Intense attraction between straight and gay man...can you help?

[MaeMae]

i think this thrrad has been a good example of how astrologers, resonating to their own knowledge and styles, can come up with same conclusions.

[PD187540]

I completely agree with Dr. Farr that their entire situation is indicated by their composite chart. There's no doubt about that.

Originally Posted by sandstone

hi PD187540

you have me curious.. what would some of the astro signatures be that represent sexual orientation?

Time and time again, I've been noticing that Uranus and/or Neptune in the 8th and/or 12th Houses is a prognostic indicator of possible non-heterosexuality (with Saturn playing a questionable role). They provide a cause to analyze the chart further, and by that, I mean looking at specific houses with their cusp rulers being of utmost importance. If those cusp rulers are making explicit housal connections, REGARDLESS OF ASPECT TYPE, you definitely have a non-heterosexual chart...guaranteed.

I'll just clarify that this theory is an amended theory....I originally heard this from an astrologer via e-mail a few years ago. I forgot who sent me the email, since it was out of the blue, but truer words were never spoken in the history of astrological delineation (according to me, at least).

Her actual theory was this: "The presence of Saturn, Uranus, and/or Neptune in the 5th, 8th, and/or 12th Houses are dead ringers for homosexuality." I've amended that theory to some extent, and I personally don't believe that Saturn plays that big of a role in sexual orientation (as far as bisexuality and homosexuality are concerned). Uranus and Neptune have a MUCH greater influence than Saturn does with regard to that aspect of human nature.

As far as inner/outer planetary aspects are concerned, I don't put much stock into those aspects to SOLELY figure out a person's orientation. It's impossible (and quite stupid) to say that "oh, so-and-so is gay because he/she has a Venus trine/square/opposition Uranus aspect"). That's quite foolish....although I will say that if any of the "dead ringers" I stated above are indeed present in a person's chart, and you have some of those inner-outer aspects there as well, that just corroborates your astrodiagnosis for at least bisexuality.

I've gotten pretty darn good at picking out someone's sexuality in a chart. It's relatively easy to identify whether someone is or isn't heterosexual. However, it's quite difficult to state whether someone is bisexual or homosexual. I will admit that I've been wrong about making the distinction between those two orientation types, but I've never been wrong with regard to hetero vs. non-hetero.

[waybread]

I am very sceptical of horoscopic placements for same-sex orientations. Sometimes they work, and sometimes they don't.

Moreover, there's a bit of a bias here. Shouldn't we be looking for heterosexual signatures?

I think something like 10% of males in the US are gay. So the percentage of people with Uranus or Neptune in the 8th or 12th houses would probably be greater than 10%. Even if this figure is off, you should still expect to find a close correspondence between the astrological and the sociological data.

[PD187540]

Originally Posted by waybread

Moreover, there's a bit of a bias here. Shouldn't we be looking for heterosexual signatures?

I think something like 10% of males in the US are gay. So the percentage of people with Uranus or Neptune in the 8th or 12th houses would probably be greater than 10%. Even if this figure is off, you should still expect to find a close correspondence between the astrological and the sociological data.

No, I really wouldn't say there's any bias. It all depends on how you approach looking for sexual orientation in a chart. You can either go into it with the view of straight or not straight, or gay vs. non-gay. Take your pick. Either way, it's all the same in the end.

You're most likely right that the percentage of people with Uranus and/or Neptune in the 8th or 12th Houses is much greater than 10%. I would agree with you there because more than 10% of the population in the US is gay. Makes a lot of sense. The 10% statistic is rather old, and I'm absolutely sure that it wasn't based purely on honesty.

[sandstone]

hi PD187540

i see your ideas as conjecture and not much different from others ideas unless you have some statistical proof to back them up..

you state : " It's impossible (and quite stupid ) to say that "oh, so-and-so is gay because he/she has a Venus trine/square/opposition Uranus aspect"

but somehow it's not impossible and not quite stupid to say
:" "The presence of ...., Uranus, and/or Neptune in the 5th, 8th, and/or 12th Houses are dead ringers for homosexuality."?


think for a minute how many people this would include, putting aside the numerous house systems that would further complicate this theory which as you say, you've modified from someone else by removing saturn..

sorry ladies - brad pitt is gay, lol
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Pitt,_Brad

opps, 11th house by placidus, i guess he is still okay...

rock hudson
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Hudson,_Rock

he was gay, but he has neptune in the 11th by placidus, so it doesn't count..

jfk - gay, unless you can sneak that uranus into the 4th house, lol..
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Kennedy,_John_F.

i have uranus in the 8th by placidus and guess what -wink wink, lol..
i ain't gay, lol..

well, i guess you can see how crazy i think this idea is now that i have found out i am a closet homosexual and i just haven't figured it out yet.. it is in my chart, lol..

i just don't think you can find an astro signature for sexual orientation..

look how we are ruining maemaes comment?

