Overcoming Challenging Aspects Using Solutions Found in the Natal Chart

[poyi]

Originally Posted by waybread

Poyi, Jupiter and Neptune are a good combination for the study of religion and mysticism. Jupiter deals more in conventional theology, and Neptune, with personal spirituality.

In my case, Jupiter and Neptune have no aspect, not even a minor aspect!! Jupiter owned Neptune by ruling the Sagittarius cusp and the 4th house, so therefore also became the ruler of 7th house Pisces, instead of Neptune.

Since you had mentioned about Jupiter & Neptune are good for studying religion and mysticism. I went on and did some researches.

Apparently, famous people like J.K. Rowling has Jupiter biQuintile Neptune, her talent of endless mystic dream and wrote them into books this talent also bought her great fortune!!

Personally, I have one Mercury Quintile AC, Venus Quintile Jupiter, Mars Quintile Uranus, Saturn biQuintile MC (I always fascinate about Quintile and biQuintile aspects; I know that they are important but not many understood them well)

Edgar Cayce (famous psychic) also had a trine, Ayn Rand quintile, Mother Teresa had a "Square"!!!

Here we go people! Embrace your SQUARE! Endless optimistic dream from Jupiter & Neptune tells me that everything can be positive if you know how to use this energy!

[poyi]

Originally Posted by miquar

Perhaps with the imagination, which is the realm of both Moon and Neptune.

But as you say semisextile is a minor aspect - a fragile connection.

When two planets are in close square they will activate some of the same midpoints, so maybe there are clues there too?

I am using whole sign here!

I tested the midpoint theory

For the Moon Square Pluto aspect....
The midpoint of the square is the midpoint of the Uranus conjunct Jupiter in the 4th house!

Moon in 5th, Pluto in 3rd and Uranus/Jupiter are in 4th.

I am thinking that is the expression of the tension between my mother and father in our household.

For the Venus Square Neptune....
The midpoint of this square is the midpoint of the Saturn and Sun conjunction in 3rd house!!
Venus in 2nd, Neptune in 4th....This one I don't know how to explain but Saturn and Sun both represent male figure. Maybe all the male in my life is going to bring me pain in life (I hope not!)

For the Mars Square Neptune....
The midpoint of this square is the EXACT location of the Pluto 0 11" in the 2nd house (SCREAMING!)

Now you see why I hate this STUPID Neptune so much....

[waybread]

Poyi, if a planet deposits another planet, they do have a relationship. If you look at house-cusp rulers, a good rule of thumb is "The House over which a planet rules serves the purposes of the house in which that planet stands."
(Karen Hamaker-Zondag, The House Connection.)

[poyi]

Originally Posted by waybread

Poyi, if a planet deposits another planet, they do have a relationship. If you look at house-cusp rulers, a good rule of thumb is "The House over which a planet rules serves the purposes of the house in which that planet stands."
(Karen Hamaker-Zondag, The House Connection.)

It is like:

It is easy for an astrologer to observe the signs and symptoms of the chart but difficult to make the final formal diagnosis (interpretation)!

Philosophy of the day

Po yi

[Carris]

Originally Posted by miquar

But sometimes it can work the other way. If someone does not understand why the same difficult dynamic keeps arising in their lives, then looking at in terms of this planet square that planet can have a very positive effect. The struggle is validated because it has a definite root in one's psyche. I've often heard friends say, after a visit to a doctor for tests, something like, "If one of the tests comes back positive at least I'll know what I'm dealing with - what is at the root of these symptoms. And then I'm in a better position to do something about them."



But one person will take on such messages at a very deep level, and another will brush them off. The difference is the difference in temperaments of the two people which was shown in their charts from the moment they were born, regardless of whether or not anyone actually cast that chart for them.

I take your point about the potential misuses of astrology though, definitely.

Yes that is true also. Knowing about these aspects was a relief and a load off my mind - that all these difficulties were not just my perception. But I guess my conscious, rational mind, my free will (i.e. my sun) does find it annoying how every little seemingly troublesome thing triggers off an extreme intense anguished emotional reaction (moon in scorpio) and my mercury immediately starts questioning "Why? Why is this happening? Is it the saturn venus? It must be that".

