher class. I have read a statistic that states 1% of the population owns something like 80% or 90% of the total wealth, and you cannot deny that money and power are inter-related. These problems are not limited to America alone, of course, but I greatly fear the direction our country is taking or even if our country will even exist should the elites wish to create a New World Order. No, each nation has its struggles, yet despite the economic and social success/failure a country displays to the world, we all inhabit the same planet. And I do not be such things are indications of the unique spirituality of a country's people...

Just something to think about

Arian Maverick

[archergirl]

It is true that India was treated very badly by the British colonizers, whose legacy can still be felt today. But many of the cultural traditions that I speak of: women's rights or lack of rights, and especially the caste system, are far, far older than the Raj, and cannot be blamed on the British. India has progressed very far, very fast, in terms of technological advancement. However, many of the ancient practices are still very much alive, and I have to say that they do nothing to bring India into the 21st century. You cannot have a country so filled with human rights abuses and easily label it 'holy and spiritual', unless you have a much different idea of what these two words mean. Killing Dalits for trying to better themselves doesn't seem very spiritual or holy to me.

A.M: you can keep your Aries stellium and I will keep my Aries moon and blunt Mercury/Uranus square. You are the moderator and make the decisions about what kind of stuff is allowed on the site. This site mostly seems to be a magnet for desperately sad individuals who seek nothing more than for someone to tell them who and how to be, instead of figuring it out on their own. It has its place in the world, I suppose, but one of the reasons I stopped coming to this site (and will stop again after this) is because it's less a forum for learning how to become an astrologer of any skill, and more a place for people to try to get free readings done by other people who lack either the experience or the spine to tell them 'no'.

I've had my say, I wish you luck, and shall not trouble you further as you must find me as irritating as I find parts of this site. You will note the VOC moon and highly debilitated significator of Lord 1 in the chart. 'Nuff said.

[Radu]

Hi

First, what I don't agree with is the way this question is phrased: "the most spiritual and holy". In my life I have tried different systems of spirituality and so far I have found no one which didn't claim that their system is the best. Obviously, the person asking this question is based in India and probably looks forward to be confirmed his own presumptions.
He sent me this question starting two weeks ago by email twice, once by SMS, once by private message, only to find it post it here again, set for March 4, as if it was the first time he thought about it. To me this is horary spam. This is not how horary works.
I have been extremely busy at work these last month and couldn't keep up with horary.
Besides, the whole idea of this question is wrong. John cannot be better than Rahul and Rahul cannot be better than Vladmir, as one human being cannot be better than another. So, Astrobhaudiria, give up this childish idea of your country being the most spiritual and holiest of all. It might be to you or some other people. But understand that spirituality is a very personal and subjective thing.

[Arian Maverick]

Ah, I did not realize that spam was involved and the question was asked before the date posted on the forum--this makes the chart invalid. I will remove it promptly.

I did not interpret the question as asking if India was somehow better than other countries, but I was wondering what the chart could accurately describe its spirituality, perhaps as confirmation to details that may be revealed in the chart of India. And since this question was originally posted in an improper forum, I encouraged astrofonder to create a new thread--I thought it was comparable in many ways to one posted on the main site, "Who was Jesus?", which asked if Jesus was the 'person' that Orthodox Christian religion claims to have been or not and if he was human in the highest octave. Again, one may have similarly been offended by this question, as each Christian religion has a different interpretation of Jesus and to confirm or deny that Jesus was correctly described by one religion may upset members of other denominations, as it can be interpreted as implying that only one religion is correct. Not to mention the non-Christian religions of the world who may not believe in Jesus at all or else interpret him differently, perhaps only as a prophet. I understand that I have gone off-topic somewhat here, yet I believe astrology should belong to everyone and thought it would be interesting to study a horary chart inquiring about the spirituality of India. I apologize for encouraging astrofonder to create a new thread, for as I mentioned earlier, I did not know the details Radu has shared.