[waybread]

My data come from the Gallup poll, a reliable source. What they found was that Americans believe the percentage of gays and lesbians is around 20% of the population, but actually when people are asked to report on their own sexual orientation, the figure is around 10%. This is consistent with the Kinsey Report that came out in 1948.

www.gallup.com/poll/6961/what-percentage-population-gay.aspx

[dr. farr]

In the 1st century AD, Dorotheus of Sidon outlined natal indications related (allegedly) to sexual preference likelihoods; I am not aware that any testing of these indications has ever been undertaken: you will find these indications of likelihood (and please note, LIKELIHOOD, ie, tendency, is the word, NOT definitie or "will be", just likelihood!) in "Carmen Astrologicum", available from several souces (including Amazon books and astroamerica.com)

No, I have NOT tested these indications out against natal charts (mainly because I am little interested in attempting to determine sexual preference trends or likelihoods), still, however, it might be worthwhile for someone to test those (alleged) indications against say 50 or 100 charts (where the sexual preference of the individual is known)...

[MaeMae]

proclivities for alternative sexual behaviors and activties can often be seen in what PD points out about ANY venus-mars-merc-uranus-neptune. It could show a predisposition toward sexuality that is expressed "outside the box." Doesn't mean a person is gay, or destined for same sex attractions.

[PD187540]

Agreed, MaeMae. Besides conducting my own personal, small-scale study regarding my above theory, I'd like to use a few hundred charts (maybe 200 or so) to confirm all of this.

[deleted attacking comment - Moderator] I'd rather like to take the charts of those people who already self-identify as bisexual or gay (with the resulting physical attraction that goes along with it), and then compare their charts to my astro dead ringers (with resulting aspects and 8th/12th house cusp rulers). That's how I'd approach my study, and it's definitely worthy enough to undertake.

I'm a scientific type of mind, and like any type of research a scientist conducts, you first come up with a problem statement. In this case, the problem is: "Could sexual orientation be seen in an astrological birth chart?" Then, you come up with a hypothesis. Now that I think of it, the "theory" I quoted previously is actually a hypothesis rather than a theory. It only becomes a theory once it has been tested, and that's the next step you have to perform....run a series of tests/experiments to confirm or debunk your hypothesis. The tests in my case would be looking for those astro signatures in a decent sample of self-identifying/known homosexuals/bisexuals (my best estimate would be 200 charts). All self-identifying heterosexual individuals will be taken to be the control group (no pun intended!)....200 charts should also be used for that group, too. So you have a total of 400 charts to work with and compare. After the tests have been run, you engage in statistical analysis to either prove or disprove your hypothesis. Finally, you come to your conclusion.

Now of course, you'll have your dissidents to my hypothesis (like sandstone) who will also be vehemently against any notion of being able to determine sexual orientation in the birth chart. To all those naysayers and vocal opponents, I treat them as astrological homophobes. Like with all homophobes, those types of people often have some sort of underlying, twisted psychology to them (Uranus in the 8th House could DEFINITELY indicate that...WINK WINK..."clicks tongue in cheek"), and I feel that THEY are the ones who need to be scrutinized and dissected the most. More often than not, those kinds of people often have some deep underlying secret or past trauma that causes them to lash out like that.

[MaeMae]

maybe what you're spotting in those charts is an orientation toward non-traditional sexual practices and" socially acceptable" desires and behaviors?
besides, if one could tell at birth a person's religion or skin color or sexual orientation, imagine what that kind of thing could create for genocide
it would be like the mark on the doors of jewish boys before exodus.

[PD187540]

Originally Posted by MaeMae

besides, if one could tell at birth a person's religion or skin color or sexual orientation, imagine what that kind of thing could create for genocide
it would be like the mark on the doors of jewish boys before exodus.

What sort of analogy is that? I don't see the logical progression between what I've discovered/continuing to discover and genocide or jewish boys.