My practical sun in capricorn definitely does not like extremes in anything - so it tries to rationalize, "Is it really your hard aspects? But many other people have these same problems and much worse. Do they all have these same hard aspects? Why do you blame yours? Why are you using it as a crutch to feel self-pity and avoid taking responsibility for your thoughts and actions? Are you going to take steps to improve the situation or are you just going to sit around feeling sorry for yourself, fatalistic and trying to find something to blame."

So that is why I sometimes feel annoyed by these types of interpretations - because they get you in a rut of fatalistic thinking - at that point you can't think in terms of free will. You keep thinking in terms of karma and pre-determination rather than evolution of the soul, learning lessons and spiritual growth through exercising our free will.

This is one of my favorite quotes:
“You should check your vices while on earth. If you do not, you carry them over with you to another life. Only we can rid ourselves of the bad habits that we accumulate when we are in a physical state. If you choose to fight and not to rid yourself, then you will carry them over into another life. Only when you decide that you are strong enough to master the external problems, then you will no longer have them in your next life. " Many Lives Many Masters - Dr Brian Weiss

So how do I get rid of my bad habits and vices if I think fatalistically all the time? Astrology/astrologers should make it very clear that these aspects are only the lessons/syllabus/classes that we need to focus on in this lifetime - it is not our fate - it is the college program we are studying in and these planets are the professors that we have chosen to teach us these lessons - and that WE DEFINITELY WILL LEARN! Our sun (i.e. our free will, the conscious rational mind) will make sure of it - though it may require the square/opposition to give it a few swift kicks in the backside now and then.

For example, my main hard aspects requires me to learn about saturn (duty, responsibility, discipline, honoring promises, dealing with frustrations, time delays and endurance, "in sickness and in health", patience, ect) regarding venus (love, affection, relationships, peace, harmony, beauty, aesthetics, etc.). Probably in a previous life I was irresponsible regarding a love relationship - thus causing hurt to someone - and now I must learn to become more responsible - my soul needs this lesson in order to graduate (nirvana, enlightenment) from earth.

[miquar]

Originally Posted by poyi

For the Moon Square Pluto aspect....
The midpoint of the square is the midpoint of the Uranus conjunct Jupiter in the 4th house!

Moon in 5th, Pluto in 3rd and Uranus/Jupiter are in 4th.

I am thinking that is the expression of the tension between my mother and father in our household.

For the Venus Square Neptune....
The midpoint of this square is the midpoint of the Saturn and Sun conjunction in 3rd house!!
Venus in 2nd, Neptune in 4th....This one I don't know how to explain but Saturn and Sun both represent male figure. Maybe all the male in my life is going to bring me pain in life (I hope not!)

For the Mars Square Neptune....
The midpoint of this square is the EXACT location of the Pluto 0 11" in the 2nd house [FONT=Century Gothic][COLOR=Black](SCREAMING!)

Hi Poyi. It's difficult to work with the information in this form. If you feel inclined to put your chart up, then people might be able to say more about how the midpoints give outlets for the squares...

[miquar]

Originally Posted by Carris

My main hard aspects requires me to learn about saturn (duty, responsibility, discipline, honoring promises, dealing with frustrations, time delays and endurance, "in sickness and in health", patience, ect) regarding venus (love, affection, relationships, peace, harmony, beauty, aesthetics, etc.). Probably in a previous life I was irresponsible regarding a love relationship - thus causing hurt to someone - and now I must learn to become more responsible - my soul needs this lesson in order to graduate (nirvana, enlightenment) from earth.

Yes, this is quite possible, I guess. But I think that Saturn lends itself to a particular way of expressing ideas that isn't always conducive to us getting the best out of ourselves. Another way of approaching the Venus Saturn square might be:

"In this lifetime I offer to myself the gifts of inner harmony and the capacity to create and enjoy beauty as I relate to the world. In order to realise these gifts at the most profound level of my being, rather than merely at a superficial and ultimately unsatisfying level, I will need to undergo a particular process. The tranquillity at the end of this process depends upon a healthy sense of self-sufficiency. Therefore, as part of this process, I will need to become fully conscious of the limits and fears - the existential angst - inherent in life on the material plane, as it effects my experiences of self-worth and relationship. In being honest about my fears, rather than trying to avoid them through suppression and compensation, I am holding out my hands to receive this gift."