Fortunately, Mercury will soon station and turn direct

Arian Maverick

[Themis]

Originally Posted by Arian Maverick

I apologize for encouraging astrofonder to create a new thread, for as I mentioned earlier, I did not know the details Radu has shared.

Arian Maverick

Arian, you are not the only one who did not know the background. i did not know that the question was repeatedly posted and i was in an eager to read the analysis. i followed this thread since the beginning because of its "spiritual" concerns. i know there is much to talk about as to the choice of significators in such questions. if Radu thinks that this person just seeks confirmation, i think he must have read the first chart 2 months ago. (maybe a very late ASC?) i think this experience reemphasised the importance of offering enough background for a horary question.

[virgo96019]

This is interesting, I wonder if this dilema shows in the chart. Saturn in h11, opp Neptune maybe? The ruler of the 11th is conj the asc in the 12th, I would have to say thats kinda fishy.

[astrofonder]

Dear Archergirl
My que.is not so bad & wastefull as ur given examples. Niether it was from outside of my heart. Arian Maverick who is more vise & better astrologer than us said that my que was good. He is ready to answer it. if u dont like this then ignore it & dont overreact.
By the way in horrary any que. querent asks from astrologer is caused of planetry position in zodiac. so how can u say one should not ask ques. like this on this site.

[astrofonder]

Hi
I didnt know radu had answred my que. bofore i replied to Archergirl last. First of all i thank Radu to give attention on this then i appoliogy to create horrary spam. Acutally i m new in horrary & i dont know the proper terms & conditons of horrary astrology. I m sorry again if there is anything wrong in my que.
Regards
Sandeep

[astrobhadauria]

Originally Posted by Radu

So, Astrobhaudiria, give up this childish idea of your country being the most spiritual and holiest of all. It might be to you or some other people. But understand that spirituality is a very personal and subjective thing.

Dear,
The average life of human like 120 Years,40 Years for making up,40 Years staying on top,and 40 years going to down.Child to youth,and youth to child,and old like a child.perhaps you understand my meaning,basically I want to express my more ideas to this forum,but I have not much education,I know only my regionally language is Hindi,and after reading English from the age of 48,there are not much knowledge about English,Kindly forgive me for any mistake in wording.I love this forum,and this forum making lives,for those who are unable to pay or unable to find,this forum giving path like a map.I am living in India and knowing more about India,there are more difference,media is strong at present time,claps required to hand,in past the effects of 3rd and fourth Saturn,destroyed the good communications,and also the mind of thinking and doing high,physical achievements are seeing and morality slowly going in dark.At present the Saturn is ruling on Government and in next from 7th July 2007,Saturn will rule to finance and service area of people,At present more Banks from out of counties are providing credits,everyone going to take credits from banks,everyone is feeling and maintaining loans,service class making loan on the service,student going to take loan on education,land lord loaning by land,and house lord loaning on house,90% vehicles are going on road by loan,that means in future,Banks will rule on India,and there are more and more dark is coming for the finance matters,everyone will forget,who is own,here are last time for the politic persons,and heavy dark is coming to the political line.

[astrofonder]

Dear Astrobhaduria
What u meant by 3rd & 4th saturn. & how Saturn will rule finance & public sector area from 7th july. ur interpetations are quite confused. These things have not any relation with my que. & as said by Mr.Radu my que. was horrary spam. so no more disscusion should be here on this subject. U should go on onether forum to tell things like this. Because it is horrary forum & ur ans. is not acording to horrary chart.

[archergirl]

My que.is not so bad & wastefull as ur given examples. Niether it was from outside of my heart.

Astrofonder, one of the first rules of horary, to a skilled horary practitioner, is to decide whether a question is valid *to interpret by horary*. This means that one has to consider what impact the question and answer have on the person asking. Your question may have come from the heart, but what impact, in truth, would having an answer make on your life, especially seeing as 'the most holy and spiritual etc' is a value judgment.

Arian Maverick who is more vise & better astrologer than us said that my que was good. He is ready to answer it.