I don't believe that a person's religion or skin color can be found in a natal chart. That's really ridiculous. I will forever maintain that sexual orientation can be found in there. I mean, think about it. There are SO MANY religions and shades of skin color out there amongst human beings. It would be next to impossible to narrow down the exact skin tone or religion of any human being via the natal chart. With regard to sexual orientation, I strongly believe that every single person's sexuality is fluid, and we all lie on a spectrum of sorts. However, there is always one predominant leaning, and yes, the natal chart can guide oneself into making a close-to-accurate (and sometimes, dead accurate) diagnosis as to where such a person lies on that spectrum. I mean c'mon...you have three choices with regard to physical attraction as it relates to human beings: men, women, or both. Just the fact that you're limited to 3 choices rather than hundreds of shades of skin color and religions speaks volumes in itself.

Perhaps there may be a whole new field called Astrogenetics...I always felt that the natal chart and the genetic code have very distinct similarities.

[waybread]

PD, one of the problems with statistical studies to date, is that they haven't born out any significant, let alone definitive, chart placement correlations to personality traits. You are probably familiar with the Gauquelin studies, but since they came out they have been widely criticized. However, they dealt with prominence in one's career, not sexual orientation.

As Dr. Farr noted, ancient astrologers did delve into these connections, but with methods that are a lot more intricate than a simple "Uranus in the 8th house."

Ptolmy (Tetrabiblos III:14, IV:5, 3rd century AD) is another example.

Earlier in the 20th century, Mars square Uranus was seen as a "gay" signature, but it doesn't always hold out. Stranger has Mars sextile Uranus.

[bubuza_dulce]

I am amazed that I have in my chart "the simple" Uranus in the 8th (on the cusp actually) and I seem to be gay so far

So thank you PD187540 for this clue, I'll pay attention to it in other charts as well.

My "friend" who is bisexual has neither of those aspects you mentioned but she has Aquarius Venus/Gemini Moon and I suppose it's enough for experimenting.

I'd like to discover myself to be bisexual some day because I imagine it's easier

[sandstone]

pd

[deleted response to attacking comment - Moderator]

the 5 and 8th houses do have a direct relation to sexual behaviour while the 12th is often treated like a bit of a garbage dump for facets of human nature not so easily understood.. there is nothing wrong with the hypothesis, but that is all it is.. a similar hypothesis connecting 2 planets considered to have direct bearing on one's sexuality - venus and mars - with the outers by thinking aspects, could just as easily have validity too... to describe this approach as "impossible or quite stupid" seem more a reflection of your attitude then anything to do with the astrology.. your thinking appears to suggest houses matter, but aspects don't.. perhaps you'd like to clarify..

i maintain you can't see sexual orientation in a chart...planets can operate very differently in a chart for any number of reasons.. to emphasize a house position of planets while discounting aspect relationships doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but doing a statistical analysis for the greater astrology community would be a worthy task.. if i knew someone with sun ruling the 8th while in square to neptune for example, i would consider this another valid way to make a connection using houses and aspects and one i won't want to discount in terms of understanding a persons sexual orientation.. for me houses count, but so do aspect relationships..

[PD187540]

Originally Posted by bubuza_dulce

I am amazed that I have in my chart "the simple" Uranus in the 8th (on the cusp actually) and I seem to be gay so far

So thank you PD187540 for this clue, I'll pay attention to it in other charts as well.

You're very welcome, Bubuza! Glad I can help and enlighten . The "simple" Uranus (which isn't so "simple") on the 8th House cusp (in Scorpio, no less!) isn't the only signature you have, though. Your 5th and 12th House cusp rulers are also HIGHLY indicative of it:

As I stressed before, the 12th and 8th Houses are very closely associated with bi/homosexuality (with the 5th house being of some relevance as well). The ruler of your Aquarius 12th House is...Uranus...right on that 8th House cusp in Scorpio. Bingo number one. Number two: The ruler of your 5th House in Cancer is the Moon....which is placed in the 12th House!!! You clearly have a 5th-8th-12th House connection going on (as do I), thereby corroborating my hypothesis. Your chart is an EXCELLENT example of finding sexual orientation in the birth chart....EXCELLENT (as is mine...details on how my chart shows it is available upon request).

As for your aspects, your 12th House moon aspects every single one of your outer planets...it trines your Uranus, specifically). Neptune and Pluto are also receiving a bunch of aspects as well.

Besides my Uranus/Neptune (potentially Saturn) being in the 8th/12th Houses hypothesis, you definitely have to include what the rulers of the 8th, 12th, and possibly 5th House are doing, and then see if they're connected amongst those houses. Brilliant stuff!

And now for our little dissident in the mix:

Originally Posted by sandstone

pd

no need to try to attack me with your homophobic parallels.. being a good judge of character on an internet forum anyway, is clearly not your forte...