[poyi]

Originally Posted by miquar

Hi Poyi. It's difficult to work with the information in this form. If you feel inclined to put your chart up, then people might be able to say more about how the midpoints give outlets for the squares...

My charts are open to public under my profile.

Here you go!

astro_2gw_01_po_hw.23812.19091.jpg astro_245gw_01_po_201256.47158.17568.jpg

[miquar]

Hi poyi. Jupiter is about a degree and a half from your Moon Pluto midpoint, but Uranus is too far away. In other words, you have a configuration involving Moon, Jupiter and Pluto all in tense aspect to one another. But Jupiter could provide a release for the Moon Pluto square as there tends to be less sense of resistance in the semisquare and sesquiquadrate than with the square.

Actually, if your birth time is accurate, you also have Ascendant and Midheaven aspecting your Moon/Pluto midpoint, with Jupiter aspecting the Ascendant/Midheaven midpoint, as well as conjuncting the IC and squaring the Asc.

You don't have planets on your Venus/Neptune or your Mars/Neptune midpoints (using the 45 degree sort which picks up conjunction, opposition, square, semisquare and sesquiquadrate aspects). Having two midpoints in the same place may be important but its not something I use personally. I guess they will be triggered together by other people's planets and also transiting and progressed planets.

Perhaps learning and communicating on various levels is a valuable way for you to help to release the tensions in the squares. Mercury and Mars are in mutual reception, with a sextile between them. Mercury is also sextile the Moon. The trine between Moon and Mars, which could provide stability, can also flow through the Mercury since Mercury sextiles them both.

And then there's the Jupiter stuff mentioned above. So Perhaps Jupiter and Mercury are an area where you can channel your energy successfully. Sun and Mercury in 3rd house too, whether you use equal, whole sign, or a quadrant house system.

[poyi]

Originally Posted by miquar

Hi poyi. Jupiter is about a degree and a half from your Moon Pluto midpoint, but Uranus is too far away. In other words, you have a configuration involving Moon, Jupiter and Pluto all in tense aspect to one another. But Jupiter could provide a release for the Moon Pluto square as there tends to be less sense of resistance in the semisquare and sesquiquadrate than with the square.

Actually, if your birth time is accurate, you also have Ascendant and Midheaven aspecting your Moon/Pluto midpoint, with Jupiter aspecting the Ascendant/Midheaven midpoint, as well as conjuncting the IC and squaring the Asc.

You don't have planets on your Venus/Neptune or your Mars/Neptune midpoints (using the 45 degree sort which picks up conjunction, opposition, square, semisquare and sesquiquadrate aspects). Having two midpoints in the same place may be important but its not something I use personally. I guess they will be triggered together by other people's planets and also transiting and progressed planets.

Perhaps learning and communicating on various levels is a valuable way for you to help to release the tensions in the squares. Mercury and Mars are in mutual reception, with a sextile between them. Mercury is also sextile the Moon. The trine between Moon and Mars, which could provide stability, can also flow through the Mercury since Mercury sextiles them both.

And then there's the Jupiter stuff mentioned above. So Perhaps Jupiter and Mercury are an area where you can channel your energy successfully. Sun and Mercury in 3rd house too, whether you use equal, whole sign, or a quadrant house system.

You are very correct about this. The best way to heal myself is by talking about the issue with someone else (such as here) and analyzing the issue Mars+Mercury and a little bit of Jupiter just became perfect!

I have been looking at my chart, I suspected that there is "A Flow" of energy between all those 10 planets due to rulership and aspects.

Jupiter and Mercury, I always believe these two are the biggest Bosses in my chart. Although Mars seems to be very strong as well but the energy Fallen into Mercury and Jupiter himself is another independent figure in the chart.

Jupiter rules Neptune, Neptune is the only planet other than Moon square my Venus and Mars, because of the conjunction between Mars and Venus, the energy is united as "One". Then again due to the Mars exalts in Capricorn, Mars rules Moon, so as her energy but Then Mercury exalts in Virgo, so Mercury OWN the energy from Venus, Moon and Mars. If we use whole sign housing, Mercury owns everyone in that house, Pluto, Saturn and Sun. Pluto and Mercury might again have similar relationship as mutual reception.

This square from Neptune becomes the vessel of energy from Jupiter given to Mars and then again falls into Mercury. My teacher said all the "Weight" had fallen into this one particular planet, Mercury. He told me to study this planet in depth to understand the true me...