There is no doubt that AM is very intelligent and skilled at many aspects of astrology. However, I would refer you to the first paragraph. Judging the validity of a question is a skill in itself. Just because someone runs a chart for a question, does not in fact make that question valid to interpret via horary. You would be better served to study mundane or natal astrology, and apply those principles to India's 'birth' chart, to find your possible answer.

Since I am here and am feeling less annoyed than I was, I will say that many people jump in to horary astrology thinking that it will provide them with all the answers to all their 'big' questions, and they start off asking questions that are way over their head or their skill level to answer. If you do not know or understand horary astrology, it is much better to start with a simple question, like 'Where did I lose my sunglasses?', and then *STUDY THE LITERATURE*. It appears that many people on astrology sites are happy to create charts, but have not heard of nor studied the works of Lilly, Bonatti, Morin, or the other masters of the art. How can you possibly answer a question well if you don't study the ideas of people who made a life of learning to answer questions? It is like trying to change an engine on a car without having a set of instructions in front of you. Try starting with changing a tyre; have the instructions in front of you while you do it.

If you, astrofonder, or anyone else who has attempted to answer your chart, have studied horary literature at all, you will realise that your question about India, no matter how heartfelt your intention, was simply not a good question to answer, neither the way it was asked, nor the question itself. Asking Radu several times also plays a very big part as it is unwise to ask the same question over and over again. There is a reason that Lilly wrote 'Considerations Before Judgment', and it would stand every horary student in VERY good stead, if they would go back and read the considerations, twice, before attempting to answer questions like this. Otherwise everyone gets in a muddle, and who can learn from that, especially since the answer is likely to be more confusing than the question?

Respectfully,
AG

[Arian Maverick]

Dear archergirl,

The user Draco was appointed as moderator to the Horary Astrology Board several months ago, and I will freely admit that he is much more gifted and experienced horary astrologer than I am. One will never hear me claim that I am "wise" or a "better astrologer" than anyone else, for I understand that my primary contribution to this community is the enthusiasm in which I approach organization and other forum matters--not so much in astrological contribution. I began studying astrology slightly less than two years ago, and I have not yet approached my eighteenth birthday. Perhaps I should more carefully look into the content and motivations of a horary question before I create and upload the chart to the forums, yet I am conflicted in that I aim to please and understand the frustrations of having no replies to a subject one deems important and not understanding why. Radu and I have attempted to initiate several projects, including an online school of astrology, which may have had some success, yet I do not know how many members are willing to pay the 100-day fee, although I am sure that Radu has found a competent and skilled astrologer.

Indeed, Radu created an announcement titled Guidelines for new threads some time ago, but obviously, it does not seem to be containing the sheer number of threads that make up the Horary Astrology Board. I've frankly run out of ideas, for forum content has always been a priority to me and if I had not had certain experiences when I first registered with the community, I may have left like I know many other once-active forum members have. The community is constantly changing, and the ratio of "newbies" to experienced astrologers is very much in favor of the "newbies." This is not necessarily a bad thing, for every amateur or professional astrologer must start somewhere, but it often becomes tiring answering the same questions over and over again in different forms. Ignoring such threads often makes me feel guilty, although time certainly does not permit me to even respond to basic questions which I may be able to answer. I have been trying to learn more horary astrology myself, and although I am sure I could memorize scores of definitions should I ever manage to create index cards, I seem to lack the interpretation ability, for it is not easily teachable. My South Node is in my sixth house in Virgo, possibly intercepted if the time on my birth certificate is accurate by three minutes and I indeed have an Aries Ascendant. I read books, I study terms, yet I have always struggled with applying the random tidbits of astrological information I know into a meaningful and coherent whole.

I could give more excuses, but Arians are primarily interested in action, and I am no exception. The Spring Equinox is approaching, and soon the Sun will be exalted in the sign it was at my birth. I am willing to work hard and make things happen, yet I need to know what to do--despite the Aries stellium, I find that I am often a more efficient worker than I am a leader, perhaps because I fear making mistakes. Do you have any suggestions that you could share with Radu and I? Of course, I am only his underling and he always makes the final decisions, but I am often part of the decision process.