Who really has the "forte" to judge anybody's character on the Internet, sandstone? You can't judge someone at all on the Internet since you're not gauging and humanly assessing their emotions to come up with any sort of real judgment of character. In fact, to even claim that someone can accurately judge another person's character based on Internet text is quite ludicrous. You may be able to judge if someone has interesting ideas, writes well, or presents logical conclusions and/or facts in the written word, but that's pretty much it. The person behind the text could be totally different than the person in person, so any judge of character based solely via the Internet has no validity whatsoever.

Originally Posted by sandstone

your thinking appears to suggest houses matter, but aspects don't.. perhaps you'd like to clarify..

I already did above. And let me also add that the TYPE of inner-outer aspects (square/trine/sextile/what-have-you...and this relates mostly to Moon/Venus with Uranus/Neptune/Pluto) has no real bearing on the sexual orientation itself. Rather, they deal with how an individual handles or deals with his/her sexual orientation. Determining THAT is actually a lot more difficult than determining sexual orientation. The aspects ALONE do not indicate sexual orientation at all. You need to take into account those dead ringer houses (8th and 12th, with the 5th having some sort of influence as well), along with their rulers' aspects and housal connections.

Originally Posted by sandstone

if i knew someone with sun ruling the 8th while in square to neptune for example, i would consider this another valid way to make a connection using houses and aspects and one i won't want to discount in terms of understanding a persons sexual orientation.. for me houses count, but so do aspect relationships..

That would be me. I've got the Sun ruling the 8th, which is IN the 8th (cusp of the 9th), squaring Neptune in the 12th (dead ringer, baby). What more proof do you want? I know that I'm onto something BIG with this, and it's the strongest astrological gut feeling I've had in centuries.

Originally Posted by sandstone

i maintain you can't see sexual orientation in a chart

You can maintain that all you want [deleted attacking comment - Moderator]. I let my hypothesis and the resulting analyses speak for themselves.

[dr. farr]

I would like to mention the researches of Vivian Robson, back in the earlier decades of the 20th century, and his still-available book, "The Astrology of Sex"-for further investigation into earlier (circa 1930's) thoughts about connections involving astrology and sex...

[PD187540]

Originally Posted by dr. farr

I would like to mention the researches of Vivian Robson, back in the earlier decades of the 20th century, and his still-available book, "The Astrology of Sex"-for further investigation into earlier (circa 1930's) thoughts about connections involving astrology and sex...

Dr. Farr, I think you mean "Astrology and Sex" by Vivian Robson. When I pulled up a description of that book using a generic Google search, the synopsis told me that it has more to do with synastry between men and women, and the influence of the 7th house. On the outset, it doesn't appear that Vivian's book tackled sexual orientation as a discrete entity.

[dr. farr]

Robson does mention in passing, what we today would refer to as sexual orientation. Other work (Carter, Cornell) during that period of time, such as Carter's "Encyclopedia of Psychological Astrology", has more specific information.
I myself possess a rather extensive paper on this subject, foriginating rom the old Southern California Astro-Medical Club (dated 1938) with numerous planetary and sign allocations regarding homosexuality, preferences for certain types of sexual activity, etc; perhaps if desired I will give an outline of the indications and allocations, from that paper.

[sandstone]

pd

i have given examples including a comment on my own chart where your's or someone else's hypothesis is wrong..i have also said upstream that if you want to make a statistical study of it and proceed to share the findings in the greater astro community, i am sure it would be welcomed... to refer to me as 'our little dissident' is inaccurate and unfriendly.. it is also an example of your inability to accept that there are and will be many examples where yours or someone elses's theory doesn't hold true..

[waybread]

Ironically, this isn't a thread about whether or how to detect sexual orientation in a horoscope. Stranger, a gay man who started this thread, has no 8th or 12th house planets. Next? Stranger asked a specific question about a specific relationship, and appears to be long gone.

We have some old threads on this forum about how to detect sexual orientation that could be retrieved, but they are no more decisive than this debate.

[Inconjunct]

Please don't retrieve them waybread - so many of them are so replete with homophobic assumptions, they are offensive in the extreme.

[PD187540]

Originally Posted by dr. farr

I myself possess a rather extensive paper on this subject, foriginating rom the old Southern California Astro-Medical Club (dated 1938) with numerous planetary and sign allocations regarding homosexuality, preferences for certain types of sexual activity, etc; perhaps if desired I will give an outline of the indications and allocations, from that paper.