I always think Mercury is more important in my chart than Mars. Mars is only a tool of Mercury so as everyone else. But Jupiter is independent.

[miquar]

Originally Posted by poyi

My teacher said all the "Weight" had fallen into this one particular planet, Mercury. He told me to study this planet in depth to understand the true me...

I think that's an interesting way of looking at it. Looking at your chart, the Moon and Mars in earth contain the bundle of planets and perhaps this reflects a need to have some degree of control over your environment, since both Mars and the Moon are concerned with survival.

Mercury in Scorpio at the midpoint of the bundle can provide the urge to seek new experiences which prevent the earthy needs from bringing about stagnation. This will also help the Moon to deal with Pluto, which is also seeking new depths of experience, but in a way which feels more threatening to the Moon.

Mars is also conjunct Venus and square Neptune of course, so the need to bring beauty into the world influences the way in which Mars seeks to impose order on the world.

There seems to a theme repeating in lots of ways that involves the balancing of the earthy need for order and self-sufficiency with the watery willingness to allow chaos into life in order to experience the warmth of human contact and relationship.

But in some ways Jupiter is probably the strongest planet in your chart because it is angular, in its own sign, and on the ASC/MC midpoint. In terms of integration by aspect, Mercury is obviously very strong too, though.

[poyi]

Originally Posted by miquar

I think that's an interesting way of looking at it. Looking at your chart, the Moon and Mars in earth contain the bundle of planets and perhaps this reflects a need to have some degree of control over your environment, since both Mars and the Moon are concerned with survival.

Mercury in Scorpio at the midpoint of the bundle can provide the urge to seek new experiences which prevent the earthy needs from bringing about stagnation. This will also help the Moon to deal with Pluto, which is also seeking new depths of experience, but in a way which feels more threatening to the Moon.

Mars is also conjunct Venus and square Neptune of course, so the need to bring beauty into the world influences the way in which Mars seeks to impose order on the world.

There seems to a theme repeating in lots of ways that involves the balancing of the earthy need for order and self-sufficiency with the watery willingness to allow chaos into life in order to experience the warmth of human contact and relationship.

But in some ways Jupiter is probably the strongest planet in your chart because it is angular, in its own sign, and on the ASC/MC midpoint. In terms of integration by aspect, Mercury is obviously very strong too, though.

Thanks for the reading!

Whatever Mercury and Jupiter represent those qualities from both planets influence me greatly!

[Carris]

Originally Posted by StillOne

I have Saturn square Pluto in my chart. There aren't very many descriptions of this aspect online (I do have books at home but a lot of my posts are from work! Lol .)

One of the things I feel I need in my life is discipline and how sometimes I struggle with finding that.

I took a quick look around online and found this blog and I liked how it broke these particular planets into Excessive and Deficient in their natures. I think this helped put a perspective on how to readjust and as Carris mentioned earlier: Act.
source: http://skywriter.wordpress.com/2009/...h-that-aspect/

StillOne, read this:

"Let me emphasize here that though the soft aspects are indeed great gifts, it is often the hard aspects, in both birth charts and transits, that prove to be the most fruitful in a person's life, sometimes dramatically so...Also, as one works through the negative side of such an aspect, the psychic energy that is bound within that archetypal complex can be freed up to manifest in more creative, life-enhancing ways (e.g., the compulsive rigidity that can accompany hard Saturn-Pluto aspects can turn into sustained strength of purpose, and so forth)." http://www.gaiamind.org/AstroIntro.html

[deleted quote over 100 words against forum rules - Moderator]

Also, saturn squares pluto for a few months - so everyone born around your birthdate must have this same square. Jeanne Avery in her book says that hard aspects between saturn pluto indicate a fear/disgust/aversion of politics/power-play/control which comes from traumatic experiences in previous lives regarding extreme imbalances of power. http://books.google.co.in/books?id=s...page&q&f=false

[Carris]

Psychoanalyst Sigmund Freud noticed that his grandson would often play in his crib by throwing a top out of the crib and saying ‘fort’ (‘gone’ in German) and then puling it back by its string and saying ‘da’ (‘here’ in German). Freud analyzed this fort-da game as needing to experience a problem so as to have the satisfaction of finding a solution.