Worker bees of the world, unite! :9:

Arian Maverick

[archergirl]

AM, bless you! Just when I am getting warmed up for a real scrap (I have a 1st house Mars along with that Aries moon ) we get to have a reasonable and peace-able conversation.

I apologize outright for my sometimes brutal bluntness and any offense I cause people (although sometimes they need it); patience is not my strong suit although I am usually far gentler in person. I do understand your predicament in terms of sheer numbers of people; and people are difficult beings to manage in any sensible way.

Horary is my great love, as far as astrology goes. I am rather fierce in trying to uphold what I feel to be the basic 'rules' of a complex and misunderstood system, which is why I continually bang on about reading Lilly, who most will agree is 'the best of the best of the best' for getting started with. I am still very much a student myself; I have tinkered with horaries for more than ten years and it's only been in the last four years that I have knuckled down and done some serious study, mostly on my own, with the help of websites and the horary astrologer I consulted before I was skilled enough to answer my own questions (Gary Price); he has been a brilliant unofficial teacher, much like Radu is. And still sometimes I can't make sense of my own charts; that's when I go for help from those who are even more skilled. But I don't make them do the work!

Suggestions? It's difficult on a site as big as this to have any that will work 100%. For horary questions, at least, the only way anyone can learn is to do; but to do, one has to have some basic knowledge. I understand your concern about the 'zero replies' threads (I feel the same way), but I also feel that, as with children, it is better to show them how to do something themselves, rather than do it for them. People should ultimately be responsible for themselves and for their horary questions, and need to learn to not plot a chart for every question that pops into their head while they're staring out the window, or ask a question every time they're feeling a little wobbly about the boyfriend; I think the ultimate moderator is one who uses their knowledge as a prod, rather than a crutch; to teach rather than to take over. Does that make sense? I enjoy doing charts for really good questions, where the querent has tried to make some sense of the chart but can't, and I try to read the chart in a way that enables the querent to learn something; with questions that are less ...um... pressing, I tend to just provide them the links to relevant texts, and let them do the work themselves. They'll never learn unless they give it a go first.

Anyway, that is well more than my thruppence worth.

Kind regards,
AG

[astrobhadauria]

Originally Posted by archergirl

Suggestions? It's difficult on a site as big as this to have any that will work 100%.AG

Dear,
Dear,
This world have pwower of words,if word has the power for the real time,and real time give proper informations,then every thing is posible,Horary is best to know the present and past situations,but has troubles,if there are difference of elements,and also if Mercury in 6th,8th,and 12th house.
God bless you always !!

[astrofonder]

Originally Posted by Radu

Hi

So, Astrobhaudiria, give up this childish idea of your country being the most spiritual and holiest of all. It might be to you or some other people. But understand that spirituality is a very personal and subjective thing.

Hi Mr . Radu
I respect u very much as u r a very vise man. But I m daring here being differ from ur view. There r many places in the world where we get fully piece of mind & feel as we r in lap of god or nature. India is the only country which more than 100 places like this. These places r god gift to India or created by nature itself. That’s why thousand of foreigners visit India every year only for this purpose & enjoy.
KASHI in India is only place in world where a person certainly gets salvation after death.
SRIGNAPUR in India where a famous Saturn temple located is only place where none can deceive other people neither anyone can steal anything from here. That’s why people live here don’t have doors & windows in their houses.
There r many other places which r full of miracles in India. Only India has so much vise literature that a man required for his spiritual journey. That’s why India has given thousand of prophet & saints like Jesus Christ. Divorce, suicide ratio is very low in India than European countries. India’s assc. Is Capricorn. So it is not a very beautiful country as European coun. but Saturn is also the significator of reclusion & salvation which is the main purpose of a human being after taking birth on this earth. There a many other facts but then it will be a very long message to read u .my English is very poor pls. adjust it with ur common sense. I m sorry if I m wrong in any view.
Respectfully
Sandeep bansal