Dr. Farr, I would love it if you could send me an outline (or the paper itself in PDF or MS Word format). I'm trying to scour the Internet for books on homosexuality and astrology. So far, I've only come up with two "keystone" books: "Homosexuality in the Horoscope" by Karl G. Heimsoth, and "Astrology and Homosexuality" by Wim van Dam.

Heimsoth's book was re-published (re-translated?) in the 1970s, but his work was originally written in 1928. I bought that book off Amazon, but then sent it back for a refund because I thought it was a bunch of nonsense. He basically treated homosexuality as a type of disease or pathology (which it clearly isn't). I can't blame him for thinking that, however, because this book was written pre-1930s (when homosexuality was being treated as an illness). Heimsoth also solely focused on Uranus as the "planet of homosexuality." He's dead wrong about that.

As far as Wim van Dam is concerned, I was only able to find this website about him: http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Dam,_Wim_Van
His book (which I've never read) contains plenty of gay/bisexual/transsexual charts. I would absolutely love to get a copy of that book and test my hypotheses out on all the charts in there. I bet that I'll find some very interesting results!

Also note in the website above that van Dam was "quick to declare his heterosexuality in the book." Either that's a Wikipedia typo or he blatantly lied. There is no shadow of a doubt that van Dam was indeed homosexual (of the closeted variety). Anybody who wants a very detailed description as to why that is from an astrological perspective should speak up now or forever hold their peace.

Here's another juicy web article to read about homosexuality in the horoscope: http://astrorevelations.blogspot.com...astrology.html It gives a nice background into the history behind all the mainstream astrologers who delved into this highly sensitive topic. Taking a quote from that site: "Perhaps one day these authors will enlighten us and tell us what these confirmatory factors are." Look no further! I fully intend on publishing a seminal work on non-heterosexuality in the horoscope (I prefer that phraseology the best), and I think the entire astrological community may be in for a rollercoaster of a ride! And if anyone else decides to publish any semblance of my hypotheses that I outlined above, I took screenshots of all my posts so that I can hit them with a mega lawsuit. I'm not playing games here ;-) I must get full or partial credit for the ideas IF somebody decides to publish anything.

[PD187540]

Originally Posted by waybread

Ironically, this isn't a thread about whether or how to detect sexual orientation in a horoscope. Stranger, a gay man who started this thread, has no 8th or 12th house planets. Next? .

What's next is that you can't even come to a conclusion as to whether "Stranger"'s or "Chris"'s charts are indeed accurate. If you remember from the beginning of the thread, the birth time of one or both of them was unknown. That makes a BIG difference, as you should know all too well.

For all we know, this entire thing could have been a ploy to start up the discussion on detecting sexual orientation in the birth chart. I'm very glad that Babuza seemed to come out of nowhere to thank me for providing him with some much-needed clarity. That was a nice treat, and it was my pleasure to make you feel more at ease with yourself, Babuza!

But yeah, what's funny is that even though one or both of the original birth times for Stranger and Chris was unknown, the composite chart showed two dead ringers in the 12th House . I'm going to treat that as a fluke only because the birth time(s) was/were unknown.

[wilsontc]

All,

Please stop with the personal attacks. Make your point, focus on the issues under discussion, and leave the persons out of it. You can't force someone to agree with you, so if you have nothing new to say, let it go. If personal attacks continue I will continue to delete them.

Back on subject,

Tim

[PD187540]

Tim, that was uncalled for. Why did you delete both my comments AND sandstones? I think that was entirely unnecessary, and you deleted a VERY crucial line of debate. I'm going to quote sandstone again here, and if you DARE to moderate this comment, you will be viewed in a very negative light. There is NO REASON to delete anything I say here, since I am in no way "out of line," and I am making a very logical and rational argument. To delete my comments here would automatically mean that you don't believe in reason or logic (or even the concept of debate).

The following quote by Astrologers' Community member Sandstone cannot go unchallenged as it stands here:

Originally Posted by sandstone

pd

i have given examples including a comment on my own chart where your's or someone else's hypothesis is wrong..

That is an entirely inaccurate statement. You have not proven my hypothesis wrong whatsoever, and the comment on your own chart is a very moot point because you don't have your chart showing anywhere on your public profile (and neither have you posted it in a forum post). Hence, that entire quote above from Sandstone is unfounded unless she provides her own chart with a subsequent analysis of it to ensue. Either way, she probably won't relinquish her chart because A) it might incriminate herself, or B) it actually follows my hypotheses, and I will use those same exact hypotheses to prove my point using her chart (that is, if she actually has completely grasped my hypotheses and used my rules on her own chart first, just to see for herself) .

I'm still wondering why I chose the field of medicine instead of law...