"...Fort-da is probably the shortest story we could invent: it is a story of the object lost and then found. However, even the most complicated narrations can be read as variants of this model: the model of classic narration consists of an expression whose initial balance is disturbed and then re-established. Every story progresses as a search for something lost. All tales are variants of one general theme which moves from one initial harmony towards descent into a disharmony which initiates a search that is the main motif of the progression of the story, ending with the restoration of harmony."

"Something must be lost or absent in any narrative for it to unfold; if everything stayed in place there would be no story to tell." I think this is what hard aspects are.

This means we cannot find answers, we cannot gain wisdom, we cannot have the satisfaction of finding our own unique solutions if we are not willing to face, experience, explore and immerse ourself completely in the problem. We learn best by experience rather than by theory. I guess that is why we are willing to incarnate on earth in the first place - even though it is so painful.

“There are different levels of learning, and we must learn some of them in the flesh. We must feel the pain. When you're in physical state in the flesh, you can feel pain; you can hurt. In spiritual form you do not feel pain, there is only happiness, a sense of well-being.” Many Lives Many Masters - Dr Brian Weiss

So I guess we must face our "hard" aspects fully - and completely feel/experience/analyze it in totality - so as to gain maximum wisdom out of it - by being driven to find a solution.

I think that some of best stories, movies, dramas, novels etc are those which have some puzzle or some struggle to be resolved. My favorite movie of all time is "The Shawshank Redemption" - I was so completely immersed in it that my heart stopped for a moment when it looked like the hero had hanged himself - and then knowing that he had actually escaped instead - caused the complete opposite reaction of elation. I actually found myself cheering. The movie was a real roller coaster ride in terms of emotions - is that why is it my favorite? No I think its because the hero wins in the end after going through so much. So maybe our hard aspects will be our favorite stories too - rather than our soft aspects.

[miquar]

Great post Carris.

Great film too. But when Morgan Freeman's character goes to the bedsit he sees that it is where another elderly person has hung himself earlier in the film - after being released from a long stay prison. He is thinking of doing the same, but then remembers that the hero has left him some money and told him where he'll be, so Morgan Freeman's character goes and joins him. That's why the writing is on the beam - the hero has never been to that place. But anyway brilliant film.

[StillOne]

Stephen Arroyo says of Squares and Oppositions in Astrology, Karma and Transformation:

In interpreting the birth chart karmically, all square and opposition aspects show the necessity of coming to terms with our own complexity, with somehow developing that awareness necessary to encompass markedly different approaches to life. The forces indicated in the square aspect are at cross-purposes and interfere with each other's expression. These forces therefore need to be harmonized within the individual, a process which usually takes years as the person slowly develops new behavior patterns and greater self-understanding.

The forces involved in the opposition aspect reveal opposite and yet complementary, pulls toward expression that the individual feels most immediately in relating to others. A need to harmonize these polarities is therefore also indicated in these aspects, but the opposition specifically emphasizes the need to develop more awareness of not only one's self but also of other people's desires, expectations, and points of view. The harmonization mentioned above can only occur through the development of a higher awareness of the forces and urges involved.

The eminent psychologist C.G. Jung, in his studies of alchemy, often quotes the ancient alchemist dictum: terbium non datur, which means that the third factor (which alone can resolve the problem of opposites and personal conflicts) is not given. Jung goes on the explain that a conflict is never resolved on the same level where it arises, but can be resolved only on a higher level, based on a higher perspective and level of consciousness. Hence the square and opposition aspects show the areas of greatest tension within ourselves but also - a fact which should be welcomed eagerly - the areas of greatest potential growth.

[Judy_AzVirgo]

Originally Posted by miquar

But one person will take on such messages at a very deep level, and another will brush them off. The difference is the difference in temperaments of the two people which was shown in their charts from the moment they were born, regardless of whether or not anyone actually cast that chart for them.

Agree. People live their charts based on overall temperament, and people manifest natal aspects at different levels from the very mundane to the spiritualized .... Level is so important!

[miquar]

Yes, we need to look to the chart to get the temperament, and then the individual to get the particulars, and also to understand the general level of consciousness.

[poyi]

The transits and progressive trends show how this native act or what the kind of weapons (in its own coming order) the universe/destiny gives to fight or the reverse how it also breaks the soul of this native.

The natal chart is the blueprint of a building how it is built? We look at the transit/progressive planets. A person can have the best inborn personiality IF the early beginning of life or any given time the transit/progressive planets putting enough Strain to Break, I still think that is where the variation of interpretation showed.

[miquar]

Its an interesting issue I think. Often a difficult looking chart, e.g. lots of potentially problematic squares, etc, will reflect an individual who is so full of tension that any challenging transiting or progressed aspect that comes along will trigger the release of that tension, and until the person is able to adjust to the demands made by this disposition.

However, some difficult looking charts belong to people who are much better at coping with difficult transits than people with 'easy' charts. The former have more grit and substance and know how to meet a challenge. The latter don't know how to meet difficult challenges because their world view has not encouraged them to develop this skill. As someone said earlier on this thread or possibly another thread recently: When the going gets tough, the tough get going.

[poyi]

Originally Posted by miquar

Its an interesting issue I think. Often a difficult looking chart, e.g. lots of potentially problematic squares, etc, will reflect an individual who is so full of tension that any challenging transiting or progressed aspect that comes along will trigger the release of that tension, and until the person is able to adjust to the demands made by this disposition.

However, some difficult looking charts belong to people who are much better at coping with difficult transits than people with 'easy' charts. The former have more grit and substance and know how to meet a challenge. The latter don't know how to meet difficult challenges because their world view has not encouraged them to develop this skill. As someone said earlier on this thread or possibly another thread recently: When the going gets tough, the tough get going.

You are very correct with that. I believe that the universe is very fair. It only challenges you when it had already given you weapons to fight back. I believe that everything happens in life for good reasons to encourage you to be the best of yourself and you do choose your own path here...the universe will give you the directions by changing your environment and Controls the timing factor to put events/people in orders to achieve the purposes.

[greybeard]

A useful and interesting thread here...

I'm an old man, and perhaps the perspective from the end of the trail might interest some of you...

We live as we must, according to the dictates of our individual horoscopes, and although we do have the power of choice, it is not such a powerful agent for personal change as we so often seem to imagine.

But what happens, over time, assuming our will and our vision are turned in that direction, is that our squares -- so difficult and often unmanageable at first -- gradually come under our conscious control due to the fruits of experience, due to our constant efforts to "polish the rough edges," due to our ever-growing consciousness -- which can only come through living itself.

Just keep walking and you'll get to your intended destination.

Don't be in such an inner tumult, fighting against yourself in order to improve yourself. Teach yourself to be at peace, to accept yourself as perfect at this very moment. Take joy in this moment of being alive. That's what my dogs showed me, and it seems to work.

[infinitenowhere]

Originally Posted by greybeard

A useful and interesting thread here...

I'm an old man, and perhaps the perspective from the end of the trail might interest some of you...

Don't be in such an inner tumult, fighting against yourself in order to improve yourself. Teach yourself to be at peace, to accept yourself as perfect at this very moment. Take joy in this moment of being alive. That's what my dogs showed me, and it seems to work.

Wise words.
Life is always fair always perfect and it all happens now. The end is just the beginning. It is also quite funny that dog spelled backwards is god. Dogs teach unconditional love to us.

[waybread]

Originally Posted by greybeard

Don't be in such an inner tumult, fighting against yourself in order to improve yourself. Teach yourself to be at peace, to accept yourself as perfect at this very moment. Take joy in this moment of being alive. That's what my dogs showed me, and it seems to work.

Agreed! Dogs also excel in unconditional love. They are always happy to see you, unlike a lot of co-workers, family members, and store clerks.

We should all wag our tails more often.

[Cascada]

Originally Posted by Carris

"While the opposition involves compatible elements, a square involves incompatible elements. This type of stress is a powerful impetus for action and change. A planet square another has a completely different agenda and direction, making compromise and resolution more difficult to attain than simply having awareness and acceptance. The way to come to terms with square relationships is to act. In fact, the huge amount of energy involved in the tension between two opposing and incompatible forces, needs to be expressed in forward action to prevent self-destructiveness. When utilized properly, these challenging planetary aspects can yield a strong will and character."

So with Uranus/Neptune in 5th house square to Jupiter/Sun in 3rd house (with Saturn trine Sun/Jupiter, making me more disciplined), the way I can resolve this is to take action on my dreams (since this is how I believe these aspects manifest with me)?